Pull up a chair and tell me your memory
Why does it matter to you?
I want to hear your story, your point of view
Tell me what happened to you
Hi and welcome back to Tell Me What Happened
The podcast that features folks from all walks of life
Telling us one true childhood experience
And how that experience, that event, that circumstance
Impacted who they are today
I'm your host Jay Rehak
And like you, I've had my share of childhood experiences that have stayed with me
Some of them have been very painful
Some of them beautiful
Some of them profound maybe
But all of them I'd like to think have helped make me a better person
Now as I always say, they may not be true
But that's what I'd like to think
Alright!
Today I have as my guest
Eric Horvath
Eric mobilizes resources for marginalized community across the country
He does this as an investor and an educator
Primarily as VP of community-engaged investments at early stone management
And adjunct professor at the City College of New York
Where he teaches impact investing to graduate students
And one other side note, I actually met Eric through the trustee leadership forum at Harvard University
Where he helps coordinate the program
Welcome to the show, Eric Horvath
Thanks Jay, thanks for having me
Eric, I know a little bit about your story because you put it in the notes as you and I were going back and forth
I'm really excited to hear your story because it's really profound at least in the abstract
So are you ready to tell your story?
Sure am
So just Jay, thanks for all the collaboration and camaraderie that we've had with the trustee leadership forum
I'm really glad that we've been able to meet
And I'm happy to be on the podcast
I've appreciated some of the previous episodes
So just before I hop into my story, I think just to frame for the listeners
It's very key to know that I am Korean American
So I present as Asian and as male and I was adopted as a child from South Korea
So the reason why that's important and why that will come up in my story
Is that as I enrolled in things as a child, specifically literally baseball
I always needed to furnish a birth certificate or I needed to furnish documentation to show where I was born
Just proof of citizenship
So the need for documentation around kind of my citizenship status has always been something keenly on my mind since I was very, very young
So maybe to hop in, I'll say I grew up on Long Island
I'm in my mid-30s, so I'll take you maybe back to suburban Long Island, which for folks that are not in the New York area
This is just an offshoot of New York City
I was in fifth grade, I grew up in the suburbs, went to public elementary school
And as a 10-year-old in the morning, I remember just playing outside with my friends
You know, at 8.30, 8.45 in the morning, before the bell would ring and we would line up to go into class
So this was basically the entire ritual that we all look forward to playing soccer at 8.30 in the morning
Running around, getting really sweaty and just having fun with our friends before we have to go sit and listen, basically
So we just did that for years and I really remember this one morning in fifth grade as a however old I was
We lined up for the bell ring at 9 in the morning, we lined up in our class lines like we always do
And everything seemed the same until some of our teachers came out with a very stern kind of, like a pretty militant and very stern attitude
It was unusual, it was definitely not the way it normally, normally how they came out
And I think we were all trying to figure out why their posture was more tense and why they were not really addressing us the way they normally did
They didn't really engage with those types of questions, they just told us like march inside
So we walked into the building, instead of going straight into our classroom, they took us to our cafeteria
Again, continuing this facade, essentially what was going to be a role play of immigration officers at Ellis Island
In social studies or history class, we were probably trying to, we were probably learning about, you know, the history of Ellis Island, the Statue of Liberty, in the early 1900s
And this was just a way for them to kind of have us experience it in a non textbook way
So we're all pot sweaty, confused, why, we're not going to our classroom, they marked us to the cafeteria
And then we look around and then the cafeteria is totally turned upside down
I don't remember all of the exact details, but you know, if you've been into an elementary school cafeteria, it's just a bunch of long picnic tables
But things had been moved around, there were barriers put up, there were desks, like teachers were sitting all over the place
And we're all still very confused
I don't know when we realized that this was a simulation, again, we're very young, so I don't know if we ever really realized it was a simulation
But they kind of ordered us, again, without any context, to go through each of the stations and each of the checkpoints, trying to simulate what it would have been like for us to have immigrated through Ellis Island
So, you know, the reason why I mentioned at the beginning about my appearance, the circumstances of my birth and being adopted is that when I was growing up, I often got very nervous
That I had to provide some documentation around my birth, citizenship, and being a naturalized citizen
I was always so nervous whenever I registered for sports or for things that I needed to have this documentation
And my teacher didn't know that, and I grew up in a middle class, upper middle class, white suburb, where there's very little racial diversity
So I definitely stood out quite a bit amongst my classmates
And I got overwhelmingly nervous and anxious at every station throughout the cafeteria
And I was unable to articulate why, or I was shameful or afraid
I might have even said it to the teachers as I tried to go through, but they kept blocking me and saying, like, what do you mean you don't have this paperwork?
What do you mean you don't know the answer to X, Y, and Z?
Like, I don't know what time I was born
So I got increasingly, increasingly anxious, and then everyone else, all my friends who identify as white, like, they were able to just be like, oh, I'm Irish, I'm German
Like, they just went through everything very easily, and they didn't really have to think too much about it
But I just really remember very distinctly at some point, like, and probably an hour into it
I just gave up, I absolutely shut down, because I was so anxious and scared
And I probably started crying in the corner and just wanted to, like, be removed
And finally, after all of that time, one of the teachers, I don't even think I had her, she just noticed, like, what, you know, why you're upset
And I explained it to her, and she finally revealed to me that it was a simulation
Nothing was going to happen to me, and, like, it really wasn't a big deal
But I always think about that a lot, because I think about how could that have been handled better from the adult perspective, from the teacher's perspective
Even though they didn't understand my full context and, like, everything that I had grown up with
How could that have just been handled with more care?
And it really, to the point of this podcast, it really has stayed with me a lot
And really has influenced a lot of how I approach things now with people that I don't fully know, their full, their backgrounds
Well, Eric, you know, I was a high school and grade school teacher for 36 years
So it makes me sad to hear that story in this sense of the poor little fifth grader, first of all
And then I think about those teachers, like you said, almost, that what they could have done and what they should have done
And what they didn't do sort of breaks my heart a little bit
I am a school teacher, and I never throw other school teachers under the bus, I wasn't there, so I don't know
But it seems kind of cruel to put anybody through that without letting them know what's going on
You bring up a fantastic point, though, about not really understanding people's contexts or their backgrounds
You know, where they're coming from and how it changes everything once you understand a little bit more about people, you know
And I don't know, did the teacher ever apologize to you just before we get to how it's impacted you?
I don't think so
Growing up is difficult, I think, for everybody
And I mentioned the context of being adopted, growing up in a majority white town, not identifying as white
Like, you add these additional kind of marginalizing identities, and like it just makes growing up more difficult
And I reflect a lot on, like, when I was an adolescent or when I was younger and how, you know, when you're young
You just don't really know how to channel your angst or your emotions
That's the case for any adolescent, but then when you add in these other layers
I was not equipped to articulate why I was acting out, why I was kind of cranky or sarcastic
And I also don't think my teachers were either, to be super honest
I'm like, I'm an educator now, I'm an adjunct, I've also taught middle school, high school abroad
I've done a lot of workshops, like, I very much have a teacher's bone in my body
And I always try to think about this kind of, like, other people's perspectives
I don't know if my public school teachers on Long Island, I don't know, I genuinely don't
Because they dealt with a very homogenous population
I don't know if they were thinking about what, what are, why is this student getting so upset?
Why is he acting this way? Why is, you know, this is why diversity is so important
Exposure to diverse experiences is so important just because it expands your empathy
So I, I don't know, I don't think they apologize
But I wouldn't be surprised if they thought that it was more of a me thing
Instead of something that they could have improved on
I don't know, I don't know whether it will or grudge towards them
But I also don't know their contacts either
That's a good point, I can't help, we were talking a little bit before
But I can't help, whenever somebody tells me a story
I do think of my own experiences and I, when I was in sixth grade
I had a school teacher who was mad at me and he basically said
I'm gonna go to the principal and get you kicked out of here
For, you know, for being, whatever I was being a smart aleck
He said unless you go into, back into the room, he took me out of the hall
I said unless you go back in the room and apologize to the entire class
For being such an arrogant little kid or whatever
So I went back into the room and I'm crying my eyes out saying
I'm really sorry, please don't kick me out, I'm sorry
And the teacher looked and he started laughing and he said
Get out of here, React, you think I was really gonna kick you out?
And I mean, I'm in sixth grade, I don't know if the guy's gonna kick me out
Totally
You know, it threw me off for two years because the rest of the time I'm thinking
I can't ever, no, I can't ask any, not that I was gonna ask anybody out in seventh or eighth grade
But if I like somebody, it would be like, that's the kid who's crying in front of the class
You know, not that everybody else necessarily remembers, but I certainly did
And, Jay, how old are you now?
You're right, I'm 67
Right, and 60 years later, you still remember this thing
And I think this just, there's so, this just goes to this point of like how impressionable youth are
And like how deeply, how much responsibility as adults, people that youth are witnessing, watching
Experiencing like how sincere that responsibility is
Because you're always on display or always sitting in an example
And you can leave an indelible memory that will last for 60, more than 60 years on children
Well, amen to that, I mean, I will not preach after this, but I will say what I've been saying for years
Which is, I think we should pay pre-K and kindergarten teachers the most
And then grade school teachers the second most, and high school teachers the third most
And professors the least most, because the earlier you impact these children, the more profoundly experienced
You know what I'm saying? So like, for me, I was, I think, harmed in sixth grade, let's just say
If I had had that, I'd have an experience in high school or college
I would have brushed it off a little bit more, I think
And it's like, the younger you are, the more important it is that you have teachers who can understand
Different contexts and what their words mean, not telling a kid that he's going through a simulated
Ellis Island, and you know, those poor people live on Ellis Island, what they had to go through
I understand trying to get your fifth graders to understand that, but
Traumatizing you to make a point doesn't seem like good pedagogy
But that's just me, but
So how do you think it's impacted your life? I think you've sort of articulated already, Eric, but
And you are a teacher, so I suppose you can just talk to us about it
Yeah, I think this is just one poignant example of a lot of things that I've gone through in my life
That has really just expanded my perspective and empathy for other people
But it's interesting about as you gain more perspective as it relates to understanding others
The more perspective actually I think leads to you understanding less
So what I mean is I work in what's called impact investing, so I invest in communities of color around the country
In a variety of ways, through investing within also educational empowerment
A lot of these people and communities are not my identities, they're not adopted, they're not immigrants
They're not Asian Americans, they're not male, they're black, Hispanic, indigenous women
There's just a variety of identities in communities, so it is impossible for me to fully understand where they're coming from
But as I gain more and more experience working with more and more stakeholders and perspectives
I think I'm more and more realizing that the goal is not to fully understand anyone, that's not possible
The goal is to be more open and to be more flexible and to give people more grace when you can
Because you really just, even beyond those identities, there are family situations, personal finance, cultural situations, generational trauma
There's just so many other markers that make us who we are
And in my story I talked about this is the way that I look and this is my birth story
But that didn't speak about my situation at home or with my parents or any of that stuff
So we just don't know that
So it's really, this story has just helped me understand as an adult or as someone that has more influence or as a role model for other people
How important it is for me to maintain that kind of like open curiosity and that expansiveness as I try to be empathetic
And not look at it as a journey to be like, well, if I talk to X amount of people, I will understand all of the demographics
So therefore, you don't have to tell me, I get what, I almost never say like, if I relate to someone, I almost never say like, I know what you're going through
I'll be like, I can relate to that in some way, because there's literally no way that I could know exactly what they're going through
And I feel like no one understood what I was going through when I was in fifth grade going through the Ellis Island simulation
And I don't think rewriting it would be, I wish that I had an adopted teacher that understood the difficulties of registering for literally baseball
I think I just, I think I probably would have been saved if there was a teacher that had this attitude of describing about being like, let's inquire a little bit more, why do we react in that way
Like what might be going on on the scenes, not looking to understand those facts and like just understand them discreetly, but really just to give more grace and more patience to other people
Because life's just really, really complex and it's, so it makes it great, but also it makes it deeply unknowable too
Man, that's just, you just way smarter than you should be at this age, man, but that's really great
I mean, that's really, I agree with you a thousand percent, when I was a school teacher, I had a policy, I said I don't want to hear the word same in my classroom
You can say you had a similar something, but you can't say same, that irritates me when someone says, you know, like you said, I know exactly how you feel
It's like, no man, you don't, and I don't know exactly how you feel either, I don't exactly know, I have some sense of it, but I certainly don't, you know, not smart enough to go there
So you moved me with your story because, because I think a good teacher, and you are a teacher, learns from their own experiences
We all are going to make our own mistakes, but the idea of being a teacher who understands, hey, I don't know the whole story of this human being that I'm working with and all that
It really makes you for, I'm sure, a far better teacher, and you're teaching, and you said at City Colleges in New York right now
Yeah, I'm actually in one of our classrooms now, I teach in the Masters of Public Administration program for City, the City College of New York, which is the founding college within the City University of New York system
And just as a plug to CUNY, CUNY is the largest urban public university system in the country, and I'm just so proud to work here because it's serving just middle class, working class, students of color in New York
And I'm really seen as one of the leaders in terms of helping students increase their earnings and socioeconomic status because it's relatively quite affordable
And just the ethos of my colleagues, faculty administrative, is like we really are trying to create an equitable educational environment for the diversity that is our city
Alright, well thank you Eric, I really appreciate you taking the time
I actually went to Hunter College by the way back in the day, and that's part of the system I believe
But anyway, thank you for coming on the show man, I really appreciate you taking the time, big fan of yours, and very moving story
So until next time, this is Jay Reaac asking you all to please stay safe out there and try not to hurt anybody