1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,000 My guest today is Jill Escher. 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Jill is a philanthropist focused on autism research, 3 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:10,000 a lawyer, and a mother of two autistic children. 4 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,000 More accurately, there are now young adults. 5 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:19,000 Jill is the president of the National Council on Severe Autism, 6 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:26,000 and a former president and current board member of the Autism Society, San Francisco Bay Area. 7 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:30,000 Through her work with the Escher Fund for Autism, 8 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:35,000 Jill leads innovative research investigating the causes of autism. 9 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:43,000 Her research enhances our understanding and pushes the boundaries of what we know about autism. 10 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:49,000 One example Jill explains during the episode involves research on germ cells. 11 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:56,000 The ability to question and expand research allows us to explore new regions of interest 12 00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:01,000 for understanding the causes of the autistic phenotype. 13 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:06,000 Please see the show notes for links to Jill's work in her research. 14 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:14,000 In addition, there are resources from previous episodes that support the timelines discussed in today's episode. 15 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:20,000 And now my conversation with Jill Escher. 16 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:25,000 Jill, can we start with you kind of telling us your journey into autism? 17 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:33,000 And I really want to add that I've heard you say recently that, and I'll quote, I wasn't looking for autism. 18 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,000 Autism found me. 19 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:48,000 Yeah, pretty much, pretty much, I mean, I grew up in the 60s and 70s into the 80s, and I had hardly heard of autism at all. 20 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,000 I had never met anybody with autism. 21 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:58,000 Even somebody who we might apply the label to today, I really can't think of anybody, you know, with traits, like my kids are similar, 22 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,000 all that ever come across. 23 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:13,000 Then I had three children, my husband and I have a 27 year old young man, a 25, almost 26 year old young man, and an 18 year old young lady. 24 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:24,000 And the latter two, the 20, almost 26 year old man and the 18 year old young woman are both profoundly autistic and nonverbal. 25 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:33,000 So, you know, these were very shocking, both times very shocking diagnoses. 26 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:38,000 Again, we had nothing like autism in our family histories. 27 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,000 We didn't know people with autism. 28 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:44,000 It was not something we read about nothing we saw in the news. 29 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,000 It was not on our radar at all. 30 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:57,000 Like when I was pregnant with my sons, I mean, it just, it just didn't even occur to me that it was something I would even think about. 31 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:05,000 Like, I thought, you know, you know, you're pregnant, you think about, oh, maybe you're a kid with Down syndrome or maybe a kid would have a birth defect or whatever. 32 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:09,000 It just didn't even occur to me that, you know, autism would be a possibility. 33 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:18,000 So when Johnny, who was born in 1999 was diagnosed in 2001, it was like, what are you even talking about? 34 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:30,000 Like, you know, the neurologist who had assessed him when he was about two and a half, you know, saw very obviously that he had very severe classic autism. 35 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,000 But we're like, where did, where did that come from? 36 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:46,000 And even I will say, Ryan, to this day, nobody knows where these devastating disorders came from in our son Johnny or our daughter Sophie. 37 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:51,000 They are idiopathic as are the majority of cases of autism. 38 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:59,000 There were no risk factors in my pregnancies. Again, nothing up our family trees to suggest that autism could be a risk. 39 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:06,000 So this remains to me a, a, a, a, a, a, a, abominable mystery as it is in most cases. 40 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,000 So that's how autism came to me. 41 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,000 It was not something I was, I was at all looking for. 42 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:21,000 I was a lawyer at the time that I had Johnny and I had anticipated a career in land use law. 43 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:25,680 I had a whole other world going on. 44 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,640 And then this just sort of got dropped like a bomb. 45 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:31,160 Wow. 46 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,120 How long was it after, 47 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:34,960 I have a couple of questions about what you just said, 48 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:36,160 but the first one is, 49 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:40,400 how long was it after the birth of Johnny, 50 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,260 did you kind of say something, 51 00:04:44,260 --> 00:04:45,400 what is going on here? 52 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:50,400 And then kind of take that role into now, 53 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:51,800 what you do now? 54 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:56,720 Right, well, the birth of Johnny, 55 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:58,280 again, it was very shocking, 56 00:04:58,280 --> 00:05:00,440 it kind of threw our life course 57 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:02,000 in a completely different direction. 58 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,200 This happens with, I'd say most autism families, right? 59 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:06,400 You're going a certain direction, 60 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,840 you have certain understandings about the world, 61 00:05:08,840 --> 00:05:11,040 you have certain expectations about what your children will be, 62 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:12,520 you have certain expectations about how your family 63 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,760 is gonna operate, and then boom, 64 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,600 you just get flung in a completely different direction. 65 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:24,200 And at first, I think like most families, 66 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,480 you really wanna figure out what to do to help your child. 67 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,080 That was the first priority out the bat. 68 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:30,760 You're like, well, there must be something 69 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:32,600 we can do about it. 70 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,320 So Johnny was really a poster child for autism. 71 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,240 I mean, when he was little, 72 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:38,640 he was flapping his hands, 73 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:40,480 he would always look at little things, 74 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,520 little objects, little corners, little intersections, 75 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:44,640 he went in the pavement, 76 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:46,280 he would chew things all the time, 77 00:05:46,280 --> 00:05:48,440 he couldn't talk, he didn't respond to his name, 78 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,960 he never pointed, he never shared or showed, 79 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,480 he was very irritable, he had trouble sleeping, 80 00:05:55,480 --> 00:06:00,200 he had very weird food, no predilections, 81 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:02,320 I mean, there's so many different things 82 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,640 that Johnny had, it's like every check mark, 83 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,840 check, check, check, check, check, he had all of them. 84 00:06:07,840 --> 00:06:09,360 But he was physically quite normal, 85 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:11,080 except he had an abnormally large head, 86 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:16,080 which again is seen in the subset of kids with autism, 87 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,960 autism is abnormally large head circumference. 88 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,400 And that persists to this day, actually. 89 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:27,320 Yeah, again, really unexplained, 90 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:31,320 because the CT scan that was done at 12 months was abnormal, 91 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:35,080 was normal, and so of course it remains idiopathic. 92 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:37,960 But he's a normal guy, healthy guy, 93 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:40,520 nothing else, nothing you would expect 94 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:44,280 from a disorder, a mental disorder of this magnitude, 95 00:06:44,280 --> 00:06:46,120 usually when you have an intellectual disability 96 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,320 of this magnitude, it's accompanied 97 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:53,000 by physical abnormalities, facial dysmorphisms, 98 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,200 things like that, and that was not the case with Johnny. 99 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:00,560 So anyway, so I got flung in this other direction, 100 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:02,760 very interested in how to help my kids. 101 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,480 And like most moms, I tried everything, 102 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:10,480 like I tried the diet, I tried taking him to speech therapy, 103 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:13,520 I tried taking him to occupational therapy, 104 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:15,480 I tried sensory therapies, 105 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:23,320 different kinds of classes, ABA, intervention programs. 106 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,440 I mean, I didn't do like the weirder things, 107 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,440 like hyperbaric oxygen, 108 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:34,280 or some of the crazier interventions you hear of. 109 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,120 But nothing really seemed to move Johnny 110 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,720 off of his trajectory at all, at all. 111 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:42,720 So that was pretty fearless. 112 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:44,600 By the time Sophie was born, 113 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:48,560 and she was displaying all those check marks of autism, 114 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,960 she had some language, I was like echolalic, 115 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,040 but she didn't have any conversational language. 116 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,240 She wasn't playing with toys, right? 117 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,680 That's really a hallmark when they're not playing with toys 118 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,520 and they're not demonstrating the capacity 119 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:05,360 for abstract thought. 120 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:07,000 And when they're not imitating, 121 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:08,800 and they're not sharing and showing and pointing 122 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,440 and acquiring words, like whenever I'm with 123 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:13,160 like a typical two-year-old, 124 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,760 I'm always astonished at what sponges they are, right? 125 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:18,920 They're just taking in everything 126 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,400 and they're learning vocabulary very rapidly. 127 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:22,880 My kids, none of that. 128 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,000 So by the time Sophie came along, 129 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,520 you know, we knew what was going on. 130 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:31,040 And she was identified with autism by 18 months. 131 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:35,040 Such an eye mirror. 132 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:40,000 Yeah, I mean, this was like two kids with severe, 133 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,320 you know, neurodevelopmental abnormality. 134 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,200 And again, you know, we don't know why. 135 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,640 So, you know, I've really been devoting my life 136 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:50,720 to pushing for answers. 137 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:53,360 Yeah. 138 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,600 My understanding is you sorted a couple of, 139 00:08:58,560 --> 00:09:01,480 correct me if I'm wrong, a nonprofit 140 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,000 or this organization or foundation 141 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,880 that can you tell me a little bit about that? 142 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,120 I know there's a couple of them actually, but. 143 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,040 Yeah, so I've been involved with several, 144 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:14,320 several nonprofits. 145 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:18,600 So everyone kind of fits a different bucket. 146 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:20,400 So I'm very interested in research. 147 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,120 So I have a fund, a philanthropic fund, 148 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:26,320 which we call Escher Fund for Autism. 149 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:31,320 And all it does is it funds pilot research studies 150 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:33,080 that look at novel ideas 151 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:34,880 about what might be causing autism. 152 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:39,880 We also do quite a bit of advocacy for research, 153 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,520 research advocacy, but I think our primary goal 154 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:46,320 is to fund pilot studies. 155 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:47,720 I've also published quite a bit 156 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,360 in the scientific literature in partnership 157 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,720 with other scientists about these questions 158 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:56,520 that we explore. 159 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,640 And I'm involved in other ways in the autism field, 160 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:00,880 non-research things. 161 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:02,640 For example, I'm a co-founder 162 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,600 of the National Council on Severe Autism, 163 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,080 and I'm past president of Autism Society, 164 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,440 San Francisco Bay Area. 165 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:11,480 Yeah, yeah, it's still on the wall. 166 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:13,560 Yeah, so I do a lot and other things too, 167 00:10:13,560 --> 00:10:14,880 but those are the main ones. 168 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:15,920 Okay. 169 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:17,040 What are some of the highlights 170 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,880 of the pilot study research? 171 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:23,520 Yeah, so we, yeah, like our focus, 172 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:28,280 so I'm sure a lot of your listeners are aware 173 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,120 that autism is highly heritable, right? 174 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,640 It's conjectured to be strongly genetic 175 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:35,800 because it's highly heritable. 176 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,680 So for example, if you have one child with autism, 177 00:10:38,680 --> 00:10:41,520 you have like a 16 to 20% chance 178 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:43,200 of having a second child with autism. 179 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,040 That's how strongly heritable it is. 180 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,720 Not that autism really runs down ancestries. 181 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,000 We don't see any strong evidence for that at all. 182 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,640 It's not like, great-grandparent, grandparent, 183 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:56,520 you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. 184 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:58,160 I mean, that'll happen from time to time, 185 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,040 but that's not a strong driver of autism. 186 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,160 Most of the heritability is seen 187 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,600 because of increased risk among siblings 188 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,400 or even, you know, among half siblings 189 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:12,040 and to a slightly lesser degree. 190 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:13,720 So the question is why? 191 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:15,200 What is causing this herit? 192 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:19,320 Why does autism, quote unquote, run in families like that? 193 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:23,600 That is the question that we focus on. 194 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,680 Almost all, I would say 99.9% of the attention 195 00:11:27,680 --> 00:11:32,040 in the funding has gone into genetics. 196 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,520 Thinkin', well, Jill has, you know, 197 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,080 Johnny and Sophie and they both have profound autism. 198 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:43,000 So therefore Jill and or her husband must be carrying genes 199 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,960 that, you know, raise that risk of autism in their children. 200 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:48,280 Right, and that's the thinking. 201 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:52,840 That's been the paradigm that has dominated autism research 202 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,840 for, I don't know, 15 years. 203 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,760 I would say a good 15 years is hunting for the genes 204 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:00,720 that cause autism. 205 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,200 Now those genes come in two flavors. 206 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,800 The first flavor is what they call a rare variant. 207 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,160 And that's usually something that, 208 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,160 like a mutation of some sort 209 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,880 that causes some fairly severe phenotype. 210 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,920 And we can think of lots and lots of examples of that. 211 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:26,920 You know, you can look up on the Simon's Foundation gene list, 212 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,160 you know, the 100-ish genes that are associated 213 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,760 with autism in that way. 214 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,640 The other flavor that the genes come in, 215 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,640 it are what they call common variants. 216 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,280 So they're variants that are normally harmless 217 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:49,320 and they occur in more than 5% of people. 218 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:50,680 They're normally harmless. 219 00:12:50,680 --> 00:12:54,200 But the idea is, their theory is that 220 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,040 those common variants can, you know, 221 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:01,480 somehow conflate together to increase the risk 222 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,400 for autism in the child. 223 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:08,880 Now there is almost no evidence for that. 224 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,000 There's a little bit of evidence, but it's so weak 225 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,280 that it's, you know, it doesn't amount to much. 226 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,720 There's very strong evidence for rare variants 227 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,840 causing autism in rare cases. 228 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:23,840 And by the way, with those rare variants, 229 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:26,480 none of them explain more than 1% of the autism. 230 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:30,040 So they are indeed very rare even in the autism world. 231 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:32,400 So my kids, you know, have none of that. 232 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:36,040 And most of the kids with autism 233 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:40,760 and adults with autism don't have any genetic factors 234 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:41,600 that are known. 235 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,040 So I look at, well, what else is causing the heritability 236 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,960 if it's not the genes where everyone else is looking, right? 237 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:48,400 9.9% of the people, 238 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,000 they're looking at genes. 239 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:54,160 I'm looking at non-genetic factors, if that makes sense. 240 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:55,000 Yeah. 241 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:56,920 What are some of the interesting findings you found 242 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,200 with the non-genetic factors? 243 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:00,720 Yeah, it's a little complex. 244 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:05,280 And so I do want to kind of say at the outset 245 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:10,280 that I apologize for anything that's complicated. 246 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,040 I really try not to make things too hard 247 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:19,040 because people tend to resist complex biology. 248 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,280 It's not because they're stupid, 249 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,640 but because it's not something they're schooled in. 250 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:27,720 But the stuff I do is I have to say 251 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,480 pretty advanced molecular biology, 252 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,800 but I'll try to do my best to simplify it. 253 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:39,480 All right, so everyone knows what a gene is, I think. 254 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,720 A gene is a sequence of letters, really. 255 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,600 Sequence of bases in your DNA. 256 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:51,120 They are transcribed and they are made into a protein, 257 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:52,680 and that protein does something. 258 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:54,160 For example, in the brain, 259 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:58,800 that protein can help create a neuron 260 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,360 or help create something that moves a neuron 261 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,560 from one place to another in development. 262 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,120 So the proteins have multiple functions. 263 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:08,720 If something goes wrong in the gene, 264 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:10,400 that means something goes wrong in the protein there, 265 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:11,880 it means something goes wrong in the tissue, 266 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:14,120 which means something goes wrong in the organ, 267 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:18,360 right, and you have some sort of disorder or condition. 268 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,120 All right, that's pretty straightforward. 269 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,120 That's textbook high school biology. 270 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,800 What's not textbook high school biology 271 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,480 is something called epigenetics 272 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,240 or transcriptional regulation. 273 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,400 Okay, so again, people hear these words, 274 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:35,680 they get a little bit scared, don't run away, 275 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:37,560 it's not that hard. 276 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:42,560 So you can have the effect of a mutation 277 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,960 without having a mutation, 278 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,120 i.e. all of those letters, all those base pairs 279 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,680 in the DNA can be perfectly normal. 280 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:56,680 You will have a perfectly normal scan of your genome 281 00:15:57,920 --> 00:15:59,600 if you're genetically tested. 282 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:04,600 However, the problem is it's not just 283 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:06,880 the genetic code that matters. 284 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:11,880 What also matters is how those genes are expressed. 285 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:18,640 What happens to them, right, how do they get transcribed? 286 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:20,920 Are the genes turned off? 287 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:22,920 Are the genes turned on? 288 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:24,800 Are the genes turned up? 289 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,120 Are the genes turned down? 290 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:31,480 There are a whole bunch of regulatory processes 291 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:36,480 around genes that affect how they are expressed. 292 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:38,960 That's sometimes called epigenetics. 293 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,760 It's actually a broader world than just epigenetics, 294 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,960 but I'll use the word epigenetics for simplicity now. 295 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,120 So we focus on that. 296 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:52,120 What can be going wrong with the gene expression 297 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,440 in the child that can give rise 298 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,520 to abnormal neurodevelopment and then abnormal phenotypes 299 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:04,160 like autism. 300 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,840 And again, this is a little complex. 301 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:07,920 I'm sorry, I'm really sorry. 302 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:09,200 There's almost, everyone says, 303 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,800 Jill, Jill, Jill, you need like an elevator pitch. 304 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:13,640 Like you need an elevator to explain this. 305 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:14,920 I'm like, there's no elevator pitch. 306 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:16,280 It's really complex. 307 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,120 But then to go back to the heritability point. 308 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:27,480 Things are heritable if they come basically 309 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:31,120 from the sperm or the egg of the parents. 310 00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:32,160 Does that make sense? 311 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:37,720 So I contribute an egg, my husband contributes a sperm. 312 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,880 Those are the heritable components, right? 313 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:47,240 That fuse and then create the child, right? 314 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:48,840 And those heritable components, 315 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:53,840 those what they call germ cells, contain DNA, 316 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,280 but they contain much, much, much more than DNA. 317 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,920 They contain all these regulatory factors, 318 00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:03,360 epigenetic and other regulatory factors. 319 00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:08,000 So this is to me the ultimate question in autism. 320 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,960 What could be happening in the germ cells 321 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,600 that influence these regulatory factors? 322 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,840 Now, I mean, it seems like a crazy question. 323 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,080 Like, okay, here's my drink. 324 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:26,080 So if I drink my, whatever this is, my lemonade or whatever, 325 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:35,120 is that going to affect my germ cells? 326 00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:37,320 Then if we're gonna affect my child? 327 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:39,240 The answer is like, no. 328 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:41,360 Most things don't affect your germ cells. 329 00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:45,120 Your germ cells are very well protected from damage. 330 00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:46,840 Almost, there's almost nothing. 331 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,680 You know, the air you breathe isn't gonna matter. 332 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:51,880 You know, the food you eat for the most part 333 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:53,560 isn't gonna matter. 334 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,280 You know, the amount of steps you take today 335 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:57,880 isn't gonna matter. 336 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,680 But some things do matter. 337 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:06,680 And I work on one, I work on a couple of things, 338 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,320 but for example, here's an example of one thing 339 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,000 that we work on, which is, 340 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,800 when you are put under general anesthesia, 341 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,720 you are anesthetized, right? 342 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:24,720 You are put into a state of basically, 343 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:29,560 you're basically an induced coma, essentially. 344 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:35,680 And you lose all sensory function. 345 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,880 And you're unconscious, it's a state of unconsciousness, 346 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,000 it's induced unconsciousness. 347 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:46,000 And what we see, for example, in animal studies 348 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:50,080 is that these general anesthetics 349 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,520 can affect your germ cells too. 350 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,200 So it's not just affecting your body, 351 00:19:55,200 --> 00:20:00,200 it's also affecting your reproductive cells. 352 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:06,000 And in the animal models, when we anesthetize the rats 353 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,360 or the mice, and then we breed them, 354 00:20:10,360 --> 00:20:15,200 these animals are more likely to have offspring 355 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,880 with neurodevelopmental abnormalities 356 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,320 and behavioral abnormalities. 357 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,680 So again, it's so complex. 358 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:26,960 I can't even believe I'm even talking to you about this 359 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:31,960 because I almost exclusively talk to scientific audiences. 360 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,440 I don't really deal with lay audiences, 361 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:37,520 except here and there. 362 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,600 And that's because it is a very, very complicated thing. 363 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:45,600 But unlike the vast majority of exposures, 364 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:50,720 this is an exposure that can damage your reproductive cells, 365 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,400 which is to say, you're sperm and egg in their precursor, 366 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:57,680 at precursors. 367 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:02,560 And then the offspring are at enhanced risk 368 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,320 for having autism-like phenotypes. 369 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,120 So we've seen this in a couple of studies. 370 00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:11,560 The question is, are we seeing it in humans? 371 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:13,200 And the answer is we don't know 372 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:17,080 because there hasn't been any human studies done. 373 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:21,640 So what I try to do is convince researchers 374 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:25,800 who are in this space that these are very important questions, 375 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:30,800 that we need to look beyond the genetic sequence 376 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,980 to look for the missing heritability of autism. 377 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:36,760 It's complex. 378 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,040 Really, again, I apologize to everybody. 379 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,280 Two questions to follow up. 380 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,120 So are you thinking that it's within the specific germ cell 381 00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:50,120 or is it once they start proliferation? 382 00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:51,160 Yeah, okay. 383 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,560 Well, this is a really incredibly good question. 384 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:59,560 So we are born with something called primordial germ cells. 385 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,040 And then again, in when you're in high school biology, 386 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:09,040 you learn about the process of meiosis, right? 387 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,240 So you start with these primordial germ cells 388 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,960 and then the males and females completely diverge, 389 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,320 completely in terms of what happens 390 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,200 in germ cell development. 391 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,960 What happens in males is a pool of germ cells 392 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,200 called spermatogonial stem cells 393 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,480 kind of are right there in the gonads. 394 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,280 And those spermatogonial stem cells 395 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:34,080 are constantly churning out, or after puberty, 396 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,760 constantly churning out sperm. 397 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,760 So sperm tids to the mature spermatizoma. 398 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:48,560 But if the pool of the spermatogonial stem cells 399 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,160 are perturbed in some way, right? 400 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,800 Let's say that you are three years old, right? 401 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:59,120 And you undergo surgery and for some reason, 402 00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:01,680 and it perturbs your germ cells. 403 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,880 Well, if it's not repaired, 404 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,800 and by the way, we have really robust repair processes 405 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,560 in the gonads, but if it's not repaired, for example, 406 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,120 if you have like surgery after surgery 407 00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:15,240 after surgery after surgery, 408 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:20,240 then those defects will stay in the spermatogonial stem cells 409 00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:23,680 and therefore translate into at least some 410 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,160 of the mature sperm later on. 411 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,960 So you're right to ask because it's a long process, right? 412 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,920 It's not like it's a one day thing 413 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,720 because you can have a hit when you're two years old 414 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,280 or 12 years old and that might not manifest 415 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,600 until your child is three years old, 416 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,120 which is a crazy thing to think, right? 417 00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:48,600 With females, we're born with all of our eggs. 418 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:51,880 Like we, I think that's sort of a cliche, right? 419 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,600 Girls are born with all their eggs and they are, 420 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,000 you know, pretty much. 421 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,400 So if there's damage to the eggs that's not repaired, 422 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:05,920 the pool of OO sites, you know, those could be, 423 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,360 you know, those can carry into the next generation 424 00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:10,480 if it's not repaired. 425 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,000 So yeah, it's different for the males and the females, 426 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:18,440 but definitely what we've seen in the animal studies 427 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,000 is it doesn't matter where the hit is. 428 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,640 The hit can be when they're in the womb, like a fetus. 429 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,560 The hit can be when they're neonates. 430 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:27,680 The hit can be when they're young adults. 431 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,960 The hit can be when they're pre-conception, right? 432 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,640 Adults, it doesn't matter that these compounds, 433 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,040 which are highly, highly toxic by the way, 434 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,440 can affect the germ cells. 435 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,760 So that's kind of scary to think that the germ cells 436 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,160 can be affected at any point in the life cycle. 437 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,960 Yeah, but again, this is the only scene in animal models. 438 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,120 Have we done a single human study? 439 00:24:52,120 --> 00:24:54,000 No, we do know from human studies, 440 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:58,840 however that these compounds can damage germ cells generally. 441 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,720 We just haven't looked at the heritability part. 442 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:03,480 It's some of these rats and mice. 443 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,560 Do they show like stereotype movements, 444 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,320 like licking and their social withdrawal and so forth? 445 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,320 Yeah, what a good, good, good question. 446 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:17,320 So I have a couple of videos linked on my website, 447 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,680 at least two on my website. 448 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,840 So for the supergeeks who want to dive in 449 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:31,200 and see each of the studies summarized, 450 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,320 because they each look at something slightly different. 451 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,000 There are no two studies that are exactly the same. 452 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,760 But go to gelesher.com, ESCHER.com. 453 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:44,760 I gave one at Harvard this year and UCLA, 454 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:50,160 or that was 2024, Harvard, UCLA was 2023, I believe. 455 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,200 And those I think have pretty decent amount of detail. 456 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,120 So for the supergeeks, look at those. 457 00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:56,760 But generally, yes, you're right. 458 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,600 They will look at social behaviors. 459 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,960 They will look at anxiety-like behaviors. 460 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,160 They will look at sometimes motor behaviors. 461 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:07,680 Again, everyone's different. 462 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,960 Communication, vocalization type behaviors. 463 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,120 It depends on what the scientist thinks is salient. 464 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,360 Yeah, we need a lot more of them. 465 00:26:19,360 --> 00:26:24,040 I mean, right now we don't have, I think there've been 466 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,120 a total of 10 studies over time. 467 00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:29,760 It's just not enough, we need a lot more. 468 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,760 So hopefully we'll see a couple more published this year, 2025. 469 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,440 Yeah, I'm very interested with how impactful- 470 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:40,360 When they look at the brain too, 471 00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:42,000 I should say it's not just behavior. 472 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,600 So depending on the lab and depending on the scientist, 473 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,960 they'll chop up the brain, right? 474 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,960 And they'll see like, oh, has the brain developed abnormally? 475 00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:57,240 Or they'll look for abnormal gene expression. 476 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,240 They'll look for the RNAs, et cetera. 477 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,040 I won't get into too much, 478 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,960 but they can look on a molecular level 479 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:05,760 and a tissue level as well. 480 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:07,320 And there's some data that's- 481 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,800 Yeah, and there's data showing that, 482 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,960 oh, there's this, I mean, I don't have my notes in front of me. 483 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:14,800 Yeah, that's fine. 484 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,160 Yeah, sorry, sorry about that. 485 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,120 But yeah, yeah, most definitely they see some differences 486 00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:23,320 in the brain of the off-screen. 487 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,600 The rodents, the rats and mice are very, 488 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,360 you can turn them autistic quite easily. 489 00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:32,000 I mean, I don't want to say quite easily, 490 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:33,920 but it is possible. 491 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,120 Yeah, you can induce, quote unquote, 492 00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:38,720 I would get an autism doesn't really exist in rodents. 493 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,280 So these are just signal behaviors. 494 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,600 I wouldn't call them autism at all, 495 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:50,600 but you can induce an autism-like phenotype 496 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,280 in the rodents using these exposures. 497 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:55,120 Yeah. 498 00:27:56,360 --> 00:27:57,840 Are your plans moving forward 499 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,240 is to expand on those or replicate them or? 500 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,960 Yeah, we need more animal studies. 501 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,680 And I really am hoping to get 502 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,480 some human studies off the ground this year. 503 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,640 I've already talked to two labs 504 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,560 that are very, very interested 505 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,280 in doing human epidemiological studies. 506 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,520 So let's hope that, you know, that can happen 507 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:24,600 or at least start this year. 508 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,320 These things take several years to do 509 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,980 these epidemiological studies minimum three years. 510 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:36,040 Yeah, well, they need a big data set with two generations. 511 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,520 They need really robust data with two, 512 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,880 and that's not easy to do. 513 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:43,840 It's not easy. 514 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:46,920 So animals and humans, you know, we need them both. 515 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,720 I've also funded some studies that are more molecular 516 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:51,800 and in vitro. 517 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,240 So in vitro people, what it means is basically like 518 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,680 doing something in a test tube or in a petri dish 519 00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,360 rather than doing something in an animal. 520 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,080 So you can take a cell culture, 521 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,200 do something to the cell culture, you know, an exposure 522 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,600 and then see the consequences of that. 523 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,720 So I funded that too. 524 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,640 It's a very uncharted territory. 525 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:16,280 It's wide open for all kinds of approaches. 526 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:21,280 It's just, it's so off the radar of mainstream research 527 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,560 that most researchers just won't even think about going there 528 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,920 because they're only interested in genes. 529 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,680 Yeah, and that's a dead end road. 530 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,520 Well, I think they've already found out 99% 531 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,760 of what they're ever gonna find out in genetics. 532 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:39,640 You know, there's not much more to be discovered. 533 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,240 They're honestly, even when I talk to the geneticists, 534 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,240 you know, they say that too. 535 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,400 Yeah, but I think we'll keep going. 536 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,800 I think, I don't think the research will stop on it. 537 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:54,800 Might slow down, but I don't know with the genetics. 538 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,320 Well, there's still so much money going into genetics. 539 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:00,480 That's who's money. 540 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,480 The Simons Foundation funds almost exclusively genetics. 541 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,920 A lot of the NIH money has gone to genetics. 542 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:08,920 It's just not, you're right. 543 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:10,440 It's probably not slowing down, 544 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:11,600 but I think it's unfortunate 545 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,280 because we're missing the opportunity 546 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,520 to look at other hypotheses because, you know, 547 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:22,280 genetics cannot possibly explain the incredible explosion 548 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,120 and prevalence that we've seen in autism 549 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:26,760 over the past 30 years. 550 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,000 I mean, you know, we were talking before 551 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,040 about prevalence data, but you know, it's just, 552 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:33,920 there's such overwhelming evidence 553 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,200 that we've experienced a stupendous increase 554 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,080 in autism that started with births 555 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,560 in like the late 80s, early 90s. 556 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,920 That was sort of the inflection point. 557 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,760 And then from there, we've seen exponential growth 558 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,840 in autism, even when it's pretty strictly defined, 559 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,440 you know, I'm not talking about like TikTok autism 560 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,920 and you know, quirky autism. 561 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:02,160 Even when it's clearly and observably a disorder, 562 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,320 we've seen those rates really climb. 563 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,480 And you know, we're not taking it seriously enough. 564 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,240 We're not doing anything to figure out what's causing it. 565 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,800 We're not doing anything to really meaningfully prevent it. 566 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,520 And I think it, honestly, it could have, 567 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,600 it's something that could have insanely dire consequences 568 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,360 for our country, you know, for our families, 569 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,480 in calculably huge costs. 570 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,280 You know, we ran some numbers based primarily 571 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:33,360 on California data, 572 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,400 because California is such good birthyear data on autism. 573 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,360 And you know, we're gonna see right now, 574 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,000 I can actually have the numbers 575 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,000 because I was just working on a slide. 576 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:46,760 Let me find it one second 577 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:48,680 because I want to, I'll be accurate this time. 578 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:49,840 Here it is. 579 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:54,840 Okay, so in California, right now, 580 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,720 we have about 8,000 cases of autism 581 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:07,720 with parents, you know, above approximately age 65. 582 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:13,240 Right, so these are parents who are getting older, 583 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:17,000 harder, more difficult to care for their children, 584 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,720 having more health issues, et cetera. 585 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,400 And right now that number is about 8,000. 586 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,840 We can project based on the current California caseload 587 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:30,440 and the birthyear data 588 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:35,440 that that number is going to be 160,000 in 30 years. 589 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:41,280 In case that's a 20-fold, you know, increase. 590 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,440 It's a 20-fold increase. 591 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:48,440 I mean, I can't begin to tell you what a calamity it is already 592 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:56,400 with respect to these adult autism cases in California 593 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,200 with older parents or dying parents. 594 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:01,960 It's already horrible. 595 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,120 And the system is already completely bursting 596 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,920 at the seams, it's completely maxed out, completely. 597 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,080 Like I just talked to a family today, 598 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,720 they can't find a single placement for their adult son 599 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:17,720 in the entire state of California, 600 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:20,400 in the entire state of California. 601 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:21,680 This is not uncommon. 602 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,160 And this is a state that has better services than most. 603 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:30,160 Yet this situation will be 20-fold worse 604 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,360 in terms of demand in 30 years. 605 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,720 I mean, it's unbelievable to even contemplate. 606 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:42,720 We have not come close to grappling with the reality 607 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,400 that lies ahead of us. 608 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,340 It's really horrible. 609 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,880 But, you know, we're so caught up in this idea. 610 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,640 We're so caught up in the genetic studies. 611 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:56,480 We spent so much- 612 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:57,720 Well, the genetic studies and the idea that, 613 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,360 oh, you know, we're just diagnosing it more. 614 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,520 You know, it's that the increasing rates isn't really real. 615 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:05,360 It's an artifact of awareness. 616 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,360 It's an artifact of changing conceptions. 617 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,440 It's not a real biological thing, 618 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:10,880 which is complete nonsense. 619 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:11,880 It's utter nonsense. 620 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,880 I mean, as I said, the evidence is absolutely overwhelming 621 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:20,880 for true increase and there is no evidence, none, zero, 622 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,200 zero evidence that can explain this increase 623 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:28,560 through non-idiological or what do you say, non-biological, 624 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:33,560 non-sociological effects. 625 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,880 I don't really like when people say 626 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,600 that it's things like we're diagnosing more. 627 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,880 Because even if we normalize that, 628 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:48,880 it doesn't account for hardly any, 629 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:53,880 especially on a significant level of the actual increase. 630 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,120 It might account for some, but nothing like- 631 00:34:58,120 --> 00:34:59,600 No, it can't. 632 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:01,560 It depends on the system. 633 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,480 See, each system is a little bit different, right? 634 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:05,600 Because you have data, for example, 635 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:07,880 from developmental services, you have data from the schools, 636 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:09,360 you have data from epidemiology, 637 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,640 you have data from medical records. 638 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,440 There's all kinds of different data. 639 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,600 And they all use different kind of criteria, 640 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,560 different assessment methods. 641 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,400 So I get it, it's not super-duper clean. 642 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,640 But no matter which segment you look at, 643 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,440 whether it's the school data or hospital records 644 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,960 or whatever, they all show the same thing. 645 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,400 They're all showing the exact same trends 646 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,120 at the exact same time. 647 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,840 It's stupendous and what there is not 648 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,800 is anything in the literature that explains it 649 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:43,080 through some other mechanisms. 650 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:44,640 Oh, like for example, here's a popular one. 651 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,560 The popular one is, oh, we are just relabeling 652 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,480 intellectual disability, which used to be called MR, right? 653 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,200 We are just relabeling intellectual disability as autism. 654 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:57,920 Well, that's a nice idea, 655 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,480 except there's no evidence for it. 656 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:03,240 There might be a little evidence 657 00:36:03,240 --> 00:36:05,320 over a short period of time here and there 658 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,840 that it can explain like little wobbles. 659 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:12,480 But nothing that can explain 660 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:16,760 this overwhelming surge of autism from any other label. 661 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,800 So it's nice that they come up with these ideas, 662 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:24,560 but it's not enough to just conjecture, show me the data. 663 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,160 I've read it, I've poured through the school data. 664 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,040 I've poured through the developmental systems data. 665 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,600 I've poured through the epidemiological data, 666 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:38,600 not just in the US, but in 10 countries. 667 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,200 It's not, this is not subtle stuff. 668 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:42,520 None of this is subtle. 669 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,240 These are overwhelming numbers. 670 00:36:45,240 --> 00:36:49,440 You know, as I say, on California, 1989, 671 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,560 we had about 3,000 cases of autism. 672 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,840 We now have 190,000 cases of autism 673 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:57,280 in the developmental system. 674 00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,320 So I'm not talking about broad spectrum. 675 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,640 I'm talking about just the developmental services definition, 676 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,520 the Medicaid definition. 677 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:05,960 So same data set. 678 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:07,200 This is your definition. 679 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,440 Same data point or data set. 680 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,480 Yeah, so same data set, same criteria. 681 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,000 In fact, the criteria became narrower, not broader, 682 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,760 in 2003 in California. 683 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:24,320 So we're talking about significant functional disability. 684 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,440 You can't qualify to be in this system 685 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:29,640 with just a label of autism. 686 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:31,440 You have to have autism plus. 687 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,360 Autism plus significant functional disability 688 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,880 across three major areas of life functioning. 689 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:39,760 It's serious. 690 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:44,000 And yeah, the numbers are just enormous. 691 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,960 And it's not like we can go back and find this missing 692 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,480 hoard of adults with autism that weren't found before. 693 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,600 Those have never been found ever, ever. 694 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:55,360 I mean, it's absurd. 695 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,200 And it's frustrating to have to be at this point 696 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:03,120 that we're still fighting against the myth of better 697 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:04,760 diagnosis. 698 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,560 I think we should be well past the point of all 699 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:15,120 of this past the point of doubt. 700 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:16,320 There's no doubt. 701 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:16,840 Yeah. 702 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:18,160 There's just no doubt. 703 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:19,480 If you're increasing. 704 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:20,080 Yeah. 705 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:25,240 What are your thoughts on the relationship with vaccine? 706 00:38:25,240 --> 00:38:28,960 I don't think there's any evidence at all 707 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,560 to suggest that vaccines are responsible for the increase 708 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:33,560 in autism. 709 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:34,640 OK. 710 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:36,720 And that's on many levels. 711 00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:38,840 First of all, we don't see it in the epidemiology. 712 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,440 So when we've done the big studies looking 713 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:51,520 at large populations and people with various levels 714 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,720 of vaccine exposure, we are not seeing any relationship 715 00:38:54,720 --> 00:38:57,640 between that vaccine exposure and the development of autism 716 00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:58,760 in children. 717 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,800 We also don't have a molecular rationale for it. 718 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,080 We don't have a mechanistic rationale for it. 719 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:10,360 Like why would a vaccine cause, given at, let's say, 720 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:15,760 18 months or whatever, cause abnormal brain development 721 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:17,680 in utero? 722 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,440 Autism is by and large something that 723 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,640 stems from abnormal brain development 724 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:28,360 during the fetal period and early life. 725 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,400 And vaccines, there's no mechanistic rationale 726 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:36,320 connecting a vaccine to that biological phenomenon. 727 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,640 So it can't explain that. 728 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,920 It can't really explain the timing of the increase. 729 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:44,760 Like people say, oh, you have the Marisol. 730 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:49,080 There was some mercury in the vaccines. 731 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:50,040 Well, they took it out. 732 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:53,920 And autism rates kept going up and up. 733 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,480 There's a slight lag there with the vaccine schedule 734 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:01,240 and the safety act and then the increase, I think. 735 00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:03,280 There's a little bit of a lag there. 736 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:04,640 Yeah. 737 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:06,840 When I've looked at the temporal associations, 738 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,800 they just didn't make sense to me. 739 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,200 It doesn't explain why more males are affected than females. 740 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:13,720 Yeah. 741 00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:22,560 You know, why would it disrupt, for example, 742 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,320 this is getting into neuroscience, 743 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,480 but the GABA-ergic system, which is something 744 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,200 seen in autism, it doesn't make sense. 745 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,320 The EI imbalance is the data. 746 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,800 Yeah, the EI imbalance is really central to autism, 747 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,000 exactly, exactly bingo. 748 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:40,760 And that's the motor movements, too. 749 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,120 That explains the motor movements with the indirect pathway 750 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:44,760 of the basal ganglia. 751 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:46,360 That's interesting. 752 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:48,600 And this is going to be a problem, 753 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,200 because autistics, as they get older, 754 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,800 they're going to have a lot of autism in Parkinson's. 755 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,600 And they're going to hit various dementias. 756 00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:58,560 That's going to be a problem. 757 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:02,080 There was just a study that came out looking at. 758 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:02,800 Directly. 759 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:04,000 AJ, you're excellent. 760 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:04,480 Yeah. 761 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:06,480 And I only glanced at it. 762 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,080 I haven't read it. 763 00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:13,080 But for example, people with autism 764 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,160 are at higher risk for seizures. 765 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,760 And that's because of the poor connectivity 766 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,160 in parts of the brain. 767 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,280 Autism is mostly this connectivity problem. 768 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:27,360 And so you have this electrical energy 769 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,960 that can't be dispersed, that isn't going 770 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:31,320 to where it's supposed to go. 771 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,640 If a buildup of excitatory activity, 772 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:38,520 and it results in seizures, I mean, that's a really bad, 773 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:39,560 bad summary of it. 774 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:46,040 But if you have these widespread microstructural 775 00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:48,920 abnormalities in the brain, it stands 776 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:53,920 to reason that there could be an increased risk for degeneration 777 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,400 or late in life neurological problems. 778 00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,040 I would completely believe that. 779 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:00,440 Yeah. 780 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,720 Yeah, I was wondering, as you were explaining the rodent studies 781 00:42:03,720 --> 00:42:07,480 and your other information on the molecular stuff, 782 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:12,280 if you found specific cells underdeveloped or migration 783 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:13,800 problems in your brain. 784 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:15,440 Yeah. 785 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:16,880 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 786 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:18,400 Very, very good question. 787 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,800 The answer is yes. 788 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,440 So I was talking about, for example, 789 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:25,920 the example of general anesthesia. 790 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,120 And by the way, general anesthesia isn't the only thing 791 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:29,000 that I'm concerned about. 792 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:30,600 It just happens to be a focus right now 793 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:34,920 because we're seeing so much plausibility via the animal 794 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:35,760 models. 795 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:40,920 But for example, those are agents that are well known 796 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:46,320 to impair neural migration for those who are directly exposed. 797 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:52,400 So let's say you're a directly exposed neonatal rat 798 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:58,240 or fetal rat who's exposed to these compounds. 799 00:42:58,240 --> 00:43:02,720 We do know for sure that these can impact neural migration 800 00:43:02,720 --> 00:43:03,220 proper. 801 00:43:03,220 --> 00:43:09,120 And they can cause basically, what are they called? 802 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:10,000 Oh my gosh. 803 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:11,000 Oh my god. 804 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:11,800 Blanking. 805 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:13,920 It's too late here in California. 806 00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:17,200 Oh my gosh. 807 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,680 But anyway, they can basically raise the risk for seizures 808 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:22,880 because the neurons end up in the wrong place 809 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:24,560 and can't discharge properly. 810 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:26,560 I'm sorry that I can't remember the scientific term. 811 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:27,920 I'll stop my head. 812 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:37,160 But whether this is happening in the second generation, 813 00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:39,320 the answer is probably yes because we 814 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:44,560 have seen these neurological abnormalities in mouse models. 815 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,400 So there's not enough stuff. 816 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:51,360 We need to do a lot more study to really dig deeper 817 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:54,440 and see and connect all the dots. 818 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,960 UCLA published a paper this year or last year now, I guess, 819 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,600 2024 on the abnormal connectivity with the salience 820 00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:02,720 network. 821 00:44:02,720 --> 00:44:05,560 On six weeks, so humans. 822 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:06,640 OK. 823 00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,440 Salience network is huge in autism. 824 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:11,040 Did I see that paper? 825 00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:15,080 Was it an imaging study? 826 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:16,200 What was it? 827 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:20,680 I think I don't really recall the methods of some of my head. 828 00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:24,160 But it's a very well studied paper. 829 00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:28,800 Lucinda Oudin, she's a pioneer on this salience network 830 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,040 and the insula. 831 00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:32,960 I want to look that up for sure. 832 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:34,320 Yeah, and they were six weeks old. 833 00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,000 And then they followed them up to confirm the autistic diagnosis 834 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,000 later in life. 835 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:41,440 Wow. 836 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,360 They were six weeks old. 837 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,880 But how did they do it if it wasn't imaging? 838 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:46,920 I think it was imaging. 839 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:48,160 But I can't. 840 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:49,720 I don't want to say for sure. 841 00:44:49,720 --> 00:44:50,240 OK. 842 00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:51,320 Oh, I'll have to look it up. 843 00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,000 I'm clueless. 844 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:54,280 I could send it to you. 845 00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:55,000 Yeah. 846 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:56,720 Yeah, I'll look it up. 847 00:44:56,720 --> 00:45:01,200 But one thing that is really seen in quite a number of papers 848 00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:06,600 is this unexplained transcriptional dysregulation 849 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,440 in early brain development. 850 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,640 So they can see that it's happening, 851 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,360 even if it's not caused by a genetic defect. 852 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:20,520 They can see this, basically, abnormal RNA expression. 853 00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:23,360 And this has been seen in several studies. 854 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:24,560 And do they know why? 855 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:26,200 No, they don't know why. 856 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,920 So to me, that's the million dollar question in autism. 857 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,400 Well, what's causing that transcriptional dysregulation 858 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,840 in early brain development? 859 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,400 Are you thinking some sort of environmental signal? 860 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:37,840 Well, that's what I'm saying. 861 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:42,800 It's embedded in the programming of the child 862 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:44,720 via these epigenetic factors. 863 00:45:44,720 --> 00:45:50,960 Now, right, it talks about regulatory factors 864 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:55,960 in the sperm and egg that can have the effect of a mutation 865 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:57,800 without being a mutation. 866 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,600 And those things, I mean, you have very techie people. 867 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,840 I mean, we have one paper that's really outstanding. 868 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,160 And basically, it showed abnormal binding 869 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:11,320 of transcription factors at enhancers 870 00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,760 at autism-related genes. 871 00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:23,800 So those transcription factors basically turned off 872 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:28,600 or on genes in abnormal ways. 873 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:30,200 And I can't really, it's complex. 874 00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:32,120 They found it at many genes. 875 00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,240 And I can't tell you which is which. 876 00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:37,000 But that should be very worrisome, right? 877 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:42,760 If you have abnormal binding of transcription factors, 878 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,640 you're bound to have abnormal expression of the genes 879 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:50,760 and then possibly abnormality in brain development. 880 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:52,800 Yeah, it's just a domino effect. 881 00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:57,120 And those were caused by a general anesthetic exposure. 882 00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:58,920 So yeah, it's complex. 883 00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:02,240 And I didn't know we were going to talk so much science. 884 00:47:02,240 --> 00:47:04,520 But I would have brought it on all my notes 885 00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:07,640 because I always get the genes wrong. 886 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:08,400 I didn't either. 887 00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:11,720 But I'm glad we did because I prefer that. 888 00:47:11,720 --> 00:47:13,400 There's a lot of. 889 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:19,680 Watch my Harvard talk because I think that one will get 890 00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,200 into enough of the details. 891 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:26,080 And a lot of them are centered around proteins 892 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,560 that are responsible for excitation, which 893 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:32,280 would cause the EIM balance even more. 894 00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,800 Excitation and then the GABA being low. 895 00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:40,840 And cellular functioning and synaptic functioning too. 896 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,480 The pre and post-synaptic. 897 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,480 There's a lot of stuff there, which all 898 00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,800 makes sense downstream for the autistic phenotype. 899 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:51,200 Yeah. 900 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:53,520 Yeah, I mean, I think so. 901 00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:54,840 I definitely think so. 902 00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:58,320 These are acting on genes that are associated 903 00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:02,640 with neural development and neural functioning. 904 00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:07,200 Last question, and I'll let you go, I guess. 905 00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:08,360 I bored you to death. 906 00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:10,880 I bored your poor listeners to death. 907 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:12,320 No. 908 00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:16,440 It kind of fits in line with my episode. 909 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:18,600 So I don't think it's a word. 910 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,920 What's the biggest barrier for you and your research right now? 911 00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,000 Or the biggest barrier plural? 912 00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,920 The biggest barrier is dogma. 913 00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:28,600 The biggest barrier is dogma. 914 00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,840 And there's two dogma that are really problematic. 915 00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:35,800 The first dogma is the genetics dogma. 916 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,800 They just have to expand the way they 917 00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,320 think about heritability. 918 00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:43,480 Full stop. 919 00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:44,800 Full stop. 920 00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:48,280 They have to just be willing to ask new questions. 921 00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:52,080 And so far, that field is not willing to move. 922 00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:54,280 And so that's the first dogma problem. 923 00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:59,680 The second dogma problem comes via the neurodiversity movement 924 00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:04,320 because of their fanaticism. 925 00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:07,640 And I will say fanaticism about the idea 926 00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:09,720 that autism is perfectly natural. 927 00:49:09,720 --> 00:49:11,920 And it's just a normal way of being. 928 00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:13,520 And we're just appreciating it now. 929 00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:14,920 We're just noticing it now. 930 00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:16,200 And it just has to be accepted. 931 00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:17,600 And it shouldn't be treated. 932 00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:19,240 And it's not something we should worry about. 933 00:49:19,240 --> 00:49:21,480 And the problem is with society. 934 00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,000 The problem isn't with the brain. 935 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:25,680 That is just dumb. 936 00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:27,760 It's just stupid. 937 00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,240 And while I definitely appreciate efforts 938 00:49:31,240 --> 00:49:35,240 to promote inclusion and support and services, 939 00:49:35,240 --> 00:49:39,920 I'm completely on board 100% with all of that, 940 00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:45,200 we don't have to pretend that autism is just 941 00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:46,320 a variant of normal. 942 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:48,600 We don't have to normalize autism to get there. 943 00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:49,480 We don't. 944 00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:54,080 So those are the two biggest barriers right now. 945 00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:58,920 And I do think there's a third barrier, which is 946 00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:01,960 we were really burned by the vaccine hypothesis. 947 00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,440 And no one wants to make that mistake again. 948 00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:10,400 Nobody wants to start blaming autism on something erroneous. 949 00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:11,200 And I get that. 950 00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,920 So I think people are very ultra cautious about introducing 951 00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:16,640 any new ideas. 952 00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:22,200 The problem is we are now seeing more than 3% of US children 953 00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:23,960 having autism. 954 00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:29,440 And it is a huge, massive national emergency, 955 00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:31,720 beyond national emergency. 956 00:50:31,720 --> 00:50:35,880 So I don't care if you're uncomfortable. 957 00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:39,120 I get that the vaccine hypothesis was debacle. 958 00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:41,840 Like, I get it. 959 00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:43,280 I've been fighting that for a long time. 960 00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:45,680 I've been fighting that battle too. 961 00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:51,400 But we have to roll up our sleeves and do the serious work. 962 00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:55,480 Right now, autism is just an unserious area. 963 00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:56,400 It's just unserious. 964 00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:57,840 It's become silly. 965 00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:01,440 And we have to move away from that in a new direction. 966 00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:02,600 So it's hard. 967 00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:06,080 We're in a very hard place now. 968 00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:09,440 And I just do my best to try to convince people 969 00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:11,400 to think out of the box. 970 00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:12,520 Yeah, thank you for that. 971 00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:14,600 And I can't agree more with you. 972 00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:18,600 Hopefully there will be a little bit of changes 973 00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:22,160 on the direction moving forward. 974 00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:24,120 Well, research. 975 00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:26,880 Let's hope. 976 00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:31,280 Maybe someone will hear this podcast and go, you know. 977 00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:32,520 Genetics is a dead end. 978 00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:34,040 But they're going to go. 979 00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,560 Let's ask some new questions. 980 00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:42,320 Well, Jill, thank you so much. 981 00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:44,400 And oh, you mentioned it earlier. 982 00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:46,760 But how's how give us a couple of ways 983 00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:50,000 that we can contact or look into your research? 984 00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:51,640 And you mentioned your website. 985 00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:55,440 Yeah, the easiest thing is I have a website where I just, 986 00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:59,640 you know, plop down the links to various things I've written 987 00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:02,000 or spoken at. 988 00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:03,320 But it's Jill Escher. 989 00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:07,600 One more J-I-L-L-E-S-C-H-E-R dot com. 990 00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:13,800 And my contact is there, but it's Jill dot Escher at gmail.com. 991 00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:17,560 So yeah. 992 00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:19,800 I'm grateful for the opportunity. 993 00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:23,080 And I really appreciate the fact that you have so much curiosity 994 00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:30,920 about autism etiology and so willing to ask new questions. 995 00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:33,080 That's exactly what we need. 996 00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:36,800 Yeah, it happens some time along this timeline 997 00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:43,200 of the mother, father placenta womb through pregnancy. 998 00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,080 And I'm pretty agreed more. 999 00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:53,960 Yeah, it's a developmental quirk that has an origin, right? 1000 00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:55,640 It's not like random. 1001 00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:59,520 My argument is we have to look for what's originating, 1002 00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,440 you know, these perturbations of development. 1003 00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:04,920 So hopefully we'll get there. 1004 00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:08,200 Hopefully we can have a part two and talk more science. 1005 00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,840 Yeah, I'll be more prepared next time. 1006 00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:15,200 After I haven't read a study for a couple of months, 1007 00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:17,720 you know, the details go to mush. 1008 00:53:17,720 --> 00:53:21,840 But I will definitely, you know, be prepared with much more 1009 00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:23,720 science next time, I promise. 1010 00:53:23,720 --> 00:53:25,400 I was pleased that we went there. 1011 00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:27,400 OK. 1012 00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:27,880 That's great. 1013 00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:29,560 All right. 1014 00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:30,440 Have a good day. 1015 00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:31,440 Thanks, Ryan. 1016 00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:32,040 Appreciate it. 1017 00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:36,800 If you're listening to the podcast 1018 00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:39,880 or listening to the episode, please feel free to leave 1019 00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:42,440 a review or ratings. 1020 00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:46,720 In podcasting, review and ratings are crucial. 1021 00:53:46,720 --> 00:53:49,800 And I very much appreciate your feedback. 1022 00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:56,640 You can contact me on X at RPS 47586 1023 00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:00,160 or click on the hop link so you can have links to all the show 1024 00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:03,640 platforms and contact information. 1025 00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:07,400 You can email me info. 1026 00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:12,360 FromTheSpectrum at gmail.com. 1027 00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:38,760 And thank you for listening to FromTheSpectrum podcast.