WEBVTT

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My guest today is Samantha Fox. Sam is a speech

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language pathologist with a master's from Kent

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State University and the founder of Beyond Speech

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Therapy Center, where they focus on personalized

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therapy and building meaningful relationships

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with clients. As a registered spelling to communicate

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practitioner with deep expertise in early intervention,

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Sam brings a unique perspective. to supporting

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non -speaking and minimal speaking individuals

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with autism, apraxia, and various speech sound

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disorders. Today's episode is all about speech

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language pathology and spelling to communicate

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interventions. In addition, Sam will expand on

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presuming competence and apraxia as an overlooked

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medical condition. By the end of this episode,

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we hope you learn more about speech language

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pathology and spelling to communicate. I'll just

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get right into it then. Cool. I'm good with that.

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So when did speech language pathologists kind

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of become more mainstream? In general. That's

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a great question. Not one that I have a direct

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answer for you. I mean, speech pathology has

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been around for quite some time. I have been

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practicing for about six years. And I got trained

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in spelling to communicate about coming up on

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four years ago. Okay. Yeah, I was just wondering

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because Like the Kenner kids, Kenner had one

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complete non -verbal and then there was two others.

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Like I think one had like selective mutism. It

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seemed like the other one was just like, would

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only speak around peers. So I was just wondering

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like what the history of, with these types of

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interventions back then. Just curiosity. But

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I would like to start with like. continuing on

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your history and like how and when did you learn

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about spelling to communicate? So I first learned

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of spelling to communicate back in undergrad.

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So this would have been around, let's say 2015

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-ish. I volunteered even prior to that. with

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a seven -year -old who is non -speaking, a practicing

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autistic. He's 18 now, so that's been quite some

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time, but I volunteered with him. At the time,

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he was using more traditional alternative communication,

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so a talker, and I volunteered with him. I fell

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in love with working with non -speaking autistics.

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He completely opened my world in that regard.

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And then I went on to graduate school, had to

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stop volunteering with him, just was pressed

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for time. After I graduated, I started working

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at a clinic and they knew to put the non -speaking

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autistics on my caseload because I loved working

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with them. And I was trained in Hanon at that

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time, which is a social developmental model to

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support autistics really based in connection

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and following their lead, building communication

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that way, and the social developmental model

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is still, I absolutely subscribe to that. However,

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I think now I have just found that there is more

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to be addressed than just the connection piece.

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I do recognize the importance of it, but I had

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been using that for years. with my clients and

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I was just seeing very minimal progress for most

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of them as it related to robust communication

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and so I stayed connected with this little boy.

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His name is Kaden. He's not little anymore, like

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I said, but I stayed connected with his mom.

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And because I had so many that were similar to

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him on my caseload, I kind of went to her and

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I was like, hey, listen, I have a ton that are

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really similar to Kaden. What? What's your suggestion?

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You know, how do I how do I help support them?

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And she was like, you know I really think you

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need to look into spelling to communicate and

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so they had gone to Virginia where the headquarters

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is for spelling and because there was nob time

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that could work with to Virginia. They did what

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They came back, didn't go back for another year.

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Mom just like really did the work at home with

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him. And so they had been on this journey for

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several years at this point. So I'm out of school,

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haven't worked with Kayden for a few years, just

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kind of like really getting into my groove as

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a speech therapist. She tells me I should look

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into spelling to communicate and... I went through

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quite a process with that, to be honest with

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you, because I Googled it, and if you Google

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it, you will see tons. It doesn't end. And I

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read through everything. I read through the things

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that were very supportive of spelling to communicate,

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and my god, I dissected all of the things that

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were just saying. that it is not legitimate,

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especially the ASHA statement from the National

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Speech and Hearing Association. Like that statement,

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I read many, many times and I thought, I don't

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know. I've only been a speech therapist for a

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little over two years. Who am I to go kind of

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like? against essentially what the national organization

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is stating. But at that point, Caden had spelled

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to me a quote that I will never forget at this

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point. And I watched him touch one letter at

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a time to spell, use your awesome, powerful heart

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to love the strange and fabulous people like

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me. And at this time, Caden... Gosh, how old

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was Kaden? He had to have been about 13, 14 years

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old. Completely non -speaking. Spells this out.

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And I said, okay, I'll take the training. And

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at that point, I wasn't even convinced, to be

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honest, for multiple fronts. Like, one, I kind

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of had the mentality that... Kayden was an exception.

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I knew he could do it. I watched him spell. I

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was watching in front of my eyes. I knew it was

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real. But I was thinking about all of my kids

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on my caseload, and I just was not convinced

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at the time that spelled communication was going

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to be as widely applicable as what I found it

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to be. But also, I just thought, let me at least

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take the course and... learn, get the knowledge,

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and then decide if I think that it's legitimate

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versus just going off of what I'm reading on

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the internet, which is really giving both sides,

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like let me make the determination myself whether

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I think it's something legitimate. So I, you

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know, I took the course, I took the leap of faith

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in that way, and everything that I learned in

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the course made way more sense than a lot of

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what I had learned in graduate school as it pertained

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to autistic individuals who were non -speaking,

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minimally speaking. And I ended up opening my

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own practice shortly after because there was

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nobody in the area that was doing this or very

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supportive of it. And it's just flipped everything

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on its head. And now we have about, last count

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was probably right about 75 spellers that we're

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working with currently in Northeast Ohio here,

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ages four and a half to, I think our oldest is

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around 35 right now. So it's a really broad range

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of ages. Okay. Wow, that's fascinating. Can you

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tell us a little bit about Beyond Speech Therapy

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Center? Yeah, I've been in love, too. So I had

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always thought that I wanted to open my own practice,

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but it's just overwhelming when you start to

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look at it. Honestly, I had a ton, a ton, a ton

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of encouragement from my mom on that front. Like

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I said, it was so niche because it didn't exist.

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And so initially, I started reaching out to places

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in Northeast Ohio that already existed that were

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specialized in working with autistic individuals.

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And I had said to them, like, hey, I'm getting

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trained in this. Do you have any interest? And

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everybody was like, no. And I was like, all right,

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well, I guess then I have to create it, is really

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what it came down to. It doesn't exist, so here

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we go. So the practice opened. early 2022. And

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very shortly after opening, it was just me by

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myself. I was certified at that point as a spelling

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to communicate practitioner, but I was doing

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kind of a combination of tradition, quote unquote,

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more traditional speech therapy, early intervention

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and spelling to communicate. A few weeks into

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opening the practice, I got a cold call from

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my now partner in crime over here, who is the

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occupational therapist, Emma Fiorita, she called

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me and she said, hey, do you need an occupational

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therapist? And I said, sure. And so she came

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on and she had, she was... with a lot of my spellers

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on occupational therapy goals. And so she had

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got to see them be able to be more, more of an

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active participant in therapy because when she's

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working on sensory things, you know, getting

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their feedback is so reliable. Hey, is this how

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you're feeling about this? Or is this helping?

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Is this hurting? Getting feedback made her sessions

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just a lot smoother. And so initially I was,

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you know, I was like, Hey, you should get trained

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as a, as an STC practitioner. And she was a little

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hesitant at first, but within a few months she

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was like, all right, I want to do this. And now

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she's a phenomenal practitioner. And since then

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it's just. It's grown. Emma's been with me from

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the beginning, but we have a few awesome speech

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therapists. We have two more spelling to communicate

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practitioners. We have a nice, nice little team

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of eight here. So it's, it's growing at a nice

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rate. And we do most, most of our caseload, I'd

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say probably upwards of 85 % of our caseload

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are minimally speaking, non -speaking autistics

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here. So with that eight being certified in spelling

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as for spellers, can you talk a little bit about

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what it takes to get that qualification or that

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training? Yeah. Yeah. So there, so we have four

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right now that are specifically spelling to communicate

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practitioners. And so it's, it's myself and Emma

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has a background in occupational therapy. We

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also have a recreation therapist who just got

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trained as an STC practitioner. And then we are

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fourth. Her background is actually in marketing,

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but her brother is a speller. And so she had

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interest and connection there. So she got trained

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as well. So as far as, you know, her mom's a

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saint. Oh, yes. Yes, of course. Yes, that's how

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we got connected. Yes, you know this. Isn't she

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the best? I love her. Side note, she is just

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one of the best parents ever. She would always

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come in with her pad of paper, diligently taking

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notes, like always just like, I want to know

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what I can do at home to support him. And it's

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just like as on top of it as you could wish that

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any of the parents could be in this process.

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So she is. I agree. Um, so You know, as far as

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like background, what's required. First of all,

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the training is not through beyond speech therapy

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center. I will say that for anyone listening

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because you'd be surprised the number of calls

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I get from out of state that are like, Hey, I'm

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interested in taking, taking the training. And

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I'm like, that's awesome. Let me refer you to

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I ask it's I dash a S C. Don't forget the dash

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is what they always say. It stands for international

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association for spelling as communication. They

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are headquartered in Virginia. They are the ones

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who do the training for a spelling to communicate.

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So these are not my guidelines or my training.

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This is theirs. And you should check them out

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anyways. They're incredible and they do awesome

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work. But they do not, as of right now, to my

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knowledge, there is not a... educational background

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requirement to go ahead and take the spelling

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to communicate training. Some have therapy backgrounds,

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some have different special education backgrounds,

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some are parents and siblings, and there's a

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nice variety in that regard. The training itself

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is about six months. Most of it is done virtually

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through seminars and you have to submit yourself

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work videos of working with spellers and they're

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always like adding and tweaking things. So really,

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if anybody is interested in that training, I

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would have to say like refer them to the to the

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website so that they can see. But it is about

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a six month. It's definitely a graduate level

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course. And it's it prepares you to work with

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any. Motor profile so you know aka any student

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that walks in you're going to feel equipped to

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support their their motor which I'm sure we're

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gonna Dive into more there, but that's what the

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that's what the course will do so it's It's not

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for like if you just want to work with one like

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if you're if you're listening you're just like

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hey I just want to work with my child spelling.

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You don't have to go become a practitioner. Being

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a practitioner, meaning going through that whole

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training, really the people who are going to

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do that are the people who want to have this

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as like a career. You're going to work with multiple

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spellers. They're going to come to you. You're

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going to walk them through the process. If you

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just want to be a communication partner is what

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we would call that a CRP. Communication and regulation

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partner is CRP. That is something that your practitioner

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will help you to do. So it's not something you

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have to pay for an additional training. Usually

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like let's say you have a child and you're wanting

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to get them started with it. You would call a

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practitioner in your area. you would have your

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child start seeing that practitioner and as part

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of the sessions your practitioner should be training

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you or coaching you how to work with your child

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on the the letter boards. So you don't need to

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go through like a six month training necessarily

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for that. That's something that should be part

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of those regular sessions and I know there's

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like a there's sometimes a hurdle with there

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is maybe a practitioner in my area or maybe cost

00:16:46.299 --> 00:16:51.340
is a hurdle in that regard. I cannot recommend

00:16:51.340 --> 00:16:55.700
enough getting with somebody who can provide

00:16:55.700 --> 00:16:58.740
you resources. IASC is a great resource for that

00:16:58.740 --> 00:17:02.500
to provide other resources in terms of how to

00:17:02.500 --> 00:17:05.359
connect you, how to get that funding. They're

00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:07.759
gonna be awesome for that. If you're in Northeast

00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:11.250
Ohio, you know, Reach out. I will help you. I

00:17:11.250 --> 00:17:14.130
help all of the families that that contact me

00:17:14.130 --> 00:17:17.089
for that out of state. I'm definitely less helpful

00:17:17.089 --> 00:17:21.450
to be honest. But working with a practitioner

00:17:21.450 --> 00:17:26.890
regularly is I cannot recommend that enough because

00:17:26.890 --> 00:17:29.609
there's so, so, so, so much to this process.

00:17:29.690 --> 00:17:31.950
You watch a video spelled communication and you're

00:17:31.950 --> 00:17:33.589
like, yep, I could just pop a letter board in

00:17:33.589 --> 00:17:36.089
front of somebody and they can communicate. Anyone

00:17:36.089 --> 00:17:39.150
who's been through it will tell you. I wish it

00:17:39.150 --> 00:17:41.630
was that easy, that would be awesome, but it's

00:17:41.630 --> 00:17:44.390
just not. And so that practitioner guidance keeps

00:17:44.390 --> 00:17:46.690
you from trying it and then being like, oh, my

00:17:46.690 --> 00:17:49.990
kid can't do it. They can. You just need the,

00:17:49.990 --> 00:17:52.250
you just need the correct support and you need

00:17:52.250 --> 00:17:54.349
somebody who's going to be able to guide you

00:17:54.349 --> 00:17:57.849
through the inevitable tricky moments because

00:17:57.849 --> 00:18:00.809
anybody who is non -speaking is going to have

00:18:00.809 --> 00:18:04.609
a tricky body at times because they have something

00:18:04.609 --> 00:18:07.509
called apraxia. So they don't have control over

00:18:07.509 --> 00:18:11.970
their bodies a lot. Yeah. It's almost like the

00:18:11.970 --> 00:18:14.950
people that, the autistic that don't have the

00:18:15.259 --> 00:18:18.940
that they are nonverbal, that is, that they have

00:18:18.940 --> 00:18:22.579
the apraxia problem. Yes, exactly. That's something

00:18:22.579 --> 00:18:26.339
that's underlooked or overlooked, I think, is

00:18:26.339 --> 00:18:32.819
apraxia. It is, yeah. It's really mistaken a

00:18:32.819 --> 00:18:36.700
lot, to be honest, as an intellectual, a cognitive,

00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:42.579
a behavioral difficulty where, you know, that's

00:18:42.579 --> 00:18:46.930
where my background came from is like, okay,

00:18:46.990 --> 00:18:51.170
well, I'm looking at it as they're not communicating.

00:18:51.509 --> 00:18:55.529
My job is to figure out why, right? And so when

00:18:55.529 --> 00:18:58.869
you start to dissect, why is somebody not communicating?

00:18:59.769 --> 00:19:03.230
A lot of times what people fall to is they're

00:19:03.230 --> 00:19:05.950
not communicating because they don't understand

00:19:05.950 --> 00:19:09.910
anything that's going on around them. If you

00:19:09.910 --> 00:19:12.869
really think about that, like to me, it just

00:19:12.869 --> 00:19:17.059
seems insane. Like, it seems insane to just think

00:19:17.059 --> 00:19:20.619
that somebody has been living in the world 5,

00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:26.039
10, 15, 20, 50 years and just doesn't understand

00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:28.819
anything going on around them. That's actually

00:19:28.819 --> 00:19:34.380
more unbelievable to me than the opposite. But...

00:19:34.539 --> 00:19:37.160
Unfortunately, because they don't have a way

00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:41.660
to prove what they know or to reliably communicate,

00:19:41.980 --> 00:19:44.579
that's often the default. It's okay, they're

00:19:44.579 --> 00:19:46.779
not communicating because they just don't understand.

00:19:48.059 --> 00:19:52.759
The other side of that is a lot of times people

00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:56.000
assume they're not communicating because they

00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:57.990
don't want to. And that's where you get into

00:19:57.990 --> 00:20:01.130
the behavioral side of things. Like if, you know,

00:20:01.170 --> 00:20:03.589
they're just basically refusing, like they have

00:20:03.589 --> 00:20:06.349
it in them. Like I know they can do it, but they're

00:20:06.349 --> 00:20:10.269
just not. And sometimes that can be really tricky

00:20:10.269 --> 00:20:13.170
because like they will communicate some things,

00:20:13.549 --> 00:20:17.150
but then in other instances it's inconsistent.

00:20:17.329 --> 00:20:19.609
And so people try to make sense of that. I under,

00:20:19.769 --> 00:20:23.690
I get that. But a lot of times it's, it's not

00:20:23.690 --> 00:20:26.630
that they're just refusing to communicate. You

00:20:26.630 --> 00:20:30.650
know, I mean, people have an innate want to connect

00:20:30.650 --> 00:20:33.529
with others and communicate in most instances.

00:20:33.769 --> 00:20:35.890
Sure. You have times of overwhelm. Like most

00:20:35.890 --> 00:20:37.630
people are like, okay, I don't want to talk to

00:20:37.630 --> 00:20:39.930
anybody. Like get out of my face. Sure. That

00:20:39.930 --> 00:20:43.230
exists. I'm not saying that never does, but to

00:20:43.230 --> 00:20:45.309
put, to place the assumption that somebody isn't

00:20:45.309 --> 00:20:47.849
communicating because they just want to be disconnected

00:20:47.849 --> 00:20:53.470
from everybody else in the world. is tough. So,

00:20:53.869 --> 00:20:55.690
you know, when I'm looking at that, it's like

00:20:55.690 --> 00:20:58.250
those are the two main beliefs though. It's that

00:20:58.250 --> 00:20:59.869
they don't understand and that's why they're

00:20:59.869 --> 00:21:02.269
not communicating or they just don't want to.

00:21:02.670 --> 00:21:05.289
And so those never really made sense to me even

00:21:05.289 --> 00:21:07.450
before I did the Spelling to Communicate training.

00:21:07.549 --> 00:21:15.609
What I really fell on was this belief that they're

00:21:15.609 --> 00:21:18.740
not communicating Not because they don't want

00:21:18.740 --> 00:21:20.740
to or not because they don't understand but because

00:21:20.740 --> 00:21:23.240
they're kind of quote -unquote in their own little

00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:26.660
world and it's like I say it now and it feels

00:21:26.660 --> 00:21:29.759
Silly coming out of my mouth, but there was no

00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:32.980
other You know real explanation at that point

00:21:32.980 --> 00:21:35.779
and I knew I didn't believe the other two and

00:21:35.779 --> 00:21:37.519
so I was like, okay They're just in their own

00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:39.900
little world Which is why I kind of subscribed

00:21:39.900 --> 00:21:42.759
at that point to the belief like if I can just

00:21:42.759 --> 00:21:45.829
get in there If I can enter their world and make

00:21:45.829 --> 00:21:48.089
them feel comfortable, like they'll want to communicate.

00:21:48.150 --> 00:21:50.690
They're going to come out of their shell. I can

00:21:50.690 --> 00:21:54.609
kind of help them to connect in that way and

00:21:54.609 --> 00:21:59.789
therefore help them to communicate. But that's

00:21:59.789 --> 00:22:03.369
not accurate either. That's not the whole picture

00:22:03.369 --> 00:22:10.430
because many spellers Actually, I'm going to

00:22:10.430 --> 00:22:13.609
speak. I know this is broad, but I will say it.

00:22:13.630 --> 00:22:16.390
I believe all spellers. I believe all non -speakers.

00:22:17.009 --> 00:22:21.250
They do understand. They do want to communicate.

00:22:21.829 --> 00:22:27.450
They're not in their own little worlds, but they

00:22:27.450 --> 00:22:30.349
don't have the control over their body to be

00:22:30.349 --> 00:22:35.190
able to show you any of that. And so they can

00:22:35.190 --> 00:22:36.990
want all of those things. It doesn't matter.

00:22:37.150 --> 00:22:39.710
They can be in our world, right in our face,

00:22:39.849 --> 00:22:43.490
wanting to communicate, craving connection. But

00:22:43.490 --> 00:22:46.269
if they don't have a way to tell us that, what

00:22:46.269 --> 00:22:50.009
do we have to do? We have to assume. But unfortunately,

00:22:50.250 --> 00:22:54.150
the assumption is almost always those things

00:22:54.150 --> 00:22:59.670
that I'm telling you. So when we start to presume

00:22:59.670 --> 00:23:04.519
competence, Meaning, you know, it's like a buzzword

00:23:04.519 --> 00:23:07.059
right now. I presume confidence is great. But

00:23:07.059 --> 00:23:09.759
like, what does that actually mean? I was gonna

00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:14.359
ask you, so. Right? Okay. It's important, because

00:23:14.359 --> 00:23:16.319
it is. It is like, like I said, I see it all

00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:18.680
the play. I'm like, are people really like understanding

00:23:18.680 --> 00:23:23.700
though what that means? It doesn't mean that

00:23:23.700 --> 00:23:28.160
we believe all non -speaking individuals, minimally

00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:31.329
speaking, I use that as an umbrella term, by

00:23:31.329 --> 00:23:33.430
the way, that's how it non speaking. It doesn't

00:23:33.430 --> 00:23:35.609
mean that there's absolutely no speech. A lot

00:23:35.609 --> 00:23:38.710
of our spellers do have a decent amount of speech.

00:23:38.750 --> 00:23:40.990
Some of like the blue whale is swimming in the

00:23:40.990 --> 00:23:42.950
ocean, but then you ask them like, Hey, what

00:23:42.950 --> 00:23:44.750
did you think about that movie? And they can't

00:23:44.750 --> 00:23:48.109
answer that. Okay. That still falls under the

00:23:48.109 --> 00:23:50.930
umbrella of non speaking. So I'll probably use

00:23:50.930 --> 00:23:56.309
that for simplicity. But when you have somebody

00:23:56.309 --> 00:24:01.150
who can't communicate with their speech fully.

00:24:03.089 --> 00:24:10.049
We need to presume that they understand everything

00:24:10.049 --> 00:24:15.190
that a peer that is speaking their age would

00:24:15.190 --> 00:24:18.250
understand. So if I have a 13 year old non -speaking

00:24:18.250 --> 00:24:21.490
individual, I assume that they understand every

00:24:21.490 --> 00:24:25.089
single thing that a 13 year old would understand.

00:24:25.339 --> 00:24:30.420
if they were speaking, a I believe that personally,

00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:35.039
more than than their neuro just because I've

00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:40.440
been bl thus far working with non a bare minimum,

00:24:41.019 --> 00:24:47.000
we need to understand. Okay, but w in the corner

00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:52.400
and jumping at the top of their lung They surely

00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:54.440
don't understand what's going on in the room

00:24:54.440 --> 00:24:57.880
and what's being said. Yes, they do. I do believe

00:24:57.880 --> 00:25:00.140
that they do understand and that they are aware

00:25:00.140 --> 00:25:05.019
of what's going on. So talking to them at the

00:25:05.019 --> 00:25:07.559
same age, you would talk to a 13 year old. That's

00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:10.359
important. Presuming that they understand everything

00:25:10.359 --> 00:25:14.839
that said, even when it looks like they are in

00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:18.559
their own little world, quote unquote. OK, that's

00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:25.269
really important. providing them an education

00:25:25.269 --> 00:25:28.430
that's in line with what you would provide to

00:25:28.430 --> 00:25:32.230
a 13 year old. We're not working on colors. I'm

00:25:32.230 --> 00:25:35.309
not working on letter recognition. They know,

00:25:35.509 --> 00:25:38.630
and I can and will get into that. Why can't they

00:25:38.630 --> 00:25:40.369
show it then? Well, if they know it, why can't

00:25:40.369 --> 00:25:43.269
they prove it? That's a whole nother can of worms.

00:25:44.869 --> 00:25:48.190
But presuming competence means you're gonna treat

00:25:48.190 --> 00:25:52.559
somebody the exact same way you would treat somebody

00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:55.839
else their age if they were speaking. That's

00:25:55.839 --> 00:25:59.339
honestly, if you follow that base, that is presuming

00:25:59.339 --> 00:26:03.259
competence. You don't have to believe that all

00:26:03.259 --> 00:26:06.500
non -speaking individuals are locked in geniuses.

00:26:06.500 --> 00:26:10.900
This is like a big thing in this world too. Listen,

00:26:10.900 --> 00:26:13.619
do I think that they understand way, way, way,

00:26:13.619 --> 00:26:15.740
way, way, way, way, way, way, way more than they

00:26:15.740 --> 00:26:19.470
can express? Yes, I do. However, you don't even

00:26:19.470 --> 00:26:22.890
have to believe that. All you have to believe

00:26:22.890 --> 00:26:26.309
to presume competence is that they are capable

00:26:26.309 --> 00:26:31.309
of learning. And anyone who will sit and say,

00:26:31.650 --> 00:26:34.150
I don't believe so -and -so is capable of learning,

00:26:34.750 --> 00:26:37.779
shouldn't be a teacher. shouldn't be somebody

00:26:37.779 --> 00:26:43.960
sup have to believe that they of what their body

00:26:43.960 --> 00:26:49.380
is show start to address things f perspective,

00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:53.759
which is wha I'm throwing out social de I'm throwing

00:26:53.759 --> 00:27:06.680
out the beha not getting our kids, our in their

00:27:06.680 --> 00:27:10.299
20s and still can't express basic wants and needs,

00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:14.519
let alone desires and opinions and preferences

00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:16.539
for their own life. They don't have autonomy.

00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:20.079
The models we've been using, I'm not saying they're

00:27:20.079 --> 00:27:24.279
not appropriate for anyone, but there is more

00:27:24.279 --> 00:27:28.740
to the picture. And so when we start approaching

00:27:28.740 --> 00:27:34.289
from a motor deficit perspective, meaning I believe

00:27:34.289 --> 00:27:36.630
you're in there. I believe your body just does,

00:27:36.670 --> 00:27:39.289
it has a mind of its own. I believe your mind

00:27:39.289 --> 00:27:42.069
and body are basically two different entities.

00:27:42.410 --> 00:27:45.029
Like, you know, what's going on up here. You

00:27:45.029 --> 00:27:47.630
know what you want to say, but when you try to

00:27:47.630 --> 00:27:49.930
move your mouth, your mouth doesn't say what

00:27:49.930 --> 00:27:52.190
you want it to say. And when you try to move

00:27:52.190 --> 00:27:55.789
your body, your body doesn't do what you want

00:27:55.789 --> 00:28:00.579
it to do. And so If I've been using a social

00:28:00.579 --> 00:28:02.680
developmental model, which is what a lot of speech

00:28:02.680 --> 00:28:04.599
therapists will, if your kids in speech therapy,

00:28:04.940 --> 00:28:07.339
that's probably what they're using, is some sort

00:28:07.339 --> 00:28:09.799
of social developmental model. That's the theory.

00:28:10.740 --> 00:28:13.720
If they're not, then maybe they're an ABA. Okay,

00:28:13.900 --> 00:28:17.200
they're targeting it from a behavioral approach.

00:28:17.460 --> 00:28:20.279
Is that what I would do? No. Does it mean it's

00:28:20.279 --> 00:28:25.259
wrong? No. My only challenge to that is If your

00:28:25.259 --> 00:28:27.440
kid has been in quote unquote traditional speech

00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:29.880
therapy their entire life and they've been in

00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:32.440
ABA their entire life and they're still having

00:28:32.440 --> 00:28:36.559
difficulty communicating, it might be worth looking

00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:41.279
at. another perspective, like let's target the

00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:44.059
difficulty, I shouldn't say problem, but the

00:28:44.059 --> 00:28:47.640
difficulties from a different perspective. And

00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:49.960
that's what I love about spelling to communicate

00:28:49.960 --> 00:28:52.519
and why I always say it's not quote unquote just

00:28:52.519 --> 00:28:54.980
communication. It's not just about the letter

00:28:54.980 --> 00:28:59.759
board. It's a completely different shift in the

00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:02.759
way that we're approaching the difficulties that

00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:06.119
they're having with communication. And I have

00:29:06.119 --> 00:29:10.279
found, that approach and targeting from that

00:29:10.279 --> 00:29:17.039
perspective is so much more regulating for the

00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:20.279
individuals. I have seen so much more growth

00:29:20.279 --> 00:29:22.779
than I had with the traditional speech therapy.

00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:25.559
And it's not, you know, I really wanna make it

00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:27.750
clear that it's not me saying that. I believe

00:29:27.750 --> 00:29:30.089
traditional speech therapy is bad. I don't, I'm

00:29:30.089 --> 00:29:32.650
a speech therapist. I use those techniques too.

00:29:32.950 --> 00:29:35.769
I just think there's so much more that the field

00:29:35.769 --> 00:29:41.990
is missing here. And we have to, I do say it

00:29:41.990 --> 00:29:45.170
with some sense of urgency, we have to start

00:29:45.170 --> 00:29:48.970
looking at this. We have at this point thousands

00:29:48.970 --> 00:29:53.109
of non -speakers who are telling us, my body

00:29:53.109 --> 00:29:55.490
not doing what I want it to do. And still people

00:29:55.490 --> 00:29:58.779
are like, Oh, no, that's not real. Like, yes,

00:29:58.920 --> 00:30:01.980
it is. It is real. And they're telling us like

00:30:01.980 --> 00:30:04.559
they're telling us their lived experience. And

00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:07.220
just even if it's hard for us to wrap our brains

00:30:07.220 --> 00:30:09.240
around, it doesn't mean that that's not their

00:30:09.240 --> 00:30:13.059
lived experience, right? So I can't even remember.

00:30:13.099 --> 00:30:15.319
I just keep going off on tangents on you, Ryan,

00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:22.059
but humans hate humans hate when we can't make

00:30:22.059 --> 00:30:25.059
sense of things. It's really provides us a lot

00:30:25.059 --> 00:30:28.240
of conflict. We don't like that. So we'll just

00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:31.259
push it into this box of our own understanding

00:30:31.259 --> 00:30:37.400
and say, that must be it. Yes. Yes. Me too. Just

00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:41.759
continuous, continuous learning is like, I just.

00:30:43.119 --> 00:30:45.500
the backbone of what we should all be doing,

00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:48.339
right? Like there's so much that we do not know.

00:30:48.660 --> 00:30:51.539
And I'm the first to say that even though I'm

00:30:51.539 --> 00:30:55.359
a huge S2C proponent, like they know, like the

00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:58.039
people who do the training, like they will say

00:30:58.039 --> 00:31:00.240
to you, like, yeah, we're still learning, we're

00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:02.980
still researching, but we need to support at

00:31:02.980 --> 00:31:07.619
the best level that we can. And that's by presuming

00:31:07.619 --> 00:31:11.789
competence because otherwise, These guys are

00:31:11.789 --> 00:31:16.869
stuck learning the same thing for 21 years. They're

00:31:16.869 --> 00:31:19.589
in school till they're 21, a lot of them. And

00:31:19.589 --> 00:31:22.990
they still have these goals to identify common

00:31:22.990 --> 00:31:27.309
objects. It's like, what? I would also be going

00:31:27.309 --> 00:31:30.269
crazy. I would be throwing stuff, right? There

00:31:30.269 --> 00:31:34.769
comes a point where if you're a non -speaker,

00:31:35.170 --> 00:31:40.000
unfortunately, you're you've experienced trauma

00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:42.779
because you haven't been able to express yourself.

00:31:43.079 --> 00:31:46.380
And then those guys can't get therapy because

00:31:46.380 --> 00:31:50.440
a lot of therapy is based in talk, communication.

00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:54.559
And so they're just like struggling with this

00:31:54.559 --> 00:31:57.240
on their own for years and years and years and

00:31:57.240 --> 00:32:00.200
years. And yes, there are sensory motor differences

00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:03.660
that make regulation challenging, but there's

00:32:03.660 --> 00:32:07.730
also all of this, you know, psychological side

00:32:07.730 --> 00:32:10.730
of thing that can't be ignored. It's like you've

00:32:10.730 --> 00:32:13.910
been essentially trapped in your body. So do

00:32:13.910 --> 00:32:18.029
I think they hurt people with intent? No, I don't.

00:32:18.150 --> 00:32:20.650
Broadly, I really don't. But do I think that

00:32:20.650 --> 00:32:26.940
they just do not know how to Like their body

00:32:26.940 --> 00:32:30.720
and their nervous system is so traumatized in

00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:33.440
a lot of cases that I think they just don't even,

00:32:33.539 --> 00:32:35.940
they don't know how to do that and they can't

00:32:35.940 --> 00:32:39.119
ask for help with it. And so it just creates

00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:41.799
this cycle of like, yeah, we have a lot of guys

00:32:41.799 --> 00:32:46.259
that can be physical. Like I said, I never think

00:32:46.259 --> 00:32:49.059
that it's intentional for them to be like what

00:32:49.059 --> 00:32:53.349
people would describe as. aggressive, um, or

00:32:53.349 --> 00:32:56.049
hurting people with intent. I never, ever, ever

00:32:56.049 --> 00:32:59.789
think that's the case. Um, but it's just, there's

00:32:59.789 --> 00:33:02.230
a lot to dissect. So, you know, me going into

00:33:02.230 --> 00:33:06.049
that is just another way of saying there's so

00:33:06.049 --> 00:33:08.210
much that we don't know. There's so, so much

00:33:08.210 --> 00:33:11.349
under the surface here that we're just starting

00:33:11.349 --> 00:33:14.529
to really understand these things at a deeper

00:33:14.529 --> 00:33:17.910
level. And so I am, you know, I just choose to

00:33:17.910 --> 00:33:22.440
be open -minded, like, hey, does it make sense

00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:26.400
to me? Maybe. Even if it doesn't make sense to

00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:29.920
me, do I accept it? Yeah, I do, because it's

00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:33.420
coming from the people who are experiencing it.

00:33:34.779 --> 00:33:39.900
So, yeah, so much we don't know. Yeah. I have

00:33:39.900 --> 00:33:42.619
two comments based off of what we've talked about

00:33:42.619 --> 00:33:45.980
so far, but I'm just sitting here imagining that

00:33:45.980 --> 00:33:50.980
an ABA therapist almost needs training and spelling

00:33:50.980 --> 00:33:54.579
that way they can convey. There's like a back

00:33:54.579 --> 00:33:59.500
and forth convenience. Yes. But, you know, I

00:33:59.500 --> 00:34:02.700
have a hard time saying that people need this

00:34:02.700 --> 00:34:06.059
or, you know, we should require this. But it

00:34:06.059 --> 00:34:09.699
seems like it's like so obvious, like they need

00:34:09.699 --> 00:34:12.820
to be able to communicate back and forth because

00:34:12.820 --> 00:34:16.309
ABA is very questionable. you know, and I've

00:34:16.309 --> 00:34:23.690
talked or tux and you know, they' everything

00:34:23.690 --> 00:34:32.349
is behavior. S with the science of A. B off,

00:34:32.530 --> 00:34:37.489
but like where I hav statement. Okay, is that

00:34:37.489 --> 00:34:45.389
t that all behavior is inten buzzword phrase

00:34:45.389 --> 00:34:49.170
right now quote like shirts all behavior is communication

00:34:49.170 --> 00:34:51.130
and people wear that like it's well -meaning

00:34:51.130 --> 00:34:54.570
I get what you are saying all behavior is communication

00:34:54.570 --> 00:35:01.130
but not all behavior not all actions are intentional

00:35:01.130 --> 00:35:04.590
and if somebody doesn't have a way of communicating

00:35:04.590 --> 00:35:08.650
they can't tell you whether something was intentional

00:35:08.650 --> 00:35:12.750
or not and so like to give you a real -life example

00:35:13.719 --> 00:35:16.519
the kid I was talking, he's an adult now, but

00:35:16.519 --> 00:35:19.659
Kaden, who I was talking about earlier, his body,

00:35:19.699 --> 00:35:22.579
so he calls his body Gus, because that's how

00:35:22.579 --> 00:35:25.780
disconnected he feels, like Kaden is who he is,

00:35:26.059 --> 00:35:29.940
Gus is what his body does. And so a lot of times,

00:35:29.980 --> 00:35:32.239
Kaden's been swelling for like 10 years, okay,

00:35:32.239 --> 00:35:35.000
so he's very, very practiced. A lot of times

00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:36.719
when I put down the letter board, even to this

00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:39.639
day I see him every week, I put down the letter

00:35:39.639 --> 00:35:43.519
board and Gus, will hit the letter board out

00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:48.019
of my hand so hard, like what people would look

00:35:48.019 --> 00:35:52.039
at and say, that was aggressive, okay? And then

00:35:52.039 --> 00:35:55.179
Kaden will spell a lot of times some rendition,

00:35:55.480 --> 00:35:58.719
not verbatim, but. I'm sorry, I did not mean

00:35:58.719 --> 00:36:01.260
to do that. I don't know why Gus is hitting.

00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:06.139
It's an impulse for his body to do sometimes

00:36:06.139 --> 00:36:09.719
because he's overstimulated or dysregulated,

00:36:09.900 --> 00:36:13.099
right? But it's not coming from a place of, I'm

00:36:13.099 --> 00:36:15.000
trying to smack that out of your hand and hurt

00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:18.440
you. And he has just, every time he has the opportunity

00:36:18.440 --> 00:36:23.480
to like clarify, he does. But let's say he didn't

00:36:23.480 --> 00:36:28.510
have communication. then what happens? We assign

00:36:28.510 --> 00:36:32.070
intentionality to that and we are like, whoa,

00:36:32.449 --> 00:36:36.510
that behavior communicated to me that you don't

00:36:36.510 --> 00:36:38.889
want that letter board there or that you don't

00:36:38.889 --> 00:36:43.389
want to communicate or even worse, like you're

00:36:43.389 --> 00:36:46.650
not being compliant with what I'm asking you

00:36:46.650 --> 00:36:49.760
to do. Like you're just being difficult. Right?

00:36:49.900 --> 00:36:52.199
Like those are some of the things that people

00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:55.079
are going to say if they see that action in isolation.

00:36:56.780 --> 00:37:01.300
It's, it's not as black and white as that sometimes

00:37:01.300 --> 00:37:04.699
might things be intentional. Sure. But unless

00:37:04.699 --> 00:37:07.639
they have a reliable way to communicate, how

00:37:07.639 --> 00:37:11.139
can we, how can we do it? How can we say, we

00:37:11.139 --> 00:37:14.570
just guess. It's such a conundrum, really, because

00:37:14.570 --> 00:37:17.190
then you're like, oh, well, if you have a non

00:37:17.190 --> 00:37:20.170
-speaking or minimally speaking individual, they

00:37:20.170 --> 00:37:22.269
can't really use speech to communicate. So what

00:37:22.269 --> 00:37:26.989
do we rely on? Body language. But guess what?

00:37:27.650 --> 00:37:31.429
Body language isn't always reliable with individuals

00:37:31.429 --> 00:37:34.289
with apraxia. So we can't just see what their

00:37:34.289 --> 00:37:37.170
body's doing and be like, oh, yeah, that's definitely

00:37:37.170 --> 00:37:40.309
what they did or didn't want. Sometimes it might

00:37:40.309 --> 00:37:43.269
be. But sometimes it might not be and that's

00:37:43.269 --> 00:37:45.250
where you get into this like really difficult

00:37:45.250 --> 00:37:49.070
back and forth and why you need That why they

00:37:49.070 --> 00:37:51.690
need the communication to tell you like hey,

00:37:51.710 --> 00:37:53.449
yeah I hit that out of my god of your hand because

00:37:53.449 --> 00:37:55.909
I'm mad right now I'm not telling you you can't

00:37:55.909 --> 00:37:59.010
feel that way go ahead But but tell me that that's

00:37:59.010 --> 00:38:01.650
what you intended then for the record. He's never

00:38:01.650 --> 00:38:06.349
said that um, but He could He could say anything

00:38:06.349 --> 00:38:08.650
he wanted. He has 26 letters. He could say whatever

00:38:08.650 --> 00:38:14.969
he wanted The other comment or thought ahead

00:38:14.969 --> 00:38:18.889
is, are there any data with self -injurious behaviors

00:38:18.889 --> 00:38:22.110
before and after spelling? That's such a good

00:38:22.110 --> 00:38:25.349
question. I think there are a couple of different

00:38:25.349 --> 00:38:27.670
people. I've seen some threads of people talking

00:38:27.670 --> 00:38:31.750
about this. I will tell you anecdotally, we have

00:38:31.750 --> 00:38:37.469
had many families tell us that the dysregulation

00:38:37.469 --> 00:38:41.369
slash physical behaviors that were going on with

00:38:41.369 --> 00:38:45.650
their spellers significantly decreased once they

00:38:45.650 --> 00:38:49.829
started spelling. I think in part that's because

00:38:49.829 --> 00:38:52.469
of the presumption of competence. Like, oh my

00:38:52.469 --> 00:38:54.929
gosh, you've lived 20 years with everybody thinking

00:38:54.929 --> 00:38:56.809
that you didn't understand anything and then

00:38:56.809 --> 00:38:59.170
you have somebody who says, hey, I know you're

00:38:59.170 --> 00:39:02.110
in there. Whoa, okay, like think about the weight

00:39:02.110 --> 00:39:05.409
that that just takes off by itself because some

00:39:05.409 --> 00:39:08.630
of these people What's interesting about it is

00:39:08.630 --> 00:39:14.650
that they'll say that the dysregulation decreased

00:39:14.650 --> 00:39:18.650
even before the speller got to the point where

00:39:18.650 --> 00:39:22.289
they could communicate their thoughts. Because

00:39:22.289 --> 00:39:26.630
that's a long process. That sometimes is years

00:39:26.630 --> 00:39:30.340
and years. just presuming competence, just telling

00:39:30.340 --> 00:39:32.099
them like, hey, I know you're in there and starting

00:39:32.099 --> 00:39:35.679
to work from a different route. Like I'm talking

00:39:35.679 --> 00:39:39.219
about with that motor stuff that just on its

00:39:39.219 --> 00:39:42.380
own, not even communication has a lot of times

00:39:42.380 --> 00:39:44.559
decreased the dysregulation, which is really

00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:49.760
interesting to me. That makes sense. That's incredible.

00:39:50.460 --> 00:39:53.199
Because a lot of times the self -injurious behavior

00:39:53.199 --> 00:39:55.760
is the head. So, you know, they just hitting

00:39:55.760 --> 00:40:01.340
the head and Some people might have biting. Yes.

00:40:02.840 --> 00:40:16.079
It's all so wild. So can we just start with or

00:40:16.079 --> 00:40:18.420
transition into like going through the process

00:40:18.420 --> 00:40:23.380
of how to even begin the spelling to communicate?

00:40:24.179 --> 00:40:27.679
Yeah. For for beginners. I know I know you touched

00:40:27.679 --> 00:40:31.199
a little bit about it earlier, but just walk

00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:34.800
through like how Somebody might begin and then

00:40:34.800 --> 00:40:38.260
just like the intervention the processes Yeah,

00:40:38.260 --> 00:40:42.099
absolutely. So I do like before I get right into

00:40:42.099 --> 00:40:45.619
that I do want to kind of Touch a little bit

00:40:45.619 --> 00:40:47.820
on a praxia just because I think it's really

00:40:47.820 --> 00:40:50.739
important for anybody who's listening I know

00:40:50.739 --> 00:40:53.059
I'd like throwing the term around a few times

00:40:53.670 --> 00:40:58.269
today. But I kind of want to give some reassurance

00:40:58.269 --> 00:41:01.949
to people who might be listening because it's

00:41:01.949 --> 00:41:05.170
so rare that I have somebody come in with an

00:41:05.170 --> 00:41:09.269
actual apraxia diagnosis. Okay, so I don't want

00:41:09.269 --> 00:41:11.130
people to listen to this be like, oh, well, that's

00:41:11.130 --> 00:41:15.949
not going to be applicable to my child. 95 %

00:41:15.949 --> 00:41:19.170
upwards of 95 % of the time somebody comes in

00:41:19.170 --> 00:41:24.710
with their child is not able to Fully communicate

00:41:24.710 --> 00:41:27.309
with speech. Okay, that could be that they have

00:41:27.309 --> 00:41:29.230
no speech at all That could be that they have

00:41:29.230 --> 00:41:33.750
some sounds that could be that they have 50 words

00:41:33.750 --> 00:41:37.070
that they can use for items that they seem to

00:41:37.070 --> 00:41:40.389
like or need That could be that they have full

00:41:40.389 --> 00:41:42.730
sentences. Like I said, they can they can script

00:41:42.730 --> 00:41:48.210
entire TV shows or sing songs but their Conversational

00:41:48.210 --> 00:41:51.510
speech that's that's where we're really like

00:41:51.510 --> 00:41:56.010
red flag for red flag for apraxia is if they

00:41:56.010 --> 00:41:59.170
can maybe get some sounds out maybe some words

00:41:59.170 --> 00:42:03.510
but if you ask them about something that is a

00:42:03.510 --> 00:42:07.050
non -routine question you read them a story and

00:42:07.050 --> 00:42:08.849
they're like what did you think of that you watch

00:42:08.849 --> 00:42:12.469
a movie hey did you like that movie they might

00:42:12.469 --> 00:42:14.550
be able to give you a yes or no but okay what

00:42:14.550 --> 00:42:16.769
did you like about that can they answer that

00:42:18.210 --> 00:42:20.710
Some of those things like I get the crossover

00:42:20.710 --> 00:42:22.510
because some people would look at those and be

00:42:22.510 --> 00:42:24.210
like, oh, well that if they can't answer that

00:42:24.210 --> 00:42:27.050
maybe that is a cognitive a cognitive thing,

00:42:27.309 --> 00:42:31.090
which yes, I am not saying that that doesn't

00:42:31.090 --> 00:42:35.469
exist. But if they've been in traditional therapy

00:42:35.469 --> 00:42:38.010
and it doesn't really seem to be connecting the

00:42:38.010 --> 00:42:41.150
dots in the way that you had hoped over years,

00:42:41.670 --> 00:42:44.210
that's when I would start to think like. Hmm,

00:42:44.329 --> 00:42:47.530
I wonder if apraxia might be affecting them.

00:42:47.650 --> 00:42:51.070
And apraxia, very simplified, is a disconnect

00:42:51.070 --> 00:42:55.110
between the brain and the body. So what all spellers

00:42:55.110 --> 00:42:57.550
have in common, most of them are autistic, not

00:42:57.550 --> 00:42:59.429
all of them. There are individuals with Down

00:42:59.429 --> 00:43:03.730
syndrome, unidentified intellectual disability

00:43:03.730 --> 00:43:07.170
is one that I've seen, a lot of syndromes. These

00:43:07.170 --> 00:43:10.070
individuals, at their core, what they all have

00:43:10.070 --> 00:43:15.320
in common is that they have global Their brain

00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:18.360
is not communicating well with their body, including

00:43:18.360 --> 00:43:24.039
their mouth. So all of that to say, I just want

00:43:24.039 --> 00:43:28.719
to make sure that people aren't, you know, thrown

00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:31.139
off by the term apraxia. Most of my families

00:43:31.139 --> 00:43:34.019
have never even heard it, who come to me. So

00:43:34.019 --> 00:43:36.800
like that's not bizarre if you're sitting and

00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:39.659
listening to that. And if you're wondering like,

00:43:39.860 --> 00:43:42.809
well, how do I know? If you go see a practitioner,

00:43:42.889 --> 00:43:44.829
if you go see somebody who is trained in spelling

00:43:44.829 --> 00:43:49.369
to communicate, they should be able to, during

00:43:49.369 --> 00:43:52.610
that first visit, they're gonna look at the markers

00:43:52.610 --> 00:43:56.909
of apraxia. And there are going to be certain

00:43:56.909 --> 00:44:00.849
things that are going to show those apraxic tendencies,

00:44:00.889 --> 00:44:03.250
and they're going to be able to show you that.

00:44:04.030 --> 00:44:07.170
So that's my little, I guess, disclaimer before

00:44:07.170 --> 00:44:15.170
I get into the actual process. So Sorry, that

00:44:15.170 --> 00:44:18.030
was necessary. Oh good. Okay. I'm glad I didn't

00:44:18.030 --> 00:44:20.590
you know, it's like it's it's one of those things

00:44:20.590 --> 00:44:22.530
like it's just teasing out because I know so

00:44:22.530 --> 00:44:26.110
many parents just feel Lost. I mean, and this

00:44:26.110 --> 00:44:27.590
is what they've described to me, right? They're

00:44:27.590 --> 00:44:29.789
like we've tried everything like that is something

00:44:29.789 --> 00:44:32.050
I hear I can't tell you how many families have

00:44:32.050 --> 00:44:34.429
told you we've tried everything It's it's nothing.

00:44:34.730 --> 00:44:38.030
Nothing is really working. Okay, we've tried

00:44:38.030 --> 00:44:41.489
all that those other things like let's try, give

00:44:41.489 --> 00:44:43.809
it another chance. You got to stay consistent,

00:44:44.130 --> 00:44:50.829
but I'm not here to tell you what to do or what

00:44:50.829 --> 00:44:53.610
to try. Really, I just want to make sure people

00:44:53.610 --> 00:44:58.570
know that this exists and that people are seeing

00:44:58.570 --> 00:45:02.019
real... Differences not only in communication,

00:45:02.079 --> 00:45:04.260
but their regulation their day -to -day activities

00:45:04.260 --> 00:45:07.320
like this is really that it is changing people's

00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:09.860
lives and I and I want people to know about it,

00:45:09.860 --> 00:45:15.260
so um if you Connect with a practitioner there.

00:45:15.260 --> 00:45:17.519
It's growing. There are a decent amount of practice

00:45:17.519 --> 00:45:18.960
I don't know how many there are right now in

00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:20.739
the United States, but there's a decent amount

00:45:20.739 --> 00:45:26.460
um You can go on that that I ask so I dash ASC

00:45:26.460 --> 00:45:29.469
org they have a map that will show you where

00:45:29.469 --> 00:45:32.250
practitioners are, so you can easily look and

00:45:32.250 --> 00:45:38.309
see where one is near you. From there, I'll speak

00:45:38.309 --> 00:45:40.449
from my experience. People might do things a

00:45:40.449 --> 00:45:43.670
little bit differently, but I think for most

00:45:43.670 --> 00:45:46.070
practitioners, they see their spellers once a

00:45:46.070 --> 00:45:48.429
week for about 60 minutes seems to be pretty

00:45:48.429 --> 00:45:52.849
standard. People always ask when they call, well,

00:45:52.889 --> 00:45:57.400
how long? How long is my child going to need

00:45:57.400 --> 00:46:03.019
to be in this therapy? Difficult to say, just

00:46:03.019 --> 00:46:05.199
like if you asked about speech, how long are

00:46:05.199 --> 00:46:06.840
they going to need speech therapy? That's also

00:46:06.840 --> 00:46:09.079
going to be a challenging question to ask, right?

00:46:09.639 --> 00:46:12.739
But what I can tell you is starting from the

00:46:12.739 --> 00:46:16.860
beginning to getting some open -ended communication.

00:46:17.579 --> 00:46:19.599
So a lot of people will just say it's open. Getting

00:46:19.599 --> 00:46:22.849
to open is what you'll hear. What that means

00:46:22.849 --> 00:46:27.489
is that the individual is able to openly express

00:46:27.489 --> 00:46:31.190
their thoughts, their feelings, their opinions,

00:46:31.590 --> 00:46:35.030
their preferences, okay? We don't start by asking.

00:46:35.250 --> 00:46:37.170
We can't just put a letter, again, I wish it

00:46:37.170 --> 00:46:38.949
was this easy. We can't just put a letter board

00:46:38.949 --> 00:46:41.409
down in front of them and start going into, well,

00:46:41.489 --> 00:46:43.380
what did you think about the movie? That would

00:46:43.380 --> 00:46:46.960
be awesome, but they haven't yet developed the

00:46:46.960 --> 00:46:50.199
motor skills to be able to get their eye on the

00:46:50.199 --> 00:46:52.659
target and their hand to follow through and hit

00:46:52.659 --> 00:46:56.219
the target that they want. We have to explicitly

00:46:56.219 --> 00:46:59.159
teach them. Like, what does that sound like?

00:46:59.659 --> 00:47:02.400
Move your eyes to the left, reach your arm forward,

00:47:02.619 --> 00:47:06.320
bend your elbow. Like we're really coaching their

00:47:06.320 --> 00:47:10.159
motor system to be able to accurately choose

00:47:10.159 --> 00:47:13.030
letters. We work under the assumption that they

00:47:13.030 --> 00:47:15.010
know all of their letters and they know how to

00:47:15.010 --> 00:47:18.449
spell the moment they walk in the door. We're

00:47:18.449 --> 00:47:21.250
not teaching them how to spell. We already know

00:47:21.250 --> 00:47:23.929
that they've been exposed, in most cases, they've

00:47:23.929 --> 00:47:27.050
been exposed to literacy since they were two

00:47:27.050 --> 00:47:29.769
years old and watching Sesame Street and listening

00:47:29.769 --> 00:47:33.610
to songs on the radio and looking at books and

00:47:33.610 --> 00:47:37.550
signs and they pick this up. Is it a little bit

00:47:37.550 --> 00:47:41.340
of a mystery to me? Sure in some cases it is

00:47:41.340 --> 00:47:44.000
but when you really think about what master observers

00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:46.280
most people will say this about their non -speaking

00:47:46.280 --> 00:47:48.820
Child they'll say oh, yeah, they don't miss a

00:47:48.820 --> 00:47:52.219
thing like that. They're looking right like they

00:47:52.219 --> 00:47:55.280
they are observing the environment around them

00:47:55.280 --> 00:47:59.280
and A lot of times they don't have the motor

00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:02.500
skills to play with toys in the way that their

00:48:02.500 --> 00:48:05.519
same -aged peers are playing with toys So what's

00:48:05.519 --> 00:48:08.460
always around if I can't play with toys? I can

00:48:08.460 --> 00:48:12.679
look around right now and see 15 things with

00:48:12.679 --> 00:48:17.400
text on it around me. Text is always around,

00:48:17.460 --> 00:48:20.780
and these guys are taking it in. So you start

00:48:20.780 --> 00:48:22.400
to pair that with, like, yeah, I've listened

00:48:22.400 --> 00:48:26.480
to the Phonics Cocoa Melon song four bazillion

00:48:26.480 --> 00:48:29.099
times, and I have text around me. They start

00:48:29.099 --> 00:48:31.460
putting this stuff together. They're taking in

00:48:31.460 --> 00:48:36.380
their environment. So. Anyways, another tangent

00:48:36.380 --> 00:48:42.860
there for you. But they come in and we presume

00:48:42.860 --> 00:48:44.960
that they already know how to spell. So if they

00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:47.340
already know how to spell, why can't I just put

00:48:47.340 --> 00:48:48.699
this in front of them and then they can spell

00:48:48.699 --> 00:48:53.980
their thoughts? Because of apraxia. So they cannot,

00:48:54.699 --> 00:48:57.579
like apraxia also affects the eyes. We call it

00:48:57.579 --> 00:49:01.340
ocular motor apraxia. You and I, probably take

00:49:01.340 --> 00:49:04.179
this for granted. I can read. I can scan things

00:49:04.179 --> 00:49:09.960
very easily. They can also read. A lot of times

00:49:09.960 --> 00:49:13.119
that's misjudged because they can't use their

00:49:13.119 --> 00:49:16.300
speech to read aloud, but we can read in our

00:49:16.300 --> 00:49:20.760
heads, right? So they can also read in their

00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:25.900
mind, but we're looking at scanning all of these

00:49:25.900 --> 00:49:29.840
letters, not only scanning them, but then being

00:49:29.840 --> 00:49:32.559
able to jump your eyes between letters, because

00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:35.440
if I want to spell flamingo, my eyes need to

00:49:35.440 --> 00:49:38.599
jump from the F to the L to the A to the M, okay?

00:49:38.619 --> 00:49:41.039
So I need a lot of intentional motor control

00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:45.960
of my eyes to be able to do that. But also, I

00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:49.800
need to sustain my visual gaze, lock in on the

00:49:49.800 --> 00:49:53.440
letter that I want, and then I have to move my

00:49:53.440 --> 00:49:58.260
arm to select. the letter that my eyes are fixated

00:49:58.260 --> 00:50:01.679
on. Hand -eye coordination. So if you've ever

00:50:01.679 --> 00:50:05.219
noticed that it looks like an individual who's

00:50:05.219 --> 00:50:07.880
non -speaking can't quote unquote pay attention,

00:50:08.659 --> 00:50:10.400
their eyes are just like their heads moving,

00:50:10.519 --> 00:50:12.400
their eyes are everywhere. I see this all the

00:50:12.400 --> 00:50:15.320
time. A lot of times that's just because they

00:50:15.320 --> 00:50:18.500
do not have the eye control, the motor of the

00:50:18.500 --> 00:50:21.500
eyes to get their eyes to stop and sustain the

00:50:21.500 --> 00:50:24.440
gaze. And then that hand -eye coordination is

00:50:24.440 --> 00:50:28.760
another level to it. So they come in and we actually

00:50:28.760 --> 00:50:33.199
start with what we call the three letter boards.

00:50:33.500 --> 00:50:37.579
So the alphabet is split into threes. Why do

00:50:37.579 --> 00:50:40.820
we do this? Because of what we just said. This

00:50:40.820 --> 00:50:44.320
now is not 26 letters to scan. This is eight

00:50:44.320 --> 00:50:46.860
to nine letters to scan, which is going to be

00:50:46.860 --> 00:50:50.860
easier on the eyes. Also larger targets. So when

00:50:50.860 --> 00:50:53.239
I'm working on hand -eye coordination, a larger

00:50:53.239 --> 00:50:57.360
target is going to be easier. So we start with

00:50:57.360 --> 00:50:59.500
this, and I think it's important too to tell

00:50:59.500 --> 00:51:03.420
people, you do not start with open -ended questions.

00:51:04.139 --> 00:51:06.380
I think that's a really big misconception where

00:51:06.380 --> 00:51:09.570
it's like, well, you're showing them like, where

00:51:09.570 --> 00:51:13.010
to go, you know, it's not real. And it's like,

00:51:13.130 --> 00:51:16.829
okay, well, if I review a lesson about flamingos,

00:51:17.369 --> 00:51:19.789
and then I say, what are we talking about today?

00:51:19.929 --> 00:51:22.110
And I hold this in front of you, and then my

00:51:22.110 --> 00:51:24.269
hand goes like this, and I show you right to

00:51:24.269 --> 00:51:28.170
the F. People are like, oh my gosh, you're showing

00:51:28.170 --> 00:51:32.570
them where to go. Yes, I have to teach them what

00:51:32.570 --> 00:51:35.570
they need to do with their eyes. so that they

00:51:35.570 --> 00:51:37.670
can lock in on that target and then I have to

00:51:37.670 --> 00:51:39.710
teach them what they need to do with their arm

00:51:39.710 --> 00:51:41.750
to make it work in conjunction with their eyes.

00:51:42.909 --> 00:51:45.329
That's why I'm not asking them what's your favorite

00:51:45.329 --> 00:51:48.010
animal and then leading them to spell flamingo.

00:51:48.130 --> 00:51:50.050
I don't know what their favorite animal is. I

00:51:50.050 --> 00:51:53.400
can't. prompt them to an answer that I don't

00:51:53.400 --> 00:51:56.239
know. And so we use lessons in that way. We're

00:51:56.239 --> 00:51:58.639
like, we'll read to them a very age appropriate

00:51:58.639 --> 00:52:02.199
lesson about why are flamingos pink. It has to

00:52:02.199 --> 00:52:05.280
do with their diet. We use bigger words. We spell

00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:07.719
them out for them. And then we ask them questions

00:52:07.719 --> 00:52:11.079
based on what we read. Not because we're testing

00:52:11.079 --> 00:52:14.800
their comprehension, because we assume that they

00:52:14.800 --> 00:52:16.880
understood everything that we just read to them,

00:52:16.960 --> 00:52:21.190
even when They're pacing around the room, jumping

00:52:21.190 --> 00:52:25.070
up and down, screaming, all of that. And that

00:52:25.070 --> 00:52:27.110
looks bizarre to families. They're like, wait

00:52:27.110 --> 00:52:28.989
a second, what do you mean? How are they listening?

00:52:30.030 --> 00:52:32.769
You will be shocked what they are picking up

00:52:32.769 --> 00:52:34.690
when they look like they are not paying attention

00:52:34.690 --> 00:52:36.969
at all. My favorite is when families spell things

00:52:36.969 --> 00:52:41.150
to me. They're trying to be discreet, so they're

00:52:41.150 --> 00:52:42.969
spelling things to me. And I'm like, you know

00:52:42.969 --> 00:52:45.329
that they're listening to that and get it right

00:52:45.329 --> 00:52:50.659
now. We start with this, and sometimes we do

00:52:50.659 --> 00:52:53.179
start with a really strong prompt. Sometimes

00:52:53.179 --> 00:52:55.579
I literally am pointing right to the letter,

00:52:55.619 --> 00:52:58.619
but it's because it's a known answer. It's something

00:52:58.619 --> 00:53:00.699
that I just read. There's only one answer that

00:53:00.699 --> 00:53:03.840
they could possibly be going to, and I need to

00:53:03.840 --> 00:53:07.059
be able to show their body how to accurately

00:53:07.059 --> 00:53:11.039
hit those letters so that eventually, when we

00:53:11.039 --> 00:53:13.280
fade our prompting, just like any other therapy,

00:53:14.059 --> 00:53:16.719
There's never hand over hand in spelling to communicate

00:53:16.719 --> 00:53:18.659
for the record. Our hands are not on the speller,

00:53:18.940 --> 00:53:21.500
but sometimes we do provide us a strong visual

00:53:21.500 --> 00:53:25.179
prompt, because once we've moved to this and

00:53:25.179 --> 00:53:28.460
we fade back our visual, meaning I'm no longer

00:53:28.460 --> 00:53:30.719
going like this across the board, because now

00:53:30.719 --> 00:53:33.599
we're starting to spell like, hey, if you had

00:53:33.599 --> 00:53:37.800
a pet flamingo, what would you name it? You can

00:53:37.800 --> 00:53:39.820
start with any letter on that board. I don't

00:53:39.820 --> 00:53:43.239
know where you're going for that, okay? And so,

00:53:43.550 --> 00:53:46.710
We get to the first time we get to open communication

00:53:46.710 --> 00:53:50.670
or open questions is on this 26 stencil. There

00:53:50.670 --> 00:53:52.750
are adapted boards. There are different versions

00:53:52.750 --> 00:53:54.869
that you'll see the practitioner that you work

00:53:54.869 --> 00:53:58.829
with will guide you. Once for these stencils,

00:53:58.829 --> 00:54:01.949
we use a pencil. The speller uses a pencil to

00:54:01.949 --> 00:54:05.710
poke through. It provides a good amount of input

00:54:05.710 --> 00:54:10.809
because the whole arm is moving in spelling to

00:54:10.809 --> 00:54:14.920
communicate. So The way we describe this is it's

00:54:14.920 --> 00:54:19.539
taking the fine motor out of communication. Everything

00:54:19.539 --> 00:54:22.019
we use to communicate with our mouth is fine

00:54:22.019 --> 00:54:24.519
motor speech, very, very fine motor and intricate

00:54:24.519 --> 00:54:28.719
movements of the articulators. But then also

00:54:28.719 --> 00:54:32.840
thinking about sign language. This is a ton of

00:54:32.840 --> 00:54:36.800
fine motor to be able to sign. We're writing

00:54:36.800 --> 00:54:42.000
a ton of fine motor. And so a lot of times people

00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:44.800
will Say like oh, well, what about these other

00:54:44.800 --> 00:54:49.559
avenues? It's like Those are good avenues, but

00:54:49.559 --> 00:54:52.280
they still require a lot of fine motor control

00:54:52.280 --> 00:54:56.380
and they don't involve explicitly teaching the

00:54:56.380 --> 00:54:59.099
motor because like so many families have tried

00:54:59.099 --> 00:55:00.900
sign language I mean, I think that's something

00:55:00.900 --> 00:55:05.139
just or Even like a regular talker, you know

00:55:05.139 --> 00:55:07.480
where it's like hit the picture and like communicate

00:55:07.869 --> 00:55:11.130
Those are great. The issue isn't with those methods

00:55:11.130 --> 00:55:16.389
themselves. The problem is that we're not teaching

00:55:16.389 --> 00:55:20.190
the motor of what you need to move your eyes

00:55:20.190 --> 00:55:22.730
down. You need to reach your arm forward because

00:55:22.730 --> 00:55:25.110
we're just assuming when they hit the wrong letter

00:55:25.110 --> 00:55:28.869
or the wrong icon that they didn't understand.

00:55:29.230 --> 00:55:31.769
So then we just keep teaching them the same thing

00:55:31.769 --> 00:55:33.969
over and over. We're like, no, more means that

00:55:33.969 --> 00:55:37.369
you're gonna get more. You hit go, you know,

00:55:37.449 --> 00:55:39.849
or whatever that is. It's like, that's not gonna

00:55:39.849 --> 00:55:41.849
get us anywhere, because we're not teaching their

00:55:41.849 --> 00:55:45.010
body what their body needs to do. Here are the

00:55:45.010 --> 00:55:47.429
physical movements that your body needs to do

00:55:47.429 --> 00:55:51.230
to be able to accurately poke a letter. And so

00:55:51.230 --> 00:55:54.989
with time, they get even more accurate on this.

00:55:55.050 --> 00:55:59.800
And then we move. to a laminate board. This is

00:55:59.800 --> 00:56:02.059
in like most of the YouTube videos if you watch.

00:56:02.199 --> 00:56:04.480
This is what a lot of people will see. This,

00:56:05.000 --> 00:56:08.260
no pencil anymore. We're starting to use the

00:56:08.260 --> 00:56:11.119
finger. We don't need that input. The arm movement

00:56:11.119 --> 00:56:13.659
is solid by that point. We're moving the whole

00:56:13.659 --> 00:56:17.840
arm in a gross motor way, which is helpful for

00:56:17.840 --> 00:56:22.739
most. And from here, a lot of, at this point,

00:56:22.760 --> 00:56:26.130
they're gonna be able to tell you, If they're

00:56:26.130 --> 00:56:28.289
open on this laminate board, you can ask them,

00:56:28.289 --> 00:56:32.090
hey, what are your goals? For most, most individuals,

00:56:32.409 --> 00:56:34.690
they want to be as independent as possible. So

00:56:34.690 --> 00:56:37.670
a lot of them, they choose at that point that

00:56:37.670 --> 00:56:40.170
they want to move to the keyboard. Does everybody

00:56:40.170 --> 00:56:42.730
make it to the keyboard? No, but a lot of people

00:56:42.730 --> 00:56:45.909
like, listen, if they can openly express themselves

00:56:45.909 --> 00:56:49.730
on a laminate board or even a stencil, you know?

00:56:49.760 --> 00:56:52.079
If you can say everything that you want to say

00:56:52.079 --> 00:56:54.699
with these, a lot of people are happy with that.

00:56:55.579 --> 00:57:00.539
And it's motor -wise much easier for a lot of

00:57:00.539 --> 00:57:03.699
individuals to use those boards. So it's not

00:57:03.699 --> 00:57:06.460
like a standard that you move up to the keyboard.

00:57:06.940 --> 00:57:09.820
But I will say, especially in my own experience,

00:57:10.519 --> 00:57:12.760
a lot of the spellers do want to move to the

00:57:12.760 --> 00:57:15.539
keyboard. And then subsequently, they want to

00:57:15.539 --> 00:57:18.059
move to a keyboard propped up on a stand. So

00:57:18.059 --> 00:57:21.559
somebody no longer holding the keyboard or the

00:57:21.559 --> 00:57:27.400
letter board for them is often a goal, too. That

00:57:27.400 --> 00:57:30.219
makes sense, because it's just like any other

00:57:30.219 --> 00:57:34.909
goal. We set goals and we... We have these like

00:57:34.909 --> 00:57:37.949
little benchmarks and it's so different for them

00:57:37.949 --> 00:57:40.909
because they see that as like a a bit, a greater

00:57:40.909 --> 00:57:44.690
accomplishment, I'm assuming. Yeah, it's huge.

00:57:44.829 --> 00:57:48.409
I mean, it's so challenging, especially the keyboard

00:57:48.409 --> 00:57:52.969
up on a stand. It is a ton of regulation control

00:57:52.969 --> 00:57:56.289
for the speller, but I have several that are

00:57:56.289 --> 00:58:00.150
doing it right now, and they're very successful.

00:58:01.630 --> 00:58:04.650
When you're able to create your own goals, that's

00:58:04.650 --> 00:58:08.590
another level of... autonomy. Um, you know, that's,

00:58:08.590 --> 00:58:10.989
that's motivated. That's intrinsic motivation.

00:58:11.150 --> 00:58:15.469
Um, and so, uh, they, they, they really never

00:58:15.469 --> 00:58:18.389
cease to amaze me in terms of like what they,

00:58:18.389 --> 00:58:21.150
um, what, what their goals are and what they,

00:58:21.150 --> 00:58:25.489
they envision, um, for themselves and, uh, having,

00:58:25.650 --> 00:58:27.789
having control of their life at that point is,

00:58:27.789 --> 00:58:30.230
is really what it's, what it's about a lot is

00:58:30.230 --> 00:58:32.550
like, I don't, you know, is it, is it bad to

00:58:32.550 --> 00:58:35.690
have to rely on somebody? No, we all rely on

00:58:35.690 --> 00:58:40.030
other people. We all rely on other people. But

00:58:40.030 --> 00:58:44.809
I get it. You know, I get wanting to be as independent

00:58:44.809 --> 00:58:48.809
as possible with it with it as well. And it is

00:58:48.809 --> 00:58:53.610
with practice, anything, any motor plan, anything

00:58:53.610 --> 00:58:56.110
we practice over and over and over and over and

00:58:56.110 --> 00:58:59.969
over and over again, what happens? It gets easier.

00:59:00.530 --> 00:59:04.090
It even gets automatic for us. Driving a car

00:59:04.090 --> 00:59:06.170
is a really good example of something like you

00:59:06.170 --> 00:59:09.110
have to think a ton about when you first start.

00:59:09.550 --> 00:59:13.750
But once you do it, now you can multitask and

00:59:13.750 --> 00:59:17.329
drive the car, you know? And so that's what happens

00:59:17.329 --> 00:59:19.789
with that motor movement. I practice this, I

00:59:19.789 --> 00:59:22.210
practice my intentionality with my eye movements,

00:59:22.250 --> 00:59:24.869
and I practice intentionality with my arm working

00:59:24.869 --> 00:59:28.070
with my eyes. And what happens over time? It

00:59:28.070 --> 00:59:30.769
becomes automatic. And when it becomes automatic,

00:59:31.519 --> 00:59:35.760
Whoa, now I'm free. I don't have to think so

00:59:35.760 --> 00:59:37.360
hard about every little thing that I'm doing.

00:59:37.440 --> 00:59:40.460
I don't have to think about turning on the blinker

00:59:40.460 --> 00:59:43.980
and the steering wheel and pushing the gas. It's

00:59:43.980 --> 00:59:47.260
automatic for me now. So when that becomes automatic,

00:59:47.960 --> 00:59:52.619
now I can start to really access my thoughts

00:59:52.619 --> 00:59:55.420
and get my thoughts out, just like talking to

00:59:55.420 --> 00:59:57.739
somebody in a car. If you are trying to have

00:59:57.739 --> 01:00:00.920
a conversation with them, the first time you

01:00:00.920 --> 01:00:03.280
tried to drive a car, you would have crashed

01:00:03.280 --> 01:00:05.360
the car. Or you wouldn't have been able to hold

01:00:05.360 --> 01:00:07.500
a conversation with the person in the passenger

01:00:07.500 --> 01:00:09.980
seat, right? Not because you didn't understand

01:00:09.980 --> 01:00:12.400
anything that they were saying to you. You're

01:00:12.400 --> 01:00:15.139
so focused on your motor. It's a new motor plan,

01:00:15.159 --> 01:00:17.880
right? And so that's what happens with our spellers.

01:00:18.079 --> 01:00:20.179
And that's why if you plop down a letter board

01:00:20.179 --> 01:00:23.579
in front of them, whoa, I haven't practiced driving

01:00:23.579 --> 01:00:26.119
the car and having a conversation at the same

01:00:26.119 --> 01:00:29.079
time yet. It doesn't work like that. So you have

01:00:29.079 --> 01:00:31.440
to build up that motor plan. You got to practice

01:00:31.440 --> 01:00:35.280
driving the car or poking the letters before

01:00:35.280 --> 01:00:38.539
you're really like your mind is free enough and

01:00:38.539 --> 01:00:40.559
not focused so much on the motor that you can

01:00:40.559 --> 01:00:45.039
do that. Yeah, as you explained that I was that's

01:00:45.039 --> 01:00:46.760
exactly what I was thinking about is like an

01:00:46.760 --> 01:00:49.800
athlete practicing exactly constantly practicing.

01:00:49.860 --> 01:00:54.019
Yep. And it's the motor control. And I was also

01:00:54.019 --> 01:00:59.500
thinking like even Lower level or more so -called

01:00:59.500 --> 01:01:03.260
high functioning autistic have Problems with

01:01:03.260 --> 01:01:05.579
speech and language. So those fine motor skills.

01:01:05.579 --> 01:01:08.639
Yes So if we just even thinking about this more

01:01:08.639 --> 01:01:11.539
severe profound, so it's going to be much worse

01:01:11.539 --> 01:01:14.480
Yes, and even the hand -eye coordination. Yes.

01:01:14.500 --> 01:01:17.760
All autistic have pretty bad hand -eye coordination.

01:01:17.880 --> 01:01:21.800
Yeah, so if you just think about The severe to

01:01:21.800 --> 01:01:24.960
profound it's just going to be just so much worse

01:01:25.320 --> 01:01:27.780
And then you just have to practice that in. Yep.

01:01:27.960 --> 01:01:29.800
You just have to practice it. That's it. That's

01:01:29.800 --> 01:01:31.639
what I say. As long as you think they're capable

01:01:31.639 --> 01:01:34.559
of learning, right? That's really the foundation.

01:01:34.860 --> 01:01:41.079
And I think one thing that I had somehow skipped

01:01:41.079 --> 01:01:42.900
over, because I probably was talking about something

01:01:42.900 --> 01:01:47.000
else knowing me earlier, is I was starting to

01:01:47.000 --> 01:01:50.300
say... that for somebody to get to open, I wanted

01:01:50.300 --> 01:01:52.940
to give that timeline for somebody because it's

01:01:52.940 --> 01:01:56.000
not immediate and I don't think I got to it.

01:01:56.219 --> 01:02:00.940
So I wanted to say for most spellers, it takes

01:02:00.940 --> 01:02:05.599
about a year to 18 months of consistent practice

01:02:05.599 --> 01:02:09.239
to consistent meaning one time a week with a

01:02:09.239 --> 01:02:12.059
practitioner and multiple times a week at home.

01:02:13.159 --> 01:02:14.980
Doesn't have to be long at home, I always say

01:02:14.980 --> 01:02:17.349
like, but you know, If you can get in four to

01:02:17.349 --> 01:02:21.070
five times a week, 10 to 15 minutes, that's awesome.

01:02:21.730 --> 01:02:24.070
But that consistency, like you're talking about

01:02:24.070 --> 01:02:26.670
sports and that practice, it's so, so important.

01:02:26.989 --> 01:02:29.750
And that's about how long it takes for most.

01:02:30.429 --> 01:02:32.650
Now I will tell you, I've had spellers that it's

01:02:32.650 --> 01:02:35.070
taken less than 12 months, and I've had spellers

01:02:35.070 --> 01:02:38.139
that have taken... three years of consistent

01:02:38.139 --> 01:02:41.719
practice. It depends on the level of apraxia

01:02:41.719 --> 01:02:43.519
that we're dealing with there. And I'm sorry,

01:02:43.539 --> 01:02:45.960
I'm going to move rooms, because I know the therapist

01:02:45.960 --> 01:02:49.579
needs this room next. So I'm just going to take

01:02:49.579 --> 01:02:54.039
you on a little tour of my office, I guess, here,

01:02:54.420 --> 01:02:58.400
Ryan. Her propeller that's coming in really likes

01:02:58.400 --> 01:03:02.239
this room specifically. So I want to get out

01:03:02.239 --> 01:03:08.619
of her way. The way you described the different

01:03:08.619 --> 01:03:13.300
outcomes is not to be expected because we all

01:03:13.300 --> 01:03:16.579
have different levels of inabilities. So it makes

01:03:16.579 --> 01:03:22.079
sense that getting to those points will be different

01:03:22.079 --> 01:03:25.480
as well. And a lot more people need more practice.

01:03:25.860 --> 01:03:29.639
Practice, the intensity and frequency varies

01:03:29.639 --> 01:03:42.139
for anything we do. Yes. Um, what, what do you

01:03:42.139 --> 01:03:45.340
find? I have some questions about what are the

01:03:45.340 --> 01:03:50.159
barriers for, for spellers. I guess maybe less

01:03:50.159 --> 01:03:54.019
specific or more specific question is what's

01:03:54.019 --> 01:03:57.960
the insurance coverage like for this? Uh, zero

01:03:57.960 --> 01:04:03.159
is what it is. Um, Yeah, so Spelling to Communicate

01:04:03.159 --> 01:04:07.159
is not an insurance covered service. There are

01:04:07.159 --> 01:04:13.320
some fantastic resources out there. IASC provides

01:04:13.320 --> 01:04:18.139
a speller startup fund to cover some initial

01:04:18.139 --> 01:04:21.909
sessions, get people the letter boards. which

01:04:21.909 --> 01:04:29.590
is an initial invest We have like I, you kno

01:04:29.590 --> 01:04:35.469
nonprofit sector of my b we could fundraise and

01:04:35.469 --> 01:04:44.750
pr to um spellers who need on your, depending

01:04:44.750 --> 01:04:51.639
on yo my background in speech and then Emma's

01:04:51.639 --> 01:04:54.039
background in occupational therapy gives us a

01:04:54.039 --> 01:04:56.420
little bit more flexibility because we can bill

01:04:56.420 --> 01:05:00.539
our services as speech and occupational therapy.

01:05:02.639 --> 01:05:09.800
But we're very creative and we try to be comprehensive

01:05:09.800 --> 01:05:13.159
in ways that we can get this covered for people.

01:05:13.659 --> 01:05:16.500
It's very important to me that it's accessible.

01:05:17.820 --> 01:05:20.300
but I know that it just kind of depends on like

01:05:20.300 --> 01:05:22.360
where you are in the country, who the practitioner

01:05:22.360 --> 01:05:25.920
is, and there's like a lot of variables, a lot

01:05:25.920 --> 01:05:28.599
of variables there. So certainly the financial

01:05:28.599 --> 01:05:36.420
aspect can be a barrier, but a lot, I think a

01:05:36.420 --> 01:05:40.019
lot of practitioners do have sliding scales as

01:05:40.019 --> 01:05:43.460
well, or they're going to be able to point you

01:05:43.460 --> 01:05:49.039
in the direction of getting some financial coverage.

01:05:50.500 --> 01:05:52.659
I know there's a lot of people working on getting

01:05:52.659 --> 01:05:57.760
it covered through insurance. So it's just a

01:05:57.760 --> 01:06:02.519
battle right now. So I think financially definitely

01:06:02.519 --> 01:06:07.199
a barrier. The other main, the main thing that

01:06:07.199 --> 01:06:13.380
comes to mind is just dysregulation to the point

01:06:13.380 --> 01:06:19.230
where the individual is unable to initially tolerate

01:06:19.230 --> 01:06:22.150
like a car drive, like a long car drive to get

01:06:22.150 --> 01:06:25.929
to the practitioner or they can't tolerate even

01:06:25.929 --> 01:06:29.409
like initially being in the session with the

01:06:29.409 --> 01:06:31.849
demand, the voter demands that are placed. Like

01:06:31.849 --> 01:06:36.349
sometimes it does take a decent amount of co

01:06:36.349 --> 01:06:39.269
-regulation and just kind of like getting used

01:06:39.269 --> 01:06:42.639
to it and them trusting, you know, trust is Trust

01:06:42.639 --> 01:06:46.320
is so, so, so important and trust isn't built

01:06:46.320 --> 01:06:50.239
in a day. Um, so that's, you know, that's the

01:06:50.239 --> 01:06:51.820
other main thing that comes to mind. You know,

01:06:51.840 --> 01:06:56.159
I've had parents call like, well, my, my, uh,

01:06:56.219 --> 01:06:58.519
child is going to hit, like they're going to

01:06:58.519 --> 01:07:00.099
throw things, they're going to hit, they're going

01:07:00.099 --> 01:07:02.199
to smash their head. Like, you know, just like

01:07:02.199 --> 01:07:07.420
a lot of difficult, um, physical behaviors that,

01:07:07.639 --> 01:07:10.639
that come alongside things. I always tell them,

01:07:10.639 --> 01:07:17.480
you know, there's nothing that, tru nothing that

01:07:17.480 --> 01:07:23.400
could be said go, whoa, we can't help t I think

01:07:23.400 --> 01:07:29.619
that it's just, t plan and it needs to be i hate

01:07:29.619 --> 01:07:36.440
to see people say, going to work because my or

01:07:36.440 --> 01:07:46.219
my child is going to because maybe, and I know

01:07:46.219 --> 01:07:48.760
that sounds silly, but maybe just really hearing

01:07:48.760 --> 01:07:52.380
from a professional, like, hey, I get it, you're

01:07:52.380 --> 01:07:54.400
in there. Like, I'm not gonna talk to you like

01:07:54.400 --> 01:07:56.019
you don't understand, because I know that you

01:07:56.019 --> 01:07:59.280
do. Sometimes that's regulated enough that they

01:07:59.280 --> 01:08:01.659
want to work for you then. Like, they're like,

01:08:01.659 --> 01:08:04.059
okay, let's try this. And even sometimes they

01:08:04.059 --> 01:08:07.059
want to work because they want to communicate,

01:08:07.099 --> 01:08:10.369
but their body still doesn't cooperate. That

01:08:10.369 --> 01:08:15.329
also could happen. But if you have a practitioner,

01:08:15.670 --> 01:08:18.569
they should be able to really walk you through

01:08:18.569 --> 01:08:23.689
what we can do to support their regulation so

01:08:23.689 --> 01:08:27.840
that they can get to spelling. on the boards

01:08:27.840 --> 01:08:31.600
because we can't always just dive right in. I've

01:08:31.600 --> 01:08:33.899
had spellers sometimes their motor is so tricky

01:08:33.899 --> 01:08:36.039
that like I go months where we're just really

01:08:36.039 --> 01:08:39.159
working on hitting one letter. Or I have spellers

01:08:39.159 --> 01:08:42.439
who have significant dysregulation challenges

01:08:42.439 --> 01:08:46.840
that we have to spend some time just like building

01:08:46.840 --> 01:08:49.659
trust and co -regulation strategies together.

01:08:50.039 --> 01:08:52.640
So that's what I'd say the other big barrier

01:08:52.640 --> 01:08:56.260
probably is. There are two things on your website

01:08:56.260 --> 01:08:59.380
that really stood out to me, and that's the individualized

01:08:59.380 --> 01:09:03.000
intervention and the meaningful relationships

01:09:03.000 --> 01:09:08.739
aspects. And I think maybe that's why, maybe

01:09:08.739 --> 01:09:11.819
you just described the sources of those. It's

01:09:11.819 --> 01:09:15.399
probably more, this represents who you are anyways,

01:09:15.939 --> 01:09:23.800
but it seems like those are. Required or I think

01:09:23.800 --> 01:09:26.439
so. I think so. I'm just gonna put my computer

01:09:26.439 --> 01:09:29.640
in here and give you the full the full tour of

01:09:29.640 --> 01:09:35.479
the office today, but Yeah, I mean I think that

01:09:35.479 --> 01:09:38.159
You can't do anything without relationships and

01:09:38.159 --> 01:09:40.880
without connection. I mean certainly so that's

01:09:40.880 --> 01:09:44.079
why I say like that is my background And that's

01:09:44.079 --> 01:09:46.199
what I come from but I just I could recognize

01:09:46.199 --> 01:09:49.359
that it wasn't the whole it just wasn't the whole

01:09:49.359 --> 01:09:57.199
picture. And, you know, individualization, that

01:09:57.199 --> 01:10:00.800
I'm very, very thankful for my therapy background.

01:10:01.380 --> 01:10:04.579
I think there's a lot that even though I had

01:10:04.579 --> 01:10:07.840
an excellent graduate program, I think it's just

01:10:07.840 --> 01:10:12.720
like a... more of a worldwide misunderstanding

01:10:12.720 --> 01:10:16.119
of a lot of things in which, you know, I'm thankful

01:10:16.119 --> 01:10:18.359
to the course, the Spelling to Communicate course,

01:10:18.880 --> 01:10:23.880
for teaching me those things. But my therapy

01:10:23.880 --> 01:10:27.100
background and Emma's therapy background definitely,

01:10:27.100 --> 01:10:32.560
I think, help with the individualization because

01:10:32.560 --> 01:10:36.220
we're just very used to that sort of therapy,

01:10:36.239 --> 01:10:39.479
um, therapy environment, kind of the hierarchies

01:10:39.479 --> 01:10:42.079
of support and the way that we interact with

01:10:42.079 --> 01:10:44.479
families. Like those are things that are very

01:10:44.479 --> 01:10:48.260
guided by our, our background with those. So,

01:10:49.180 --> 01:10:54.000
yeah. Yeah. Is there anything else that we haven't

01:10:54.000 --> 01:10:57.020
talked about or covered that you seem, uh, you

01:10:57.020 --> 01:11:01.800
find necessary? We've done. We've done a lot.

01:11:02.020 --> 01:11:03.840
It's so much, you know, when I like every time

01:11:03.840 --> 01:11:06.180
I sit down, this is like I think my fourth podcast

01:11:06.180 --> 01:11:09.619
that I've done about this. And every time I sit

01:11:09.619 --> 01:11:12.060
down, I'm like, gosh, it's so much information,

01:11:12.119 --> 01:11:14.439
like, you know, and they teach you in the course,

01:11:14.739 --> 01:11:17.180
give you like little five minute like spiels

01:11:17.180 --> 01:11:20.680
about about the different things. But even that

01:11:20.680 --> 01:11:22.600
it's like I give a five minute spiel and then

01:11:22.600 --> 01:11:26.460
it opens up 10 more cans of worms. So I think

01:11:27.130 --> 01:11:29.829
Yeah, it is. It is. There's just so much, you

01:11:29.829 --> 01:11:34.850
know, I'm basically trying to fit four, six months

01:11:34.850 --> 01:11:37.090
of a course and four years of experience into

01:11:37.090 --> 01:11:41.949
an hour. Um, and so I, you know, the, the biggest

01:11:41.949 --> 01:11:45.890
thing, um, that I try to tell families is that

01:11:45.890 --> 01:11:50.010
there is a leap of faith. Um, and it's the hardest

01:11:50.010 --> 01:11:54.140
part about spelling to communicate. Almost every

01:11:54.140 --> 01:11:59.060
single person who calls me says I Believe that

01:11:59.060 --> 01:12:01.279
it's real, but I don't know if it's gonna be

01:12:01.279 --> 01:12:04.640
my kid I don't know if my kid is going to be

01:12:04.640 --> 01:12:08.640
able to do this and that is I get it But I tell

01:12:08.640 --> 01:12:14.060
you almost everybody says that for a reason It

01:12:14.060 --> 01:12:18.270
you don't get immediate proof proof validation

01:12:18.270 --> 01:12:20.949
that they understand everything. You don't walk

01:12:20.949 --> 01:12:24.789
in on the first session in most cases. And, um,

01:12:24.789 --> 01:12:26.670
you know, they can just spell unassisted and

01:12:26.670 --> 01:12:28.930
you're like, Whoa, my gosh, they did understand

01:12:28.930 --> 01:12:31.710
everything the whole time. That that's not realistic,

01:12:32.270 --> 01:12:35.689
but, uh, because the prompting has to be faded.

01:12:36.090 --> 01:12:38.729
Um, and so initially, like I said, with full

01:12:38.729 --> 01:12:40.750
mingo, we're like, maybe we're pointing right

01:12:40.750 --> 01:12:43.789
to the letter and you're thinking, Oh my gosh,

01:12:43.789 --> 01:12:46.109
I don't know. Like, I don't know if this is really

01:12:46.109 --> 01:12:48.069
going to go anywhere. They're showing them right

01:12:48.069 --> 01:12:51.529
where to go. My best advice in that moment is

01:12:51.529 --> 01:12:54.210
kind of trust the process. Take the leap of faith

01:12:54.210 --> 01:12:57.329
because you won't get immediate validation. However,

01:12:58.289 --> 01:13:02.170
it will come. There will. Everybody has a different

01:13:02.170 --> 01:13:05.050
threshold for like what what it takes for them

01:13:05.050 --> 01:13:08.029
to be like, Whoa, OK, it seems like it seems

01:13:08.029 --> 01:13:12.109
like they really knew that answer. But. it will

01:13:12.109 --> 01:13:15.189
come if you stay consistent enough with it. Even

01:13:15.189 --> 01:13:17.689
though it takes that year to year and a half

01:13:17.689 --> 01:13:20.430
to two to three years, whatever, to get to open

01:13:20.430 --> 01:13:22.489
-ended communication, that doesn't mean that

01:13:22.489 --> 01:13:25.609
you're not gonna see the progress along the way.

01:13:26.170 --> 01:13:29.229
You are going to see the progress from session

01:13:29.229 --> 01:13:30.909
to session to session. Doesn't mean you won't

01:13:30.909 --> 01:13:35.270
have bad days. Everybody does. But the leap of

01:13:35.270 --> 01:13:39.399
faith is the hardest pill to swallow. And I think,

01:13:39.420 --> 01:13:41.279
you know, really, if we want to talk about a

01:13:41.279 --> 01:13:45.460
barrier, that is a hard and it's an understandable

01:13:45.460 --> 01:13:50.260
barrier because you have to. You know that for

01:13:50.260 --> 01:13:57.600
the parent has to. Not be afraid to hope, and

01:13:57.600 --> 01:14:01.960
that is really, really, really hard for most

01:14:01.960 --> 01:14:04.180
parents that and this is just from speaking to

01:14:04.180 --> 01:14:07.239
them that I know this. You have to you have to

01:14:07.239 --> 01:14:12.100
be. open in that way. And even if you don't believe

01:14:12.100 --> 01:14:15.420
it at first or you're a little skeptical, the

01:14:15.420 --> 01:14:19.659
leap of faith unfortunately is necessary. And

01:14:19.659 --> 01:14:22.680
I can tell you every single parent who's here

01:14:22.680 --> 01:14:24.420
doing it with their child would tell you that

01:14:24.420 --> 01:14:27.560
it was absolutely worth it, but not that it was

01:14:27.560 --> 01:14:31.819
easy. So if it's something people are open to

01:14:31.819 --> 01:14:35.079
learning about, learn about it. If you can go

01:14:35.079 --> 01:14:39.340
see a session in person, Go see a session in

01:14:39.340 --> 01:14:42.020
person, because you can watch 1 ,000 videos.

01:14:42.579 --> 01:14:45.180
There is nothing like going to watch a speller

01:14:45.180 --> 01:14:48.279
who is open -endedly communicating in a session.

01:14:48.739 --> 01:14:52.460
It is awesome, and it probably will change your

01:14:52.460 --> 01:14:54.659
perspective. And you might still have that bit

01:14:54.659 --> 01:14:56.880
of like, oh, but is my kid gonna be able to do

01:14:56.880 --> 01:14:59.100
it? But then when the parent who's sitting there

01:14:59.100 --> 01:15:01.739
with that speller who's typing says, yeah, I

01:15:01.739 --> 01:15:04.039
thought that too. You're gonna feel a lot better.

01:15:04.220 --> 01:15:09.359
So, underestimated, the book, underestimated

01:15:09.359 --> 01:15:12.380
by J .B. Handley is how most of my family's got

01:15:12.380 --> 01:15:14.840
to me. It's written by a dad and his fellow son

01:15:14.840 --> 01:15:19.359
and it's... Think it just resonates on a different

01:15:19.359 --> 01:15:21.760
level with family. So if you can get underestimated

01:15:21.760 --> 01:15:24.899
I know they have it on Amazon and read it. That's

01:15:24.899 --> 01:15:28.199
a great That's a great way to learn more from

01:15:28.199 --> 01:15:30.539
like a parent perspective, but nobody gets it

01:15:30.539 --> 01:15:35.699
like like another parent and so I think really

01:15:35.699 --> 01:15:38.710
though that's I think that's everything kind

01:15:38.710 --> 01:15:41.449
of in a nutshell. I mean, I probably could spend

01:15:41.449 --> 01:15:43.630
hours and hours and hours and hours talking about

01:15:43.630 --> 01:15:46.890
it, but that gives you a good snapshot, I think.

01:15:48.409 --> 01:15:51.289
Really good. I'm anxious to see what Spellers

01:15:51.289 --> 01:15:54.649
is like in one or three years from now, five

01:15:54.649 --> 01:15:58.670
years from now. Yeah. you can come back and give

01:15:58.670 --> 01:16:01.449
us some updates, I hope. Ah, I hope so. I think

01:16:01.449 --> 01:16:03.050
it's, I think it is going, I think it's just

01:16:03.050 --> 01:16:06.090
a matter of time, to be honest, that the things

01:16:06.090 --> 01:16:08.229
are really gonna shift and the research, they

01:16:08.229 --> 01:16:10.609
are working on the research, you know, everybody's.

01:16:10.829 --> 01:16:13.229
But what about the double -blind studies? And

01:16:13.229 --> 01:16:15.710
it's like, they're working on it. They're working

01:16:15.710 --> 01:16:19.470
on it. And there are a couple of research studies

01:16:19.470 --> 01:16:25.729
that do support spelled communication. And I

01:16:25.729 --> 01:16:30.050
encourage everybody to learn more and read both

01:16:30.050 --> 01:16:34.189
sides and make the determination for yourself.

01:16:35.149 --> 01:16:40.550
But it's changed. my life. I've learned so much

01:16:40.550 --> 01:16:45.090
from spellers. Um, and I, yeah, I'm just, I'm

01:16:45.090 --> 01:16:47.829
very thankful that, I'm very thankful that my

01:16:47.829 --> 01:16:51.529
buddy Kaden, uh, guided me here. Cause that's,

01:16:51.529 --> 01:16:53.770
that's really, he is, he knows it too. He's,

01:16:53.789 --> 01:16:56.289
he's, uh, he's very humble though, I will say,

01:16:56.329 --> 01:16:59.149
but he knows he's the, he's the reason we're,

01:16:59.149 --> 01:17:02.329
uh, we're, we're all here at this office right

01:17:02.329 --> 01:17:06.399
now. So I appreciate you wanting to. wanting

01:17:06.399 --> 01:17:09.579
to learn more about it, Ryan. And, um, yeah,

01:17:09.579 --> 01:17:12.859
I mean, even like anything that I can do, you

01:17:12.859 --> 01:17:16.699
know, my website does have a ton of information

01:17:16.699 --> 01:17:19.960
beyond speech therapy center .com. There's a

01:17:19.960 --> 01:17:22.420
tab for spelling to communicate. I ask has a

01:17:22.420 --> 01:17:26.659
ton of information. Um, so people who are wanting

01:17:26.659 --> 01:17:28.840
to learn more, that's where I'd say Facebook

01:17:28.840 --> 01:17:31.039
is great too. We post a lot of stuff, a lot of

01:17:31.039 --> 01:17:35.699
speller content on there. Um, but it's, uh, It's,

01:17:35.720 --> 01:17:38.079
it is kind of people refer to it as a revolution.

01:17:38.340 --> 01:17:41.140
I don't, um, I don't disagree with that. I think

01:17:41.140 --> 01:17:43.399
it really like the spellers are getting kind

01:17:43.399 --> 01:17:46.640
of fired up over here. Um, I think about it because

01:17:46.640 --> 01:17:48.420
they just, they want, they're like, listen, I

01:17:48.420 --> 01:17:50.340
don't want somebody to go through what, what

01:17:50.340 --> 01:17:53.640
I just went through 20 years of, you know, um,

01:17:53.699 --> 01:17:56.180
schooling that was way below where, where I was

01:17:56.180 --> 01:18:00.979
intellectually. So, um, yeah, I'm, I'm very thankful

01:18:00.979 --> 01:18:03.000
to be a part of it. It doesn't, it feels very

01:18:03.000 --> 01:18:06.750
surreal sometimes. Yeah, it's amazing work. Thank

01:18:06.750 --> 01:18:09.430
you so much. Well, Samantha, I hope you have

01:18:09.430 --> 01:18:12.489
a great day and keep doing this great stuff.

01:18:12.989 --> 01:18:15.010
Thank you, Ryan. I appreciate you. We'll talk

01:18:15.010 --> 01:18:16.470
soon. All right.