Pull up a chair and tell me your memory Why does it matter to you?
I want to hear your story, your point of view Tell me what happened to you
Hi and welcome back to Tell Me What Happened, the podcast that teaches folks from all walks of life
From all over the world, each one telling us one childhood story, one true experience
And then they tell us how that experience, that event has impacted who they are today
I'm your host Jay Rehak and like you I've had my share of childhood experiences
Some of them traumatic, some of them dramatic, some of them actually quite pleasurable
But I always like to think that what's ever happened to me has made me a better person
Now I'm not saying that's actually true, but I'm telling you that's what I like to think
Tell me what happened is sponsored by Sidelining Publishing, publishers of quality books
Including Susan Seller's classics, I've Got Peace in My Fingers, and One Little Act of Kindness
Both available on Amazon or wherever quality books are sold
They're perfect for the holiday season for the little ones
Alright, today I have as my guest Tammy Fisher
Tammy is a therapist in Texas and Colorado who owns the private practice, the pleasure principles
Welcome to the show Tammy
Thank you Jay, I'm excited to be here
I know you have a very interesting career, we're not necessarily going to talk about that
But I would like to hear your story, your childhood story, are you ready to tell it?
I think so
Alright well Tammy what I'm going to do is I'm going to mute myself, get out of the way
I won't interrupt you at all
But when you're finished I will be asking you exactly one question
And that one question is how do you think that the story that you told impacted or impacts who you are today?
So take it away Tammy Fisher
Alright, thank you Jay
So as I was kind of thinking about my childhood memory that's come up that I don't really get to talk about that much
So I decided to tell this one and in order to tell it I got to give you a little bit of history
I grew up in Austin, Texas
And in the 70s or so, or let me back it up, Austin apparently was very divided racially at the time
The time that the Board of Education came in and said we need to desegregate
Texas was on the tail end of that which is common for Texans to be maybe at the last of a lot of things that happen that they come around to
And they didn't really desegregate like they were supposed to
So when the 70s came around the actual federal government sued Austin AISD, the school district
Because they didn't desegregate right and they pretty much said you have to do this
So their way of dealing with it at the time was to do one-way busing
Meaning taking kids, people of color, particularly the black community and busing them over to white schools
They did that for probably about a decade or for a few years and then stopped doing it
And it I guess helped somebody really did not desegregate the city at all
So when the 80s came around they decided to do two-way busing
Meaning that they took African-American kiddos and put them over in South Southwest Austin and vice versa
The more people that are from the white neighborhoods or schools and put them in what was predominantly the black schools
And so by sixth grade I was one of those students that was bused over to East Austin
At the time my neighborhood was probably the most South Southwest Austin
So I went to a school that I had never been to, didn't know anybody
Maybe knew a couple of people on the bus or whatever went over there
And so this is the moment in time when I discovered that I was white
It's not that I didn't know I was white, but I really didn't know that it had an effect on anybody
Because I was in an environment where I was in a homogenous society in my area
My little bubble, right? My neighbors were probably all white, my school was pretty much all white
So I didn't have to think about my skin color, it never even occurred to me
So now I'm put into this environment where I am one of the minority
And I quickly learned that it had an effect on people
So the story in particular that I wanted to tell is that first week of school or so
As I'm trying to get to know people, I was I found myself kind of circled and circled at the side of a building
There was the sidewall of a brick building, I was talking with some friends
I kind of wasn't paying too much attention, friends kind of walked away
And when I looked up, I was encircled by people that were from the local community
So these kids were all people of color and they stood and kind of watched me for a while
And I didn't really know what to say, my friends were gone, I looked around
I finally said, yes, you know, or what? I don't something real eloquent for an 11 year old, what?
And somebody answered, we heard you were racist
And I was really shocked by that because I didn't, I was not one that really gossiped about people or talked about anything
And I didn't know where it was coming from, I didn't know what to say
I finally said, well, where did you hear that?
And of course there was no real reply, there might have been something I don't remember that part really exactly
But they continued to stand there while I stood alone
My friends were watching from afar, mind you, and friends, quote unquote
And so they kept saying, yeah, we heard that you're racist, is it true?
I was like, well, no, it's not true, I don't know why that would be said
And they continued, we continued to have this standoff until finally I said, what?
I got a little brave said what? And somebody said, well, we're standing here waiting to see how long it will take you to cry
Well, honestly, it probably wasn't too much longer that I wanted to cry, but after they said that I was determined not to
I knew that was the wrong move
So I got a little sassy and a little brave for myself, even though I was really pretty intimidated and said, well, I guess we'll be standing here a while
And then I finally kind of moved through the crowd and was able to get away from that
But that kind of set the stage of me looking around and noticing how I didn't fit in
And it was never necessarily a problem in my homogenized school, right?
So I had this mix of intimidation, you know, fear and anxiety, but yet really curious, wanting to understand what it was about my skin color
We didn't really talk about this in my home, so I didn't understand how other people might have felt about me who didn't know me
So my whole experience of sixth grade was trying to figure out how people were watching dynamics
What was I doing? It was a lot of self-reflection of what I was doing that might have impacted how they saw me
Maybe I was doing things that I didn't even know that I was doing that created this dynamic
So that's pretty much my story. I realized I was white in sixth grade
Wow, that's a very interesting story. I do understand to an extent what you're talking about
I also grew up in a very homogenous neighborhood
So I understand to the extent possible that being a sixth grader and suddenly not being perceived through who you thought you were or whatever
It seems to me that you held your ground pretty well. I have to say that. I respect your, well, who said that, you know, about me
And the idea that somebody is trying to instigate something and you're sort of not taking the bait
But anyway, how do you think, Tammy, that that experience, how do you think that impacted who you are today as a person?
That's a great question. I hadn't even put more thought to it, even though it may seem obvious to other people that might know me
Looking internally, it was a little harder for me to define
I know at the time in sixth grade, Jay, I think I worked really hard on not being white, to be honest
Back then, I think I tried to convince people that maybe I was European in some way like Italian
Maybe if I could pass for Italian, I didn't know if I could pass for Hispanic, but you know, something that gave me some color to try to relate
And that may be part of it is I do try to meet people where they are with things. Obviously that can't always be skin color
But trying to really understand something about people and meet them where they are, learn about them and other cultures
That grew with me. I've always been an observer of people from the time I was really little that I can remember and dynamics
So eventually I went into college to study psychology, to study people
One of my favorite classes was the diversity class, right? And even world religion class to help understand how people saw different things
My parents didn't teach me about other cultures. They taught me what they wanted to teach me, right? The values that they were handed down
Eventually after undergrad, I ended up going to school to be a therapist
And again, one of my favorite classes was diversity. It brought out so much emotion from people and big responses
That continued to shape me on how I see people of always believing people have a story
The reason I was, you know, responded to in such a way in sixth grade is because they had an experience of white people or white peers, whatever that was
Whether it was something their parents taught them or culturally what they were taught, what they personally experienced
So it was little to do with me, but it had some to do with me and my actions, and it had others to do with what their experience was
And that experience motivates me to do a lot of things in my personal and professional life of learning, meeting people where they are, learning their stories
They also have a story. Mine's not the only story. So that is shaped where I've been very open to a lot of things where it could be relationships and how people have relationship styles
My specialty is sexuality. And so it's open. It opens my mind up to what other people see as adventurous or normal kind of thing
And then I would be remiss to not mention that my husband, my current husband happens to be African American
I don't know if because of the environment I was raised in, I don't know if that would have been conducive to marrying somebody outside of my race at the time
I would say my grandparents were probably very racist. So my parents probably wouldn't have welcomed the idea in my teenage years or early 20s of bringing home somebody that was of color
But by the time I met my husband, I was in my 40s. That all is very different, right? They were very welcoming, very open, but I don't think that they certainly weren't raised that way either
I don't know that I could have been that open at that age without having this experience. I don't know, Jay, right? If I hadn't had this experience in sixth grade, what I have been open to other cultures and been friends and end up marrying somebody that's of a different ethnic background than me
Well, it's interesting that you mentioned all that only because, I'm just going to say, the experience that you told us about could have gone the other way for you in the sense where you'd say, you know, here I am just living my life or whatever, oblivious to race
In the sense that I didn't really think too much about it and then you sort of confronted immediately and I was thinking about it in terms of when you first got bust to the other side of Austin or whatever it was, however it worked
Was your family concerned? I guess you weren't at the time, but you know, almost immediately you did deal with an issue where people were sort of challenging you were trying to figure out, you know, is this someone that we can trust or someone we can't trust?
And so the rest of that experience that was the first was the rest of the year. I know you said you were sort of doing self exploration, but were you also doing some sense of watching behind your back like somehow you got to watch out and you're going to get jumped or something else was there any sense of fear or was it resolved relatively quickly that way
No, I wasn't fearful necessarily physically, right, I wasn't that it was more of being the focus of something that I wasn't used to. Right, so the focus so if there's something that embarrassing happened to me, that could have been exploited right that could have been the focus in and I think that
That's probably typical of all sixth graders for the most part, but I think it was magnified then of you know as a thing to go after someone and to see how they are I think I was being tested. Right, how did I handle thing?
How did I handle being picked on how did I because between cultures it seems like it was okay and it was normal. And I didn't have that normal of certain kind of jokes or, you know, things that they would say these comebacks that I was not good at and still probably not all that good about about doing, but that was a
learning curve for me on I was a very sensitive kiddo to maybe toughen up a little bit not take things so personally as for my parents. When I brought this up to my mom, as a matter of fact, my husband was gracious enough to take me down memory lane yesterday.
And we drove by the elementary and I was able to take go out and take pictures and stuff and that was a really cool thing to do. When I asked my mom about it, she said I said what do you remember about that about the busing and why this was happening.
And she said yes it was she remembered it was to kind of desegregate as well to kind of even out the ratios of the schools. Her concern wasn't so much that at least that's what she's saying today 40 years later.
But at the time, she's what she thought she was concerned about it's because it wasn't underperforming school but that's exactly why they were trying to mix it up and even it out for resources.
So she was maybe concerned more about that at least that's what she says on record. And, you know, I think for the most part that is true, but I believe that there probably was a fear for my parents, knowing I was going into an area that we didn't we weren't really, we weren't a part of that
community, right so we didn't know people, I would be the minority and not having some kind of support system. I'm sure that they were somewhat concerned about my well being so to speak not necessarily physical but you know just the connection that I would may or may not have.
Did you have brothers or sisters anybody else go there with you or you on your own in that regard.
Yeah, I'm an only child. So it was just me only child which may have heightened my parents, you know protection bubble, being an only child and you know all the, the things I guess go with that the stereotypes that go with that of laser focused on me, they might have felt
even more protective. They were also concerned about being on a bus that traveled 45 minutes to an hour across town. It was brutal for both people that were being bused from one area to the other. I mean that was just a horrific ride through downtown Austin and I'm going to tell you it's
not any better now if it's not worse.
Well, your childhood experience did inform who you are today you're a therapist, you've studied psychology. You seem happy enough to so hopefully the, I would say verbal abuse that you took as a sixth grader doesn't seem to have
shut out other cultures as I can say is that sometimes when people get bullied and that's what you were getting verbally bullied anyway, you can you can have a reaction of like well in that case I'm going to write off a culture I'm not saying it's right but that's what happens sometimes to young people up there,
victimized by groups of people etc. But you seem like you came out alright here, helping the world with your therapy that's a wonderful thing.
I'm really grateful.
I'm so sorry I'm really grateful for that experience Jay I didn't even realize it it probably did bother me for maybe a couple years of, you know, feeling that was unfair. It was unfair to be judged without really being known.
I felt like that for a little while, but I think instead of going a bad direction I think it was more of, I've always probably been real self reflective and like this perfectionist what am I doing to contribute to this what, what am I putting out there, and in just watching
what I say what I do it made me more aware that I don't know if I would have had that awareness quite like that so I'm very grateful for that experience and think that it did broaden my horizons much better than I ever would have if I didn't have it.
I would call that genius because I believe that if you take any experience and you're able to study it or reflect on it and come out a better person for I think that's a sign of genius because like I say there are many people in the world who when they have any sort of an
experience that's negative and I would still call it a negative experience they would leave it in the negative they'd never be able to somehow process it into a positive where you say you know I learned something and I this whole idea of asking yourself and what am I saying what am I doing how am I
projecting myself in some way that somebody might take offense to it you you aren't even aware of the fact that it might be hurtful harmful somehow intimidating to somebody else and and that ability to sort of know that especially I do have to go back to what you said about
sixth graders I taught sixth grade for a number of years and that's a tough year to process any information about the world because it's hard to feel comfortable at that age in terms of who you are and how you fit into a world a bigger world I speak my own sixth grade
experience but also as a sixth grade teacher I saw it would you know young people were trying to find themselves or articulate who they were without feeling of somehow inadequate or wrong or just whatever and people act out do stupid things to to sort of prove
absurdities a day or so I'm glad you're all right.
You want to hear something funny Jay what's ironic is somebody from that era somebody that was in my class reached out to me on Facebook not too long ago in the past year or so and friended me and thought you know I thought yeah the name sounds familiar okay.
And he I believe now looking back he was one of the kids if not he might have been the very one that asked me if I was racist and reached out when I started all together I thought I think this is the guy this is the one and what's really extra ironic and funny is that then he tried to like kind of ask me out.
That is a great tag to your story. Well thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for having me.
I'd also like to thank our sponsor, silenting publishing. And finally before I forget if any of my listeners would like to be on tell me what happened you can email me at jay c r e h a k at gmail.com.
I'd love to hear your story and so would my listeners. So until next time. This is Jay Rehack asking you all to please stay safe out there and try not to hurt anybody.