WEBVTT 00:00:07.649 --> 00:00:16.809 I've had some boo -boos, baby I've had the boo 00:00:16.809 --> 00:00:25.710 -boo blues Yeah, I've had some boo -boos, honey 00:00:25.710 --> 00:00:29.850 Alright Welcome back to Tell Me What Happened 00:00:29.920 --> 00:00:32.439 the podcast that features folks from all walks 00:00:32.439 --> 00:00:36.140 of life telling us one childhood experience and 00:00:36.140 --> 00:00:39.659 how that event impacted who they are today. I'm 00:00:39.659 --> 00:00:43.060 your host, Jay Rehack, and like you, I've had 00:00:43.060 --> 00:00:46.179 my share of childhood experiences that have impacted 00:00:46.179 --> 00:00:49.479 who I am today. Some of those experiences were 00:00:49.479 --> 00:00:52.520 quite painful, some were pleasurable, but I like 00:00:52.520 --> 00:00:54.820 to think that whatever happened to me back in 00:00:54.820 --> 00:00:58.320 the day has helped make me a better person. 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All right, 00:01:38.530 --> 00:01:41.010 today I have as my guest a good friend of mine, 00:01:41.090 --> 00:01:44.989 a man I've known for many years, Tom Clark. Tom 00:01:44.989 --> 00:01:47.409 is a volunteer with the Investigative Project 00:01:47.409 --> 00:01:50.599 on Race and Equity. A former co -host of the 00:01:50.599 --> 00:01:53.260 weekly Live from the Heartland radio show on 00:01:53.260 --> 00:01:58.120 Loyola's WLUW 88 .7 FM, he's also lectured on 00:01:58.120 --> 00:02:00.959 media and American culture in UIC's corporate 00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:04.079 MBA program, working with cohorts of Chinese 00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:06.900 health professionals. He served on the steering 00:02:06.900 --> 00:02:10.319 committee of Network 49, an independent political 00:02:10.319 --> 00:02:13.439 organization of the 49th Ward in Chicago's far 00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:15.620 north side Rogers Park neighborhood, where he 00:02:15.620 --> 00:02:17.900 and his family have resided for over 30 years. 00:02:18.060 --> 00:02:22.159 Lastly, for over 25 years, Tom was president 00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:24.659 and co -founder of the Community Media Workshop, 00:02:25.219 --> 00:02:27.300 now Public Narrative, where he helped journalists 00:02:27.300 --> 00:02:30.439 and hundreds of NGOs annually improve media coverage 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:34.020 of Chicago's neighborhoods. Welcome, Tom Clark. 00:02:34.340 --> 00:02:37.360 Tom, are you ready to tell your story? Good to 00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:39.909 see you, Jay. Yes, indeed. When I was in high 00:02:39.909 --> 00:02:42.069 school, I was part of Young Christian Students, 00:02:42.129 --> 00:02:44.930 which was a Catholic youth group that would engage 00:02:44.930 --> 00:02:47.949 in social issues at the time. And one of my dear 00:02:47.949 --> 00:02:50.449 friends, Roland Radford, is someone who didn't 00:02:50.449 --> 00:02:52.370 go on to college because he didn't have great 00:02:52.370 --> 00:02:54.750 grades, in part because he kept going south to 00:02:54.750 --> 00:02:56.789 Selma and other places for the civil rights movement. 00:02:57.370 --> 00:03:00.050 By the time we both entered college, he was signed 00:03:00.050 --> 00:03:03.250 up to be a Marine and I was at Loyola. Having 00:03:03.250 --> 00:03:05.370 left the seminary, decided to take advantage 00:03:05.370 --> 00:03:08.699 of their junior year abroad in Rome. And lo and 00:03:08.699 --> 00:03:12.740 behold, one Thanksgiving week, who shows up at 00:03:12.740 --> 00:03:16.419 the Rome campus? But my dear friend Roland. Roland 00:03:16.419 --> 00:03:19.819 had been sent home early from Vietnam after being 00:03:19.819 --> 00:03:22.960 the sole survivor of two patrols. And for several 00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:26.199 days celebrating his 21st birthday, he urged 00:03:26.199 --> 00:03:28.879 me to go home early from this country club, as 00:03:28.879 --> 00:03:31.860 he saw it, and use my influence to help stop 00:03:31.860 --> 00:03:34.719 the war. He felt as a Marine, he was limited 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:37.000 in what he would be able to do. But as a white 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:38.960 guy, I ought to be able to do a lot more than 00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:41.719 he could. Flash forward, I got very involved. 00:03:41.960 --> 00:03:43.979 I had been very involved with the Kent State 00:03:43.979 --> 00:03:46.840 strike at Loyola. And that group who went on 00:03:46.840 --> 00:03:49.780 to form a commune in Uptown is the group I kind 00:03:49.780 --> 00:03:52.960 of came back to when I left Rome. Found out that 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:56.120 they had been planning to do an action on a draft 00:03:56.120 --> 00:03:58.460 board in Evanston to try to prevent young men 00:03:58.460 --> 00:04:02.860 from being sent over to Vietnam. A totally immoral 00:04:02.860 --> 00:04:05.400 adventure by the U .S. government that many of 00:04:05.400 --> 00:04:07.740 us We're spending a lot of time trying to stop 00:04:07.740 --> 00:04:12.379 and end. In 1971, in April, we poured blood on 00:04:12.379 --> 00:04:15.419 500 1A draft file records at the Evans Selective 00:04:15.419 --> 00:04:18.740 Service Office and nine months later defended 00:04:18.740 --> 00:04:21.639 ourselves in federal court during a week long 00:04:21.639 --> 00:04:25.579 trial where we put the war on trial and the war 00:04:25.579 --> 00:04:29.519 lost. We ended up being acquitted on three of 00:04:29.519 --> 00:04:32.120 the four counts we've been charged with. The 00:04:32.120 --> 00:04:35.160 conspiracy count that we ended up being convicted 00:04:35.160 --> 00:04:38.459 of was later overturned, ironically, on a First 00:04:38.459 --> 00:04:42.399 Amendment basis because of how we had conducted 00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:45.699 our action in a nonviolent way. We had learned 00:04:45.699 --> 00:04:48.939 a lot from other Catholic Left actions that had 00:04:48.939 --> 00:04:50.959 been going on around the country, the most famous 00:04:50.959 --> 00:04:53.439 of which probably was the Berrigan Brothers in 00:04:53.439 --> 00:04:57.600 Cantonsville. We were part of a line of direct 00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:01.699 action civil disobedience folks who stayed around 00:05:02.089 --> 00:05:05.870 rather than hit and run, which was notably going 00:05:05.870 --> 00:05:08.490 on with other left groups trying to end the war 00:05:08.490 --> 00:05:10.970 at that time, particularly the Weather Underground. 00:05:11.670 --> 00:05:14.189 I mention them because, famously, Bill Ayers 00:05:14.189 --> 00:05:16.730 and I have had many public debates over the years 00:05:16.730 --> 00:05:19.290 about the efficacy of what the Weather Underground 00:05:19.290 --> 00:05:22.230 did, which I think was to terrorize Americans 00:05:22.230 --> 00:05:25.329 even more, versus what we tried to do, which 00:05:25.329 --> 00:05:28.959 was to act nonviolently. to produce an action 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:31.759 that would later resonate in a courtroom and 00:05:31.759 --> 00:05:35.300 would allow us to make effective arguments against 00:05:35.300 --> 00:05:38.100 the U .S. execution of that war. Three of the 00:05:38.100 --> 00:05:41.439 four of us defended ourselves, which was a legal 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:44.519 tactic that we learned about after the Chicago 00:05:44.519 --> 00:05:47.620 15 trial a couple of years before. It allowed 00:05:47.620 --> 00:05:50.720 us tremendous leeway in the way we prosecuted 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:54.569 the war. Yes, we were being prosecuted. But by 00:05:54.569 --> 00:05:57.029 the nature of the cross -examination we were 00:05:57.029 --> 00:05:58.990 able to do in the early stages of the trial, 00:05:59.449 --> 00:06:02.230 we were able to draw out a lot of the elements 00:06:02.230 --> 00:06:05.170 that we were trying to do. Later in the trial, 00:06:05.629 --> 00:06:07.769 our grandfatherly judge kind of cracked down 00:06:07.769 --> 00:06:10.509 a bit, and a lot of the other testimony that 00:06:10.509 --> 00:06:13.889 we were hoping to do using anti -war activists 00:06:13.889 --> 00:06:17.290 and others were scuttled. But we were able, through 00:06:17.290 --> 00:06:21.589 character witness testimony, establish the backgrounds 00:06:21.589 --> 00:06:25.149 that we had all engaged in. using parents and 00:06:25.149 --> 00:06:27.870 pastors in my case, as well as my friend Roland 00:06:27.870 --> 00:06:30.689 Radford in full Marine dress as our character 00:06:30.689 --> 00:06:34.470 witnesses. The jury made it clear in the media 00:06:34.470 --> 00:06:37.629 discussions following our trial that because 00:06:37.629 --> 00:06:40.689 we had acted non -violently, they felt that the 00:06:40.689 --> 00:06:43.709 actions, while maybe not justified, certainly 00:06:43.709 --> 00:06:47.230 did not amount to a violent disruption of the 00:06:47.230 --> 00:06:49.329 normal functioning of the Selective Service Office. 00:06:49.610 --> 00:06:51.589 And they acquitted us of the three substantive 00:06:51.589 --> 00:06:55.079 counts. that we had admitted in court. The months 00:06:55.079 --> 00:06:57.779 between the action and the trial involved a lot 00:06:57.779 --> 00:07:01.160 of community organizing in Evanston, street actions, 00:07:01.540 --> 00:07:04.540 a lot of time in Fountain Square, as well as 00:07:04.540 --> 00:07:06.759 engagement with churches and other institutions 00:07:06.759 --> 00:07:09.959 to build up a groundswell of support for our 00:07:09.959 --> 00:07:12.680 Defense Committee. I still remember famously 00:07:12.680 --> 00:07:15.360 a Night of Methodist Church evening featuring 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:18.269 Jane Kennedy. It was part of the Beaver 55 that 00:07:18.269 --> 00:07:22.069 erased napalm files in the Midland, Michigan, 00:07:22.329 --> 00:07:25.769 Dow Chemical Plant. It was emceed by Studs Terkel, 00:07:25.930 --> 00:07:28.269 who I'd grown up listening to and later became 00:07:28.269 --> 00:07:30.829 a mentor of our organization, Community Media 00:07:30.829 --> 00:07:34.389 Workshop. And in fact, we named a community media 00:07:34.389 --> 00:07:38.329 award after Studs. That evening brought 500 people 00:07:38.329 --> 00:07:42.550 into this church and was really a sign that we 00:07:42.550 --> 00:07:46.329 had touched a nerve. and that we would go forward 00:07:46.329 --> 00:07:48.490 with our trial with a lot of support. Indeed, 00:07:48.629 --> 00:07:51.370 we had a week -long evening session, teachings 00:07:51.370 --> 00:07:54.470 at Northwestern, that whole trial, bringing in 00:07:54.470 --> 00:07:57.389 experts like, oh, Noam Chomsky, Ekbal Ahmad, 00:07:57.569 --> 00:07:59.769 who was very involved with the Bangladesh crisis 00:07:59.769 --> 00:08:02.529 at the moment. We were trying to establish not 00:08:02.529 --> 00:08:05.490 just that the Vietnam War was immoral, but the 00:08:05.490 --> 00:08:09.610 U .S. foreign policy had a lot that had... a 00:08:09.610 --> 00:08:11.670 lot had to change in the way that we approach 00:08:11.670 --> 00:08:14.449 the world. The Bangladesh crisis at the time 00:08:14.449 --> 00:08:18.209 being one example of that. Most of us were involved 00:08:18.209 --> 00:08:21.689 in community living at that time, primarily in 00:08:21.689 --> 00:08:25.370 Uptown, later in Rogers Park. That kind of community, 00:08:25.370 --> 00:08:28.129 I think, gave us some strength and power, along 00:08:28.129 --> 00:08:30.730 with a whole slew of unindicted co -conspirators 00:08:30.730 --> 00:08:34.049 that actually made this whole action more successful. 00:08:34.279 --> 00:08:37.059 One quick example during the action, while we 00:08:37.059 --> 00:08:39.500 waited for police to show up, we had to tell 00:08:39.500 --> 00:08:42.360 the clerk how to call the police and assured 00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:45.220 her we would wait to be arrested. I made a critical 00:08:45.220 --> 00:08:49.440 call to a contact, which then kicked off another 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:51.980 whole series of activities outside the four of 00:08:51.980 --> 00:08:54.299 us. There were three mail drops at different 00:08:54.299 --> 00:08:57.379 locations around the city to about 500 supporters 00:08:57.379 --> 00:09:00.919 with our call to action, the statement that we 00:09:00.919 --> 00:09:03.679 presented during the draft board action itself. 00:09:04.090 --> 00:09:07.330 and again setting up the basis for a groundswell 00:09:07.330 --> 00:09:10.070 of support for when the future trial that we 00:09:10.070 --> 00:09:13.149 anticipated would actually take place. Winning 00:09:13.149 --> 00:09:16.350 that trial was not something we expected. Individual 00:09:16.350 --> 00:09:18.669 resistors at the time were still getting five 00:09:18.669 --> 00:09:21.269 -year sentences for tearing up their draft board. 00:09:21.769 --> 00:09:24.990 We got one -year sentences which we never end 00:09:24.990 --> 00:09:28.289 up serving because about two years later we went 00:09:28.289 --> 00:09:32.059 on appeal a First Amendment case for the conspiracy 00:09:32.059 --> 00:09:35.299 count that we had been convicted of was overturned. 00:09:35.340 --> 00:09:39.200 That is my story, except that in the years since, 00:09:39.620 --> 00:09:42.700 it's been amazing to see how many people's lives 00:09:42.700 --> 00:09:46.120 we affected that we didn't even know about, including 00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:48.600 most recently when I posted a mini documentary 00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:52.519 about our action on Facebook, an absolutely overwhelming 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:55.240 response from colleagues who didn't know about 00:09:55.240 --> 00:09:58.519 this chapter in my life. to young men who were 00:09:58.519 --> 00:10:00.720 in that draft board and never understood why 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:02.559 they never heard from the draft board again. 00:10:03.179 --> 00:10:06.059 So we are still hearing 50 years later from people 00:10:06.059 --> 00:10:08.559 who don't believe they'd be walking this earth 00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:11.440 much less forming their own families because 00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:15.500 of our action back in April, 1971. I have no 00:10:15.500 --> 00:10:18.679 doubt about that, Tom. No doubt that you saved 00:10:18.679 --> 00:10:22.100 a lot of American lives, which is a beautiful 00:10:22.100 --> 00:10:24.379 thing, but also a lot of Vietnamese lives, and 00:10:24.379 --> 00:10:26.629 I think... That is also obviously a beautiful 00:10:26.629 --> 00:10:29.710 thing. I'm hoping that you actually do wind up 00:10:29.710 --> 00:10:31.570 writing a book about this, because I think it's 00:10:31.570 --> 00:10:34.309 still relevant. I know it's 50 years already 00:10:34.309 --> 00:10:37.509 on this, but looking back on it, can you tell 00:10:37.509 --> 00:10:39.789 me, I think I have a pretty fair idea, but how 00:10:39.789 --> 00:10:45.110 do you think that event, that trial, the experience, 00:10:45.830 --> 00:10:47.690 the idea that you might spend a year in jail, 00:10:47.690 --> 00:10:49.570 et cetera, how do you think that impacted who 00:10:49.570 --> 00:10:52.899 you are today? I remember driving home with my 00:10:52.899 --> 00:10:55.600 parents shoeless because blood had poured on 00:10:55.600 --> 00:10:58.259 the shoes and the FBI had confiscated them. And 00:10:58.259 --> 00:11:00.580 they're going, Tom, how could you do this? How 00:11:00.580 --> 00:11:03.840 could you break the law? And I said, I was just 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:06.320 following what you taught me. They'd been involved 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:08.600 in fair housing work in Old Park and River Forest. 00:11:08.679 --> 00:11:11.500 And I saw this as a natural progression. My dad 00:11:11.500 --> 00:11:14.240 had taken me to a Martin Luther King rally at 00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:17.019 Soldier Field and where we marched on City Hall 00:11:17.019 --> 00:11:19.879 demanding affordable and fair housing for the 00:11:19.879 --> 00:11:24.029 city. So I felt like I had roots that I was building 00:11:24.029 --> 00:11:27.129 on or trying to grow from. And indeed, several 00:11:27.129 --> 00:11:29.350 years later, when I was in a little blue streak, 00:11:29.669 --> 00:11:32.049 my parents were right there supporting me because 00:11:32.049 --> 00:11:34.230 even they came around to understanding that maybe 00:11:34.230 --> 00:11:37.909 I hadn't quite ruined my life. My parents, they 00:11:37.909 --> 00:11:41.129 felt that I had short circuited my career and 00:11:41.129 --> 00:11:43.789 my potential to be whatever, a lawyer or something 00:11:43.789 --> 00:11:46.330 else. I had decided not to be a priest anymore, 00:11:46.330 --> 00:11:48.399 and they were fine with that. but you know I 00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:50.559 was I was destined for bigger things and now 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:53.639 I'm a convicted felon you've ruined it all well 00:11:53.639 --> 00:11:56.799 as I found out over time perhaps I got steered 00:11:56.799 --> 00:11:58.720 in a little different direction because I was 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:03.179 convicted felon but as a middle class white guy 00:12:03.179 --> 00:12:05.700 I was able to survive what perhaps other people 00:12:05.700 --> 00:12:09.220 would not with that kind of record by engaging 00:12:09.220 --> 00:12:12.279 in the non -profit community first with affordable 00:12:12.279 --> 00:12:14.399 housing and later with city -wide organizing 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:17.159 and ultimately with the community media workshop 00:12:17.159 --> 00:12:19.220 to help other groups tell their story better. 00:12:19.779 --> 00:12:22.360 So I think that work, which was always trying 00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:26.200 to bring underrepresented voices into play and 00:12:26.200 --> 00:12:28.820 into public so that we weren't always just hearing 00:12:28.820 --> 00:12:32.299 from official sources, grows out of the work 00:12:32.299 --> 00:12:34.080 that I was doing in high school and college, 00:12:34.379 --> 00:12:36.480 trying to directly impact the end of the war. 00:12:36.759 --> 00:12:40.679 We learned a lot about media relations, about 00:12:40.679 --> 00:12:44.259 public speaking, about engaging the skeptics 00:12:44.259 --> 00:12:47.009 and bringing them around. Not always a hundred 00:12:47.009 --> 00:12:49.629 percent, but a lot of them. And I learned the 00:12:49.629 --> 00:12:52.309 importance of presence and speaking one's mind, 00:12:52.409 --> 00:12:55.169 whatever the particular situation might be. I 00:12:55.169 --> 00:12:58.029 love it, man. And I got to tell you real fast, 00:12:58.029 --> 00:13:00.350 because we're almost running out of time, but 00:13:00.350 --> 00:13:03.450 I did have Bill Ayers on this show a few episodes 00:13:03.450 --> 00:13:07.029 ago, maybe. And the contrast that you're talking 00:13:07.029 --> 00:13:10.429 about is a profound one, because I do believe 00:13:10.429 --> 00:13:12.450 that everybody's trying to figure out a way to 00:13:12.450 --> 00:13:15.460 end the war that they thought was unjust. But 00:13:15.460 --> 00:13:19.419 you and your cohorts definitely went the Martin 00:13:19.419 --> 00:13:23.039 Luther King way, which was nonviolent and it 00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:25.279 was not, it wasn't a secret mission. Like you 00:13:25.279 --> 00:13:28.720 said, it was very public, very civil disobedience 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:31.480 oriented where you stood around and waited to 00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:35.100 get arrested for your actions. And I've always 00:13:35.100 --> 00:13:37.259 been, I was a big fan of Martin Luther King, 00:13:37.259 --> 00:13:40.960 of course still am. And consider anybody who 00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:43.740 can go through nonviolence, be nonviolent to 00:13:43.740 --> 00:13:48.309 be heroic. When's the last time you talked to 00:13:48.309 --> 00:13:52.389 Bill Ayers? It's been a couple of years, although 00:13:52.389 --> 00:13:54.870 we engage occasionally on Facebook when he does 00:13:54.870 --> 00:13:59.809 one of his treatises. We've agreed that we're 00:13:59.809 --> 00:14:03.649 in different spots and I'll leave it at that 00:14:03.649 --> 00:14:06.830 because a lot of our action and the framing of 00:14:06.830 --> 00:14:09.889 it and how we did it was a direct reaction to 00:14:09.889 --> 00:14:13.080 hit and run. kind of activity that wasn't just 00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:15.080 weather underground. There are other people even 00:14:15.080 --> 00:14:16.840 in the Catholic left that were doing some of 00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:20.740 that. But I discovered the power of nonviolent 00:14:20.740 --> 00:14:23.440 civil disobedience. The ability to speak truth 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:27.440 to power is tremendously enhanced when one puts 00:14:27.440 --> 00:14:31.840 oneself in jeopardy because you're already throwing 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:35.320 off the opposition. You're doing what? You're 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:37.980 going to do what to your life? And it kind of 00:14:37.980 --> 00:14:40.220 levels the playing field so that you can engage 00:14:40.220 --> 00:14:43.720 in a different level on a moral level rather 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:47.059 than a practical, pragmatic level, which was 00:14:47.059 --> 00:14:49.720 the argument at the time through all the presidents 00:14:49.720 --> 00:14:53.000 that waged that war was that, you know, we had 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:55.139 to be practical here about what's happening over 00:14:55.139 --> 00:14:58.080 there and stop it. Well, it was a moral what 00:14:58.080 --> 00:14:59.779 they were trying to do, particularly the way 00:14:59.779 --> 00:15:03.000 they tried to do it. And we can see how that 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:06.629 region of the world is today without our presence 00:15:06.629 --> 00:15:11.090 as it was for 15 or 20 years. I do think one 00:15:11.090 --> 00:15:13.269 of my struggles in doing the book is trying to 00:15:13.269 --> 00:15:16.990 figure out how to speak to the importance of 00:15:16.990 --> 00:15:19.769 nonviolent disobedience in this time and era. 00:15:20.389 --> 00:15:23.169 The tools are different. With social media, one 00:15:23.169 --> 00:15:26.129 would think you have a far better chance of communication, 00:15:26.129 --> 00:15:29.129 but there's so much clatter out there, it's really 00:15:29.129 --> 00:15:32.350 hard to break through. And I think that we were 00:15:32.350 --> 00:15:35.879 very deliberate in what materials we brought 00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:38.179 into the draft board that we can later use during 00:15:38.179 --> 00:15:42.240 the trial, what we said during the action itself, 00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:45.720 how we engaged the police. One of the two cops 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:48.700 who reported walked in holding up a peace sign. 00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:51.879 And when we asked if we could pray, he said, 00:15:52.139 --> 00:15:54.019 as long as you don't destroy any more property, 00:15:54.419 --> 00:15:56.360 you can do whatever we want, but you are gonna 00:15:56.360 --> 00:16:00.490 be arrested. So even in that engagement, We were 00:16:00.490 --> 00:16:03.129 breaking down barriers in a way that, of course, 00:16:03.169 --> 00:16:06.649 a lot of people in a police situation like that 00:16:06.649 --> 00:16:09.809 would be just far too nervous about stepping 00:16:09.809 --> 00:16:13.370 out the wrong way or worse. We used our privilege, 00:16:13.429 --> 00:16:17.070 as I look back on it, to speak firmly and strongly 00:16:17.070 --> 00:16:20.250 to the powers that be. And yeah, we saved some 00:16:20.250 --> 00:16:22.450 lives, not only American lives, but I believe 00:16:22.450 --> 00:16:28.740 a lot of Indo -Chinese area lives as well. Your 00:16:28.740 --> 00:16:31.080 soldier friend, have you run into him? Is he 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:34.080 still alive? He is alive. And we have talked 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:37.000 briefly, but not the interview I've been hoping 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:41.580 for. I tracked him down. He was a DCFS caseworker. 00:16:41.940 --> 00:16:44.720 He came back from his four years and went to 00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:47.379 UIC and got a degree. And then we were pretty 00:16:47.379 --> 00:16:50.100 much out of touch for many years, but I tracked 00:16:50.100 --> 00:16:52.679 him down and discovered he had been a father 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:55.419 of the year in the South suburban area that he 00:16:55.419 --> 00:16:58.480 worked in. and discovered ironically that he's 00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:03.299 living in countryside hills. Great, great. What's 00:17:03.299 --> 00:17:06.180 his name again? Roland Radford. He was a big 00:17:06.180 --> 00:17:09.079 influence in my life. Well, this is a big shout 00:17:09.079 --> 00:17:12.259 out to Roland Radford. I'd like to thank my guest, 00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:16.420 Tom Clark, for telling that powerful story. Thank 00:17:16.420 --> 00:17:19.299 Roland Radford for motivating it in some ways 00:17:19.299 --> 00:17:22.859 by asking Tom to leave Rome and go back and try 00:17:22.859 --> 00:17:25.220 to stop the war. So thank you for coming on the 00:17:25.220 --> 00:17:27.880 show, Tom. It's great to see you again, Jay, 00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:31.880 and I appreciate the time. All right. Well, that's 00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:34.500 our show. I'd like to thank Tom, of course, but 00:17:34.500 --> 00:17:37.819 also our sponsors, Sidelining Publishing, publishers 00:17:37.819 --> 00:17:40.480 of quality books, including I've Got Peace in 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:43.900 My Fingers by Susan Salador, and of course, LaughSaver 00:17:43.900 --> 00:17:47.240 .com. Look for that app coming out in June. That's 00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:52.759 LaughSaver .com. LaughSaver .com. So I'm gonna 00:17:52.759 --> 00:17:56.450 end this show, certainly in Tom's honor. with 00:17:56.450 --> 00:17:59.950 Susan Sauer's classic, I've Got Peace in My Fingers. 00:18:00.430 --> 00:18:03.769 Until next time, this is Jay Rehack asking you 00:18:03.769 --> 00:18:06.369 all to please stay safe out there and try not 00:18:06.369 --> 00:18:09.950 to hurt anybody. I've got peace, peace, peace 00:18:09.950 --> 00:18:14.849 in my fingers. Watch what I can do. I've got 00:18:14.849 --> 00:18:18.690 peace, peace, peace in my fingers. I'm gonna 00:18:18.690 --> 00:18:23.029 shake hands with you. I've got peace, peace. 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:25.579 I've got peace, peace, peace in my fingers Watch 00:18:25.579 --> 00:18:31.200 what I can do I've got peace, peace, peace in 00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:35.440 my fingers I'm gonna shake hands with you I've 00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:40.079 got words, words, words in my head Watch what 00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:45.839 I can do I've got words, words, words in my head 00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:49.660 I'm gonna talk things over with you I've got 00:18:49.660 --> 00:18:54.819 words, words, words in my head Watch what I can 00:18:54.819 --> 00:19:00.220 do I've got words, words, words in my head I'm 00:19:00.220 --> 00:19:04.059 gonna talk things over with you I've got love, 00:19:04.460 --> 00:19:10.240 love, love in my heart Watch what I can do I've 00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:14.819 got love, love, love in my heart I'm gonna give 00:19:14.819 --> 00:19:20.660 some to you I've got love, love, love in my heart 00:19:20.660 --> 00:19:26.480 Watch what I can do I've got love, love, love 00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:31.299 in my heart I'm gonna give song to you I've got 00:19:31.299 --> 00:19:36.279 peace, peace, peace in my fingers Words, words, 00:19:36.680 --> 00:19:40.740 words in my head I've got love, love, love in 00:19:40.740 --> 00:19:43.759 my heart I'm gonna give song to you