WEBVTT 00:00:03.360 --> 00:00:06.219 From the studios of Ave Maria Radio in Ann Arbor, 00:00:06.500 --> 00:00:09.619 this is Veterans Radio. And now, here's your 00:00:09.619 --> 00:00:15.580 host, Gary Lilley. And good morning out there. 00:00:16.199 --> 00:00:19.379 This is Gary Lilley, former CB, sitting here 00:00:19.379 --> 00:00:22.239 in the studios of the Ave Maria Network in Ann 00:00:22.239 --> 00:00:26.559 Arbor, along with Bob Gould. Hoo -ah. Hoo -ah. 00:00:26.660 --> 00:00:31.399 Hoo -ah. Old 101st medic. 101st. Ken Rogge back 00:00:31.399 --> 00:00:35.950 there on the board. Ken was with Armed Forces 00:00:35.950 --> 00:00:38.310 radio for all these years, so he really knows 00:00:38.310 --> 00:00:41.149 what he's doing Today's show is going to be on 00:00:41.149 --> 00:00:44.530 PTSD never met anybody with it, but I keep reading 00:00:44.530 --> 00:00:48.250 about it Being a little bit of a smart aleck 00:00:48.250 --> 00:00:52.270 there it affects quite a few Indeed it does right 00:00:52.270 --> 00:00:57.409 if you look at what? How that manifests itself, 00:00:57.429 --> 00:00:59.409 and you'll start to recognize that and other 00:00:59.409 --> 00:01:02.820 people Well, the truth of the matter is I've 00:01:02.820 --> 00:01:06.260 got some friends that have severe cases of PTSD. 00:01:08.060 --> 00:01:11.560 A good friend of mine, his hands shake constantly 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:14.140 and he was talking one day about how good he 00:01:14.140 --> 00:01:16.560 feels now that he's on some new medications and 00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:18.400 I was looking at his hands and he could hardly 00:01:18.400 --> 00:01:22.200 drink coffee. He was a sniper, a marine sniper. 00:01:22.519 --> 00:01:26.340 Good dear friend of mine. But we've got a few 00:01:26.340 --> 00:01:29.180 welcome homes. No, first we've got a news item 00:01:29.180 --> 00:01:31.459 that Ken wants to read. The United States Air 00:01:31.459 --> 00:01:33.480 Force will host several events in conjunction 00:01:33.480 --> 00:01:36.200 with the Doolittle Tokyo Raider's 65th annual 00:01:36.200 --> 00:01:39.439 reunion in San Antonio, Texas this week. The 00:01:39.439 --> 00:01:41.480 raid, which was ordered by President Franklin 00:01:41.480 --> 00:01:44.400 Roosevelt as America's response to the surprise 00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:47.060 attack on Pearl Harbor, remains one of the most 00:01:47.060 --> 00:01:50.439 daring combat missions in American history. On 00:01:50.439 --> 00:01:54.540 April 18, 1942, famed aviation pioneer Lieutenant 00:01:54.540 --> 00:01:57.879 Colonel Jimmy Doolittle and 79 other volunteers 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:01.760 launched 16 B -25 Mitchell bombers from the deck 00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:04.879 of the USS Hornet. It was a bold and audacious 00:02:04.879 --> 00:02:07.500 mission and gave America a much needed boost 00:02:07.500 --> 00:02:09.840 in morale in the early days of World War II. 00:02:10.699 --> 00:02:12.879 Doolittle, who was already famous for setting 00:02:12.879 --> 00:02:15.639 aviation speed and endurance records throughout 00:02:15.639 --> 00:02:19.039 the 1920s and 1930s, became a national hero. 00:02:19.129 --> 00:02:21.409 and went on to command the 8th Air Force in Europe 00:02:21.409 --> 00:02:26.289 at the close of World War II. He died in 1993 00:02:26.289 --> 00:02:29.789 and remains the only person to have ever held 00:02:29.789 --> 00:02:32.330 both of America's highest military and civilian 00:02:32.330 --> 00:02:35.469 awards, the Medal of Honor and the Medal of Freedom. 00:02:36.349 --> 00:02:38.849 Of the 79 men who took off with Doolittle that 00:02:38.849 --> 00:02:41.530 day, three were killed during the mission, five 00:02:41.530 --> 00:02:44.689 were interred in Russia, and eight became prisoners 00:02:44.689 --> 00:02:48.900 of war in Japan. Of those POWs, three were executed 00:02:48.900 --> 00:02:51.860 by firing squad and another died in captivity. 00:02:52.719 --> 00:02:54.800 Thirteen others would die later in the war and 00:02:54.800 --> 00:02:58.300 there are fourteen Raiders alive today. The reunions 00:02:58.300 --> 00:03:01.520 which began as a birthday party for Doolittle, 00:03:01.719 --> 00:03:05.699 hosted in 1947, had evolved into an annual gathering 00:03:05.699 --> 00:03:07.840 of one of the most elite military fraternities 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:13.009 in the world. At every reunion, surviving raiders 00:03:13.009 --> 00:03:16.009 meet privately to conduct a solemn goblet ceremony. 00:03:16.830 --> 00:03:19.129 After a roll call and a toast to the raiders 00:03:19.129 --> 00:03:21.849 who have died since their last meeting, the remaining 00:03:21.849 --> 00:03:24.550 raiders turn the deceased men's goblets upside 00:03:24.550 --> 00:03:27.550 down. When only two raiders remain, they will 00:03:27.550 --> 00:03:31.710 open a bottle of brandy from 1896, the year of 00:03:31.710 --> 00:03:34.469 Doolittle's birth, and toast their fallen comrades. 00:03:34.919 --> 00:03:37.360 The 80 goblets, which are normally on display 00:03:37.360 --> 00:03:39.280 at the National Museum of the United States Air 00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:41.759 Force, will be brought to San Antonio by United 00:03:41.759 --> 00:03:45.080 States Air Force Academy cadets. And this year's 00:03:45.080 --> 00:03:48.039 goblet ceremony will be on Wednesday. The Raiders 00:03:48.039 --> 00:03:50.479 will arrive at Randolph Air Force Base on Tuesday. 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:54.219 There will be a fly -in of vintage B -25s. That's 00:03:54.219 --> 00:03:59.560 interesting. And they will... feature a flyover, 00:03:59.879 --> 00:04:01.819 and they're going to attend the graduation of 00:04:01.819 --> 00:04:04.719 basic military training cadets. And the Raiders 00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:08.500 this year, scheduled to attend, there's just 00:04:08.500 --> 00:04:11.419 a few of them. Colonel Bauer, Lieutenant Colonel 00:04:11.419 --> 00:04:14.520 Cole, a Major Griffin, Lieutenant Colonel Hite, 00:04:15.060 --> 00:04:18.939 Master Sergeant Horton, Major General David Jones, 00:04:19.259 --> 00:04:24.000 and Staff Sergeant David Thatcher. And I just 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:26.500 think it's phenomenal that these men are still 00:04:26.500 --> 00:04:29.949 around. and still being remembered. There Ken, 00:04:30.430 --> 00:04:33.250 and did you know that General Doolittle had a 00:04:33.250 --> 00:04:36.769 PhD in aeronautics? Yes I did, yes I did. Incredibly 00:04:36.769 --> 00:04:40.889 intelligent person. Another news item is that 00:04:40.889 --> 00:04:42.810 the Army is going to be fielding their improved 00:04:42.810 --> 00:04:46.410 body armor. It's continuing to upgrade the body 00:04:46.410 --> 00:04:48.550 armor to increase the protection from bullets 00:04:48.550 --> 00:04:53.529 and fragments and the new improved outer tactical 00:04:53.529 --> 00:04:57.949 vest to soldiers. improved outer tactical vest. 00:04:58.649 --> 00:05:01.209 It's being deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan. 00:05:02.529 --> 00:05:05.410 They're saying that the IOTV is more than three 00:05:05.410 --> 00:05:08.790 pounds lighter than the current OTV, but provides 00:05:08.790 --> 00:05:11.389 an equal level of protection over an increased 00:05:11.389 --> 00:05:16.310 area. That was Brigadier General Mark Brown. 00:05:17.069 --> 00:05:21.009 And I saw something on television about it. They 00:05:21.009 --> 00:05:24.819 have an armor called... dragon skin or something 00:05:24.819 --> 00:05:31.279 of that nature. It's a ceramic, ceramic disc 00:05:31.279 --> 00:05:34.240 that looked like silver dollars that are overlaid 00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:37.779 and looked like dragon skin. I saw a demonstration 00:05:37.779 --> 00:05:41.199 of it where the man stood about 40 feet away 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:45.800 with the AK -47 firing into it and it didn't 00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:48.860 penetrate it. That's an awesome, you know, because 00:05:48.860 --> 00:05:51.189 the old stuff would stop fragments, but it wouldn't 00:05:51.189 --> 00:05:53.310 stop bullets. How do they keep that stuff out 00:05:53.310 --> 00:05:56.009 of the public, though? Well, you know, the interesting 00:05:56.009 --> 00:05:57.930 thing was they showed it being assembled, but 00:05:57.930 --> 00:06:02.610 they said that the formula for the ceramic was 00:06:02.610 --> 00:06:06.029 highly secret, and they were afraid, you know, 00:06:06.029 --> 00:06:08.689 but I was kind of surprised to see them showing 00:06:08.689 --> 00:06:10.709 the manufacture right there. How soon will it 00:06:10.709 --> 00:06:14.410 be on eBay? Let's hope it never gets on eBay. 00:06:14.430 --> 00:06:17.389 Oh, absolutely, no. But once that's loose on 00:06:17.389 --> 00:06:19.839 the public, it's loose. that's in the community. 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:25.519 You're touching on a really interesting point, 00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:30.660 Bob. What we're doing with our military research 00:06:30.660 --> 00:06:35.319 is that we are jobbing it out, and in a lot of 00:06:35.319 --> 00:06:38.740 cases, then it's being subcontracted to places 00:06:38.740 --> 00:06:43.740 in China that has our top secret formulas or 00:06:43.740 --> 00:06:46.579 top secret technology, and we're saying, please 00:06:46.579 --> 00:06:50.540 make this product for us. Sending it to places 00:06:50.540 --> 00:06:53.759 like China because it's cheaper. Can you imagine 00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:59.120 that? Not long ago, they got the contract to 00:06:59.120 --> 00:07:02.519 build our night vision goggles. Now up to now, 00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:04.220 we've been the only person that had them. So 00:07:04.220 --> 00:07:07.100 hey, China, here's how you do it. Make them for 00:07:07.100 --> 00:07:09.079 us. It sounds like the barn door's open now. 00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:13.500 There's some real problems going on with our 00:07:13.500 --> 00:07:16.800 technology. It's being jobbed out to places like 00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:19.939 the universities. who are then turning it over 00:07:19.939 --> 00:07:24.439 to rogue nations. I think we're going to have 00:07:24.439 --> 00:07:26.399 a future show on that with what's happening with 00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:28.620 our military technology and how we're giving 00:07:28.620 --> 00:07:31.439 it away. And what we can do about it. And what 00:07:31.439 --> 00:07:34.259 can be done about it. And we're coming up on 00:07:34.259 --> 00:07:38.720 the Welcome Home and Bob Gold, you've got some 00:07:38.720 --> 00:07:41.279 troops to welcome home. Well each week on Veterans 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:43.519 Radio we like to welcome home servicemen and 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:46.379 women who have been... Stationed around the world 00:07:46.379 --> 00:07:48.579 in the service of their country. We'll start 00:07:48.579 --> 00:07:51.680 with tonight The second battalion Irish Regiment 00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:54.139 of Canada is inviting the public to welcome home 00:07:54.139 --> 00:07:57.060 six soldiers from Sudbury, Canada And that will 00:07:57.060 --> 00:08:00.860 be today April the 14th in 2007 Sudbury. That's 00:08:00.860 --> 00:08:05.199 where the hockey player I was going to say, yes, 00:08:05.379 --> 00:08:08.980 Hockey Town, that would be a little north of 00:08:08.980 --> 00:08:11.800 Windsor. 99, what was 99? Gretzky, there we go. 00:08:12.259 --> 00:08:14.879 Okay. Okay, well we also like to welcome home 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:18.379 the 2nd Battalion Irish Regiment. Soldiers from 00:08:18.379 --> 00:08:20.899 the 3rd Battalion, 4th Air Defense Artillery 00:08:20.899 --> 00:08:24.160 Regiment, and the 27th Engineer Battalion, they 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:27.199 received a welcome home celebration at Fort Bragg, 00:08:27.500 --> 00:08:31.339 North Carolina. A welcome home ceremony was also 00:08:31.339 --> 00:08:34.200 held for the soldiers of the Marine Army National 00:08:34.200 --> 00:08:38.539 Guard 240th Engineers Group, and they are stationed 00:08:38.539 --> 00:08:42.759 at the Augusta State Armory in Augusta, Maine. 00:08:48.090 --> 00:08:52.690 Andrew canard he was reunited Reunited with this 00:08:52.690 --> 00:08:56.629 platoon of the second marine division second 00:08:56.629 --> 00:09:00.169 light armored reconnaissance battalion in Camp 00:09:00.169 --> 00:09:04.690 Lejeune California second lieutenant canard lost 00:09:04.690 --> 00:09:07.570 both of his legs from a roadside bomb in October 00:09:07.570 --> 00:09:13.110 the It's amazing the technology. I was at Chicago 00:09:13.110 --> 00:09:17.100 for the a marathon last year Right north of there 00:09:17.100 --> 00:09:20.620 is the Great Lakes Hospital. Right. And I was 00:09:20.620 --> 00:09:23.019 stunned at the number of young people that were 00:09:23.019 --> 00:09:25.399 entering this marathon. It was a triathlon, actually. 00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:29.879 No legs, one leg, arms missing. And I couldn't 00:09:29.879 --> 00:09:31.679 figure it out until I realized that the hospital 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:34.700 was just north of there. God bless them. Also, 00:09:34.899 --> 00:09:38.580 troops from the Ohio National Guard, 174th Air 00:09:38.580 --> 00:09:41.080 Defense Artillery B Battery, they were honored 00:09:41.080 --> 00:09:45.950 in a welcome home ceremony in Sharonville. Ohio. 00:09:46.649 --> 00:09:50.830 A ceremony was also held in Alaska, Onalaska, 00:09:51.490 --> 00:09:55.009 Wisconsin to honor members of the 458th Ordnance 00:09:55.009 --> 00:09:58.870 Service Company. That's a Onalaska -based Army 00:09:58.870 --> 00:10:02.490 Reserves unit. A welcome home parade was held 00:10:02.490 --> 00:10:05.309 for Welsh Guardsmen at Wellington Barracks in 00:10:05.309 --> 00:10:09.049 London, England. And last, soldiers from the 00:10:09.049 --> 00:10:13.190 244th Army liaison team were honored in a welcome 00:10:13.190 --> 00:10:18.450 home ceremony at Chicago's Northwest Side Welcome 00:10:18.450 --> 00:10:21.470 home to all of you. God bless And we're back 00:10:21.470 --> 00:10:23.429 on veterans radio and we're going to be talking 00:10:23.429 --> 00:10:27.429 about PTSD today. Our first guest is Dr. Tom 00:10:27.429 --> 00:10:31.100 Berger who's a life member of Vietnam Veterans 00:10:31.100 --> 00:10:35.000 of America and national chair of the PTSD committee. 00:10:35.620 --> 00:10:39.700 Dr. Berger was a Navy corpsman with the 3rd Marine 00:10:39.700 --> 00:10:43.580 Division. That means he got into a little bit 00:10:43.580 --> 00:10:45.659 of problems up there, I'd say. He was wounded 00:10:45.659 --> 00:10:50.679 twice. He served from October 1966 to May 1968, 00:10:50.820 --> 00:10:53.879 which means he was there for Tet. Dr. Berger, 00:10:54.899 --> 00:10:57.279 welcome to Veterans Radio. Well, it's great to 00:10:57.279 --> 00:11:00.139 be here. Thanks, Gary, for inviting me. Absolutely. 00:11:01.340 --> 00:11:05.059 PTSD is a severe problem for troops that have 00:11:05.059 --> 00:11:08.679 served, and I'd like you to tell our audience 00:11:08.679 --> 00:11:12.620 exactly what is PTSD, if there's a definition 00:11:12.620 --> 00:11:17.080 for it. Well, obviously, it's a post -traumatic 00:11:17.080 --> 00:11:21.120 stress disorder. There's a long and varied history. 00:11:21.820 --> 00:11:24.299 Most of the time, in a brief fashion, it goes 00:11:24.299 --> 00:11:28.120 back was identified initially in the Civil War 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:32.940 as Soldier's Heart, shell shock in World War 00:11:32.940 --> 00:11:38.679 I, on through until Vietnam when we initially 00:11:38.679 --> 00:11:42.259 began to call it post -Vietnam syndrome, then 00:11:42.259 --> 00:11:44.860 largely through the efforts of Vietnam veterans. 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:52.179 It was included in the DSM -IV or at that time 00:11:52.179 --> 00:11:56.070 DSM -III manual. in the late 70s, early 80s, 00:11:56.070 --> 00:11:59.850 and it is a recognizable disease now that affects 00:11:59.850 --> 00:12:04.330 your mind and body on occasion, because there 00:12:04.330 --> 00:12:08.029 is a link. Indeed, there is a link between stress 00:12:08.029 --> 00:12:14.370 and physical condition. Are people sick more 00:12:14.370 --> 00:12:17.330 often when they have high stress? Absolutely. 00:12:17.590 --> 00:12:19.789 All the evidence points to that. In fact, some 00:12:19.789 --> 00:12:23.879 of the seminal cases to prove that link have 00:12:23.879 --> 00:12:26.340 been done by a vietnam that uh... doctor joseph 00:12:26.340 --> 00:12:29.279 boscarino from uh... new york uh... who served 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:31.720 with the artillery army artillery units over 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:34.620 there uh... but it's clear that that there is 00:12:34.620 --> 00:12:37.799 a link because obviously when you're stressed 00:12:37.799 --> 00:12:41.720 uh... and has an impact on your immune system 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:45.240 immune defenses of your body or lowered and so 00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:47.840 you're much more susceptible to other kinds of 00:12:47.840 --> 00:12:54.539 of illnesses I had five uncles in World War II, 00:12:54.899 --> 00:13:00.059 and some of them suffered badly from PTSD, whatever 00:13:00.059 --> 00:13:02.940 it was called in those days. And grandfather 00:13:02.940 --> 00:13:07.159 of mine was in World War I with the Royal Seaforth 00:13:07.159 --> 00:13:09.320 Highlanders. My grandmother said up until the 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:13.039 day he died when he was 72 years old that he 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:16.210 would have nightmares at night. The same thing 00:13:16.210 --> 00:13:19.710 in my family. Both my parents were veterans. 00:13:19.929 --> 00:13:21.850 My father was a Pacific Marine who was wounded 00:13:21.850 --> 00:13:26.889 at Tarawa. My mother was a Navy nurse at San 00:13:26.889 --> 00:13:30.269 Diego. In fact, that's the reason I'm here, because 00:13:30.269 --> 00:13:36.009 I met. But in any case, while my dad never specifically 00:13:36.009 --> 00:13:40.909 mentioned it as a form of illness, it's clear 00:13:40.909 --> 00:13:44.320 that there were discussions amongst him and his 00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:48.320 friends were similar to those kinds of conversations 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:51.139 between Vietnam veterans and the new vets that 00:13:51.139 --> 00:13:54.019 indicated that he had PTSD. But it was my grandmother 00:13:54.019 --> 00:13:57.659 who actually told me stories about his nightmares 00:13:57.659 --> 00:14:02.059 and her having to intervene on several occasions 00:14:02.059 --> 00:14:06.840 because he became violent. Is it only combat 00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:10.419 veterans quote unquote that come down with PTSD? 00:14:10.759 --> 00:14:14.659 No, no. I mean PTSD can be caused by a number 00:14:14.659 --> 00:14:18.039 of things, including combat exposure, serious 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:23.019 accident or a natural disaster such as 9 -1 -1, 00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:28.320 rape or criminal assault, child sexual or physical 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:35.120 abuse or severe neglect, hostage situations of 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:38.500 POWs, displacement, refugee displacement, for 00:14:38.500 --> 00:14:42.019 example, in wartime. witnessing a traumatic event. 00:14:42.700 --> 00:14:46.100 And of course, the sudden unexpected death of 00:14:46.100 --> 00:14:49.460 a loved one. All of those things can have an 00:14:49.460 --> 00:14:52.059 impact in person and can cause PTSD. I have a 00:14:52.059 --> 00:14:54.940 question, Dr. Berger. This is Bob Gould. Welcome. 00:14:55.259 --> 00:15:01.559 Welcome. How is this recognized? How do I want 00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:04.629 to formulate this question? Is it? Is it now 00:15:04.629 --> 00:15:07.210 official? Has it been recognized, let's say, 00:15:07.230 --> 00:15:11.330 by the AMA or the psychiatric association? Is 00:15:11.330 --> 00:15:13.470 it something that you can actually can point 00:15:13.470 --> 00:15:19.889 to? And it does have a list of things that manifest 00:15:19.889 --> 00:15:23.710 themselves with you that is recognized. In other 00:15:23.710 --> 00:15:27.690 words, is there a way to give a diagnosis? Is 00:15:27.690 --> 00:15:33.730 there a template? Absolutely. There are a number 00:15:33.730 --> 00:15:40.009 of diagnostic, valid diagnostic tests that can 00:15:40.009 --> 00:15:43.950 be performed to indicate not only the presence 00:15:43.950 --> 00:15:50.570 of PTSD but its severity. And it's well recognized 00:15:50.570 --> 00:15:53.870 amongst both the medical community and the mental 00:15:53.870 --> 00:15:59.259 health community. I would add one thing. As the 00:15:59.259 --> 00:16:01.940 current war drags on, we're learning that there 00:16:01.940 --> 00:16:05.299 are a number of other related kinds of combat 00:16:05.299 --> 00:16:08.159 injuries, traumatic brain injury, for example, 00:16:08.840 --> 00:16:15.879 where some of the same symptoms of PTSD occur, 00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:20.659 but they do not necessarily indicate PTSD. So 00:16:20.659 --> 00:16:25.879 what I'm saying here is that The use of these 00:16:25.879 --> 00:16:30.539 valid diagnostic assessment tools are very important 00:16:30.539 --> 00:16:34.320 in determining not only whether PTSD exists or 00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:36.759 not, but the severity of it. Has that been accepted 00:16:36.759 --> 00:16:40.019 across the board in the medical community? Pretty 00:16:40.019 --> 00:16:44.399 much so, at least amongst the American Psychiatric 00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:47.860 Association and the American Psychological Association. 00:16:48.500 --> 00:16:53.200 Let's talk about the Vietnam War, that's what 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:55.539 I think most of our listeners are familiar with, 00:16:55.740 --> 00:16:58.980 and then compare it to the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. 00:17:01.039 --> 00:17:04.579 Going back to the question about is it only combat 00:17:04.579 --> 00:17:09.500 veterans that get it, I understand that people 00:17:09.500 --> 00:17:12.740 that were in a high -stress situation that were 00:17:12.740 --> 00:17:15.799 not considered combat veterans, convoy drivers 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:19.539 as an example. I don't think people would say 00:17:19.539 --> 00:17:21.380 they're combat veterans, but they were under 00:17:21.380 --> 00:17:24.440 a high level of stress when they were running 00:17:24.440 --> 00:17:28.900 those convoys. That's right. That's even exemplified. 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:32.039 Here's a point where we can actually sort of 00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:37.160 compare or bring in the new war efforts and veterans 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:42.480 into the situation. Vietnam was largely a war 00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:48.569 without fronts. And so you had support personnel, 00:17:48.910 --> 00:17:51.769 people stationed on bases, you had medical personnel 00:17:51.769 --> 00:17:58.609 stationed on bases that took incoming or what 00:17:58.609 --> 00:18:02.269 do they call them, insurgence attacks, that sort 00:18:02.269 --> 00:18:04.609 of thing. So there was a constant level of stress. 00:18:05.309 --> 00:18:09.230 And that's exemplified by the war over in Iraq 00:18:09.230 --> 00:18:11.009 and Afghanistan right now. You don't know who 00:18:11.009 --> 00:18:15.660 the enemy is driving a truck. You're just as 00:18:15.660 --> 00:18:19.559 likely in terms of being exposed to hostile fire 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:23.220 or, in this case, today's war IEDs and stuff. 00:18:24.660 --> 00:18:28.559 So really, it's not just serving in a ground 00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:32.700 unit or a combat unit now. Just one further item 00:18:32.700 --> 00:18:37.920 about that. The more severe the combat experience 00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:42.960 and the longer you serve in combat does have 00:18:42.970 --> 00:18:49.130 an impact on how strong your PTSD may become? 00:18:49.869 --> 00:18:53.410 I've got a personal observation that I made that 00:18:53.410 --> 00:18:57.750 may or may not be valid. The Vietnam POWs, I 00:18:57.750 --> 00:19:01.329 don't think anybody had a more prolonged experience 00:19:01.329 --> 00:19:05.410 than did they, and I don't think anybody had 00:19:05.410 --> 00:19:08.710 worse experience than them enduring constant 00:19:08.710 --> 00:19:12.910 torture. Yet, I'm familiar with a lot of the 00:19:12.839 --> 00:19:16.859 Vietnam POWs, they seem to be better adjusted 00:19:16.859 --> 00:19:20.240 than the grunts that came home one by one. Am 00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:23.819 I wrong, or is there something to that? Well, 00:19:24.180 --> 00:19:30.220 I think one factor that enters into this is that 00:19:30.220 --> 00:19:39.460 many of the POWs were highly recognized. In other 00:19:39.460 --> 00:19:42.839 words, they were in the limelight. So, just as 00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:46.519 in the case of a number of current veterans, 00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:50.259 they received, when they came back, there were 00:19:50.259 --> 00:19:53.819 special efforts made to deal with their illnesses, 00:19:53.900 --> 00:19:56.299 both physical and mental, that they'd received 00:19:56.299 --> 00:20:02.559 as a result of their incarceration. And so, it's 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:07.380 quite possible that there were special dedicated 00:20:07.380 --> 00:20:12.609 efforts. to help these folks. And that could 00:20:12.609 --> 00:20:16.309 be one reason. But I'll remind you that during 00:20:16.309 --> 00:20:21.849 the last presidential campaign where Senator 00:20:21.849 --> 00:20:26.269 McCain was running for the nomination, several 00:20:26.269 --> 00:20:28.950 of the media people in interviewing him and stuff, 00:20:29.710 --> 00:20:32.150 despite the pressures that goes along with being 00:20:32.150 --> 00:20:35.970 under the media scrutiny, accused his temper 00:20:35.970 --> 00:20:39.720 as being a result of having served, you know, 00:20:39.799 --> 00:20:43.759 as a prisoner of war. That's something that I've 00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:46.700 learned over the years to ignore as the media 00:20:46.700 --> 00:20:51.019 and gather my own information and make up my 00:20:51.019 --> 00:20:54.680 own mind. But what you're talking about is another 00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:57.420 theory that I came up with, and maybe you can 00:20:57.420 --> 00:21:04.160 debunk it or affirm it, is that PTSD is a combination 00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:10.119 of pre -war or pre -event, the event itself, 00:21:10.500 --> 00:21:15.200 and then post -event. In other words, what kind 00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:17.819 of family did you come from? What was your upbringing? 00:21:18.619 --> 00:21:20.680 What happened to you during the event, whether 00:21:20.680 --> 00:21:23.940 it was a war or whatever? And then how are you 00:21:23.940 --> 00:21:28.640 treated by society afterwards? Absolutely. You're 00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:32.750 not alone in making those links. uh... that's 00:21:32.750 --> 00:21:36.069 particularly exemplified in uh... the case of 00:21:36.069 --> 00:21:39.410 the current veterans where uh... presently we 00:21:39.410 --> 00:21:41.970 have anywhere from fifteen to seventeen percent 00:21:41.970 --> 00:21:47.890 of our active -duty force are women who uh... 00:21:47.890 --> 00:21:49.789 and we're going to get into that later with the 00:21:49.789 --> 00:21:52.569 market for uh... but anyway you're absolutely 00:21:52.569 --> 00:21:56.509 right on on that on that one it is uh... combination 00:21:56.509 --> 00:22:00.779 of pre -deployment events if you will your childhood 00:22:00.779 --> 00:22:03.579 experiences all those kinds of things then what 00:22:03.579 --> 00:22:07.460 happened to you during the war daddy and then 00:22:07.460 --> 00:22:11.839 how it was dealt with afterwards and that's particularly 00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:16.660 true for Vietnam veterans because many of us 00:22:16.660 --> 00:22:21.339 have been dealing with our PTSD for 40 years 00:22:21.339 --> 00:22:26.559 now and perhaps not under the care of a psychologist, 00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:30.619 a psychiatrist, or a physician. We're talking 00:22:30.619 --> 00:22:34.079 to Dr. Tom Berger, who is the National Committee 00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:37.599 Chair for PTSD for Vietnam Veterans of America, 00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:40.759 himself a combat veteran for Anabe -Maria Network. 00:22:41.700 --> 00:22:45.400 Doctor, what role does society have in the healing 00:22:45.400 --> 00:22:48.180 process of the people that they send off to war? 00:22:49.220 --> 00:22:55.769 Well, that's a loaded question, Gary. One important 00:22:55.769 --> 00:22:59.950 factor that our culture can offer us is support. 00:23:01.450 --> 00:23:06.029 The other element is training. And that is mental 00:23:06.029 --> 00:23:12.309 health preparation should be a part of a recruit 00:23:12.309 --> 00:23:17.269 training, procedures, you know, that sort of 00:23:17.269 --> 00:23:23.759 thing. And link that back with education. to 00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:26.920 our military families and spouses and all that 00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:30.720 sort of thing, as to mental health preparation. 00:23:33.099 --> 00:23:38.460 Does that... Well, it does, but going a little 00:23:38.460 --> 00:23:40.460 bit further with that, when the World War II 00:23:40.460 --> 00:23:43.740 vets came back, it was widely said that they 00:23:43.740 --> 00:23:45.779 came back, they went on with their lives, and 00:23:45.779 --> 00:23:50.000 they didn't have all these problems. may or may 00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:53.259 not be true, but the World War II vets came back, 00:23:53.539 --> 00:23:55.920 they were honored, there were the parades, there 00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:58.920 was television shows, there were movies, there 00:23:58.920 --> 00:24:01.200 were books written about what heroes they were, 00:24:01.740 --> 00:24:04.240 and the special treatment, go to the head of 00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:06.039 the line, let me buy you a drink, you get in 00:24:06.039 --> 00:24:09.740 free, and wear your uniform, we want to be proud 00:24:09.740 --> 00:24:12.420 of you. And then when the Vietnam vets came back, 00:24:12.500 --> 00:24:16.269 it was the opposite. And I maintain, and well, 00:24:16.349 --> 00:24:19.869 it's not my own idea, Dr. David Grossman wrote 00:24:19.869 --> 00:24:24.190 about it, in that society's reaction to the veterans 00:24:24.190 --> 00:24:27.769 coming back from war is critical in how well 00:24:27.769 --> 00:24:30.809 they heal. Actually, that's what I was referring 00:24:30.809 --> 00:24:34.390 to when I said support. World War II was a different 00:24:34.390 --> 00:24:38.849 type of war. And the public accepted the sacrifices. 00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:43.380 that it had to make as well as recognize the 00:24:43.380 --> 00:24:45.500 contributions of its sons and daughters that 00:24:45.500 --> 00:24:48.619 it sent over there. There's another factor, too, 00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:52.500 and that is, upon the conclusion of the war, 00:24:53.140 --> 00:24:56.940 troops came back en masse. I mean, they came 00:24:56.940 --> 00:25:01.279 back as units. Oftentimes on ships, or most of 00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:03.400 the time on ships, where they had a chance to 00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:05.720 sort of let off steam with one another, sort 00:25:05.720 --> 00:25:07.720 of the early wrap group kind of things, where 00:25:07.720 --> 00:25:10.059 you... uh... perhaps had an opportunity to talk 00:25:10.059 --> 00:25:13.059 about your experience or your experiences with 00:25:13.059 --> 00:25:18.079 your fellow troopers um... vietnam as you well 00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:20.079 -known was not the same way we could have been 00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:23.640 in in combat uh... one day and within thirty 00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:26.779 six hours we were back uh... in company you know 00:25:26.779 --> 00:25:31.059 in united states so that's another element that 00:25:31.059 --> 00:25:35.299 adds to it and of course the unpopularity of 00:25:35.299 --> 00:25:38.299 the Vietnam War in terms of the larger American 00:25:38.299 --> 00:25:40.980 culture certainly contributed. There were no 00:25:40.980 --> 00:25:45.099 welcome home parades. People, you know, were 00:25:45.099 --> 00:25:47.880 often treated chappily. In fact, you had to, 00:25:48.099 --> 00:25:50.980 you learned to keep quiet about it. My barber, 00:25:51.400 --> 00:25:54.039 I spoke to, I went to him for 10 years and we 00:25:54.039 --> 00:25:56.259 talked about everything under the sun we thought. 00:25:56.819 --> 00:25:59.700 And then he got interviewed about being a Vietnam 00:25:59.700 --> 00:26:02.599 veteran and I read about it in the paper. And 00:26:02.599 --> 00:26:05.140 when I went to see him I said, Bobby, you were 00:26:05.140 --> 00:26:07.819 in country? And he said, yeah. You mean you were? 00:26:08.440 --> 00:26:11.559 Ten years we talked about everything. Absolutely. 00:26:12.279 --> 00:26:15.259 Absolutely. And so we were conditioned to keep 00:26:15.259 --> 00:26:18.359 our mouths shut about it. It was one of our, 00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:23.900 and still is, one of our coping mechanisms to 00:26:23.900 --> 00:26:26.940 deal with the unpleasantness of our experiences. 00:26:27.819 --> 00:26:30.880 Well, we're talking to Dr. Tom Berger, Vietnam 00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:34.279 Veterans of America National Chair on PTSD. We're 00:26:34.279 --> 00:26:36.200 going to a break and when we come back, we're 00:26:36.200 --> 00:26:39.740 going to be joined by Marsha Four, an in -country 00:26:39.740 --> 00:26:42.599 Vietnam vet who deals with women's issues. The 00:26:42.599 --> 00:26:44.420 Medal of Honor is the highest award for valor 00:26:44.420 --> 00:26:46.380 in combat given a member of the Armed Forces 00:26:46.380 --> 00:26:48.559 of the United States. There have been over 3 00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:51.359 ,400 recipients of the nation's highest award. 00:26:52.039 --> 00:26:55.059 This is one of them. Army Specialist Alan Lynch 00:26:55.059 --> 00:26:57.400 saved three men in the face of hostile fire, 00:26:57.859 --> 00:27:00.140 then defended his position alone for more than 00:27:00.140 --> 00:27:04.900 two hours. Details after this. While serving 00:27:04.900 --> 00:27:07.519 in the forward element of an operation in Vietnam, 00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:10.720 Lynch's unit became heavily engaged with a numerically 00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:13.839 superior enemy force. Observing three wounded 00:27:13.839 --> 00:27:17.339 comrades lying exposed to enemy fire, Lynch dashed 00:27:17.339 --> 00:27:19.960 across 50 meters of open ground through a withering 00:27:19.960 --> 00:27:23.599 hail of enemy fire to administer aid. Reconnoitering 00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:25.980 a nearby trench for a covered position to protect 00:27:25.980 --> 00:27:28.900 the wounded from intense hostile fire, he killed 00:27:28.900 --> 00:27:31.799 two enemy soldiers at point -blank range. With 00:27:31.799 --> 00:27:34.799 the trench cleared, he unhesitatingly returned 00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:37.559 to the fire -swept area three times to carry 00:27:37.559 --> 00:27:40.339 the wounded men to safety. When his company was 00:27:40.339 --> 00:27:42.720 forced to withdraw by the superior firepower 00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:45.500 of the enemy, Lynch remained to aid his comrades 00:27:45.500 --> 00:27:48.319 at the risk of his life rather than abandon them. 00:27:48.670 --> 00:27:51.369 Alone, he defended his isolated position for 00:27:51.369 --> 00:27:54.650 two hours against the advancing enemy. Using 00:27:54.650 --> 00:27:57.289 only his rifle and a grenade, he stopped them 00:27:57.289 --> 00:28:00.309 just short of his trench, killing five. Again, 00:28:00.509 --> 00:28:02.690 disregarding his safety in the face of withering 00:28:02.690 --> 00:28:05.670 hostile fire, he crossed 70 meters of exposed 00:28:05.670 --> 00:28:08.549 terrain five times to carry his wounded comrades 00:28:08.549 --> 00:28:12.329 to a more secure area. Once he had assured their 00:28:12.329 --> 00:28:15.329 comfort and safety, Lynch located a counter -attacking 00:28:15.329 --> 00:28:17.650 and friendly company to assist in directing the 00:28:17.650 --> 00:28:20.799 attack. in evacuating the three casualties. The 00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:22.859 Medal of Honor series is a production of Veterans 00:28:22.859 --> 00:28:26.259 Radio. And welcome back to Veterans Radio. You're 00:28:26.259 --> 00:28:28.519 listening to it on the Ave Maria Network and 00:28:28.519 --> 00:28:31.019 we're eternally grateful to the Ave Maria Network 00:28:31.019 --> 00:28:33.539 for carrying us on three stations here in Ann 00:28:33.539 --> 00:28:36.680 Arbor and Saginaw, Michigan and Naples, Florida. 00:28:37.339 --> 00:28:42.400 Well, Immokalee actually. Immokalee. Immokalee. 00:28:42.460 --> 00:28:45.359 Yes, that's where the Ave Maria City is being 00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:48.119 built and where the studio will be. Okay. It's 00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:51.299 in the middle of the jungle. Trust me. It sounded 00:28:51.299 --> 00:28:53.960 Latin to me and I thought, holy cow. No, that's 00:28:53.960 --> 00:28:56.420 Indian. Immaculate. Oh, is it? Yes, very Indian. 00:28:56.559 --> 00:28:59.039 I was trying to go back to my old altar boy days 00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:01.440 when I could say all the prayers in Latin. Didn't 00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:04.859 know what they meant, but I could say them. Marsha 00:29:04.859 --> 00:29:08.220 Four. Ms. Four is a Vietnam in -country veteran. 00:29:08.660 --> 00:29:11.019 She served on active duty with the Army Nurse 00:29:11.019 --> 00:29:16.180 Corps from 1967 to 1970. Ms. Por is a life member 00:29:16.180 --> 00:29:18.480 of Vietnam Veterans of America where she serves 00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:20.960 on its National Board of Directors and I might 00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:23.920 add was the top vote getter among all of the 00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:26.460 candidates in a couple of elections in a row 00:29:26.460 --> 00:29:29.500 now. She is a member of several national committees 00:29:29.500 --> 00:29:33.099 and chairs its Women Veterans Committee. Currently 00:29:33.099 --> 00:29:35.539 she's the Director of Homeless Veterans Services 00:29:35.539 --> 00:29:38.200 for the Philadelphia Veterans Multiservice and 00:29:38.200 --> 00:29:41.930 Education Center. In Philadelphia she is responsible 00:29:41.930 --> 00:29:45.710 for a 95 bed homeless male veteran transitional 00:29:45.710 --> 00:29:50.309 residence, a 30 bed homeless women veteran transitional 00:29:50.309 --> 00:29:52.990 residence, a day service program for homeless 00:29:52.990 --> 00:29:56.549 veterans, and a HUD 30 unit shelter plus care 00:29:56.549 --> 00:29:59.569 program for homeless veterans. Ms. Foer has been 00:29:59.569 --> 00:30:02.690 actively involved in veterans issues on a local, 00:30:02.690 --> 00:30:05.630 regional, and national level for many years. 00:30:05.890 --> 00:30:08.390 She initiated and was the executive director 00:30:08.390 --> 00:30:11.690 of the Philadelphia Stand -Down from 1993 to 00:30:11.690 --> 00:30:15.930 1999 and still serves ex officio. She is also 00:30:15.930 --> 00:30:20.089 a member of VA VISN 4 Veterans Advisory Council. 00:30:20.710 --> 00:30:23.430 Ms. Four has served as a consultant to the Department 00:30:23.430 --> 00:30:26.049 of Veterans Affairs Advisory Committee on Homeless 00:30:26.049 --> 00:30:29.130 Veterans. She has served twice on the Secretary's 00:30:29.130 --> 00:30:31.890 Advisory Committee on Women Veterans. Marsha 00:30:31.890 --> 00:30:35.170 was appointed as its chair by Secretary Principi, 00:30:35.190 --> 00:30:38.349 serving from 2000 to 2004, and was reappointed 00:30:38.349 --> 00:30:42.089 until August of 2006. Marsha Fore, what credentials? 00:30:42.470 --> 00:30:45.190 Welcome to Veterans Radio. Thank you very much, 00:30:45.329 --> 00:30:49.470 Gary. What a lovely introduction. Well, you know 00:30:49.470 --> 00:30:52.170 what? I've been to every Vietnam Veterans of 00:30:52.170 --> 00:30:55.890 America National Convention since 1993. and I 00:30:55.890 --> 00:30:58.529 kept hearing the name of Marcia Ford, and then 00:30:58.529 --> 00:31:00.769 when we did the candidate interviews for board 00:31:00.769 --> 00:31:05.450 of directors, I could see the way you answered 00:31:05.450 --> 00:31:08.710 the questions and the things you talked about. 00:31:09.410 --> 00:31:13.329 I realized why you had such a high reputation, 00:31:13.450 --> 00:31:16.630 and I went to one of your meetings on one of 00:31:16.630 --> 00:31:20.240 the breakout sessions on homeless veterans. and 00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:22.420 you guys were talking so far over my head that 00:31:22.420 --> 00:31:25.819 I got up and went, I went to a POW and IA meeting. 00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:27.819 I didn't understand the thing you were talking 00:31:27.819 --> 00:31:31.859 about. Do you know, that's the one thing that 00:31:31.859 --> 00:31:34.400 I am so proud of, Vietnam Veterans of America, 00:31:34.700 --> 00:31:39.440 is the people there are so dedicated and so involved 00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:44.799 in veterans issues, and not just for the Vietnam 00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:48.240 veterans, but now really trying to take the young 00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:51.170 veterans under our wing. There is a passion about 00:31:51.170 --> 00:31:53.710 it. There is a passion about it. It's amazing. 00:31:54.869 --> 00:31:57.309 Marcia, what special issues do women veterans 00:31:57.309 --> 00:32:03.609 face? Oh. Well, we've only got 20 minutes. We 00:32:03.609 --> 00:32:08.109 have time for a full workshop, however. You know, 00:32:08.170 --> 00:32:12.789 I guess we could begin by the mere fact that 00:32:12.789 --> 00:32:18.119 their population inside the military is so outweighed 00:32:18.119 --> 00:32:22.920 by that of the men. And that sets up for many 00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:27.880 issues that they do face and the ability within 00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:30.240 that population to recognize what they need. 00:32:32.279 --> 00:32:36.619 So when we talk about, I mean, there's two sides 00:32:36.619 --> 00:32:39.099 of the fence. There's the Department of Defense 00:32:39.099 --> 00:32:41.319 issues and then there's Department of Veteran 00:32:41.319 --> 00:32:45.400 Affairs issues. And each has their own challenges 00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:49.089 within that system. There's certainly sexual 00:32:49.089 --> 00:32:52.230 trauma that takes place. We hear about it all 00:32:52.230 --> 00:32:55.710 the time, but how prevalent is the issue and 00:32:55.710 --> 00:33:01.509 how much more serious is the issue? Well, if 00:33:01.509 --> 00:33:04.150 we're talking about military sexual trauma, because 00:33:04.150 --> 00:33:06.710 many of the women that I work with, and I do 00:33:06.710 --> 00:33:09.990 work with a population who is quite troubled 00:33:09.990 --> 00:33:14.009 and have many issues and problems, but if we're 00:33:14.009 --> 00:33:17.940 talking about military sexual trauma, It's, in 00:33:17.940 --> 00:33:22.700 fact, probably very under -reported. You know, 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:24.960 I look and have a lot of conversation with the 00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:27.240 Miles Foundation, which is a non -profit agency 00:33:27.240 --> 00:33:31.960 that helps victims of military and domestic violence, 00:33:32.299 --> 00:33:35.240 sexual trauma. You know, the Department of Defense 00:33:35.240 --> 00:33:37.700 reports one set of numbers, and just as a for 00:33:37.700 --> 00:33:40.440 -instance, between August of 2002 and October 00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:43.519 of 2004. The Department of Defense said that 00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:46.940 there were 118 cases of sexual assault reported 00:33:46.940 --> 00:33:51.160 in Iraq, Kuwait, and Afghanistan. But the Miles 00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:53.859 Foundation went back and looked at some of the 00:33:53.859 --> 00:33:56.059 records that they have and the reports that they 00:33:56.059 --> 00:33:59.200 had and the people that contacted them. In that 00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:03.240 same time period, that number was double, over 00:34:03.240 --> 00:34:07.880 double, 258. When we look at national statistics, 00:34:08.079 --> 00:34:11.369 and I think it's a matter of record, that in 00:34:11.369 --> 00:34:15.010 fact, cases of reported rape come in at about 00:34:15.010 --> 00:34:19.389 30%. So if only 30 % of the cases are reported, 00:34:20.630 --> 00:34:22.929 and we look at the numbers that have a discrepancy 00:34:22.929 --> 00:34:25.090 between DOD and some of the reports the Miles 00:34:25.090 --> 00:34:27.909 Foundation comes out with, and then we look at 00:34:27.909 --> 00:34:36.590 the burden within the military and DOD on what 00:34:36.590 --> 00:34:39.909 consequences will I have if I do report this? 00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:46.639 Will I lose rank? Will I be moved out? Will I 00:34:46.639 --> 00:34:51.239 be discharged? What retribution will I face? 00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:53.619 Is this my commanding officer that I'm having 00:34:53.619 --> 00:34:58.380 a problem with? There's so much of that, and 00:34:58.380 --> 00:35:01.239 then overlay the burden of the fact that women 00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:04.900 in the military, the numbers are growing. They're 00:35:04.900 --> 00:35:08.300 growing greatly, actually. Well, we can talk 00:35:08.300 --> 00:35:11.090 about some numbers in a few minutes. when you 00:35:11.090 --> 00:35:17.510 look at How many women are in fact in that position 00:35:17.510 --> 00:35:22.369 It's difficult to I guess probably even comprehend 00:35:22.369 --> 00:35:27.090 how many are actually going unreported There's 00:35:27.090 --> 00:35:33.329 a I was talking to the wife of a Army officer 00:35:33.329 --> 00:35:38.719 who was training Iraq officers and And the day 00:35:38.719 --> 00:35:41.599 before he was supposed to come back, none of 00:35:41.599 --> 00:35:44.360 them showed up. They did a search. They found 00:35:44.360 --> 00:35:48.780 them horribly tortured, all of them dead. And 00:35:48.780 --> 00:35:51.219 then he had to get on a plane and come back. 00:35:51.219 --> 00:35:53.639 And that was one of the last visions that he 00:35:53.639 --> 00:35:57.860 had in Iraq of these 13 Iraqi people that he'd 00:35:57.860 --> 00:36:01.199 been training. The wife said that he was having 00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:04.199 an awful time dealing with it. But he was afraid 00:36:04.199 --> 00:36:09.989 to go. to anybody in the Army for counseling 00:36:09.989 --> 00:36:12.090 because he was afraid it would go on his permanent 00:36:12.090 --> 00:36:14.889 record and he wouldn't be able to be promoted. 00:36:15.710 --> 00:36:17.530 Is that the same thing that women are facing? 00:36:18.769 --> 00:36:21.969 Absolutely. Absolutely. And we've even bumped 00:36:21.969 --> 00:36:24.170 into a few instances and I've had some personal 00:36:24.170 --> 00:36:28.369 conversations with veterans, in particular the 00:36:28.369 --> 00:36:31.489 two I was, several I've been talking to. They 00:36:31.489 --> 00:36:34.570 were male veterans. They were actually bumped 00:36:34.570 --> 00:36:39.170 down to private from their rank of like E4, E5 00:36:39.170 --> 00:36:43.269 before they were discharged out. I'm going to 00:36:43.269 --> 00:36:46.849 ask a question that I may regret. What about 00:36:46.849 --> 00:36:49.510 psychology? I did a Google search yesterday on 00:36:49.510 --> 00:36:52.769 women's psychology and PTSD and was surprised 00:36:52.769 --> 00:36:57.630 that there were loads of pages came up. Newt 00:36:57.630 --> 00:36:59.710 Gingrich caught a lot of flack when he broached 00:36:59.710 --> 00:37:02.829 that subject. Was he right or wrong? or sort 00:37:02.829 --> 00:37:04.769 of right or sort of wrong? I think you'd have 00:37:04.769 --> 00:37:07.010 to, I'm not really quite sure what you're asking 00:37:07.010 --> 00:37:14.250 me. Well, the idea that men and women are different 00:37:14.250 --> 00:37:18.329 physically and perhaps emotionally, is it an 00:37:18.329 --> 00:37:21.869 extra burden on women being in the military? 00:37:23.050 --> 00:37:25.130 Actually, I think there have been, and you can, 00:37:25.590 --> 00:37:28.050 if Dr. Berger's on the phone, he can correct 00:37:28.050 --> 00:37:30.389 me if I'm wrong, but there have been studies 00:37:30.990 --> 00:37:33.429 That have proven that women are quite capable 00:37:33.429 --> 00:37:39.550 and are able to perform To the level they've 00:37:39.550 --> 00:37:43.349 been required to do without without burden Are 00:37:43.349 --> 00:37:45.650 there differences between men and women? Well, 00:37:45.670 --> 00:37:50.369 yeah there are Otherwise we'd all be men or we'd 00:37:50.369 --> 00:37:52.590 all be women and right right and we wouldn't 00:37:52.590 --> 00:37:57.409 want that But Gary this is this is Tom Berger 00:37:57.409 --> 00:38:00.250 and You're going to interrupt Marsha here for 00:38:00.250 --> 00:38:05.829 a minute. There is no doubt that when it comes 00:38:05.829 --> 00:38:10.409 to performance in the military, that women are 00:38:10.409 --> 00:38:14.829 just as good as men. There are too many studies 00:38:14.829 --> 00:38:17.989 to indicate that that isn't the case, so I don't 00:38:17.989 --> 00:38:21.750 know where Mr. Gitrich was coming from when he 00:38:21.750 --> 00:38:24.789 made that statement, but that is absolutely not 00:38:24.789 --> 00:38:27.739 true. Thank you, because I did remember reading 00:38:27.739 --> 00:38:31.519 actually not too long ago a study that did indicate 00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:36.500 that very idea. I've heard his comments discussed 00:38:36.500 --> 00:38:38.900 in the past and it was one that I wanted to get 00:38:38.900 --> 00:38:40.920 out on the air and out to the general public 00:38:40.920 --> 00:38:42.760 and again, you know, it's one of those things 00:38:42.760 --> 00:38:45.820 that you hold your breath when you ask the question. 00:38:46.380 --> 00:38:48.659 Well, I think it was one of the common arguments 00:38:48.659 --> 00:38:53.320 to keep women out of certain job descriptions 00:38:53.320 --> 00:38:56.130 in the military. was one of the basic arguments 00:38:56.130 --> 00:39:01.730 from time ago. We're talking to Dr. Tom Berger 00:39:01.730 --> 00:39:05.409 and Marcia Four, both members very active in 00:39:05.409 --> 00:39:09.510 PTSD with Vietnam Veterans of America and elsewhere. 00:39:09.690 --> 00:39:12.110 You're on the, with Veterans Radio on the Ave 00:39:12.110 --> 00:39:15.070 Maria Network. We'll be right back after these 00:39:15.070 --> 00:39:19.190 messages. And you're back on Veterans Radio on 00:39:19.190 --> 00:39:22.469 the Ave Maria Radio coming to you from Ann Arbor. 00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:27.280 and also Saginaw, Naples, Florida. We're with 00:39:27.280 --> 00:39:29.539 Marcia Four, who's talking about the special 00:39:29.539 --> 00:39:32.380 issues that women face when it comes to PTSD, 00:39:32.980 --> 00:39:36.099 as it results to military service, and Dr. Tom 00:39:36.099 --> 00:39:39.500 Berger, who's the national chair of PTSD for 00:39:39.500 --> 00:39:42.619 Vietnam Veterans of America. Marcia, we were 00:39:42.619 --> 00:39:48.139 talking on the capabilities of women, and I just, 00:39:48.139 --> 00:39:51.789 I appreciate that, and I... I thought it was 00:39:51.789 --> 00:39:54.230 something that we ought to discuss a little bit 00:39:54.230 --> 00:39:59.550 more, is what about the special, men have the 00:39:59.550 --> 00:40:03.949 issues of PTSD stress, keeping it inside, they've 00:40:03.949 --> 00:40:07.289 always been talked, don't be a baby, don't, you 00:40:07.289 --> 00:40:11.010 know, and women are talked, to talk about it. 00:40:11.389 --> 00:40:16.090 What, is there anything that, is it of note there, 00:40:16.170 --> 00:40:22.119 and how do you deal with it? Oftentimes women 00:40:22.119 --> 00:40:30.980 are more verbal. They develop close relationships 00:40:30.980 --> 00:40:34.940 with other women and are more open sometimes 00:40:34.940 --> 00:40:43.960 to talking to other women. I think that in many 00:40:43.960 --> 00:40:47.900 situations that's in fact what's important in 00:40:47.900 --> 00:40:53.099 some regard to the clinical therapeutic environment 00:40:53.099 --> 00:40:57.219 that women will find in the medical and mental 00:40:57.219 --> 00:41:00.340 health arena, we'll talk about the VA for instance, 00:41:01.079 --> 00:41:04.119 and women's comfort level in talking with other 00:41:04.119 --> 00:41:08.880 women, and the need for female clinical providers. 00:41:11.239 --> 00:41:16.380 The number, incredibly, women actually are in 00:41:16.380 --> 00:41:19.989 fact the largest growing population inside the 00:41:19.989 --> 00:41:24.690 VA system. And those numbers have increased dramatically. 00:41:25.210 --> 00:41:27.489 Even over the last year or so, it's gone up by 00:41:27.489 --> 00:41:35.289 a percentage point. In FY03, the female veteran 00:41:35.289 --> 00:41:40.909 patients have risen from about 5 .5%. And in 00:41:40.909 --> 00:41:43.170 like less than a year and a half or so, two years, 00:41:43.250 --> 00:41:47.050 it's up to almost 8%. It's expected to rise yet 00:41:47.050 --> 00:41:51.800 again. And that will in fact be very affected 00:41:51.800 --> 00:41:55.739 by the fact that today with 15 % of the active 00:41:55.739 --> 00:41:59.400 force, 17 % of the Guard and Reserve, we're looking 00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:03.059 at actually 20 % of all the new military recruits 00:42:03.059 --> 00:42:06.380 are female. So the numbers will be rising and 00:42:06.380 --> 00:42:08.739 the need will be dramatically increased within 00:42:08.739 --> 00:42:11.280 the VA to be able to help provide services to 00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:14.809 the women that are coming. And, Gary, this is 00:42:14.809 --> 00:42:17.230 Tom Berger again. I might add Marcia hit on a 00:42:17.230 --> 00:42:19.630 very important element when she talked or hinted 00:42:19.630 --> 00:42:25.150 at the therapeutic elements. Amongst the most 00:42:25.150 --> 00:42:29.530 effective treatments for PTSD, those treatments 00:42:29.530 --> 00:42:33.929 that involve sharing of feelings and that sort 00:42:33.929 --> 00:42:37.050 of thing are much more effective for women than 00:42:37.050 --> 00:42:39.309 they are for men because men don't want to talk 00:42:39.309 --> 00:42:42.630 about their feelings. I've got a friend that's 00:42:42.630 --> 00:42:44.989 going through one of the rap sessions down in 00:42:44.989 --> 00:42:48.409 Tennessee right now, and he's talked about that, 00:42:48.449 --> 00:42:55.050 as a matter of fact. I've also learned that Vietnam 00:42:55.050 --> 00:42:59.070 veterans is what I relate to the most, but people 00:42:59.070 --> 00:43:01.530 come back from the war. They've come back from 00:43:01.530 --> 00:43:04.530 very traumatic experiences. They get married, 00:43:04.590 --> 00:43:07.380 they get a new job, they raise a family. They 00:43:07.380 --> 00:43:10.539 become workaholics, they stay very active in 00:43:10.539 --> 00:43:12.940 their job, and then they retire, and then they 00:43:12.940 --> 00:43:16.320 have time to think. And that is when some of 00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:22.260 the worst, the onslaught of PTSD comes on. Do 00:43:22.260 --> 00:43:26.679 we really know, because of the newness of women 00:43:26.679 --> 00:43:29.219 being in military situations, what's going to 00:43:29.219 --> 00:43:35.820 happen down the road? Marsha. I don't think we... 00:43:35.849 --> 00:43:37.989 can possibly know what's coming down the road. 00:43:38.190 --> 00:43:42.510 We can only anticipate a need based on past experience 00:43:42.510 --> 00:43:50.849 and what we're seeing in the war setting, in 00:43:50.849 --> 00:43:53.630 the placement of women in that war setting, which 00:43:53.630 --> 00:43:56.010 is much different today than it was in the past. 00:43:56.590 --> 00:43:59.710 And as was, I think, hinted at earlier, the multiple 00:43:59.710 --> 00:44:07.460 deployments. War is war is war. The streets can 00:44:07.460 --> 00:44:10.619 look different. The uniform has changed. But, 00:44:10.619 --> 00:44:14.420 you know, I go back and I just reiterate the 00:44:14.420 --> 00:44:19.420 fact that the stress level of being in a war 00:44:19.420 --> 00:44:26.579 situation, the smell of war, the smell of death... 00:44:26.579 --> 00:44:30.219 Movies will never get that. That is universal. 00:44:30.599 --> 00:44:32.619 And that is the one thing that we as Vietnam 00:44:32.619 --> 00:44:36.820 veterans... share with the veterans of today. 00:44:37.699 --> 00:44:40.000 The situation that's different, of course, is 00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:42.519 the number of women who are serving and where 00:44:42.519 --> 00:44:45.440 they are being placed in that service arena. 00:44:46.139 --> 00:44:49.739 And they come back with responsibilities that 00:44:49.739 --> 00:44:52.500 many of the women of the past did not have because, 00:44:52.619 --> 00:44:54.980 in fact, so many of them are from garden reserves. 00:44:55.940 --> 00:44:59.000 They have established families. They have children 00:44:59.000 --> 00:45:03.250 that they are responsible for. And as you know, 00:45:03.349 --> 00:45:05.690 there's a difficult period where you have to 00:45:05.690 --> 00:45:08.690 fit back in to a place that's, and I put this 00:45:08.690 --> 00:45:16.750 in quotes, normal, coming from a place that is 00:45:16.750 --> 00:45:20.750 not normal. And the routines of the day seem 00:45:20.750 --> 00:45:24.670 and can seem so mundane. It's like go back to 00:45:24.670 --> 00:45:27.849 some of the feelings that we have had, like how 00:45:27.849 --> 00:45:30.329 can you live this way when you know what's happening? 00:45:30.730 --> 00:45:35.409 over there. Isn't that the truth? I'd add one 00:45:35.409 --> 00:45:38.969 element to that, Gary, and on top of all that 00:45:38.969 --> 00:45:45.670 is the fact that the VA healthcare system is 00:45:45.670 --> 00:45:50.630 not prepared to deal with it. For example, just 00:45:50.630 --> 00:45:54.570 this past week I had the good fortune to speak 00:45:54.570 --> 00:45:57.670 with one of our current women veterans who was 00:45:57.670 --> 00:46:01.679 actually one of the POWs, along with Lori Piestewa 00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:06.099 and Jessica Lynch. And one of the comments that 00:46:06.099 --> 00:46:09.780 she made was that she does not, where she lives 00:46:09.780 --> 00:46:16.159 in the country, there isn't someone who can treat 00:46:16.159 --> 00:46:20.260 her illnesses, including her mental health issues. 00:46:20.420 --> 00:46:23.260 She's the only woman who comes to this particular 00:46:23.260 --> 00:46:26.920 VA facilities. so she does not go there for certain 00:46:26.920 --> 00:46:29.760 issues because here are all these guys sitting 00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:34.880 around okay they know why she's there uh... and 00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:39.559 so this is an added uh... element that she has 00:46:39.559 --> 00:46:44.440 to deal with mentally uh... so we can't overlook 00:46:44.440 --> 00:46:46.900 the fact that the system is not prepared to deal 00:46:46.900 --> 00:46:49.460 with women's health period what do they need 00:46:49.460 --> 00:46:53.460 to do martin looking at it I mean, we're really 00:46:53.460 --> 00:46:55.739 concerned about the capacity, the ability and 00:46:55.739 --> 00:46:59.440 the capacity to utilize the Vet Centers, which 00:46:59.440 --> 00:47:02.739 were the readjustment services that Vietnam Veterans 00:47:02.739 --> 00:47:05.059 utilized to a great extent. That's why they were 00:47:05.059 --> 00:47:09.820 established. What will their capacity be to provide 00:47:09.820 --> 00:47:15.820 combat -related PTSD in a gender -specific setting 00:47:15.820 --> 00:47:23.599 with a woman clinician? we worry about that capacity. 00:47:25.199 --> 00:47:29.579 And I guess that kind of goes back to the question 00:47:29.579 --> 00:47:34.500 that I had earlier about women having very specific 00:47:34.500 --> 00:47:39.300 needs when it comes to treatment of PTSD. Do 00:47:39.300 --> 00:47:43.320 we fully understand them at this point? Do we 00:47:43.320 --> 00:47:45.480 fully understand the needs of a woman versus 00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:47.739 a man? I mean, you get a psychologist that's 00:47:47.739 --> 00:47:50.559 been treating men for PTSD for a lot of years. 00:47:50.909 --> 00:47:56.510 Is that person prepared to treat women or is 00:47:56.510 --> 00:47:59.889 it all the same? Gary, let me jump in on that 00:47:59.889 --> 00:48:04.809 answer. We are very fortunate at this point in 00:48:04.809 --> 00:48:09.710 time to have some very, very qualified women 00:48:09.710 --> 00:48:14.429 researchers who have taken their research with 00:48:14.429 --> 00:48:17.309 domestic violence and sexual trauma in the civilian 00:48:17.309 --> 00:48:22.070 sector and have moved over into the VA system, 00:48:22.130 --> 00:48:25.090 okay, for whatever reasons, and are beginning 00:48:25.090 --> 00:48:28.989 to develop ways to work with our women veterans. 00:48:29.050 --> 00:48:33.289 That's a very, very positive sign, okay. I think 00:48:33.289 --> 00:48:37.510 it does show that there is a need for the gender 00:48:37.510 --> 00:48:42.429 -specific treatment programs that Marcia spoke 00:48:42.429 --> 00:48:45.989 of. But I want to go back a little bit a step 00:48:45.989 --> 00:48:50.599 and talk about DOD. I think DOD has a responsibility, 00:48:51.039 --> 00:48:54.000 too. Now, the reason I say that is I don't know 00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:56.599 how many people know this, but there's only two 00:48:56.599 --> 00:49:02.880 localities for women's health in Iraq. If you 00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:07.699 have a serious problem, all right, the main facility 00:49:07.699 --> 00:49:13.679 is in Baghdad, and it is a six -hour ride by 00:49:13.679 --> 00:49:20.059 convoy or a helicopter ride. Okay. For women's 00:49:20.059 --> 00:49:24.300 specific health issues, DOD could be doing more 00:49:24.300 --> 00:49:29.460 in the field in terms of prevention and limited 00:49:29.460 --> 00:49:32.000 treatment because there are what I call PTSD 00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:36.940 SWAT teams in the field out there in Iraq. So 00:49:36.940 --> 00:49:40.059 DOD has a responsibility in this as well. And 00:49:40.059 --> 00:49:43.059 I think, you know, when you combine it with what 00:49:43.059 --> 00:49:47.030 we've said about the VA the challenges that the 00:49:47.030 --> 00:49:49.750 VA faces. We've got a really serious problem 00:49:49.750 --> 00:49:55.210 here. I want to tell my own little personal story, 00:49:55.269 --> 00:49:57.570 an event that happened to me because we talked 00:49:57.570 --> 00:50:00.789 about combat veterans. I was a CB. It took place 00:50:00.789 --> 00:50:02.630 around us. We were in a lot of denial. We would 00:50:02.630 --> 00:50:04.469 laugh about it. They're not going to bother us. 00:50:05.090 --> 00:50:07.489 They know that we might get replaced by somebody 00:50:07.489 --> 00:50:10.949 competent and that type of stuff. Now, 25 years 00:50:10.949 --> 00:50:14.280 later, I'm in business. I was in a store. wearing 00:50:14.280 --> 00:50:16.239 a suit and top coat in the middle of the winter 00:50:16.239 --> 00:50:19.199 I was mulling over a business problem and in 00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:23.219 the background a customer asked a stock boy about 00:50:23.219 --> 00:50:25.239 something and he said well we've got a lot of 00:50:25.239 --> 00:50:28.219 incoming inventory at the word incoming I was 00:50:28.219 --> 00:50:32.260 diving for the floor 25 years later and I cut 00:50:32.260 --> 00:50:35.420 myself without hitting the floor and everybody 00:50:35.420 --> 00:50:37.579 gave me a look and I gave the floor a dirty look 00:50:37.579 --> 00:50:40.219 and but I was shaking physically because I thought 00:50:40.219 --> 00:50:44.000 where did that come from what about the So I 00:50:44.000 --> 00:50:46.880 was not a combat veteran. We didn't get shot 00:50:46.880 --> 00:50:49.159 at a lot. We only got shot at a couple of times. 00:50:49.619 --> 00:50:52.380 Where does it come from? How can it be so bottled 00:50:52.380 --> 00:50:54.579 up? We've got about a minute, a little over a 00:50:54.579 --> 00:50:56.320 minute and a half. Would either of you like to 00:50:56.320 --> 00:50:59.619 tackle that? That's the way we cope with it, 00:50:59.719 --> 00:51:04.019 Gary. How we bottle it up. I'll go back. You 00:51:04.019 --> 00:51:06.679 know, for so long walls are built up. We contain 00:51:06.679 --> 00:51:09.960 it. We work. We move on. You know, we get involved. 00:51:10.019 --> 00:51:13.170 We have developed a support system. You know, 00:51:13.409 --> 00:51:15.869 and then things start crashing down. You had 00:51:15.869 --> 00:51:18.510 your Persian Gulf. Things start whittling. Now 00:51:18.510 --> 00:51:21.309 we have this, you know, this conflict going on 00:51:21.309 --> 00:51:25.489 and it starts whittling away at the walls we 00:51:25.489 --> 00:51:28.630 have set up and bringing us back to that place 00:51:28.630 --> 00:51:31.789 where we were because war never leaves you. It 00:51:31.789 --> 00:51:34.730 is part of who you are and how you got to where 00:51:34.730 --> 00:51:38.610 you are. So the big thing is to talk about it, 00:51:38.610 --> 00:51:40.309 communicate. We're told, you know, why can't 00:51:40.309 --> 00:51:43.989 you leave it behind? And, but that's exactly 00:51:43.989 --> 00:51:46.630 the wrong thing to do. You can't. Gary, if I 00:51:46.630 --> 00:51:52.090 can say one more thing. About 15 seconds. Okay. 00:51:52.510 --> 00:51:55.809 PTSD is not a death sentence. You can recover 00:51:55.809 --> 00:52:00.449 from PTSD, but you need intervention. And please 00:52:00.449 --> 00:52:03.809 seek intervention if you feel that you have any 00:52:03.809 --> 00:52:06.489 of the symptoms associated with PTSD. Thank you 00:52:06.489 --> 00:52:09.789 very much. Dr. Tom Berger, National Chair of 00:52:09.789 --> 00:52:13.519 PTSD. Committee for Vietnam Veterans of America 00:52:13.519 --> 00:52:17.840 Marsha for I can't put a label on you you do 00:52:17.840 --> 00:52:23.920 so much for veterans Thank you so much for being 00:52:23.920 --> 00:52:27.719 with us next week Eisenhower Bob Gould and Dale 00:52:27.719 --> 00:52:32.019 Thornberry Eisenhower tune in if you if you like 00:52:32.019 --> 00:52:34.380 the man if you want to learn more about them 00:52:34.380 --> 00:52:36.480 This is Veterans Radio out