WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.600 Welcome to the deep dive. This is where we take 00:00:02.600 --> 00:00:05.500 that essential reading pile you've got and, you 00:00:05.500 --> 00:00:08.060 know, really distill it into something useful, 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:11.039 some actionable insight. Today, we're digging 00:00:11.039 --> 00:00:13.279 into some excerpts from Gary Ackerman's work. 00:00:13.539 --> 00:00:15.859 It's all about school leaders, technology, and 00:00:15.859 --> 00:00:19.539 this thing he calls spin. So our mission today 00:00:19.539 --> 00:00:21.739 really is to unpack this kind of fascinating 00:00:21.739 --> 00:00:24.800 paradox. We're looking at why these, you know, 00:00:25.079 --> 00:00:27.760 highly competent leaders, principals, superintendents 00:00:27.760 --> 00:00:30.239 often feel like they have to rely on a carefully 00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:33.380 constructed story, sort of a positive facade, 00:00:33.380 --> 00:00:36.280 you could say, to paper over some, well, pretty 00:00:36.280 --> 00:00:38.810 deep systemic issues. And the really interesting 00:00:38.810 --> 00:00:40.710 part, according to the source material, is that 00:00:40.710 --> 00:00:43.670 this whole mechanism seems to get triggered overwhelmingly 00:00:43.670 --> 00:00:46.570 by one specific area. Right. The area where they 00:00:46.570 --> 00:00:49.909 feel, frankly, profoundly vulnerable. Information 00:00:49.909 --> 00:00:52.350 technology. Yeah. And it's a crucial point because 00:00:52.350 --> 00:00:54.869 Ackerman describes this spin, or maybe we would 00:00:54.869 --> 00:00:57.609 call it careful framing, not as some kind of 00:00:57.609 --> 00:00:59.549 character flaw, but more like a fact of life. 00:00:59.890 --> 00:01:02.789 Something demanded by the job, by the whole organizational 00:01:02.789 --> 00:01:05.890 setup. School leaders face uncomfortable situations 00:01:05.890 --> 00:01:08.969 all the time, right? And there's this expectation 00:01:08.969 --> 00:01:12.430 often from higher -ups or politically powerful 00:01:12.430 --> 00:01:14.829 individuals, as he puts it, that they need to 00:01:14.829 --> 00:01:17.109 frame those situations in a positive light. It's 00:01:17.109 --> 00:01:19.150 almost built into the job description managing 00:01:19.150 --> 00:01:22.200 perception. So let's start there with that vulnerability. 00:01:22.319 --> 00:01:24.099 I mean, if a school leader is great at curriculum, 00:01:24.599 --> 00:01:27.879 handles budgets, manages staff effectively, why 00:01:27.879 --> 00:01:30.560 does technology management specifically trigger 00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:34.099 this need for narrative control? What is it about 00:01:34.099 --> 00:01:37.060 managing the school network or the tech infrastructure 00:01:37.060 --> 00:01:38.980 that's so different from all the other things 00:01:38.980 --> 00:01:41.379 they juggle? Well, the author really isolates 00:01:41.379 --> 00:01:44.459 this well. He contrasts IT with pretty much every 00:01:44.459 --> 00:01:47.120 other job in the school. The deep insecurity 00:01:47.120 --> 00:01:50.219 here, it seems, it comes down to functional competence. 00:01:50.459 --> 00:01:52.980 Can they actually do the job if needed? And the 00:01:52.980 --> 00:01:55.140 finding is that out of all the jobs performed 00:01:55.140 --> 00:01:58.180 in a school, managing IT is the one the leadership 00:01:58.180 --> 00:02:01.760 is least prepared to assume if, you know, disaster 00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:03.920 struck and they had to step in themselves. That's 00:02:03.920 --> 00:02:06.840 such a powerful distinction, isn't it? Competency 00:02:06.840 --> 00:02:09.289 versus just capacity. Like if a teacher calls 00:02:09.289 --> 00:02:12.569 in sick, maybe a sixth grade teacher, the principal 00:02:12.569 --> 00:02:14.770 probably could cover that class for a day. They 00:02:14.770 --> 00:02:17.270 likely have that background somewhere. And the 00:02:17.270 --> 00:02:18.889 source material really highlights this. It says 00:02:18.889 --> 00:02:21.849 a leader could probably fill in for an admin 00:02:21.849 --> 00:02:24.930 assistant, right? Yeah, or supervise the custodial 00:02:24.930 --> 00:02:27.469 staff, maybe even cover for a specialized teacher 00:02:27.469 --> 00:02:29.909 for a short time. They've got a baseline understanding, 00:02:29.930 --> 00:02:32.430 at least. Exactly. And the source points out 00:02:32.430 --> 00:02:35.409 the exceptions, the roles needing really specific, 00:02:35.849 --> 00:02:37.990 often certified skills. Like the school nurse. 00:02:38.150 --> 00:02:40.610 The school nurse, the bus driver, those are the 00:02:40.610 --> 00:02:43.870 obvious ones. And right alongside them, IT management. 00:02:44.310 --> 00:02:47.259 Wow. It just highlights this functional knowledge 00:02:47.259 --> 00:02:50.139 gap. It's so wide that when a leader faces a 00:02:50.139 --> 00:02:52.500 complex tech failure, maybe the network crashes 00:02:52.500 --> 00:02:54.879 or there's a security breach or some big software 00:02:54.879 --> 00:02:57.560 rollout goes wrong, they're basically paralyzed, 00:02:57.879 --> 00:03:00.319 functionally speaking. The text describes them 00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:03.819 as simply being stuck. Think about that. You've 00:03:03.819 --> 00:03:05.780 got someone managing million -dollar budgets, 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:08.800 the education, the safety of hundreds or thousands 00:03:08.800 --> 00:03:11.439 of kids, and yet the moment the Wi -Fi goes down 00:03:11.439 --> 00:03:13.219 across the building, they're completely reliant 00:03:13.219 --> 00:03:15.159 on someone else just to explain what's happening. 00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:18.900 The managerial irony there is pretty thick. It 00:03:18.900 --> 00:03:20.819 really is. And that paralysis, that feeling of 00:03:20.819 --> 00:03:24.719 being stuck, that's the exact trigger. for needing 00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:28.479 this facade, this spin. Because if you're paralyzed 00:03:28.479 --> 00:03:31.319 by the complexity, you have to get information 00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:33.639 from somewhere. Right, to present something to 00:03:33.639 --> 00:03:35.780 the outside world. You can't just say, I don't 00:03:35.780 --> 00:03:38.479 know. Exactly. You need a narrative. OK, so let's 00:03:38.479 --> 00:03:40.819 trace that mechanism. How does that personal 00:03:40.819 --> 00:03:43.960 knowledge gap turn into, well, what can look 00:03:43.960 --> 00:03:46.180 like a public narrative failure? How does the 00:03:46.180 --> 00:03:48.360 IT professional who's just trying to fix the 00:03:48.360 --> 00:03:51.400 technical problem become the sort of unintended 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:54.319 source of the leader's spin? It seems to be purely 00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:57.000 a function of necessity combined with the structure 00:03:57.000 --> 00:03:59.960 of things. Because technology is the issue they 00:03:59.960 --> 00:04:02.539 feel least comfortable deciding on, the school 00:04:02.539 --> 00:04:04.800 leaders basically have to accept what their IT 00:04:04.800 --> 00:04:07.800 people say and do, both about what the problem 00:04:07.800 --> 00:04:10.419 is and what the proposed solution entails. They 00:04:10.419 --> 00:04:12.020 just have to take their word for it. Pretty much. 00:04:12.080 --> 00:04:14.900 And here's the crucial bit. They accept this 00:04:14.900 --> 00:04:17.420 information because, as the author puts it, they 00:04:17.420 --> 00:04:20.899 have no better information and no way to either 00:04:20.899 --> 00:04:24.019 confirm or refute it. It's like, you know, if 00:04:24.019 --> 00:04:25.720 you take your car to the mechanic and you don't 00:04:25.720 --> 00:04:28.699 know anything about cars, and they tell you the 00:04:28.699 --> 00:04:31.420 flux capacitor needs replacing because the chronosynclastic 00:04:31.420 --> 00:04:33.920 infundibulum is misaligned. It's just nod and 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:36.079 ask how much it'll cost. Exactly. You have no 00:04:36.079 --> 00:04:38.699 real choice but to trust their explanation. The 00:04:38.699 --> 00:04:41.079 leader often has no internal objective way to 00:04:41.079 --> 00:04:42.939 know if the technical story they're getting truly 00:04:42.939 --> 00:04:45.560 reflects the situation's severity. Or, maybe 00:04:45.560 --> 00:04:48.459 more importantly, if the fix being proposed is 00:04:48.459 --> 00:04:51.259 genuinely effective or just... you know, kicking 00:04:51.259 --> 00:04:53.439 the can down the road. So the leader gets this 00:04:53.439 --> 00:04:56.060 technical explanation for why something failed 00:04:56.060 --> 00:04:58.740 or why it's not working right from the IT department. 00:04:59.339 --> 00:05:01.779 And because they can't actually verify the tank 00:05:01.779 --> 00:05:03.939 details, they have to take that message, translate 00:05:03.939 --> 00:05:05.800 it into something people can understand, and 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:07.860 immediately put a positive spin on it to present 00:05:07.860 --> 00:05:10.360 to the school board or parents or the public. 00:05:10.600 --> 00:05:12.990 Right. So the narrative control, the spin, becomes 00:05:12.990 --> 00:05:15.790 necessary just to bridge that gap, the gap between 00:05:15.790 --> 00:05:18.110 the leader's own lack of technical understanding 00:05:18.110 --> 00:05:20.410 and the public's expectation that they're fully 00:05:20.410 --> 00:05:23.629 in control and competent. And that creates this 00:05:23.629 --> 00:05:26.509 sort of self -perpetuating cycle of reliance, 00:05:26.610 --> 00:05:28.750 doesn't it? The leader takes info they can't 00:05:28.750 --> 00:05:31.629 really verify, polishes it up into a positive 00:05:31.629 --> 00:05:34.420 statement. maybe about decisive action being 00:05:34.420 --> 00:05:36.980 taken, and presents that as effective management. 00:05:37.160 --> 00:05:39.500 The whole external image is built on this foundation 00:05:39.500 --> 00:05:42.139 of internal, unverified trust. Let's talk about 00:05:42.139 --> 00:05:44.560 the social side of this. The author brings up 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:46.399 a really interesting point about whether leaders 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:50.279 actually believe their own spin, and suggests 00:05:50.279 --> 00:05:52.500 maybe we shouldn't be too quick to judge them, 00:05:52.680 --> 00:05:55.720 to blame them for seeming, well, maybe delusional 00:05:55.720 --> 00:05:59.420 when they're defending these complicated often 00:05:59.420 --> 00:06:02.060 flawed tech systems. That's a really important 00:06:02.060 --> 00:06:04.879 psychological point, I think. We tend to see 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:08.160 delusion as like a personal failing, but the 00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:10.819 source connects it right back to the immense 00:06:10.819 --> 00:06:13.740 external pressure these leaders are under. Ah, 00:06:13.779 --> 00:06:15.319 so they're not just making it up in isolation? 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:17.959 Not at all. The leader is absolutely not operating 00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:20.860 in a vacuum. Their boss, maybe the superintendent, 00:06:21.019 --> 00:06:23.910 the school board or other... politically powerful 00:06:23.910 --> 00:06:26.230 individuals. They often have their own vested 00:06:26.230 --> 00:06:28.470 interests, maybe political interests, in the 00:06:28.470 --> 00:06:30.410 success of whatever tech initiative is being 00:06:30.410 --> 00:06:33.050 discussed. The source says they want the narrative 00:06:33.050 --> 00:06:35.389 of the spin to be true. OK, that changes the 00:06:35.389 --> 00:06:37.470 whole dynamic, doesn't it? It means the leader 00:06:37.470 --> 00:06:40.009 isn't just spinning alone. They're potentially 00:06:40.009 --> 00:06:43.170 collaborating, maybe unconsciously, with the 00:06:43.170 --> 00:06:45.129 system around them to maintain that positive 00:06:45.129 --> 00:06:49.060 story. Like, they can't admit. that the big new 00:06:49.060 --> 00:06:51.399 multi -million dollar tablet program is actually 00:06:51.399 --> 00:06:54.120 a technical nightmare because everyone from the 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:56.000 company that sold it to the politicians who funded 00:06:56.000 --> 00:06:58.279 it has staked their reputation on it working. 00:06:58.519 --> 00:07:01.540 Precisely. It becomes a kind of shared institutional 00:07:01.540 --> 00:07:05.180 narrative, almost a necessary reality. If admitting 00:07:05.180 --> 00:07:08.240 failure means huge political fallout or maybe 00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:11.459 losing funding or just intense public criticism, 00:07:12.019 --> 00:07:14.660 then everyone involved kind of aligns their story 00:07:14.660 --> 00:07:17.279 to support the positive version, even if the 00:07:17.279 --> 00:07:19.519 actual experience for teachers and students on 00:07:19.519 --> 00:07:22.360 the ground is, well, terrible. So the leader's 00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:24.459 apparent delusion isn't necessarily personal. 00:07:24.939 --> 00:07:27.240 It's more like a high -stakes survival strategy. 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:29.819 In many ways, yes. They're delivering the narrative 00:07:29.819 --> 00:07:32.019 that the system itself demands from them. It 00:07:32.019 --> 00:07:34.959 really paints a picture of maybe systemic complicity, 00:07:35.259 --> 00:07:37.060 where the sheer pressure to appear competent 00:07:37.060 --> 00:07:39.660 across every single domain, including these highly 00:07:39.660 --> 00:07:42.279 technical ones, just overrides the impulse or 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:44.759 maybe even the ability to be fully transparent 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:47.360 about deep technical problems. Yeah, if IT success 00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:49.600 is the mandated outcome, then IT success is what 00:07:49.600 --> 00:07:52.060 will be reported, regardless of the ground truth. 00:07:52.379 --> 00:07:55.500 Which raises the big question then. If this dynamic 00:07:55.500 --> 00:07:58.300 is so common, maybe even unavoidable sometimes, 00:07:58.699 --> 00:08:02.019 for school leaders, is there a way out? Does 00:08:02.019 --> 00:08:04.060 the leader just have to accept this situation? 00:08:04.540 --> 00:08:06.319 Or is there a practical path forward? Do they 00:08:06.319 --> 00:08:09.199 need to become tech experts themselves? Or is 00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:11.360 there another way to break this cycle of spin? 00:08:11.550 --> 00:08:13.370 Well, thankfully, the source material doesn't 00:08:13.370 --> 00:08:15.769 just leave us with the problem. It does pivot 00:08:15.769 --> 00:08:17.949 towards solutions, towards some constructive 00:08:17.949 --> 00:08:20.689 encouragement. The author is quite clear. It 00:08:20.689 --> 00:08:22.750 does not have to be that way. OK, that's good 00:08:22.750 --> 00:08:25.509 to hear. So what specific steps does Ackerman 00:08:25.509 --> 00:08:28.329 suggest? How can school leaders actually reclaim 00:08:28.329 --> 00:08:31.610 some agency here and avoid relying so heavily 00:08:31.610 --> 00:08:34.029 on this kind of framing? The overall aim seems 00:08:34.029 --> 00:08:36.909 pretty straightforward. It's about gaining competency 00:08:36.909 --> 00:08:39.669 and, maybe just as importantly, confidence in 00:08:39.669 --> 00:08:43.250 this area. The solutions suggested really focus 00:08:43.250 --> 00:08:45.590 on changing the fundamental relationship between 00:08:45.590 --> 00:08:48.850 the leader and their technical staff. It's about 00:08:48.850 --> 00:08:51.009 stopping seeing IT as this kind of mysterious 00:08:51.009 --> 00:08:53.350 black box you can't understand and starting to 00:08:53.350 --> 00:08:55.149 integrate it more fully into the core management 00:08:55.149 --> 00:08:57.669 structure like any other department. Makes sense. 00:08:58.090 --> 00:09:00.649 So what are the concrete actions? Well, the first 00:09:00.649 --> 00:09:02.730 one mentioned is foundational, really. It's about 00:09:02.730 --> 00:09:05.690 making good decisions when hiring IT professionals. 00:09:05.909 --> 00:09:08.110 Right. Which sounds like basic good management 00:09:08.110 --> 00:09:10.929 advice. Right. But hang on. If the leader lacks 00:09:10.929 --> 00:09:13.509 the technical knowledge in the first place, how 00:09:13.509 --> 00:09:15.970 do they even know what good hiring looks like 00:09:15.970 --> 00:09:18.909 for an IT role? That seems like the original 00:09:18.909 --> 00:09:21.779 problem again. That's the million dollar question, 00:09:21.820 --> 00:09:24.299 isn't it? It's a real practical challenge. If 00:09:24.299 --> 00:09:26.639 you can't really evaluate the technical claims 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:29.960 on someone's resume or ask deep technical questions 00:09:29.960 --> 00:09:32.600 in an interview, you might end up judging based 00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:35.399 on, I don't know, how confident they seem or 00:09:35.399 --> 00:09:37.700 maybe superficial things. Or maybe just hiring 00:09:37.700 --> 00:09:39.259 someone who sounds like they know what they're 00:09:39.259 --> 00:09:41.200 talking about. Exactly, which is why the source 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:43.740 must mean something deeper than just running 00:09:43.740 --> 00:09:46.220 a good interview process. So what's the next 00:09:46.220 --> 00:09:48.080 step? This is where the second point becomes 00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:51.179 really crucial, I think. It says, you must then 00:09:51.179 --> 00:09:54.100 develop those IT professionals you hire. Develop 00:09:54.100 --> 00:09:56.740 them into people you and your teachers trust. 00:09:56.899 --> 00:10:01.360 Ah, OK. Trust. That shifts the focus. Completely. 00:10:01.580 --> 00:10:03.940 It moves the emphasis away from the leader needing 00:10:03.940 --> 00:10:07.559 to evaluate raw technical skill, which, as we've 00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:09.860 established, they probably can't reliably do, 00:10:10.419 --> 00:10:12.879 and shifts it towards evaluating things the leader 00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:15.879 can assess. Things like integrity, communication 00:10:15.879 --> 00:10:19.019 skills, collaboration, alignment with the school's 00:10:19.019 --> 00:10:22.259 educational mission. So it's less about hiring 00:10:22.259 --> 00:10:25.340 the smartest tech geniuses and more about hiring 00:10:25.340 --> 00:10:28.399 a trustworthy partner. Precisely. If the leader 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:31.320 focuses on building a relationship based on transparency 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:34.139 and partnership, then they create an internal 00:10:34.139 --> 00:10:37.179 way to verify information. If they trust the 00:10:37.179 --> 00:10:39.320 person giving the report, they're much more likely 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:41.480 to trust the content of the report. And then 00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:43.299 the need for that external positive framing, 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:46.000 the spin, it just naturally decreases. Because 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:47.700 the core information they're working with is 00:10:47.700 --> 00:10:50.539 actually reliable and hopefully understood. That's 00:10:50.539 --> 00:10:52.639 exactly the idea. Instead of being totally stuck 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:54.899 and reliant on an incomprehensible explanation 00:10:54.899 --> 00:10:57.519 when the network fails, the leader has a professional 00:10:57.519 --> 00:11:00.240 partner whose insights can be accepted, discussed, 00:11:00.679 --> 00:11:03.120 understood, and then communicated onwards without 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:05.139 needing that heavy layer of, well, potentially 00:11:05.139 --> 00:11:07.879 misleading polish or facade. It's fundamentally 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:10.519 about building an internal structure for truth 00:11:10.519 --> 00:11:12.720 -telling around technology. Right, which then 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:15.200 allows the external narrative, the communication, 00:11:15.419 --> 00:11:18.019 to actually follow reality rather than just responding 00:11:18.019 --> 00:11:20.720 to pressure. It really is a fascinating insight, 00:11:20.820 --> 00:11:23.779 isn't it? How that combination of systemic pressure 00:11:23.779 --> 00:11:26.919 and a very specific knowledge gap can almost 00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:30.980 force certain managerial choices. The core finding 00:11:30.980 --> 00:11:34.649 seems crystal clear. that vulnerability and IT 00:11:34.649 --> 00:11:38.129 expertise is the direct root cause of so much 00:11:38.129 --> 00:11:40.669 of the spin required around school technology. 00:11:41.009 --> 00:11:42.929 Yeah, it suggests it's often not about malice 00:11:42.929 --> 00:11:45.230 or deception. It's more like a desperate measure 00:11:45.230 --> 00:11:48.049 to manage overwhelming complexity when you lack 00:11:48.049 --> 00:11:50.250 the foundational knowledge. A coping mechanism, 00:11:50.269 --> 00:11:52.590 almost. Could be seen that way. And for you, 00:11:52.610 --> 00:11:54.250 the listener, if you're interested in digging 00:11:54.250 --> 00:11:56.750 deeper into these solutions, remember this deep 00:11:56.750 --> 00:11:58.750 dive is drawing heavily from the work of Gary 00:11:58.750 --> 00:12:01.389 Ackerman. He's really focused on this intersection 00:12:01.389 --> 00:12:04.299 of leadership and technology for quite some time. 00:12:04.860 --> 00:12:06.940 Specifically, the source material cited a few 00:12:06.940 --> 00:12:08.600 of his related books. Right, you mentioned them. 00:12:08.779 --> 00:12:11.500 Yeah, things like... technology in schools. It 00:12:11.500 --> 00:12:13.860 isn't like this in business that was from 2022. 00:12:14.179 --> 00:12:17.019 Also, efficacious technology management, a guide 00:12:17.019 --> 00:12:19.139 for school leaders from 2018, and an earlier 00:12:19.139 --> 00:12:22.399 one, technology -rich teaching from 2015. So 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:24.379 there's more context there if you want it. Excellent. 00:12:24.379 --> 00:12:26.799 Good to have those references. OK, so let's leave 00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:29.259 you, our listener, with maybe a final thought 00:12:29.259 --> 00:12:32.399 to chew on this week. If a lack of core knowledge 00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:35.799 in one really essential complex area, like IT 00:12:35.799 --> 00:12:38.299 in this case, forces leaders into relying on 00:12:38.299 --> 00:12:41.460 unverified information, and then using that institutional 00:12:41.460 --> 00:12:44.460 narrative control, that spin, to satisfy powerful 00:12:44.460 --> 00:12:46.740 stakeholders. Where else might this be happening? 00:12:47.159 --> 00:12:48.980 What other crucial fields might be operating 00:12:48.980 --> 00:12:51.000 as unchecked black boxes in the organizations 00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:53.820 you encounter every day? Could it be areas like, 00:12:53.820 --> 00:12:57.679 say, complex cybersecurity issues or intricate 00:12:57.679 --> 00:13:00.480 financial regulations, maybe high -stakes investment 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:02.500 management? Are there places where the leaders 00:13:02.500 --> 00:13:05.100 might be functionally stuck, just like the school 00:13:05.100 --> 00:13:08.129 leaders with IT? And if so, does that mean the 00:13:08.129 --> 00:13:09.730 narratives you're hearing about those areas might 00:13:09.730 --> 00:13:12.929 be built on a similar foundation, a kind of unavoidable 00:13:12.929 --> 00:13:15.250 high -stakes facade driven by a knowledge gap? 00:13:15.470 --> 00:13:17.710 It's certainly an interesting lens to apply, 00:13:17.850 --> 00:13:20.210 isn't it? Makes you think twice about the next 00:13:20.210 --> 00:13:23.169 glossy official report you read. Definitely something 00:13:23.169 --> 00:13:25.549 to consider. All right, that wraps up this deep 00:13:25.549 --> 00:13:27.269 dive. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you next 00:13:27.269 --> 00:13:27.450 time.