1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,800
All right, so today we're gonna be diving into something called progressive discourse.

2
00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:04,800
Ooh.

3
00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:06,640
Sounds a little intimidating, I know.

4
00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:07,640
Yeah.

5
00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:12,600
It's a really fascinating concept for having better conversations, especially when things

6
00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:13,600
get really complex.

7
00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:14,600
Yeah.

8
00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,840
Think about those meetings where everyone's like talking past each other, using the same

9
00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,360
words but not really understanding what each other means.

10
00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:22,360
Right.

11
00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:24,440
That's what progressive discourse is trying to solve.

12
00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:25,600
Exactly.

13
00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:31,040
We are basing this deep dive on Gary Ackerman's article, Progressive Discourse, which is

14
00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,600
on the HackScience.education website.

15
00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:38,160
This is mostly focused on education, but honestly, I think it applies to so many different

16
00:00:38,160 --> 00:00:39,160
areas of life.

17
00:00:39,160 --> 00:00:40,160
Absolutely.

18
00:00:40,160 --> 00:00:44,280
I think it's about how we communicate and make decisions, whether it's in the classroom

19
00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:48,040
or planning a project at work or honestly, even just like...

20
00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:49,040
Even just life.

21
00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:50,040
Yeah.

22
00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:51,040
Just like in personal relationships.

23
00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:52,040
Yeah.

24
00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:53,040
Totally.

25
00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:54,720
So let's break down what progressive discourse actually is.

26
00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:55,560
Yeah.

27
00:00:55,560 --> 00:01:00,200
It's not actually picturing a super formal debate with rules and points, but I have a

28
00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:01,840
feeling it's not quite that...

29
00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:02,840
No, you're right.

30
00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:04,600
It's not about that strict formality.

31
00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:10,960
It's more about having a structured conversation where the goal is to establish facts through

32
00:01:10,960 --> 00:01:11,960
dialogue.

33
00:01:11,960 --> 00:01:12,960
Okay.

34
00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:18,080
And what's interesting is that participants might have different roles and levels of expertise.

35
00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,160
So it's not about everyone being on the same level from the start.

36
00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:22,160
Okay.

37
00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,960
It's not necessarily about agreeing, but more about getting a clearer picture of what the

38
00:01:25,960 --> 00:01:26,960
facts are.

39
00:01:26,960 --> 00:01:27,960
Exactly.

40
00:01:27,960 --> 00:01:30,600
You're exploring knowledge and ideas together.

41
00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,680
You're challenging assumptions along the way, and that shared exploration often leads

42
00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,640
to a deeper understanding, even if you don't end up agreeing on everything.

43
00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:39,640
Interesting.

44
00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:43,480
When I was reading Ackerman's article, a few things really jumped out at me.

45
00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:50,600
One was this idea of conceptual artifacts, which sounds very Indiana Jones, but I have

46
00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,680
a feeling it's not about finding the lost Ark or something like that.

47
00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:54,680
No, no, it's not about that.

48
00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:58,760
In this context, it's about tackling the problem of vague language.

49
00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:02,960
We all know how frustrating it can be when people use the same words, but mean totally

50
00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:03,960
different things.

51
00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:05,240
It happens all the time.

52
00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:06,240
All the time.

53
00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:10,920
So conceptual artifacts are about creating clear, shared definitions.

54
00:02:10,920 --> 00:02:16,000
The example that Ackerman gives is defining problematic and idealistic realizations of

55
00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:17,440
classroom concepts.

56
00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:18,440
Got it.

57
00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:22,240
So instead of just throwing these words around, you're grounding them in specific examples

58
00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:23,240
and actions.

59
00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:27,960
It's like saying, okay, when we say problematic in this context, we mean this specific issue.

60
00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:29,600
Yeah, it's like making a dictionary.

61
00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:30,600
Exactly.

62
00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:31,600
For your conversation.

63
00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:32,600
Yes.

64
00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:34,440
I could see how that would prevent a lot of problems down the line.

65
00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:35,440
Absolutely.

66
00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:39,320
And this ties into another key principle of progressive discourse, the assumption that

67
00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:41,440
things can always be improved.

68
00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:42,440
Right.

69
00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:44,440
I think everyone wishes that was the case in most meetings.

70
00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:46,320
Like, we're here to make things better.

71
00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:48,400
It's a powerful shift in perspective.

72
00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:54,200
It's not about finding the perfect solution right away, but rather about continually striving

73
00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:56,800
for a better understanding and finding ways to improve.

74
00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:58,040
I love that.

75
00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:02,760
So common understanding comes into play here because if you're always trying to improve,

76
00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:04,640
you need to make sure everyone's on the same page.

77
00:03:04,640 --> 00:03:05,640
Yeah.

78
00:03:05,640 --> 00:03:06,640
You hit the nail on the head.

79
00:03:06,640 --> 00:03:11,160
Common understanding is absolutely crucial in progressive discourse.

80
00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:18,080
It's what distinguishes it from a debate where the goal is often just to win an argument.

81
00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:20,800
So in a debate, you're trying to convince the other side.

82
00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:21,800
Yes.

83
00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,600
But in progressive discourse, you're not trying to win.

84
00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:25,600
You're trying to...

85
00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,600
But trying to build a shared understanding of the facts.

86
00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:28,600
Okay.

87
00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:29,720
Even if you don't agree on the solutions.

88
00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:30,720
I like that.

89
00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:31,720
Yeah.

90
00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,520
And this emphasis on shared facts brings us to another important point.

91
00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:35,520
Yes.

92
00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:36,520
Expanding fact.

93
00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:37,520
Expanding fact.

94
00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:43,680
Ackerman quotes Richard Feynman, who says, reality must take precedence over public relations.

95
00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:44,680
I love that quote.

96
00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:46,440
You can't just like spin your way out of reality.

97
00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:47,440
Exactly.

98
00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:51,720
You can't constantly be testing your assumptions against what is actually true.

99
00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:52,720
Precisely.

100
00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:54,400
And that's what drives progressive discourse.

101
00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:55,400
Okay.

102
00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,240
Evidence and observation, not just opinions or what we want to believe.

103
00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:00,240
I like that a lot.

104
00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:01,760
So we've got shared definitions.

105
00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:02,760
Yes.

106
00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,720
Focus on improvement and this commitment to actually finding the facts.

107
00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:07,720
Yes.

108
00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,280
But what about when people disagree?

109
00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,960
Is there room for debate in this whole process?

110
00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:14,960
Absolutely there is.

111
00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:19,160
In fact, criticism is actively encouraged in progressive discourse.

112
00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:20,160
Really?

113
00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:21,880
I would think that would cause conflict.

114
00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,600
It can, but it's not about tearing each other down.

115
00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,200
It's about using constructive criticism to refine ideas.

116
00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:29,200
Gotcha.

117
00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:30,200
Think of it like this.

118
00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,560
You're all working together to polish a rough diamond.

119
00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:33,560
Okay.

120
00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,760
So instead of saying you're wrong, it's more like, hey, have you considered this angle?

121
00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:37,760
Yeah.

122
00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,320
It's about pushing each other to think more deeply and test our assumptions against the

123
00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:42,920
evidence.

124
00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,280
And this brings us to another key principle.

125
00:04:45,280 --> 00:04:46,280
Okay.

126
00:04:46,280 --> 00:04:47,280
Nonsectarianism.

127
00:04:47,280 --> 00:04:48,560
That's a big word.

128
00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:49,560
Break it down for me.

129
00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,440
Basically, it means coming into the conversation with an open mind.

130
00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:53,440
Okay.

131
00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,160
You're not attached to a predetermined conclusion or agenda.

132
00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:01,200
You're willing to let the evidence guide you even if it challenges your initial beliefs.

133
00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:02,200
Wow.

134
00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:03,200
That's a tall order.

135
00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:04,200
It is.

136
00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,720
But I can see how that would be important, especially when you're talking about something

137
00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:08,640
as complex as education.

138
00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:10,120
Absolutely.

139
00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:14,800
And speaking of education, Ackerman gives some really interesting examples of how these

140
00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,880
principles can play out in the real world of schools and planning.

141
00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,920
So tell me about some of those real world examples, because I'm super curious to see

142
00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:27,280
how this actually works when you've got like a school board trying to make decisions.

143
00:05:27,280 --> 00:05:31,800
Well, Ackerman contrasts two very different approaches.

144
00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:37,080
In the first scenario, you have a committee that's basically there to rubber stamp decisions

145
00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:38,880
that have already been made.

146
00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:43,160
They might go through the motions of discussing a plan, but it's more about appearances than

147
00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:44,160
substance.

148
00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:45,640
I've been in those meetings.

149
00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:46,640
Great.

150
00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:47,640
Like so boring.

151
00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:52,120
It's all about following procedures, checking boxes, maintaining the status quo.

152
00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:56,440
There's very little genuine exploration of ideas or critical thinking happening.

153
00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:00,680
But then he describes a very different scenario where progressive discourse is actually being

154
00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:01,680
put into practice.

155
00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:02,680
Okay.

156
00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:03,680
So what does that look like?

157
00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:08,600
Well, it starts with asking fundamental questions, challenging assumptions right from the get

158
00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:09,600
go.

159
00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:14,120
Ackerman uses the example of technology rich classrooms.

160
00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:18,960
Instead of assuming everyone agrees on what that means, they start by asking, what do

161
00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:23,880
we actually mean by technology rich classrooms?

162
00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,440
So it's about getting everyone on the same page about the language.

163
00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,040
Which goes back to that conceptual artifact thing.

164
00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,640
I can see how that would save a lot of time and confusion.

165
00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:38,480
And then they go even deeper asking, what does our current practice actually look like?

166
00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:39,480
Oh, interesting.

167
00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,160
They're not relying on assumptions or wishful thinking.

168
00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:48,560
They're grounding the conversation in evidence, in observation, in the reality of their specific

169
00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:49,640
situation.

170
00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:53,040
So they're gathering facts before jumping to solutions.

171
00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:54,040
Exactly.

172
00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:55,040
Which makes sense.

173
00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,560
But how do you go from those facts to making decisions?

174
00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:02,040
Well, because you have this foundation of shared knowledge and understanding, you're

175
00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,840
not just throwing solutions out there randomly.

176
00:07:04,840 --> 00:07:08,160
You're building on that foundation, making sure the decisions are aligned with the actual

177
00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:10,080
needs and the evidence you've gathered.

178
00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,600
So the decisions are more likely to be grounded in reality.

179
00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:14,600
Precisely.

180
00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:15,920
And make sense for everyone.

181
00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:20,920
And because the process has been so thorough, it's also more likely to have buy-in from

182
00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:21,920
everyone involved.

183
00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,720
Right, because when you feel like you've actually been heard, and your perspective has been

184
00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,080
taken into account, you're more likely to support the outcome.

185
00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:30,680
It's not about winning or losing.

186
00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:32,960
That's a key point.

187
00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:37,600
And this is where the power of progressive discourse really shines.

188
00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:43,200
It's not just about making better decisions, but about creating a culture of collaboration,

189
00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,600
critical thinking, and continuous improvement.

190
00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:50,360
Now, that sounds like a much more enjoyable and productive way to work.

191
00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,280
But I imagine it takes a lot of effort to build that kind of culture.

192
00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:54,280
It does.

193
00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,880
It's not always easy to have these thoughtful conversations when you're also dealing with

194
00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:57,880
deadlines.

195
00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:00,520
Right, you have to create the space for it.

196
00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,760
And sometimes that means slowing down the process to really dig deep.

197
00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:09,280
And it's not just about the process, it's also about individual mindsets.

198
00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,000
Ooh, mindsets.

199
00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:13,000
Tell me more about that.

200
00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:19,760
Well, for starters, it requires a willingness to let go of the need to be right all the

201
00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:20,760
time.

202
00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:21,760
Ooh, that's a tough one.

203
00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:22,760
It is.

204
00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:23,880
It's human nature.

205
00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:25,560
We all want to be right.

206
00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,920
But in progressive discourse, the goal isn't to win.

207
00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:30,720
It's about getting closer to the truth.

208
00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:35,840
And that often means admitting when you're wrong or when you've learned something new.

209
00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:40,240
So being open to new information, even if it challenges your previous beliefs.

210
00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:41,240
Exactly.

211
00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:45,000
And it also requires a commitment to active listening.

212
00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,480
Really trying to understand the other person's perspective, even if you don't agree with

213
00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:49,480
it.

214
00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,320
That can be so hard, though, especially when you feel like maybe your perspective's not

215
00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,160
being heard or things are getting a little heated.

216
00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:57,160
Absolutely.

217
00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:58,240
We've all been there.

218
00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:02,200
But that's where those structured roles and the focus on evidence can really help.

219
00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,960
It keeps the conversation grounded and focused, even when things get a little heated.

220
00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:07,520
Yeah, like having a referee almost.

221
00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:08,520
Exactly.

222
00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:09,720
Making sure everyone's playing by the rules.

223
00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,520
So I'm getting a much better sense now of how all these different pieces of progressive

224
00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:14,960
discourse fit together.

225
00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:15,960
Good.

226
00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,080
But I have to ask, is it really achievable?

227
00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:19,080
That's a great question.

228
00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,040
I mean, it sounds a little idealistic.

229
00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:22,040
It is aspirational.

230
00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:23,280
There's no doubt about that.

231
00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:28,200
But I do think it's possible, especially when you have a group of people who are committed

232
00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,760
to the process and willing to put in the effort.

233
00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:32,000
So it's not about being perfect.

234
00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:36,280
It's about striving to get a little bit better each time.

235
00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:37,280
Exactly.

236
00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,800
Even small steps towards incorporating these principles can make a big difference in the

237
00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,600
quality of your conversations and decisions.

238
00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:44,600
I love that.

239
00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:45,600
This has been so insightful.

240
00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:46,600
Oh, good.

241
00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:47,600
I'm glad.

242
00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,800
What would you say is like the one big takeaway you want our listeners to get from this deep

243
00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,360
dive on progressive discourse?

244
00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:59,480
I think the key takeaway is that progressive discourse is a powerful tool, a tool for navigating

245
00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,640
complexity, making better decisions and building stronger relationships.

246
00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:03,640
Yeah.

247
00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,000
It's like you're giving us a new set of tools to use.

248
00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:07,000
Yes.

249
00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,000
It takes practice and skill to use it effectively.

250
00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,520
That's where Ackerman's article is so helpful.

251
00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:16,240
It provides a framework for understanding these principles.

252
00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,160
But ultimately, it's up to each of us to decide how we want to communicate and engage with

253
00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:21,440
the world around us.

254
00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,520
So listener, we'll leave you with this question.

255
00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:29,800
How could you apply the principles of progressive discourse to your own life, whether it's at

256
00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,360
work in your community or even in your personal relationships?

257
00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:38,400
How can you start to shift your mindset and approach conversations in a way that prioritizes

258
00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,440
understanding evidence and continuous improvement?

259
00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:42,440
Yeah.

260
00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:43,560
We'd love to hear your thoughts.

261
00:10:43,560 --> 00:10:45,960
You can find us on social media or through our website.

262
00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,800
And of course, be sure to check out the full article by Gary Ackerman.

263
00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:50,840
We'll have a link in the show notes.

264
00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,520
Thanks for joining us for this deep dive into progressive discourse.

265
00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:55,520
Yes.

266
00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:59,760
Until next time, keep those minds curious and those conversations flowing.

267
00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:04,880
And remember, the best way to learn is to keep asking questions, keep exploring ideas,

268
00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:21,920
and keep diving deeper.