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Podcasts. We post something new every week, and
you're going to find it informative. Today we're
going to talk to an Air Force veteran and an
Army veteran. Both of them have been involved
in equine therapy in a couple of different ways
and we're going to bring this to you maybe so
that you can learn what equine therapy is. That's
dealing with horses by the way. But also you
may find that this is something that is of interest
to you or a friend as maybe an option to deal
with some issues. Equine therapy is practiced
all around the nation. One conversation's coming
from Colorado, another one's coming from Michigan,
and there are organizations specific to this
issue that we'll talk about. So listen in about
equine therapy. We want to welcome back to Veterans
Radio Colonel Michelle Rule, Air Force veteran.
Michelle, welcome back. Thank you. Well, we're
glad to have you. We'll talk more about your
military career at the end, because it is kind
of fascinating. Well, you're involved in a nonprofit
called Stable Strides. And folks can learn more
about it by going to stablestrides .org. It's
involved in equine therapy. So Michelle, you've
been involved in this since you were a cadet
at the Air Force Academy. So a few years ago,
you might say, Couple decades Tell us how you
got involved and what equine therapy is It actually
goes back prior to my military history when I
was growing up in Detroit I used to go up north
in Michigan to a horse camp and at that horse
camp it was run by a church They did a few different
programs that could help teens that had gone
through transition or troubling times And I used
to volunteer to help feed and muck out stalls
and lead the horses. And I thought, well, that's
interesting how a horse interacts with someone
who's going through some mental health challenges.
But I'll never see that again. And then it turns
out I went out to the Air Force Academy in Colorado.
And in our very limited time, we were allowed
to go do volunteer projects. And I heard of an
equine therapy center, which used to be called
X1911, which addresses doing miracles for a community.
At that time it was called Pike's Peak Therapeutic
Riding Center and I had to borrow an upperclassman's
car at the Air Force Academy. I would drive 40
minutes out and I just again volunteered to be
a horse leader in what's called a sidewalker.
A sidewalker is someone who helps someone who's
in a wheelchair mount onto a horse and you hold
on to the lower half so that they can feel riding
and what walking feels like, but it takes a sidewalker
on either side. And there's an accreditation
body called PATH. and that's a professional association
of therapeutic horsemanship international. It's
an accreditation body that does certifications.
So I thought, well, you know, I'll get a couple
certifications, but I probably won't see this
again. As it turned out, every military base
that I was stationed at as a pilot within 20
minutes, there was an equine therapy center.
But over the last two decades, it wasn't well
known and there wasn't a lot of evidence based
research. It just seemed sort of an alternative
therapy that might be for some people, but not
for others. But I always found a place. For instance,
when I was stationed at Beale flying the MC -12,
there was a therapy center about 20 minutes outside
the South Gate, and I was able to work with them
called Warrior Soul. When I was in Virginia,
of course, that has a lot of horse history, but
I was able to find a therapy center, also Little
Rock, Arkansas, and then, of course, Colorado.
So I kept up my certifications, thinking I would
do it part -time, and I did for a while. I'm
a therapeutic riding instructor, so I can help
people who have different types of disabilities,
whether that's speech, occupational, physical
therapy, it's called hippotherapy on a horse.
And then I also started digging into other types
of work with horses, including mental health.
So I also have a certification equine specialist
in mental health and learning. Long title, we
shorten it to ES for equine specialist. And I
combined that with being I'm now a life coach
that helps veterans and military members deal
with addiction, recovery, grief, and suicidal
ideations. And the reason I started moving towards
mental health with horses is I was noticing at
every single base, there would be people coming
back from Iraq and Afghanistan who didn't want
to do traditional talk therapy. But they were
willing to go out and work with animals. And
I thought, well, I'll just sort of stay involved
peripherally. Well, after my 21 -year military
career, I recently retired. And I was doing some
part -time work with now called Stable Strides.
It's under its third name change. I was just
doing Mondays and Tuesdays and I was working
with some children and I started noticing that
we didn't have the same veteran and military
population that we had over the last two decades.
And so I joined the board. I joined the board
of stable strides. And I thought, well, that
might be a way to help. I was recently elected
to a school board. I'm on another board at Mount
Carmel Veterans Service Center. So I thought
from the executive level, I can help expand our
services back to serving the 330 ,000 veterans
we have in Colorado, 7 % of our state. But we
also have 30 ,000 active duty and reserve military
members here from all over the country. And I
get more phone calls a day requesting these services,
which we can get into in a minute. But the point
is the demand is high and people are looking
for this type of therapeutic environment as they're
coming back with moral injury and PTS. After
I was on the board for a little bit, the previous
executive director resigned with some family
issues, and so we looked around the room going,
where are we going to find an immediate executive
director who can work with veterans and military,
who can start now, and can expand our program?
And I thought, well, that's hard to find. Turns
out... Well, in the Air Force, he volunteered.
So, you know, come on. You should have known
better what this was going to get you into. I
do, so now I am the executive director of Stable
Strives. Talk a little bit about, because there
is now more research and we're learning more,
maybe it's just getting more exposure to equine
therapy, what is it between a horse and a person
who's having their own challenges that sort of
is a connection that makes this work for some
folks? Yeah, I can put it in a nutshell that
our ancestors used horses quite a bit because
they knew something that we have sort of forgotten
in our kind of modern Western medicine. And that's
that a horse, it mirrors human behavior. But
what a horse can't do that humans are very good
at doing is they can't hide their true feelings
or anxiety. So they are part of a herd. And horses
just want to know all the time, am I safe? So
they turn to humans as part of their herd as
long as they feel safe. But when they don't feel
safe, they act out. So they may show anxiety,
which we can see in their ears and in their body,
in their behavior, their breathing. The horses
also have the mentality of about a four to seven
year old child, and they can sense our heartbeat,
human anxiety, and our behavior at up to four
to five feet away. So what a horse offers for
you is a mirror to what you're trying to hold
in and compartmentalize. And you may not want
to sit on a couch and do traditional talk therapy.
So what we do with equine therapy is you will
have a client work with a horse and with a specialist.
And then we ask the horse and the client to sort
of lead this session. And it's not that there's
no objective. There's very clear objective. But
I'll give an actually concrete example. I worked
with a gentleman from Fort Carson who was a sergeant
who was really struggling with anger management
and with domestic abuse. And he knew that he
was being violent towards his spouse. but he
couldn't quite put a finger on when it was coming
up. He would come home and feel like he was calm
and he could handle being with his spouse, but
something would trigger him after a couple tours
in Iraq. So I chose a horse for him that did
have high anxiety. It was very high spirited,
but it was kind. And all I said was, hey, go
grab that horse. Go try to go bridle that horse
and bring it to you. And the horse would back
away. and wouldn't get anywhere near him. And
this guy had horse experience. And he kept saying,
I don't understand why I have ridden. I know
how to do this. How come he won't come near me?
I didn't have to say much because I watched as
he tried to do some deep breathing and calm himself
down. The horse would approach. And as soon as
he would start to walk towards the horse again,
the horse would back up. And immediately he looked
at me and he said, I didn't realize I was giving
off this much anger, anxiety. And he said, is
this how my wife feels? Wow. So that's powerful.
He came to that conclusion and realized he was
putting out this anxiety, but the horse can't
hide it. Like we wear a mask, we hide behind,
I'm fine. I can handle it. Well, they don't do
that because everything's a predator. So they
have to communicate in a herd to say danger.
And so they give us a mirror to our own challenges
and our own mental health struggles, which even
I have participated in. And I'd be happy to share
how it helped me as well. Well, we'll come back
to that for a moment. But I think this is one
of these things, and we've been talking to veterans
on Veterans Radio for 20 plus years now. There's
no one silver magic bullet that deals with the
problems veterans may have on emotional or anger
or PTSD. So you have to find the therapy or the
approach that the veteran's comfortable with.
And I think at the VA for a long time, they just
take these pills, that's it, one size fits all.
But that's where equine therapy comes in. For
some folks, this may be the right therapy that
works for them, that they can connect with while
they didn't connect with a variety of other things.
And is that kind of what you see as well? I am
seeing, it's just another mode, it's another
tool in the kit, but for the type of person that
is generally drawn towards the military and towards
operation and towards relationship and towards
being a protector, all of those come out when
you're working with a 2 ,000 pound animal that
might be bigger than you, because there's that
instinct for us as humans to protect, is their
part, the animal's part of our herd, part of
our squadron, part of our battalion. But at the
same time, that animal is also looking to us
to provide something and clearly communicate.
If you try to hide or lie to the animal, it knows
and it won't come towards you and it won't build
that relationship. So it's just a different modality
and it doesn't include Western medicine, which
you could augment if your doctor says that that's
correct. But this is more, how do I work through
some of that energy, some of the trigger, some
of the PTS? And even grief. Horses are animals
that grieve when one is removed or one passes
away or when they're separated. They stand and
they look for the other. They'll stand in the
spot that they were. They'll eat in the same
trough and just look for their member. So they
really understand that group mentality when a
group is sort of separated. And it's just a modality
that works for a lot of people that are already
drawn to a military lifestyle. But it doesn't
require sitting still. You don't have to sit
down and talk about your feelings. You can act
them out. You can ride. You can touch. You can
actually express emotion. And it doesn't even
require talking for a lot of this. And we're
talking to Air Force retired Colonel Michelle
Rule, who's the CEO of stablestrides .org in
Colorado, about equine therapy. So these animals
are, as you mentioned, minigots, big, sizable.
Their care is costly. I know from reviewing stablestrides
.org's website, it has an operating budget of
about a million dollars for, I'm not sure how
many horses, I think there's 10 or 12 or something,
but this is an expensive proposition for a non
-profit. How do you keep it going financially?
You know there's a positive outcome for people,
but still it takes a lot of resources to do that.
It does. This is one of the most expensive nonprofits.
It's a large animal that eats and then has vet
bills and they eat a lot. We have it down to
grants and donor funding, but to be honest, every
time the horse comes out of this stall, it's
about $200 for just coming out. That's overhead
operating costs of running a farm and a ranch.
We do have 15 horses, but three of those are
mini. Mini horses are about the size of my great
Pyrenees, they're smaller. Even those have therapeutic
value, having a small horse to work with, and
children love it as well. So what we've been
really dependent on over the last two decades,
they've actually been around for 44 years, but
for the last two decades specifically has been
a lot of VA funding, adaptive sports. There's
been all sorts of private donors, but as you
know, there's donor fatigue. There's also a focus
over the last year that's been on food scarcity
and rightly so. But the mental health of my generation
of veterans that are coming home from 20 years
of war in Afghanistan and in Iraq, What we don't
want is what happened in Vietnam where we weren't
prepared for the mental health challenges of
our veterans coming home. Now we know better.
So how do we do better? And part of that is this
type of therapeutic work is helping for moral
injury and grief as well. I mean, my generation,
I was working in the White House the night Afghanistan
fell. And I have many people coming to me going,
I still have my interpreter in Afghanistan. I'm
feeling all of this sort of grief and I can't
get them out. And so we actually have horses
that help process some of that grief and also
loss from the war. But if we want to do better,
it means having about 12 to 15 horse capacity
to be able to do the services. And each horse
is about $10 ,000 a year. So we look for corporate
sponsors. We're always looking for someone to
sponsor an entire horse for 10 or a partial horse.
and help with those payments. And honestly, I
don't take a paycheck as the executive director.
Right now, I feel like my heart is in giving
that back so that we can give scholarships to
our military. But the other thing that we're
really struggling with is the cost of having
a therapist that accepts TRICARE. So for our
active duty members here, we have seven military
bases right here in Colorado, five within driving
distance from my Equine Center. And so I get
calls every morning from the military bases saying,
can you take someone? And right now we can only
accept, we have one therapist who takes TRICARE
for children, which is very important, taking
care of our military members, children who are
experiencing secondary effects of their parents'
trauma and TTS. But then also we used to have
therapists who could accept TRICARE, but as you
can imagine, a nonprofit that has to feed horses
and keep the lights on a ranch, we don't have
the same funding opportunities to be able to
fully pay for a therapist that's in private practice.
So this has to be someone who we can pay through
grants and donor funding, but they also love
working with our military veteran population.
They choose to do it. They choose to do it through
a nonprofit. So we also are looking for people
that might be listening to this. They go, I could
do that for four hours on a Friday. And then
we're looking for those donors to help supplement
the cost. It cost about $200 per session to pay
out of pocket. And we know that for a lot of
our military members, that's just it's a high
cost, but the return on investment is life saving.
Well, and I want to suggest to our veteran radio
listeners, if you're an individual or a corporation
or a foundation, you know, somebody who might
be thinking that they could support equine therapy,
go to the stable strides dot org. You can. see
their tax information. There's a lot of financial
transparency there, which I was glad to see.
I'm sure they can reach out to you, Michelle,
as the executive director there. But let's find
ways to keep these kinds of programs available
at a cost or a reasonable cost or no cost to
our veterans and their families. I love the fact
that you're helping veterans children of veterans
as well, because they so often get left out of
the deal, right? Maybe mom or dad can go to the
VA for care, but there's no care for the kid.
And they do suffer silently often with those
problems that are brought home. Is there federal
or state grant money also available for this
sort of work, or is that diminished in today's
environment? The federal grant funding is paused
for now, but I am an English professor on the
side, so I set my alarm every morning at 4 a
.m. I'm also our grant writer, and I'm putting
in two right now that are larger grants asking
for continued funding, but it's actually, you
mentioned the children of veterans. We're starting
a new program, and it's literacy intervention.
Because I'm on a school board, we actually have
23 ,000 students in our school district, and
the children are only reading at 38 % proficiency
across grade level. And many of these are veteran
and military children who've moved around a lot
and who have issues with either English as a
second language or literacy in general, just
from moving and not having constant educational
care. And so we've started a literacy program
and it's in a national called Horse Powered Reading,
but we have started it at our center and it's
two retired school teachers, one's a principal.
And it's to reach out to the military and veteran
children and be able to do literacy intervention
prior to third grade and then third grade to
eighth grade to help reduce that gap. And then
secondary, we also we accept Medicaid, but that
barely covers a third of the cost for children
that need intervention for behavior and mental
health that are in middle school. We're seeing
a high rate of suicidal ideation in middle schoolers.
And so what we're able to do is bring them out
and do some group work. But again, the cost is
prohibitive for a lot of families that actually
need it. It's a catch -22. So we look for funders
to help us keep those programs going for the
children that are here and then our military
families that rotate through. So we normally
start our veteran radio programs talking about
our just military career so that our listeners
know that this person maybe has walked in their
boots before. We didn't do that here because
I wanted to get right into equine therapy and
the current need at stable strides. I'm hoping
some folks will reach out and help support. But
Michelle, let's back up. I think we mentioned
you went through the Air Force Academy. You became
a pilot. You flew overseas. Tell us a little
bit about that. Then we also touched on that
you were in the White House. Well, you were a
White House fellow. And again, recently retired
back to Colorado with your husband and family,
your husband, a former Air Force pilot as well.
But tell us a little bit, let our listeners know
that you're the real deal. Well, I graduated
from the Air Force Academy in 2003 and then I
went on to fly the C -130 and then the MC -12
which is a King Air 350 that does manned intelligence
surveillance and reconnaissance. So I did my
tours in Afghanistan and we would fly over continuous
operations so that we could watch the ground
and we could send down real -time surveillance
to the ground troops so they could make battle
decisions and we could also do battle damage
assessment. But while I was there, I got very
close to the Afghan people. I also taught English.
So in addition to being a pilot, I was an English
professor at the Air Force Academy. So I did
a lot of volunteer teaching for the young girls
in Afghanistan teaching English and some young
men that were there. So I also had interpreters.
And when it came time to come back to the U .S.,
I was a White House fellow under both President
Trump and President Biden. And I did speech writing,
military advising. And like I said, I was there
the night of the Afghanistan fall. And then I
went on to the Pentagon. I did future warfare
in the joint staff. My final assignment was the
Air Force sent me back to work at NORAD in Cheyenne
Mountain. So I was deputy command center director
watching all of the missiles around the world.
And now I still work with the Air Force Academy
as an admissions liaison officer. And I'm also
one of the theater officers in charge. So we're
doing something around the roof. But I bring
all that up to say, I went back and forth between
flying airplanes and also teaching. So I really
had the left and right brain going because I
taught English. And what I noticed a common thread
through both flying and doing operations overseas
and then teaching was really the humanity, that
part of it. We can get more and more advanced
in technology and AI and our combat systems,
but at the heart of it, it's really the people
that we need to take care of that are still making
the original decisions. And I was noticing a
heavier and heavier load on a lot of our young
guys who did 11, 12 deployments. So I went and
decided to get a master's degree also in psychology
and become a life coach. And the reason I did
that is because as much as we've worked to reduce
the stigma and mental health in the flying community,
in the last three years, I have lost people that
are very near and dear to my heart to suicide
because they could not come forward. In the flying
community, if we come forward, you will still
have the possibility of losing your wings, which
to many people is their livelihood. And it's
not just the flying community, a lot of special
operations. So we're working on getting that
to be much more open and reduce the stigma. But
the point is a lot of people won't go through
TRICARE or won't go to the VA, but they will
go to a private life coach. And if they go to
the private life coach like me, I work in the
grief and I work in all of these areas. to be
able to give them an avenue and I'm not saying
go around the military system. I'm saying I'd
love for it to augment. I would love for our
people to be able to go to their health care
provider but also see someone like me who's a
life coach that can walk you through a lot of
the same challenges that you would talk to with
a therapist. So I've joined with a group out
here that does retreats for veterans and we bring
people out here who are facing some of the toughest
situations you can imagine. suicide and grief
and loss, and we bring them out to do a retreat
with equine therapy. So that's in addition to
Stable Strides. We do that for anyone in the
entire country listening. You can reach me through
stablestrides .org and we can talk about those
veteran retreats. Well, one of the things we
try to get when we're promoting nonprofits and
supporting nonprofits like Stable Strides is
we want our listeners to know, as I mentioned
a minute ago, the person organizing it, running
it, the person who's going to be a fiduciary
of the funds that you donate has a heart and
a brain in the right spot. And clearly, Michelle,
you do. We've been longtime friends. So I know
better than most and your family. So I know everything
is in the right spot. So we're glad to bring
stablestrides .org to the forefront. to highlight
the value of equine therapy, but also the struggles
in today's climate to financially be able to
keep something like this going. And we'd encourage
folks to go check it out a little bit more. And
if you feel compelled to support the cause. So
Michelle, really appreciate the time that you've
given us today on Veterans Radio. Thank you.
Military veterans touch everyone's life. I'm
guessing right now you're thinking of a veteran.
A close friend, relative, maybe it's you. Even
the toughest of us sometimes need help, but don't
know where to turn for support. You don't need
special training to help a veteran in your life.
We can all help someone going through a difficult
time. Learn how you can be there for veterans.
Visit veteranscrisisline .net. Veteranscrisisline
.net. A message from the U .S. Department of
Veterans Affairs. If you have a VA claim denied
by the Board of Veterans' Appeals, contact Legal
Help for Veterans at 1 -800 -693 -4800. They're
experts in handling cases before the U .S. Court
of Appeals for Veterans' claims. Their number
again, 1 -800 -693 -4800. Now let's hear from
a vet who thought, well, you know, equine therapy
is good for my family and my kids to go do it,
but I don't need that kind of stuff. Ultimately
found himself getting involved with equine therapy
kind of after the family did and finding it helpful.
He's on the journey now, has not completed the
whole coursework, if you will, but has found
it to be something that works for him and that's
why we're bringing you this story. It's really
about finding what works for you to get through
maybe it's PTS, maybe it's anger issues, maybe
it's getting off some self -medication and finding
a little peace in life. Lots of different ways
to do it, and this is just one that is a little
unusual, but it's working for people, so don't
write it off. Give it some consideration. We
want to welcome to Veterans Radio today an Army
veteran of some 30 years, Will Bruck, who was
a Chief Warrant Officer for retiring in 2023.
Will, welcome to Veterans Radio. Well, thank
you, Jim, for the invite. It's an honor to be
on today, sir. Well, we're going to talk about
your experience with equine therapy, but let
me set this up a little bit, as I said to our
audience. Will served for 30 years in the army.
He did four tours of duty overseas, including
Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria. Along the way,
he collected two bronze stars, meritorious service
medal, a combat action badge. But in his non
-military career, he's been a journeyman lineman
with IBEW, and he's... Awfully happy he's not
out servicing electrical grids in southeast Michigan
in the freezer weather we have at the moment.
But it also became a small business owner in
the home care business. Has a local visiting
angels offices in southeast Michigan. He's been
elected to the Michigan House of Representatives
and is serving district 30. Got a family and
a lot of active involvement in things like Disabled
American Veterans, Veterans of Foreign Wars,
Little Blessings Veterans and Community Outreach
and the Rotary Club. Will, I don't know how you
have time for it all, but again, the focus today
will be on equine therapy. So again, thanks for
joining us. No, I appreciate the introduction.
Yeah, I got a lot of experiences and hopefully...
you know that's that comes with a lot of baggage
to it at times when you're talking combat tours
and such but you know working with equine therapy
and little blessings veteran outreach i sit on
the board as the president currently for the
last two years and so it's an honor to talk today
about equine therapy well you you know let's
jump off there because you mentioned you know
uh that much time and the combat tours It's not
unusual somebody has a little bit as you refer
to it baggage PTS and in particular Tell us about
what baggage you had and what led you to try
equine therapy Wow, that's a loaded question,
but you know they say nobody goes to war and
comes back the same No, you know it took me three
tours before I believed that to be honest. It
was you know a lot of rejection of changes within
you know, my own psyche, you know, you have physical
issues, anyone that served 30 plus years in the
military, you're going to have physical ailments
and issues. But when you're faced with the situations
and the environment that you're put into being
in combat, that it also changes you mentally,
whether you are aware or admitted or not. And
so coming home, it was, you know, I was in Iraq
in 03 and 04. I called the Wild West and, you
know, came home and I thought I was the same.
Looking back, I wasn't. You know, I went again
in 2009, back to Iraq, and, you know, came home
even more different, but yet refusing, you know,
to admit that. I went to Afghanistan in 15, 14,
15, and then when I came home, the wheels fell
off. And I still refuse. you know, to get help.
I refused to admit that I had a problem. It just
caused expounded difficulties between family.
You failed to mention I have nine children. My
wife and I have nine together. All natural born,
you know, all our own. Well, and your story up
until the nine children is pretty typical. I
mean, it's all the... guys and gals who've done
these multiple rotations, you're gonna, things
change and you may not believe that, but your
family sees it and the family starts saying,
hey man, you gotta get a little help, talk to
somebody. And I suspect that's what was going
on. I mean, there was a time or two with my spouse,
Natalie, she's a saint, she's endured so much,
that she said, you have to get help. And I would
get help. to the degree that it satisfied her
needs. But at the time, I take a time period
after 2015 that for 10 plus years I lived. I
lived with bitterness and with no regret for
anything that I did. In 2020, I went back for
my fourth tour, Iraq and Syria. you know honestly
I went back I told my wife I was going back to
get fixed you know as stupid as that sounds now
but that was my mentality like I'm gonna go get
fixed and you know I came back thinking I was
fixed I got my last tour in and you know you
mentioned my daughter wrote the book during that
time I was deployed in 2020 -21 my family started
going through little blessings my wife actually
started before I deployed in 2020. For three
months, she was going weekly to Little Blessings
for horse equine therapy. And I didn't know she
was even going until she told me after three
months. And that's how irrelevant and detached
I was for my family. You know, and I say that
with regret now, but until really recently, I
had no regrets on that. And even up until current
point I you know my kids went through the program
in 21 they started the kids program an 18 -week
program the adult program is 50 weeks so it's
a whole year long but when I came back from Iraq
in 21 I saw my kids it helped me I started to
get involved in Little Blessings but still did
not did not address the issues the root issues
of bitterness and PTSD and the anger and the
lack of guilt. And then actually, December of
last year, I enrolled into the program. So I'm
actually new at the, you know, I was president
of the organization, but yet, you know, having
never been through the program. But last December,
prior to Christmas, you know, we, we as a family
get a point where I finally admitted, I need,
I need help that I haven't been getting and so
I'm actually about five weeks into the program
right now so that that's kind of current that's
25 years and two minutes yeah it's impossible
to do justice to the story in the time we have
here in this interview but I think it's important
because people don't be surprised ashamed Rooted
into the ground if if you don't you know quote
-unquote fix yourself right away It takes years
to get to the point Where you find something
first off that you admit the hey I need to do
something and you'll find something that works
for you and for some people Equine therapy may
be the thing that works now you live and your
family lives in a Rural area you got a little
you know you might call it a hobby farm But what
led them, what led Natalie to equine therapy
and why did you ultimately go, yeah, you know,
maybe I need to get with the program. Well, what
brought her to it was the inability to cope with
what I wasn't coping with. That's what brought
her to the table. And she met Jamie Paxson who
who started Little Blessings in about 2018. And
that's what drew Natalie to the program. And
it gave her a lot of things in her toolbox on
how to deal with a veteran being married to a
veteran. She now leads a spouse group that meets
every other week at Little Blessings. My kids
get into the program. And when I came home at
21, I saw my kids in a program. I remember crying,
watching my kids, you know, seeing and talking
to the mental health specialist, you know, that
was explaining the issues, the problems that
my kids were having. And at that point, I knew
that my problems, my PTSD was in a sense being
transcended to my family. Now, I wasn't to the
point where I cared enough to fix myself, but
I was success. What business I was a chief foreign
officer for. Nobody's going to tell me what to
do. You know, I was successful in the military
as well as civilian life as a reservist. But
bringing me to the table was, you know, we brought
30 -some vets through this program, year -long
program at Little Blessings. And it has changed
the life of multiple families, all these families,
not just the vet, but the whole family. Well,
let me give the full name of it. It's Little
Blessings Veterans and Community Outreach, if
I've got it right. And Jamie Paxton, who you
referred to, who I think is the executive director,
she did 25 years in the United States Air Force
and came out as a first sergeant. So again, somebody
who's been there and knows the personality of
somebody who says, I'm a chief warrant officer,
what the hell are you gonna tell me? Right? Yeah.
And we're the ones that have all the answers.
If you've been in the army or the Marines, the
warrant officers are the ones everyone goes to
for help. We are the ones that are supposed to
have the answers, but when we don't have the
answers for ourselves, it's hard as a human being
to admit that. So that was my problem. So what
is it about the horses? Why equine therapy? Why
not just go to the VA and talk to a mental health
person? Why was it the equine therapy that drew
you in? Well, for me, horses scare the crap out
of me, so that's a start. And it's a challenge.
Secondly, equine therapy, and specifically, eGala
is the model that we follow. It's a nationally
recognized model. It's not going out riding horses.
It's not, you know, equestrian things. It's interacting
with the horses, and horses have an innate ability.
They're a fight or a flight animal. Their reactions
are based off their instinct. Either they're
going to fight or they're fleeing. And a lot
of times, that's where vets end up getting. When
I look at my history, coming back from tours,
and the inability to deal with the issues at
home, the children, the upheaval, the arguments,
or different things that come up. We either fight
or we flight. That's a military bred instinct.
Horses have that same instinct. And so working
with the horses, you're learning how, number
one, to identify those problems that you have,
but number two, how to manage those problems.
And the horses, this unique ability to do that
and to mirror your emotions your anxiety and
It helps you regulate those things now. Obviously.
I'm only five weeks into the program There's
a lot that I haven't seen yet, but that's you
know This is what it does for the veteran well
And you've been around it though now for years
through the family and I want to talk a little
bit about so that you could do some bragging
and on what it did for the kids and Anna in particular
the direction that she took it. It changed my
kids outlook because as the title of my daughter's
book she wrote hope on four hooves. My family
we're a very religious family we you know we're
very We're Christian, we worship and we believe
in God and we have faith. But in the situation
with their father, I'll take my daughter was
14 when she wrote the book. She didn't have a
lot of hope that things were going to work out
at that time. And through the equine therapy,
it allowed my kids to learn how to regulate those
emotions that were being passed on to them and
to bring hope. back to my family you know right
alongside with with God was there the whole time
but you know there's the physical and the spiritual
and and and sometimes the two you know one's
weaker than the other depending on the situation
and physically and emotionally my kids were were
were falling apart because of the anxiety that
I had that I was creating in them and so you
know them going through the program and my wife
going through the program it allowed them to
to to get hope back again that things are going
to be okay and there's a way out of this darkness
that we have been placed into and this is a this
is a uh if you will private non -profit and I
want to point that out because of the family
aspect of this uh veterans can go to the VA for
mental health care but does but VA doesn't do
anything for the family it it's not designed,
authorized, funded for family mental health care.
So things like Little Blessings Veteran Outreach
are important and supporting those are important
because it's a family affair, not just a veteran
affair. And let me tell you that, veteran radio
listeners, we're talking to Will Brock, chief.
Warrant Officer for 30 years in the army in his
and his family's experience with equine therapy
Little blessings veteran outreach. You can find
it on the web at LB veteran outreach org if you
if you want some more information as I said,
it's a founder and executive director is a 25
year Air Force veteran so she knows what she's
talking about Will as you Begin the process of
going through the program. Is it something that
you sort of begin to see changes in yourself
or recognizing patterns before they get to developed?
What do you expect to get out of the program?
Right now I'm learning to recognize the patterns
of the horse. So the emotions or reactions of
the animal, it takes an eye. So, you know, I
used to make fun of my wife, you know, talking
to, going to talk to Mr. Ed, you know, the horse.
You know, what's he gonna teach us? What's he
gonna teach you? You know, how does he talk,
et cetera. You know, but the horses have definite
reactions based off their emotions. Number one
is realizing what is making you know the reactions
the good and the bad reactions in that animal
that's what i'm in the process of learning right
now and to regulate and to build trust with that
creature in order for that creature to you know
help me it's it's you know it sounds you know
sometimes it's it's voodoo sounding but but it
it literally has changed the lives of of many,
many veterans just in our own community. And
again, our organization, the VA, I would question
whether the VA mental health helps a lot, but
you can talk to somebody once a month or every
other month or every quarter. You're discussing
problems and trying to fix problems, but little
blessings encompasses the entire family. and
the entire psyche of the person. It's a family
affair. We have the family dinners once a month.
We have the children's program. It's a place
where veterans, when they're done with the program,
they still continue to come to the ranch to interact
with the animal that they went through the program
with. And there's support. There's other veterans
there that have been through the same program.
or currently in the program that are there to
also interact with that veteran. It gives a camaraderie
ship as well as the family getting that support
mechanism as well. And again, it's all supported
by private funds. Yeah, the horse picks up on
your aggression, right? I mean, if you're hostile,
it reacts a certain way. If you can calm yourself,
it calms itself. Is that what you're talking
about when you say I'm just learning to read
the horse Yes, yes, sir. Yeah, if you have a
high anxiety the horse is going to exhibit those
same symptoms because they pick up because they're
a fight -or -flight animal they they are unsure
of your feeling, you know your your anxiety they
can feel now that I don't know how they do it,
but they do it and and Their reaction is either
they're gonna fight you or they're gonna flight
you know, they're going to flee from you. They're
trying to decide what they're going to do. And
so I'm in the portion of breathing those emotions
of the horse, you know, but those are really
truly my emotions that are coming out in the
horse. Now this little Blessing Veterans Outreach
is in Monroe County, just a little bit north
of the Ohio State line. But these kind of therapy
equine therapy programs are all over the country.
And there are some I don't know if I'd call it
standards or groups. I know one of them's a professional
association of therapeutic horsemanship international.
And you mentioned, you know, at Little Blessings
they're following a sort of a time -tested. Yeah.
EGALA, EGALA model. And there's an association,
EGALA, it's nationally certified. There's EGALA,
people that practice the EGALA. Gallup model
throughout the U .S. There's only a very small
handful that specifically do it strictly for
veterans. And that's, again, if you're listening
to this or on Veterans Radio or the podcast and
you're thinking, hey, I got this, this might
work for a friend of mine or they ought to just
look into it or maybe it's something I'd be interested
in, there is, there are resources available.
You might have to search them out a little bit.
you know, by going onto the internet or maybe
talking to a VA social worker and getting a referral,
again, this is gonna be on the private side of
things. It's not a VA hospital benefit, that's
for damn sure. No, it is not. I mean, we would
love for it to be at some point, you know, supported
by the VA and they see that... They see the benefit
of it because there's been conversations even
at the local level with the Ann Arbor VA. But
it has yet to be adopted by the VA as one of
their methods. But we'll stay optimistic. And
a gala for those of us who are functionally illiterate
in this area, which I am, it's Equine Assisted
Psychotherapy, E -A -G -A -L -A dot org. where
again you can find it's got a link for find a
program for example and and you can get more
information if you're down in Louisiana or you're
over in New York you can probably find something
nearby that is worth giving a go and is it a
combination both will of kind of Working with
the horse and working with a mental health therapist?
Yes, there's a mental health, there's a mental
health therapist at the sessions. There's an
EGALA certified handler at the sessions. And
you know, it's a pretty strict program. Each
session is made to address a slightly different
avenue, you know, or a different step in the
program. You know, you lead the horses and you're
your commands you know you're given commands
to give to the horse as you lead it and on the
horse will obey or not obey based off your level
of anxiety or command you know your confidence
level you know there's so many variables within
it but but it's proven to work and help and and
we see it working each and every day currently
at our place we have 15 I want to say 15 or 16
veterans in the program right now and there's
four different phases so they're you know they're
not all it's individually individual sessions
but they're all different times of the week in
different phases. This has been very interesting
and again I think most veteran radio listeners
wouldn't know about this Will Brook. They wouldn't
be able to maybe suggest it to somebody who this
is perfect for. So I really appreciate the time
that you've given us today to talk about how
it's helped the family, as well as dad finally
getting on board and going, okay, I'm gonna suck
it up and do this myself and see the value. They
were probably surprised that dad finally came
around to it, but I bet they're all pretty happy.
I've gotten a lot of positive comments, Jim,
not just from my family, but also other veterans
that are proud or thankful that I took this step.
Because I am kind of a public figure. I'm a state
house rep member. I'm pretty famous in my area.
I'm a business owner. And I don't want to say
I'm humble, but it takes a lot of humility. to
admit that you need help. And I've had a lot
of veterans reach out to me and say thank you
for what you've done. Absolutely, and I want
to thank you for taking time to share this story
and give a little hope out there to the veteran
community and maybe looking at equine therapy
is something that they ought to do. Will, thanks
for your time today. Thank you, Jim. I appreciate
you, sir. In the few minutes we have left, I
certainly hope you enjoyed learning more about
equine therapy, but I also want to tell you about
the Congressional Medal of Honor Society Convention,
which will be held in Detroit from September
29th to October 3rd, 2026. It features the largest
gathering of living Medal of Honor recipients.
The convention will bring together as many as
60 living Medal of Honor recipients for a series
of public and private events aimed at sharing
their stories and promoting the values of the
Medal of Honor such as commitment, integrity,
courage, sacrifice, citizenship, and patriotism.
The event or convention also includes community
engagement activities allowing recipients to
connect with local students, veterans, and active
military members. This convention really represents
a unique opportunity. The first time in the city's
or Metro Detroit's area history that it's been
able to bring this kind of convention to the
area to honor its military heroes and foster
a spirit of patriotism and community engagement.
You can learn more about the convention by going
to medalofhonoredetroit .com. If you're interested
in sponsoring or helping out as a volunteer,
you can go to that site and put in some information
and learn how you or your group or company can
participate in this incredible opportunity to
recognize the Congressional Medal of Honor Society
Convention. One of the men that we're expecting
to appear is Ronald Ray. He's an interesting
veteran American. He grew up in rural Georgia.
He was a high school dropout. He went into the
U .S. Army Special Forces. His platoon got overwhelmed
with enemy fire in Vietnam, but his calm leadership
and absolute resolve to not abandon his soldiers
turned the chaos into survival. At one point,
he used his own body to shield a wounded comrade.
At another, he had to run across open ground
to retrieve a machine gun essential to the platoon's
defense. He continued in the army and ultimately
became a lieutenant colonel before retiring.
He went on to get all kinds of education after
dropping out from high school. And this is kind
of the amazing part. His reputation for integrity
and strategic thinking quickly carried him into
public service roles, including becoming a White
House fellow, serving as special assistant to
the secretary of commerce. and being appointed
as the Assistant Secretary of Human Resources
and Administrations at the VA. An incredible
career and incredible patriot who'll be in Detroit
for the convention of the Congressional Medal
of Honor Society in the fall of 2026. So you
can learn more by going to Congressional Medal
of Honor Society site, cmohs .org, and remember
to visit medalofhonoredetroit .com. As part of
that Medal of Honor celebration, we're working
on Veterans Radio to pull together all of the
interviews we've done over the years with various
Medal of Honor recipients. We've actually talked
to quite a few of them. They're interesting stories,
and we're going to make a spot on our veteransradio
.org website. If you go to the Listen, we're
going to have a Medal of Honor. Pull that bar
down, you'll find the Medal of Honor link, and
there we will put all kinds of prior interviews
we've done with Medal Honor recipients or about
them. So it's kind of an exciting time to be
listening to Veterans Radio and participating.
We would hope that you'd participate by maybe
being a sponsor of Veterans Radio this year.
It's always a challenge to have enough dollars
in the bank. to do this job, and we really do
appreciate our sponsors, in particular our local
sponsors. You don't have to contribute a lot.
You can do it on a monthly basis, or maybe if
you're a business out there, you can take on
a little bigger role. We want to thank our local
VSOs, Vietnam Veterans of America, Charles S.
Kettles, Chapter 310, VFW Graf O 'Hara, Post
423, American Legion, Post 46. all in Ann Arbor
that continue to support Dale and myself as we're
involved in this endeavor. So go to Facebook
to check us out. Go to veteransradio .org to
follow us or donate. And we really do appreciate
the ideas that we get from you in terms of content
or people we ought to talk to. So send us an
email. We're glad to do it or pop it on Facebook.
We'll track it there or send us a message. Every
Tuesday we put up a new podcast, something new
that hasn't been played yet. You can check that
out. Those podcasts may or may not make their
way onto the airwaves based on all the other
content that we have. So it's something that
you ought to set for a weekly basis and listen
in. I think you'd find it useful. Well, I'm Jim
Fossone and it's been a pleasure to bring you
these interviews on equine therapy and the Medal
of Honor Society. And until next time on Veterans
Radio, you are dismissed.