All across America and around the world, this
is Veterans Radio. This is Veterans Radio. And
now, your host for today's program, Dale Throneberry.
Hey, welcome to Veterans Radio. My name is Dale
Throneberry as our CW2 helicopter pilot in Vietnam,
1969. Welcome to our program. We're going to
be talking about a lot of good things today.
We're going to be talking books. about Vietnam.
We're going to be talking books about Vietnam
helicopter pilots so it's kind of a rotorhead
radio today a little bit. We're going to be talking
with Phil Marshall who has written 21 books of
his own about helicopter rescues in Vietnam and
we're also going to be talking with Sam Andrews
who is a board member of an organization called
Bravo Zulu which is a retreat for veterans in
Minnesota and we're going to get a little bit
more into detail about that in just a minute.
but I gotta before we do that I gotta thank our
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46 here in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and the Charles
S. Kettles Vietnam Veterans of America Chapter
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see we've been doing this now for 23 years, holy
mackerel. And almost all of our programs are
on our website. You can go there and check into
the archives and find some programs. I'm discovering
these things that I haven't done in years and
years. I found the one the other day, 2005, which
is kind of cool. We're starting to post some
excerpts of some of those programs on our Facebook
page. So you might want to check that out. It's
kind of interesting that people that we've had
the privilege and opportunity to talk to over
the years. So let's get right into the crew here
with the program. My first guest today is Sam
Andrews. And Sam is a retired US Army Lieutenant
Colonel, 25 years of distinguished service. Oh,
25 years. I made it three years, seven months,
and two days. But who counted? um anyway began
his service 1995 as an infantry squad leader
with the united states marine corps commissioned
in the michigan michigan minnesota army national
guard as a distinguished military graduate through
minnesota rotc program i held a range of strategic
and operational leadership roles the two -meter
company commander battalion brigade staff officer
s3 Wow, you did a lot of stuff here. But the
reason that I'm bringing Sam onto the program
is that he's a board member for an organization
called Bravo Zulu House. So Sam Andrews, welcome
to Veterans Radio. Hi, Dale. Thanks for having
me. I appreciate it. Well, we appreciate this.
I came across your organization really by chance.
It was something that was on a Facebook page.
And I said, What is this? This is kind of cool.
I mean, last week we did a program on a couple
of organizations that have been supporting veterans,
and this just seemed like a logical extension
of that program. So I reached out to you and
your organization, and luckily we were able to
get this connection. So tell me what you can
about Bravo Zulu House. It's kind of an unusual
retreat. Well, I wouldn't call it a retreat.
What it technically is is a sober house. So Bravo
Zulu in naval vernacular means good job or job
well done. And so the flag officer of the fleet
post exercise or engagement would raise the flags,
Bravo and Zulu to signal job well done. And so
Bravo Zulu House is a sober home for veterans
with PTSD. It's the only sober home in the nation
for veterans with PTSD. So despite the VA spending
$571 million a year specifically on veterans
mental health care, the rates of suicide in the
veteran community went up from 17 to 17 and a
half this this last year during this last reporting
period. So what does that mean? Well, It means
that we've got a problem with our clinical order
of operations for the veterans that are served
by the VA and at the larger community. Let me
break that down for you in terms of some pretty
grim statistics. 30 ,000 veterans a month exit
one of the 15 ,000 inpatient treatment programs.
So that's roughly two veterans per inpatient
treatment program every single month. 30 ,000
every single month. There is one location for
them to transition into similar to a skilled
nursing facility from a continuity of care perspective
before they transition to independent living.
Now it takes about 18 months for the brain plasticity
to change once a guy gets sober and 18 months
for someone to learn new skill sets and new activities
that will help them in their recovery journey.
And so that's where Bravo Zulu fits. Inpatient
treatment center, independent living, somewhere
between 12 and 18 months. And those veterans,
those veterans that transitioned to us have a
whole menu of programs available to them. What
we are first and foremost is a sober home. We
have a case manager that works with each one
of our veterans and within 48 hours we get them
connected to the Mayo Clinic and we do two things
there. We get them to an intensive outpatient
treatment and PTSD assessment and then we connect
them with primary care because not only are our
guys suffering from PTSD they're dealing with
pretty other significant issues like pain management
and sleep and so in order for actual treatment
to work, PTSD treatment to work, guys have to
first and foremost be sober. And then second,
need to be able to both manage pain and manage
sleep because those two things combined can really
create a pretty challenging environment for one,
both mentally and physically. Within the first
48 hours, we get them scheduled for that assessment.
We get them connected with PCP. And then a couple
days later, they're in -processed into the Mayo
Clinic for that assessment. And then 10 days
following that assessment, those guys get pipelined
right into both IOP and PTSD therapy. And then
they meet with their PCP and they're able to
connect them with the right specialists and subspecialists
to work on both sleep and pain. That's the gap
in healthcare that we fit. In addition to that,
you know, it's a 13 bedroom, barn dominium or
schaust or slab on grade home where the guys
live. They each have their own room. They're
also connected to the local AA groups. They get
a sponsor. They're connected with a spiritual
coach. And as we progress here, we'll offer,
we have the facility for canine therapy. a fully
climate control kennel for 13 dogs where guys
can rescue a dog and then grow with them as a
canine companion. So we offer arguably an incredibly
important, we close an incredibly important gap
in veterans healthcare between inpatient treatment
and independent living. And the final note of
that is, you know, community, dignity, peer support
and then employment. So all our guys are welcome
with open arms with the local community and will
work 30 hours a week somewhere in the community
or volunteer in some instances for guys that
aren't either capable of working or financially
in a place where they can just work. Now, Dale,
I got a million dollar question. Okay. How much
does it cost to live at the Bravo Zoo the house
with all of those services? I'm thinking it's
going to be free It's $600 a month to pay for
your room That's not bad No reasonable correct.
So part of that whole dignified living peer support
surrounded by guys with similar experiences is
that it's important that you start to rebuild
sort of responsible behavior. So we charge a
very, what I would argue, insignificant amount
of money to live in an incredible location surrounded
by your peers, supported by a case manager, and
then receive arguably world -class health care
from, you know, arguably one of the best medical
institutions in the country. Well, I mean, that's
certainly true. If you're connected with a Mayo
Clinic, I think most of us have heard of that.
and so we're talking here with Sam Andrews he's
on the board of Bravo Zulu house which is in
Minnesota and is this something where is this
only for Minnesotians or is it if somebody who's
listening to our program right now were to contact
you and they lived in you know wherever Nebraska
is that something that where they could get help
from you? Dale we are accepting applications
from around the country so I'll just kind of
lay out the qualifications, veteran, male by
birth. We don't strictly adhere to the federal
definition of veterans. So there may be some
guardsmen or reservists that don't quote unquote
qualify from a service perspective, right? But
the current group of residents of all, they're
all combat deployment guys. Who've served federally
so easy easy sort of thing so male by birth be
a veteran? complete an inpatient treatment program
and Be willing to you know comply with the programs
that the Bravo Zulu house has in order to You
know track your recovery progress I'm just thinking
here you you mentioned a six hundred dollars
a month, which is to somebody who's not working,
it's a lot of money, but obviously you're going
to help them out. When they go to, who pays for
the Mayo Clinic and so forth? That is a great
question. So, you know, once upon a time I went
to the Carlson School of Management here in the
great state of Minnesota and earned an MBA as
I exited service. And so we talk about things
like build, buy, or partner. Well, we built a
sober home. and we partner with experts and our
experts also include payers um payers meaning
insurance providers and in many cases our men
are eligible for what's called minnesota care
now you could be from alaska north carolina or
virginia and part of what our case manager does
during onboarding is determine whether or not
you have a payer. And if not, we go down to the
Fairmont County office and we sign our guys up
for Minnesota Care, which is the Medicaid program,
the federal Medicaid program that's administered
by the state of Minnesota and Mayo accepts them
as a payer. And so their continuation of care,
their health care is covered by Minnesota Care
as they receive treatment through the Mayo Health
System. Well, that answers a lot of great questions.
So you can handle what you mentioned 17 at a
time. 13, 13. Yep. And so our expansion plan,
we're in the process of raising money for the
first America's first all female veterans sober
home for women veterans with PTSD in Mankato.
So that'll be 10 bedrooms. And then as we proof
out our model from an efficacy perspective, through
a study with the University of Minnesota and
the VA, we hope to launch two of these in every
state across the country. Because arguably the
need is greater than just 13, considering 30
,000 a month. Wow, this is great. So tell me
again, if I need to get in there, where do I
go to find out how I can do this? Yep, two things
www .bravozuluhouse .org and you'll see apply
here. Now, Dale, I'm not an expert at much anything
and I certainly didn't stay in a Holiday Inn
Express last night. But if you click on that
button and fill out the application and it takes
you more than five minutes, I would be shocked.
So fill out an application. Our case manager,
Mark, will call you, email you. within a couple
of hours and then they'll have a conversation
about where you're at in your recovery journey
and make an offer to that veteran to move to
the Bravo Zulu House. And where is the Bravo
Zulu House? The Bravo Zulu House is about two
hours south of the Minneapolis -St. Paul Airport
or about 40 minutes south of Mankato, Minnesota
in a town called Winnebago. triangulated kind
of Winnebago, Fairmont, Minnesota area. I -90
and 169. Okay, Winnebago. I think I've heard
that name before. Probably, probably in the Canberra.
Dale, maybe someday we could jump into Winnebago
and go for a tour, but there's actually a city
named Winnebago. Yeah, that's great. All right.
Well, thank you. Sam Andrews, a board member
for Bravo Zulu House. This is a great organization
it's it's you know i'm reading off of their flyer
here it's america's first sober living house
focus exclusively on veterans with post -traumatic
stress uh i greatly appreciate the work that
you are doing i wish you the best of luck and
people just throw money at this organization
i think this is a great idea and you've got you
know you're taking care of men right now and
the idea of building a shelter or same type of
facility for women is great. We can never forget
our women veterans. There are so many of them
out there that I think have been feeling a little
neglected here. So we got to make sure we take
care of them as well. So, Dale, as I get ready
to sign off and say thank you for the opportunity
to talk to your residents, a Greek poet, about
486 BCE, said something to the effect of, it's
not how a nation sends its men off to war, but
it's how they are welcomed home. And from my
generation to yours, because you didn't get the
welcome that we did, thank you and welcome home.
Those are the best words we get to hear almost
every day now when people find out that we've
served in the Vietnam era. It's so much better
than, you know, thank you for your service. It's
welcome home. and thank you sam also for your
service thank you what you're doing with bravo
zulu house i can't wait to hear more about it
all right gentlemen thank you have a great day
we will thank you very much welcome home here
we are all righty uh so that was bravo zulu house
and that that sounds like a really great organization
i'm i'm anxious to follow them along we are going
to play our medal of honor segment here because
and don't be surprised it's about a Vietnam helicopter
pilot and when we come back we've got our guest
who is Phil Marshall and Phil is a also a Vietnam
helicopter pilot he was a medevac pilot in Vietnam
he's also a very writer very excellent writer
21 books about rescues that medevac pilots and
regular pilots did in Vietnam, so we're anxious
to talk with Phil. So hey, listen, if you want
to get in on the conversation before I forget,
you can give us a call here if you're listening
live, and that number is 734 -822 -1600. 734
-822 -1600. We'll be right back. This is the
Medal of Honor segment for today's program. The
Medal of Honor is the highest award for valor
in combat given a member of the Armed Forces
of the United States. There have been over 3
,400 recipients of the nation's highest award.
This is one of them. War Officer Frederick Ferguson
led a four -ship helicopter formation into a
South Vietnamese Army compound under heavy fire.
Details after this. If you have a VA claim denied
by the Board of Veterans' Appeals, contact Legal
Help for Veterans at 1 -800 -693. 4800. They're
experts in handling cases before the U .S. Court
of Appeals for Veterans Claims. Their number
again, 1 -800 -693 -4800. After completing a
hitch on the Navy, Ferguson got his commercial
pilot's license and then joined the army to fly
helicopters. Two weeks after graduating from
helicopter school, he was in Vietnam. On January
31, 1968, Ferguson heard that a first cavalry
helicopter had gone down in Hue, and another
had been badly shot up trying to rescue them.
Ferguson and his crew agreed to go get them.
While refueling, he asked three Huey gunships
if they wanted to accompany him. They did. The
GIs in the compound reported they were under
heavy fire. Ferguson circled until the fire abated,
then began a low -level high -speed run into
the compound. He descended blindly in a dust
storm from his rotors. When he touched down,
he saw there was only one foot clearance on each
side of his blades. The GIs jumped aboard and
Ferguson pulled up. A mortar shell exploded under
his aircraft, spinning at 180 degrees. One of
the Hueys was shot down and the crew rescued.
The other two were so badly shot up by the time
they landed, they were no longer able to fly.
Ferguson received his Medal of Honor from President
Nixon on May 17, 1969. The Medal of Honor series
is a production of Veterans Radio. Military veterans
touch everyone's life. I'm guessing right now
you're thinking of a veteran, a close friend,
relative. Maybe it's you. Even the toughest of
us sometimes need help but don't know where to
turn for support. You don't need special training
to help a veteran in your life. We can all help
someone going through a difficult time. Learn
how you can be there for veterans. Visit veteranscrisisline
.net. Veteranscrisisline .net. A message from
the U .S. Department of Veterans Affairs. 451
stories in those books. So I think that's kind
of cool. So Phil, welcome back to Veterans Radio.
Thank you, Dan. It's always been a pleasure.
Well, it's good to talk to you. And you know,
when we were I was thinking about doing this
program on gathering some of the books on on
Vietnam, and it was only because I was watching
a quiz show the other night and somebody asked
one of the questions was about Vietnam. or the
mute was about a song or something like that
and the person who was much younger didn't identify
it couldn't figure it out and I'm going Uh -oh.
You know, we are now at that phase in our lives
where the World War II veterans were. Yeah. And,
you know, we've got to let people know that we're
still out there doing things, and you are obviously
doing things. So I thought today we could talk
about some of the books that we've both enjoyed
reading about the Vietnam War and not all helicopter
stories. I mean, as much as, you know, Rotorhead
Radio is all about helicopters, we do read other
things. Other than that, so let's kind of start
this off. What books would you recommend to somebody
who doesn't really know anything about what happened
over there? Matt Jackson, which is not his real
name, it's his pen name, has done a series of
undaunted Ballard books. And what he's done is
a series of three books. What he's done is taken
real stories and changed the names and made it
into an entire series. And even though it's fictional
characters, they're all based on real people.
Real stories, real missions. I've recognized
more than one mission. And his third book has
been just on Lamson 719. which really, really,
really expressed how difficult things were for
us as Army aviators going into... Well, I have
a cousin who was a pilot during that incursion,
and his comment to me later was, when we went
out every day, we didn't guess, are we going
to take any rounds today? It's how many rounds
are we going to take today? They got shot up
virtually every time they went out, and this
went on for almost two months. So Matt has done
an excellent job of putting these stories together
into one character who's doing all of these things.
But again, I recognize some of the missions.
I've had the privilege of reviewing his books.
A couple of them I had already read, so that
was kind of an easy one there. But then also
Rex Gooch has done an excellent job. He did two
books on Ace Casalito. who was the first lieutenant,
loge pilot, and a little bit of everything. But
he really kind of started the Cav Hat experience,
I guess we're gonna call it. The third book that
Rex has done is just on the Cav Hat. And I mean,
besides Dr. Zeus, who would have thought you
could have done a book about a hat? but Rex did
an excellent job with it. And the thing that
I really liked about the book, he has a lot of
photos in it, not that I don't read, but a lot
of photos in it, but towards the end of the book
he has the the current troops that are wearing
the cap hat. not just the Vietnam guys. And one
picture in particular is a young lady, captain,
I think she's a helicopter pilot, maybe not,
doesn't make any difference, but you can just
see the pride in her face in this still black
and white picture of how proud she is to be wearing
this cap hat. I have to tell you, I was not in
the cap, so I hated that hat. All I got was a
dumb baseball cap that barely fit my head. Well,
yeah, I did, too. But I mean, what says US Army
more than a cavalry? I know, I know. It's a really
cool hat. You know, there's a great tradition
behind it and everything else. When I went to
one Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association convention,
and there they were. All these guys with the
cowboy hats on. I guess I'm jealous a little
bit. No, they're calf hats. No, I'm with you.
I don't have the credentials to wear one, but
I admire the guys that do. Well, sure. And a
lot of them had it a lot rougher than certainly
I did. I mean, I had a wooden hooch to sleep
in about every night. I know a lot of these guys
were living in tents. I mean, the whole tour.
Going to the bathroom and slit trenches. They
didn't even have what we had. Well, yeah, our
outhouses. Yes, our outhouses. Thanks. There
was a different way of thinking. Yeah, we can't
use that. I didn't use it. No, no. But anyway.
Uh, well, what I was getting at is that, uh,
uh, the, uh, the cat hat book was excellent.
Uh, I found myself smiling a lot here in the
stories and so on. Um, but, uh, like I say, Matt
Jackson's books, um, I, uh, you mentioned the
books that I've put together. Uh, I don't really
consider being an author to those books. What
I did was take other people's stories and put
them in one place to be seen. Now, I did have
to write a lot of them through interviews and
so on, but there are just some absolutely incredible
stories about heroism or just dumb luck, but
every one of them, the crew, all four aircraft,
or all four of the crew usually in the Huey,
were heroes. um granted the crew had to go where
the pilot said but more than once the pilot would
take a round look around behind him and he said
the guys in the back are giving him a thumbs
up you know let's go get them um that's the way
it was i didn't know who you were didn't know
the color of your skin didn't know your religion
but you were wearing the same uniform that i
was and you saluted the same flag so i'm going
to come get your butt I think that's one of the
things that every I think everybody kind of hopefully
realizes that the one thing about the American
military Historically has been that we never
leave anybody out in a field. Yeah, and you know
many times in Vietnam, which was you know was
a helicopter war Is that you know we would You
did it. You flew MEDEVAC. You would go out and
get wounded people all the time. Many times MEDEVACs
had no guns and no support, which is just crazy.
And I mean, sometimes we would be off. We didn't
have time to wait for the guns. This guy's out
there bleeding. I know. You couldn't leave them
there. I mean, I can relate. I got to fly a few
MEDEVAC missions just because I was in the neighborhood.
And the idea You know getting some of these people
and some of them were you know deep in the jungle
and you'd have to use a Penetrator or drop a
basket or you know something along those lines
to get them even get them out. Yeah Was was a
challenge But we always did it. We never we we
never I can remember my commanding officer When
I first got to Vietnam told us a story about
one of our helicopters that had gone down and
in the middle of a firefight and all this other
stuff. And they had another QA had come in and
tried to, you know, rescued everybody and they
took off and it came back. But it turns out that
in the confusion of war, the fog of war, they
had left a guy out in the field under the helicopter
because the helicopter had crashed and rolled
over on him. And they didn't know that he was
even alive. But he went crazy just from the anger
that you mean we never leave anybody out there
and he got into the helicopter himself and flew
out there to get the guy. Yeah. And I mean, that's
just that's just what we did. We were taught
that I think we were taught that from the first
day of basic training almost probably. But some
of the other books we did we mentioned that we
were talking a lot about, you know, the Vietnam
story and and so forth. And there are books that
are not just about helicopter pilots, although
we could go on about that for probably days.
Yes. Because we know so many people. But there
are other books that I, you know, I don't want
to leave anybody out. The idea of, you know,
we talked about Army nurses. I have talked to
a couple of Army nurses on our program and a
couple of their books that I would would recommend.
would be Home Before Morning by Linda Vandevere.
It's the story of an Army nurse. The Healing
Wounds by Diane Carlson Evans. Everybody who
knows about Army nurses during Vietnam has heard
her name. She was one of the ones really responsible
for getting the women's memorial next to the
wall in Vietnam. um there's actually go ahead
if i can interrupt i i have read her book and
did a review on it and what she went through
was absolutely irrehensible if that's the proper
word uh that all the bs that she got from washington
uh to put that up memorial oh yeah and she pursued
and persisted and uh just an amazing woman um
The last I heard she was not doing well health
wise, you know, she's still with us. Right. I
don't know for sure. I'm pretty sure she is,
but I did hear that she was not doing well. It
was an incredible book. Yeah. And, you know,
there's actually kind of getting off topic just
a little bit. There is a civilian book that was
written. It's called The Women and it's about
the nurses in Vietnam and it's about the women.
It's written by Kristen Hanna. And it's a book
I would recommend to anybody who wants to know
generally about what the nurses actually did
in Vietnam. And they did yeoman duty. I mean,
can you imagine the carnage that they witnessed
every single day and how they came out? And,
you know, you're always talking about, you know,
men with their post -traumatic stress. The things
that they went through couldn't help but guarantee
that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they did an amazing job.
And my understanding is that weren't all of them,
or at least most of them, volunteers? Yes. They
didn't get drafted. All the stories talk about,
well, not all of them, but some of them talk
about having relatives that were in Vietnam,
a brother that was there. And some of them wanted
to do their part. or that you know very patriotic
felt they needed to do this and You know, I think
that they were all volunteers. I don't remember
the number. I think it's about 8 ,000 You know
out of the what 2 million sounds about right
that were that were over there, but you know
anybody who was had had the Unfortunate, you
know the thing of getting shot down or getting
shot And we survived and went through one of
those hospitals Thank God for the nurses. They
talk about being the mothers, the sisters, the
girlfriends, the wives of talking to many of
these guys who were on their deathbed in some
cases, and they were the last people that they
saw. I'm sure you know, maybe your audience doesn't
know, but there are eight women on the wall in
DC, and one of them is a nurse who died in a
rocket attack. a rocket hit the recovery room
in the hospital, I believe, and she was killed.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's, you know, so
we did, you know, again, just to remind our audience
that it wasn't just guys that were, you know,
that were fighting this war, you know, that we
were, we were in the air and we were on the ground.
And many of us that were in the air, we went
into the air because we didn't want to be on
the ground. We thought we were really smart and
that didn't turn out to be the best idea. Now,
you're going to teach me to fly a helicopter?
Where do I sign? When can I leave? Oh, going
to Vietnam? That's okay. Just just teach me how
to fly. I can figure this out, you know, no problem.
But a couple of books that that people have talked
about, you know, we were talking earlier is about
helicopter pilots and so forth. And number one
was Chickenhawk. Chickenhawk, I think, was one
of the very first books that came out about being
a pilot in Vietnam. And that was I believe so.
That was Robert Mason. It came out in 1983. He
talks about his experience with the first calf
in 1965 -1966. He was there early on during the
war. Yeah, that was the first book about Vietnam
that I read. I thought he did an excellent job
with it. Yeah, it's a great story. If you get
the opportunity, I would check those out. A couple
of other helicopter books that I was thinking
of was, and you mentioned a couple of them already,
but there's Black Cat 21 by Bob Ford. Excellent
stories the chariots in the sky by Larry Freeland
Snake pilot which is a Cobra pilot gunship pilot
he talked Randy's on have you have you read that
one a long time ago? Yeah, well most of these
we read a long time ago Lifetime ago, but you
know that they're they're in the bookcase. That's
for sure. Yeah, the one that I talked to most
recently I guess was through the valley by William
Reeder. And he said he was the last soldier taken
prisoner. He was a helicopter pilot. He crashed
around Ben Het, which I think is up north. I
was in III Corps. Where were you stationed? I
was Northern I Corps. Oh, you were way up there.
Yeah, yeah, we had to talk North Vietnamese to
some of the local people. I guess. I guess so.
Yeah, we were the northernmost dust off the unit.
Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, he was the last
soldier taken prisoner in Vietnam. And it's a
very interesting, it's very scary story, because
it obviously could happen to any of us. Sure.
If we had gotten ourselves into trouble, which
luckily we escaped from all that stuff. I think
that was most of us biggest fear. Well, yeah
that and fire well that was fire was number two
for me prisoner was number one Number two was
fire. Well, you know sometimes when you did some
of these missions and you know I'm I'm just reading
a book that I got the other day about SOG Special
Operations Group and many of them the missions
that my unit flew were Across the fence, which
is another book out there that I just saw And
that was a big thing that I was worried about
over there. Not only was I going to get shot
down, I was going to get shot down out of the
country. And the Army had already told us that
they weren't going to acknowledge that we were
even there. And you have to leave all your credentials
and everything. No identification, no dog tags,
nothing. They wouldn't guess you were a US pilot.
They would never figure that out. Never guess.
No, and the helicopters that we flew were the
only ones that were authorized to be camouflaged.
They didn't even have numbers on the helicopter.
It's not like they're not going to know who we
are. Did you have whisper mode on your rotor
system so they couldn't hear you too? Yeah, it
was a silencer. That's part of the part of the
Nonsense and ineptitude of our leaders that that
you and I talked about earlier. How crazy is
you having to do that? It is crazy trying to
hide like I'm not from the United States No,
well, they did give us they gave us a What was
that thing? The blood shit thing. That was the
only thing that we carried which was kind of
dumb when you think it couldn't carry anything
else. The blood shit says I'm a member of the
United States military or United States citizen,
whatever. Right. And if you return me safely,
you'll get a reward. Yeah. Yeah. Got a case of
C rashes with your name on it. Yeah. All right.
Well, let's go. Let's let's talk about it. No,
that's okay. Tim O 'Brien. All right. Tim O 'Brien
wrote the probably the best known book about
Vietnam and the things that we carried and the
things they carried, which was his story of his
experiences in Vietnam. He wrote a number of
other books as well about Vietnam. But if you're
interested in learning about the Vietnam experience,
I think Tim O 'Brien is one of the good ones
to read. I haven't run across any bad ones yet.
I mean, some are better than others, but I haven't
run across any bad ones. They're all educational.
The kids in school today, if anything, they might
get two paragraphs about the Vietnam War. Right,
yeah. Again, that's like when we were in school
and we got two paragraphs about World War II.
Yeah, exactly. You know, they run out of time,
which is too bad. Yeah, yeah. And one book that
I talked to Phil about that I would recommend
if you're interested in finding out a lot about
the literature on Vietnam is called The Vietnam
Reader. And this came out in 1998. As I say,
it's called The Vietnam Reader. It's edited by
Stuart Onan. It's the definitive collection of
American fiction and nonfiction on the war. I'm
not even sure if the book is available, but if
you just put in Vietnam Reader, hopefully you'll
be able to get a hold of it. But it's got quotes
from many, many different books. It talks about
the music of Vietnam, which was very important
to us while we were there. If we hadn't had the
music from home, I don't know what we would have
done for any kind of relaxation. But it's got
poetry and everything else. It was who had the
biggest reel -to -reel tape recorder and had
the most music. That was the guy you looked up
to. That's right, yes. Big reel -to -reel. Everybody's
copying everybody else's tapes. And the nice
thing about it was, as a pilot, and I'm sure
maybe even the people that flew fast movers did,
you could listen to armed forces radio while
you were in the air. Yes, yes. But I rarely did.
I rarely did. Well, it was my ADF finder. Yeah,
yeah. I knew if I was going down, this is where
it was. But partly, I think, because our missions
were usually rather short. If we had a Nash and
Trash mission to Janang for documents or whatever,
yeah, that gave us time to listen because we
were up at altitude and stuff. But, yeah, on
our day -to -day missions, we rarely, rarely
had it on. But, yeah, we certainly appreciated
and enjoyed it. That's for darn sure. It was.
It was. It was great. And I can do that. So I
mentioned the things that the things they carried
by Tim O 'Brien. There's a book for, you know,
There were more and more minorities in the military
The long of the war went on it seemed and there
is a book out that's called Bloods. It's black
veterans of the Vietnam War It's an oral history
is by Wallace Terry and it was written in 1984
So the book is called Bloods black veterans of
the Vietnam War. It's I can't imagine You know
their experiences over there because it was Well,
it's the same as it was here at home. Many of
them did not get the opportunity to experience.
There weren't a lot of black pilots. And the
ones that I did know were always seemed to be
sent to the transportation platoon. It wasn't
really fair. I just read a book and the author's
name escapes me at the moment. Uh, but, uh, it
was a black pilot. Uh, I know Arnold Sampson
flew dust off, uh, was a black pilot. Uh, but,
uh, it was very, very well done. And the, uh,
yes, you're right. The, the stuff they had to
go through the racial stuff. Um, it's just a
shame. Um, it, uh, they, they were qualified
just like the rest of us and yet they were treated
differently. And that's not right. Oh, that's
not right. Um, there's a book about the music
that I wanted to mention people more Recent book
about it. It's called we got to get out of this
place A song that we were all very familiar with
but it was written by doug bradley and Doug bradley
is up in uh, where is he? He's up in wisconsin
And he's written all about the music of vietnam
And it's uh, it's a great story For those of
you that are Vietnam veterans, you'd love to
read it because you're going to recognize so
much of the music that he talks about. It's a
great story, and I give you the opportunity to
do that if you talk about the music of Vietnam.
Another book. Go ahead. I'm just going to say
the story or the book that I was mentioning about
the Black Pilot. The title is 600 M .O .L. more
or less 600 MOL black pilots. Okay. And that
says estimate on how many black helicopter pilots
there were in Vietnam. You know, weren't there
about 40 ,000 of us? That's, that's a number
that I've heard. Yes. I mean, over the whole
10 years. Oh, yeah. But of course, that would
have been Air Force and Navy and, and everything.
But yeah, this was 600 MOL. more or less black
pilots. And that was an excellent book. And I
really felt sorry for the guys that, you know,
I have no prejudices. Like I say, I never asked
what color the guys were on the ground. But yeah,
they went through a lot more than we did. Well,
again, yeah, it's another good, good story. There's
a book that I had the good fortune of talking
to the author Carl Morlan is called Matterhorn.
and it's kind of a fictional account of his experiences
in Vietnam. He was a Marine up in I Corps, I
believe it was, and he's just, it's a, it's a
really powerful, disturbing story of what Marine
infantry men went through during their tours
and, you know, of taking an object and then They'd
leave the top of a mountain and go someplace
else, and then they'd be told to go back and
take the mountain again. Yeah, isn't that crazy?
Absolutely crazy. And that happened over and
over again. And I think that was some of the
frustration that many of us felt over there,
is that we kept taking the same places over and
over again. Yeah. What's that? The definition
of insanity? Yeah, doing the same thing over
again over and over and over and over and over
again. Yeah, expecting a different outcome Doesn't
work that way Never works that way. So that's
better when I are smarter than that. I know we're
so much better than that Let's see, what do we
got here on my list? I've got a book. Oh the
short timers short timers by Gustav Hansford
1979 it is Loosely it was written and then full
metal jacket was loosely based on it About the
you know, the Marines Marine training and then
their experiences in Vietnam, but it's a Again,
very fascinating interesting story. There aren't
you know, there are some books about the Vietnam
War that some people have attempted to make humorous
and They're humorous if you were there, I don't
think you would find them very humorous if you
were not there. Kind of in humor, I guess you
would call it. Full metal jacket, I never read
the book, but I did not like the movie. I didn't
think it was accurate. I wasn't a Marine, so
I don't know, but I just thought it was a little
bit too much. Yeah, that was one of the first
Vietnam movies I watched and I was not real happy
with it. Now I wasn't just once outstanding.
Yeah How more yeah, I Don't want to say too much
but there there's someone that's attempting to
make a Vietnam movie based on the helicopter
pilots and They have been working with how more
and how more said if you get 70 % of what you
want in the movie You're doing good Oh, absolutely.
Can you imagine the cost of putting together
a movie about helicopter pilots? Yeah, yeah,
you know, you're gonna be pulling all that gonna
be pulling all those Huey monuments Yeah, no
now we have to do that. Yeah. Well, you know,
we I took a stare. How much time have I got after
I play a gym segment? Four minutes after that.
Okay. Well, I'm gonna didn't forget that it's
there a couple of more real quick books I'm going
to go to you. There's some history books that
you may want to read. There's The Best and the
Brightest by David Alberston. That's one that's
always out there. There is Stanley Karnow, which
is The Vietnam, The History, which goes along
with the American Experience series on PBS. Very
thorough if you want to know what went on, at
least the background of what went on over in
Vietnam. Those are two really good books that
you might want to look at. Anymore you'd like
to mention? Not off the top of my head. Like
I say, as being the book reviewer for the Vietnam
Helicopter Pilots Association Aviator magazine
now, I've read a lot and really there's none
that I can't recommend. true from the heart stories
and some of them are pretty incredible and um
while no one would ever know what it was like
without being there he gives you some of them
give you a pretty good taste yes i can't remember
i wrote it down and now i can't find my note
about it one guy was it was about a hunter killer
team and our killer team was a loach that would
fly low level with a uh cobra up above and they
would go down those who just fly along the treetops
looking for the bad guys. Snake country or something?
Snake pilot, that's what it was. Yeah, that's
a great story. There are so many out there. All
you got to do, folks, is just, you know, when
you get on your computer and Google Vietnam helicopter
pilot stories, you're going to find hundreds
of books, really. Some of them are very good.
Some of them are All the stories are good. They're
very educational. Everybody's got a different
insight as to what was going on. Well, if you
go on Google and just search Vietnam helicopter,
you'll come up with a few hundred books. And
of course, they're all rated one to five stars.
And that should give you a pretty good indication.
OK. All right. Well, we're going to fill. We're
going to I got to play another segment here.
So hold on. My partner Jim Falzone has recorded
a series of issues about the upcoming Medal of
Honor Convention in Detroit at the end of September.
So we're going to play this right now. We'll
be back after about three minutes. The Congressional
Medal of Honor Society Convention will be held
in Detroit from September 29th to October 3rd
of 2026, featuring the largest gathering of living
Medal of Honor recipients. It brings together
as many as 60 living Medal of Honor recipients
for a series of public and private events aimed
at sharing their heroic stories and promoting
the values of the Medal of Honor, such as commitment,
integrity, courage, sacrifice, citizenship, and
patriotism. This event will also include community
engagement activities allowing recipients to
connect with the local Metro Detroit students.
veterans and active military members. This convention
represents a unique opportunity for the City
of Detroit and surrounding area to honor its
military heroes and foster a spirit of patriotism
and community engagement. You can learn more
about this upcoming convention at medalofhonoredetroit
.com. You can go there to support it with financial
resources and volunteer support. Let me tell
you about one of these men. Ken David was born
in a quiet steel town in Gerrard, Ohio. He was
a serious kid and made the rank of Eagle Scout.
And he went right from Gerrard High School into
Vietnam. He completed basic training and advanced
training and found himself in 1970. really at
the height of the Vietnam era. His unit came
under fire attack and David repeatedly exposed
himself to fierce enemy fire, drawing attention
away from wounded comrades. Even after being
wounded by a satchel charge, he continued to
fight to move to pull others to safety. David
simply says, I did what I was trained to do.
His distinguished service cross was upgraded
to the Medal of Honor 45 years after those heroics.
Yet, the war did not end when David came home.
He talks about his transition to civilian life
was marked by emotional struggle, disillusionment,
and trauma. He went to work as an HVAC tradesman,
settling into the rhythm of blue -collar labor
in Crumble County, Ohio. The trade gave him steady
purpose. gave him his smile back. Over the decades
he spent a lot of time working with other veterans
and veteran groups because he knew how important
that was based on his own experiences. He's a
very humble man and his valor is not really measured
by that one single day but in the quiet decades
afterwards where he chose again and again to
serve his fellow veterans. You can learn more
about these men by going to the Congressional
Medal of Honor Society site, cmohs .org, and
remember to visit medalofhonoredetroit .com.
Okay, so I want to thank everybody for listening
today. I want to thank Bill Marshall for coming
on and talking about some of these books that
we've been reading over the years about Vietnam.
You can find these lists, as we mentioned, just
go into Google and put down Vietnam War books
and you'll have plenty to read about. Nurses,
pilots, infantry, navy, coast guard, everybody
that's out there, Air Force 2 of course, but
you got great stories. And the other thing I
wanted to make sure is I want to make want you
to check out Bravo Zulu House. I think this is
this is kind of an unusual organization, you
know, and what their specialty is, is, you know,
helping people get sober, working through their
post -traumatic stress, a lot of great things.
I think we want you to check that out, bravozuluhouse
.org. And again, I want to thank Phil for talking
about the books. Next week we're going to be
doing a benefits program. And so if you've got
any questions, please send me an email, dale
at veteransradio .org. We will attempt to order
them. Lots of things going on at the VA. By the
way, they rescinded that order that they were
going to lower disability benefits if your medication
took care of your particular condition. They
got rid of that. You can relax and breathe that.
So until next week, this is Dale Thornberry for
all of us here at Veterans Radio. We greatly
appreciate your listening to our program, and
until then, you are dismissed. Stand beside her,
and guide her Through the night with the light
from above From the mountain, to the prairie,
to the ocean White with morn, God bless them
America, my home sweet home God bless America,
my home sweet home