1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,760
Welcome to From the Spectrum Podcast. This is a podcast about autism. It is my

2
00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:18,120
goal to explain what is autism. I intend to use a mixture of scientific literature,

3
00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:26,280
personal experience, and opinion. With opinion, I will explain why I feel the

4
00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:33,800
way I do and give examples. I will provide links to various references for each episode.

5
00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:43,000
For each episode, we will discuss various aspects of autism. The From the Spectrum

6
00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:50,400
podcast will mostly avoid causes of autism, and I will try avoiding the increases of

7
00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:57,760
diagnoses of late. This is like playing tug of war with barbed wire, and I don't think I want to

8
00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:05,640
travel down that path. For today's episode, we will spend time discussing symptoms of criteria

9
00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:16,200
A from the DSM-5-TR. Remember episode one, these symptoms are crude and it tends to capture the

10
00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:25,120
spectrum. In addition, I will provide personal examples, observations of others, and dialogue

11
00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:33,800
from others. Remember, these symptoms are not exhaustive, neither by the DSM or the ones I

12
00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:42,680
provide. Lastly, like reviewing criteria B, some of the word selection here makes it sound like

13
00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:51,920
autistics need changed and moded to fit an acceptable phenotype. And to that, I want to say,

14
00:01:51,920 --> 00:02:01,200
at times parsing this out is challenging because we are all unique and have a capacity for superpowers.

15
00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:15,480
In other words, our behaviors and interests might not be acceptable to all. And now, A1, deficits

16
00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:24,160
and social, emotional, reciprocity, in other words, back and forth. Ranging, for example,

17
00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:33,280
from abnormal, abnormal in quotations here, abnormal social approach and failure of normal

18
00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:43,240
back and forth conversation. Two, reduced sharing of interest, emotions or effect. To

19
00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:55,240
failure to initiate or respond to social interactions. Okay, first, are you interesting? Do you see

20
00:02:55,240 --> 00:03:03,920
the things we see? Do you have a wonderful ability to become captivated by a range of

21
00:03:03,920 --> 00:03:14,120
whatever we are interested in? Do you have that ability? Please don't limit another person or force

22
00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:21,800
them to do things that you think they ought to do so it eases whatever conflicting response you have

23
00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:32,320
to the situation. Remember, some components from criteria B, those unique abilities, we can call

24
00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:41,920
superpowers. I want to qualify my comment. I want to qualify it because humans in our internal

25
00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:54,120
states are all on spectrums. I want you to say, don't change people just because. Help them become

26
00:03:54,120 --> 00:04:04,000
them. Help them to understand their abilities and themselves as they are created, not as you think

27
00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:13,280
they should be. Please check out Simon Baron Cohen and Temple Grandin on how to cultivate

28
00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:23,240
autistic's incredible gifts. Because I am on this topic now, yes, Simon Baron Cohen and the actor

29
00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:33,160
Sasha Baron Cohen are first cousins. Both Simon Baron Cohen and Temple Grandin, who is also autistic,

30
00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:44,400
have a lifelong work of doing great things for autism. We know speech and language difficulties

31
00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:53,280
align with autism. The why is less interesting to me. Sure things like the sensory processing

32
00:04:53,280 --> 00:05:01,280
problems resulting in becoming overwhelmed, a lack of opportunity to develop social skills,

33
00:05:01,280 --> 00:05:10,360
and a history of bad experiences, the breakage and choppage of speech and language, and so forth.

34
00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:19,600
All of these are possible causes. It is known, autistic's with good speech and language still

35
00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:28,240
have trouble with the back and forth of conversation. But remember, what we are experiencing inside

36
00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:39,160
our brain is captivating and safe. Examples of A1 include, when and how to join a conversation.

37
00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:49,600
This is me. I will walk up to two or more people and I have a purpose. I need something from one or

38
00:05:49,600 --> 00:06:00,680
more of the people. It is challenging and awkward interfering that conversation. To extract what

39
00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:09,440
we need. What I need. At times I can stand there and I suspect because maybe this is what people do,

40
00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:19,800
the others think I'm there to join the conversation. Not likely. At times I can begin dialogue with

41
00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:31,800
myself. Is now good time? Is there a break in the action to jump in? Am I interfering? Maybe I should

42
00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:41,440
just come back. Or most likely I'm thinking and will do. I'll just figure it out myself. People

43
00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:51,120
with autism become very self-sufficient. And often I can miss that opportunity to join the

44
00:06:51,120 --> 00:07:00,320
conversation. It is complicating. When I was younger and still today, ending a phone conversation

45
00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:09,320
is awkward. That standard back and forth. When is it over and when to hang up the phone? Overall,

46
00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:21,200
the phone conversation at times is difficult to know when to talk. Now at 43 it is funny. And I

47
00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:30,640
have experience with others capturing my awkwardness. And it is indeed funny. However, at different

48
00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:40,920
stages, such as as a teenager, it is a different feeling. It is fascinating on different ages,

49
00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:48,160
impact is different. The obvious challenges with back and forth and my typical monotone voice

50
00:07:48,160 --> 00:08:00,720
introduces weird feelings. Another factor is the monotone voice. To me, I am loud. As a child and

51
00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:08,320
adult, I have experience with appraisals calling me monotone. Most of my life, people thought I

52
00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:19,480
said Brian when saying my name. The lack of annunciation and the monotone was a bad combination. I can

53
00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:30,680
say that experience did not help me and my social desires or lack of. As an adult, has gotten much

54
00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:40,920
easier for me. A known complication with socialness and autism is how unpredictable social context

55
00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:49,400
in the world is. Already, we have built in protection whereby the brain is a prediction

56
00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:59,080
machine. See Carl Deiseroth and Lisa Femin Barrett on this work. And the most crucial job of the

57
00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:09,280
brain is keeping us safe. That is a bad combination to the autistic brain. The world around us is

58
00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:19,480
already fast paced. But the unpredictableness of it is it. Now, just imagine multiple people in the

59
00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:27,560
conversation, especially when the normal interaction is occurring. There is a little about that. It

60
00:09:27,560 --> 00:09:37,600
seems fine. Keeping with the sensory processing theme, when multiple people are talking or multiple

61
00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:46,360
conversations are occurring around us, even at normal volumes, sounds begin to blend. Eventually,

62
00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:55,280
the sounds become similar to the late 60s Beatles track. When they started to experiment with blends

63
00:09:55,280 --> 00:10:03,360
of noises and strange objects and instruments while flexing the pan and the speakers, the volume

64
00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:15,040
left or right and the noises going up and down, it's very strange sound blends. That is a lot

65
00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:27,320
going on. And this becomes exhausting. We need breaks. We need social isolation. And why not? They

66
00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:36,240
never fell. So now I negotiate with myself. The unpredictableness and overwhelming sensory inputs

67
00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:45,320
or that calm and exciting safety net of what is extremely interesting going on in my brain at

68
00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:55,160
that time, those extreme fixated interest will always win. The propensity of the so-called

69
00:10:55,160 --> 00:11:07,480
abnormal fixations and intensity is not difficult. This is preferred. Lastly, on this topic, you

70
00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:15,000
can understand that indifference discussed in the first episode. I suspect we get stronger at

71
00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:22,320
blocking out that outside world. When you think of the indifference to pain and temperature or

72
00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:31,800
adverse reaction to certain touch or sounds, well likely that just interfered with what we are

73
00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:41,800
doing inside and that extreme attention to our inner world, that dialogue and extreme interoceptive

74
00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:53,080
capabilities. With a one, remember eco-lelea. It is hard to keep pace with the social back and

75
00:11:53,080 --> 00:12:02,400
forth, especially when we get hitched on the word or phrase and understanding what it means. Now,

76
00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:12,000
imagine multiple people around or in the conversation. That situation or our inner dialogue,

77
00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:22,440
it is not complicated to understand our wise. I have noticed at times when speaking, I put my

78
00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:29,920
hands out as if pushing on a wall. I just simply have my palms out facing away from me and facing

79
00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:37,840
the world. This is me trying to slow down the outside world. It is a barrier so I can remain in

80
00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:47,520
thought and dialogue with hopes. Only hopes my speech and language will not fail. Now, with

81
00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:57,080
speaking, when I am speaking thoughts, I have a propensity to the blockage and broken speech. It is

82
00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:04,560
difficult to merge everything into the same pace. The sensory processing comes at higher rates of

83
00:13:04,560 --> 00:13:15,640
speed. Diceroth says it is a fire hose of information. When reading out loud, this is the

84
00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:23,960
hardest. Reading to myself is already difficult. I transform everything into visual pictures and

85
00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:31,800
movies if the context is interesting enough. So I am processing the visual system. Things like

86
00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:41,400
the retina, the lateral geniculate, the occipital lobe, likely some hippocampal activation for the

87
00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:48,760
memory, and then recruiting my broca and brinecki for the speech and language. Merging that speech

88
00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:57,480
and language with the visual processing of words, the context of the story, and the memory, I still

89
00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:09,480
have to execute the spoken words. That is a lot to think about. More social exhaustion. More needed

90
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:19,400
rest away from the social world. It is not uncommon I get hitched on a word. I know. But at that time,

91
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:28,520
the word looks too close to other words. That is a conundrum. The English language is pretentious

92
00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:39,280
and lazy. For example, if you have a moment, or if you want to do it after the episode, go to

93
00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:51,120
your search bar and type in biweekly. And look at the definition to biweekly. Another note about

94
00:14:51,120 --> 00:15:00,640
social communication and interaction. I have no idea how much you know about a topic and how much

95
00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:14,440
I should provide. In addition, I have no idea if you are even interested. Now, A2. Deficits and

96
00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:25,360
nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction. Ranging, for example, from poorly

97
00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:34,120
integrated verbal and nonverbal communication to abnormal in eye contact and body language, or

98
00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:44,040
deficits in understanding and use of gestures. Two, a lack of facial expressions and nonverbal

99
00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:58,680
communication. Two things here. Well, three, that's a lot. But first, we already discussed, are you

100
00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:07,920
interesting? And two, are you trying to mold us into something we are not when evaluating us

101
00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:17,560
against that symptom? With that, I did not say don't help those that have obvious challenges

102
00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:26,280
with communication and things like asking for help and learning how to engage to meet their needs

103
00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:36,040
and wants. Be careful parsing that out. We already discussed the eye contact and the fire hose of

104
00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:47,520
information. For me, eye contact while listening is much easier than when speaking. I want to give

105
00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:58,680
an opinion. ABA therapy is delicate, whereby it is one human teaching another human. I think of

106
00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:08,760
live the Kowski and the more knowledgeable other. But be careful. The ABA therapist is human. All

107
00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:19,200
humans are subjective to their own here and now factors. And those can complicate the behaviorism

108
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:31,560
and the development. I recently heard while speaking about ABA that the goal ought to be to

109
00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:42,360
help the person thrive in their environment, not to treat. You don't treat the autism. You just

110
00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:52,000
help the person thrive in the environment. And I like that. Now with the verbal and nonverbal.

111
00:17:52,000 --> 00:18:00,480
The overarching phenomenon is sustaining the appropriate and quotations, behaviors for

112
00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:13,000
durations. It requires vast mental effort, a complete exhaustion of our metabolic energy. Hopefully,

113
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:21,960
as we are reviewing symptoms, you can understand how the anxiety is tracking alongside here. With

114
00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:31,200
A2 and really all of criteria A, that loss of opportunity to build those social skills. A

115
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:42,560
significant source of our social skills comes from interacting, participating and observing. It is

116
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:50,840
not difficult to understand much of our ability comes from watching others, especially at young

117
00:18:50,840 --> 00:19:05,920
ages. As a child, a teen or adult, people with autism miss this learning source. Think about how

118
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:17,000
your interest, autism or not, provides you comfort. The comfort in that nervous system. You can

119
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:26,440
sustain that topic. If you are speaking about a topic that you enjoy, it's easier. The interaction,

120
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:37,240
the more you have knowledge on the topic, it becomes much easier. With autism, this accelerates

121
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:47,560
those restricted type behaviors and makes something already difficult, like socialness, worse. Another

122
00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:58,600
type of communication, students in class. For me, despite how hard I try, despite how much

123
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:13,240
deliberate effort I exert listening and following along and or while taking notes is always been

124
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:22,480
nearly impossible. Processing the sensations, following along with any visual thinking and keeping

125
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:30,480
up with the listening and note taking is a problem. Also, the challenges with spelling adds to the

126
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:39,480
trouble. I suspect as part of the speech and language problem, spelling is hard. For me,

127
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:48,400
spelling is hard. I simply cannot keep up while listening in a classroom and trying to take

128
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:57,240
notes. However, my listening skills and visualization of the things that I am processing, remember

129
00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:05,880
that accelerated learning explained in the previous episode. This is superior for me. This is a

130
00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:19,440
superpower. And lastly, A3. Deficits in developing, maintaining and understanding relationships.

131
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:30,040
Ranging, for example, from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit various social context to

132
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:39,400
difficulties in sharing imaginative play or in making friends to absence of interest and peers.

133
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:50,520
Other people, the outside world has a tough task with competing against our fixated and energetic

134
00:21:50,520 --> 00:22:02,160
interest in mind. I cannot overstate this. As a child, eight or so, I was playing cops and robbers

135
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:13,640
with a peer. The peer was one year younger. The game was simple. The cop used the plastic handcuffs

136
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:21,680
to arrest the robber and the cop would take them to our make believe jail. I was the robber first

137
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:32,800
and I went to the jail. Easy task. Then we switched roles. The other child, being a child,

138
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:42,640
decided the robber wasn't going to jail and tried to escape. This isn't far off from child's play.

139
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:52,400
However, for me, that wasn't the rules and I got overwhelmed. How difficult was it to follow the

140
00:22:52,400 --> 00:23:01,120
rules of the game? The plastic toys broke for my inability to understand it was just imaginative

141
00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:11,560
play. I broke the toys. I broke the handcuffs while attached to the other child. I was trying to move

142
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:21,600
him to the jail area and was not budging from the simple rules. Fits like this was common. Another

143
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:31,480
example, in the 80s and 90s, the video games kind of emerged and took off. They were common for us.

144
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:41,800
I remember we played a lot of sports games. At that point, I could interact with children around my

145
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:49,280
neighborhood. We were fairly close. We would play sports games outside and inside on the video games.

146
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:59,240
I remember if my character was doing too good, if it was unrealistic, such as a baseball player

147
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:07,240
getting, let's say, 12 straight hits, he went 12 for his last 12, I would blow up. That couldn't

148
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:15,520
possibly be. That would throw me into fits and tantrums. I had troubles with maintaining the

149
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:25,160
video games and being able to interact on things like that. If you think about children at 8, 9, 10,

150
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:33,320
11, 12 even, and they have a character that they're controlling and this character is doing

151
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:42,440
unbelievably well. I think most children would capture that and enjoy that and try to maintain

152
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:49,960
that, keep that up. Me, on the other hand, I would take control of it and deliberately, let's say,

153
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:57,960
for the baseball player, make outs. I would get him out to regulate his, let's say, batting average

154
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:07,560
to a realistic range. That is what I preferred. I didn't want to have the character over-succeed

155
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:15,120
and make it unrealistic. I just couldn't understand that. And if you would think about how other

156
00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:24,040
children would interact with that, that was tough. It presented a lot of problems with my

157
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:34,200
social interaction even, even with people I was close to at the time. Also as a child and like

158
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:41,480
the telephone problem, I have a history of being made fun of. But we should normalize this in a way.

159
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:51,240
Maybe as a child and teen, that is common situation. And maybe those pointing it out had a high

160
00:25:51,240 --> 00:26:00,360
affinity for wanting that recognition, wanting to be known as the funny one. That I can understand.

161
00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:11,240
As a child and still today, people can't interrupt or finish what I'm saying. If it is my

162
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:20,200
topic, I suspect maybe they are having a hard time keeping up. So there's some interruption. But

163
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:27,720
mostly, the trouble with formulating the thoughts into speech and language are broken. From the

164
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:39,800
previous episode, the CNT NAP2 gene is a common factor for speech and language. Now, a complete

165
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:46,920
contrast from what we were previously discussing. As I have aged, I have found myself severely

166
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:52,840
touched and moved with hearing things from others, such as in psychotherapy practice. I

167
00:26:52,840 --> 00:27:04,360
genuinely care and can experience empathy. A lack of empathy from autistics is a misnomer. Look

168
00:27:04,360 --> 00:27:14,280
for some links covering this. Empathy appears to be a general description. I don't know if this is a

169
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:24,520
good thing or confusing thing to break empathy down into several subtypes. Does this add to the

170
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:35,720
challenges of the human language? I'm not sure. However, with empathy, two subtypes, emotional

171
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:45,160
empathy and cognitive empathy. Emotional empathy is the ability to share another person's feelings.

172
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:55,160
And cognitive empathy is the capacity to understand such feelings. Now, with autism,

173
00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:04,920
people with autism have a high ability for the emotional empathy and a low ability for the

174
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:17,560
cognitive empathy. And I can attest to this. I can understand this. Regardless of the subtypes,

175
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:24,760
scientists and humans, we like to break things down and to add to the language and definitions,

176
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:37,720
add more nouns, etc. So empathy has subtypes. Also later in my life, over the past five to

177
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:44,040
six years, I can find myself not bothered by seemingly small talk from strangers.

178
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:54,200
What helps is knowing these are short time scales. And I have an out. Knowing that this

179
00:28:54,200 --> 00:29:01,400
is going to come to complete stop. And I will be able to move on. It's crucial.

180
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:10,360
To normalize this, I can't say I have a consistent deep relationship or friends.

181
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:17,640
Emotional or romantic relationships are extremely challenging and non existing.

182
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:28,600
I think those brief bouts of interaction, I do get supplements that void in my life.

183
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:34,440
Those little acute conversations act as supplements for those voids.

184
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,200
And before we end today, I want to review other symptoms.

185
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:49,480
Often it appears we are not paying attention. Not true. Our inner world is just safe.

186
00:29:50,840 --> 00:30:03,240
We can still listen. Eyes, our vision, ears, or auditory. We are often passive in the passive

187
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:13,160
assertive spectrum. If assessed, this will likely be caught. This manifests from we don't persuade,

188
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:19,640
manipulate, or care much about your decisions. They're your decisions.

189
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:28,440
Often, at least a couple of times a week, and I've done this for decades, I wonder

190
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:35,640
how many hundreds of decisions we make per day. It's wild.

191
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:45,640
We give a perception of being rude or aggressive. Remember those items we covered about opportunity

192
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:53,000
and being direct. We have no gray areas. We see the objectives. Let's just get to it

193
00:30:53,000 --> 00:31:04,680
while communicating. Also, marketing ourselves and talking about ourselves is awkward.

194
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:11,000
I never understood why a job interview would ask me why I'm a good candidate.

195
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:19,800
This is the worst possible question. Pull the answers of the candidates to know why this is

196
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:28,280
a bad question. We are often awkward in those interviews too. We don't do interviews well.

197
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:37,320
Before we end, I have a correction. Last episode, I said Leo Kanner published in pathology.

198
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,720
It is actually published in Nervous Child.

199
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:52,440
Leo's publishing falls in the pathology section of Nervous Child.

200
00:31:54,920 --> 00:32:01,720
As we wrap up today's episode on criteria A, I ask you to understand how these symptoms

201
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:10,040
implicate our ability to socialize and build and maintain relationships. Also, how much criteria B

202
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:19,160
is a factor. It is okay to have criteria B. It is okay to live like B movie.

203
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:27,160
If you have questions, comments, concerns, criticism, or you just want to reach out,

204
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:40,040
please do. I would enjoy your conversation. You can email me at info.fromthespectrum.com.

205
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:55,960
Thank you for listening to From the Spectrum podcast.