WEBVTT 00:00:05.160 --> 00:00:08.980 All across America and around the world, this 00:00:08.980 --> 00:00:15.140 is Veterans Radio. This is Veterans Radio. Good 00:00:15.140 --> 00:00:18.600 day. I'm Jim Fossone. I'm the Officer of the 00:00:18.600 --> 00:00:20.699 Deck today here on Veterans Radio and thanks 00:00:20.699 --> 00:00:23.469 for joining us. We've got some interesting stories 00:00:23.469 --> 00:00:25.649 for you. We always want to remind you, you can 00:00:25.649 --> 00:00:28.750 find more about Veterans Radio at its Facebook 00:00:28.750 --> 00:00:32.429 site or at the web, veteransradio .org, where 00:00:32.429 --> 00:00:35.270 we're on the web 24 -7. You can find a lot of 00:00:35.270 --> 00:00:38.310 our podcasts there as well. We post new ones 00:00:38.310 --> 00:00:42.509 every Tuesday, so you can get a new story, a 00:00:42.509 --> 00:00:45.229 new interview, something you didn't know before 00:00:45.229 --> 00:00:49.219 by going to VeteransRadio .org. 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We just want to remind you that Veterans 00:01:34.280 --> 00:01:39.340 Radio podcasts are available on all your favorite 00:01:39.340 --> 00:01:43.359 streaming platforms including rss .com, Apple 00:01:43.359 --> 00:01:48.230 Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Podcasts, I Heart 00:01:48.230 --> 00:01:52.329 Radio, and Reeves Across America Radio. So wherever 00:01:52.329 --> 00:01:55.870 you are, you can find us, whether it's on your 00:01:55.870 --> 00:01:58.290 mobile phone or your computer or your laptop, 00:01:58.370 --> 00:02:02.030 your tablet, but listen in to Veterans Radio 00:02:02.030 --> 00:02:04.750 Podcasts. We post something new every week, and 00:02:04.750 --> 00:02:08.669 you're going to find it informative. Today we're 00:02:08.669 --> 00:02:11.990 going to talk to an Air Force veteran and an 00:02:11.990 --> 00:02:15.860 Army veteran. Both of them have been involved 00:02:15.860 --> 00:02:19.759 in equine therapy in a couple of different ways 00:02:19.759 --> 00:02:22.819 and we're going to bring this to you maybe so 00:02:22.819 --> 00:02:26.740 that you can learn what equine therapy is. That's 00:02:26.740 --> 00:02:29.300 dealing with horses by the way. But also you 00:02:29.300 --> 00:02:32.539 may find that this is something that is of interest 00:02:32.539 --> 00:02:35.860 to you or a friend as maybe an option to deal 00:02:35.860 --> 00:02:39.500 with some issues. Equine therapy is practiced 00:02:39.500 --> 00:02:43.069 all around the nation. One conversation's coming 00:02:43.069 --> 00:02:45.750 from Colorado, another one's coming from Michigan, 00:02:46.349 --> 00:02:50.110 and there are organizations specific to this 00:02:50.110 --> 00:02:54.210 issue that we'll talk about. So listen in about 00:02:54.210 --> 00:02:59.289 equine therapy. We want to welcome back to Veterans 00:02:59.289 --> 00:03:04.270 Radio Colonel Michelle Rule, Air Force veteran. 00:03:04.669 --> 00:03:07.500 Michelle, welcome back. Thank you. Well, we're 00:03:07.500 --> 00:03:09.680 glad to have you. We'll talk more about your 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:11.599 military career at the end, because it is kind 00:03:11.599 --> 00:03:17.539 of fascinating. Well, you're involved in a nonprofit 00:03:17.539 --> 00:03:21.240 called Stable Strides. And folks can learn more 00:03:21.240 --> 00:03:24.919 about it by going to stablestrides .org. It's 00:03:24.919 --> 00:03:28.800 involved in equine therapy. So Michelle, you've 00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:31.699 been involved in this since you were a cadet 00:03:31.699 --> 00:03:34.500 at the Air Force Academy. So a few years ago, 00:03:34.659 --> 00:03:39.740 you might say, Couple decades Tell us how you 00:03:39.740 --> 00:03:44.400 got involved and what equine therapy is It actually 00:03:44.400 --> 00:03:46.659 goes back prior to my military history when I 00:03:46.659 --> 00:03:49.520 was growing up in Detroit I used to go up north 00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:52.539 in Michigan to a horse camp and at that horse 00:03:52.539 --> 00:03:55.300 camp it was run by a church They did a few different 00:03:55.300 --> 00:03:57.819 programs that could help teens that had gone 00:03:57.819 --> 00:04:00.699 through transition or troubling times And I used 00:04:00.699 --> 00:04:04.099 to volunteer to help feed and muck out stalls 00:04:04.099 --> 00:04:06.180 and lead the horses. And I thought, well, that's 00:04:06.180 --> 00:04:08.300 interesting how a horse interacts with someone 00:04:08.300 --> 00:04:10.680 who's going through some mental health challenges. 00:04:11.400 --> 00:04:13.680 But I'll never see that again. And then it turns 00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:15.960 out I went out to the Air Force Academy in Colorado. 00:04:16.339 --> 00:04:18.519 And in our very limited time, we were allowed 00:04:18.519 --> 00:04:20.860 to go do volunteer projects. And I heard of an 00:04:20.860 --> 00:04:23.480 equine therapy center, which used to be called 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:27.160 X1911, which addresses doing miracles for a community. 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:30.040 At that time it was called Pike's Peak Therapeutic 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:32.720 Riding Center and I had to borrow an upperclassman's 00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:35.139 car at the Air Force Academy. I would drive 40 00:04:35.139 --> 00:04:37.980 minutes out and I just again volunteered to be 00:04:37.980 --> 00:04:40.639 a horse leader in what's called a sidewalker. 00:04:40.839 --> 00:04:42.660 A sidewalker is someone who helps someone who's 00:04:42.660 --> 00:04:45.600 in a wheelchair mount onto a horse and you hold 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:48.220 on to the lower half so that they can feel riding 00:04:48.220 --> 00:04:51.300 and what walking feels like, but it takes a sidewalker 00:04:51.300 --> 00:04:53.740 on either side. And there's an accreditation 00:04:53.740 --> 00:04:56.779 body called PATH. and that's a professional association 00:04:56.779 --> 00:04:59.060 of therapeutic horsemanship international. It's 00:04:59.060 --> 00:05:01.379 an accreditation body that does certifications. 00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:03.600 So I thought, well, you know, I'll get a couple 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:05.540 certifications, but I probably won't see this 00:05:05.540 --> 00:05:08.459 again. As it turned out, every military base 00:05:08.459 --> 00:05:11.339 that I was stationed at as a pilot within 20 00:05:11.339 --> 00:05:13.540 minutes, there was an equine therapy center. 00:05:13.860 --> 00:05:16.240 But over the last two decades, it wasn't well 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:18.079 known and there wasn't a lot of evidence based 00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:20.259 research. It just seemed sort of an alternative 00:05:20.259 --> 00:05:22.360 therapy that might be for some people, but not 00:05:22.360 --> 00:05:25.230 for others. But I always found a place. For instance, 00:05:25.269 --> 00:05:27.389 when I was stationed at Beale flying the MC -12, 00:05:27.509 --> 00:05:29.850 there was a therapy center about 20 minutes outside 00:05:29.850 --> 00:05:32.170 the South Gate, and I was able to work with them 00:05:32.170 --> 00:05:34.449 called Warrior Soul. When I was in Virginia, 00:05:34.589 --> 00:05:36.930 of course, that has a lot of horse history, but 00:05:36.930 --> 00:05:38.810 I was able to find a therapy center, also Little 00:05:38.810 --> 00:05:41.509 Rock, Arkansas, and then, of course, Colorado. 00:05:42.189 --> 00:05:44.689 So I kept up my certifications, thinking I would 00:05:44.689 --> 00:05:46.850 do it part -time, and I did for a while. I'm 00:05:46.850 --> 00:05:49.069 a therapeutic riding instructor, so I can help 00:05:49.069 --> 00:05:51.170 people who have different types of disabilities, 00:05:51.250 --> 00:05:54.269 whether that's speech, occupational, physical 00:05:54.269 --> 00:05:56.670 therapy, it's called hippotherapy on a horse. 00:05:57.230 --> 00:06:00.230 And then I also started digging into other types 00:06:00.230 --> 00:06:02.509 of work with horses, including mental health. 00:06:02.709 --> 00:06:05.430 So I also have a certification equine specialist 00:06:05.430 --> 00:06:08.329 in mental health and learning. Long title, we 00:06:08.329 --> 00:06:11.329 shorten it to ES for equine specialist. And I 00:06:11.329 --> 00:06:13.649 combined that with being I'm now a life coach 00:06:13.649 --> 00:06:16.310 that helps veterans and military members deal 00:06:16.310 --> 00:06:19.589 with addiction, recovery, grief, and suicidal 00:06:19.589 --> 00:06:22.860 ideations. And the reason I started moving towards 00:06:22.860 --> 00:06:25.420 mental health with horses is I was noticing at 00:06:25.420 --> 00:06:27.180 every single base, there would be people coming 00:06:27.180 --> 00:06:29.740 back from Iraq and Afghanistan who didn't want 00:06:29.740 --> 00:06:32.279 to do traditional talk therapy. But they were 00:06:32.279 --> 00:06:34.220 willing to go out and work with animals. And 00:06:34.220 --> 00:06:36.939 I thought, well, I'll just sort of stay involved 00:06:36.939 --> 00:06:40.139 peripherally. Well, after my 21 -year military 00:06:40.139 --> 00:06:43.079 career, I recently retired. And I was doing some 00:06:43.079 --> 00:06:45.699 part -time work with now called Stable Strides. 00:06:45.860 --> 00:06:48.879 It's under its third name change. I was just 00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:50.500 doing Mondays and Tuesdays and I was working 00:06:50.500 --> 00:06:52.379 with some children and I started noticing that 00:06:52.379 --> 00:06:54.120 we didn't have the same veteran and military 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:56.300 population that we had over the last two decades. 00:06:56.860 --> 00:06:59.199 And so I joined the board. I joined the board 00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:01.360 of stable strides. And I thought, well, that 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:03.220 might be a way to help. I was recently elected 00:07:03.220 --> 00:07:06.000 to a school board. I'm on another board at Mount 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:08.019 Carmel Veterans Service Center. So I thought 00:07:08.019 --> 00:07:11.000 from the executive level, I can help expand our 00:07:11.000 --> 00:07:15.579 services back to serving the 330 ,000 veterans 00:07:15.579 --> 00:07:18.670 we have in Colorado, 7 % of our state. But we 00:07:18.670 --> 00:07:21.769 also have 30 ,000 active duty and reserve military 00:07:21.769 --> 00:07:24.410 members here from all over the country. And I 00:07:24.410 --> 00:07:27.009 get more phone calls a day requesting these services, 00:07:27.089 --> 00:07:29.709 which we can get into in a minute. But the point 00:07:29.709 --> 00:07:32.250 is the demand is high and people are looking 00:07:32.250 --> 00:07:35.170 for this type of therapeutic environment as they're 00:07:35.170 --> 00:07:38.639 coming back with moral injury and PTS. After 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:40.920 I was on the board for a little bit, the previous 00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:43.139 executive director resigned with some family 00:07:43.139 --> 00:07:45.300 issues, and so we looked around the room going, 00:07:45.699 --> 00:07:47.699 where are we going to find an immediate executive 00:07:47.699 --> 00:07:49.759 director who can work with veterans and military, 00:07:49.879 --> 00:07:52.860 who can start now, and can expand our program? 00:07:53.579 --> 00:07:56.000 And I thought, well, that's hard to find. Turns 00:07:56.000 --> 00:07:59.180 out... Well, in the Air Force, he volunteered. 00:07:59.459 --> 00:08:01.459 So, you know, come on. You should have known 00:08:01.459 --> 00:08:04.339 better what this was going to get you into. I 00:08:04.339 --> 00:08:07.959 do, so now I am the executive director of Stable 00:08:07.959 --> 00:08:12.379 Strives. Talk a little bit about, because there 00:08:12.379 --> 00:08:15.699 is now more research and we're learning more, 00:08:15.899 --> 00:08:18.259 maybe it's just getting more exposure to equine 00:08:18.259 --> 00:08:23.000 therapy, what is it between a horse and a person 00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:27.319 who's having their own challenges that sort of 00:08:27.319 --> 00:08:31.100 is a connection that makes this work for some 00:08:31.100 --> 00:08:34.450 folks? Yeah, I can put it in a nutshell that 00:08:34.450 --> 00:08:37.929 our ancestors used horses quite a bit because 00:08:37.929 --> 00:08:40.129 they knew something that we have sort of forgotten 00:08:40.129 --> 00:08:43.549 in our kind of modern Western medicine. And that's 00:08:43.549 --> 00:08:46.509 that a horse, it mirrors human behavior. But 00:08:46.509 --> 00:08:48.669 what a horse can't do that humans are very good 00:08:48.669 --> 00:08:51.769 at doing is they can't hide their true feelings 00:08:51.769 --> 00:08:55.730 or anxiety. So they are part of a herd. And horses 00:08:55.730 --> 00:08:59.200 just want to know all the time, am I safe? So 00:08:59.200 --> 00:09:01.620 they turn to humans as part of their herd as 00:09:01.620 --> 00:09:03.779 long as they feel safe. But when they don't feel 00:09:03.779 --> 00:09:06.899 safe, they act out. So they may show anxiety, 00:09:06.940 --> 00:09:09.279 which we can see in their ears and in their body, 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:11.720 in their behavior, their breathing. The horses 00:09:11.720 --> 00:09:14.000 also have the mentality of about a four to seven 00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:16.779 year old child, and they can sense our heartbeat, 00:09:16.919 --> 00:09:20.340 human anxiety, and our behavior at up to four 00:09:20.340 --> 00:09:23.379 to five feet away. So what a horse offers for 00:09:23.379 --> 00:09:26.220 you is a mirror to what you're trying to hold 00:09:26.220 --> 00:09:29.000 in and compartmentalize. And you may not want 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:31.259 to sit on a couch and do traditional talk therapy. 00:09:31.419 --> 00:09:34.139 So what we do with equine therapy is you will 00:09:34.139 --> 00:09:37.000 have a client work with a horse and with a specialist. 00:09:37.820 --> 00:09:40.460 And then we ask the horse and the client to sort 00:09:40.460 --> 00:09:42.440 of lead this session. And it's not that there's 00:09:42.440 --> 00:09:44.399 no objective. There's very clear objective. But 00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:46.919 I'll give an actually concrete example. I worked 00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:49.340 with a gentleman from Fort Carson who was a sergeant 00:09:49.340 --> 00:09:51.360 who was really struggling with anger management 00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:53.759 and with domestic abuse. And he knew that he 00:09:53.759 --> 00:09:56.330 was being violent towards his spouse. but he 00:09:56.330 --> 00:09:58.429 couldn't quite put a finger on when it was coming 00:09:58.429 --> 00:10:00.929 up. He would come home and feel like he was calm 00:10:00.929 --> 00:10:02.870 and he could handle being with his spouse, but 00:10:02.870 --> 00:10:05.409 something would trigger him after a couple tours 00:10:05.409 --> 00:10:08.490 in Iraq. So I chose a horse for him that did 00:10:08.490 --> 00:10:10.929 have high anxiety. It was very high spirited, 00:10:11.009 --> 00:10:13.990 but it was kind. And all I said was, hey, go 00:10:13.990 --> 00:10:15.769 grab that horse. Go try to go bridle that horse 00:10:15.769 --> 00:10:17.970 and bring it to you. And the horse would back 00:10:17.970 --> 00:10:20.539 away. and wouldn't get anywhere near him. And 00:10:20.539 --> 00:10:22.559 this guy had horse experience. And he kept saying, 00:10:22.580 --> 00:10:24.779 I don't understand why I have ridden. I know 00:10:24.779 --> 00:10:26.659 how to do this. How come he won't come near me? 00:10:26.899 --> 00:10:29.899 I didn't have to say much because I watched as 00:10:29.899 --> 00:10:32.039 he tried to do some deep breathing and calm himself 00:10:32.039 --> 00:10:34.519 down. The horse would approach. And as soon as 00:10:34.519 --> 00:10:36.179 he would start to walk towards the horse again, 00:10:36.200 --> 00:10:38.840 the horse would back up. And immediately he looked 00:10:38.840 --> 00:10:41.580 at me and he said, I didn't realize I was giving 00:10:41.580 --> 00:10:43.980 off this much anger, anxiety. And he said, is 00:10:43.980 --> 00:10:47.679 this how my wife feels? Wow. So that's powerful. 00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:50.919 He came to that conclusion and realized he was 00:10:50.919 --> 00:10:53.080 putting out this anxiety, but the horse can't 00:10:53.080 --> 00:10:55.220 hide it. Like we wear a mask, we hide behind, 00:10:55.279 --> 00:10:58.480 I'm fine. I can handle it. Well, they don't do 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:00.779 that because everything's a predator. So they 00:11:00.779 --> 00:11:03.899 have to communicate in a herd to say danger. 00:11:04.519 --> 00:11:07.980 And so they give us a mirror to our own challenges 00:11:07.980 --> 00:11:11.059 and our own mental health struggles, which even 00:11:11.059 --> 00:11:13.559 I have participated in. And I'd be happy to share 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:16.960 how it helped me as well. Well, we'll come back 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:19.840 to that for a moment. But I think this is one 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:22.500 of these things, and we've been talking to veterans 00:11:22.500 --> 00:11:30.139 on Veterans Radio for 20 plus years now. There's 00:11:30.139 --> 00:11:33.799 no one silver magic bullet that deals with the 00:11:33.799 --> 00:11:36.720 problems veterans may have on emotional or anger 00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:41.100 or PTSD. So you have to find the therapy or the 00:11:41.100 --> 00:11:44.039 approach that the veteran's comfortable with. 00:11:44.190 --> 00:11:47.490 And I think at the VA for a long time, they just 00:11:47.490 --> 00:11:51.049 take these pills, that's it, one size fits all. 00:11:51.830 --> 00:11:55.029 But that's where equine therapy comes in. For 00:11:55.029 --> 00:11:59.710 some folks, this may be the right therapy that 00:11:59.710 --> 00:12:04.789 works for them, that they can connect with while 00:12:04.789 --> 00:12:07.610 they didn't connect with a variety of other things. 00:12:07.830 --> 00:12:11.080 And is that kind of what you see as well? I am 00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:13.279 seeing, it's just another mode, it's another 00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:16.639 tool in the kit, but for the type of person that 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:19.179 is generally drawn towards the military and towards 00:12:19.179 --> 00:12:21.379 operation and towards relationship and towards 00:12:21.379 --> 00:12:24.419 being a protector, all of those come out when 00:12:24.419 --> 00:12:26.919 you're working with a 2 ,000 pound animal that 00:12:26.919 --> 00:12:29.340 might be bigger than you, because there's that 00:12:29.340 --> 00:12:31.899 instinct for us as humans to protect, is their 00:12:31.899 --> 00:12:33.620 part, the animal's part of our herd, part of 00:12:33.620 --> 00:12:36.159 our squadron, part of our battalion. But at the 00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:39.019 same time, that animal is also looking to us 00:12:39.019 --> 00:12:41.559 to provide something and clearly communicate. 00:12:41.740 --> 00:12:44.460 If you try to hide or lie to the animal, it knows 00:12:44.460 --> 00:12:46.639 and it won't come towards you and it won't build 00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:49.460 that relationship. So it's just a different modality 00:12:49.460 --> 00:12:52.220 and it doesn't include Western medicine, which 00:12:52.220 --> 00:12:54.440 you could augment if your doctor says that that's 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:56.980 correct. But this is more, how do I work through 00:12:56.980 --> 00:12:59.559 some of that energy, some of the trigger, some 00:12:59.559 --> 00:13:03.159 of the PTS? And even grief. Horses are animals 00:13:03.159 --> 00:13:06.019 that grieve when one is removed or one passes 00:13:06.019 --> 00:13:08.960 away or when they're separated. They stand and 00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:11.080 they look for the other. They'll stand in the 00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:13.259 spot that they were. They'll eat in the same 00:13:13.259 --> 00:13:16.240 trough and just look for their member. So they 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:18.279 really understand that group mentality when a 00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:21.279 group is sort of separated. And it's just a modality 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:23.399 that works for a lot of people that are already 00:13:23.399 --> 00:13:26.070 drawn to a military lifestyle. But it doesn't 00:13:26.070 --> 00:13:28.389 require sitting still. You don't have to sit 00:13:28.389 --> 00:13:30.629 down and talk about your feelings. You can act 00:13:30.629 --> 00:13:33.370 them out. You can ride. You can touch. You can 00:13:33.370 --> 00:13:36.289 actually express emotion. And it doesn't even 00:13:36.289 --> 00:13:41.110 require talking for a lot of this. And we're 00:13:41.110 --> 00:13:44.350 talking to Air Force retired Colonel Michelle 00:13:44.350 --> 00:13:48.809 Rule, who's the CEO of stablestrides .org in 00:13:48.809 --> 00:13:53.940 Colorado, about equine therapy. So these animals 00:13:53.940 --> 00:13:58.419 are, as you mentioned, minigots, big, sizable. 00:13:59.500 --> 00:14:04.940 Their care is costly. I know from reviewing stablestrides 00:14:04.940 --> 00:14:09.100 .org's website, it has an operating budget of 00:14:09.100 --> 00:14:13.879 about a million dollars for, I'm not sure how 00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:16.120 many horses, I think there's 10 or 12 or something, 00:14:16.500 --> 00:14:19.620 but this is an expensive proposition for a non 00:14:19.620 --> 00:14:24.360 -profit. How do you keep it going financially? 00:14:25.039 --> 00:14:27.700 You know there's a positive outcome for people, 00:14:27.899 --> 00:14:31.139 but still it takes a lot of resources to do that. 00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:34.580 It does. This is one of the most expensive nonprofits. 00:14:34.740 --> 00:14:37.259 It's a large animal that eats and then has vet 00:14:37.259 --> 00:14:41.649 bills and they eat a lot. We have it down to 00:14:41.649 --> 00:14:44.730 grants and donor funding, but to be honest, every 00:14:44.730 --> 00:14:46.210 time the horse comes out of this stall, it's 00:14:46.210 --> 00:14:49.169 about $200 for just coming out. That's overhead 00:14:49.169 --> 00:14:51.549 operating costs of running a farm and a ranch. 00:14:51.690 --> 00:14:53.750 We do have 15 horses, but three of those are 00:14:53.750 --> 00:14:56.450 mini. Mini horses are about the size of my great 00:14:56.450 --> 00:14:59.070 Pyrenees, they're smaller. Even those have therapeutic 00:14:59.070 --> 00:15:01.710 value, having a small horse to work with, and 00:15:01.710 --> 00:15:03.860 children love it as well. So what we've been 00:15:03.860 --> 00:15:06.000 really dependent on over the last two decades, 00:15:06.259 --> 00:15:08.200 they've actually been around for 44 years, but 00:15:08.200 --> 00:15:10.419 for the last two decades specifically has been 00:15:10.419 --> 00:15:14.480 a lot of VA funding, adaptive sports. There's 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:16.919 been all sorts of private donors, but as you 00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:19.879 know, there's donor fatigue. There's also a focus 00:15:19.879 --> 00:15:22.320 over the last year that's been on food scarcity 00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:26.799 and rightly so. But the mental health of my generation 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:30.419 of veterans that are coming home from 20 years 00:15:30.419 --> 00:15:33.799 of war in Afghanistan and in Iraq, What we don't 00:15:33.799 --> 00:15:35.919 want is what happened in Vietnam where we weren't 00:15:35.919 --> 00:15:38.000 prepared for the mental health challenges of 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:40.200 our veterans coming home. Now we know better. 00:15:40.500 --> 00:15:43.559 So how do we do better? And part of that is this 00:15:43.559 --> 00:15:46.440 type of therapeutic work is helping for moral 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:49.159 injury and grief as well. I mean, my generation, 00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:51.179 I was working in the White House the night Afghanistan 00:15:51.179 --> 00:15:54.600 fell. And I have many people coming to me going, 00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:57.480 I still have my interpreter in Afghanistan. I'm 00:15:57.480 --> 00:15:59.639 feeling all of this sort of grief and I can't 00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:02.139 get them out. And so we actually have horses 00:16:02.139 --> 00:16:04.879 that help process some of that grief and also 00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:07.879 loss from the war. But if we want to do better, 00:16:08.059 --> 00:16:10.980 it means having about 12 to 15 horse capacity 00:16:10.980 --> 00:16:13.480 to be able to do the services. And each horse 00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:16.019 is about $10 ,000 a year. So we look for corporate 00:16:16.019 --> 00:16:17.740 sponsors. We're always looking for someone to 00:16:17.740 --> 00:16:20.440 sponsor an entire horse for 10 or a partial horse. 00:16:20.679 --> 00:16:23.340 and help with those payments. And honestly, I 00:16:23.340 --> 00:16:25.340 don't take a paycheck as the executive director. 00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:28.340 Right now, I feel like my heart is in giving 00:16:28.340 --> 00:16:30.840 that back so that we can give scholarships to 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:33.139 our military. But the other thing that we're 00:16:33.139 --> 00:16:35.419 really struggling with is the cost of having 00:16:35.419 --> 00:16:38.259 a therapist that accepts TRICARE. So for our 00:16:38.259 --> 00:16:40.799 active duty members here, we have seven military 00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:43.559 bases right here in Colorado, five within driving 00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:46.419 distance from my Equine Center. And so I get 00:16:46.419 --> 00:16:48.700 calls every morning from the military bases saying, 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:51.100 can you take someone? And right now we can only 00:16:51.100 --> 00:16:53.399 accept, we have one therapist who takes TRICARE 00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:55.960 for children, which is very important, taking 00:16:55.960 --> 00:16:58.240 care of our military members, children who are 00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:00.879 experiencing secondary effects of their parents' 00:17:01.139 --> 00:17:04.579 trauma and TTS. But then also we used to have 00:17:04.579 --> 00:17:06.579 therapists who could accept TRICARE, but as you 00:17:06.579 --> 00:17:09.500 can imagine, a nonprofit that has to feed horses 00:17:09.500 --> 00:17:12.140 and keep the lights on a ranch, we don't have 00:17:12.140 --> 00:17:14.680 the same funding opportunities to be able to 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:17.259 fully pay for a therapist that's in private practice. 00:17:17.539 --> 00:17:20.079 So this has to be someone who we can pay through 00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:23.220 grants and donor funding, but they also love 00:17:23.220 --> 00:17:25.480 working with our military veteran population. 00:17:25.700 --> 00:17:27.619 They choose to do it. They choose to do it through 00:17:27.619 --> 00:17:30.420 a nonprofit. So we also are looking for people 00:17:30.420 --> 00:17:32.220 that might be listening to this. They go, I could 00:17:32.220 --> 00:17:35.000 do that for four hours on a Friday. And then 00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:37.160 we're looking for those donors to help supplement 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:40.039 the cost. It cost about $200 per session to pay 00:17:40.039 --> 00:17:42.269 out of pocket. And we know that for a lot of 00:17:42.269 --> 00:17:44.809 our military members, that's just it's a high 00:17:44.809 --> 00:17:47.910 cost, but the return on investment is life saving. 00:17:48.210 --> 00:17:52.049 Well, and I want to suggest to our veteran radio 00:17:52.049 --> 00:17:56.630 listeners, if you're an individual or a corporation 00:17:56.630 --> 00:17:58.710 or a foundation, you know, somebody who might 00:17:58.710 --> 00:18:02.990 be thinking that they could support equine therapy, 00:18:03.049 --> 00:18:09.369 go to the stable strides dot org. You can. see 00:18:09.369 --> 00:18:12.650 their tax information. There's a lot of financial 00:18:12.650 --> 00:18:15.390 transparency there, which I was glad to see. 00:18:16.089 --> 00:18:18.829 I'm sure they can reach out to you, Michelle, 00:18:19.369 --> 00:18:23.750 as the executive director there. But let's find 00:18:23.750 --> 00:18:30.130 ways to keep these kinds of programs available 00:18:30.130 --> 00:18:34.009 at a cost or a reasonable cost or no cost to 00:18:34.009 --> 00:18:36.130 our veterans and their families. I love the fact 00:18:36.130 --> 00:18:39.500 that you're helping veterans children of veterans 00:18:39.500 --> 00:18:42.079 as well, because they so often get left out of 00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:45.140 the deal, right? Maybe mom or dad can go to the 00:18:45.140 --> 00:18:48.000 VA for care, but there's no care for the kid. 00:18:48.420 --> 00:18:54.660 And they do suffer silently often with those 00:18:54.660 --> 00:18:59.279 problems that are brought home. Is there federal 00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:01.880 or state grant money also available for this 00:19:01.880 --> 00:19:04.180 sort of work, or is that diminished in today's 00:19:04.180 --> 00:19:06.930 environment? The federal grant funding is paused 00:19:06.930 --> 00:19:09.789 for now, but I am an English professor on the 00:19:09.789 --> 00:19:11.950 side, so I set my alarm every morning at 4 a 00:19:11.950 --> 00:19:14.369 .m. I'm also our grant writer, and I'm putting 00:19:14.369 --> 00:19:17.509 in two right now that are larger grants asking 00:19:17.509 --> 00:19:19.430 for continued funding, but it's actually, you 00:19:19.430 --> 00:19:21.730 mentioned the children of veterans. We're starting 00:19:21.730 --> 00:19:24.170 a new program, and it's literacy intervention. 00:19:24.690 --> 00:19:26.549 Because I'm on a school board, we actually have 00:19:26.549 --> 00:19:29.250 23 ,000 students in our school district, and 00:19:29.250 --> 00:19:32.269 the children are only reading at 38 % proficiency 00:19:32.269 --> 00:19:35.220 across grade level. And many of these are veteran 00:19:35.220 --> 00:19:37.359 and military children who've moved around a lot 00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:39.579 and who have issues with either English as a 00:19:39.579 --> 00:19:42.819 second language or literacy in general, just 00:19:42.819 --> 00:19:46.119 from moving and not having constant educational 00:19:46.119 --> 00:19:48.779 care. And so we've started a literacy program 00:19:48.779 --> 00:19:51.480 and it's in a national called Horse Powered Reading, 00:19:51.799 --> 00:19:53.980 but we have started it at our center and it's 00:19:53.980 --> 00:19:55.839 two retired school teachers, one's a principal. 00:19:56.250 --> 00:19:58.470 And it's to reach out to the military and veteran 00:19:58.470 --> 00:20:01.029 children and be able to do literacy intervention 00:20:01.029 --> 00:20:03.049 prior to third grade and then third grade to 00:20:03.049 --> 00:20:06.410 eighth grade to help reduce that gap. And then 00:20:06.410 --> 00:20:09.549 secondary, we also we accept Medicaid, but that 00:20:09.549 --> 00:20:12.250 barely covers a third of the cost for children 00:20:12.250 --> 00:20:14.950 that need intervention for behavior and mental 00:20:14.950 --> 00:20:17.549 health that are in middle school. We're seeing 00:20:17.549 --> 00:20:21.089 a high rate of suicidal ideation in middle schoolers. 00:20:21.410 --> 00:20:23.569 And so what we're able to do is bring them out 00:20:23.569 --> 00:20:26.650 and do some group work. But again, the cost is 00:20:26.650 --> 00:20:28.809 prohibitive for a lot of families that actually 00:20:28.809 --> 00:20:32.990 need it. It's a catch -22. So we look for funders 00:20:32.990 --> 00:20:35.589 to help us keep those programs going for the 00:20:35.589 --> 00:20:36.990 children that are here and then our military 00:20:36.990 --> 00:20:41.190 families that rotate through. So we normally 00:20:41.190 --> 00:20:43.569 start our veteran radio programs talking about 00:20:43.569 --> 00:20:47.369 our just military career so that our listeners 00:20:47.369 --> 00:20:50.289 know that this person maybe has walked in their 00:20:50.289 --> 00:20:53.480 boots before. We didn't do that here because 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:56.720 I wanted to get right into equine therapy and 00:20:56.720 --> 00:21:00.900 the current need at stable strides. I'm hoping 00:21:00.900 --> 00:21:04.279 some folks will reach out and help support. But 00:21:04.279 --> 00:21:06.619 Michelle, let's back up. I think we mentioned 00:21:06.619 --> 00:21:11.079 you went through the Air Force Academy. You became 00:21:11.079 --> 00:21:15.660 a pilot. You flew overseas. Tell us a little 00:21:15.660 --> 00:21:20.589 bit about that. Then we also touched on that 00:21:20.589 --> 00:21:21.809 you were in the White House. Well, you were a 00:21:21.809 --> 00:21:27.750 White House fellow. And again, recently retired 00:21:27.750 --> 00:21:31.869 back to Colorado with your husband and family, 00:21:31.970 --> 00:21:34.529 your husband, a former Air Force pilot as well. 00:21:35.170 --> 00:21:37.630 But tell us a little bit, let our listeners know 00:21:37.630 --> 00:21:41.119 that you're the real deal. Well, I graduated 00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:43.579 from the Air Force Academy in 2003 and then I 00:21:43.579 --> 00:21:46.400 went on to fly the C -130 and then the MC -12 00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:49.579 which is a King Air 350 that does manned intelligence 00:21:49.579 --> 00:21:52.480 surveillance and reconnaissance. So I did my 00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:56.599 tours in Afghanistan and we would fly over continuous 00:21:56.599 --> 00:21:59.099 operations so that we could watch the ground 00:21:59.099 --> 00:22:00.920 and we could send down real -time surveillance 00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:03.200 to the ground troops so they could make battle 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:05.059 decisions and we could also do battle damage 00:22:05.059 --> 00:22:07.940 assessment. But while I was there, I got very 00:22:07.940 --> 00:22:10.319 close to the Afghan people. I also taught English. 00:22:10.539 --> 00:22:12.319 So in addition to being a pilot, I was an English 00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:14.619 professor at the Air Force Academy. So I did 00:22:14.619 --> 00:22:17.119 a lot of volunteer teaching for the young girls 00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:20.299 in Afghanistan teaching English and some young 00:22:20.299 --> 00:22:22.539 men that were there. So I also had interpreters. 00:22:23.059 --> 00:22:25.400 And when it came time to come back to the U .S., 00:22:25.400 --> 00:22:27.579 I was a White House fellow under both President 00:22:27.579 --> 00:22:30.480 Trump and President Biden. And I did speech writing, 00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:32.680 military advising. And like I said, I was there 00:22:32.680 --> 00:22:35.640 the night of the Afghanistan fall. And then I 00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:37.680 went on to the Pentagon. I did future warfare 00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:41.119 in the joint staff. My final assignment was the 00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:43.240 Air Force sent me back to work at NORAD in Cheyenne 00:22:43.240 --> 00:22:45.440 Mountain. So I was deputy command center director 00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:47.220 watching all of the missiles around the world. 00:22:47.940 --> 00:22:50.519 And now I still work with the Air Force Academy 00:22:50.519 --> 00:22:53.099 as an admissions liaison officer. And I'm also 00:22:53.099 --> 00:22:56.480 one of the theater officers in charge. So we're 00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:58.480 doing something around the roof. But I bring 00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:01.240 all that up to say, I went back and forth between 00:23:01.240 --> 00:23:03.940 flying airplanes and also teaching. So I really 00:23:03.940 --> 00:23:05.900 had the left and right brain going because I 00:23:05.900 --> 00:23:09.119 taught English. And what I noticed a common thread 00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:12.279 through both flying and doing operations overseas 00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:15.599 and then teaching was really the humanity, that 00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:18.059 part of it. We can get more and more advanced 00:23:18.059 --> 00:23:20.799 in technology and AI and our combat systems, 00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:22.940 but at the heart of it, it's really the people 00:23:22.940 --> 00:23:24.819 that we need to take care of that are still making 00:23:24.819 --> 00:23:27.599 the original decisions. And I was noticing a 00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:30.500 heavier and heavier load on a lot of our young 00:23:30.500 --> 00:23:34.140 guys who did 11, 12 deployments. So I went and 00:23:34.140 --> 00:23:36.940 decided to get a master's degree also in psychology 00:23:36.940 --> 00:23:39.099 and become a life coach. And the reason I did 00:23:39.099 --> 00:23:41.779 that is because as much as we've worked to reduce 00:23:41.779 --> 00:23:44.660 the stigma and mental health in the flying community, 00:23:45.019 --> 00:23:47.400 in the last three years, I have lost people that 00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:49.680 are very near and dear to my heart to suicide 00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:52.559 because they could not come forward. In the flying 00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:55.099 community, if we come forward, you will still 00:23:55.099 --> 00:23:57.200 have the possibility of losing your wings, which 00:23:57.200 --> 00:23:59.339 to many people is their livelihood. And it's 00:23:59.339 --> 00:24:01.079 not just the flying community, a lot of special 00:24:01.079 --> 00:24:03.539 operations. So we're working on getting that 00:24:03.539 --> 00:24:05.819 to be much more open and reduce the stigma. But 00:24:05.819 --> 00:24:08.440 the point is a lot of people won't go through 00:24:08.440 --> 00:24:10.480 TRICARE or won't go to the VA, but they will 00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:12.859 go to a private life coach. And if they go to 00:24:12.859 --> 00:24:15.359 the private life coach like me, I work in the 00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:17.960 grief and I work in all of these areas. to be 00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:19.680 able to give them an avenue and I'm not saying 00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:22.119 go around the military system. I'm saying I'd 00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:24.299 love for it to augment. I would love for our 00:24:24.299 --> 00:24:25.740 people to be able to go to their health care 00:24:25.740 --> 00:24:28.880 provider but also see someone like me who's a 00:24:28.880 --> 00:24:32.099 life coach that can walk you through a lot of 00:24:32.099 --> 00:24:34.359 the same challenges that you would talk to with 00:24:34.359 --> 00:24:36.859 a therapist. So I've joined with a group out 00:24:36.859 --> 00:24:39.660 here that does retreats for veterans and we bring 00:24:39.660 --> 00:24:41.700 people out here who are facing some of the toughest 00:24:41.700 --> 00:24:45.039 situations you can imagine. suicide and grief 00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:47.180 and loss, and we bring them out to do a retreat 00:24:47.180 --> 00:24:49.640 with equine therapy. So that's in addition to 00:24:49.640 --> 00:24:52.160 Stable Strides. We do that for anyone in the 00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:54.460 entire country listening. You can reach me through 00:24:54.460 --> 00:24:57.019 stablestrides .org and we can talk about those 00:24:57.019 --> 00:25:00.220 veteran retreats. Well, one of the things we 00:25:00.220 --> 00:25:03.259 try to get when we're promoting nonprofits and 00:25:03.259 --> 00:25:06.000 supporting nonprofits like Stable Strides is 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:08.099 we want our listeners to know, as I mentioned 00:25:08.099 --> 00:25:10.599 a minute ago, the person organizing it, running 00:25:10.599 --> 00:25:13.269 it, the person who's going to be a fiduciary 00:25:13.269 --> 00:25:16.710 of the funds that you donate has a heart and 00:25:16.710 --> 00:25:20.130 a brain in the right spot. And clearly, Michelle, 00:25:20.589 --> 00:25:25.670 you do. We've been longtime friends. So I know 00:25:25.670 --> 00:25:29.410 better than most and your family. So I know everything 00:25:29.410 --> 00:25:33.549 is in the right spot. So we're glad to bring 00:25:33.549 --> 00:25:38.220 stablestrides .org to the forefront. to highlight 00:25:38.220 --> 00:25:41.599 the value of equine therapy, but also the struggles 00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:45.059 in today's climate to financially be able to 00:25:45.059 --> 00:25:47.200 keep something like this going. And we'd encourage 00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:49.559 folks to go check it out a little bit more. And 00:25:49.559 --> 00:25:54.660 if you feel compelled to support the cause. So 00:25:54.660 --> 00:25:56.660 Michelle, really appreciate the time that you've 00:25:56.660 --> 00:26:00.339 given us today on Veterans Radio. Thank you. 00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:03.859 Military veterans touch everyone's life. I'm 00:26:03.859 --> 00:26:05.680 guessing right now you're thinking of a veteran. 00:26:06.009 --> 00:26:10.089 A close friend, relative, maybe it's you. Even 00:26:10.089 --> 00:26:12.869 the toughest of us sometimes need help, but don't 00:26:12.869 --> 00:26:15.150 know where to turn for support. You don't need 00:26:15.150 --> 00:26:16.970 special training to help a veteran in your life. 00:26:17.289 --> 00:26:19.269 We can all help someone going through a difficult 00:26:19.269 --> 00:26:22.029 time. Learn how you can be there for veterans. 00:26:22.509 --> 00:26:26.130 Visit veteranscrisisline .net. Veteranscrisisline 00:26:26.130 --> 00:26:28.910 .net. A message from the U .S. Department of 00:26:28.910 --> 00:26:32.630 Veterans Affairs. If you have a VA claim denied 00:26:32.630 --> 00:26:34.849 by the Board of Veterans' Appeals, contact Legal 00:26:34.849 --> 00:26:39.490 Help for Veterans at 1 -800 -693 -4800. They're 00:26:39.490 --> 00:26:41.589 experts in handling cases before the U .S. Court 00:26:41.589 --> 00:26:43.589 of Appeals for Veterans' claims. Their number 00:26:43.589 --> 00:26:48.309 again, 1 -800 -693 -4800. Now let's hear from 00:26:48.309 --> 00:26:51.869 a vet who thought, well, you know, equine therapy 00:26:51.869 --> 00:26:55.190 is good for my family and my kids to go do it, 00:26:55.190 --> 00:26:59.609 but I don't need that kind of stuff. Ultimately 00:26:59.609 --> 00:27:03.690 found himself getting involved with equine therapy 00:27:03.690 --> 00:27:06.990 kind of after the family did and finding it helpful. 00:27:07.089 --> 00:27:11.170 He's on the journey now, has not completed the 00:27:11.170 --> 00:27:14.250 whole coursework, if you will, but has found 00:27:14.250 --> 00:27:17.450 it to be something that works for him and that's 00:27:17.450 --> 00:27:20.390 why we're bringing you this story. It's really 00:27:20.390 --> 00:27:24.130 about finding what works for you to get through 00:27:24.130 --> 00:27:28.740 maybe it's PTS, maybe it's anger issues, maybe 00:27:28.740 --> 00:27:32.279 it's getting off some self -medication and finding 00:27:32.279 --> 00:27:34.900 a little peace in life. Lots of different ways 00:27:34.900 --> 00:27:39.039 to do it, and this is just one that is a little 00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:42.140 unusual, but it's working for people, so don't 00:27:42.140 --> 00:27:45.059 write it off. Give it some consideration. We 00:27:45.059 --> 00:27:49.019 want to welcome to Veterans Radio today an Army 00:27:49.019 --> 00:27:52.619 veteran of some 30 years, Will Bruck, who was 00:27:52.619 --> 00:27:56.680 a Chief Warrant Officer for retiring in 2023. 00:27:57.339 --> 00:28:00.299 Will, welcome to Veterans Radio. Well, thank 00:28:00.299 --> 00:28:02.380 you, Jim, for the invite. It's an honor to be 00:28:02.380 --> 00:28:04.779 on today, sir. Well, we're going to talk about 00:28:04.779 --> 00:28:07.680 your experience with equine therapy, but let 00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:10.279 me set this up a little bit, as I said to our 00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:14.210 audience. Will served for 30 years in the army. 00:28:14.490 --> 00:28:17.109 He did four tours of duty overseas, including 00:28:17.109 --> 00:28:20.170 Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria. Along the way, 00:28:20.329 --> 00:28:24.089 he collected two bronze stars, meritorious service 00:28:24.089 --> 00:28:28.430 medal, a combat action badge. But in his non 00:28:28.430 --> 00:28:31.349 -military career, he's been a journeyman lineman 00:28:31.349 --> 00:28:34.549 with IBEW, and he's... Awfully happy he's not 00:28:34.549 --> 00:28:37.569 out servicing electrical grids in southeast Michigan 00:28:37.569 --> 00:28:40.230 in the freezer weather we have at the moment. 00:28:41.690 --> 00:28:43.829 But it also became a small business owner in 00:28:43.829 --> 00:28:47.230 the home care business. Has a local visiting 00:28:47.230 --> 00:28:51.789 angels offices in southeast Michigan. He's been 00:28:51.789 --> 00:28:55.109 elected to the Michigan House of Representatives 00:28:55.109 --> 00:28:59.900 and is serving district 30. Got a family and 00:28:59.900 --> 00:29:03.119 a lot of active involvement in things like Disabled 00:29:03.119 --> 00:29:05.519 American Veterans, Veterans of Foreign Wars, 00:29:06.200 --> 00:29:08.200 Little Blessings Veterans and Community Outreach 00:29:08.200 --> 00:29:11.160 and the Rotary Club. Will, I don't know how you 00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:13.799 have time for it all, but again, the focus today 00:29:13.799 --> 00:29:16.640 will be on equine therapy. So again, thanks for 00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:21.240 joining us. No, I appreciate the introduction. 00:29:22.039 --> 00:29:25.599 Yeah, I got a lot of experiences and hopefully... 00:29:25.660 --> 00:29:27.759 you know that's that comes with a lot of baggage 00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:30.420 to it at times when you're talking combat tours 00:29:30.420 --> 00:29:33.200 and such but you know working with equine therapy 00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:35.359 and little blessings veteran outreach i sit on 00:29:35.359 --> 00:29:37.839 the board as the president currently for the 00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:41.140 last two years and so it's an honor to talk today 00:29:41.140 --> 00:29:44.140 about equine therapy well you you know let's 00:29:44.140 --> 00:29:46.940 jump off there because you mentioned you know 00:29:46.940 --> 00:29:50.680 uh that much time and the combat tours It's not 00:29:50.680 --> 00:29:53.220 unusual somebody has a little bit as you refer 00:29:53.220 --> 00:29:58.960 to it baggage PTS and in particular Tell us about 00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:02.059 what baggage you had and what led you to try 00:30:02.059 --> 00:30:05.640 equine therapy Wow, that's a loaded question, 00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:08.400 but you know they say nobody goes to war and 00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:11.440 comes back the same No, you know it took me three 00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:13.859 tours before I believed that to be honest. It 00:30:13.859 --> 00:30:18.299 was you know a lot of rejection of changes within 00:30:18.490 --> 00:30:20.950 you know, my own psyche, you know, you have physical 00:30:20.950 --> 00:30:23.490 issues, anyone that served 30 plus years in the 00:30:23.490 --> 00:30:25.650 military, you're going to have physical ailments 00:30:25.650 --> 00:30:29.829 and issues. But when you're faced with the situations 00:30:29.829 --> 00:30:33.630 and the environment that you're put into being 00:30:33.630 --> 00:30:37.410 in combat, that it also changes you mentally, 00:30:37.529 --> 00:30:42.150 whether you are aware or admitted or not. And 00:30:42.150 --> 00:30:44.930 so coming home, it was, you know, I was in Iraq 00:30:44.930 --> 00:30:48.690 in 03 and 04. I called the Wild West and, you 00:30:48.690 --> 00:30:52.349 know, came home and I thought I was the same. 00:30:52.869 --> 00:30:55.029 Looking back, I wasn't. You know, I went again 00:30:55.029 --> 00:30:58.809 in 2009, back to Iraq, and, you know, came home 00:30:58.809 --> 00:31:03.069 even more different, but yet refusing, you know, 00:31:03.069 --> 00:31:06.930 to admit that. I went to Afghanistan in 15, 14, 00:31:07.029 --> 00:31:10.470 15, and then when I came home, the wheels fell 00:31:10.470 --> 00:31:15.460 off. And I still refuse. you know, to get help. 00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:18.779 I refused to admit that I had a problem. It just 00:31:18.779 --> 00:31:21.980 caused expounded difficulties between family. 00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:24.700 You failed to mention I have nine children. My 00:31:24.700 --> 00:31:28.680 wife and I have nine together. All natural born, 00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:34.019 you know, all our own. Well, and your story up 00:31:34.019 --> 00:31:36.440 until the nine children is pretty typical. I 00:31:36.440 --> 00:31:41.579 mean, it's all the... guys and gals who've done 00:31:41.579 --> 00:31:45.039 these multiple rotations, you're gonna, things 00:31:45.039 --> 00:31:49.880 change and you may not believe that, but your 00:31:49.880 --> 00:31:53.119 family sees it and the family starts saying, 00:31:53.259 --> 00:31:55.500 hey man, you gotta get a little help, talk to 00:31:55.500 --> 00:31:57.940 somebody. And I suspect that's what was going 00:31:57.940 --> 00:32:02.380 on. I mean, there was a time or two with my spouse, 00:32:02.539 --> 00:32:05.759 Natalie, she's a saint, she's endured so much, 00:32:06.180 --> 00:32:08.400 that she said, you have to get help. And I would 00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:11.549 get help. to the degree that it satisfied her 00:32:11.549 --> 00:32:15.730 needs. But at the time, I take a time period 00:32:15.730 --> 00:32:21.490 after 2015 that for 10 plus years I lived. I 00:32:21.490 --> 00:32:25.329 lived with bitterness and with no regret for 00:32:25.329 --> 00:32:29.230 anything that I did. In 2020, I went back for 00:32:29.230 --> 00:32:32.960 my fourth tour, Iraq and Syria. you know honestly 00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:35.539 I went back I told my wife I was going back to 00:32:35.539 --> 00:32:39.140 get fixed you know as stupid as that sounds now 00:32:39.140 --> 00:32:42.440 but that was my mentality like I'm gonna go get 00:32:42.440 --> 00:32:47.119 fixed and you know I came back thinking I was 00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:50.980 fixed I got my last tour in and you know you 00:32:50.980 --> 00:32:53.059 mentioned my daughter wrote the book during that 00:32:53.059 --> 00:32:57.859 time I was deployed in 2020 -21 my family started 00:32:57.859 --> 00:33:01.009 going through little blessings my wife actually 00:33:01.009 --> 00:33:03.990 started before I deployed in 2020. For three 00:33:03.990 --> 00:33:07.130 months, she was going weekly to Little Blessings 00:33:07.130 --> 00:33:11.170 for horse equine therapy. And I didn't know she 00:33:11.170 --> 00:33:14.150 was even going until she told me after three 00:33:14.150 --> 00:33:19.410 months. And that's how irrelevant and detached 00:33:19.410 --> 00:33:22.029 I was for my family. You know, and I say that 00:33:22.029 --> 00:33:27.809 with regret now, but until really recently, I 00:33:27.809 --> 00:33:31.240 had no regrets on that. And even up until current 00:33:31.240 --> 00:33:34.200 point I you know my kids went through the program 00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:38.279 in 21 they started the kids program an 18 -week 00:33:38.279 --> 00:33:41.400 program the adult program is 50 weeks so it's 00:33:41.400 --> 00:33:46.579 a whole year long but when I came back from Iraq 00:33:46.579 --> 00:33:51.079 in 21 I saw my kids it helped me I started to 00:33:51.079 --> 00:33:53.539 get involved in Little Blessings but still did 00:33:53.539 --> 00:33:57.259 not did not address the issues the root issues 00:33:57.259 --> 00:34:02.740 of bitterness and PTSD and the anger and the 00:34:02.740 --> 00:34:07.579 lack of guilt. And then actually, December of 00:34:07.579 --> 00:34:10.460 last year, I enrolled into the program. So I'm 00:34:10.460 --> 00:34:12.559 actually new at the, you know, I was president 00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:15.519 of the organization, but yet, you know, having 00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:18.559 never been through the program. But last December, 00:34:18.780 --> 00:34:22.420 prior to Christmas, you know, we, we as a family 00:34:22.420 --> 00:34:26.480 get a point where I finally admitted, I need, 00:34:26.659 --> 00:34:30.420 I need help that I haven't been getting and so 00:34:30.420 --> 00:34:32.940 I'm actually about five weeks into the program 00:34:32.940 --> 00:34:36.219 right now so that that's kind of current that's 00:34:36.219 --> 00:34:39.960 25 years and two minutes yeah it's impossible 00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:43.639 to do justice to the story in the time we have 00:34:43.639 --> 00:34:46.960 here in this interview but I think it's important 00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:53.929 because people don't be surprised ashamed Rooted 00:34:53.929 --> 00:34:57.309 into the ground if if you don't you know quote 00:34:57.309 --> 00:35:00.170 -unquote fix yourself right away It takes years 00:35:00.170 --> 00:35:03.469 to get to the point Where you find something 00:35:03.469 --> 00:35:05.389 first off that you admit the hey I need to do 00:35:05.389 --> 00:35:07.150 something and you'll find something that works 00:35:07.150 --> 00:35:13.190 for you and for some people Equine therapy may 00:35:13.190 --> 00:35:15.849 be the thing that works now you live and your 00:35:15.849 --> 00:35:19.050 family lives in a Rural area you got a little 00:35:19.050 --> 00:35:25.170 you know you might call it a hobby farm But what 00:35:25.170 --> 00:35:28.789 led them, what led Natalie to equine therapy 00:35:28.789 --> 00:35:31.889 and why did you ultimately go, yeah, you know, 00:35:31.909 --> 00:35:36.250 maybe I need to get with the program. Well, what 00:35:36.250 --> 00:35:40.409 brought her to it was the inability to cope with 00:35:40.409 --> 00:35:44.530 what I wasn't coping with. That's what brought 00:35:44.530 --> 00:35:50.889 her to the table. And she met Jamie Paxson who 00:35:50.940 --> 00:35:56.840 who started Little Blessings in about 2018. And 00:35:56.840 --> 00:36:00.500 that's what drew Natalie to the program. And 00:36:00.500 --> 00:36:02.940 it gave her a lot of things in her toolbox on 00:36:02.940 --> 00:36:05.639 how to deal with a veteran being married to a 00:36:05.639 --> 00:36:09.440 veteran. She now leads a spouse group that meets 00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:13.400 every other week at Little Blessings. My kids 00:36:13.400 --> 00:36:15.760 get into the program. And when I came home at 00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:19.929 21, I saw my kids in a program. I remember crying, 00:36:20.230 --> 00:36:23.309 watching my kids, you know, seeing and talking 00:36:23.309 --> 00:36:25.590 to the mental health specialist, you know, that 00:36:25.590 --> 00:36:28.429 was explaining the issues, the problems that 00:36:28.429 --> 00:36:31.190 my kids were having. And at that point, I knew 00:36:31.190 --> 00:36:36.389 that my problems, my PTSD was in a sense being 00:36:36.389 --> 00:36:39.710 transcended to my family. Now, I wasn't to the 00:36:39.710 --> 00:36:44.369 point where I cared enough to fix myself, but 00:36:44.369 --> 00:36:47.150 I was success. What business I was a chief foreign 00:36:47.150 --> 00:36:50.010 officer for. Nobody's going to tell me what to 00:36:50.010 --> 00:36:52.610 do. You know, I was successful in the military 00:36:52.610 --> 00:36:57.070 as well as civilian life as a reservist. But 00:36:57.070 --> 00:36:59.849 bringing me to the table was, you know, we brought 00:36:59.849 --> 00:37:02.789 30 -some vets through this program, year -long 00:37:02.789 --> 00:37:06.710 program at Little Blessings. And it has changed 00:37:06.710 --> 00:37:10.369 the life of multiple families, all these families, 00:37:10.510 --> 00:37:13.349 not just the vet, but the whole family. Well, 00:37:13.349 --> 00:37:17.530 let me give the full name of it. It's Little 00:37:17.530 --> 00:37:20.050 Blessings Veterans and Community Outreach, if 00:37:20.050 --> 00:37:23.449 I've got it right. And Jamie Paxton, who you 00:37:23.449 --> 00:37:26.090 referred to, who I think is the executive director, 00:37:26.590 --> 00:37:29.489 she did 25 years in the United States Air Force 00:37:29.489 --> 00:37:32.989 and came out as a first sergeant. So again, somebody 00:37:32.989 --> 00:37:38.409 who's been there and knows the personality of 00:37:38.409 --> 00:37:41.190 somebody who says, I'm a chief warrant officer, 00:37:41.289 --> 00:37:46.039 what the hell are you gonna tell me? Right? Yeah. 00:37:46.619 --> 00:37:48.519 And we're the ones that have all the answers. 00:37:48.840 --> 00:37:51.059 If you've been in the army or the Marines, the 00:37:51.059 --> 00:37:54.280 warrant officers are the ones everyone goes to 00:37:54.280 --> 00:37:57.559 for help. We are the ones that are supposed to 00:37:57.559 --> 00:38:00.239 have the answers, but when we don't have the 00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:04.639 answers for ourselves, it's hard as a human being 00:38:04.639 --> 00:38:07.960 to admit that. So that was my problem. So what 00:38:07.960 --> 00:38:14.239 is it about the horses? Why equine therapy? Why 00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:16.300 not just go to the VA and talk to a mental health 00:38:16.300 --> 00:38:20.260 person? Why was it the equine therapy that drew 00:38:20.260 --> 00:38:25.199 you in? Well, for me, horses scare the crap out 00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:30.280 of me, so that's a start. And it's a challenge. 00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:35.179 Secondly, equine therapy, and specifically, eGala 00:38:35.179 --> 00:38:38.099 is the model that we follow. It's a nationally 00:38:38.099 --> 00:38:42.639 recognized model. It's not going out riding horses. 00:38:43.420 --> 00:38:48.480 It's not, you know, equestrian things. It's interacting 00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:51.179 with the horses, and horses have an innate ability. 00:38:51.260 --> 00:38:54.739 They're a fight or a flight animal. Their reactions 00:38:54.739 --> 00:38:56.840 are based off their instinct. Either they're 00:38:56.840 --> 00:39:01.280 going to fight or they're fleeing. And a lot 00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:05.300 of times, that's where vets end up getting. When 00:39:05.300 --> 00:39:09.059 I look at my history, coming back from tours, 00:39:10.179 --> 00:39:14.260 and the inability to deal with the issues at 00:39:14.260 --> 00:39:18.219 home, the children, the upheaval, the arguments, 00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:20.860 or different things that come up. We either fight 00:39:20.860 --> 00:39:24.559 or we flight. That's a military bred instinct. 00:39:25.059 --> 00:39:27.800 Horses have that same instinct. And so working 00:39:27.800 --> 00:39:31.159 with the horses, you're learning how, number 00:39:31.159 --> 00:39:33.619 one, to identify those problems that you have, 00:39:33.679 --> 00:39:35.960 but number two, how to manage those problems. 00:39:36.039 --> 00:39:39.039 And the horses, this unique ability to do that 00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:44.260 and to mirror your emotions your anxiety and 00:39:44.260 --> 00:39:47.199 It helps you regulate those things now. Obviously. 00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:49.500 I'm only five weeks into the program There's 00:39:49.500 --> 00:39:52.280 a lot that I haven't seen yet, but that's you 00:39:52.280 --> 00:39:55.840 know This is what it does for the veteran well 00:39:55.840 --> 00:39:58.079 And you've been around it though now for years 00:39:58.079 --> 00:40:01.059 through the family and I want to talk a little 00:40:01.059 --> 00:40:03.860 bit about so that you could do some bragging 00:40:03.860 --> 00:40:08.380 and on what it did for the kids and Anna in particular 00:40:08.380 --> 00:40:16.440 the direction that she took it. It changed my 00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:21.460 kids outlook because as the title of my daughter's 00:40:21.460 --> 00:40:25.880 book she wrote hope on four hooves. My family 00:40:25.880 --> 00:40:31.019 we're a very religious family we you know we're 00:40:31.019 --> 00:40:35.090 very We're Christian, we worship and we believe 00:40:35.090 --> 00:40:38.750 in God and we have faith. But in the situation 00:40:38.750 --> 00:40:41.829 with their father, I'll take my daughter was 00:40:41.829 --> 00:40:45.530 14 when she wrote the book. She didn't have a 00:40:45.530 --> 00:40:48.190 lot of hope that things were going to work out 00:40:48.190 --> 00:40:52.289 at that time. And through the equine therapy, 00:40:52.489 --> 00:40:55.869 it allowed my kids to learn how to regulate those 00:40:55.869 --> 00:40:59.150 emotions that were being passed on to them and 00:40:59.150 --> 00:41:02.269 to bring hope. back to my family you know right 00:41:02.269 --> 00:41:05.030 alongside with with God was there the whole time 00:41:05.030 --> 00:41:07.269 but you know there's the physical and the spiritual 00:41:07.269 --> 00:41:10.170 and and and sometimes the two you know one's 00:41:10.170 --> 00:41:12.929 weaker than the other depending on the situation 00:41:12.929 --> 00:41:16.590 and physically and emotionally my kids were were 00:41:16.590 --> 00:41:20.730 were falling apart because of the anxiety that 00:41:20.730 --> 00:41:23.690 I had that I was creating in them and so you 00:41:23.690 --> 00:41:25.730 know them going through the program and my wife 00:41:25.730 --> 00:41:28.210 going through the program it allowed them to 00:41:28.210 --> 00:41:31.579 to to get hope back again that things are going 00:41:31.579 --> 00:41:34.659 to be okay and there's a way out of this darkness 00:41:34.659 --> 00:41:38.599 that we have been placed into and this is a this 00:41:38.599 --> 00:41:42.679 is a uh if you will private non -profit and I 00:41:42.679 --> 00:41:44.480 want to point that out because of the family 00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:47.420 aspect of this uh veterans can go to the VA for 00:41:47.420 --> 00:41:49.880 mental health care but does but VA doesn't do 00:41:49.880 --> 00:41:54.219 anything for the family it it's not designed, 00:41:54.659 --> 00:41:58.619 authorized, funded for family mental health care. 00:41:59.260 --> 00:42:01.940 So things like Little Blessings Veteran Outreach 00:42:01.940 --> 00:42:04.880 are important and supporting those are important 00:42:04.880 --> 00:42:07.840 because it's a family affair, not just a veteran 00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:10.360 affair. And let me tell you that, veteran radio 00:42:10.360 --> 00:42:13.300 listeners, we're talking to Will Brock, chief. 00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:18.019 Warrant Officer for 30 years in the army in his 00:42:18.019 --> 00:42:20.559 and his family's experience with equine therapy 00:42:20.559 --> 00:42:22.679 Little blessings veteran outreach. You can find 00:42:22.679 --> 00:42:27.019 it on the web at LB veteran outreach org if you 00:42:27.019 --> 00:42:29.199 if you want some more information as I said, 00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:32.579 it's a founder and executive director is a 25 00:42:32.579 --> 00:42:35.480 year Air Force veteran so she knows what she's 00:42:35.480 --> 00:42:43.369 talking about Will as you Begin the process of 00:42:43.369 --> 00:42:48.750 going through the program. Is it something that 00:42:48.750 --> 00:42:53.969 you sort of begin to see changes in yourself 00:42:53.969 --> 00:42:59.369 or recognizing patterns before they get to developed? 00:42:59.949 --> 00:43:02.429 What do you expect to get out of the program? 00:43:03.730 --> 00:43:07.429 Right now I'm learning to recognize the patterns 00:43:07.429 --> 00:43:11.949 of the horse. So the emotions or reactions of 00:43:11.949 --> 00:43:18.329 the animal, it takes an eye. So, you know, I 00:43:18.329 --> 00:43:20.269 used to make fun of my wife, you know, talking 00:43:20.269 --> 00:43:23.570 to, going to talk to Mr. Ed, you know, the horse. 00:43:24.690 --> 00:43:27.329 You know, what's he gonna teach us? What's he 00:43:27.329 --> 00:43:29.309 gonna teach you? You know, how does he talk, 00:43:29.309 --> 00:43:32.510 et cetera. You know, but the horses have definite 00:43:32.510 --> 00:43:35.829 reactions based off their emotions. Number one 00:43:35.829 --> 00:43:39.199 is realizing what is making you know the reactions 00:43:39.199 --> 00:43:41.679 the good and the bad reactions in that animal 00:43:41.679 --> 00:43:45.179 that's what i'm in the process of learning right 00:43:45.179 --> 00:43:48.780 now and to regulate and to build trust with that 00:43:48.780 --> 00:43:54.739 creature in order for that creature to you know 00:43:54.739 --> 00:43:59.340 help me it's it's you know it sounds you know 00:43:59.340 --> 00:44:02.739 sometimes it's it's voodoo sounding but but it 00:44:02.739 --> 00:44:06.590 it literally has changed the lives of of many, 00:44:06.590 --> 00:44:10.730 many veterans just in our own community. And 00:44:10.730 --> 00:44:15.469 again, our organization, the VA, I would question 00:44:15.469 --> 00:44:18.369 whether the VA mental health helps a lot, but 00:44:18.369 --> 00:44:21.110 you can talk to somebody once a month or every 00:44:21.110 --> 00:44:26.090 other month or every quarter. You're discussing 00:44:26.090 --> 00:44:28.869 problems and trying to fix problems, but little 00:44:28.869 --> 00:44:31.860 blessings encompasses the entire family. and 00:44:31.860 --> 00:44:35.340 the entire psyche of the person. It's a family 00:44:35.340 --> 00:44:39.559 affair. We have the family dinners once a month. 00:44:39.599 --> 00:44:41.579 We have the children's program. It's a place 00:44:41.579 --> 00:44:43.619 where veterans, when they're done with the program, 00:44:43.940 --> 00:44:48.119 they still continue to come to the ranch to interact 00:44:48.119 --> 00:44:50.219 with the animal that they went through the program 00:44:50.219 --> 00:44:53.920 with. And there's support. There's other veterans 00:44:53.920 --> 00:44:56.860 there that have been through the same program. 00:44:57.099 --> 00:44:59.719 or currently in the program that are there to 00:44:59.719 --> 00:45:03.840 also interact with that veteran. It gives a camaraderie 00:45:03.840 --> 00:45:08.000 ship as well as the family getting that support 00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:12.320 mechanism as well. And again, it's all supported 00:45:12.320 --> 00:45:16.099 by private funds. Yeah, the horse picks up on 00:45:16.099 --> 00:45:20.000 your aggression, right? I mean, if you're hostile, 00:45:20.599 --> 00:45:23.619 it reacts a certain way. If you can calm yourself, 00:45:23.739 --> 00:45:26.920 it calms itself. Is that what you're talking 00:45:26.920 --> 00:45:29.920 about when you say I'm just learning to read 00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:33.940 the horse Yes, yes, sir. Yeah, if you have a 00:45:33.940 --> 00:45:37.460 high anxiety the horse is going to exhibit those 00:45:37.460 --> 00:45:40.039 same symptoms because they pick up because they're 00:45:40.039 --> 00:45:42.699 a fight -or -flight animal they they are unsure 00:45:42.699 --> 00:45:46.000 of your feeling, you know your your anxiety they 00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:48.460 can feel now that I don't know how they do it, 00:45:48.460 --> 00:45:52.000 but they do it and and Their reaction is either 00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:53.880 they're gonna fight you or they're gonna flight 00:45:54.090 --> 00:45:55.949 you know, they're going to flee from you. They're 00:45:55.949 --> 00:45:59.050 trying to decide what they're going to do. And 00:45:59.050 --> 00:46:01.869 so I'm in the portion of breathing those emotions 00:46:01.869 --> 00:46:04.070 of the horse, you know, but those are really 00:46:04.070 --> 00:46:06.929 truly my emotions that are coming out in the 00:46:06.929 --> 00:46:09.750 horse. Now this little Blessing Veterans Outreach 00:46:09.750 --> 00:46:13.449 is in Monroe County, just a little bit north 00:46:13.449 --> 00:46:17.710 of the Ohio State line. But these kind of therapy 00:46:17.710 --> 00:46:20.849 equine therapy programs are all over the country. 00:46:21.230 --> 00:46:24.550 And there are some I don't know if I'd call it 00:46:24.550 --> 00:46:28.329 standards or groups. I know one of them's a professional 00:46:28.329 --> 00:46:31.789 association of therapeutic horsemanship international. 00:46:33.530 --> 00:46:36.670 And you mentioned, you know, at Little Blessings 00:46:36.670 --> 00:46:41.750 they're following a sort of a time -tested. Yeah. 00:46:42.090 --> 00:46:44.630 EGALA, EGALA model. And there's an association, 00:46:44.730 --> 00:46:48.610 EGALA, it's nationally certified. There's EGALA, 00:46:48.769 --> 00:46:51.380 people that practice the EGALA. Gallup model 00:46:51.380 --> 00:46:54.360 throughout the U .S. There's only a very small 00:46:54.360 --> 00:46:57.099 handful that specifically do it strictly for 00:46:57.099 --> 00:47:01.599 veterans. And that's, again, if you're listening 00:47:01.599 --> 00:47:04.820 to this or on Veterans Radio or the podcast and 00:47:04.820 --> 00:47:06.980 you're thinking, hey, I got this, this might 00:47:06.980 --> 00:47:09.260 work for a friend of mine or they ought to just 00:47:09.260 --> 00:47:11.760 look into it or maybe it's something I'd be interested 00:47:11.760 --> 00:47:15.360 in, there is, there are resources available. 00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:17.719 You might have to search them out a little bit. 00:47:19.289 --> 00:47:23.250 you know, by going onto the internet or maybe 00:47:23.250 --> 00:47:28.510 talking to a VA social worker and getting a referral, 00:47:28.929 --> 00:47:31.530 again, this is gonna be on the private side of 00:47:31.530 --> 00:47:35.070 things. It's not a VA hospital benefit, that's 00:47:35.070 --> 00:47:38.309 for damn sure. No, it is not. I mean, we would 00:47:38.309 --> 00:47:41.769 love for it to be at some point, you know, supported 00:47:41.769 --> 00:47:45.139 by the VA and they see that... They see the benefit 00:47:45.139 --> 00:47:47.260 of it because there's been conversations even 00:47:47.260 --> 00:47:50.460 at the local level with the Ann Arbor VA. But 00:47:50.460 --> 00:47:54.099 it has yet to be adopted by the VA as one of 00:47:54.099 --> 00:47:58.880 their methods. But we'll stay optimistic. And 00:47:58.880 --> 00:48:02.880 a gala for those of us who are functionally illiterate 00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:05.639 in this area, which I am, it's Equine Assisted 00:48:05.639 --> 00:48:11.800 Psychotherapy, E -A -G -A -L -A dot org. where 00:48:11.800 --> 00:48:14.480 again you can find it's got a link for find a 00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:17.420 program for example and and you can get more 00:48:17.420 --> 00:48:21.119 information if you're down in Louisiana or you're 00:48:21.119 --> 00:48:26.860 over in New York you can probably find something 00:48:26.860 --> 00:48:33.340 nearby that is worth giving a go and is it a 00:48:33.340 --> 00:48:37.940 combination both will of kind of Working with 00:48:37.940 --> 00:48:40.679 the horse and working with a mental health therapist? 00:48:41.619 --> 00:48:44.099 Yes, there's a mental health, there's a mental 00:48:44.099 --> 00:48:47.539 health therapist at the sessions. There's an 00:48:47.539 --> 00:48:52.059 EGALA certified handler at the sessions. And 00:48:52.059 --> 00:48:54.780 you know, it's a pretty strict program. Each 00:48:54.780 --> 00:48:59.539 session is made to address a slightly different 00:48:59.539 --> 00:49:02.019 avenue, you know, or a different step in the 00:49:02.019 --> 00:49:05.699 program. You know, you lead the horses and you're 00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:08.079 your commands you know you're given commands 00:49:08.079 --> 00:49:11.860 to give to the horse as you lead it and on the 00:49:11.860 --> 00:49:15.260 horse will obey or not obey based off your level 00:49:15.260 --> 00:49:20.179 of anxiety or command you know your confidence 00:49:20.179 --> 00:49:22.980 level you know there's so many variables within 00:49:22.980 --> 00:49:26.840 it but but it's proven to work and help and and 00:49:26.840 --> 00:49:30.340 we see it working each and every day currently 00:49:30.340 --> 00:49:35.849 at our place we have 15 I want to say 15 or 16 00:49:35.849 --> 00:49:38.929 veterans in the program right now and there's 00:49:38.929 --> 00:49:41.150 four different phases so they're you know they're 00:49:41.150 --> 00:49:44.409 not all it's individually individual sessions 00:49:44.409 --> 00:49:47.530 but they're all different times of the week in 00:49:47.530 --> 00:49:52.030 different phases. This has been very interesting 00:49:52.030 --> 00:49:55.710 and again I think most veteran radio listeners 00:49:55.710 --> 00:49:59.590 wouldn't know about this Will Brook. They wouldn't 00:49:59.590 --> 00:50:02.409 be able to maybe suggest it to somebody who this 00:50:02.409 --> 00:50:05.550 is perfect for. So I really appreciate the time 00:50:05.550 --> 00:50:08.929 that you've given us today to talk about how 00:50:08.929 --> 00:50:12.530 it's helped the family, as well as dad finally 00:50:12.530 --> 00:50:15.409 getting on board and going, okay, I'm gonna suck 00:50:15.409 --> 00:50:20.190 it up and do this myself and see the value. They 00:50:20.190 --> 00:50:23.349 were probably surprised that dad finally came 00:50:23.349 --> 00:50:25.570 around to it, but I bet they're all pretty happy. 00:50:27.199 --> 00:50:29.800 I've gotten a lot of positive comments, Jim, 00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:34.559 not just from my family, but also other veterans 00:50:34.559 --> 00:50:39.960 that are proud or thankful that I took this step. 00:50:39.980 --> 00:50:42.780 Because I am kind of a public figure. I'm a state 00:50:42.780 --> 00:50:47.619 house rep member. I'm pretty famous in my area. 00:50:47.639 --> 00:50:51.880 I'm a business owner. And I don't want to say 00:50:51.880 --> 00:50:54.420 I'm humble, but it takes a lot of humility. to 00:50:54.420 --> 00:50:56.699 admit that you need help. And I've had a lot 00:50:56.699 --> 00:50:59.380 of veterans reach out to me and say thank you 00:50:59.380 --> 00:51:02.760 for what you've done. Absolutely, and I want 00:51:02.760 --> 00:51:05.420 to thank you for taking time to share this story 00:51:05.420 --> 00:51:07.820 and give a little hope out there to the veteran 00:51:07.820 --> 00:51:10.619 community and maybe looking at equine therapy 00:51:10.619 --> 00:51:12.840 is something that they ought to do. Will, thanks 00:51:12.840 --> 00:51:15.760 for your time today. Thank you, Jim. I appreciate 00:51:15.760 --> 00:51:19.920 you, sir. In the few minutes we have left, I 00:51:19.920 --> 00:51:22.159 certainly hope you enjoyed learning more about 00:51:22.159 --> 00:51:24.880 equine therapy, but I also want to tell you about 00:51:24.880 --> 00:51:27.480 the Congressional Medal of Honor Society Convention, 00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:30.039 which will be held in Detroit from September 00:51:30.039 --> 00:51:34.980 29th to October 3rd, 2026. It features the largest 00:51:34.980 --> 00:51:37.440 gathering of living Medal of Honor recipients. 00:51:38.519 --> 00:51:41.179 The convention will bring together as many as 00:51:41.179 --> 00:51:44.940 60 living Medal of Honor recipients for a series 00:51:44.940 --> 00:51:47.179 of public and private events aimed at sharing 00:51:47.179 --> 00:51:50.239 their stories and promoting the values of the 00:51:50.239 --> 00:51:52.460 Medal of Honor such as commitment, integrity, 00:51:54.079 --> 00:51:57.480 courage, sacrifice, citizenship, and patriotism. 00:51:58.500 --> 00:52:02.380 The event or convention also includes community 00:52:02.380 --> 00:52:05.400 engagement activities allowing recipients to 00:52:05.400 --> 00:52:07.880 connect with local students, veterans, and active 00:52:07.880 --> 00:52:10.980 military members. This convention really represents 00:52:10.980 --> 00:52:14.079 a unique opportunity. The first time in the city's 00:52:14.079 --> 00:52:17.699 or Metro Detroit's area history that it's been 00:52:17.699 --> 00:52:20.659 able to bring this kind of convention to the 00:52:20.659 --> 00:52:23.679 area to honor its military heroes and foster 00:52:23.679 --> 00:52:26.340 a spirit of patriotism and community engagement. 00:52:26.960 --> 00:52:29.719 You can learn more about the convention by going 00:52:29.719 --> 00:52:33.179 to medalofhonoredetroit .com. If you're interested 00:52:33.179 --> 00:52:36.239 in sponsoring or helping out as a volunteer, 00:52:36.300 --> 00:52:40.280 you can go to that site and put in some information 00:52:40.280 --> 00:52:44.480 and learn how you or your group or company can 00:52:44.480 --> 00:52:47.900 participate in this incredible opportunity to 00:52:47.900 --> 00:52:50.480 recognize the Congressional Medal of Honor Society 00:52:50.480 --> 00:52:53.760 Convention. One of the men that we're expecting 00:52:53.760 --> 00:52:58.960 to appear is Ronald Ray. He's an interesting 00:52:58.960 --> 00:53:04.559 veteran American. He grew up in rural Georgia. 00:53:05.519 --> 00:53:08.860 He was a high school dropout. He went into the 00:53:08.860 --> 00:53:14.780 U .S. Army Special Forces. His platoon got overwhelmed 00:53:14.780 --> 00:53:18.659 with enemy fire in Vietnam, but his calm leadership 00:53:18.659 --> 00:53:22.840 and absolute resolve to not abandon his soldiers 00:53:22.840 --> 00:53:26.480 turned the chaos into survival. At one point, 00:53:26.480 --> 00:53:29.880 he used his own body to shield a wounded comrade. 00:53:29.900 --> 00:53:32.139 At another, he had to run across open ground 00:53:32.139 --> 00:53:35.320 to retrieve a machine gun essential to the platoon's 00:53:35.320 --> 00:53:38.920 defense. He continued in the army and ultimately 00:53:38.920 --> 00:53:42.420 became a lieutenant colonel before retiring. 00:53:42.840 --> 00:53:45.900 He went on to get all kinds of education after 00:53:45.900 --> 00:53:49.219 dropping out from high school. And this is kind 00:53:49.219 --> 00:53:53.019 of the amazing part. His reputation for integrity 00:53:53.019 --> 00:53:56.280 and strategic thinking quickly carried him into 00:53:56.280 --> 00:53:59.420 public service roles, including becoming a White 00:53:59.420 --> 00:54:02.280 House fellow, serving as special assistant to 00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:05.070 the secretary of commerce. and being appointed 00:54:05.070 --> 00:54:07.250 as the Assistant Secretary of Human Resources 00:54:07.250 --> 00:54:11.250 and Administrations at the VA. An incredible 00:54:11.250 --> 00:54:14.110 career and incredible patriot who'll be in Detroit 00:54:14.110 --> 00:54:17.590 for the convention of the Congressional Medal 00:54:17.590 --> 00:54:22.889 of Honor Society in the fall of 2026. So you 00:54:22.889 --> 00:54:25.449 can learn more by going to Congressional Medal 00:54:25.449 --> 00:54:30.070 of Honor Society site, cmohs .org, and remember 00:54:30.070 --> 00:54:34.599 to visit medalofhonoredetroit .com. As part of 00:54:34.599 --> 00:54:36.679 that Medal of Honor celebration, we're working 00:54:36.679 --> 00:54:40.679 on Veterans Radio to pull together all of the 00:54:40.679 --> 00:54:42.860 interviews we've done over the years with various 00:54:42.860 --> 00:54:45.739 Medal of Honor recipients. We've actually talked 00:54:45.739 --> 00:54:47.639 to quite a few of them. They're interesting stories, 00:54:47.639 --> 00:54:51.340 and we're going to make a spot on our veteransradio 00:54:51.340 --> 00:54:54.159 .org website. If you go to the Listen, we're 00:54:54.159 --> 00:54:56.880 going to have a Medal of Honor. Pull that bar 00:54:56.880 --> 00:54:59.539 down, you'll find the Medal of Honor link, and 00:54:59.539 --> 00:55:04.670 there we will put all kinds of prior interviews 00:55:04.670 --> 00:55:07.230 we've done with Medal Honor recipients or about 00:55:07.230 --> 00:55:11.349 them. So it's kind of an exciting time to be 00:55:11.349 --> 00:55:14.969 listening to Veterans Radio and participating. 00:55:15.550 --> 00:55:17.809 We would hope that you'd participate by maybe 00:55:17.809 --> 00:55:20.809 being a sponsor of Veterans Radio this year. 00:55:21.289 --> 00:55:26.409 It's always a challenge to have enough dollars 00:55:26.409 --> 00:55:30.639 in the bank. to do this job, and we really do 00:55:30.639 --> 00:55:34.219 appreciate our sponsors, in particular our local 00:55:34.219 --> 00:55:37.000 sponsors. You don't have to contribute a lot. 00:55:37.039 --> 00:55:39.079 You can do it on a monthly basis, or maybe if 00:55:39.079 --> 00:55:40.679 you're a business out there, you can take on 00:55:40.679 --> 00:55:44.119 a little bigger role. We want to thank our local 00:55:44.119 --> 00:55:46.960 VSOs, Vietnam Veterans of America, Charles S. 00:55:47.059 --> 00:55:50.820 Kettles, Chapter 310, VFW Graf O 'Hara, Post 00:55:50.820 --> 00:55:55.829 423, American Legion, Post 46. all in Ann Arbor 00:55:55.829 --> 00:55:59.250 that continue to support Dale and myself as we're 00:55:59.250 --> 00:56:02.809 involved in this endeavor. So go to Facebook 00:56:02.809 --> 00:56:05.309 to check us out. Go to veteransradio .org to 00:56:05.309 --> 00:56:08.630 follow us or donate. And we really do appreciate 00:56:08.630 --> 00:56:11.809 the ideas that we get from you in terms of content 00:56:11.809 --> 00:56:14.650 or people we ought to talk to. So send us an 00:56:14.650 --> 00:56:17.530 email. We're glad to do it or pop it on Facebook. 00:56:18.070 --> 00:56:21.860 We'll track it there or send us a message. Every 00:56:21.860 --> 00:56:25.260 Tuesday we put up a new podcast, something new 00:56:25.260 --> 00:56:27.960 that hasn't been played yet. You can check that 00:56:27.960 --> 00:56:31.320 out. Those podcasts may or may not make their 00:56:31.320 --> 00:56:33.960 way onto the airwaves based on all the other 00:56:33.960 --> 00:56:36.139 content that we have. So it's something that 00:56:36.139 --> 00:56:38.719 you ought to set for a weekly basis and listen 00:56:38.719 --> 00:56:41.940 in. I think you'd find it useful. Well, I'm Jim 00:56:41.940 --> 00:56:44.280 Fossone and it's been a pleasure to bring you 00:56:44.280 --> 00:56:46.780 these interviews on equine therapy and the Medal 00:56:46.780 --> 00:56:50.489 of Honor Society. And until next time on Veterans 00:56:50.489 --> 00:56:54.230 Radio, you are dismissed.