WEBVTT 00:00:00.940 --> 00:00:06.059 My guest today is Dr. Narosha Murugan. Dr. Murugan 00:00:06.059 --> 00:00:09.699 is a Canada Research Chair, Tissue Biophysics, 00:00:10.500 --> 00:00:13.099 Faculty of Science Distinguished Research Chair, 00:00:13.699 --> 00:00:17.719 Assistant Professor at Wilfrid Laurier University. 00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:22.980 Dr. Murugan earned her PhD in Biomolecular Sciences. 00:00:23.839 --> 00:00:27.739 As an applied biophysicist, her work explores 00:00:27.739 --> 00:00:31.850 how structured physical signals such as light, 00:00:32.329 --> 00:00:37.789 voltage, and magnetism govern cellular plasticity, 00:00:38.429 --> 00:00:42.109 tissue regeneration, and the reversal of diseased 00:00:42.109 --> 00:00:46.850 states. Her approach reframes biology not solely 00:00:46.850 --> 00:00:51.509 as a molecular system, but as a dynamic network 00:00:51.509 --> 00:00:56.770 governed by first principles in physics. Currently, 00:00:56.850 --> 00:01:00.189 her lab bridges quantum biology with biomedical 00:01:00.189 --> 00:01:04.269 engineering to decode how physical signals acting 00:01:04.269 --> 00:01:07.269 as carriers of structured information sculpt 00:01:07.269 --> 00:01:12.189 the body's energetic architecture. By mapping 00:01:12.189 --> 00:01:14.909 out how these signals define energy landscapes 00:01:14.909 --> 00:01:18.769 and reconfigure cellular signaling networks, 00:01:19.310 --> 00:01:22.290 her work reveals new ways to understand cell 00:01:22.290 --> 00:01:27.650 state transitions, disease emergence, therapeutic 00:01:27.650 --> 00:01:31.689 responsiveness at both the individual and systems 00:01:31.689 --> 00:01:37.689 level. Through technology, development, and interdisciplinary 00:01:37.689 --> 00:01:41.370 collaboration, she aims to bring the biophysics 00:01:41.370 --> 00:01:45.670 of life into real -world innovation that reprogram 00:01:45.670 --> 00:01:49.189 disease states and support a more precise and 00:01:49.189 --> 00:01:53.829 holistic and energetically informed model for 00:01:53.829 --> 00:01:58.030 human health. Today's episode is all about quantum 00:01:58.030 --> 00:02:02.530 physics and quantum biology. Dr. Murigan will 00:02:02.530 --> 00:02:05.510 take us through a passionate work and upstream 00:02:05.510 --> 00:02:08.849 in these biological processes that needs our 00:02:08.849 --> 00:02:13.210 attention. And now, my conversation with Dr. 00:02:13.349 --> 00:02:18.370 Narosha Murigan. I would like to take a moment 00:02:18.370 --> 00:02:22.509 and mention a pressing issue we are seeing in 00:02:22.509 --> 00:02:28.900 our modern world. and that is tech use and tech 00:02:28.900 --> 00:02:33.520 light. The data are impressive and concerning 00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:38.740 on isolated wavelengths of light, especially 00:02:38.740 --> 00:02:44.699 shorter wavelengths, which is blue light. For 00:02:44.699 --> 00:02:48.099 those that don't know, we have chromophores, 00:02:48.620 --> 00:02:52.379 which are special proteins that absorbs specific 00:02:52.379 --> 00:02:57.289 wavelengths of light. For blue light the light 00:02:57.289 --> 00:03:01.669 that is LED light and tech light that protein 00:03:01.669 --> 00:03:07.490 is called melanopsin Melanopsin is responsible 00:03:07.490 --> 00:03:12.710 for our circadian biology physiology and cell 00:03:12.710 --> 00:03:17.849 functioning hormone regulation and even a connection 00:03:17.849 --> 00:03:24.530 to an area huge for mood a consideration we should 00:03:24.530 --> 00:03:28.669 include is this protein was not even discovered 00:03:28.669 --> 00:03:35.349 until 1998. It seems important for us to understand 00:03:35.349 --> 00:03:39.949 how our biology uses the different wavelengths 00:03:39.949 --> 00:03:44.689 of light for various aspects of our biology. 00:03:46.150 --> 00:03:50.110 This blue light chromophore is our master controller, 00:03:51.090 --> 00:03:55.449 our master clock. Remember, circadian rhythm 00:03:55.449 --> 00:04:00.270 is a two -part process, two independent parts. 00:04:01.289 --> 00:04:07.449 Light and dark. For a quick reference, see the 00:04:07.449 --> 00:04:12.210 2017 Nobel Prize in Physiology and Medicine. 00:04:13.409 --> 00:04:16.589 But for now, I have something exciting. I want 00:04:16.589 --> 00:04:19.430 to introduce a product unlike any other product 00:04:19.430 --> 00:04:24.670 available. A highlight is... The product from 00:04:24.670 --> 00:04:27.970 Daylight Computer Company created their product 00:04:27.970 --> 00:04:32.230 based on these factors. The Daylight Computer 00:04:32.230 --> 00:04:38.329 is completely blue light free. It has no flicker. 00:04:38.769 --> 00:04:42.149 Short wavelength flicker is extremely harmful 00:04:42.149 --> 00:04:47.110 for our eyes and downstream biology. Light flicker 00:04:47.110 --> 00:04:50.050 is constantly turning our central nervous system 00:04:50.050 --> 00:04:55.339 on and off. Essentially it is like going to a 00:04:55.339 --> 00:04:58.300 light switch and repeatedly turning it on and 00:04:58.300 --> 00:05:04.079 off. The problem is blue light and LED light 00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:08.500 does this and it is so rapid you cannot even 00:05:08.500 --> 00:05:13.360 perceive this in real time. The daylight computer 00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:18.360 is the lowest stimulation and foremost for sensory 00:05:18.360 --> 00:05:24.379 sensitive users. It is no question that the alternative 00:05:24.379 --> 00:05:29.620 product, especially when used at night, do not 00:05:29.620 --> 00:05:34.060 address or consider this in their product. It 00:05:34.060 --> 00:05:39.000 is so toxic to human biology. Big tech corporations 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:43.740 have patents on how their short wavelength implicate 00:05:43.740 --> 00:05:49.300 the human nervous system. And a bonus. Despite 00:05:49.300 --> 00:05:53.480 daylight computer not having backlight, it is 00:05:53.480 --> 00:05:57.839 very functional for outdoor use. And of course, 00:05:58.699 --> 00:06:03.660 increased sunlight is always preferred. I am 00:06:03.660 --> 00:06:07.019 happy to offer a discount for the daylight computer. 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:13.160 You can use the code AUTISM for a $25 off coupon. 00:06:14.660 --> 00:06:19.060 Again, use the code AUTISM and the discount code 00:06:19.060 --> 00:06:24.279 for $25 off. See the link in the show notes to 00:06:24.279 --> 00:06:27.420 Daylight Computer Company or just give it a quick 00:06:27.420 --> 00:06:31.519 search in your internet browser. Use the code 00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:38.519 AUTISM for $25 off. I would like to mention Chroma. 00:06:39.220 --> 00:06:44.420 Lights designed for humans. Chroma, a Seattle 00:06:44.420 --> 00:06:48.860 -based innovator, founded by ex -NASA and Air 00:06:48.860 --> 00:06:53.420 Force engineer Michael Shapiro is on a mission 00:06:53.420 --> 00:06:57.399 to enhance physical and mental health with purpose 00:06:57.399 --> 00:07:02.399 -built devices, unlocking peak human health, 00:07:02.920 --> 00:07:07.199 cognitive function, and performance. Shapiro 00:07:07.199 --> 00:07:10.079 launched Chroma to restore the natural light 00:07:10.079 --> 00:07:14.779 lost to screens in indoor living and delivers 00:07:14.779 --> 00:07:18.790 faster recovery. sharper minds and better sleep. 00:07:19.730 --> 00:07:23.649 Their products hit hard. The Iron Forge speeds 00:07:23.649 --> 00:07:27.769 muscle repair with red and near -infrared light, 00:07:28.069 --> 00:07:32.370 while the Skylight mimics sunlight to boost sleep 00:07:32.370 --> 00:07:38.009 and energy. A standout, the Forge Lamp, is a 00:07:38.009 --> 00:07:44.029 portable gem that fires 660 nanometer and 850 00:07:44.029 --> 00:07:48.810 nanometer light. to energize mitochondria and 00:07:48.810 --> 00:07:53.230 heal tissues on the go. Remember the four red 00:07:53.230 --> 00:07:56.129 -light chromophores on cytochrome c -oxidase 00:07:56.129 --> 00:07:59.990 frequently talked about in the podcast? This 00:07:59.990 --> 00:08:04.230 is why. Their products are built with military 00:08:04.230 --> 00:08:10.230 -grade durability that have lasting impact. Chroma's 00:08:10.230 --> 00:08:15.930 tech fuses precision and power. Gallium titride 00:08:16.139 --> 00:08:20.240 Power supplies smaller, cooler, and stronger 00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:24.360 than silicone. Provide flicker -free light that's 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:29.120 easy on the eyes. High -powered LEDs target key 00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:33.720 wavelengths for skin, tissue, and cellular health 00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:37.519 with smart heat management for the lasting impact. 00:08:38.519 --> 00:08:41.919 Every design decision Chroma makes serves a purpose 00:08:41.919 --> 00:08:47.100 to create devices that are precise durable and 00:08:47.100 --> 00:08:52.299 effective for improving human life. Remember, 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:55.259 humans use different wavelengths of light for 00:08:55.259 --> 00:09:00.240 different functions of life. Remember when I 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:07.440 ask, what do you think light is? Chromindescience 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:12.200 was our biology in mind. From sleep aids and 00:09:12.200 --> 00:09:16.889 wound healing to mitochondrial energy. full body 00:09:16.889 --> 00:09:20.350 lights and blue light blocking glasses. They 00:09:20.350 --> 00:09:25.450 are US made and chroma ships globally and accepts 00:09:25.450 --> 00:09:33.169 FSA and HSA payments. Use autism at checkout 00:09:33.169 --> 00:09:39.909 for a 10 % off discount. That's autism at checkout 00:09:39.909 --> 00:09:46.139 for a 10 % off discount. You just want to start 00:09:46.139 --> 00:09:47.980 with telling us a little bit about your journey 00:09:47.980 --> 00:09:51.259 into quantum physics and learning about the bio 00:09:51.259 --> 00:09:57.200 photons? For sure. So academically, my interest 00:09:57.200 --> 00:10:00.659 has always been in trying to understand how biology 00:10:00.659 --> 00:10:05.090 communicates with each other. And he starts in 00:10:05.090 --> 00:10:07.470 school, in college, and in my undergraduate, 00:10:07.730 --> 00:10:11.070 I was sitting in an immunology class and we were 00:10:11.070 --> 00:10:13.649 trying to learn about antibodies and how they 00:10:13.649 --> 00:10:16.470 work in the body and how do the white blood cells 00:10:16.470 --> 00:10:19.230 know where to go, where to target. And we learned 00:10:19.230 --> 00:10:21.730 about there are these things called receptors 00:10:21.730 --> 00:10:24.330 and there's proteins that bind to the receptors 00:10:24.330 --> 00:10:27.009 and that's how cells talk to each other. But 00:10:27.009 --> 00:10:30.629 that didn't sit well with me. because if you 00:10:30.629 --> 00:10:32.409 think about the size of the cell and how many 00:10:32.409 --> 00:10:34.789 proteins there are, it just didn't make sense 00:10:34.789 --> 00:10:36.929 that how can this one little protein that's sitting 00:10:36.929 --> 00:10:39.970 off on one side of the cell, how does it find 00:10:39.970 --> 00:10:43.370 its way in? So it was an incomplete story for 00:10:43.370 --> 00:10:46.750 me. And I asked my professor, was there something 00:10:46.750 --> 00:10:49.309 else? How does a cell know how to communicate 00:10:49.309 --> 00:10:52.350 with each other? And he said that was it. It 00:10:52.350 --> 00:10:54.350 was a lock and key model. That's what we knew. 00:10:55.129 --> 00:10:58.649 And kind of going down this route, I realized 00:10:58.649 --> 00:11:00.809 that there's more to the cell communication, 00:11:01.009 --> 00:11:04.230 the cell talk, than just molecules and genes. 00:11:04.350 --> 00:11:05.970 And that's kind of where this all started, is 00:11:05.970 --> 00:11:09.809 looking at the physical dimensions of how cells 00:11:09.809 --> 00:11:12.070 and tissue and biology communicate with each 00:11:12.070 --> 00:11:15.950 other. So very long -winded answer, but. Yeah, 00:11:15.950 --> 00:11:19.850 that's great. How was your experience with, now 00:11:19.850 --> 00:11:22.590 correct me if I'm wrong, if I'm mistaken here, 00:11:22.750 --> 00:11:26.929 but with Michael Levin? Levin? Yeah, yeah. How 00:11:26.929 --> 00:11:31.710 was that experience? Wonderful. So I, when I 00:11:31.710 --> 00:11:34.570 was finishing my PhD, and my PhD was really grounded 00:11:34.570 --> 00:11:37.909 in electromagnetic biology and biophotons. We 00:11:37.909 --> 00:11:39.429 could talk a little bit more about that later. 00:11:40.450 --> 00:11:42.330 One thing that kept coming up when I was sharing 00:11:42.330 --> 00:11:44.690 our work was how does this work? How does magnetic 00:11:44.690 --> 00:11:46.950 fields affect biology, like the mechanism? That's 00:11:46.950 --> 00:11:51.250 always what everyone wants to know. that the 00:11:51.250 --> 00:11:54.970 answer took me to Mike Levin because he was the 00:11:54.970 --> 00:11:57.809 leader in ion channels and bioelectricity. So 00:11:57.809 --> 00:12:00.269 I thought that had to be the link. If we were 00:12:00.269 --> 00:12:01.929 going to work with magnetism, we had to think 00:12:01.929 --> 00:12:04.870 about electricity, bioelectricity. And so that 00:12:04.870 --> 00:12:07.309 was a link to him. And then working in his lab 00:12:07.309 --> 00:12:10.960 was the most freeing and one of the most rigorous 00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:13.200 scientific training that I've gotten. And I'm 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:15.899 very grateful for this because it allowed it 00:12:15.899 --> 00:12:18.539 with with Mike, you're able to think very out 00:12:18.539 --> 00:12:22.100 of the box, very big picture, but grounded in 00:12:22.100 --> 00:12:24.580 technique and scientific rigor that is required 00:12:24.580 --> 00:12:28.200 to answer these questions. Yeah, okay. There's 00:12:28.200 --> 00:12:30.980 there's three to five people that I think are 00:12:30.980 --> 00:12:35.320 leading the way on this. Yeah, you two are definitely 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:38.419 part of that. Because I think this is the future 00:12:38.419 --> 00:12:40.960 of medicine. It's already here. You guys are 00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:46.440 already doing it. And medicine is catching up. 00:12:46.539 --> 00:12:48.659 They're seeing that that molecular story is not 00:12:48.659 --> 00:12:51.279 enough. Everyone's different. Everyone's molecular 00:12:51.279 --> 00:12:54.200 signature is so different. How do we create treatments? 00:12:55.159 --> 00:12:58.419 Right. There's more to this than just genes and 00:12:58.419 --> 00:13:00.340 molecules. I think that's what's easy for us 00:13:00.340 --> 00:13:03.159 to measure. The physical side of things is hard 00:13:03.159 --> 00:13:05.379 to measure. It's hard to train people to think. 00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:08.139 in this domain. I think that's where the challenge 00:13:08.139 --> 00:13:12.080 is and I'm excited to see medicine actually shifting 00:13:12.080 --> 00:13:16.059 this way. Yeah, it's obviously needed because 00:13:16.059 --> 00:13:19.960 all the objective data are concerning. There 00:13:19.960 --> 00:13:22.620 are some few conditions I want to get into later 00:13:22.620 --> 00:13:26.179 because I think we're definitely in play here. 00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:32.200 Can you, before we kind of get started, can you 00:13:32.200 --> 00:13:36.570 explain photoreceptors across the body and especially 00:13:36.570 --> 00:13:40.269 the opsins. Can you define opsin versus chromophore? 00:13:40.590 --> 00:13:44.870 Sure. So photoreceptor or basically any protein 00:13:44.870 --> 00:13:49.730 is light sensitive. Opsins are a class of proteins 00:13:49.730 --> 00:13:52.809 that are light sensitive and that are able to 00:13:52.809 --> 00:13:55.330 transduce that information in a signaling cascade. 00:13:57.090 --> 00:14:01.169 So chromophores are a general category of proteins 00:14:01.169 --> 00:14:03.269 that are light reactive and light sensitive. 00:14:03.370 --> 00:14:06.970 So in response to specific wavelengths and intensities 00:14:06.970 --> 00:14:10.379 of light, they change their conformational position. 00:14:10.679 --> 00:14:13.279 So they change their shape. And when they change 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:15.860 their shape, that causes a change inside of the 00:14:15.860 --> 00:14:18.980 cell or around the cell for them to kind of understand 00:14:18.980 --> 00:14:22.740 what's happening. What does the cell do at that 00:14:22.740 --> 00:14:27.409 point? Good question. Typically what happens 00:14:27.409 --> 00:14:29.850 in signaling is when we think about cellular 00:14:29.850 --> 00:14:31.950 signaling from a molecular perspective, there 00:14:31.950 --> 00:14:34.490 are certain molecules that when they change their 00:14:34.490 --> 00:14:37.289 conformation, they produce other byproducts that 00:14:37.289 --> 00:14:39.730 kind of in a chain reaction will induce that 00:14:39.730 --> 00:14:44.529 cascade. Usually this either causes a change 00:14:44.529 --> 00:14:47.309 in the genome and the genetics that causes expression 00:14:47.309 --> 00:14:49.070 of genes. They turn them on or turn them off 00:14:49.070 --> 00:14:53.689 or switches or they change them with the metabolism 00:14:53.689 --> 00:14:57.049 of a cell. So the cell responds to the accumulation 00:14:57.049 --> 00:14:59.610 of certain proteins. So photoreceptors, for example, 00:14:59.629 --> 00:15:02.730 when it gets stimulated by light, they change 00:15:02.730 --> 00:15:04.830 their conformation and then inside of the cell, 00:15:04.950 --> 00:15:07.129 there are proteins that also change their conformation 00:15:07.129 --> 00:15:11.190 and continue that cascade that will then either 00:15:11.190 --> 00:15:13.470 tell the cell, okay, we need to grow, we need 00:15:13.470 --> 00:15:16.750 to stop growing, we need to make more of X protein. 00:15:17.590 --> 00:15:23.320 That's sort of typical of the cascade. Yeah, 00:15:23.559 --> 00:15:28.259 that makes a lot of good sense there. Can you 00:15:28.259 --> 00:15:32.320 define unstimulated light? Unstimulated light, 00:15:32.419 --> 00:15:35.600 is that what you said? Yeah. Yeah, unstimulated 00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:42.899 light. Did I freeze? No. Okay, you froze. Unstimulated 00:15:42.899 --> 00:15:46.639 light. where we call ultrafine photon emission 00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:50.519 or bio photons without light getting into the 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:53.460 stimulating into the body. These are light that's 00:15:53.460 --> 00:15:56.500 actually emerging from physics, from energy changes, 00:15:56.720 --> 00:15:59.500 energy dynamics that exist within the cell. And 00:15:59.500 --> 00:16:01.039 I can go into a little bit more detail if you 00:16:01.039 --> 00:16:04.259 want to know. Yeah, please do. Just expand on 00:16:04.259 --> 00:16:09.460 that as much as you want. Yeah. So usually, so 00:16:09.460 --> 00:16:12.240 all proteins, everything that exists in biology, 00:16:12.460 --> 00:16:15.820 we're all and surrounded by this beautiful sun. 00:16:16.179 --> 00:16:20.600 So we're always in this bath of light. So proteins, 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:22.659 they respond to different wavelengths of light. 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:24.720 Biomolecules respond to different wavelengths 00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:27.100 of light. So that's what we call excitation. 00:16:27.179 --> 00:16:29.860 When light comes in, that's excitation. Let's 00:16:29.860 --> 00:16:32.840 say 500 nanometers of light, and then they emit, 00:16:33.139 --> 00:16:35.059 they'll change their energy states and they'll 00:16:35.059 --> 00:16:36.559 emit in a different wavelength. We call that 00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:41.549 emission. Now, some... processes, they generate 00:16:41.549 --> 00:16:45.049 light. So if you take an electron and it's at 00:16:45.049 --> 00:16:48.169 a certain energy state, when it gets to a high 00:16:48.169 --> 00:16:50.649 energy and comes back down again, that energy 00:16:50.649 --> 00:16:54.009 gets transformed into the form of light. So you 00:16:54.009 --> 00:16:56.429 and I know energy can't be created or destroyed, 00:16:56.570 --> 00:16:59.289 it just basically can be transformed. So this 00:16:59.289 --> 00:17:02.250 transformation we see in the form of light. In 00:17:02.250 --> 00:17:04.049 our bodies that are happening right now, the 00:17:04.049 --> 00:17:06.490 energy transformation also happens in heat. Right? 00:17:07.269 --> 00:17:10.750 You know, we call that dissipated heat. Now we're 00:17:10.750 --> 00:17:13.210 seeing this, that that energy can be transformed 00:17:13.210 --> 00:17:17.450 in the form of light. OK, that's that's like 00:17:17.450 --> 00:17:21.730 the. The role, I think, of mitochondria is like 00:17:21.730 --> 00:17:25.029 a dissipative structure. We want to get into 00:17:25.029 --> 00:17:30.289 mitochondria. You want to go into the recent 00:17:30.289 --> 00:17:32.809 paper from the spring and just tell us, tell 00:17:32.809 --> 00:17:36.450 me about how. Like, what you found and the methods 00:17:36.450 --> 00:17:40.750 of that and everything? The Brain Glow paper? 00:17:40.970 --> 00:17:46.410 Yeah, that's a very exciting paper. It's built 00:17:46.410 --> 00:17:49.849 on the shoulders and the research that's been 00:17:49.849 --> 00:17:54.309 happening for the last 50 to 100 years. What 00:17:54.309 --> 00:17:57.269 we have basically showed in our paper is that 00:17:57.269 --> 00:18:02.900 the neurons, the brain cells... emit light. And 00:18:02.900 --> 00:18:05.660 this is not new. People have shown that brain 00:18:05.660 --> 00:18:08.140 cells do emit light, living cells do emit light. 00:18:08.539 --> 00:18:10.440 What's exciting about our paper is that we can 00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:13.259 measure this outside of a living human skull. 00:18:13.700 --> 00:18:16.779 And that signal of light that comes out of someone's 00:18:16.779 --> 00:18:19.839 head is actually in relation to or in proportion 00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:23.039 to their brain activity. So as someone is thinking 00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:27.059 or doing some cognitive task, that light emission 00:18:27.059 --> 00:18:29.440 seems to track. And what's really exciting about 00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:31.279 that is that this is, I think, the first time 00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:32.900 that we're showing that the light that's coming 00:18:32.900 --> 00:18:36.039 out of our heads and our bodies is not byproduct. 00:18:36.140 --> 00:18:40.420 It's not just a random event. It may be instructive. 00:18:40.420 --> 00:18:42.740 And I want to emphasize the maybe because we 00:18:42.740 --> 00:18:45.859 need to kind of prove that a little bit more. 00:18:46.259 --> 00:18:49.299 OK. Could you explain just briefly about the 00:18:49.299 --> 00:18:54.960 photomultiplier? For sure. So the tool that the 00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:57.720 ways to actually pick up. the photons, the photons, 00:18:57.819 --> 00:19:01.599 the light is very weak in intensity. It's not 00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:04.140 as you can't see it with the naked eye. So if 00:19:04.140 --> 00:19:06.740 you take an LED and you turn it all the way down 00:19:06.740 --> 00:19:10.339 to the lowest intensity, that's still too bright 00:19:10.339 --> 00:19:13.180 from the type of light that we measure. So we 00:19:13.180 --> 00:19:16.680 pick up individual single photons that we can't 00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:19.940 really perceive and a photomultiplier tube does 00:19:19.940 --> 00:19:23.019 that. So the word photomultiplier means it multiplies 00:19:23.019 --> 00:19:26.319 the photons at the counts. So every time a photon 00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:30.079 hits the detector it converts that signal into 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:32.920 an electrical count. So every time for every 00:19:32.920 --> 00:19:35.359 one photon you get like one electrical count 00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:38.259 and the counter will count every time that hits 00:19:38.259 --> 00:19:40.880 that detector and we can multiply that to get 00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:45.220 a signal. Well that's fascinating. It's pretty 00:19:45.220 --> 00:19:48.259 cool. There's lots more cool detectors out there, 00:19:48.660 --> 00:19:51.720 like CCD cameras, for example, can actually pick 00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:54.400 up these photons. And there's a group in Japan, 00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:58.420 Kobayashi, Jaipai Dai, they use the CCD cameras, 00:19:58.460 --> 00:20:00.779 and you can actually see the biophotons. You 00:20:00.779 --> 00:20:04.140 can see the changes in photon emissions across 00:20:04.140 --> 00:20:07.019 people. The difference between what a PMT or 00:20:07.019 --> 00:20:09.480 photomultiplier tube can do is that you can get 00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:12.730 this signal over time. So the resolution may 00:20:12.730 --> 00:20:15.470 not be that good, but we get really quick dynamics. 00:20:15.670 --> 00:20:17.470 And that's why it's really good for brain activity, 00:20:17.890 --> 00:20:19.609 where our CCD camera, you can kind of get that 00:20:19.609 --> 00:20:23.890 spatial distribution. Is that the group that 00:20:23.890 --> 00:20:27.049 released a paper around 15 years ago that showed 00:20:27.049 --> 00:20:29.609 like the human inside the human body is just 00:20:29.609 --> 00:20:38.680 lighting up? Yeah, they've done quite a lot of 00:20:38.680 --> 00:20:41.420 the groundwork that's building off of other people 00:20:41.420 --> 00:20:45.119 like Fritz Alba Pop, the Van Wicks, they've all 00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:48.099 kind of shown this work that cells and tissue, 00:20:48.259 --> 00:20:50.440 they've done a lot of this work in plants and 00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:53.700 bean sprouts is another, like during the development 00:20:53.700 --> 00:20:56.009 germination, there's a lot of these like... highly 00:20:56.009 --> 00:20:58.609 metabolic activity that happened in plants, and 00:20:58.609 --> 00:21:01.349 they're easy to kind of use and measure. So they've 00:21:01.349 --> 00:21:02.730 kind of done a lot of this work that we're building 00:21:02.730 --> 00:21:08.750 off of. I'm going to run an analogy across you 00:21:08.750 --> 00:21:13.990 about germination and in comparison to autism. 00:21:14.509 --> 00:21:20.160 And maybe I'll just do it now. Yeah. So I'm your 00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:22.420 student right now, so I want you to be a tough 00:21:22.420 --> 00:21:25.160 professor on me and to just correct me if I'm 00:21:25.160 --> 00:21:30.240 wrong. So I want to lay out that down. So artificial 00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:33.880 light came around, let's say, 1890s. Let's just 00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:40.579 say 1890s. Autism first showed up in 1930s. Johns 00:21:40.579 --> 00:21:45.519 Hopkins, Leo Kanner, and then in Vienna, Hans 00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:47.599 Asperger. They were studying this at the same 00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:51.789 time. This is like, One to maybe two generations 00:21:51.789 --> 00:21:57.049 after artificial light So I'm thinking like if 00:21:57.049 --> 00:22:02.230 as a comparison if I'm trying to grow a tomato 00:22:02.230 --> 00:22:05.390 plant right and I have the seed seedling and 00:22:05.390 --> 00:22:09.289 I put in the soil and I have to nurture that 00:22:09.289 --> 00:22:14.009 up and eventually get it to sunlight If I don't 00:22:14.009 --> 00:22:17.980 get the sunlight it's not going to develop Right, 00:22:17.980 --> 00:22:21.220 it's going to be underdeveloped and that's what 00:22:21.220 --> 00:22:24.920 neurodevelopment is. That's what autism is But 00:22:24.920 --> 00:22:28.579 in comparison if I give it the proper environment, 00:22:28.579 --> 00:22:32.960 it has a better chance of developing into an 00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:41.039 adult plant So my question is Maybe I should 00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:45.220 have started with the artificial light but What 00:22:46.089 --> 00:22:52.089 How much of this energy coming in is responsible 00:22:52.089 --> 00:22:57.289 for the development of, let's say, a fetal or 00:22:57.289 --> 00:23:03.410 that plant? I mean, excellent question. And I've 00:23:03.410 --> 00:23:06.529 been really trying to bring this to light, no 00:23:06.529 --> 00:23:09.450 pun intended, about the role of the environmental 00:23:09.450 --> 00:23:13.359 information. It's not just... you know, like 00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:15.019 pollutants and things like this, the environment 00:23:15.019 --> 00:23:17.339 itself carries information for our development. 00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:22.140 The biggest myth is that our internal surfaces 00:23:22.140 --> 00:23:26.779 are dark. They aren't. There are receptors in 00:23:26.779 --> 00:23:29.779 places that are within deep brain region, you 00:23:29.779 --> 00:23:33.420 know, within the fetus, for example, within the 00:23:33.420 --> 00:23:35.839 womb that's supposed to be dark, but it is kind 00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:38.220 of red shifted. There's a glow of red within 00:23:38.220 --> 00:23:42.200 those areas. And these options are within the 00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:45.759 brain, for example, there's other proteins and 00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:49.859 pigments like neuromelanin that are also photosensitive 00:23:49.859 --> 00:23:53.039 and photoreactive. So there's a big question 00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:55.660 mark. Why are they there? Evolution doesn't like 00:23:55.660 --> 00:23:57.559 to waste energy and it's pretty efficient. And 00:23:57.559 --> 00:23:59.519 if it wasn't useful, we would have evolved out 00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:02.319 of that, right? So to answer the first part of 00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:04.980 your question, there's definitely some sort of 00:24:04.980 --> 00:24:11.609 role in there. In terms of light, The light that 00:24:11.609 --> 00:24:14.410 we absorb from our environment carries energy 00:24:14.410 --> 00:24:17.009 and information, and the information is not just 00:24:17.009 --> 00:24:19.609 in the intensity of light, it's not just in the 00:24:19.609 --> 00:24:21.950 wavelength of light, but in the pattern in which 00:24:21.950 --> 00:24:25.170 we get that light throughout the day. You know, 00:24:25.210 --> 00:24:27.230 we see this often, for example, in shift workers. 00:24:27.609 --> 00:24:30.170 In shift workers that have, it's not just circadian, 00:24:30.289 --> 00:24:31.710 it's not just the fact that they're not going 00:24:31.710 --> 00:24:34.569 away, it's not their metabolism, it's the exposure 00:24:34.569 --> 00:24:36.589 to the light, the pattern of light that they're 00:24:36.589 --> 00:24:40.069 getting. The receptors and the biology is reactive 00:24:40.069 --> 00:24:44.210 to this. So we don't exactly know what's happening 00:24:44.210 --> 00:24:46.329 on our internal structure in neurodevelopment, 00:24:46.369 --> 00:24:48.869 but within plants, for example, we know that 00:24:48.869 --> 00:24:51.869 plants need sunlight and they need light to grow. 00:24:52.289 --> 00:24:55.289 And if you pulse the light in very different 00:24:55.289 --> 00:24:58.329 patterns, you get all sorts of different shapes 00:24:58.329 --> 00:25:04.789 and growth patterns of these plants. So you can 00:25:04.789 --> 00:25:07.170 keep the source of the light the same, but if 00:25:07.170 --> 00:25:09.630 you change the pattern, you get a different hokum. 00:25:10.049 --> 00:25:11.750 And I think that's kind of similar to what you're 00:25:11.750 --> 00:25:14.819 saying, is that it doesn't need to be... just 00:25:14.819 --> 00:25:17.000 that you don't have the right wavelength of light. 00:25:17.059 --> 00:25:19.079 That's one obvious source, right? I think artificial 00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:22.119 light misses the spectrum that you need. It misses 00:25:22.119 --> 00:25:24.220 the intensity of light, misses the wavelength. 00:25:24.460 --> 00:25:27.460 That's one. The other big thing that's missing 00:25:27.460 --> 00:25:31.339 is the dynamics of that light, you know? So I 00:25:31.339 --> 00:25:33.140 think those are things that we need to think 00:25:33.140 --> 00:25:37.440 about. OK, because the mothers of the Canter 00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:40.960 kids and well, the mothers of the Canter kids. 00:25:42.059 --> 00:25:44.839 were all professional workers. They were like 00:25:44.839 --> 00:25:50.339 nurses, professors, school teachers. They worked 00:25:50.339 --> 00:25:54.579 in these types of environments. Nine of the 11 00:25:54.579 --> 00:25:57.400 were college graduates. And, you know, this is 00:25:57.400 --> 00:26:03.700 20s to 30s as they're developing into a adult 00:26:03.700 --> 00:26:08.140 and profession. And the fathers of the Kanner 00:26:08.140 --> 00:26:12.079 kids were very successful people as well, lawyers 00:26:12.079 --> 00:26:16.259 and doctors, professors, and so forth. So they 00:26:16.259 --> 00:26:18.720 were all in this type of indoor environment. 00:26:19.259 --> 00:26:22.160 And then the grandparents of the Canter kids, 00:26:22.279 --> 00:26:25.460 the 11 Canter kids, they were the same. They 00:26:25.460 --> 00:26:30.140 were successful. So I'm imagining that when electricity 00:26:30.140 --> 00:26:33.859 and the artificial light came available, like 00:26:33.859 --> 00:26:36.900 these families were on it. from the get -go. 00:26:37.079 --> 00:26:39.720 They had the means to equip their house with 00:26:39.720 --> 00:26:47.220 the so -called modern environment. And if we 00:26:47.220 --> 00:26:51.400 zoom out now and over time to present day, we 00:26:51.400 --> 00:26:56.440 can see a shift. And it's pretty similar to removing 00:26:56.440 --> 00:27:00.299 ourselves from the natural environment and spending 00:27:00.299 --> 00:27:04.200 more time indoors and with the various different 00:27:04.200 --> 00:27:07.049 artificial types of light. because that has evolved 00:27:07.049 --> 00:27:10.609 as well. The rates of autism kind of match that. 00:27:13.589 --> 00:27:16.170 Can you say a little bit more? I'm interested 00:27:16.170 --> 00:27:19.450 about that. The rates of autism match what? The 00:27:19.450 --> 00:27:22.430 lack of light or the introduction of certain 00:27:22.430 --> 00:27:26.750 artificial lights? Both. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:27:26.990 --> 00:27:29.390 But people get hitched on this because autism 00:27:29.390 --> 00:27:33.609 wasn't an official diagnosis until 1980. It's 00:27:33.609 --> 00:27:36.609 kind of easy to compare the rates from like the 00:27:36.609 --> 00:27:41.569 60s and 70s, but there wasn't a lot of attention 00:27:41.569 --> 00:27:47.690 on it until kind of probably 1994 in the DSM 00:27:47.690 --> 00:27:54.609 4. Yeah, DSM 4. And, you know, the definitions 00:27:54.609 --> 00:27:57.430 have changed and I'm not discounting other factors 00:27:57.430 --> 00:28:01.069 being involved, but with the changed definitions 00:28:01.069 --> 00:28:04.680 of autism, it's kind of opened the floodgates, 00:28:04.700 --> 00:28:09.599 and it's hard to pinpoint really the Kanner and 00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:14.119 Asperger type of autism. Those two, people want 00:28:14.119 --> 00:28:16.680 to discriminate between Kanner and Asperger autism, 00:28:16.740 --> 00:28:19.319 but if you read the Asperger paper, there are 00:28:19.319 --> 00:28:23.220 footnotes all across the bottom showing the similarities 00:28:23.220 --> 00:28:30.440 of the two cases. And then regarding the type 00:28:30.440 --> 00:28:34.779 of light, You know, like LED has obviously, and 00:28:34.779 --> 00:28:39.480 the tech light from the 80s to current has really 00:28:39.480 --> 00:28:42.460 accelerated and so has the rates. So there are 00:28:42.460 --> 00:28:45.400 different things to normalize when comparing 00:28:45.400 --> 00:28:48.339 rates. And I don't think we do a very good job 00:28:48.339 --> 00:28:54.380 with that. But it follows. It follows so close. 00:28:55.400 --> 00:28:58.019 I mean, there's I mean, we know when you think 00:28:58.019 --> 00:29:00.039 about the role of light, sunlight, the first 00:29:00.039 --> 00:29:02.259 place that people think about is vitamin D, right? 00:29:02.440 --> 00:29:05.559 Vitamin D synthesis. And that's one big hormone. 00:29:06.440 --> 00:29:11.299 But the transduction of pigment, like across 00:29:11.299 --> 00:29:12.980 all human species, we have different pigments 00:29:12.980 --> 00:29:14.299 on our skin. You know, I might have a little 00:29:14.299 --> 00:29:17.259 bit more than the, you know, maybe you, but you 00:29:17.259 --> 00:29:19.720 still and everyone still has this transduction 00:29:19.720 --> 00:29:23.109 of pigments that transduce information and transduce 00:29:23.109 --> 00:29:26.230 energy within within the cellular environment. 00:29:26.789 --> 00:29:29.150 So I think the role of light and you know, we 00:29:29.150 --> 00:29:31.329 kind of can talk about photobiomodulation where 00:29:31.329 --> 00:29:33.289 people kind of have harnessed that they kind 00:29:33.289 --> 00:29:35.769 of see that certain intensities and wavelengths 00:29:35.769 --> 00:29:38.970 of light induce, you know, very specific effects 00:29:38.970 --> 00:29:42.589 on cells. That's great. But again, those are 00:29:42.589 --> 00:29:44.549 all artificial, right? You're picking a very 00:29:44.549 --> 00:29:47.730 narrow bandwidth of wavelengths, like, you know, 00:29:47.789 --> 00:29:51.920 with an IR and whatever, but I think environmental 00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:55.279 light is very important. Yeah. And that's what 00:29:55.279 --> 00:29:59.019 I kind of struggle with is like the lux and so 00:29:59.019 --> 00:30:03.279 forth, the amount of energy from outside to inside. 00:30:03.559 --> 00:30:05.859 I mean, like on a summer day, there's like 100 00:30:05.859 --> 00:30:10.000 ,000 to 120 ,000 lux, I believe. And indoor, 00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:12.140 you're probably only getting a couple of hundred, 00:30:12.519 --> 00:30:14.779 maybe a thousand. But from what I've checked, 00:30:14.900 --> 00:30:19.230 it's hard to get a thousand lux even. When also 00:30:19.230 --> 00:30:23.130 we think about inside the materials that we use, 00:30:23.369 --> 00:30:25.470 like glass, quartz, we know they're filters, 00:30:25.930 --> 00:30:28.029 right? They filter out certain wavelengths of 00:30:28.029 --> 00:30:31.809 light. So you can be sitting out in your sunroom, 00:30:32.109 --> 00:30:33.769 but you're going to be filtering out certain 00:30:33.769 --> 00:30:37.049 wavelengths of light. So I think the more that 00:30:37.049 --> 00:30:39.990 we understand the dynamics of and what the information 00:30:39.990 --> 00:30:43.069 of each component of light holds for biology, 00:30:43.250 --> 00:30:44.849 the better we'll understand its role in human 00:30:44.849 --> 00:30:51.710 health. Yeah, okay. So going off of that tomato 00:30:51.710 --> 00:30:55.569 analogy, like if, because plants have like life 00:30:55.569 --> 00:30:58.190 stages as well, if you take a healthy adult plant, 00:30:58.930 --> 00:31:01.430 tomato plant, let's say, and you block the sun 00:31:01.430 --> 00:31:03.910 from it, it's going to die, it's going to accelerate, 00:31:04.210 --> 00:31:06.730 it's not going to produce the tomatoes anymore, 00:31:06.730 --> 00:31:09.730 and it's going to die. And I think that's what, 00:31:09.849 --> 00:31:12.210 how we could look at dementia and Alzheimer's 00:31:12.210 --> 00:31:17.059 things. Also, the rates of those are vastly concerning. 00:31:18.200 --> 00:31:22.240 Do you see a comparison with that as well? Um 00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:25.579 with the role of like applied light or internal 00:31:25.579 --> 00:31:28.059 light because those are very different things. 00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:34.359 Yeah, just the um the the loss of energy, the 00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:36.740 loss of biological energy is the way I think 00:31:36.740 --> 00:31:40.450 about dementia and Alzheimer's here. Yeah, I 00:31:40.450 --> 00:31:43.109 mean, I'm with you. I think, you know, similar 00:31:43.109 --> 00:31:46.829 to that, not so much the loss, but the shift 00:31:46.829 --> 00:31:50.509 in energy and the patterning of energy. So one 00:31:50.509 --> 00:31:53.569 study that was published by Jiapai Dai have shown 00:31:53.569 --> 00:31:58.009 that the wavelength of light that comes from 00:31:58.009 --> 00:32:01.410 these, it was done in rodent studies, in young 00:32:01.410 --> 00:32:05.710 animals versus older animals, the light that's 00:32:05.710 --> 00:32:08.950 being emitted is redshifted. in older animals. 00:32:09.089 --> 00:32:12.130 So that tells us the energy within those biophotons 00:32:12.130 --> 00:32:15.509 are different from that of the younger animals. 00:32:16.009 --> 00:32:18.210 Same neural architecture. Yes, there might be 00:32:18.210 --> 00:32:21.150 some neural loss, but overall same architecture, 00:32:21.210 --> 00:32:25.910 but the intensity and the energy within that 00:32:25.910 --> 00:32:29.650 light is different. So that's one. And then the 00:32:29.650 --> 00:32:32.829 other thing that we see is that within EEG and 00:32:32.829 --> 00:32:35.349 electrical patterns, for example, electroencephalography, 00:32:35.690 --> 00:32:39.299 we can see that the types of electrical firing 00:32:39.299 --> 00:32:44.700 changes with time. They lose their oscillations, 00:32:44.740 --> 00:32:46.460 they're a bit more slower, they're a bit more 00:32:46.460 --> 00:32:49.960 erratic. So the physical landscape, so we can 00:32:49.960 --> 00:32:52.259 see that electrically they're different. We see 00:32:52.259 --> 00:32:54.500 that the intensity and the energy within the 00:32:54.500 --> 00:32:57.079 light that's being emitted is very different 00:32:57.079 --> 00:33:01.380 from young versus the aged population. Sorry? 00:33:02.089 --> 00:33:04.470 Whenever you say it's very different, is it decreased? 00:33:04.730 --> 00:33:07.789 Decreased, yes. It goes from blue to red, so 00:33:07.789 --> 00:33:11.390 lower energy. Lower energy, yeah. And then, so 00:33:11.390 --> 00:33:13.490 yeah, so there's two there, energy and pattern, 00:33:13.710 --> 00:33:24.589 both of them are different. Okay. So what is 00:33:24.589 --> 00:33:28.130 it doing to the cell, the overall cell, whenever 00:33:28.130 --> 00:33:32.769 it shifts from blue to red? How could you explain 00:33:32.769 --> 00:33:38.450 the cell to me? So the first kind of stepping 00:33:38.450 --> 00:33:41.509 backwards is first we kind of need to know where 00:33:41.509 --> 00:33:44.890 that light is coming from. And that's been the 00:33:44.890 --> 00:33:47.950 big question. There's a strong hypothesis that 00:33:47.950 --> 00:33:50.250 the internal light, the unstimulated light, which 00:33:50.250 --> 00:33:52.910 is what we call biophotons or UPEs, ultra -weak 00:33:52.910 --> 00:33:56.029 photon emission, there's a strong suggestion 00:33:56.029 --> 00:33:58.609 and strong hypothesis that they come from mitochondria. 00:33:58.700 --> 00:34:04.380 for mitochondrial activity. So we call them reactive 00:34:04.380 --> 00:34:09.340 oxygen species. So when cells flux the electrons, 00:34:09.719 --> 00:34:11.940 they pull off the electrons from the food that 00:34:11.940 --> 00:34:14.719 you eat into your mitochondria and they eventually 00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:18.159 end up in oxygen. That's what helps create the 00:34:18.159 --> 00:34:21.699 ATP that fuels our body. In that process, we 00:34:21.699 --> 00:34:23.960 create these things called reactive oxygen species. 00:34:24.539 --> 00:34:27.750 It's that. that produces the light. So when the 00:34:27.750 --> 00:34:31.070 formation of ROS, you get this change from high 00:34:31.070 --> 00:34:33.170 energy to low energy that produces these lights. 00:34:34.369 --> 00:34:37.989 So a couple things happen. ROS are not so good 00:34:37.989 --> 00:34:41.469 for our cells. They produce damage. They're highly 00:34:41.469 --> 00:34:43.530 reactive. It's a reactive oxygen which is going 00:34:43.530 --> 00:34:45.510 to want to pull electrons from all of your cells. 00:34:46.929 --> 00:34:50.889 So that's what we know. In terms of what this 00:34:50.889 --> 00:34:53.550 means for our cells, that's something that we're 00:34:53.550 --> 00:34:57.019 trying to figure out. The big question, I think, 00:34:57.159 --> 00:35:00.460 what we need to do is kind of blend in the biology 00:35:00.460 --> 00:35:03.260 of molecules. How do they actually interact with 00:35:03.260 --> 00:35:05.460 the light? And how does that affect the whole 00:35:05.460 --> 00:35:08.719 cell as a whole? We see this in photobiomodulation. 00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:12.380 We see that certain receptors are sensitive to 00:35:12.380 --> 00:35:14.119 light based on the intensities and energies, 00:35:14.139 --> 00:35:16.039 but we don't really understand that whole signaling 00:35:16.039 --> 00:35:19.719 cascade at all. Well, that's fascinating, too, 00:35:19.719 --> 00:35:24.650 right? melanin helps with the ROS situation and 00:35:24.650 --> 00:35:29.829 melanin is obviously absorbing, especially neuromelanin, 00:35:29.889 --> 00:35:33.809 with it being such a black substance, is absorbing 00:35:33.809 --> 00:35:36.789 all of the frequency of light. Yes, absolutely. 00:35:37.190 --> 00:35:39.630 There are other proteins within our body that 00:35:39.630 --> 00:35:42.329 absorb light, right? Like I said, every protein 00:35:42.329 --> 00:35:46.070 can be excited. with enough energy that it can 00:35:46.070 --> 00:35:49.369 be excited, it can emit light. And that's kind 00:35:49.369 --> 00:35:51.570 of what we hypothesize is happening in our brain. 00:35:51.969 --> 00:35:54.829 The biophotons that are being generated from 00:35:54.829 --> 00:35:57.489 the mitochondria aren't just random. They're 00:35:57.489 --> 00:36:00.449 used in some form of stimulation or communication 00:36:00.449 --> 00:36:02.969 with other proteins, but we need to figure out 00:36:02.969 --> 00:36:13.460 how that happens. Is the ROS in this light being 00:36:13.460 --> 00:36:16.179 created in the mitochondria or suspected to be 00:36:16.179 --> 00:36:20.119 created? Is that the things like the FO head 00:36:20.119 --> 00:36:24.119 spinning? And is it like the TCA cycle spinning 00:36:24.119 --> 00:36:28.000 catabolic or maybe even anabolic? And well, that 00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:30.440 brings up another question. Is there different 00:36:30.440 --> 00:36:34.480 light emission from catabolic to anabolic? That's 00:36:34.480 --> 00:36:38.599 clever. I don't know. I mean, we know that during 00:36:38.599 --> 00:36:42.210 TCA, the whole point of TCA is to pull the electrons 00:36:42.210 --> 00:36:44.550 from the carbon that's coming in, right? The 00:36:44.550 --> 00:36:46.949 carbon source, the glucose in some cases, the 00:36:46.949 --> 00:36:50.050 proteins in some cases. That's the goal of these 00:36:50.050 --> 00:36:52.550 steps. Eventually they end up in the electron 00:36:52.550 --> 00:36:54.829 transport chain where that electron kind of moves 00:36:54.829 --> 00:36:57.570 through it to get to its eventual home of oxygen. 00:36:59.849 --> 00:37:02.659 That oxygen... is what's going to help create 00:37:02.659 --> 00:37:06.059 this reactive oxygen species. So I'm not sure 00:37:06.059 --> 00:37:08.639 if within the TCA, there's going to be much light 00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:11.280 generation. It's most likely going to be later 00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:15.780 down the line in that process. With cytochrome 00:37:15.780 --> 00:37:17.800 c -oxidase, because I want to talk about cytochrome 00:37:17.800 --> 00:37:21.219 c -oxidase too with those red light chromophores. 00:37:23.059 --> 00:37:26.539 From what I know about the mitochondria, there's 00:37:26.539 --> 00:37:30.320 VDR, vitamin D receptors, which obviously is 00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:34.860 absorbing drawn wavelengths of light, and then 00:37:34.860 --> 00:37:37.300 the four red light chromophores and cytochrome 00:37:37.300 --> 00:37:40.280 steoxidase. If I'm not mistaken, it's heme A, 00:37:40.579 --> 00:37:44.659 heme A3, and copper A and copper B. I forget 00:37:44.659 --> 00:37:47.179 the wavelengths of light, but can you say a little 00:37:47.179 --> 00:37:51.260 bit more about that interaction? Yeah, so those 00:37:51.260 --> 00:37:54.320 two domains are the most light -sensitive within 00:37:54.320 --> 00:37:56.719 the mitochondria, and they're sensitive to red 00:37:56.719 --> 00:37:59.119 wavelengths, which is why in photobiomodulation, 00:37:59.179 --> 00:38:01.699 most of the light that you're using is red. Two 00:38:01.699 --> 00:38:03.960 reasons, actually. It's because, one, they're 00:38:03.960 --> 00:38:05.860 longer wavelengths, which means they can kind 00:38:05.860 --> 00:38:08.340 of penetrate and get into the body. That's one. 00:38:09.059 --> 00:38:12.360 Two is that, like you mentioned, cytochrome C 00:38:12.360 --> 00:38:16.699 is heme -based and copper -based, which is reactive 00:38:16.699 --> 00:38:21.550 within... I should say, receptive to red light 00:38:21.550 --> 00:38:25.690 within those intensities. But those are things 00:38:25.690 --> 00:38:28.510 where I'm actually in a collaboration right now 00:38:28.510 --> 00:38:30.630 where we're trying to measure those things in 00:38:30.630 --> 00:38:37.119 real time. OK, the red light in my country. What 00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:39.539 is naturally coming out of mitochondria on their 00:38:39.539 --> 00:38:42.300 own? Okay. Okay. Yeah. So if we know what's coming 00:38:42.300 --> 00:38:44.659 out, then we kind of know what kind of energies 00:38:44.659 --> 00:38:46.579 are there. And then then we can kind of manipulate 00:38:46.579 --> 00:38:48.980 them and reprogram them as we put them back in. 00:38:49.199 --> 00:38:52.539 Like reverse engineering. Exactly. We program 00:38:52.539 --> 00:38:56.039 them. Yeah, I always think about the oxidative 00:38:56.039 --> 00:38:59.139 phosphorylation as I want to reverse engineer 00:38:59.139 --> 00:39:02.840 ATPase. And I think that that's a good way of 00:39:02.840 --> 00:39:06.949 looking at it. Because you can just kind of find 00:39:06.949 --> 00:39:10.010 out any deficiency there. And you can kind of 00:39:10.010 --> 00:39:11.829 go backwards and kind of follow that electron 00:39:11.829 --> 00:39:16.829 backwards. I mean, to me mitochondria are pretty 00:39:16.829 --> 00:39:18.869 fascinating from an evolutionary and physics 00:39:18.869 --> 00:39:21.269 point of view because, you know, they were bacteria 00:39:21.269 --> 00:39:24.590 on their own and bacteria are magnetoreceptive. 00:39:24.929 --> 00:39:27.769 Bacteria also respond to light in a very interesting 00:39:27.769 --> 00:39:31.329 way. So the fact that they're within our cells, 00:39:31.510 --> 00:39:33.329 you know, some of that information must have 00:39:33.329 --> 00:39:43.489 been kept. Okay. Let me ask you about, are these 00:39:43.489 --> 00:39:46.489 bio photons and I hope I didn't miss something. 00:39:46.769 --> 00:39:49.510 Are the bio photons interacting with other parts 00:39:49.510 --> 00:39:53.030 within us? For instance, leptin or the three 00:39:53.030 --> 00:39:56.349 aromatic amino acids? I guess a better question 00:39:56.349 --> 00:40:07.260 is, is the UPEs synthesizing proteins? Oh. Again, 00:40:07.539 --> 00:40:10.980 very little evidence to support this, but theoretically, 00:40:11.840 --> 00:40:14.840 my hypothesis would be that they wouldn't be 00:40:14.840 --> 00:40:20.460 because UPEs are pretty low energy, like a single 00:40:20.460 --> 00:40:25.800 photon that would be emitted from, or basically 00:40:25.800 --> 00:40:28.639 a biop photon would be relatively low energy. 00:40:29.239 --> 00:40:34.199 You either need a lot of them over time, Or you 00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:38.579 need like a high -intensity light generation 00:40:38.579 --> 00:40:41.079 to induce protein conformational change. It's 00:40:41.079 --> 00:40:43.420 a lot of energy that's required to break these 00:40:43.420 --> 00:40:46.619 bonds, right? To kind of break them and change 00:40:46.619 --> 00:40:49.820 the shape of these proteins. So my guess would 00:40:49.820 --> 00:40:52.360 be that I don't think they do. I think they might 00:40:52.360 --> 00:40:55.360 have another signaling role. Maybe it could be 00:40:55.360 --> 00:40:59.869 like there's a... work done by Carmen Mothersgill 00:40:59.869 --> 00:41:03.250 from Hamilton, Ontario in Canada, who's shown 00:41:03.250 --> 00:41:06.969 that biophotons can act as and induce what we 00:41:06.969 --> 00:41:10.489 call the bystander effect, where one cell can 00:41:10.489 --> 00:41:12.969 kind of communicate with each other, where one 00:41:12.969 --> 00:41:15.469 cell emits the photons and that energy itself 00:41:15.469 --> 00:41:18.329 can kind of induce another reaction or behavior 00:41:18.329 --> 00:41:23.320 from a cell. So. they see this especially after 00:41:23.320 --> 00:41:26.300 radiation exposure, where even after the radiation 00:41:26.300 --> 00:41:30.000 is gone, cells are kind of reacting to each other. 00:41:30.059 --> 00:41:31.760 And even though there's no information and there's 00:41:31.760 --> 00:41:33.719 no proteins being shuttled around, they're still 00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:36.579 light. So they kind of hypothesize that this 00:41:36.579 --> 00:41:38.900 bystander effect is a communication modality. 00:41:39.679 --> 00:41:41.579 So to answer your question about whether these 00:41:41.579 --> 00:41:44.119 biophotons can induce protein changes, protein 00:41:44.119 --> 00:41:47.760 level changes, I don't think so. But again, we 00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:50.909 don't have much evidence for that. Okay. I've 00:41:50.909 --> 00:41:56.269 heard that bacteria will synthesize tyrosine, 00:41:56.369 --> 00:42:00.110 and it makes dopamine. But I also want to say, 00:42:01.530 --> 00:42:04.829 because I wrestle with this, with the aromatic 00:42:04.829 --> 00:42:09.429 amino acids, phenylalanine peaks at 260 nanometers, 00:42:09.730 --> 00:42:12.130 and then tryptophan and tyrosine is close to 00:42:12.130 --> 00:42:17.929 280. The tryptophan is really exciting, because 00:42:17.929 --> 00:42:21.960 tryptophan And the interaction with tryptophan 00:42:21.960 --> 00:42:24.139 and microtubules, for example. Yeah, I was going 00:42:24.139 --> 00:42:26.219 to ask you about microtubules, for sure. Yeah. 00:42:26.300 --> 00:42:28.800 So tubulin itself is also photosensitive, right? 00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:31.000 It's photosensitive within the UV range, which 00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:37.179 is similar to tryptophan, right? And so tryptophan 00:42:37.179 --> 00:42:39.860 being also a precursor to melatonin, which is 00:42:39.860 --> 00:42:42.039 also light sensitive. So there's like a lot of 00:42:42.039 --> 00:42:46.460 these interactions happening. And goes back to 00:42:46.460 --> 00:42:51.429 the mitochondria. Correct. Yeah, OK. Yeah, no, 00:42:51.530 --> 00:42:54.630 no. So the thing to really think about that we 00:42:54.630 --> 00:42:57.809 need evidence for is what is the wavelength of 00:42:57.809 --> 00:42:59.409 light? Because that wavelength of light will 00:42:59.409 --> 00:43:02.289 tell us the energy, the energetics of that photon. 00:43:03.389 --> 00:43:06.949 Two, do we have enough intensity or energy to 00:43:06.949 --> 00:43:10.309 influence biology? Perhaps it just takes one 00:43:10.309 --> 00:43:13.349 photon to induce a signal, but we don't know. 00:43:13.449 --> 00:43:17.369 We don't know if that is actually enough. Okay. 00:43:18.409 --> 00:43:23.670 So I wrestled with now I get that TPH1 tryptophan 00:43:23.670 --> 00:43:27.210 hydroxylase 1 is on the surface in keratinocytes 00:43:27.210 --> 00:43:31.829 and I get how that would be synthesized for the 00:43:31.829 --> 00:43:36.510 tryptophan but the the internal tryptophan entire 00:43:36.510 --> 00:43:41.150 scene and how that is being synthesized because 00:43:41.150 --> 00:43:43.250 I don't necessarily think it's just all from 00:43:43.250 --> 00:43:46.889 food and maybe you can correct me but I'm learning 00:43:46.889 --> 00:43:50.630 it's not. What's not from food? The energy conversions? 00:43:51.550 --> 00:43:56.429 Yeah, for tyrosine and tryptophan. Hmm, yeah, 00:43:56.610 --> 00:43:59.690 I'm not too sure. I haven't really looked into 00:43:59.690 --> 00:44:03.610 too much of that, so I'm not sure. Again, if 00:44:03.610 --> 00:44:05.610 the available energy in the system is not enough, 00:44:05.929 --> 00:44:08.670 then nothing is going to happen, right? So if 00:44:08.670 --> 00:44:11.920 we're going to say that light is the... Kind 00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:13.980 of the conduit for this conversion there needs 00:44:13.980 --> 00:44:15.739 to be enough energy within that light and I'm 00:44:15.739 --> 00:44:19.760 not sure that the biophotons is that Okay. Well, 00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:27.320 that's good information Can you talk about the 00:44:27.320 --> 00:44:32.719 microtubules a little bit What I know I'll just 00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:37.119 tell you what I know so The cytoskeleton is involved 00:44:37.119 --> 00:44:40.179 and they're almost like a train track for the 00:44:40.179 --> 00:44:43.329 cells But can you just expand on my lack of knowledge 00:44:43.329 --> 00:44:46.670 there? Yeah. So the cytoskeleton, as you mentioned, 00:44:46.869 --> 00:44:50.949 is made up of microtubules. There's actin as 00:44:50.949 --> 00:44:55.989 well within the scaffold. But specifically within 00:44:55.989 --> 00:44:59.889 microtubules, the tubulin proteins form these 00:44:59.889 --> 00:45:02.670 dimers. They polymerize. And they basically create 00:45:02.670 --> 00:45:05.690 a spiral shape, where what's really exciting 00:45:05.690 --> 00:45:08.489 is that the tubulin creates these spirals that 00:45:08.489 --> 00:45:11.469 kind of creates the rod, but inside of that rod 00:45:11.469 --> 00:45:14.590 is water. There is what we call coherent water 00:45:14.590 --> 00:45:18.610 or ordered water within that domain. And this 00:45:18.610 --> 00:45:21.489 brings up a whole other conversation about the 00:45:21.489 --> 00:45:24.469 types of energies that this water can hold. And 00:45:24.469 --> 00:45:26.650 I kind of also want to mention that when we are 00:45:26.650 --> 00:45:29.010 talking about photons, we're talking about photons, 00:45:29.349 --> 00:45:31.750 bio photons, all that, but they're still within 00:45:31.750 --> 00:45:34.119 the electromagnetic spectrum. Right? So you're 00:45:34.119 --> 00:45:36.239 talking about electromagnetic energies at this 00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:39.860 point. So microtubules and Stuart Hammeroff is 00:45:39.860 --> 00:45:43.639 a strong expert here to have linked this to consciousness 00:45:43.639 --> 00:45:48.500 and conscious awareness. But the tubulin dimers, 00:45:48.500 --> 00:45:53.860 they create a form of energetic resonance in 00:45:53.860 --> 00:45:56.739 terms of the type of light energies that can 00:45:56.739 --> 00:45:59.519 interact with them. So they are tryptophan, like 00:45:59.519 --> 00:46:02.150 as you mentioned, is UV -leaning. in terms of 00:46:02.150 --> 00:46:05.690 the type of emissions that come out from these 00:46:05.690 --> 00:46:09.369 proteins. So I think from 280 to like low 300 00:46:09.369 --> 00:46:11.949 nanometers. So within the UV side of things. 00:46:13.510 --> 00:46:16.360 Yeah, so there's... Lots of people have shown 00:46:16.360 --> 00:46:18.380 that electromagnetic fields can interact with 00:46:18.380 --> 00:46:21.860 these tubulin proteins and that so basically 00:46:21.860 --> 00:46:24.159 polymerization is when you take each of these 00:46:24.159 --> 00:46:26.599 tubulin and they kind of form like a little network 00:46:26.599 --> 00:46:29.000 like little Lego blocks that can attach to each 00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:31.360 other and when they depolymerize they kind of 00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:34.260 loosen. So you can kind of imagine them as like 00:46:34.260 --> 00:46:38.960 a tightrope walker. If the tightrope is too loose 00:46:38.960 --> 00:46:42.719 the proteins on top can't actually move and they 00:46:42.719 --> 00:46:45.199 kind of fall apart. If they're too tight, they 00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:47.440 can there you risk of over polymerization or 00:46:47.440 --> 00:46:50.599 damaging them. Okay, that's a great analogy. 00:46:51.179 --> 00:46:55.079 This water that you just mentioned with the microtubules, 00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:57.800 is that different than the cytochrome c oxidase? 00:46:58.760 --> 00:47:02.760 Yeah, yeah. So cytochrome c oxidase is specific 00:47:02.760 --> 00:47:05.360 to not always specific, but we typically in the 00:47:05.360 --> 00:47:08.619 context of mitochondria. I'm not aware of them 00:47:08.619 --> 00:47:13.000 being in my inside of skeleton are tubulin microtubules. 00:47:13.880 --> 00:47:16.739 Yeah, it's just tubulin dimers within that space. 00:47:17.940 --> 00:47:22.559 Okay. Yeah, I didn't know like, where that water 00:47:22.559 --> 00:47:25.800 is coming from. Ah, it's coming from the environment. 00:47:26.660 --> 00:47:30.179 So the cell itself, it's not dry, it's sitting 00:47:30.179 --> 00:47:34.880 in water. So the water also, like a small percent 00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:37.679 of that water is generated from the mitochondria. 00:47:38.579 --> 00:47:41.679 Small percent? Yeah, about four percent. Every 00:47:41.679 --> 00:47:46.639 time an ATP, an energy molecule is made... it 00:47:46.639 --> 00:47:49.420 can only be made at the same time of water. So 00:47:49.420 --> 00:47:52.440 when that electron gets to the oxygen, it pulls 00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:55.960 in two hydrogens from the intermembrane space 00:47:55.960 --> 00:47:59.440 and then generates water. So every time you create 00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:05.039 energy, you are also creating water. And this 00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:10.380 is why like going outside, I think, or going 00:48:10.380 --> 00:48:15.590 outside, it's like much different energy. Absolutely. 00:48:16.809 --> 00:48:20.869 Different intensities, different wavelengths, 00:48:21.070 --> 00:48:25.690 all of that. It's so energizing outside. You 00:48:25.690 --> 00:48:27.789 don't even feel like you have to eat as much 00:48:27.789 --> 00:48:30.989 because you're stimulating and all that. Yeah. 00:48:31.570 --> 00:48:34.010 There's some recent work that I've read that 00:48:34.010 --> 00:48:37.550 is really exciting about oxygenation. Outside, 00:48:37.929 --> 00:48:41.170 there's a lot more free oxygen. The breathing 00:48:41.170 --> 00:48:43.150 rates change, and when we change the breathing 00:48:43.150 --> 00:48:49.119 rates, you're able to change that electron flux, 00:48:49.340 --> 00:48:51.199 right? Like how much is actually getting to the 00:48:51.199 --> 00:48:53.079 cells and how much is actually fluxing through. 00:48:53.599 --> 00:48:59.280 So yeah, it's a multi -dimensional process. I 00:48:59.280 --> 00:49:03.059 have a PhD or MD PhD. He's like the leading researcher 00:49:03.059 --> 00:49:06.619 on autism metabolism. He said that the whole 00:49:06.619 --> 00:49:09.639 reason we breathe is so cytochrome oxidase can 00:49:09.639 --> 00:49:12.940 function. And I'm thinking about like being outside, 00:49:13.000 --> 00:49:17.840 especially in the woods, or around a lot of plants, 00:49:18.099 --> 00:49:21.960 trees, and so forth because they're putting off 00:49:21.960 --> 00:49:25.199 red light or near infrared light. They're admitting 00:49:25.199 --> 00:49:30.039 that. And oxygen. right? They're definitely also 00:49:30.039 --> 00:49:32.519 like absorbing the carbon dioxide that we're 00:49:32.519 --> 00:49:35.539 expelling and have a more available oxygen for 00:49:35.539 --> 00:49:39.840 us. So yeah, there was a paper that I put out 00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:44.340 there, shared that our brain activities are very 00:49:44.340 --> 00:49:47.349 different when we are exposed to nature. And 00:49:47.349 --> 00:49:49.110 it's not just pictures of nature when you're 00:49:49.110 --> 00:49:52.449 actually in nature, that you have lower oscillations, 00:49:52.710 --> 00:49:55.090 less high frequency brain activity. So a lot 00:49:55.090 --> 00:49:58.269 more calm, a lot more steady state then. And 00:49:58.269 --> 00:50:00.269 I think anyone who's been to woods would feel 00:50:00.269 --> 00:50:04.610 that way. So is it just ranging like at theta 00:50:04.610 --> 00:50:09.519 or even like up to alpha or what? It was more 00:50:09.519 --> 00:50:12.300 alpha activity produced within the frontal lobes. 00:50:12.659 --> 00:50:16.019 And those who were walking outside, being outside, 00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:18.659 being around nature, then I mean, there's also 00:50:18.659 --> 00:50:20.820 studies that actually show the same thing in 00:50:20.820 --> 00:50:23.360 running, running outside versus running on a 00:50:23.360 --> 00:50:25.420 treadmill. You know, you are moving your body, 00:50:25.460 --> 00:50:28.280 but there's something about being outside, having 00:50:28.280 --> 00:50:32.239 that free flow of breathing, access to oxygen, 00:50:32.679 --> 00:50:35.800 less stagnant air, light, all of this plays a 00:50:35.800 --> 00:50:38.650 role. Yeah, I'm a big fan of running and there's 00:50:38.650 --> 00:50:42.670 a huge difference. People get that runner's high 00:50:42.670 --> 00:50:46.130 and it's pretty common. Yeah. I'm the exact opposite. 00:50:46.230 --> 00:50:51.190 I can't run outside. This is, I think, a little 00:50:51.190 --> 00:50:53.530 bit more cognitive. It's because I'm too relaxed 00:50:53.530 --> 00:50:56.489 outside. I don't feel that urgency, that rush 00:50:56.489 --> 00:51:01.780 outside. So there's something there. And that 00:51:01.780 --> 00:51:04.360 maybe speaks to what you were saying though about, 00:51:04.360 --> 00:51:06.820 you know, the alpha wave and just being calm. 00:51:07.139 --> 00:51:09.960 Maybe that's differently. Yeah. I don't, I don't 00:51:09.960 --> 00:51:11.420 feel that, you know, you know, when you're running, 00:51:11.420 --> 00:51:13.539 you're that, that excitement to run that you 00:51:13.539 --> 00:51:15.219 just want to get going. I don't feel that outside. 00:51:15.300 --> 00:51:17.139 I see a treadmill and I'm ready to go, ready 00:51:17.139 --> 00:51:20.760 to go. But I outside, I, I, I'm envious because 00:51:20.760 --> 00:51:23.260 my friends who run marathons, they, they're outside 00:51:23.260 --> 00:51:25.619 and they can go. And I don't have that urge or 00:51:25.619 --> 00:51:30.860 energy. Hmm. It kind of makes me think about 00:51:30.860 --> 00:51:33.900 locus aurelius and make the substantial nigra, 00:51:34.019 --> 00:51:36.239 especially the compacta with that neuromelanin 00:51:36.239 --> 00:51:39.000 that you mentioned earlier. Dopamine. Yeah, yeah, 00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:43.139 yeah. And the norepinephrine, yeah. Like persisting 00:51:43.139 --> 00:51:46.800 and getting going. Yeah, I mean, the substantial 00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:49.420 nigra as... filled with melanin, neuromelanin, 00:51:49.480 --> 00:51:52.119 for example, as you know, and that is also blue 00:51:52.119 --> 00:51:55.400 shifted UV leaning in terms of absorption and 00:51:55.400 --> 00:51:58.019 emission. So there's some structures that are 00:51:58.019 --> 00:52:01.059 obviously light sensitive in those regions, super, 00:52:01.059 --> 00:52:04.000 super deep brain structures, but there's still 00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:07.880 light, light receptive in there. Yeah, the mesencephalon. 00:52:08.579 --> 00:52:11.639 The mesencephalon holds key details into autism, 00:52:11.780 --> 00:52:17.059 I believe. And I don't know why neuroepithel... 00:52:17.150 --> 00:52:21.030 those four cell types, proencephalon, mesencephalon, 00:52:21.170 --> 00:52:23.210 and rhombencephalon, and then the fourth one 00:52:23.210 --> 00:52:26.650 that's responsible for the spine. The mesencephalon 00:52:26.650 --> 00:52:30.210 is so small, but it isn't further subdivided. 00:52:30.250 --> 00:52:33.030 Like, it's done. You're talking about the midbrain? 00:52:33.070 --> 00:52:37.070 Like, midbrain pons? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, those 00:52:37.070 --> 00:52:39.050 regions are, you know, evolutionary conserved. 00:52:39.070 --> 00:52:42.960 Those are what kind of gives our basic or I should 00:52:42.960 --> 00:52:45.840 say vital functions, right? The pons, the midbrain 00:52:45.840 --> 00:52:50.920 kind of help regulate breathing, cardiac rhythms, 00:52:51.019 --> 00:52:55.219 things like this. But I'm not too sure of any 00:52:55.219 --> 00:52:58.480 light -specific receptors in those area. So I'm 00:52:58.480 --> 00:52:59.840 not sure I can comment too much on that. Would 00:52:59.840 --> 00:53:02.739 it be the... Oh, okay. Like the neuromelanin 00:53:02.739 --> 00:53:04.940 is what I was thinking. Okay, yeah. Neuromelanin 00:53:04.940 --> 00:53:07.960 is distributed everywhere. Yeah. Especially in 00:53:07.960 --> 00:53:11.369 the midbrain is what I've learned. Yes. Yeah, 00:53:11.409 --> 00:53:15.329 so the raffae nucleus which produces serotonin 00:53:15.329 --> 00:53:20.210 is also red red light sensitive So there might 00:53:20.210 --> 00:53:22.989 be some link again more research I don't want 00:53:22.989 --> 00:53:25.050 to give conclusive statements but because the 00:53:25.050 --> 00:53:27.769 raffae and because serotonin itself is very light 00:53:27.769 --> 00:53:30.530 sensitive and you Sarah serotonin is a very exciting 00:53:30.530 --> 00:53:32.489 neurotransmitter talk about because it's super 00:53:32.489 --> 00:53:36.409 very important in neurodevelopment We see that 00:53:36.809 --> 00:53:39.889 In early neurodevelopment, if you manipulate 00:53:39.889 --> 00:53:42.989 bioelectrically these cells to kind of manipulate 00:53:42.989 --> 00:53:47.349 serotonin 5 -HT receptors, you get all sorts 00:53:47.349 --> 00:53:50.289 of brain development dysfunctions, optic nerve 00:53:50.289 --> 00:53:53.969 dysfunctions. And again, serotonin, raffae nucleus, 00:53:54.210 --> 00:53:56.610 5 -HT, all red light sensitive. So there might 00:53:56.610 --> 00:54:00.769 be a link there to explore. Wow. I want to ask 00:54:00.769 --> 00:54:06.699 you another analogy. Because we're talking about 00:54:06.699 --> 00:54:09.480 nature a little bit too. The trees in the winter 00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:15.099 will kind of represent how our bodies are, especially 00:54:15.099 --> 00:54:17.760 at these higher latitudes in the winter. I mean, 00:54:18.219 --> 00:54:20.900 they're not we're not doing the the bio photons 00:54:20.900 --> 00:54:23.960 as much like we're not lit up inside as much. 00:54:24.199 --> 00:54:27.239 I don't know. I the data doesn't support that. 00:54:27.960 --> 00:54:30.760 So yeah, so we've done this. So the paper that 00:54:30.760 --> 00:54:34.579 we have published, that study was done over a 00:54:34.579 --> 00:54:37.940 two year period. And we haven't published this 00:54:37.940 --> 00:54:42.280 just yet, but there is no difference in biophoton 00:54:42.280 --> 00:54:45.019 emission of the same person that was recorded 00:54:45.019 --> 00:54:48.480 over seasons. So the amount of light coming out 00:54:48.480 --> 00:54:51.949 of a person, there's no different. So. So it's 00:54:51.949 --> 00:54:54.590 not contingent on environment, something internal, 00:54:54.710 --> 00:54:56.889 and we maybe think it's metabolism, maybe it's 00:54:56.889 --> 00:54:59.050 mitochondria, we don't know yet, but there's 00:54:59.050 --> 00:55:01.170 no difference between people. So the graduate 00:55:01.170 --> 00:55:04.449 student that was on the study, we had her record 00:55:04.449 --> 00:55:08.170 herself every month biophotonically over the 00:55:08.170 --> 00:55:12.329 year, and there's no real differences. Did you 00:55:12.329 --> 00:55:17.960 track a subjective mood during the season? So 00:55:17.960 --> 00:55:23.920 we did do questionnaires related to mood. I would 00:55:23.920 --> 00:55:26.460 have to look back on that data to kind of, but 00:55:26.460 --> 00:55:29.800 nothing stands out. The one thing that we're 00:55:29.800 --> 00:55:32.420 kind of getting ready to put out there is to 00:55:32.420 --> 00:55:36.650 show that skin type. using the Fitzpatrick scale 00:55:36.650 --> 00:55:41.929 is a strong correlate of how correlated the brain 00:55:41.929 --> 00:55:44.309 activity is going to be to the brain activity 00:55:44.309 --> 00:55:46.469 of light is going to be with the electrical activity. 00:55:46.889 --> 00:55:50.670 So the more pigmentation, which means you're 00:55:50.670 --> 00:55:54.030 higher on that Fitzpatrick scale, the more correlated 00:55:54.030 --> 00:55:56.929 the light activity to the electrical activity. 00:55:57.730 --> 00:56:00.610 What does this mean? This is something that we 00:56:00.610 --> 00:56:03.889 need to think about. I have some ideas it could 00:56:03.889 --> 00:56:06.469 suggest that that pigmentation across the surface 00:56:06.469 --> 00:56:08.670 pigmentation that we see has something to do 00:56:08.670 --> 00:56:11.989 with maybe reflecting that light back in or maybe 00:56:11.989 --> 00:56:14.489 involved in kind of transduction, but these are 00:56:14.489 --> 00:56:16.909 again speculations that we have to validate. 00:56:18.090 --> 00:56:21.929 Autistic children are so pale. Yeah, they're 00:56:21.929 --> 00:56:25.769 so pale. I hope people notice that now because 00:56:25.769 --> 00:56:30.269 you can't see it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I didn't know 00:56:30.269 --> 00:56:34.090 that. Thank you for sharing. Yeah, and I think 00:56:34.090 --> 00:56:36.809 it goes along with this, with that, like the 00:56:36.809 --> 00:56:41.070 bioelectric and the development. Yeah, I mean, 00:56:41.369 --> 00:56:45.550 I know there's like, I think this opens up the 00:56:45.550 --> 00:56:49.369 door for people to look at cell types from these 00:56:49.369 --> 00:56:51.989 kinds of signals, like even bioelectrically, 00:56:52.210 --> 00:56:55.329 are the cells at a different resting membrane 00:56:55.329 --> 00:56:58.889 potential than what we call a healthy counterpart? 00:56:59.050 --> 00:57:05.179 I'm not sure. Okay. Is there a difference between 00:57:05.179 --> 00:57:07.699 the amount of bio photons with somebody that's 00:57:07.699 --> 00:57:10.300 suffering depression versus somebody that's not? 00:57:10.639 --> 00:57:15.079 Or if it's the same subject, whenever they're 00:57:15.079 --> 00:57:18.420 going through a depressive like episode versus 00:57:18.420 --> 00:57:21.260 whenever their mood is good? Great question. 00:57:21.500 --> 00:57:25.519 This is why we started this study. So our interest 00:57:25.519 --> 00:57:28.280 was actually to look specifically in a population. 00:57:28.639 --> 00:57:32.619 Have you heard of chemo brain? Yeah, so these 00:57:32.619 --> 00:57:35.539 are individuals who are going through anticancer 00:57:35.539 --> 00:57:37.719 therapies and you know, it's very toxic also 00:57:37.719 --> 00:57:40.460 kills off their brain cells and they start to 00:57:40.460 --> 00:57:42.769 develop some of these symptoms of aggressions 00:57:42.769 --> 00:57:46.750 for some people, depression, lack of connection, 00:57:46.889 --> 00:57:49.050 social empathy, things like this. But there's 00:57:49.050 --> 00:57:51.650 no way of detecting who's going to get it. So 00:57:51.650 --> 00:57:54.789 we developed the photoencephalography to pick 00:57:54.789 --> 00:57:58.489 up those neural changes from before they start 00:57:58.489 --> 00:58:00.510 chemo all the way to the end. And that's kind 00:58:00.510 --> 00:58:03.210 of like why we developed it. And we're starting 00:58:03.210 --> 00:58:05.070 that clinical trial right now, actually. We're 00:58:05.070 --> 00:58:11.650 kind of halfway in. OK. Yeah. That's fascinating 00:58:11.650 --> 00:58:15.329 stuff you have a The cancer treatment is part 00:58:15.329 --> 00:58:18.289 of your background if I'm not mistaken in a motivation 00:58:18.289 --> 00:58:20.730 Yeah, yeah, I mean this is kind of where it all 00:58:20.730 --> 00:58:24.809 started working with cancer cells it the the 00:58:24.809 --> 00:58:26.989 question that drives me and it still drives me 00:58:26.989 --> 00:58:31.829 today is Why doesn't our body or our brains know 00:58:31.829 --> 00:58:34.380 there's cancer in our body? Like when there's 00:58:34.380 --> 00:58:38.420 an infection or when you break a bone, you kind 00:58:38.420 --> 00:58:40.019 of can, you know, like, you know, something's 00:58:40.019 --> 00:58:44.559 not well here or there, but why doesn't our brain 00:58:44.559 --> 00:58:47.760 recognize that there's cancer? The obvious answer 00:58:47.760 --> 00:58:49.579 that people go to is that, you know, cancer is 00:58:49.579 --> 00:58:52.099 ourself, right? It's our own cells that are going 00:58:52.099 --> 00:58:55.699 wrong. But I, and that's kind of what it motivated 00:58:55.699 --> 00:58:58.179 is, is there like an electromagnetic communication 00:58:58.179 --> 00:59:01.460 or some sort of biophysical communication that's 00:59:01.460 --> 00:59:03.869 camouflaged? that the brain doesn't recognize 00:59:03.869 --> 00:59:07.170 anymore. And that's what it was motivated. And 00:59:07.170 --> 00:59:10.289 so my early work in my PhD, we recorded these 00:59:10.289 --> 00:59:13.269 biophoton cell signals from cancer cells. And 00:59:13.269 --> 00:59:15.070 we see that they have a very, very different 00:59:15.070 --> 00:59:16.809 fingerprint from their healthy counterparts. 00:59:19.909 --> 00:59:23.130 That's interesting. The amount of research now 00:59:23.130 --> 00:59:27.889 on the photobiomodulation and helping so many 00:59:27.889 --> 00:59:31.929 diverse conditions is very promising, I think. 00:59:32.139 --> 00:59:34.679 I'm not saying that's related to cancer, but 00:59:34.679 --> 00:59:39.639 I know of photobiomodulation studies on autism. 00:59:39.960 --> 00:59:44.460 I can't wait for that data. So it's very powerful 00:59:44.460 --> 00:59:48.079 stuff. I want to ask you, when people are in 00:59:48.079 --> 00:59:50.619 an energetic discussion, like they're really 00:59:50.619 --> 00:59:53.719 enjoying each other's company, are the biophotons 00:59:53.719 --> 00:59:57.860 and even coherence increased? Oh, great question. 00:59:57.920 --> 01:00:00.940 So we know this electrically. We know that when 01:00:00.940 --> 01:00:03.619 people vibe, as they say, when people are vibing, 01:00:03.940 --> 01:00:07.380 there is a coherent brain coherence between two 01:00:07.380 --> 01:00:09.900 people. They do these studies of hyper scanning 01:00:09.900 --> 01:00:13.019 to two different people at the same time in synced 01:00:13.019 --> 01:00:15.659 ways. We do see that there's synced coherence 01:00:15.659 --> 01:00:19.340 in brain activity by photons to be determined. 01:00:19.599 --> 01:00:23.360 We just have started this this journey and recording 01:00:23.360 --> 01:00:27.260 light emissions. But that's a great thing to 01:00:27.260 --> 01:00:30.539 try. Yeah, it's very fascinating because it's 01:00:30.539 --> 01:00:33.780 like out of our control whenever we meet like 01:00:33.780 --> 01:00:36.139 let's say a stranger or somebody that we've just 01:00:36.139 --> 01:00:39.179 kind of started meeting and You know, sometimes 01:00:39.179 --> 01:00:41.820 there's a connection there like you can have 01:00:41.820 --> 01:00:44.619 a legitimate Connection and other times this 01:00:44.619 --> 01:00:47.079 is like nothing. So I always think about like 01:00:47.079 --> 01:00:50.639 the quantum biology Aspects that could be in 01:00:50.639 --> 01:00:56.380 play here What what are some things more recently 01:00:56.380 --> 01:01:00.670 that you're excited about I'm very excited about 01:01:00.670 --> 01:01:05.929 seeing how much of the molecular signals that 01:01:05.929 --> 01:01:09.789 we know is actually downstream to the quantum 01:01:09.789 --> 01:01:12.050 signals, to the electromagnetic and to the photonic. 01:01:12.150 --> 01:01:16.449 That's kind of my big interest right now. something 01:01:16.449 --> 01:01:19.170 that is very apparent, especially because I've 01:01:19.170 --> 01:01:21.010 done a lot of work within the cancer domain. 01:01:22.130 --> 01:01:25.190 There are proteins that may or may not be present 01:01:25.190 --> 01:01:28.289 in certain cancers, but there are light signatures 01:01:28.289 --> 01:01:30.449 and light frequencies that are apparent in all 01:01:30.449 --> 01:01:35.710 of them. So to me, this dynamics of light electromagnetism 01:01:35.710 --> 01:01:38.329 is more of a unifier and more of an easy way 01:01:38.329 --> 01:01:41.150 to discriminate between healthy and non -healthy 01:01:41.150 --> 01:01:44.269 cells. than proteins are, because proteins in 01:01:44.269 --> 01:01:46.590 some people you might express them, some people 01:01:46.590 --> 01:01:48.550 you may not. And then the other thing is you 01:01:48.550 --> 01:01:50.130 need to have an accumulation of these proteins 01:01:50.130 --> 01:01:54.570 to even measure them. So that's really exciting. 01:01:54.710 --> 01:01:56.369 And then some of the things that we talked about 01:01:56.369 --> 01:02:01.289 today is these very different experiences. Can 01:02:01.289 --> 01:02:05.250 we classify these experiences using physics? 01:02:05.389 --> 01:02:08.150 So one aspect that we're starting to look into 01:02:08.150 --> 01:02:11.920 psychedelics. within the psychedelic community, 01:02:12.880 --> 01:02:15.420 some subjective experiences that is often talked 01:02:15.420 --> 01:02:18.300 about is that when they have a psychedelic experience, 01:02:18.500 --> 01:02:21.840 they see light. It's something that everyone 01:02:21.840 --> 01:02:24.960 talks about is that things are brighter, things 01:02:24.960 --> 01:02:27.559 are clearer, they see light, they see color. 01:02:28.280 --> 01:02:30.900 What is it about our brain that when we have 01:02:30.900 --> 01:02:32.760 this altered states of consciousness that, you 01:02:32.760 --> 01:02:35.139 know, light is the emergent front thing, front 01:02:35.139 --> 01:02:37.780 and center, right? And then, you know, like you 01:02:37.780 --> 01:02:39.949 mentioned, when we think about depression, we 01:02:39.949 --> 01:02:42.829 think about anxiety, things are darker, things 01:02:42.829 --> 01:02:46.230 are less vibrant. There's a change in the intensity 01:02:46.230 --> 01:02:50.489 and the vibrancy of color. So, you know, those 01:02:50.489 --> 01:02:53.389 are and I don't know if there's any kind of relationship 01:02:53.389 --> 01:02:55.989 there to autism in terms of perception of color 01:02:55.989 --> 01:02:58.889 and light. Those are things that we that I'm 01:02:58.889 --> 01:03:02.030 very, very interested in looking into. Yeah, 01:03:02.289 --> 01:03:05.030 but the whole artistic sensory processing may 01:03:05.030 --> 01:03:07.980 have those heightened. event -related potentials, 01:03:08.059 --> 01:03:11.360 especially like early on in the sensory processing. 01:03:12.159 --> 01:03:14.079 Yeah, that's more on the, yeah, exactly on the 01:03:14.079 --> 01:03:16.039 processing side, but I'm curious more on the 01:03:16.039 --> 01:03:20.079 subjective experience side. Because I know like 01:03:20.079 --> 01:03:23.420 light sensitivity can induce neural changes, 01:03:23.599 --> 01:03:25.239 right? Like in the ERPs, like you're talking 01:03:25.239 --> 01:03:27.880 about the potentials, but the actual subjective 01:03:27.880 --> 01:03:31.699 experience of light, are they consistent across 01:03:31.699 --> 01:03:34.960 people with autism? I'm not sure. Yeah, okay. 01:03:36.580 --> 01:03:40.320 but as I wrote down to make a note here that 01:03:40.320 --> 01:03:43.260 uh after I leave like hiking or spending time 01:03:43.260 --> 01:03:47.320 in the woods it seems like my my visual clarity 01:03:47.320 --> 01:03:50.500 is increased like I and I can see like things 01:03:50.500 --> 01:03:54.559 are brighter I don't know if other people share 01:03:54.559 --> 01:03:58.119 that from people I've talked to about this they 01:03:58.119 --> 01:04:01.360 share it but I mean there could be a couple things 01:04:01.360 --> 01:04:04.760 that go on I mean Typically with visual acuity, 01:04:04.920 --> 01:04:10.619 what you're talking about is a sympathetic nervous 01:04:10.619 --> 01:04:13.039 response. There could be some of that. Again, 01:04:13.260 --> 01:04:15.659 breathing does this as well. I mean, breathwork 01:04:15.659 --> 01:04:19.420 has become like, I'm starting to learn how really 01:04:19.420 --> 01:04:23.340 strong it is into our physiology. Increasing 01:04:23.340 --> 01:04:27.079 oxygenation, decreasing carbon dioxide or intake. 01:04:28.019 --> 01:04:32.019 having less carbon dioxide in our body. Yeah, 01:04:32.300 --> 01:04:34.699 I think that those are where those relationships 01:04:34.699 --> 01:04:37.380 lie. I'm not sure how they relate so much to 01:04:37.380 --> 01:04:40.719 light. Light can actually maybe support the bioconversion 01:04:40.719 --> 01:04:46.539 of some of these molecules. But yeah, that would 01:04:46.539 --> 01:04:49.880 be my guess. Yeah, that makes sense. Probably 01:04:49.880 --> 01:04:53.380 within that mitochondria, maybe. And being the 01:04:53.380 --> 01:04:55.679 so -called powerhouse of the cell, which I think 01:04:55.679 --> 01:04:58.880 is a... I think they're much more than that. 01:04:59.260 --> 01:05:01.619 Absolutely. We're starting to see it. We're starting 01:05:01.619 --> 01:05:03.860 to measure it. We're starting to see that they're 01:05:03.860 --> 01:05:06.760 not just powerhouses, that they actually respond 01:05:06.760 --> 01:05:09.119 to information. They respond to magnetic fields. 01:05:09.199 --> 01:05:12.500 They respond to light. What I would love to see 01:05:12.500 --> 01:05:15.420 is if they can hold an information. That would 01:05:15.420 --> 01:05:18.500 be very powerful, is if they're not just like 01:05:18.500 --> 01:05:21.760 this filter, that they actually integrate that 01:05:21.760 --> 01:05:24.039 information and kind of have some sort of decision 01:05:24.039 --> 01:05:29.500 -making process. That would be wild. So I want 01:05:29.500 --> 01:05:33.099 to follow up on that. Like each cell or each 01:05:33.099 --> 01:05:36.420 mitochondria has like a brief summary or a brief 01:05:36.420 --> 01:05:43.920 memory based off of the input. Yeah, yeah. Like 01:05:43.920 --> 01:05:48.559 because I think maybe cells have a memory and 01:05:48.559 --> 01:05:50.400 whenever, you know, whenever they're activated, 01:05:51.179 --> 01:05:54.199 they're passing on through the axon or dendrites, 01:05:54.320 --> 01:05:57.159 whatever. information and they're just kind of 01:05:57.159 --> 01:05:59.940 each connection is building a story. So let me 01:05:59.940 --> 01:06:02.619 ask you if you don't mind. I'm very curious about 01:06:02.619 --> 01:06:04.619 this and this is kind of getting into the topic 01:06:04.619 --> 01:06:07.880 here. What is information? So you talked about 01:06:07.880 --> 01:06:11.739 information going into that axon. Where is it? 01:06:11.780 --> 01:06:15.400 What is it? Is it? the electricity, is it the 01:06:15.400 --> 01:06:17.960 pattern into it? And I think when we understand 01:06:17.960 --> 01:06:20.139 that from what we know in neuroscience, it's 01:06:20.139 --> 01:06:22.619 the pattern of firing. It's the pattern of electricity 01:06:22.619 --> 01:06:25.460 that gets through down to the axon and onto the 01:06:25.460 --> 01:06:28.699 next cell. And if we take that same analogy and 01:06:28.699 --> 01:06:31.639 kind of apply it to mitochondria with that electron 01:06:31.639 --> 01:06:34.840 flow in the electron transport chain, where's 01:06:34.840 --> 01:06:36.960 the pattern? Is that the pattern that we should 01:06:36.960 --> 01:06:39.570 be looking? I'm not sure if anyone's looked into 01:06:39.570 --> 01:06:41.550 this. And I think those are the types of things 01:06:41.550 --> 01:06:44.489 that people kind of should reframe in terms of 01:06:44.489 --> 01:06:46.269 dynamics. So we're not just measuring the number 01:06:46.269 --> 01:06:48.909 of ATP that may get made. We're not just measuring 01:06:48.909 --> 01:06:53.610 how many cytochrome oxidase or NADH gets made. 01:06:53.989 --> 01:06:56.130 I think we should be looking at the dynamics 01:06:56.130 --> 01:06:59.949 of these flows. And if once we know the dynamics, 01:07:00.030 --> 01:07:02.329 then we can actually see that over time. Is that 01:07:02.329 --> 01:07:05.940 information stagnant or is that information or 01:07:05.940 --> 01:07:10.559 dynamics changing over time. So okay, more efficient 01:07:10.559 --> 01:07:16.139 things going on with especially the mitochondrial 01:07:16.139 --> 01:07:19.219 matrix. All of these things that are feeding 01:07:19.219 --> 01:07:22.900 into the mitochondrial matrix, there's less bottlenecks. 01:07:24.420 --> 01:07:29.079 Is that what you're kind of saying? I'm saying 01:07:29.079 --> 01:07:31.000 is like, I want to know where that information 01:07:31.000 --> 01:07:33.559 is. So if we're saying that the mitos are able 01:07:33.559 --> 01:07:38.210 to They need to remember something. What is the 01:07:38.210 --> 01:07:40.070 information that they're remembering? Is it the 01:07:40.070 --> 01:07:42.289 electron flow? Is it the light that's being made? 01:07:42.809 --> 01:07:46.429 Is it the turnover of cytochrome C or cytochrome 01:07:46.429 --> 01:07:53.949 oxidase? What is that information? Confirm or 01:07:53.949 --> 01:07:56.969 correct this, whenever I was saying it passes 01:07:56.969 --> 01:08:01.530 on information, I meant subjective memory. Like 01:08:01.530 --> 01:08:05.360 last time I was in this situation, and then all 01:08:05.360 --> 01:08:07.760 of these cells will start firing and connecting. 01:08:09.800 --> 01:08:16.159 Is that what you're saying? Like that is in regard 01:08:16.159 --> 01:08:19.920 or that is created with what you explained? Yeah, 01:08:19.920 --> 01:08:22.859 I think so. That's kind of, I mean, this is a 01:08:22.859 --> 01:08:28.180 hypothesis. I think so. That would be wild. I 01:08:28.180 --> 01:08:32.520 think when we start to reframe of like what information 01:08:32.520 --> 01:08:35.439 is, then we can kind of see if it can be stored, 01:08:35.439 --> 01:08:38.859 right? And maybe in people with mitochondrial 01:08:38.859 --> 01:08:42.359 diseases or people who have dysfunctional mitochondria 01:08:42.359 --> 01:08:44.880 or even dysfunctional cells, those cells maybe 01:08:44.880 --> 01:08:48.300 don't seem to remember that information or process 01:08:48.300 --> 01:08:49.920 that information the right way. And that's what 01:08:49.920 --> 01:08:54.079 we're calling pathology, right? So that's kind 01:08:54.079 --> 01:08:57.739 of like a new way of looking at this. So that's 01:08:57.739 --> 01:09:01.819 upstream of... the subjective like valence or 01:09:01.819 --> 01:09:05.039 whatever that we attach to things. Correct. Absolutely. 01:09:05.239 --> 01:09:09.060 Way upstream. Yeah. Yeah. As maybe as far upstream 01:09:09.060 --> 01:09:11.880 as you can go. I think so. That's what I mean. 01:09:12.300 --> 01:09:15.199 Exactly. That's what I think modern medicine 01:09:15.199 --> 01:09:17.260 is like kind of downstream. We're looking at 01:09:18.159 --> 01:09:21.319 the genes, the molecules, the endpoint, where 01:09:21.319 --> 01:09:23.560 with this new idea of like cognitive framing 01:09:23.560 --> 01:09:26.159 of like memory and learning is a little bit more 01:09:26.159 --> 01:09:29.140 upstream. And I think way more upstream to that 01:09:29.140 --> 01:09:31.579 is looking at information. And we can look at 01:09:31.579 --> 01:09:33.760 that in terms of energetic information. Where 01:09:33.760 --> 01:09:36.880 is that information? What is it? Can it be stored? 01:09:37.300 --> 01:09:39.180 And then that kind of brings the next question. 01:09:40.039 --> 01:09:42.699 That information. can we learn from it? Can we 01:09:42.699 --> 01:09:45.159 make decisions from it? And then those decisions 01:09:45.159 --> 01:09:47.439 lead to us, okay, this is the proteins associated 01:09:47.439 --> 01:09:49.020 with them. So they kind of there's like a little 01:09:49.020 --> 01:09:52.380 story here. And I'd like modern medicine to move 01:09:52.380 --> 01:09:58.840 all the way up. Yeah. When the photon hits matter, 01:09:59.619 --> 01:10:03.380 energy to information. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. 01:10:04.819 --> 01:10:07.359 And we're starting to see this actually in computation. 01:10:07.939 --> 01:10:11.119 If we kind of shift gears a bit to computer science. 01:10:12.039 --> 01:10:14.939 And we start to build all these AI bots, and 01:10:14.939 --> 01:10:17.220 we're trying to make these computers more efficient. 01:10:17.640 --> 01:10:19.800 Our brains are pretty efficient at 12 watts of 01:10:19.800 --> 01:10:22.899 energy. We can hold as much as information as 01:10:22.899 --> 01:10:26.760 we possibly can. But now we're seeing like an 01:10:26.760 --> 01:10:29.180 optical biocomputation. We're seeing that the 01:10:29.180 --> 01:10:31.640 light itself can carry information. I mean, we 01:10:31.640 --> 01:10:34.239 know this already. Fiber optic cables that run 01:10:34.239 --> 01:10:37.380 across the ocean for telecommunication. That's 01:10:37.380 --> 01:10:40.890 information. And I'd like to see that be applied 01:10:40.890 --> 01:10:44.989 to our body, that there are potential biomaterials 01:10:44.989 --> 01:10:48.409 that can also carry the optical information and 01:10:48.409 --> 01:10:51.189 our cells use it in a meaningful way, integrate 01:10:51.189 --> 01:10:55.250 it and use it. It seems like it's very similar. 01:10:57.149 --> 01:11:00.970 What's next for you? What's the next thing that 01:11:00.970 --> 01:11:07.960 as far as how to find you and just I know you 01:11:07.960 --> 01:11:11.439 mentioned about the things more recently you're 01:11:11.439 --> 01:11:14.460 excited about, but how can people find your work 01:11:14.460 --> 01:11:18.279 and look out for these next things? Yeah, so 01:11:18.279 --> 01:11:20.720 we have a website where we kind of publish these 01:11:20.720 --> 01:11:24.880 things, but so the marooganlab .com, I also have 01:11:24.880 --> 01:11:28.119 an X account where I kind of try to be active 01:11:28.119 --> 01:11:31.479 on there. In terms of what we're interested in, 01:11:32.439 --> 01:11:37.140 the big picture is I want to know where these, 01:11:37.500 --> 01:11:40.920 or how much information our bodies can kind of 01:11:40.920 --> 01:11:44.180 carry, our cells can carry, and where that information 01:11:44.180 --> 01:11:49.619 is. So I look at biology as basically overlapping 01:11:49.619 --> 01:11:51.340 signals. You have electrical, you have genes, 01:11:51.539 --> 01:11:55.340 you have this whole stack. of signals. And when 01:11:55.340 --> 01:11:57.800 you collapse them altogether, that's communication 01:11:57.800 --> 01:12:01.859 to me. And we have the first layer of stack of 01:12:01.859 --> 01:12:03.760 the genes and molecules, we have that dynamics, 01:12:04.020 --> 01:12:06.319 we get electrical activity, we're missing the 01:12:06.319 --> 01:12:09.319 top half of like magnetism and light. And I want 01:12:09.319 --> 01:12:11.939 to see how that plays altogether. And I think 01:12:11.939 --> 01:12:15.060 once we have that, we have a really cool way 01:12:15.060 --> 01:12:17.600 of understanding our health. And then when shit 01:12:17.600 --> 01:12:20.670 hits the fan, what we call disease. So that's 01:12:20.670 --> 01:12:22.489 what really excites me. That's what really drives 01:12:22.489 --> 01:12:24.850 me right now. And I hope we can make some progress 01:12:24.850 --> 01:12:28.869 in that area. Well, this is the way forward. 01:12:29.210 --> 01:12:32.829 I'm glad you're one of the leaders in that. Because 01:12:32.829 --> 01:12:37.020 this isn't going to mess, I don't think. Yeah, 01:12:37.300 --> 01:12:39.739 yeah, I think there's a two things that need 01:12:39.739 --> 01:12:42.520 to happen is the cognitive framework from our 01:12:42.520 --> 01:12:44.739 colleagues who are able to kind of integrate 01:12:44.739 --> 01:12:46.500 what we're saying into their work because you 01:12:46.500 --> 01:12:47.979 know it's not going to happen with just one person 01:12:47.979 --> 01:12:50.960 right so the fact that Michael Hamlin has been 01:12:50.960 --> 01:12:54.359 talking about photobiomodulation for many years 01:12:54.359 --> 01:12:57.470 and now it's being accepted Biophotons being 01:12:57.470 --> 01:13:01.949 talked about for centuries now, now being accepted. 01:13:02.069 --> 01:13:04.170 I think we need, as a community, to do better 01:13:04.170 --> 01:13:06.710 on looking at the data and integrating it into 01:13:06.710 --> 01:13:09.529 biology. And then number two is tech. We need 01:13:09.529 --> 01:13:13.670 tech. If we're going to measure light from very 01:13:13.670 --> 01:13:15.970 different types of people, we need the tech that's 01:13:15.970 --> 01:13:19.029 sensitive enough to do that. So working with 01:13:19.029 --> 01:13:21.189 engineers that can kind of have that language. 01:13:22.920 --> 01:13:25.279 between engineering and biology and physics. 01:13:25.920 --> 01:13:28.260 That's the way to go. Yeah. Back to the Fritz 01:13:28.260 --> 01:13:31.300 Pop mentioned. Yeah. He wanted that, I think. 01:13:32.340 --> 01:13:34.680 Well, I appreciate you joining me, and I hope 01:13:34.680 --> 01:13:37.659 you have a wonderful day. Thanks, Ryan. I have 01:13:37.659 --> 01:13:38.920 a question for you, if you don't mind. Yeah, 01:13:38.939 --> 01:13:41.859 you guys go ahead. I typically like to ask this 01:13:41.859 --> 01:13:44.680 mainly to help connect and help me to understand 01:13:44.680 --> 01:13:49.659 how we can bring this work forward. What motivates 01:13:49.659 --> 01:13:53.500 you? What motivated you to think about these 01:13:53.500 --> 01:13:57.359 very different non -conventional topics? So I 01:13:57.359 --> 01:14:02.020 have many autoimmune problems, and the centralized 01:14:02.020 --> 01:14:04.939 medical paradigm wasn't doing anything for me. 01:14:05.159 --> 01:14:07.239 And I thought, well, there's got to be something 01:14:07.239 --> 01:14:11.760 else. It's missing something. And then in April 01:14:11.760 --> 01:14:16.909 2023, I listened to a podcast with Rick Rubin, 01:14:17.170 --> 01:14:19.670 Andrew Huberman, and Jack Cruz. And Jack Cruz 01:14:19.670 --> 01:14:22.949 has kind of changed my life with, you know, his 01:14:22.949 --> 01:14:27.289 quantum biology. And it's worked. It has absolutely 01:14:27.289 --> 01:14:30.289 worked. Have you like implemented this into your 01:14:30.289 --> 01:14:33.670 life? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And can I ask in 01:14:33.670 --> 01:14:36.710 what sense? Increasing sunlight, especially in 01:14:36.710 --> 01:14:40.010 the morning. I don't miss morning sunlight. And 01:14:40.010 --> 01:14:44.489 I get UV light. So I have vitiligo. And I used 01:14:44.489 --> 01:14:48.170 to have really pale skin and used to just wear 01:14:48.170 --> 01:14:50.430 sunscreen. I haven't had to wear sunscreen since 01:14:50.430 --> 01:14:53.850 that summer of 2023, and I'm outside all summer. 01:14:54.750 --> 01:14:58.510 I don't need it, though. And then I've implemented 01:14:58.510 --> 01:15:01.829 grounding, and grounding's removed two autoimmune 01:15:01.829 --> 01:15:05.510 problems, rheumatoid arthritis, which was kind 01:15:05.510 --> 01:15:08.829 of not very severe, but it was there, and restless 01:15:08.829 --> 01:15:12.510 leg syndrome, which is kind of just like, I think, 01:15:13.380 --> 01:15:16.260 downstream or sequelae of the type 1 diabetes, 01:15:16.420 --> 01:15:19.479 which is another autoimmune problem. But it cleared 01:15:19.479 --> 01:15:23.960 those out in no time. And the Hashimoto's. Hashimoto's 01:15:23.960 --> 01:15:28.140 is an autoimmune version of hypothyroidism. And 01:15:28.140 --> 01:15:31.319 of course, about 15 years ago, I was prescribed 01:15:31.319 --> 01:15:35.520 the botyroxine. And just over time, my doses 01:15:35.520 --> 01:15:38.979 increased because that's the only option. And 01:15:38.979 --> 01:15:42.000 I learned about tyrosine being the aromatic amino 01:15:42.000 --> 01:15:46.289 acid. and those benzene rings being UV light 01:15:46.289 --> 01:15:50.270 absorption, and with the pi electrons, I think 01:15:50.270 --> 01:15:54.909 with the increased sunlight, it rescued my thyroid. 01:15:55.289 --> 01:15:57.789 I no longer need those, and it's verified twice 01:15:57.789 --> 01:16:02.390 by different labs at different times. My thyroid 01:16:02.390 --> 01:16:05.550 levels are perfectly fine without the legal thyroxine, 01:16:05.590 --> 01:16:10.960 so I no longer need that. Interesting. Yeah, 01:16:11.079 --> 01:16:12.920 I mean, I asked this because, you know, a lot 01:16:12.920 --> 01:16:16.659 of people make these changes once it starts affecting 01:16:16.659 --> 01:16:19.300 people. And when it affects people, the doctors 01:16:19.300 --> 01:16:22.479 are willing to listen. So, you know, kind of 01:16:22.479 --> 01:16:24.960 getting your story out and sharing this and how 01:16:24.960 --> 01:16:27.479 quantum bio and physical principles can affect 01:16:27.479 --> 01:16:29.720 the human life. Like, people need to hear that. 01:16:29.979 --> 01:16:33.239 And so thank you for this platform. Yeah. And 01:16:33.239 --> 01:16:35.659 I'll just mention that a centralized doctor, 01:16:35.840 --> 01:16:41.750 my eye doctor, went in for an OCT scan and I 01:16:41.750 --> 01:16:44.250 was telling him about biophotons and he basically 01:16:44.250 --> 01:16:47.909 laughed me out of the room. Yep, all too familiar 01:16:47.909 --> 01:16:52.829 with that. All too familiar, yeah. But the data 01:16:52.829 --> 01:16:55.210 doesn't lie. If you do your science, the data 01:16:55.210 --> 01:16:58.770 is there and it is what it is. Centralized medicine 01:16:58.770 --> 01:17:05.590 is a powerful fortress. Yeah, and we just have 01:17:05.590 --> 01:17:08.100 to be consistent. Yeah, you're working to bring 01:17:08.100 --> 01:17:10.359 that down, and I appreciate your comment earlier 01:17:10.359 --> 01:17:14.220 about connecting the silos. I don't like silos. 01:17:15.319 --> 01:17:18.399 Yeah. I mean, it's in between things where you 01:17:18.399 --> 01:17:20.399 get information, literally. Yeah, the sharing 01:17:20.399 --> 01:17:23.260 of information. More information talk. Yeah. 01:17:26.659 --> 01:17:27.000 Thanks.