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My guest today is Jonathan Mitchell.

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Jonathan is a senior citizen autistic author, autism advocate, and has a blog, Autism Gadfly,

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where he discusses views of autism.

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Jonathan has a strong voice against neurodiversity and autism research.

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He has a checks and balance for autistics that face different challenges in society.

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In his book, The Mewrhythm Bluff about a Middle-aged Autistic can be found on Amazon.

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Please see the show notes for links to Jonathan's work.

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Before we begin the conversation with Jonathan, I couldn't help but notice the amount of challenges

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that Jonathan has struggled with.

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Take note of the biology of the autistic phenotype, of course, has its own sets of problems in life-functioning.

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But what really captured my attention is the amount of problems from the outside in, such

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as the education and the early treatment and employment.

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There's a lifelong history of pressure and implications from the outside.

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This in my opinion is what really holds autistics back.

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It's not so much the challenges of the autistic phenotype, which I am not discounting.

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However, the amount of inability of society to adapt to the certain type of different phenotype

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is the biggest challenge.

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And now my conversation with Jonathan Mitchell.

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Jonathan, why don't we start with you explaining your life story to me and we'll go into when

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you first noticed things were maybe even a little different.

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Well, that goes back as long as I can remember when I was four years old and going to the

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summer school to see if I could get into this kindergarten.

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And I remember my mom telling me, they said you're not ready to go to this private kindergarten.

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And that's probably my earliest memory.

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Of course, my parents noticed something was wrong before I was three years old.

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I guess up until two or two and a half, I had normal developmental milestones.

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And then I either completely stopped talking or mostly stopped talking at about two and

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a half and then recovered my speech between ages four and five.

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And I guess they took me to a neurologist because they had no idea what was wrong with

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me.

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And the neurologist didn't know either because hardly anybody had heard of autism in 1958

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when I was two years old going on three years old.

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So they figured it was like some sort of emotional problem.

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So they sent me to a psychoanalyst and I had regular sessions with her for about 10 years

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or a little more until I was like about 13 and a half.

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And I guess if you want to hear other relevant things, I was a special ed student for most

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of the 60s.

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I went to this special, this private kindergarten that let me in.

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But then my mother didn't like that.

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And she put me in this other kindergarten for my second semester of kindergarten and

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my behavior problems were so bad.

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I was expelled from that kindergarten.

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Then I was in special ed for about eight years.

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Like at 12, I was put in a right, I gave me a try at a mainstream private school that

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I was expelled from there after about half a semester.

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And then when I was 14 in 1969, they put me like in the eighth grade.

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And then I graduated from high school, barely graduated from college.

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And then I had a succession of jobs.

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As I know, you seem to have read a lot of stuff about me as I guess you know, I was

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fired from about 20 jobs, but I worked sporadically from age 24 to 51 and then retired some years

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ago at age 51.

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I don't know what else I can say unless you want to ask something more specific.

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Sure.

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Whenever you were explaining your journey in education and getting expelled and such,

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can you remember some of those challenges that you had?

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Well, you know, I had behavioral problems.

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I lost my temper sometimes and the other kids picked on me and that sort of brought out

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the worst in me and I just get in yelling, you know, fights and stuff with them.

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If I get that at this private school where I was expelled at age 12, and as you probably

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know, I have bad fine motor coordination problems where I can hardly write.

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I can write so that it's pretty legible, but it's very slow and it looks like quote, unquote,

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brain damaged writing quite a bit.

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And also, you know, I've had very few friends and except for some casual dating never really

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had a girlfriend and that beyond.

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And it's been difficult.

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I'm not sure what else I can say.

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So the writing is huge in school too, that we must write and keep up with everything.

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Did you find yourself having problems with just keeping up with the teacher in the classroom,

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the pace of the classroom?

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Well, sometimes my difficulty concentrating and you know, it was hard for me.

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And those were probably just some some things that the other students pointed out and then

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would start the bullying.

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It kind of seemed like.

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And at this point, your parents in the school, they they they didn't think autism at this

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point.

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Well, I like I don't think so, except I guess my mother heard about autism in like the mid

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1960s.

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And I guess she asked, you know, my there, my psychoanalyst was like my therapist at the

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time.

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You know, if I was autistic and then and then, you know, she said no, just that my parents

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will cause these problems somehow and you know, trauma that I had as an infant or toddler.

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And then I guess in 1968, you know, we took a trip back east, you know, for my aunt's

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wedding and you know, for some reason, there was some psychiatrist in New York in 1968,

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child psychiatrist that they thought it like some expertise.

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And though my parents didn't tell me this for many years, I guess she was the first

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one who diagnosed me as being autistic.

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And then, you know, I guess I saw another psychiatrist in Los Angeles to start, you know,

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starting when I was 13 when I finished, you know, my parents didn't like the progress

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I was making with the psychoanalysis.

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So they switched therapists and he I think he also said I was autistic.

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But you know, like they never he never told me my parents never told me them.

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You know, I was 21, you know, I was hoping Ritalin would help me.

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I went to the psychiatrist UCLA who said, Yeah, like what you have six hours like that.

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You know, I tell them this was like in 1977.

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Yeah.

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So the psychoanalyst the view back then was it was apparent or an issue with parental.

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And that was very unfortunate.

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And that's that hinges from that psychoanalytic view.

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They were they're very biased towards that.

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And I'm I imagine your parents that was that was harmful to them to hear that.

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Hopefully they didn't agree with it.

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Well, they I guess they sort of did for a while.

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But I guess they did for a brief time.

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But then I guess I had like a psychological, you know, a psychological assessment, you

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know, where they gave me like IQ tests and, you know, the Bender Gestalt.

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And other, you know, psychometric tests and that indicated, you know, like some sort of

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brain damage.

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And then I guess they thought of me as being neurologically impaired.

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During this time, did you have questions or did you have worries about, you know, something

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about me is different than these other kids?

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Well, not, you know, not not really not that I can really think of.

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I guess I guess I wasn't aware of how bleak the future, you know, would become.

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But I guess it could have been worse.

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You know, I've had some success.

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I worked, graduated college.

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I've worked, you know, worked sporadically, had a few friends was able to get some writing

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done and stuff like that.

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You graduated from UCLA, correct?

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Yeah, well, I went there for the last, I went to Santa Monica Community College for

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my first half of college, then I went to UCLA for two years for my second half of college.

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You know, I transferred the units from SMC and I ended up getting a bachelor's from

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UCLA, like in 1979.

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What was your degree?

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Or what is it?

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Psychology.

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Psychology, okay.

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Bachelor's, bachelor of arts in psychology.

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Okay.

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Do you think that kind of comes from your experience?

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Yeah, well, I thought that maybe I might like to be a psychologist because I, you know,

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had many like 18 years of therapy and I wanted to be like sympathetic and sort of try to

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help solve people's problems.

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And I thought there was some way, you know, that I could find some sort of breakthrough

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for my own problems, but in retrospect, I would have been better off, you know, trying

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to do something else.

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And I guess I didn't, I don't have what it takes, you know, to get a PhD in psychology

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or neuroscience or whatever.

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You're very interested in, is it mirror neurons?

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Do you actively?

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Yeah.

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Well, I was, you know, many, many years ago, but yeah, I read Marco Iacoboni's book about

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mirror neurons and I thought, you know, it might be an answer to my problems, but now

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I'm not, not so sure because, you know, I'm not, I'm not sure if mirror neuron or behind

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the etiology of autism or not.

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But I guess, you know, like, like there's like structural damage, you know, like in

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the frontal area and broke as the area of the brain, you know, like, you know, the premotor

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cortex when mirror neurons exist.

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And as you know, you know, I wrote a novel based on the premise, you know, that if somebody

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could really improve, you know, their mirror neuron functioning, you know, then they could

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become like a poker expert and win a lot of money at poker.

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Yeah, you have an interest outside of your writing in poker, correct?

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Oh, yeah, I read, I do other things and watch some movies on Amazon crime and stuff like

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that.

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Tell me about your experience with the Ritalin.

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I guess I'm.

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Yeah, well, I, the doctor I saw, you know, prescribed it and he sort of said, you know,

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it's a long shot like at your age, it usually doesn't do much good and it probably wouldn't

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help your type of property by prescribing it.

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I tried it didn't seem to work and then I stopped it and you know, there isn't really

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anything more to it than that.

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Okay.

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I guess I was shocked about the timeframe of it.

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If it was modern day, I could see that because that seems to be our first option is psychopharmacology.

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Yeah, well, Ritalin was a popular drug for ADHD like in the 70s and you know, people

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were doing, giving people, you know, medications for various things.

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I guess they, they still give like antipsychotics to autistics to calm them down, but I don't

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think there, there's like a specific autism medication that's been invented yet.

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Yeah, yeah, that's correct.

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I'm not so sure how I feel about the medical field giving antipsychotics to autistics

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either.

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I think it's very concerning.

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After you graduated UCLA, what was your first profession?

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Well, I worked in a warehouse, you know, for about four months and then didn't like that

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and quit, quit after that, you know, loading, you know, merchandise on industrial pallets

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and then I typed prescription labels, you know, for a pharmacy and then I had a bunch

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of day entry jobs where I got fired and then you know, I went to the California State Department

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for rehabilitation and they sent me to the school where they taught me the rudiments

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of medical transcription and then I did, you know, medical transcription off and on for

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about 20 years, I guess.

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And then, you know, I haven't, I haven't worked since.

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Yeah, people, I don't think people understand how difficult autism and employment is.

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There are many, there are many challenges presented in employment, including the social

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communication and interaction aspect.

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It's very hard to navigate that.

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You know, of course, you know, I worked remotely, you know, like for the last nine years I worked

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and that helped a bit but you know, when I was first working, you know, that option

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didn't exist.

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Yeah.

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But then, you know, they developed computers and modems, you know, like where you could,

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you know, like do a lot of jobs, you know, from home.

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But I guess after, you know, the job I had for like nine years ended, you know, I tried

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a couple other jobs and, you know, they either didn't work out or I got fired and I guess

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I got fired, you know, after a day or two days, you know, from my very last medical

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transcription job and then I was getting enough money for my parents as an early inheritance

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and I retired, you know, at 51.

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And, you know, like about, I guess that was like over 17 years ago.

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Yeah.

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Did the employers know of a condition?

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A couple of them did because, you know, I went because, you know, right after, you know,

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I was getting fired from some medical transcription jobs, I joined up with this organization with

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the acronym ADAPT.

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I don't remember what it stood for, but they would get like they would pay part of the

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employees salary, like for the first month or something like that.

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But you had to do like for disabled people that you had to disclose your disability to

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the employer.

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And there was one job, you know, I got where they made an agreement with ADAPT, you know,

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they had for about a month and I got fired from that.

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Then I went to another job and they didn't, and I guess they knew there was something

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a mess and they, but they just wanted to work, they didn't want to work with ADAPT, they

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just wanted to work with me themselves.

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And I had that job for a little over two years and the company went out of business.

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And other than, yeah, I guess it was just in those two instances that I disclosed or

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my disability was disclosed to an employer.

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Other than that, I'm sure they knew something was very wrong with me, but I guess they didn't

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know what.

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Well, it might have been just, they had just assumed get rid of you instead of trying to

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work with you.

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And I don't know how the views and employment and rules and regulations actually laws were

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back then.

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Well, for good, there was no Americans with disabilities act prior to 1990, as you probably

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know, and that was like the first, you know, and then there was an 11 year period before

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that, you know, between, you know, where I worked sporadically from 1979 to 1990.

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And then I guess they had the ADA, but I don't think it really does much good, you know,

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for autistic people, you know, it's better.

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I mean, because there are, I mean, employers are required to give re quote unquote reasonable

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accommodations, you know, to disabled employees.

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But you know, that's like, like ramps, you know, for wheelchair users, you know, braille

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for blind people or, you know, larger or if somebody's just like visually impaired, you

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know, like a larger computer screen, but it doesn't, you know, require employers, you

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know, to put up, you know, with poor behavior from autistic people.

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And this has been upheld in like at least two or three federal court decisions.

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You know, contrary to what people say, oh, that's, you know, employers are just are supposed

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to give you like whatever accommodations you want.

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If you're autistic, they're supposed to structure it for you.

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But you know, I mean, there might be some accommodations for autistics, you know, that

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are legal, you know, like, like if they had sensitivity to light or something like that

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in the room, and like bad, like for less and lighting, you know, which they were sensitive

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to them, they could ask to be put in another room.

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But you know, if an employee makes a lot of mistakes or has poor behavior, you know, employers

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aren't legally required to put up with that.

241
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So I don't really think the ADA or accommodations for autistic people really do much good or

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really an answer.

243
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:32,360
Yeah, yeah, that's well said.

244
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I don't really keep up with the ADA and how they've changed that now.

245
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Do you have any?

246
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:44,040
Do you have any?

247
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:49,480
I've just read about some of these issues because as you may know, I sort of wrote like

248
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a nonfiction book about neurodiversity and and I was, you know, trying to dispute, you

249
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know, like what airy name and if you've heard of him was claiming or, you know, he was claiming

250
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oh that they should have like a social ramp for autistic people analogous to like a ramp,

251
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you know, for wheelchair users.

252
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But you know, there's, you know, there's no legal basis, you know, for that, that statement

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because there have been court decisions where, you know, the employer asked the employee,

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to accommodate, you know, like behavioral issues and and the courts, you know, ruled

255
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it ruled against, you know, the autistic litigants.

256
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:37,760
Yeah.

257
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:47,120
Well, when did you first begin to speak out against these things that's not right in

258
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society?

259
00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:53,120
Things that aren't right in society?

260
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Yes.

261
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,400
For instance, the movement of neurodiversity.

262
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Well, if you if you mean like when I start speaking out against neurodiversity, I guess

263
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it was, you know, like in the earliest days of the internet, you know, list serves.

264
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This is like in the like a little over 20 years ago in the early 2000s, they had these

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very, I mean, I guess the term neurodiversity hadn't been coined yet, but they had had like

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these lists, lists serves in the old days of the internet.

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I forgot their specific names and a lot of people would post a white I want to be cured

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most or all autistics don't want to be cured of society change, we could function as well

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as non autistic people.

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And then I, you know, gotten to some debates and, you know, disputes, you know, with with

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with some of those people that this was maybe around 2000, 2001.

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Like, yes.

273
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Yeah, you're you're you have a strong stance on.

274
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So I read here from Newsweek described you as an extremely controversial voice in the

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autism blogosphere for wanting to cure and discussing the need to consider the longer

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term effects of autism.

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And after I read that wanting a cure doesn't seem controversial to me and wanting to discuss

278
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:30,680
the longer term effects of autism doesn't seem controversial to me either.

279
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In fact, autism research now is shifting towards adult autistics and needing this information

280
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about these long term implications.

281
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:50,800
Well, I'm not, well, I'm not sure if that's a question, but while the Newsweek article

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that it was sort of borderline tabloid journalism where they blew some things out of out of

283
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proportion and wrote some, you know, unfavorable things about me and what I guess, but I guess

284
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:15,520
it did give some balance to both views, but I guess, you know, a cure, yeah, a cure is

285
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:22,320
like a controversial issue because a lot of people don't want it or they they believe

286
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:27,480
it's saying their child or themselves are defective or bad.

287
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So it makes a lot of people angry and, you know, there was an organization can cure autism

288
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now if you remember them that existed, you know, from like 1994 to 2005 before autism

289
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:51,560
speaks bought them out and, you know, the neurodiversity people would rail against can

290
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:58,320
and claim that, you know, their goal was to find, you know, a way to abort autistic fetuses

291
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,960
and that's what a cure and prevention really meant.

292
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There are a lot of people there are a lot of people that for a variety of reasons were

293
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:13,440
opposed this and as you probably know, autism speaks did like a completely 180 from their

294
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position from, you know, like having a finding a cure for autism was like their ultimate

295
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goal and now they go out of their way to say how they're against a cure for autism and

296
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they appointed you get like two neurodiversity extremists, you know, that they're bored

297
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:39,440
of directors one, Stephen short, who said autism is a superpower and Valerie Paradise

298
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:47,360
who said autism isn't a disability, it's a strength.

299
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This is what the controversial issue is in some circles, but I agree it shouldn't be.

300
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,040
Yes, correct.

301
00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:09,280
This is a very delicate subject, I believe, because there are some abilities and superpowers,

302
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:18,560
but for a population, if we just split the autistic population, there are some, I should

303
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:26,560
say many occasions or occurrences that they likely don't have the superpowers or they

304
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:33,920
don't society doesn't allow them to navigate towards their superpowers because I think

305
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:40,800
a lot of society just traps the autistic phenotype and that's one of the things that

306
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:45,680
I want to help remove or at least bring attention to.

307
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:55,200
Yeah, well, I've written about that in an article published in Autism Parenting Magazine

308
00:26:55,200 --> 00:27:03,920
about the male-female ratio and how the neurodiversity people say things that have no scientific

309
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:11,000
basis whatsoever that autism is underestimated and feel females that there might be an actual

310
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,640
two-to-one ratio or other than a four-to-one ratio or some people even go as far as saying

311
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:23,720
they're just as many autistic females as males, and now social camouflage has become sort

312
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:29,800
of a hot issue in autism research and I've been reading about that and hoping to write

313
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:35,960
an article about that someday, but I really quit camouflage and masking in the same categories

314
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,800
as astrology and voodoo.

315
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,160
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

316
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:48,360
I know there isn't, I mean, I believe the four-to-one ratios are genuine and are due

317
00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:55,720
to some either differences in hormones or brain physiology in males or females or the

318
00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:00,960
fact that the female has an extra X chromosome.

319
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:06,360
I'm not sure if the specific is known, but there's been tons of research done on the

320
00:28:06,360 --> 00:28:12,760
female protective effect showing that females have to have like a stronger hit of genetic

321
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:19,280
mutations to become autistic and I guess there have been some other studies.

322
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:28,080
I don't remember the exact specifics that show there's some biological thing that makes

323
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:34,320
males more vulnerable to autism than females, and it's also true in other developmental

324
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:41,000
disabilities like dyslexia, ADHD, stuttering, there's a similar ratio.

325
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,120
Yeah, yeah.

326
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:52,800
It's all very unknown to us, I think, a little bit too much.

327
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:59,400
One of the things that I question with autism research is it needs to go after the cause

328
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:09,400
foremost, and then early diagnosis seems to be important to me just because of the outcome.

329
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:17,960
The earlier one is known to be an autistic, the better the outcome, and then what we briefly

330
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:25,360
discussed a minute ago, or I mentioned about the longer term effects of autism in adults.

331
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:32,280
However, autism research seems to just be, in my opinion, all over the place.

332
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:37,920
There are things that we're sending money to and time and energy, and it doesn't really

333
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:48,560
seem like it has a lot of, it doesn't seem like it has a lot of, I don't know, input

334
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,360
or there's a place for it.

335
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,560
It's just a lot of odd research.

336
00:29:55,560 --> 00:30:00,280
Yeah, well, I guess that's true.

337
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:07,000
I don't understand why autism speaks awarded Lauren Motrin, a half a million dollar research

338
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:11,760
grant, even though I guess that's kind of old news now.

339
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:16,960
You might remember Simon Baron Cohen's group, I think somebody named Godwin, or something

340
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:22,960
that was, she was the lead author of this paper that claimed autistics had superhuman

341
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:29,160
vision and a visual acuity of like 27, the same as birds of prey.

342
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:39,840
Then the study was retracted because it was either an incompetently done study or a hoax.

343
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:44,640
I realized I can't prove it was a hoax, but it wouldn't surprise me.

344
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:45,640
Yeah.

345
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,080
Those birds have two foveas.

346
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:54,400
So I doubt that we can even come close to that.

347
00:30:54,400 --> 00:31:03,120
And you just even mentioning that Motrin, it kind of just highlights what is going on

348
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:04,960
behind the scenes.

349
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:11,040
And if they want to find a cause or a cure, and what their purpose is.

350
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:17,160
Now, our medical paradigm, it's easy to say that we just want to discover prescription

351
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:23,920
medications to treat things, not fix things, but just to treat them.

352
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,040
And that's my concern.

353
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:40,360
Let's talk about your blog where you, you call out autism speaks about the self identifying

354
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:46,960
how they just accept people that just self identify as autistic without even a clinical

355
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:47,960
diagnosis.

356
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:59,040
Well, I'm not sure I remember that that post, you know, I've written hundreds of blog posts

357
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:05,440
and I guess, but I guess most people have in the autism world seem to have that view.

358
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:11,000
Like, yes, autism speaks, you know, sounds familiar.

359
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:16,320
I'm not exactly sure which specific post you refer referring to, but I do seem to remember

360
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:21,760
something like that where they say like, you know, they accept people who identify as being

361
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:22,760
autistic.

362
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:24,880
But that's all I remember.

363
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:25,880
Yeah.

364
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:30,680
They took it or they added it to their mission statements.

365
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:37,840
And I think you were talking about we talked about before, as you know, like they, you

366
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:43,200
know, Steve, like, they were getting a lot of flack about not having any people with

367
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,200
autism on their board of directors and the thing with the cure.

368
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:54,200
And then, and then, you know, Steve Silverman got like this op-ed piece published in Los

369
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,760
Angeles Times about all these issues with autism speaks.

370
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:04,520
And then shortly after that, they did a complete 180.

371
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:12,440
They dropped the words cure and prevention and, you know, global health crisis, you know,

372
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,880
from their mission statements.

373
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:22,080
And they put the two autistics on their book, you know, Stephen Short, you know, who said

374
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:28,520
autism is a superpower and Valerie Paradise who said it isn't a disability and a strength.

375
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:34,400
You know, and she wasn't even diagnosed with autism until she was in her 40s.

376
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:41,080
You know, like many years after her son, you know, was had like an Asperger's diagnosis

377
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:47,880
and I've met her and I don't really understand how she qualifies for an autism diagnosis.

378
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:49,920
But maybe there's an explanation for it.

379
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,200
I don't know.

380
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,640
Huh.

381
00:33:54,640 --> 00:34:01,400
He also wrote about Gates, Einstein and Jefferson, how people just it's easy for them to say,

382
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,320
oh, they're autistic.

383
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:07,720
And it's like they just want to strengthen the group.

384
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,640
It seems like to me without any accuracy.

385
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,440
Well, yeah, yeah, that was one of my earlier articles.

386
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,760
Like, yeah, it's been about 20 years, you know, since I wrote that.

387
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:25,960
And then I guess it was sort of self published on my website and this guy who heard me on

388
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:31,800
the radio made made for me in about 2008 and they used to, you know, get a lot of traffic

389
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:37,640
and you know, it was high up a few like type Gates autistic into Google or other search

390
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:50,320
engines that came up very high for a long time, but no more.

391
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:56,920
To me, it's like we open up this group of neurodiversity and then people can just say

392
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,080
that they're neurodiverse.

393
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:03,840
And then there's and then that's where it kind of stops.

394
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:11,400
Maybe people just like to say, oh, that's just my ADHD or oh, that's just my autism.

395
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:22,200
And they want to identify as something maybe to help them manage any type of conflict or

396
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,600
troubles that they are going through.

397
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:29,880
Yeah, I guess that's a fair assessment.

398
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:34,480
I don't know, because society doesn't really know what to do with it after that.

399
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,680
And plus, we love to label people.

400
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:38,680
That's what we like to do.

401
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:49,680
We like to subordinate people and just call it that.

402
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:56,120
What led to the book, the mood rhythm bluffs?

403
00:35:56,120 --> 00:36:00,400
Well, I have an interest in poker.

404
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,600
And to this day, I still play it.

405
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:11,440
Sometimes I swear that I'll quit, but then I end up, I enjoy it and I've been a losing

406
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:12,440
player.

407
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:20,920
And as we discussed before, I was interested in mirror neurons as like a possible cause

408
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:21,920
of autism.

409
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:30,200
And I was wondering, what if something like super mirror neuron ability, like in they

410
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:36,040
were interested in poker with this, enable them to have like a superpower where they

411
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:41,240
could be like an expert poker player and it's fiction, of course, but that's what really

412
00:36:41,240 --> 00:36:44,320
got me to write the novel.

413
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:50,480
And I've been interested in writing novels and I've written four other novels besides

414
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,320
that one, but they're not published.

415
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,600
You know, the mood rhythm bluff was my second novel.

416
00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:01,200
I'm hoping to get like this follow up of the new rhythm bluff published someday.

417
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,280
I don't know if I ever will.

418
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:10,360
And I don't really care for self publishing novels anymore.

419
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,560
Do you find it hard to kind of promote yourself and market yourself?

420
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,560
Yeah, it's well.

421
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:23,760
It's hard for everyone, but I haven't been considering, you know, I was like an obscure,

422
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:25,840
but I've done fairly well over the years.

423
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:32,400
You know, considering I was basically an obscure blogger, but I was able to get on as

424
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,440
you know, get an NPR Newsweek, you know, things like that.

425
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:42,920
But you know, like the people were more interested in, you know, my idea, my nonfiction, my ideas,

426
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:48,560
you know, like about neurodiversity than, you know, you know, my fiction writing.

427
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:54,600
And yeah, it's very hard for an anti neurodiversity person to get promoted because, you know,

428
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,600
they have so much power.

429
00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:02,000
There are a lot of people that believe in that, you know, they have billionaire patrons

430
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:07,000
like George Soros, they have the whole media, the whole government, most of the private

431
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,800
autism organizations on their side.

432
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,120
So yeah, it's hard to promote yourself.

433
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:17,000
It's sort of like a lone soldier trying to take on the whole Russian army with like a

434
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,800
BB gun or maybe even a peace shooter.

435
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:20,800
Yeah.

436
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:21,800
Yeah.

437
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:22,800
That's what I'll say.

438
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,960
It's a group in or group think, group in, group out.

439
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:35,480
And that's why maybe organizations like Autism Speaks just opened it up to just, it allows

440
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:41,400
them to get their marketing out and get more attention onto them.

441
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:47,200
And then they can get more fundraising and more power.

442
00:38:47,200 --> 00:39:09,160
Perhaps I don't know, but, but Autism Speaks, the organization over, over time is very different.

443
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:13,720
Whenever you get into this mode of writing a novel, and I'm just curious if you have

444
00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:21,320
any, if the symptom of restricted, fixated interest, do you find yourself like that's

445
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,280
the only thing that you want to do?

446
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:25,280
No.

447
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,080
That's something I'm interested in.

448
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,680
Sometimes it's hard for me to sit down and apply myself.

449
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:34,040
Like, you know, my, you know, my disability, though I guess I've gotten a little better

450
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:40,280
as I've gotten older, but you know, I wanted to write an article about social camouflage,

451
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:45,360
but you know, there's a lot of literature to read and I want to really know it well

452
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:49,360
before I end up procrastinating.

453
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:51,760
But hopefully someday I'll write that article.

454
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:56,360
I don't know whether I'll be able to get it published anywhere or not.

455
00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:01,040
What's the name of your second book or the one that you're currently trying to get published?

456
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,040
Oh, oh, my latest one.

457
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:03,960
Yeah.

458
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:05,440
You know, gamma gets girls.

459
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:11,000
You know, it's, it's sort of similar to the MuRhythm Bluff, except, you know, bright,

460
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:15,960
if you read the MuRhythm Bluff, you remember this neuroscientist Bryce Blalock and, you

461
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,720
know, and, you know, this sort of, not exactly a sequel, but a follow-up work instead of,

462
00:40:20,720 --> 00:40:26,920
you know, using the mirror neuron hypothesis of autism, you know, like he deals, you know,

463
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:32,880
with the lack of gamma wave synchronization and they, they not only use transcranial magnetic

464
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:37,200
stimulation, but also this technique that this neuroscience that was inspired by this

465
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:42,080
neuroscientist Yuri Danilov, where he puts some electrodes on the tongue and their nerves

466
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:49,840
that connect to the brain stem, which connects to the various parts of the brain.

467
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:56,720
And I guess it's similar to TMS and I use these in the book, gamma, but it, but that

468
00:40:56,720 --> 00:41:03,040
decided back to, is it makes them, you know, like irresistible to women and then they have

469
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:07,480
some, you know, the two autistic protagonists have, you know, some adventures, you know,

470
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:13,200
in problems based on this newfound popularity, you know, with women and I don't know what

471
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:17,200
else I can say about it, but I don't plan to self publish it.

472
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:21,400
I don't know if any, I'll ever be able to get an agent or get it published.

473
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:22,400
Okay.

474
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:31,200
Yes, your writings, how much, how much of your life do you, do you integrate into these

475
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,400
characters in your books?

476
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:39,960
Quite, you know, their amount, I guess not a hundred percent, but you know, a very high

477
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:44,680
percentage, you know, like, you know, a lot of the protagonists are sort of based on

478
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:45,680
my self.

479
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:51,120
I, you know, a lot of my fiction, you know, I wrote about things, you know, that happened

480
00:41:51,120 --> 00:42:01,760
to me, you know, of course, with some embellishment and yeah, that makes it, that makes it even

481
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:09,560
kind of a more genuine story to me whenever you can, you or anyone can integrate their

482
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:14,720
own personal life and experience and into this other story.

483
00:42:14,720 --> 00:42:22,680
Hopefully it's maybe even empowering or it could give people hope and insight from the

484
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:23,680
outside.

485
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:25,680
I don't know.

486
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:32,760
I have trouble getting exposure in scouts and, you know, I stopped blogging in autism

487
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:33,760
scout fly.

488
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,840
You know, I haven't had as much, you know, publicity.

489
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:45,520
I get requests from people like you and stuff, but I don't get a whole lot.

490
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:54,240
So I'm, you know, not that well known, even though I've had, you know, some big, meagy

491
00:42:54,240 --> 00:43:00,480
exposure like Newsweek, NPR being published in suspect.

492
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:07,880
It's definitely a side on autism.

493
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:11,840
You go up to bat for autism, in my opinion.

494
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:21,160
Well, I'd like to be in the submission with a bath actually, but you know, but I don't

495
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:25,320
think science has really advanced that level yet.

496
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:30,720
And because of, you know, neurodiversity and our government and a lot of other things,

497
00:43:30,720 --> 00:43:36,480
you know, they, they impede advancement into, you know, you know, trying to find causes

498
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,600
and treat, you know, like treatment breakthroughs for autism.

499
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:45,640
So it's in my opinion, at least, you know, it's gotten a lot worse.

500
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:46,640
Yeah.

501
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:53,720
Questioning the purpose of things.

502
00:43:53,720 --> 00:43:58,200
Talk to me about your, your involvement in research.

503
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,200
How did that come about?

504
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:08,360
With well, I, I, maybe you're referring to like being a subject for the Corshain research

505
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:09,360
group.

506
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:10,360
Yes.

507
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,520
I've covered a lot of his work.

508
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:21,840
Well, it started, you know, like, I guess in late 1988, early 1989, you know, when people

509
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:29,800
were starting to analyze, you know, autistic brains with MRI scans and the Corshain group

510
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,280
was sort of at the forefront of that.

511
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:37,360
And then, you know, they had an article published in the New England Journal of Medicine about

512
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:44,080
how they had found, you know, some portions of the cerebellar vermice were smaller in

513
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:48,000
autistics than like an age, you know, matched controls.

514
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:54,360
And then there was a front page story about the, you know, and the LA Times about that.

515
00:44:54,360 --> 00:45:02,280
So I called their group and talked to the, you know, Eric Corshain's wife at the time.

516
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:06,840
And, you know, and I said, are you looking for subjects for MRIs?

517
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:10,640
And, you know, they said, yes, yes, we are.

518
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:15,520
And then, and then, you know, I drove, you know, from Los Angeles to San Diego.

519
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:22,720
It's about a two-hour drive between Los Angeles and San Diego and, you know, where their

520
00:45:22,720 --> 00:45:23,720
group is.

521
00:45:23,720 --> 00:45:29,320
And I had like a couple of MRI scans, you know, of my brain.

522
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:37,600
I guess I participated in some of their revoked, you know, potential studies.

523
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,560
But then, you know, I wasn't sure how much they could help.

524
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:45,240
And I tried to ask for some results of something I was in.

525
00:45:45,240 --> 00:45:47,800
And then Corshain never replies.

526
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:53,240
So I just stopped being involved, you know, with their research group.

527
00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:56,240
I'm not sure what else I could say about it.

528
00:45:56,240 --> 00:45:59,840
So you don't know the results of your scans?

529
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,000
Well, just, well, I know that.

530
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:08,200
Like I had like an average, like the, well, globules six and seven of my cerebellar vermice

531
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:13,880
were like about an average size of an autistic.

532
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:16,960
And then there was some other experiment.

533
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:17,960
I don't remember.

534
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:18,960
It's many years ago.

535
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:23,280
So that's then, you know, I just sort of lost contact with them.

536
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:32,560
And then they were sort of interested in maybe having me do, you know, a research for this,

537
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:38,120
you know, a stem cell thing they were involved in, which would require them like grafting

538
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:39,520
some skin for my buttocks.

539
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:45,280
And I guess trying to develop like sort of like an embryological brain from.

540
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:50,600
And, but, you know, I, and I thought about participating in that, but it would, you know,

541
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:55,920
would mean driving to San Diego and maybe having to spend like a few days there.

542
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:59,720
And I just wasn't really interested.

543
00:46:59,720 --> 00:47:04,880
And then there, I was brief, you know, I, you know, there's this group at Caltech that

544
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:11,440
this guy Ralph Adolfs has and I just paid him some of their eye tracking studies, but

545
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:13,880
it wasn't something I was really interested in.

546
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:18,360
So I stopped doing that.

547
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:26,080
You know, other than that, you know, I've really had no involvement in autism research,

548
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:29,560
except in those two instances as a subject and not as a researcher.

549
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:37,640
And that's, I guess that's about the extent of my quote unquote involvement in autism.

550
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,320
Ralph Adolfs is quite the name.

551
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:41,880
And there's heard of him.

552
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:42,880
Yeah.

553
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:43,880
Yeah.

554
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,280
Oh, because, oh, he's just as an interesting name.

555
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:48,280
Yeah.

556
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:55,040
Well, no, I'm very familiar with his work and, and the work from UC San Diego with the

557
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:59,840
trio, I think he actually does pretty good work.

558
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:09,280
Kurchesni or I fell with his name.

559
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:11,400
What's what are next?

560
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:16,600
What's next for you, Jonathan?

561
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:25,200
I guess dropping, dropping dead because I'm, I'm so obese and I'm nearly 69 years old.

562
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:30,240
And so I'm not, I'm not, other than that, I'm not, I'm, I'm not sure.

563
00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:35,800
I guess what I, okay, I guess what I hope is the very next thing is that I'll be able

564
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:41,240
to write, you know, that article, you know, debunking, you know, social camouflage and

565
00:48:41,240 --> 00:48:47,800
masking, you know, that neurodiversity, you know, writes about and I've read enough to

566
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:52,000
see that it's, you know, basically junk science.

567
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:58,040
And I hope to write an article about that someday.

568
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:04,440
And I, and I'd like to write another novel or, you know, other than that, I guess I,

569
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:06,280
you know, that's about it.

570
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:09,520
I guess I'm not sure what comes next for me long term.

571
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:16,520
You know, if I, if I, if I live long enough.

572
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:23,240
Some of the research that you hint on is I call click bait.

573
00:49:23,240 --> 00:49:28,320
They publish it just for recognition is my perspective.

574
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:36,040
Well, I, well, there's certain, there's certain, you know, no, no scientific basis for it,

575
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:41,160
but I guess the, the cat queue, they have a new camouflage instrument that's, I guess,

576
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:48,080
been standardized, but what exactly measures and how it can, how it can show, you know,

577
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:53,720
that, that's, you know, somebody can, you know, disguise their autism more successfully.

578
00:49:53,720 --> 00:49:55,400
I, I don't know.

579
00:49:55,400 --> 00:50:01,320
And there, and there have been, and the results in the camouflage area are mixed.

580
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:07,680
You know, there are some studies that don't show a superior ability of women to count

581
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,160
camouflage over men based on that measurement.

582
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:15,360
And they had a lot of other, you know, camouflage before the cat queue was developed.

583
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:20,240
They had some other measurements, you know, but these were just created on the fly and

584
00:50:20,240 --> 00:50:29,160
they weren't validated in any, in any way, you know, very unscientific and or they, you

585
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:36,480
know, had like, had surfed people that they responded to and would advertise in places

586
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:42,640
where, you know, they could attract, you know, like women who were like diagnosed and, you

587
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:47,280
know, in middle age, allegedly, and, you know, they were the participants in a lot of the

588
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:48,280
search.

589
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:52,960
Yeah, there's a lot of pro and other than Eric Fombone's article, like he wrote it,

590
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:58,880
or I guess an editorial in molecular psychiatry, I, I haven't been able to find any published

591
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:02,560
anti masking cat camouflage article.

592
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:07,600
And if there's one in the popular press, I'm not aware of this.

593
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:13,280
It has a lot of traction and things like that do have a lot of traction because that's what

594
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,760
people can understand with autism.

595
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:22,120
They understand some of the autistic phenotype and it makes sense to them.

596
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:27,800
And my opinion is the things that make sense to others delay public and professionals and

597
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:38,160
researchers, then they get hitched on to that and they won't expand beyond that.

598
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:45,160
Now with the social camouflaging, I guess I can see that navigating the social world

599
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:52,600
is very demanding, especially for autism with the excitation and inhibition imbalance.

600
00:51:52,600 --> 00:52:00,600
And all of that metabolic demand, maybe they are trying to highlight that.

601
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,360
And it just takes a lot to kind of fit in.

602
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,480
There's a lot of social pressures to fit in.

603
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:10,480
I don't know.

604
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:23,920
I don't either.

605
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:30,280
What's one thing you would like to know about autism that isn't known?

606
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:37,280
Well, what causes it, at least in some specific situations?

607
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:51,360
And I'm trying to think of, yeah, I guess, you know, knowing how it could be legitimately

608
00:52:51,360 --> 00:53:00,120
treated because I don't really believe there are any legitimate good treatments for autism.

609
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,640
Yeah.

610
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:09,400
I would question if there's a medication or a shot, dare I would say a shot, but that

611
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:13,840
would be something that would be explored.

612
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:21,000
I don't think those are the answers.

613
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:25,480
Is there anything else that you want to cover or talk about before I let you go?

614
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:26,720
That's what I can think of.

615
00:53:26,720 --> 00:53:31,360
I guess we've talked about an hour, so I think you have enough for a good podcast.

616
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:35,760
And I hope your listeners like what I have to say.

617
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:39,240
And I thank you for having me on your podcast.

618
00:53:39,240 --> 00:53:41,800
Yeah, Jonathan, I appreciate this.

619
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:46,680
This all came out pretty quick.

620
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,680
So we just kind of did this in the last couple of days.

621
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:54,200
I was really drawn to your ex account, especially your ex name.

622
00:53:54,200 --> 00:54:01,560
I'm very active with now and my new handle is something pretty new.

623
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:02,560
Yeah, yeah.

624
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:04,480
Why don't you share that with us?

625
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:09,480
I tweet anti-ND with loud hands.

626
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:16,040
I appreciate that because you may be familiar like Julia Baskin, who's a neurodiversity

627
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:21,400
big neurodiversity proponent, I think wrote this book called Loud Hands because supposedly

628
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:27,720
she was an ABA as a child and the therapist would say quiet hands like when she moved

629
00:54:27,720 --> 00:54:28,720
her hands.

630
00:54:28,720 --> 00:54:33,600
So I sort of took it from that.

631
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:37,880
We didn't talk about ABA, but I question that as well.

632
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:41,520
The next time maybe.

633
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:44,200
Yeah, yeah.

634
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:49,240
I will be looking out for your work, your newest writings.

635
00:54:49,240 --> 00:54:58,800
And good luck on the book, and we will interact on X maybe some more about especially about

636
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:01,240
the cause of autism.

637
00:55:01,240 --> 00:55:03,120
Okay.

638
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:07,880
Jonathan, thank you for joining and your story is incredible.

639
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:11,680
Yeah, thank you.

640
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:16,920
If you are listening to the podcast, please feel free to leave a review or a rating.

641
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:25,200
In podcasting reviews, ratings and downloads are huge and I very much appreciate your feedback.

642
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:35,360
You can contact me on X at RPS 47586 for any discussion about autism.

643
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:40,040
I'm always happy to discuss autism on that platform.

644
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:48,880
You can email me at info.fromthespectrum at gmail.com.

645
00:55:48,880 --> 00:56:10,840
And thank you for listening to From the Spectrum podcast.