Hi and welcome back to Tell Me What Happened,
the podcast that features folks from all walks
of life telling us childhood stories. I'm your
host, Jay Rehak, and like you, I've had my share
of childhood experiences, some of them great,
some of them not so great. But I like to think
that everything that happened to me as a child
has helped me to become who I am today. Tell
Me What Happened is sponsored by Sideline Inc.
Publishing, publishers of quality books, including
Susan Salazar's classic One Little Act of Kindness,
available on Amazon .com wherever quality books
are sold. Tell Me What Happened is also sponsored
by LaughSaver .com. Visit LaughSaver .com and
record your laughter. We'll keep it for you,
now and forever. It's free and your children
and your grandchildren will appreciate it. That's
LaughSaver .com. Go there today and record your
laughter. Alright, I'd like to welcome my good
friend Michelle Gunderson. Michelle, I've known
her for a thousand years. She is an early childhood
educator, recently retired. She's also a union
activist. She's one of the heroes, I would say,
of my 35 year teaching experience where I looked
at her and was always impressed. Anyway, welcome
to the show, Michelle Gunderson. Thank you, Jay.
And thank you for this show. You and I had a
chance to talk earlier about how important it
is to tell. stories from early childhood. And
I wanted to quote a woman who is considered the
expert of play, Jill Murphy. And her book on
play is read by early childhood educators around
the country. And she talks about childhood amnesia
and how adults forget what it was like to be
a child. And that childhood amnesia is a huge
part of why we have such bad educational policy.
or why sometimes teachers don't relate well to
the children they're teaching. So when you started
this podcast I thought of her immediately and
also how important it is for adults who work
with children or form policy or have children
or grandchildren that really includes all of
us. to start thinking about what it was like
to be a child so that we have empathy, but also
that we make the right decisions when dealing
with children or forming policy about children.
So let's highlight that right now, that idea
of childhood amnesia. I'm going to use that,
by the way. I'm going to use that in my podcast
in the future. I think that is excellent. Thank
you so much for that. Absolutely. And so a lot
of times when I was teaching, 34 years of teaching,
whenever I would cringe at what another teacher
said, or maybe how an administrator approached
a child, I would think, that person forgets what
it was like to be a child. Or maybe that person
forgets what it was like to be the last one chosen
in basketball. or the stories that create us
and make us human, the good ones, as you said,
and the tough ones too. So I'm going to tell
my story. It's actually not very long, but it's
a beautiful childhood memory that was interrupted.
So. Some people have stories for good and some
people have stories that are difficult to listen
to about childhood. Mine is actually a really
pleasant memory. My sister and I are only 18
months apart and we're very, very close to one
another. Then when we were five and three, we
lived in a tri -level home. built in the 1960s
and at the top of the stairs was this closet
that was wide and deep and ran around the whole
length of the stairwell and it was the perfect
play space for children because it was enclosed
and it felt safe. And we would decide every other
day or so what it was going to be. Was it going
to be a jungle? Was it going to be a palace?
Was it going to be a kitchen? And we would spend
a long time deciding what the play was going
to be. And then we would act out the story and
the play was deep. One of the things that we
have to understand about childhood is children
need deep play, not superficial play or not.
play that is gamified, but true deep child initiated
child directed play. And day after day, we would
dress up and play and decide who we were going
to be. And it felt magical. And I still remember
the magic of that play. When we were when I was
six, we had to leave that home to move closer
to my father's work and our new house never felt
the same. It was never a good place to play.
My mom loved her house very tidy, very orderly,
and the place she chose for us to play was downstairs
and it was far away from everybody else and it
wasn't enclosed or safe or cozy. So in my childhood,
I've always had this grieving of that sense of
place to the point where during the pandemic,
I started having dreams about it. And I think
all of us started having really intense dreams
during the first months of the pandemic. And
I asked my husband to drive me past my childhood
home to kind of put the dreams to rest. I had
this intense need to see it again. It had just
been sold so I could see it on Redfin and could
see all the rooms and what it looked like. And
it actually was very therapeutic to have that
remembrance. of that time. So I wanted to tell
this story instructively as a person who works
with young children, because there's two things
here that we, and maybe even more, that we need
to think about. One is remembering the good things
about childhood, not just the ones that created
our hardships. or formed us in ways that were
traumatic even and that we have to analyze how
important play is in a child's life and that
play interrupted can be difficult for children.
The other part of this story that helps me with
childhood amnesia and working with children and
especially a Chicago public school early childhood
teacher is understanding family mobility. and
understanding how difficult it is for a child
to move. And especially since I taught first
grade for the most of my career, a move for a
six -year -old is really a difficult experience.
And as Chicago teachers, I always had two or
three extra spaces in my room for new students
several times during my career. the space was
there for a homeless student or a child who experienced
housing insecurity, as we say now. And I would
always want to make sure there was a welcoming
place at any moment in time in my classroom,
because we just never know who's going to show
up on our doorstep. And nothing is more disconcerting
to a classroom. or a child you're trying to greet
than to scramble for something. And those of
us who have taught in Chicago understand what
it feels like. A child and a parent usually show
up midday because we have to understand how the
shelter system in Chicago works. You have to
pack up your belongings. You have to go get your
breakfast. You usually have to stand in line
for things. So many times when a child who was
experiencing house insecurity, housing insecurity
would come to my door. It wouldn't be the first
thing in the morning. There would not be a chance
for me to get things together or to organize
myself. And so I want us to all remember that
even a child like me who had two working parents
and a loving family and food and a new house
to go to, I experienced incredible loss in moving.
So let's take that understanding and really open
our hearts up to children who experience housing
insecurity, but also the mobility rate in Chicago
because of poverty. Our children many times go
from place to place or relative to relative.
And we have to understand how that feels for
them. And so that is the bulk of... of what I
wanted to say about that. But also, then, let's
go to the positive feelings about childhood in
play. When we talk about sense of space and what
it means to a child, there's a really wonderful
woman named Debbie Miller, and she wrote this
book called Growing Readers. And she talked about
sense of space for a reader all the time. And
the very first lesson that she says you should
have with six -year -olds is draw your place
you love to read. So let's unpack that and how
important it is, that sense of place. First of
all, you're making assumption that you love to
read and that reading is something to love. The
next thing you do is that you help children understand
that sense of place and habit and love and comfort.
When you do this exercise with six -year -olds,
you get a lot of information really fast. You
find out who doesn't love to read, who might
need support and help in finding a calmness in
order to read. Think about how complicated it
is to learn to read and how much you have to
feel good about yourself. have confidence in
your safety, not have your mind preoccupied with
other things. So I dearly adore this educator,
Debbie Miller, for understanding that we need
to build inside our classroom as well, places
where children love to read. And it's usually
not a desk and a chair, right? Guess where I
love to read as a child? In that closet with
a bunch of pillows and a lamp and a flashlight.
Oh my gosh, how many kids? absolutely love to
read under the covers with a flashlight, that
sense of having your secret place, so that you
can develop your inner self and your inner life.
And so think as if you are an educator reading
this or a parent or a grandparent, think about
establishing that beautiful safe place for a
child to read or learn. And it's usually not
the desk you set up in the corner of the room.
It's usually the comfortable place. When we think
about childhood amnesia, my first grade classroom,
we all sat in desks in a row. I went to first
grade in 1965. And we had hardback chairs. desks
in a row did not talk all day long and we were
seated alphabetically because it was easier to
pass the papers in that way for the teacher to
grade and everything was pencil and paper oriented
and done to self. How lucky am I that my parents
were educators and I had a house full of books
and could read before I went to school because
learning to read like that is what some people
call read -aside, killing reading. and making
reading something that is done in isolation out
of context without the help of others. And we
know from Vygotsky that we all need socialization
and the social venue in order to learn. So safe,
cozy space does not need to be expensive and
it doesn't need to be extensive. How many times
did you have a large box and that's where your
child wanted to play? Right? Not something that
we have to have as a point of privilege. And
children will find these places themselves, but
honor them. Don't have your child pick it up
every night. Don't make it someplace that you
consider unattractive. Make sure it's a... space
that you honor and hold steadfast for the child.
I also wanted to talk about helping children
tell their own stories just like this and that
that's your way of knowing more about children
and understanding them. A child the other day,
I was substitute teaching. I'm so lucky to be
substitute teaching in the Chicago schools right
now because it helps me understand what everybody
is still going through and that it is even more
difficult than when we left off school in spring
of 2021 because now we have more students in
front of us. And I didn't think it was going
to be fair for me to continue as a union leader
or a voice for early childhood teachers unless
I kept myself inside the classroom from time
to time. And so I was a substitute teaching in
a second grade classroom and a little girl had
her mask on and she goes, oh no, my tooth fell
out and it's in my mask. And later on, poor kid,
right? And then later on that day, we're doing
journal writing. She says, I don't have anything
to write about. And he said, darling, you have
got to be kidding. We're in the middle of probably
the most memorable events of your life. And you
had a tooth fall out in your mask. You've got
plenty to write about. So I love that you're
doing this, Jay. I love that we're diving in
to what it feels like. to have childhood experiences.
I want people to remember, what did it feel like
to learn to read? I give a lot of seminars to
teachers on teaching children to read naturalistically
and through guided reading. And when I begin
every one of my seminars, I say, I want to hear
how you learn to read. And as we go around the
room and talk about how we learn to read, we
can attach that to all of the different philosophies
of reading. And there's not a one person that
says, I learned how to read through a workbook.
And so let's remember about space and time and
what children need. The last thing I wanted to
delve into about what adults need to remember
about childhood and maybe take from my experience
of play being so important is understanding not
to interrupt play. and how disarming it is to
a child, especially very small children, to interrupt
their play. It has a sense of breaking into their
world. It's obstructive and it's nonproductive.
And so there's some things that I see in classrooms
happening that interrupt play. One of them is
when we have early childhood teachers that experience
play and teaching play through having centers.
And I have air quotes on that centers. Not a
good idea. because that's not authentic play.
It's not child directed, child chosen. And if
you're ringing a little bell and having kids
rotate through the centers, you've just created
worksheet type atmosphere by a different name.
And there is nothing more disconcerting to a
child, especially a child who needs play for
their emotional release to be interrupted. by
an adult and told you have to do something next.
In fact, whenever I've done observations of student
teachers, that's when children tantrum because
their play has been interrupted and they don't
they don't want to move to the Plato table. They
didn't choose the Plato table. They don't like
the Plato table. And I was having a great time
with the cars. I'm going to show you how displeased
I am with you. I'm on the floor. So one of the
things that I've developed in my practice is
giving children warnings. And now, God, mourning
actually sounds punitive. What would be a better
way of saying it? I give them a heads up. I'll
say, in five minutes, we have to pick up. And
this is true. I mean, you do have to go to lunch
at some time. You can't let play go on forever
when you have 30 children in front of you. But
what I'll do is be instructive. You'll need to
finish your story that you've got going, or you'll
need to get together as a group to decide what
it's going to feel like tomorrow and children.
can be taught how to plan for their play so that
it doesn't feel so disruptive when they do have
to pick up. And I will tell you, I had so few
discipline issues in my classroom, even with
children with their own personal struggles, by
understanding not to interrupt them when they
were doing something important and to give them
the time they needed to finish things. having
a space in my classroom where you put unfinished
projects. Now, we did have to have Lego take
apart day because we get to the point there weren't
any Legos left. But guess what? I would give
them like a two day warning and put it up on
a calendar on Friday. It's Lego take apart day.
And how does that look? We take apart the Legos.
We don't have a tantrum. We understand that that's
the way we have to be in a sharing community.
Those those kind of interactions between adult
and child so that it works out well. So the other
thing that I wanted to talk about this is that
we have to take all of these things into consideration
and understand play deeply, but also understand
what is not play so that it can't be co -opted.
We have to know that Arranging things for children
that are done in playfulness, absolutely fine,
but it's not play. And the worst is putting a
child on a computer that the learning has been
gamified, like a video game and calling that
play. That is not play. And actually we have
a lot of evidence about brain growth and children
with immediate feedback and impulse control,
how detrimental gamified learning is. for small
children. And I think probably we're going to
see that true in the middle grades as well. So
I want us to understand the importance of play,
what it is, what it isn't, to shelter it, to
honor it, and to help children feel comfortable
and supported in their worlds through how the
adults understand play. And if I can leave everybody
and start engaging with Jay on his reactions
to what I've had to say, I think one of the most
horrible things that has happened in education
is that we have what I call play for some. And
what I mean about that is a kid in Moneka gets
to play in kindergarten. There are children in
Chicago who their kindergarten is nothing. but
sit at your table and do worksheets or sit in
isolation and accomplish tasks, especially if
those tasks are being attached to very small
incremental standards instead of understanding
the whole image of a child and the whole needs
of a child. So I kid with my friends that my
tombstone I want engraved, she let them play.
And let's try to build more play advocates and
more people who understand childhood amnesia
and understand children through understanding
their own childhood. So that's my story, Jane.
Beautiful. You know, I tell my wife, because
she's an early childhood musician and educator,
and I always say, The people who should get paid
the most in society are early childhood educators
because they can do the most damage. So if you
get the wrong ones, it's no good, you know? And
I wish I'd have been in your classroom. I had
a flood of memories come up when you were talking
because when I was a little boy, I was so afraid
before I got to kindergarten that I was going
to fail because I go, I can't, I can't read.
What am I going to do if I don't learn? My kindergarten
teacher was good, my mother was good, and she
said, don't worry about it, don't worry about
it. And the other memory I think of from what
you were talking about, there's so many things
you articulated, but I had a very steady... childhood,
but one of the most traumatic things that happened
to me when I was a boy was that my best friend
moved when I was five and it really threw me
off. And then the last thing that really is evocative
for me is that in my life right now, and ever
since I was a little boy, but my family knows
this, I'm 65 years old, that there are days when
I go underneath the covers of my own bed and
I tell my children and my wife, don't bother
me, I'm in my house. And what I do is I sit there
and I read or I think about short stories that
I want to write or have read or whatever else.
And it sounds sort of weird as a 65 year old
to confess it, but it's just true. I'd say I'm
in my house and my children and my wife know,
leave him alone. He's in his own world. He's
thinking about something that he needs. needs
a little time on that's the point isn't it children
need we all need our own worlds well that's what
i'm thinking i'm i'm one for those little kids
and unfortunately that's what it what comes out
of what you're telling me is that I think about
the kids that don't get that chance, you know,
to have their space or to be allowed to just
play around. The fact that you're able to have
a little cupboard and then have that sort of
taken from you by the move, which was understandable,
of course, it is what it is. But for you to understand
that later, so that childhood amnesia, as I listen
to you, I just keep thinking. I should read a
little more Deborah Miller and I should also
just sort of incorporate this notion of childhood
amnesia because it is really important. I know
that not just for educators but for parents and
everybody. You know my wife's got a song where
she says all of us were babies once. Oh exactly
like when we think about who these stories impacted
it impacts those of us who have no children in
our lives who are waiting in line at the jewel.
tolerating the kid who's having the tantrum because
they've just had enough and they want that candy
bar and they put them right there at the height
of the kid's life. Remembering in our daily encounters
what it was like to be a child, you know, a couple
of things before we go that you said that are
really important that I'm hoping some other people
who come on your podcast can talk about friendships.
how important childhood friendships are. And
one of the things we try to do when we're constructing
classrooms at our school is make sure every single
child has at least two friends in each new configuration
of a classroom, because it can be very difficult
for. the first six, eight weeks of school for
a second grader who's seven, to have an open
mind to reading and an open heart for what's
new if they're looking around and there are no
friends there. And I work on that. trying to
help friendships and establish friendships as
the patient and careful adult looking in without
being too intrusive. There are ways to do it.
Another thing that you brought up is you know
that educators can do great harm. I'm not so
sure it's as true as that the policymakers can
do the great harm. We have bosses who tell us
what to do during our day. And if the boss did
not set up the school correctly or didn't set
the tone, It's an uphill battle for most educators.
I am very lucky that at my school, it's a strongly
structured school with strong unionists, where
we believe we're a faculty, not a staff. To me,
what that means is our word goes as the experts.
When Rahm Emanuel increased the day to seven
hours and we had an extra day for an extra hour
for first graders, we were being told what it
could be. And the first grade team said, it's
going to be an hour of self -selected play. And
we made our argument for it. We made our argument
with the LSE, with the parents, and with the
principal. And we have had an hour of self -selected
play for first graders for more than nine years
now. And it would not have been possible if we
hadn't been firm in our education ourselves as
professionals and had solidarity. in our understanding
of what early childhood is. So we've got to make
sure that people remember their childhoods, understand
them, unpack them. And it's part of making this
world a better place for children and adults
alike. Well, thank you, Michelle. That was fantastic.
I felt like I'm in a seminar. You got to teach
this. I don't know if you teach it. I teach it
and write it. Absolutely. You got a book about
it. We need you to write a book about it, too.
Not yet. Okay. Yep. There's a lot of good out
there. Well, thank you, Michelle. That was fantastic.
Very evocative, emotional, and also educational
for me. So thank you for that. So I'd like to
thank my friend Michelle Gunderson for coming
on the show. I'd also like to thank our sponsors,
Sidelining Publishing, publishers of quality
books, and laughsaver .com. Visit laughsaver
.com and record your laughter. It's free and
we'll keep it for you. I'm going to end this
show a little differently this week. I'm going
to end it with Susan Salazar's fine Finkelstein
in honor of my friend Michelle who sort of helped
me understand a little bit more the importance
of not having childhood amnesia. So until next
time, this is Jay Reheck asking you all... to
stay safe out there and try not to hurt anybody.
my name I know that it sounds funny but I like
it just the same we have lots of things that
make us different from each other but all of
us were babies once and that makes us like each
other my best friend is from Bosnia and his folks
call him John our mailman's from South Africa
and And the crossing guard's from Mexico And
his first name is Juan And I'm fine, Fickle -stein
And I'm fine about my name I know that it sounds
funny But I like it just the same We have lots
of things That make us different from each other
But all of us were babies once And that makes
us like each other My family goes to synagogue
when We would like to pray, but others go to
churches on Christian holidays. And others pray
in mosques or temples or under golden doors.
And there are those whose holy place is nowhere
else but home. where baby is once and that makes
us like each other I have a friend who said that
he is openly adopted and when I asked what do
you mean he said he's happily co -opted turns
out my friend is luckier than others I have known
he's got two moms and will have two moms even
after he is grown But all of us were babies once
And that makes us like each other And I'm fine,
Finkelstein And I'm fine about my name I know
that it sounds funny But I like it just the same
We have lots of things That make us different
from each other But all of us were babies once
And that makes us like each other But all of
us were babies once And that makes us like each
other