1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,880 Welcome to Making Data Matter, 2 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:04,220 where we have conversations about data, 3 00:00:04,220 --> 00:00:06,600 leadership at mission-driven organizations 4 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:09,240 with practical insights into the intersection 5 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,580 of nonprofit mission strategy and data. 6 00:00:12,580 --> 00:00:14,880 I'm your host, Sawyer Nyquist. 7 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:16,680 And I'm your cohost, Troy Dewek. 8 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:19,840 And today we are joined by guest, Josh Burns. 9 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:22,280 Josh, welcome to the show. 10 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:24,840 Thanks for having me, Troy and Sawyer, appreciate it. 11 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:26,120 Looking forward to it. 12 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:28,640 Yeah, and Josh, for folks just meeting you 13 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:30,960 for the first time, give us a little background 14 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:32,840 on who you are and what you do. 15 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:33,680 Sure, yeah. 16 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:35,920 So my name's Josh. 17 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,560 My family and I live here in the city of Chicago. 18 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,200 Been here since, can't moved here for school in 06. 19 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:45,760 Been here ever since, pretty much. 20 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:50,760 And so my, that's, you know, I'm a dad, husband by day. 21 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:55,600 And that's, you know, the most important thing. 22 00:00:55,600 --> 00:01:00,600 And then I also run a digital marketing agency 23 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:01,880 for nonprofits. 24 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:06,560 We focus on creating digital fundraising growth campaigns 25 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,840 for mission-driven organizations and nonprofits 26 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,540 to help them increase their impact. 27 00:01:12,540 --> 00:01:17,360 So yeah, I love all things, digital marketing, 28 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:21,080 storytelling, and using data to make 29 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:23,400 those types of decisions, so. 30 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,960 All right, so I'm gonna start here with maybe a naive 31 00:01:27,960 --> 00:01:28,800 or stupid question. 32 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:33,160 So tell me this, why do nonprofits need marketing? 33 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,000 Because I guess when I think about marketing, 34 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:37,140 and I'm not a marketer, I'm a data nerd, 35 00:01:37,140 --> 00:01:41,820 so I think about, you know, Pepsi and Nike and Apple 36 00:01:41,820 --> 00:01:44,200 who are selling products, and so they're trying 37 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,720 to get marketing out for their products. 38 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:47,640 But tell me about a nonprofit. 39 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,960 Why does a nonprofit need to think about marketing? 40 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:52,600 Sure, yeah, that's a great question. 41 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:54,400 I like the way you phrased it the second time. 42 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:56,600 Why do nonprofits need to think about marketing? 43 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:01,240 Because I believe all organizations, all nonprofits 44 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:03,440 are marketing themselves all the time, right? 45 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:05,820 It's just a matter of like how intentional they are 46 00:02:05,820 --> 00:02:07,880 and how they're thinking about it. 47 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:09,920 And really at the end of the day, 48 00:02:09,920 --> 00:02:12,480 marketing is storytelling. 49 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:17,480 It's rooted in what the story is of your organization 50 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:18,920 and how you're telling it. 51 00:02:18,920 --> 00:02:23,920 And so, you know, if you talk to any person 52 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,420 working in nonprofit, I have been one of those 53 00:02:28,420 --> 00:02:32,960 for many years before I launched our agency. 54 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,120 I was in nonprofit work for about 10 years. 55 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:40,280 And so if you talk to anyone in that sector 56 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,960 and those organizations, you will almost always 57 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,440 find yourself coming back to or hearing about 58 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:53,440 the limited resources, the limited time, money, capacity 59 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,840 that exists in those types of organizations. 60 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:04,800 And I believe mission-driven orgs are doing 61 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,840 some of the most impactful and important work in the world. 62 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:12,760 And so that's why I'm drawn to it. 63 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:17,760 And so if we're doing, if in those organizations, we're doing, 64 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:20,360 whatever the work is, right? 65 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,920 Whether it's anything from teen mentorship to clean water 66 00:03:23,920 --> 00:03:28,920 to humanitarian, international humanitarian aid, 67 00:03:29,460 --> 00:03:31,460 clean food, whatever it is, right? 68 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:37,680 The story of that work needs to be told in a way 69 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,240 that reaches the right people at the right time 70 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:42,540 with the right message. 71 00:03:42,540 --> 00:03:47,540 And so that's why I believe nonprofits need to be thinking 72 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,200 about their marketing and their storytelling. 73 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,960 The first thing I tell people when I start to work 74 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,540 with an organization is everyone in your organization 75 00:03:56,540 --> 00:03:57,800 is a marketer, right? 76 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,040 Whether you have that role, that title, 77 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:04,080 or that specific role or not, every employee, 78 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,240 every team member, even volunteers, right? 79 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:09,700 They're going out and they're gonna have some sort 80 00:04:09,700 --> 00:04:13,080 of conversation with someone in their circles 81 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,160 about the work they're doing. 82 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,820 And so how are they thinking about the work? 83 00:04:18,820 --> 00:04:21,360 How are they thinking about the mission and the vision 84 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,500 and the story that they're telling? 85 00:04:23,500 --> 00:04:28,500 And so at the end of the day, that's how I see that. 86 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,600 And then I love thinking about that in terms 87 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:36,280 of the digital framework and the digital world 88 00:04:36,280 --> 00:04:39,040 and how that's being done online. 89 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:40,560 That's, yeah, a long way. 90 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,320 That's hopefully, you know, that's a long way of saying 91 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,160 every nonprofit should be thinking about it. 92 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,840 Now, when you say there's just a story we're communicating 93 00:04:50,840 --> 00:04:54,200 about the nonprofits vision, who is it that they're trying 94 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:55,080 to communicate to? 95 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:59,240 Is it to like potential donors? 96 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,120 Is it to potential like volunteers? 97 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,440 Is it to potential people who would be servicers 98 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,540 of their mission or their work? 99 00:05:08,540 --> 00:05:10,840 Even just like the audience that might be at play 100 00:05:10,840 --> 00:05:14,160 when an organization is doing marketing. 101 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,880 Yeah, yeah, it could be all of the above, right? 102 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,840 That's, I think one of the first things organizations 103 00:05:19,840 --> 00:05:22,260 need to do is figure out who their target audiences are 104 00:05:22,260 --> 00:05:24,360 for the goals they're trying to achieve. 105 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,440 So even like a step above who that target audience is, 106 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,680 is like, what are the goals you're trying to achieve? 107 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,280 And then from there we can look at, all right, 108 00:05:34,280 --> 00:05:37,640 who are the people or the audiences that we need to talk 109 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,600 to and reach in order to achieve those goals? 110 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:45,480 And so oftentimes it's prospective donors, current donors, 111 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:49,520 lapse donors, talking about data, like those are some, 112 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,720 like you can start to even segment the one audience 113 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:54,140 in those different ways. 114 00:05:54,140 --> 00:05:59,140 You can look at volunteers, program participants. 115 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:01,520 I would say those are like the top, 116 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:03,920 probably typical top three audiences 117 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:08,680 that a nonprofit would look to talk to. 118 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,400 So as you're thinking about telling stories, 119 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,280 the buzzword is data storytelling. 120 00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:19,560 So when you hear that term, what immediately comes to mind 121 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:24,040 as a marketer, someone who's doing digital marketing 122 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:26,680 and looking at some of those digital marketing metrics, 123 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,040 what's data storytelling to you, Josh? 124 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,660 And how do you communicate that out to the nonprofits 125 00:06:31,660 --> 00:06:34,160 that you're working with through your agency? 126 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:35,440 Yeah, it's a great question. 127 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:40,320 I think it depends on the context that we're talking in. 128 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,780 So when we look at digital marketing and fundraising 129 00:06:44,780 --> 00:06:49,780 for an organization, our work tends to span 130 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,480 the entire donor journey or partner journey. 131 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,740 And so that can be everything from the awareness side 132 00:06:56,740 --> 00:07:01,200 of things on paid ads, organic social media, SEO, 133 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:03,840 how are people discovering you for the first time 134 00:07:03,840 --> 00:07:07,460 or becoming aware of you down to that next step, 135 00:07:07,460 --> 00:07:09,840 which is consideration when they're considering 136 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:11,460 your organ, like taking the next step 137 00:07:11,460 --> 00:07:12,960 with your organization. 138 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:17,000 How is your website optimized in order to convert them 139 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,800 to take that next step in that action, 140 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,280 whether that's donations or volunteer signups. 141 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:27,240 And then on the backend, once they've taken that action, 142 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:29,520 how are we pursuing them and following up with them 143 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,680 through email marketing and marketing automation? 144 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,920 And so, yeah, when you say data storytelling, 145 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:38,520 I think you're exactly right. 146 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:44,460 And this is where at least the organizations 147 00:07:44,460 --> 00:07:47,840 that we tend to work with, which tend to fall 148 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,400 between the two to 10 million in annual revenue range, 149 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:55,000 we have organizations that are larger than this, 150 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,040 in the 100 million annual revenue. 151 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,600 But when you're talking like those small 152 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:05,400 to mid-size nonprofits, I think the challenge often is, 153 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:07,120 again, resources are limited. 154 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,360 We only have so much time, so many people. 155 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,600 And so we're just gonna either make decisions 156 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:18,040 based on feelings and what we know, 157 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:23,040 what we think is the reason or the cause for certain things, 158 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,880 or we're only looking at the high level, 159 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,280 quote unquote, vanity metrics, right? 160 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:31,720 Like reach, impressions, things like this. 161 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:34,200 And then we're making decisions based off of that. 162 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:38,720 And so when we partner with organizations, 163 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,720 it's even like talking to their, 164 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,720 if they have a marketing team, digital marketing team, 165 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:46,800 or a person in that role, 166 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,840 it's, when I think of data storytelling, 167 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:54,720 I think of oftentimes, how are you taking the, 168 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,400 first of all, measuring the data, taking it in, 169 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,080 and then, like I've heard you all talk about before, right? 170 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,600 It's the then taking that to leadership 171 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,640 or communicating that to other stakeholders 172 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:10,040 in the organization. 173 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:14,680 And if you hand, typically you hand an executive director 174 00:09:14,680 --> 00:09:19,680 a report that says we got 100,000 impressions 175 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:24,440 and like 10,000 clicks, right? 176 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:29,320 They're most likely not gonna know what to do with that. 177 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:30,280 Or they're gonna just get, 178 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:33,120 it's just gonna like cause a spiral of questions 179 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:37,040 that if you actually are able to craft that story 180 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,880 and that narrative around that data, 181 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:42,680 then you're more quickly gonna be able to advocate 182 00:09:42,680 --> 00:09:44,960 for yourself and your team 183 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:49,520 and be able to make more actionable decisions. 184 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:50,560 Yeah, great point. 185 00:09:50,560 --> 00:09:53,320 And one thing I was gonna ask you about 186 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:57,600 is we often equate this conversion funnel 187 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:59,000 to like a sales funnel, 188 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:01,120 is where you have to start with your prospects 189 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:02,880 and you have to move them through the funnel 190 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:05,640 until the point that they are actually converted 191 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:06,600 into being a donor. 192 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:08,760 And that is a primary audience, 193 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:10,520 I think, at the nonprofit world, 194 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,480 where much of the revenue is going to come 195 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,000 from your donor base. 196 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,720 But many times it's more like a mountain you're climbing. 197 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,400 It's like you've gotta help them get 198 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:23,880 from just being a prospect, someone interested, 199 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:25,600 and you gotta get them to the pinnacle. 200 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:29,240 And that's a tough, difficult road to navigate. 201 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:31,480 And so the audience, while it could be 202 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:35,120 those senior leaders, the executives making decision, 203 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,360 you've gotta craft a story around them. 204 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,680 How have you also seen that donor journey 205 00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:43,800 from say prospect to active donor 206 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:46,720 and the use of data in that journey for them? 207 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,160 Are they part of that audience 208 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,200 in which you're telling a story using data 209 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:52,520 through the marketing materials 210 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:54,800 to help them get to that point 211 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,880 where they're part of your active donor base? 212 00:10:57,880 --> 00:10:59,280 I don't know, any thoughts on that? 213 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,120 It was a question that was coming to mind 214 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:02,360 as you were talking. 215 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:03,840 Yeah, yeah, it's a good question. 216 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:05,760 I think if I understand your question correctly, 217 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:10,760 it's how are we even using the data we have access to 218 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:15,520 and telling a story around it for the potential donor? 219 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:18,040 Yeah, that's a great question. 220 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:23,040 I think that even hits on the programming side 221 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,160 of the organization, right? 222 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,920 Where you're not even necessarily looking 223 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,600 at the back-end marketing data, 224 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:35,000 but it's helping the programming team understand, 225 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,160 listen, data is a way, 226 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,800 like I like to think about donors 227 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:41,280 in a couple different buckets, right? 228 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:43,880 You have like the number-driven donor, 229 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,120 which they're thinking about, 230 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,000 they could be thinking about the finances 231 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,160 of the organization, they could be thinking about 232 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,760 the programming metrics of the organization. 233 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,280 Then you have like the emotional donor, right? 234 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,240 Which like you want to also tell the story 235 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,160 of the impact of the organization through the people, right? 236 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:06,920 And so for those number-driven people, 237 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:08,760 I think, yeah, you bring up a great point. 238 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:10,800 It's looking at, all right, 239 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:14,080 what are our program impact metrics 240 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:18,880 that we want to, that tell the story accurately 241 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:23,000 and most clearly for the work that we're doing? 242 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:28,000 And then, yeah, making that connection for those people. 243 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,360 So yeah, it's definitely not just like, 244 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:36,360 all right, here's the backend marketing data we're seeing. 245 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:41,440 It's, okay, then how is our data flowing the other way, 246 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,520 right, back to our prospective audiences? 247 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:46,640 So I think that's a great point, Troy. 248 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:50,840 Yeah, and even those emotional donors in that audience, 249 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,560 they still want to see some numbers to equate impact 250 00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:54,440 like you were saying. 251 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:56,760 So yeah, great thoughts there. 252 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,480 Josh, you mentioned something earlier about, 253 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,920 I think you used the term vanity metrics 254 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,840 and how maybe sometimes there are just big, 255 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:06,760 high-level numbers, easy numbers 256 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:10,040 that we can kind of conceptualize of impressions or clicks. 257 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:11,760 And I'm curious that you call them vanity metrics. 258 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:13,600 Is that maybe, is there a chance like, 259 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:15,400 those metrics aren't the most useful 260 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,760 or they could lie or lead you in the wrong direction? 261 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:19,480 Or maybe what are some cautions around like, 262 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:21,880 what's the problem with they be looking at certain numbers 263 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:23,200 instead of other numbers? 264 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,800 Yeah, so, and I say vanity metrics, right, 265 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:30,800 because I think historically people have used those metrics 266 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:36,400 to maybe inflate the success of certain things 267 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,320 more than it actually is. 268 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:43,200 So, and I always have to, I'm constantly, you know, 269 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:47,560 asking questions of nonprofits around just like 270 00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:49,320 market research for my own work, right? 271 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,920 Because agencies oftentimes get a bad rap 272 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:56,040 when it comes to like digital marketing specifically, 273 00:13:56,040 --> 00:14:00,440 because it's so easy to just put out like, all right, 274 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,000 we reached half a million people this month 275 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:04,760 through social media. 276 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:09,400 When in reality, that's a fine metric to measure 277 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,200 and it gives us one data point, right? 278 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,400 That like, that our content is being seen by people, 279 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,480 but the next step you have to take, right, 280 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:19,080 is understanding, all right, 281 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:20,760 our content's being seen by people, 282 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,800 but is it driving them to take action, right? 283 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:27,800 Or is it engaging with people? 284 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,920 And so, you know, you kind of have to walk that, 285 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,120 walk those steps down the funnel. 286 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,400 And so, you know, you go quickly from impressions 287 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,280 and reach down to engagement and social media. 288 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,520 Is it getting likes, comments, shares? 289 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,960 And then from there, are we actually driving traffic 290 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:49,080 to the website? 291 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,200 And then from there, it's like, you know, more questions. 292 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:53,960 What's the quality of that traffic? 293 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,280 Is it just anybody is coming to our site? 294 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:02,280 And then, you know, the metric that I love looking at 295 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,360 and because it just tells us so much 296 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,560 about different channels is the bounce rate metric 297 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:10,680 on the website, right? 298 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,680 Because, you know, the bounce rate measures 299 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:15,480 how many people are coming to your site 300 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,360 and then leaving without taking any action. 301 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:23,240 And so, if that bounce rate is astronomically high, 302 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,960 that either tells us that the quality of the traffic 303 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,560 is bad, like the, you know, the people we're sending 304 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,120 to our site are not our target audience 305 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:37,120 or our site is not optimized to convert our target audience 306 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,240 to take the next action, right? 307 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:42,920 So, there's so many paths you can go down there, right? 308 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,880 And that's where experimentation comes into play 309 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,480 and creating hypotheses of like, okay, 310 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:54,480 if we move this button up above the fold on the homepage, 311 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,720 right, meaning they don't have to scroll to see the button, 312 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,960 is that going to decrease the bounce rate? 313 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,960 And is it going to increase our traffic to the give page? 314 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,440 So, yeah, so there's, I don't even remember 315 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,240 your original question, I'm so far down the rabbit hole now. 316 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:12,760 Vanity metrics and like what metrics actually matter. 317 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,240 So, yeah, you get into that. 318 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:19,240 Yeah, yeah, so we always create something 319 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,680 called a growth report for all the organizations 320 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:26,680 we work with and all it tracks is the most essential metrics, 321 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:32,000 meaning if an organization, their top level goal 322 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,080 is to increase donations 20% online, 323 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,880 increase online donations 20%, then, you know, 324 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:41,840 some examples of metrics we would track 325 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,160 in the growth report would be obviously 326 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,640 donation, online donations, we would be tracking 327 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,440 like conversion rate on the donation page 328 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,480 and we would probably be tracking something 329 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:58,480 like average gift value or number of donations made, right? 330 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:02,880 And so to answer your question, yeah, back to your question, 331 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,560 and that doesn't mean we're hiding all those other metrics, 332 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,480 it's just, we don't want to inflate the value 333 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:10,960 of the work we're doing by just telling people 334 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:14,680 we're sending, you know, we're reaching this many 335 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,000 hundreds of thousands of people through social media 336 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:21,560 because then it's like, you know, further down the line, 337 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,160 we get to, you know, a year in 338 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,920 and donations haven't increased at all 339 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,240 and then we're left there with a, 340 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:31,960 they've got a bad taste in their mouth. 341 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:36,240 And so, yeah, so we always, we mainly report 342 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,480 on those bottom of funnel metrics 343 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,520 and then, you know, for our own purposes, 344 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,680 we understand the rest of the funnel as well. 345 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,280 And that requires, the main assumption there 346 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,800 is that you've defined what the desired outcome is 347 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,480 and like what the key goal is and that's, you know, 348 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:55,360 maybe it's donations is probably a core one, 349 00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:56,760 but there might be some other key objectives 350 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:58,520 so that it's not just the impressions, 351 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,560 but we know what action we want people to end up at 352 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:02,640 at the bottom of the funnel 353 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:04,760 and that's what we can keep track of 354 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:06,920 because this shows up in the tutorialized world all the time 355 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,560 where there's so many numbers that you could look at, 356 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,000 so many metrics and measures that you can create 357 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,640 and splatter across dashboards 358 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:17,520 and it just gets really noisy for people 359 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:19,720 trying to consume that information and make sense of it. 360 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,760 And if you have like, hey, here are some clear numbers, 361 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:24,680 this is actually what our clear objective is, 362 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:26,080 we work together to define it. 363 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:27,760 Now we can look at how that needle moves 364 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,040 and did we make progress towards what we care about? 365 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,960 Not just, yeah, busy dashboard. 366 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,280 Yeah, I mean, you know, quick story, 367 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,200 I started working with an organization earlier this year 368 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:39,600 and on the first call, 369 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:44,600 they had their goals defined for 2024 and 2025 370 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:49,360 and I was smiling so big because I was just like, 371 00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:53,440 this is again, like you work with organizations 372 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:54,440 all across the board, 373 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,920 but like an organization of their size, 374 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:01,040 I typically do not see any type of tangible goals in place 375 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,560 and so it was just great to even have like 376 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,400 a baseline of what their expectation was 377 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,320 and this is something we ask every organization is like, 378 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:15,280 what is your expectation for ROI with Spark Collective, 379 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:16,480 the name of our agency? 380 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,080 And so from the out of the gates, right? 381 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,200 It sets the expectation like, all right, 382 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:23,640 here's your expectation 383 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,000 and then that gives us at least a baseline to work with 384 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,680 to say, okay, let's reverse engineer these goals 385 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:31,600 to understand whether or not they're realistic 386 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,000 and with this organization, we actually had to do that 387 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:38,360 and say like, okay, these might be a little too high for, 388 00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:39,880 at least for industry averages 389 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:41,480 that we see on a regular basis. 390 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:46,120 So let's maybe readjust and then we can shoot higher 391 00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:46,960 if we want to. 392 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:48,280 So yeah, that's a great point. 393 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:50,120 And that type of nonprofit is probably gonna have 394 00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:52,760 a lot better experience with a marketing agency 395 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,040 than one that doesn't have goals defined, right? 396 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,000 Like they're probably a lot more likely to get 397 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,360 what they're paying for when they work with an agency. 398 00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:00,960 Absolutely. 399 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,680 I was gonna say that's great that you set those goals. 400 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,760 You can keep coming back to those as that baseline 401 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,480 and it can help keep focus. 402 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,760 But that is my question, Josh. 403 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,600 How do you keep these organizations that you work with 404 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,880 focused on a handful of metrics to say 405 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:25,120 that's what's actually going to give us the insight we need 406 00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:28,200 to drive the actions that we're doing in the org? 407 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,200 Because like Slower was hinting at, 408 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:34,360 we see it with reports where everybody wants a report 409 00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:35,680 on their metric. 410 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:38,800 And next thing you know, you got a hundred plus reports 411 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,800 and dashboards out there collecting dust. 412 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:46,800 And so how do you, as a marketer, keep the leaders 413 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,200 and their organizations focused on a handful of metrics 414 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,360 when they might wanna keep introducing more? 415 00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:55,680 They'll say, well, if we could just have these 10 more 416 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,080 metrics on that one goal we're looking at, 417 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,400 that would give us the flavor text we need 418 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,920 to really know that we're hitting the mark with it. 419 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,280 And that's gonna mean more resources 420 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:07,720 to develop those metrics. 421 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:09,400 So what's your process been? 422 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,040 What's the how part? 423 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,800 Maybe you have another story of what that's been like 424 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:17,480 to keep people from going in all different directions 425 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,800 to get metrics, trying to solve those goals that they set. 426 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:21,840 Oh my goodness. 427 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,320 When you figure that out, Troy, let me know. 428 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:25,840 Because yeah, it's- 429 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,200 That's why we invited you, my friend, come on. 430 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,680 No, it's a great, I think it's a great question 431 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,240 and a challenge that continuously comes up, right? 432 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,640 Even for our own business, right? 433 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,440 You're constantly having to figure out, all right, 434 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,920 what's most essential to focus on? 435 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,560 And then what can we maybe save for later? 436 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,640 Or we can track less frequently, right? 437 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:53,720 Maybe we don't need a monthly report on this. 438 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:55,280 Maybe we need a quarterly report. 439 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,040 Maybe we need a bi-annual report. 440 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,880 I think that's like, first, the approach is like 441 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:03,840 asking questions and understanding 442 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,080 what's the motivation behind you wanting to 443 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,120 have this type of data or these metrics. 444 00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:15,120 And oftentimes it's not necessarily rooted 445 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:21,520 in wanting to improve whatever that high level goal is. 446 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:26,520 It's oftentimes for their own personal context, 447 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,600 which is fine, I get that. 448 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:33,600 But yes, it does have to come back to time, 449 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:34,680 capacity, resources. 450 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,560 And we oftentimes view things as we view, 451 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:39,400 we call it scope. 452 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:44,400 We view scope or resources as like a plate of food, right? 453 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,520 And so you've got a full plate of food right now, all right? 454 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:49,880 If we want to add something else, 455 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,880 we maybe have to reallocate and take something else off. 456 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:58,880 And so that's oftentimes a helpful conversation. 457 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,880 And when these things come up, because you're right, 458 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:06,880 it's, you know, the dashboard starts to get really big. 459 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:11,880 And then, you know, like you said, it's somebody's time. 460 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,400 That's tracking all these metrics and data 461 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:16,880 and creating these reports. 462 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:21,880 And so, yeah, so I think those are like some approaches 463 00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:23,880 that we take to that. 464 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:25,880 That's not just helpful in agency work. 465 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,240 I think that's like just organizationally, right? 466 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,720 If you're a team member inside of an organization, 467 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:35,720 having those conversations to understand scope and capacity. 468 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,640 And yeah, and then again, around frequency, 469 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,880 we send out monthly reports 470 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,360 to the organizations we work with. 471 00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:49,360 But they also have access to these dashboards at any time 472 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,760 that they can go take a look at, right? 473 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,360 And so if they have a question around the metric 474 00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:58,360 or something like we're happy we have those conversations. 475 00:23:58,360 --> 00:24:01,360 But yeah, I think that's the other, you know, 476 00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:05,360 going back to like how agencies have gotten a bad rap is, 477 00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:07,360 you know, we like to be completely transparent 478 00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:09,360 with the data, right? 479 00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:12,360 Because we shouldn't have anything to hide. 480 00:24:12,360 --> 00:24:14,360 If we're doing our jobs right, you know, 481 00:24:14,360 --> 00:24:17,360 so people have access to all of that. 482 00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:21,360 And then we can have those conversations as they come up. 483 00:24:21,360 --> 00:24:24,360 One of the tools that I've used are frameworks that, 484 00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:26,360 I don't know, I probably stole from somebody or adapted, 485 00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:28,360 but it's this idea of there are terminal metrics 486 00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:30,360 and there are decision metrics. 487 00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:32,360 Like a terminal metric would be like revenue. 488 00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:33,360 Like we're tracking revenue. 489 00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:34,360 Why are we tracking revenue? 490 00:24:34,360 --> 00:24:35,360 Because that's the end goal. 491 00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:38,360 Like that's the terminal goal that we wanna keep track of. 492 00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:41,360 And then you might have like maybe one or two 493 00:24:41,360 --> 00:24:43,360 maybe three terminal metrics, 494 00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:44,360 but then everything else needs to be, 495 00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:46,360 the only other thing you track then is like, 496 00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:47,360 you only track decision metrics. 497 00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:50,360 And like that metric has to have a decision tied to it. 498 00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:52,360 When we hit X, we need to, we change Y. 499 00:24:52,360 --> 00:24:55,360 The metrics are tied to specific decisions. 500 00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:58,360 And so I'm curious about drilling into that second one 501 00:24:58,360 --> 00:24:59,360 a little bit. 502 00:24:59,360 --> 00:25:02,360 How do you make decisions around marketing decisions, perhaps, 503 00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:06,360 around data and like specific metrics that might come in? 504 00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:09,360 What are the things that come through from a data standpoint 505 00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:11,360 that would lead to a different decision 506 00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:12,360 from a marketer perspective? 507 00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:13,360 Maybe that's posting schedule, 508 00:25:13,360 --> 00:25:15,360 maybe that's the type of content. 509 00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:17,360 Tell me a little bit about like those decision metrics 510 00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:19,360 that you might keep track of and what those look like. 511 00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:20,360 Sure. 512 00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:21,360 Yeah. 513 00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:24,360 Well, I love that terminal metrics and decision metrics. 514 00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:26,360 I just wrote that down because see, 515 00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:28,360 I told you all before we hopped on here, 516 00:25:28,360 --> 00:25:30,360 I'm probably gonna learn more from you 517 00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:31,360 than you're gonna learn from me. 518 00:25:31,360 --> 00:25:33,360 So yeah, that's great. 519 00:25:33,360 --> 00:25:36,360 The, yeah, the decision metrics, I mean, 520 00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:40,360 it could, there are many that we could look at. 521 00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:43,360 I think one that's that I'm often intrigued by 522 00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:47,360 is conversion rate on a website because it tells you, 523 00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:50,360 it could potentially tell you or give you data 524 00:25:50,360 --> 00:25:53,360 into a few different channels, 525 00:25:53,360 --> 00:25:56,360 or it could lead you in a few different directions 526 00:25:56,360 --> 00:25:57,360 in terms of decisions. 527 00:25:57,360 --> 00:26:00,360 So, you know, if you have a low conversion rate 528 00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:03,360 on your website, it could mean a few different, 529 00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:04,360 like one of a few different things. 530 00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:07,360 It could mean you're not sending enough traffic 531 00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:08,360 to your website. 532 00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:11,360 It could mean, again, you're sending the wrong, 533 00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:13,360 bad quality of traffic to the website, 534 00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:15,360 or it could mean that your website, 535 00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:18,360 the page isn't optimized properly 536 00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:21,360 for engagement and conversions. 537 00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:24,360 And so that's, I think that's like a big one 538 00:26:24,360 --> 00:26:26,360 that I like looking at. 539 00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:29,360 Another one would be email open rates 540 00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:31,360 and click through rates. 541 00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:34,360 And so, you know, we worked with an organization 542 00:26:34,360 --> 00:26:37,360 at year end and we're still working with them, 543 00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:40,360 but we, you know, we ran their year end campaign, 544 00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:42,360 fundraising campaign last year. 545 00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:46,360 And we looked at, all right, how many, 546 00:26:46,360 --> 00:26:49,360 what's the frequency of emails that you all have sent out 547 00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:52,360 in the past between November and December? 548 00:26:52,360 --> 00:26:53,360 In the past, they had sent out, 549 00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:57,360 I believe it was 11 emails over the course of that time. 550 00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:02,360 And I said, okay, what if we almost doubled that? 551 00:27:02,360 --> 00:27:04,360 And let's see what happens. 552 00:27:04,360 --> 00:27:09,360 And so we increased that frequency rate, 553 00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:13,360 the email volume by 90%. 554 00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:15,360 And they saw an increase, 555 00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:20,360 we saw an increase in their open rate by 14% over that time. 556 00:27:20,360 --> 00:27:22,360 And which is counterintuitive, right? 557 00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:24,360 Like you think we send out more emails, 558 00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:26,360 we're gonna get less people opening them. 559 00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:28,360 I wouldn't backfire too, yeah. 560 00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:30,360 Yeah, exactly, right? 561 00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:33,360 And that's where like you have to be willing to adjust 562 00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:37,360 and pivot as you're gathering more data, right? 563 00:27:37,360 --> 00:27:40,360 If we would have seen the open rate just plummet, 564 00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:44,360 then we make a decision to pivot. 565 00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:46,360 But yeah, so, you know, 566 00:27:46,360 --> 00:27:50,360 we actually saw the open rate and the click rate increase 567 00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:51,360 over that time. 568 00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:56,360 And we saw that the amount of donations from email 569 00:27:56,360 --> 00:27:57,360 increased during that time. 570 00:27:57,360 --> 00:27:59,360 So yeah, so I think, 571 00:27:59,360 --> 00:28:03,360 and this is another thing I would encourage people 572 00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:08,360 in nonprofits or just organizations in general to do. 573 00:28:08,360 --> 00:28:11,360 And I find myself not doing this enough, 574 00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:14,360 but being willing to experiment and learn. 575 00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:19,360 And that's going to involve a certain amount of risk. 576 00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:23,360 But I think it's the only way forward, 577 00:28:23,360 --> 00:28:24,360 especially in digital, 578 00:28:24,360 --> 00:28:27,360 because things are changing so often and so quickly. 579 00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:32,360 And so if there's not some sort of built-in time 580 00:28:32,360 --> 00:28:37,360 in your role to try things and experiment with things, 581 00:28:37,360 --> 00:28:40,360 and you know, in nonprofits, 582 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,360 this is probably one of the hardest environments 583 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,360 to do this in because again, 584 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,360 we're all strapped for time. 585 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,360 And then we have people around us or leaders 586 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:56,360 that are so focused on making sure 587 00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,360 we're hitting our revenue goals and our donation goals. 588 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,360 And so if we try something new 589 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,360 or pivot from what we know has always worked, 590 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,360 then what's going to happen? We don't know. 591 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,360 But I think starting out in small ways 592 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:19,360 in those things and then trying new things all the time, 593 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:25,360 I think it's actually going to help you in the long run. 594 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,360 So yeah, so those are, I think, 595 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,360 when it comes to decision metrics, 596 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,360 I could talk for hours on how you can make decisions 597 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,360 based on certain data points, 598 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,360 but those are a couple that come to mind. 599 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,360 Yeah, this may not work, 600 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:44,360 or some of the scariest words or the most exciting words 601 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,360 you could hear, like, we're going to try something, 602 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:47,360 and this may not work. 603 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,360 And that can feel kind of reckless, 604 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,360 especially if you're in a conservative financial situation 605 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,360 or at least a mindset of we can't waste resources 606 00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,360 and we're scarce in resources. 607 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,360 But it's also where the door opens up the most 608 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,360 for opportunities and we're trying something that may not work. 609 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,360 And that's, in order to really move the needle on things, 610 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,360 that's often, that's always what's required 611 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,360 to really make change is we're trying something new and different. 612 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,360 Can I pivot a little bit to talk about, 613 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:20,360 or to ask you about maybe some of the more nitty-gritty technical stuff? 614 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,360 So what are the tools you use to work with data? 615 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:25,360 Where does data come from this? 616 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,360 You talked about conversion rates and click-throughs 617 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:32,360 and tracking people on their journey with a marketing campaign. 618 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,360 What does that even look like from a practical tools perspective for you? 619 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,360 Yeah, yeah, it's a good question. 620 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,360 And it's, you know, I love looking at this, again, 621 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,360 for the size of organizations we typically work with 622 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:50,360 because typically, you know, I'll talk to someone in a nonprofit 623 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:54,360 and they've either got Google Analytics installed 624 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,360 and they're not paying attention to it or it's not even there at all. 625 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,360 And my question is always like, 626 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,360 who built your website and didn't install some sort of tracking? 627 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,360 Like, it's mind blowing to me. 628 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:09,360 But it's... 629 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,360 Uncle Sam built the website and he did it for me. 630 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:13,360 Yeah, exactly. 631 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,360 Uncle Steve built the website. 632 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,360 Yeah, that's right. 633 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,360 Yeah, yeah, no, it's no knock. 634 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,360 Like, I get it. 635 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:22,360 You don't know what you don't know. 636 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:28,360 So, yeah, so I think, you know, the basics are Google Analytics, 637 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,360 having that installed, looking at, you know, 638 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,360 whatever social media channels you're using, 639 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:39,360 whether that's Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, 640 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,360 and just the built-in analytics that are there, 641 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,360 I would say just start there. 642 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:48,360 And so, and then, you know, you obviously have metrics built into 643 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,360 email marketing platforms as well. 644 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,360 But, yeah, I think, you know, 645 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,360 digging into more of the nitty gritty of Google Analytics, 646 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:03,360 it's like thinking through things like internal traffic filters 647 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,360 and understanding that, like, oh, 648 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,360 when everyone in our office goes to the website, 649 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:14,360 that's skewing the data that we're getting out of it, right? 650 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:19,360 Your website visits may not be 100 a week if, you know, 651 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,360 20 of those are your internal traffic. 652 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:27,360 So, so, you know, stuff like that, 653 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,360 that people just don't think about and setting those up, 654 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,360 setting up events and key events in Google Analytics, 655 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,360 or, you know, formerly known as conversion events. 656 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:41,360 And then, you know, being able to look at the end, 657 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,360 that then gives you a whole window, right, 658 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,360 into the donor journey to understand, 659 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:52,360 especially when I would highly encourage people to, 660 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:57,360 like, Google the donation platform that you're using 661 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,360 and ask Google if there's a Google Analytics integration 662 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:05,360 with your donation platform, because, again, 663 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,360 this is mind-blowing to me, but there are donation platforms 664 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,360 out there that, like, don't integrate well. 665 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,360 And unless you're a developer that can get into, like, 666 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,360 the data layer of your website and, you know, start to, 667 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,360 or, like, another simple workaround is just, like, 668 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,360 redirecting people to a thank you page so that that triggers 669 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,360 a conversion event in Google Analytics. 670 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,360 But making sure that those things can talk to each other, 671 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,360 I think, is really important and really helpful. 672 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:38,360 And then the other thing I would say is start using UTM links 673 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,360 and parameters to be able to track inside of Google Analytics 674 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,360 where your website traffic is coming from 675 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:51,360 and then understanding, again, that full journey on the website 676 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:56,360 through to donation or volunteer signups or whatever it may be. 677 00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:01,360 And it's getting, I mean, you all, I would love to, you know, 678 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,360 probably chop it up with you all on this, 679 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,360 because I'd love to hear your thoughts, but, like, 680 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:09,360 obviously third-party data is becoming harder and harder to track, 681 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,360 and it's just going to, like, it's, you know, 682 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,360 eventually just going to become a thing of the past, right? 683 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,360 Like, we're all going to have to go, like, 684 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:21,360 that's one thing that I'm constantly encouraging organizations 685 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,360 to get better at and think about is, like, 686 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:31,360 are we gathering first-party data from people, our target audiences? 687 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:36,360 And, you know, those just a quick, like, third-party data is, like, 688 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,360 you go to a website and then it tracks you around the internet, right? 689 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:40,360 You get ads. 690 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,360 First-party data is, like, I put in my email address into this form, 691 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,360 and I give it to the organization. 692 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,360 So those are things that, you know, 693 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,360 we're constantly thinking about and trying to help organizations think 694 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,360 about because we're not going to be able to track people around the 695 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:55,360 internet forever. 696 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:56,360 So. 697 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:57,360 Yeah. 698 00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,360 And one of those is exponentially more valuable from your organization 699 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,360 standpoint than the other. 700 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:05,360 And so how much are you dependent upon third-party data? 701 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,360 Third-party data is, like, inconsistent and, like, 702 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,360 changing with the tides and can also be really costly, 703 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,360 depending on how you're acquiring that. 704 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:19,360 And first-party data can just be, offer a lot more value in terms of 705 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,360 your control of it and your ability to manipulate, manage, 706 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:23,360 and optimize around it. 707 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,360 So that's a good call-out from a marketing perspective. 708 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:27,360 Josh, this has been great. 709 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:32,360 So where can people go online to find more about you, Spark Collective? 710 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,360 Maybe you stirred up some itches in people as they think about their own 711 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:37,360 marketing, their firm, and what they want to do, 712 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,360 what tools they might kind of use. 713 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,360 But if they want to reach out, say hi to you online or maybe reach out for 714 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,360 help, where can they find you in Spark Collective? 715 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:46,360 Yeah. Yeah. 716 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,360 Well, like I said, I appreciate you all having me on. 717 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,360 Love learning from you all. 718 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,360 And yeah, you all can find me. 719 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:56,360 Ironically, the platform I spend the most time on is LinkedIn these days. 720 00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,360 So yeah, just search for me there, Josh Burns on LinkedIn, 721 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:05,360 or you can go to our website, sparkcollective.net. 722 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:06,360 Excellent. 723 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:07,360 This has been a pleasure, Josh. 724 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,360 Exploring new worlds for Troy and I. 725 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,360 I haven't spent much time in the marketing world and conversion rates and 726 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,360 things like that are a little bit different, but I realized this is, 727 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:19,360 this is core aspect of data and like it's so many data points in that and 728 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:25,360 so crucial to nonprofit organizations and how they function in terms of like 729 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,360 spreading their story and making data matter and be impactful and influential 730 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,360 in what they're doing. 731 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:32,360 So thanks so much for joining us. 732 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,360 It was a pleasure to have you. 733 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:35,360 And that's all folks. 734 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:40,360 Thanks for joining us and we will see you next time on making data matter. 735 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,360 Hey, so you're here again. 736 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,360 During the course of this conversation, we ended up taking a bit of a detour 737 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,360 and went deeper into Troy. 738 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:49,360 Josh is in my background. 739 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:54,360 We all went to the same Bible college and we ended up exploring a little bit 740 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:59,360 of our experience with our current work and our perspective on theology and 741 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:04,360 religion and how that has played a factor in our journey over the last 15 742 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:05,360 years or so. 743 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,360 Some of this conversation didn't quite fit with the rest of the tone of the 744 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,360 episode and so we didn't include it in the main part, but I thought it was a 745 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,360 valuable enough conversation as we shared a little bit more about our stories 746 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,360 that it might interest some of the listeners to explore that a bit more. 747 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:23,360 So if you want to hear a bit more about where Josh, myself and Troy came from 748 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:27,360 and how we think about our work from a Christian and theological perspective, 749 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:31,360 there's a little bit of an epilogue about us talking through that. 750 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,360 I want to take us in a different direction. 751 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:42,360 So you've got three guys on the call who went from a religious college 752 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:49,360 experience and we're all now in quote unquote non-religious sort of roles in 753 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,360 terms of the things we're doing. 754 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:58,360 Sawyer, you as a data architect and myself as a BI engineer. 755 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:03,360 Josh, you're running your own marketing agency around digital marketing and 756 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:04,360 analytics. 757 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:08,360 So Josh, specifically tell us a little bit about your journey. 758 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:13,360 How do you go from that non-traditional background and find yourself in this 759 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:18,360 kind of a role nerding out on things like Google Analytics and conversion 760 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,360 rates and UTMs of your campaigns? 761 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:23,360 Tell us about that. 762 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,360 I love it. 763 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,360 Now we're really going deep. 764 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:29,360 Let's go. 765 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,360 And you all can choose what you want to cut out of this. 766 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,360 No, I think it's a good question. 767 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:42,360 It took me about, oh, man, 10 years to post college to just grow on my 768 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:47,360 understanding of work and what it means and what the purpose of it is. 769 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:52,360 And so I could go on for a long time about that. 770 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,360 But yeah, you're right. 771 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:55,360 You know, it's funny. 772 00:38:55,360 --> 00:39:02,360 Yeah, I wasn't sure, you know, Troy, where I think I knew you. 773 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:06,360 We all went to the same school, but it didn't actually click and register with me. 774 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:08,360 So, yeah, I went to Bible school. 775 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:16,360 And I think, you know, like I shared earlier, my passion has, regardless of the 776 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:23,360 context, has always been using the tools at our disposal to share stories and 777 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:24,360 help. 778 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:28,360 I think first it started as like share stories enabled in order to make an 779 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:29,360 impact. 780 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:34,360 And now it's more so sharing stories in order to help other people make an 781 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,360 impact in their communities and in their circles. 782 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:42,360 And so getting more specific in that, which is really cool. 783 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:47,360 But yeah, I mean, and I don't know, like, I don't know how deep you all want me 784 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:48,360 to go with this. 785 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:49,360 We can cut this out. 786 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:53,360 I don't know how deep, like I could go in a whole thing about like, you know, 787 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:57,360 theology of work and stuff, but I don't know who your audience is and stuff. 788 00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:58,360 So open it up, Josh. 789 00:39:58,360 --> 00:39:59,360 Go for it. 790 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:00,360 We'll figure it out later. 791 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:01,360 Yeah. 792 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,360 So I think, like I said, it took me about 10 years to, I think, come to this 793 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:10,360 understanding that there's from a work perspective, there's not necessarily 794 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:11,360 there. 795 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,360 You know, I think it's easy to think about whether it's like, quote unquote, 796 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:22,360 faith based work or ministry minded work as like one path to go down as a, I'm 797 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:23,360 a follower of Jesus. 798 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:28,360 And so that, I think I had a very narrow mindset and very narrow view of what 799 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:29,360 that looked like. 800 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:33,360 And coming to the realization that I think also like there was a bit of 801 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:40,360 insecurity in myself to think that I, the skills that I have could translate to 802 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,360 the marketplace or to another type of context. 803 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:50,360 And so, yeah, so that was a really good journey to go on to understand that 804 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:55,360 there's not necessarily like a sacred and secular divide as a follower of Jesus 805 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:56,360 when it comes to work. 806 00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:02,360 I believe I'm commissioned to work for the glory of God in whatever context I 807 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:03,360 find myself in. 808 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:08,360 Obviously there's some where that's automatically negated, but yeah, so I 809 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:13,360 think that's kind of the journey that I've been on in understanding that, man, 810 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:18,360 I think the age that we live in, the time that we live in, we have such an 811 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:23,360 opportunity to again, take the tools that we've been given, the data that we're 812 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:27,360 getting every single day through these tools. 813 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:33,360 And I'm also a big fan of using these platforms in healthy and sustainable 814 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:34,360 ways, right? 815 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:39,360 So oftentimes it's ironic that like I run a digital marketing agency, but like 816 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:44,360 I'm barely ever on social media for myself personally and, you know, helping 817 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,360 people understand like their own, you know, personal limits and boundaries 818 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,360 around these things and what's healthy and for their own lives. 819 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,360 But anyways, I digress. 820 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,360 Yeah, that's kind of what my journey has looked like. 821 00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:01,360 But yeah, I mean, I'd be curious to hear from your perspective as well what 822 00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:03,360 that's looked like for you. 823 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:04,360 Yeah, that's me. 824 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:05,360 Good as Josh. 825 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,360 I don't remember if we talked about this much because my story is similar in 826 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:10,360 some ways. 827 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,360 Like I spent, after movie, was seminary for me for four years. 828 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:17,360 And then it was after seminary, it was, I don't know what I'm doing because I 829 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:22,360 didn't end up being a pastor or in ministry or something like that. 830 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:28,360 And it took me a while to figure out, hey, I can be in the marketplace and love 831 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,360 Jesus and Jesus could love my work in the marketplace. 832 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,360 And that was a fluke some kind of mentors. 833 00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:36,360 It took me a few years to get there. 834 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:40,360 And now I've had a great deal of joy and fulfillment in the marketplace. 835 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:44,360 So, yes, I think there's some probably parallel journeys that we were going on 836 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:45,360 in that space. 837 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:51,360 Yeah, I'm echoing the same thing in terms of just I thought my career goals 838 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:56,360 were to either be a seminary professor or pastor in a church. 839 00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:03,360 And as I was going through seminary, I was working at a job that had me doing 840 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:04,360 all the formulas. 841 00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:09,360 And it was like I got bit by this bug that I just wanted to know more about 842 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:11,360 rows and columns. 843 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,360 And that doesn't mean a lot to a ton of people out there. 844 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:18,360 But if you're a data geek, it's like that's where it all starts. 845 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,360 And it just kept snowballing from there. 846 00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:21,360 And I was like, you know what? 847 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,360 I'm finding passion and fulfillment in the work that I'm doing. 848 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,360 And it's something that I felt gifted in. 849 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:32,360 And so learning that, like you were saying, that theology of work where there 850 00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:36,360 isn't this divide between secular and sacred, that everything I do is something 851 00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,360 that glorifies God is important. 852 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:45,360 And so, yeah, I'm glad that I'm able to do that in the nonprofit Christian 853 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,360 spaces that I've been in. 854 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:51,360 But wherever we're called, I think that's a neat opportunity. 855 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:56,360 So since we're on the topic of, you know, theology, seminary, those kinds of 856 00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,360 things, I got some Bible trivia for you guys. 857 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:00,360 All right? 858 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:08,360 My question is, who's the only person in the Bible who doesn't have a father? 859 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,360 It's not going to be what I want to say. 860 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:16,360 Yeah, it's going to be some trick question or something. 861 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:17,360 It's Joshua. 862 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:18,360 I don't even. 863 00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:20,360 Because he's the son of none. 864 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:21,360 Son of none. 865 00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:22,360 Son of none. 866 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,360 This guy. 867 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:25,360 All right. 868 00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:30,360 This guy.