From the studios of Ave Maria Radio in Ann Arbor,
this is Veterans Radio. And now, here's your
host, Gary Lilley. And good morning out there.
This is Gary Lilley, former CB, sitting here
in the studios of the Ave Maria Network in Ann
Arbor, along with Bob Gould. Hoo -ah. Hoo -ah.
Hoo -ah. Old 101st medic. 101st. Ken Rogge back
there on the board. Ken was with Armed Forces
radio for all these years, so he really knows
what he's doing Today's show is going to be on
PTSD never met anybody with it, but I keep reading
about it Being a little bit of a smart aleck
there it affects quite a few Indeed it does right
if you look at what? How that manifests itself,
and you'll start to recognize that and other
people Well, the truth of the matter is I've
got some friends that have severe cases of PTSD.
A good friend of mine, his hands shake constantly
and he was talking one day about how good he
feels now that he's on some new medications and
I was looking at his hands and he could hardly
drink coffee. He was a sniper, a marine sniper.
Good dear friend of mine. But we've got a few
welcome homes. No, first we've got a news item
that Ken wants to read. The United States Air
Force will host several events in conjunction
with the Doolittle Tokyo Raider's 65th annual
reunion in San Antonio, Texas this week. The
raid, which was ordered by President Franklin
Roosevelt as America's response to the surprise
attack on Pearl Harbor, remains one of the most
daring combat missions in American history. On
April 18, 1942, famed aviation pioneer Lieutenant
Colonel Jimmy Doolittle and 79 other volunteers
launched 16 B -25 Mitchell bombers from the deck
of the USS Hornet. It was a bold and audacious
mission and gave America a much needed boost
in morale in the early days of World War II.
Doolittle, who was already famous for setting
aviation speed and endurance records throughout
the 1920s and 1930s, became a national hero.
and went on to command the 8th Air Force in Europe
at the close of World War II. He died in 1993
and remains the only person to have ever held
both of America's highest military and civilian
awards, the Medal of Honor and the Medal of Freedom.
Of the 79 men who took off with Doolittle that
day, three were killed during the mission, five
were interred in Russia, and eight became prisoners
of war in Japan. Of those POWs, three were executed
by firing squad and another died in captivity.
Thirteen others would die later in the war and
there are fourteen Raiders alive today. The reunions
which began as a birthday party for Doolittle,
hosted in 1947, had evolved into an annual gathering
of one of the most elite military fraternities
in the world. At every reunion, surviving raiders
meet privately to conduct a solemn goblet ceremony.
After a roll call and a toast to the raiders
who have died since their last meeting, the remaining
raiders turn the deceased men's goblets upside
down. When only two raiders remain, they will
open a bottle of brandy from 1896, the year of
Doolittle's birth, and toast their fallen comrades.
The 80 goblets, which are normally on display
at the National Museum of the United States Air
Force, will be brought to San Antonio by United
States Air Force Academy cadets. And this year's
goblet ceremony will be on Wednesday. The Raiders
will arrive at Randolph Air Force Base on Tuesday.
There will be a fly -in of vintage B -25s. That's
interesting. And they will... feature a flyover,
and they're going to attend the graduation of
basic military training cadets. And the Raiders
this year, scheduled to attend, there's just
a few of them. Colonel Bauer, Lieutenant Colonel
Cole, a Major Griffin, Lieutenant Colonel Hite,
Master Sergeant Horton, Major General David Jones,
and Staff Sergeant David Thatcher. And I just
think it's phenomenal that these men are still
around. and still being remembered. There Ken,
and did you know that General Doolittle had a
PhD in aeronautics? Yes I did, yes I did. Incredibly
intelligent person. Another news item is that
the Army is going to be fielding their improved
body armor. It's continuing to upgrade the body
armor to increase the protection from bullets
and fragments and the new improved outer tactical
vest to soldiers. improved outer tactical vest.
It's being deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan.
They're saying that the IOTV is more than three
pounds lighter than the current OTV, but provides
an equal level of protection over an increased
area. That was Brigadier General Mark Brown.
And I saw something on television about it. They
have an armor called... dragon skin or something
of that nature. It's a ceramic, ceramic disc
that looked like silver dollars that are overlaid
and looked like dragon skin. I saw a demonstration
of it where the man stood about 40 feet away
with the AK -47 firing into it and it didn't
penetrate it. That's an awesome, you know, because
the old stuff would stop fragments, but it wouldn't
stop bullets. How do they keep that stuff out
of the public, though? Well, you know, the interesting
thing was they showed it being assembled, but
they said that the formula for the ceramic was
highly secret, and they were afraid, you know,
but I was kind of surprised to see them showing
the manufacture right there. How soon will it
be on eBay? Let's hope it never gets on eBay.
Oh, absolutely, no. But once that's loose on
the public, it's loose. that's in the community.
You're touching on a really interesting point,
Bob. What we're doing with our military research
is that we are jobbing it out, and in a lot of
cases, then it's being subcontracted to places
in China that has our top secret formulas or
top secret technology, and we're saying, please
make this product for us. Sending it to places
like China because it's cheaper. Can you imagine
that? Not long ago, they got the contract to
build our night vision goggles. Now up to now,
we've been the only person that had them. So
hey, China, here's how you do it. Make them for
us. It sounds like the barn door's open now.
There's some real problems going on with our
technology. It's being jobbed out to places like
the universities. who are then turning it over
to rogue nations. I think we're going to have
a future show on that with what's happening with
our military technology and how we're giving
it away. And what we can do about it. And what
can be done about it. And we're coming up on
the Welcome Home and Bob Gold, you've got some
troops to welcome home. Well each week on Veterans
Radio we like to welcome home servicemen and
women who have been... Stationed around the world
in the service of their country. We'll start
with tonight The second battalion Irish Regiment
of Canada is inviting the public to welcome home
six soldiers from Sudbury, Canada And that will
be today April the 14th in 2007 Sudbury. That's
where the hockey player I was going to say, yes,
Hockey Town, that would be a little north of
Windsor. 99, what was 99? Gretzky, there we go.
Okay. Okay, well we also like to welcome home
the 2nd Battalion Irish Regiment. Soldiers from
the 3rd Battalion, 4th Air Defense Artillery
Regiment, and the 27th Engineer Battalion, they
received a welcome home celebration at Fort Bragg,
North Carolina. A welcome home ceremony was also
held for the soldiers of the Marine Army National
Guard 240th Engineers Group, and they are stationed
at the Augusta State Armory in Augusta, Maine.
Andrew canard he was reunited Reunited with this
platoon of the second marine division second
light armored reconnaissance battalion in Camp
Lejeune California second lieutenant canard lost
both of his legs from a roadside bomb in October
the It's amazing the technology. I was at Chicago
for the a marathon last year Right north of there
is the Great Lakes Hospital. Right. And I was
stunned at the number of young people that were
entering this marathon. It was a triathlon, actually.
No legs, one leg, arms missing. And I couldn't
figure it out until I realized that the hospital
was just north of there. God bless them. Also,
troops from the Ohio National Guard, 174th Air
Defense Artillery B Battery, they were honored
in a welcome home ceremony in Sharonville. Ohio.
A ceremony was also held in Alaska, Onalaska,
Wisconsin to honor members of the 458th Ordnance
Service Company. That's a Onalaska -based Army
Reserves unit. A welcome home parade was held
for Welsh Guardsmen at Wellington Barracks in
London, England. And last, soldiers from the
244th Army liaison team were honored in a welcome
home ceremony at Chicago's Northwest Side Welcome
home to all of you. God bless And we're back
on veterans radio and we're going to be talking
about PTSD today. Our first guest is Dr. Tom
Berger who's a life member of Vietnam Veterans
of America and national chair of the PTSD committee.
Dr. Berger was a Navy corpsman with the 3rd Marine
Division. That means he got into a little bit
of problems up there, I'd say. He was wounded
twice. He served from October 1966 to May 1968,
which means he was there for Tet. Dr. Berger,
welcome to Veterans Radio. Well, it's great to
be here. Thanks, Gary, for inviting me. Absolutely.
PTSD is a severe problem for troops that have
served, and I'd like you to tell our audience
exactly what is PTSD, if there's a definition
for it. Well, obviously, it's a post -traumatic
stress disorder. There's a long and varied history.
Most of the time, in a brief fashion, it goes
back was identified initially in the Civil War
as Soldier's Heart, shell shock in World War
I, on through until Vietnam when we initially
began to call it post -Vietnam syndrome, then
largely through the efforts of Vietnam veterans.
It was included in the DSM -IV or at that time
DSM -III manual. in the late 70s, early 80s,
and it is a recognizable disease now that affects
your mind and body on occasion, because there
is a link. Indeed, there is a link between stress
and physical condition. Are people sick more
often when they have high stress? Absolutely.
All the evidence points to that. In fact, some
of the seminal cases to prove that link have
been done by a vietnam that uh... doctor joseph
boscarino from uh... new york uh... who served
with the artillery army artillery units over
there uh... but it's clear that that there is
a link because obviously when you're stressed
uh... and has an impact on your immune system
immune defenses of your body or lowered and so
you're much more susceptible to other kinds of
of illnesses I had five uncles in World War II,
and some of them suffered badly from PTSD, whatever
it was called in those days. And grandfather
of mine was in World War I with the Royal Seaforth
Highlanders. My grandmother said up until the
day he died when he was 72 years old that he
would have nightmares at night. The same thing
in my family. Both my parents were veterans.
My father was a Pacific Marine who was wounded
at Tarawa. My mother was a Navy nurse at San
Diego. In fact, that's the reason I'm here, because
I met. But in any case, while my dad never specifically
mentioned it as a form of illness, it's clear
that there were discussions amongst him and his
friends were similar to those kinds of conversations
between Vietnam veterans and the new vets that
indicated that he had PTSD. But it was my grandmother
who actually told me stories about his nightmares
and her having to intervene on several occasions
because he became violent. Is it only combat
veterans quote unquote that come down with PTSD?
No, no. I mean PTSD can be caused by a number
of things, including combat exposure, serious
accident or a natural disaster such as 9 -1 -1,
rape or criminal assault, child sexual or physical
abuse or severe neglect, hostage situations of
POWs, displacement, refugee displacement, for
example, in wartime. witnessing a traumatic event.
And of course, the sudden unexpected death of
a loved one. All of those things can have an
impact in person and can cause PTSD. I have a
question, Dr. Berger. This is Bob Gould. Welcome.
Welcome. How is this recognized? How do I want
to formulate this question? Is it? Is it now
official? Has it been recognized, let's say,
by the AMA or the psychiatric association? Is
it something that you can actually can point
to? And it does have a list of things that manifest
themselves with you that is recognized. In other
words, is there a way to give a diagnosis? Is
there a template? Absolutely. There are a number
of diagnostic, valid diagnostic tests that can
be performed to indicate not only the presence
of PTSD but its severity. And it's well recognized
amongst both the medical community and the mental
health community. I would add one thing. As the
current war drags on, we're learning that there
are a number of other related kinds of combat
injuries, traumatic brain injury, for example,
where some of the same symptoms of PTSD occur,
but they do not necessarily indicate PTSD. So
what I'm saying here is that The use of these
valid diagnostic assessment tools are very important
in determining not only whether PTSD exists or
not, but the severity of it. Has that been accepted
across the board in the medical community? Pretty
much so, at least amongst the American Psychiatric
Association and the American Psychological Association.
Let's talk about the Vietnam War, that's what
I think most of our listeners are familiar with,
and then compare it to the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Going back to the question about is it only combat
veterans that get it, I understand that people
that were in a high -stress situation that were
not considered combat veterans, convoy drivers
as an example. I don't think people would say
they're combat veterans, but they were under
a high level of stress when they were running
those convoys. That's right. That's even exemplified.
Here's a point where we can actually sort of
compare or bring in the new war efforts and veterans
into the situation. Vietnam was largely a war
without fronts. And so you had support personnel,
people stationed on bases, you had medical personnel
stationed on bases that took incoming or what
do they call them, insurgence attacks, that sort
of thing. So there was a constant level of stress.
And that's exemplified by the war over in Iraq
and Afghanistan right now. You don't know who
the enemy is driving a truck. You're just as
likely in terms of being exposed to hostile fire
or, in this case, today's war IEDs and stuff.
So really, it's not just serving in a ground
unit or a combat unit now. Just one further item
about that. The more severe the combat experience
and the longer you serve in combat does have
an impact on how strong your PTSD may become?
I've got a personal observation that I made that
may or may not be valid. The Vietnam POWs, I
don't think anybody had a more prolonged experience
than did they, and I don't think anybody had
worse experience than them enduring constant
torture. Yet, I'm familiar with a lot of the
Vietnam POWs, they seem to be better adjusted
than the grunts that came home one by one. Am
I wrong, or is there something to that? Well,
I think one factor that enters into this is that
many of the POWs were highly recognized. In other
words, they were in the limelight. So, just as
in the case of a number of current veterans,
they received, when they came back, there were
special efforts made to deal with their illnesses,
both physical and mental, that they'd received
as a result of their incarceration. And so, it's
quite possible that there were special dedicated
efforts. to help these folks. And that could
be one reason. But I'll remind you that during
the last presidential campaign where Senator
McCain was running for the nomination, several
of the media people in interviewing him and stuff,
despite the pressures that goes along with being
under the media scrutiny, accused his temper
as being a result of having served, you know,
as a prisoner of war. That's something that I've
learned over the years to ignore as the media
and gather my own information and make up my
own mind. But what you're talking about is another
theory that I came up with, and maybe you can
debunk it or affirm it, is that PTSD is a combination
of pre -war or pre -event, the event itself,
and then post -event. In other words, what kind
of family did you come from? What was your upbringing?
What happened to you during the event, whether
it was a war or whatever? And then how are you
treated by society afterwards? Absolutely. You're
not alone in making those links. uh... that's
particularly exemplified in uh... the case of
the current veterans where uh... presently we
have anywhere from fifteen to seventeen percent
of our active -duty force are women who uh...
and we're going to get into that later with the
market for uh... but anyway you're absolutely
right on on that on that one it is uh... combination
of pre -deployment events if you will your childhood
experiences all those kinds of things then what
happened to you during the war daddy and then
how it was dealt with afterwards and that's particularly
true for Vietnam veterans because many of us
have been dealing with our PTSD for 40 years
now and perhaps not under the care of a psychologist,
a psychiatrist, or a physician. We're talking
to Dr. Tom Berger, who is the National Committee
Chair for PTSD for Vietnam Veterans of America,
himself a combat veteran for Anabe -Maria Network.
Doctor, what role does society have in the healing
process of the people that they send off to war?
Well, that's a loaded question, Gary. One important
factor that our culture can offer us is support.
The other element is training. And that is mental
health preparation should be a part of a recruit
training, procedures, you know, that sort of
thing. And link that back with education. to
our military families and spouses and all that
sort of thing, as to mental health preparation.
Does that... Well, it does, but going a little
bit further with that, when the World War II
vets came back, it was widely said that they
came back, they went on with their lives, and
they didn't have all these problems. may or may
not be true, but the World War II vets came back,
they were honored, there were the parades, there
was television shows, there were movies, there
were books written about what heroes they were,
and the special treatment, go to the head of
the line, let me buy you a drink, you get in
free, and wear your uniform, we want to be proud
of you. And then when the Vietnam vets came back,
it was the opposite. And I maintain, and well,
it's not my own idea, Dr. David Grossman wrote
about it, in that society's reaction to the veterans
coming back from war is critical in how well
they heal. Actually, that's what I was referring
to when I said support. World War II was a different
type of war. And the public accepted the sacrifices.
that it had to make as well as recognize the
contributions of its sons and daughters that
it sent over there. There's another factor, too,
and that is, upon the conclusion of the war,
troops came back en masse. I mean, they came
back as units. Oftentimes on ships, or most of
the time on ships, where they had a chance to
sort of let off steam with one another, sort
of the early wrap group kind of things, where
you... uh... perhaps had an opportunity to talk
about your experience or your experiences with
your fellow troopers um... vietnam as you well
-known was not the same way we could have been
in in combat uh... one day and within thirty
six hours we were back uh... in company you know
in united states so that's another element that
adds to it and of course the unpopularity of
the Vietnam War in terms of the larger American
culture certainly contributed. There were no
welcome home parades. People, you know, were
often treated chappily. In fact, you had to,
you learned to keep quiet about it. My barber,
I spoke to, I went to him for 10 years and we
talked about everything under the sun we thought.
And then he got interviewed about being a Vietnam
veteran and I read about it in the paper. And
when I went to see him I said, Bobby, you were
in country? And he said, yeah. You mean you were?
Ten years we talked about everything. Absolutely.
Absolutely. And so we were conditioned to keep
our mouths shut about it. It was one of our,
and still is, one of our coping mechanisms to
deal with the unpleasantness of our experiences.
Well, we're talking to Dr. Tom Berger, Vietnam
Veterans of America National Chair on PTSD. We're
going to a break and when we come back, we're
going to be joined by Marsha Four, an in -country
Vietnam vet who deals with women's issues. The
Medal of Honor is the highest award for valor
in combat given a member of the Armed Forces
of the United States. There have been over 3
,400 recipients of the nation's highest award.
This is one of them. Army Specialist Alan Lynch
saved three men in the face of hostile fire,
then defended his position alone for more than
two hours. Details after this. While serving
in the forward element of an operation in Vietnam,
Lynch's unit became heavily engaged with a numerically
superior enemy force. Observing three wounded
comrades lying exposed to enemy fire, Lynch dashed
across 50 meters of open ground through a withering
hail of enemy fire to administer aid. Reconnoitering
a nearby trench for a covered position to protect
the wounded from intense hostile fire, he killed
two enemy soldiers at point -blank range. With
the trench cleared, he unhesitatingly returned
to the fire -swept area three times to carry
the wounded men to safety. When his company was
forced to withdraw by the superior firepower
of the enemy, Lynch remained to aid his comrades
at the risk of his life rather than abandon them.
Alone, he defended his isolated position for
two hours against the advancing enemy. Using
only his rifle and a grenade, he stopped them
just short of his trench, killing five. Again,
disregarding his safety in the face of withering
hostile fire, he crossed 70 meters of exposed
terrain five times to carry his wounded comrades
to a more secure area. Once he had assured their
comfort and safety, Lynch located a counter -attacking
and friendly company to assist in directing the
attack. in evacuating the three casualties. The
Medal of Honor series is a production of Veterans
Radio. And welcome back to Veterans Radio. You're
listening to it on the Ave Maria Network and
we're eternally grateful to the Ave Maria Network
for carrying us on three stations here in Ann
Arbor and Saginaw, Michigan and Naples, Florida.
Well, Immokalee actually. Immokalee. Immokalee.
Yes, that's where the Ave Maria City is being
built and where the studio will be. Okay. It's
in the middle of the jungle. Trust me. It sounded
Latin to me and I thought, holy cow. No, that's
Indian. Immaculate. Oh, is it? Yes, very Indian.
I was trying to go back to my old altar boy days
when I could say all the prayers in Latin. Didn't
know what they meant, but I could say them. Marsha
Four. Ms. Four is a Vietnam in -country veteran.
She served on active duty with the Army Nurse
Corps from 1967 to 1970. Ms. Por is a life member
of Vietnam Veterans of America where she serves
on its National Board of Directors and I might
add was the top vote getter among all of the
candidates in a couple of elections in a row
now. She is a member of several national committees
and chairs its Women Veterans Committee. Currently
she's the Director of Homeless Veterans Services
for the Philadelphia Veterans Multiservice and
Education Center. In Philadelphia she is responsible
for a 95 bed homeless male veteran transitional
residence, a 30 bed homeless women veteran transitional
residence, a day service program for homeless
veterans, and a HUD 30 unit shelter plus care
program for homeless veterans. Ms. Foer has been
actively involved in veterans issues on a local,
regional, and national level for many years.
She initiated and was the executive director
of the Philadelphia Stand -Down from 1993 to
1999 and still serves ex officio. She is also
a member of VA VISN 4 Veterans Advisory Council.
Ms. Four has served as a consultant to the Department
of Veterans Affairs Advisory Committee on Homeless
Veterans. She has served twice on the Secretary's
Advisory Committee on Women Veterans. Marsha
was appointed as its chair by Secretary Principi,
serving from 2000 to 2004, and was reappointed
until August of 2006. Marsha Fore, what credentials?
Welcome to Veterans Radio. Thank you very much,
Gary. What a lovely introduction. Well, you know
what? I've been to every Vietnam Veterans of
America National Convention since 1993. and I
kept hearing the name of Marcia Ford, and then
when we did the candidate interviews for board
of directors, I could see the way you answered
the questions and the things you talked about.
I realized why you had such a high reputation,
and I went to one of your meetings on one of
the breakout sessions on homeless veterans. and
you guys were talking so far over my head that
I got up and went, I went to a POW and IA meeting.
I didn't understand the thing you were talking
about. Do you know, that's the one thing that
I am so proud of, Vietnam Veterans of America,
is the people there are so dedicated and so involved
in veterans issues, and not just for the Vietnam
veterans, but now really trying to take the young
veterans under our wing. There is a passion about
it. There is a passion about it. It's amazing.
Marcia, what special issues do women veterans
face? Oh. Well, we've only got 20 minutes. We
have time for a full workshop, however. You know,
I guess we could begin by the mere fact that
their population inside the military is so outweighed
by that of the men. And that sets up for many
issues that they do face and the ability within
that population to recognize what they need.
So when we talk about, I mean, there's two sides
of the fence. There's the Department of Defense
issues and then there's Department of Veteran
Affairs issues. And each has their own challenges
within that system. There's certainly sexual
trauma that takes place. We hear about it all
the time, but how prevalent is the issue and
how much more serious is the issue? Well, if
we're talking about military sexual trauma, because
many of the women that I work with, and I do
work with a population who is quite troubled
and have many issues and problems, but if we're
talking about military sexual trauma, It's, in
fact, probably very under -reported. You know,
I look and have a lot of conversation with the
Miles Foundation, which is a non -profit agency
that helps victims of military and domestic violence,
sexual trauma. You know, the Department of Defense
reports one set of numbers, and just as a for
-instance, between August of 2002 and October
of 2004. The Department of Defense said that
there were 118 cases of sexual assault reported
in Iraq, Kuwait, and Afghanistan. But the Miles
Foundation went back and looked at some of the
records that they have and the reports that they
had and the people that contacted them. In that
same time period, that number was double, over
double, 258. When we look at national statistics,
and I think it's a matter of record, that in
fact, cases of reported rape come in at about
30%. So if only 30 % of the cases are reported,
and we look at the numbers that have a discrepancy
between DOD and some of the reports the Miles
Foundation comes out with, and then we look at
the burden within the military and DOD on what
consequences will I have if I do report this?
Will I lose rank? Will I be moved out? Will I
be discharged? What retribution will I face?
Is this my commanding officer that I'm having
a problem with? There's so much of that, and
then overlay the burden of the fact that women
in the military, the numbers are growing. They're
growing greatly, actually. Well, we can talk
about some numbers in a few minutes. when you
look at How many women are in fact in that position
It's difficult to I guess probably even comprehend
how many are actually going unreported There's
a I was talking to the wife of a Army officer
who was training Iraq officers and And the day
before he was supposed to come back, none of
them showed up. They did a search. They found
them horribly tortured, all of them dead. And
then he had to get on a plane and come back.
And that was one of the last visions that he
had in Iraq of these 13 Iraqi people that he'd
been training. The wife said that he was having
an awful time dealing with it. But he was afraid
to go. to anybody in the Army for counseling
because he was afraid it would go on his permanent
record and he wouldn't be able to be promoted.
Is that the same thing that women are facing?
Absolutely. Absolutely. And we've even bumped
into a few instances and I've had some personal
conversations with veterans, in particular the
two I was, several I've been talking to. They
were male veterans. They were actually bumped
down to private from their rank of like E4, E5
before they were discharged out. I'm going to
ask a question that I may regret. What about
psychology? I did a Google search yesterday on
women's psychology and PTSD and was surprised
that there were loads of pages came up. Newt
Gingrich caught a lot of flack when he broached
that subject. Was he right or wrong? or sort
of right or sort of wrong? I think you'd have
to, I'm not really quite sure what you're asking
me. Well, the idea that men and women are different
physically and perhaps emotionally, is it an
extra burden on women being in the military?
Actually, I think there have been, and you can,
if Dr. Berger's on the phone, he can correct
me if I'm wrong, but there have been studies
That have proven that women are quite capable
and are able to perform To the level they've
been required to do without without burden Are
there differences between men and women? Well,
yeah there are Otherwise we'd all be men or we'd
all be women and right right and we wouldn't
want that But Gary this is this is Tom Berger
and You're going to interrupt Marsha here for
a minute. There is no doubt that when it comes
to performance in the military, that women are
just as good as men. There are too many studies
to indicate that that isn't the case, so I don't
know where Mr. Gitrich was coming from when he
made that statement, but that is absolutely not
true. Thank you, because I did remember reading
actually not too long ago a study that did indicate
that very idea. I've heard his comments discussed
in the past and it was one that I wanted to get
out on the air and out to the general public
and again, you know, it's one of those things
that you hold your breath when you ask the question.
Well, I think it was one of the common arguments
to keep women out of certain job descriptions
in the military. was one of the basic arguments
from time ago. We're talking to Dr. Tom Berger
and Marcia Four, both members very active in
PTSD with Vietnam Veterans of America and elsewhere.
You're on the, with Veterans Radio on the Ave
Maria Network. We'll be right back after these
messages. And you're back on Veterans Radio on
the Ave Maria Radio coming to you from Ann Arbor.
and also Saginaw, Naples, Florida. We're with
Marcia Four, who's talking about the special
issues that women face when it comes to PTSD,
as it results to military service, and Dr. Tom
Berger, who's the national chair of PTSD for
Vietnam Veterans of America. Marcia, we were
talking on the capabilities of women, and I just,
I appreciate that, and I... I thought it was
something that we ought to discuss a little bit
more, is what about the special, men have the
issues of PTSD stress, keeping it inside, they've
always been talked, don't be a baby, don't, you
know, and women are talked, to talk about it.
What, is there anything that, is it of note there,
and how do you deal with it? Oftentimes women
are more verbal. They develop close relationships
with other women and are more open sometimes
to talking to other women. I think that in many
situations that's in fact what's important in
some regard to the clinical therapeutic environment
that women will find in the medical and mental
health arena, we'll talk about the VA for instance,
and women's comfort level in talking with other
women, and the need for female clinical providers.
The number, incredibly, women actually are in
fact the largest growing population inside the
VA system. And those numbers have increased dramatically.
Even over the last year or so, it's gone up by
a percentage point. In FY03, the female veteran
patients have risen from about 5 .5%. And in
like less than a year and a half or so, two years,
it's up to almost 8%. It's expected to rise yet
again. And that will in fact be very affected
by the fact that today with 15 % of the active
force, 17 % of the Guard and Reserve, we're looking
at actually 20 % of all the new military recruits
are female. So the numbers will be rising and
the need will be dramatically increased within
the VA to be able to help provide services to
the women that are coming. And, Gary, this is
Tom Berger again. I might add Marcia hit on a
very important element when she talked or hinted
at the therapeutic elements. Amongst the most
effective treatments for PTSD, those treatments
that involve sharing of feelings and that sort
of thing are much more effective for women than
they are for men because men don't want to talk
about their feelings. I've got a friend that's
going through one of the rap sessions down in
Tennessee right now, and he's talked about that,
as a matter of fact. I've also learned that Vietnam
veterans is what I relate to the most, but people
come back from the war. They've come back from
very traumatic experiences. They get married,
they get a new job, they raise a family. They
become workaholics, they stay very active in
their job, and then they retire, and then they
have time to think. And that is when some of
the worst, the onslaught of PTSD comes on. Do
we really know, because of the newness of women
being in military situations, what's going to
happen down the road? Marsha. I don't think we...
can possibly know what's coming down the road.
We can only anticipate a need based on past experience
and what we're seeing in the war setting, in
the placement of women in that war setting, which
is much different today than it was in the past.
And as was, I think, hinted at earlier, the multiple
deployments. War is war is war. The streets can
look different. The uniform has changed. But,
you know, I go back and I just reiterate the
fact that the stress level of being in a war
situation, the smell of war, the smell of death...
Movies will never get that. That is universal.
And that is the one thing that we as Vietnam
veterans... share with the veterans of today.
The situation that's different, of course, is
the number of women who are serving and where
they are being placed in that service arena.
And they come back with responsibilities that
many of the women of the past did not have because,
in fact, so many of them are from garden reserves.
They have established families. They have children
that they are responsible for. And as you know,
there's a difficult period where you have to
fit back in to a place that's, and I put this
in quotes, normal, coming from a place that is
not normal. And the routines of the day seem
and can seem so mundane. It's like go back to
some of the feelings that we have had, like how
can you live this way when you know what's happening?
over there. Isn't that the truth? I'd add one
element to that, Gary, and on top of all that
is the fact that the VA healthcare system is
not prepared to deal with it. For example, just
this past week I had the good fortune to speak
with one of our current women veterans who was
actually one of the POWs, along with Lori Piestewa
and Jessica Lynch. And one of the comments that
she made was that she does not, where she lives
in the country, there isn't someone who can treat
her illnesses, including her mental health issues.
She's the only woman who comes to this particular
VA facilities. so she does not go there for certain
issues because here are all these guys sitting
around okay they know why she's there uh... and
so this is an added uh... element that she has
to deal with mentally uh... so we can't overlook
the fact that the system is not prepared to deal
with women's health period what do they need
to do martin looking at it I mean, we're really
concerned about the capacity, the ability and
the capacity to utilize the Vet Centers, which
were the readjustment services that Vietnam Veterans
utilized to a great extent. That's why they were
established. What will their capacity be to provide
combat -related PTSD in a gender -specific setting
with a woman clinician? we worry about that capacity.
And I guess that kind of goes back to the question
that I had earlier about women having very specific
needs when it comes to treatment of PTSD. Do
we fully understand them at this point? Do we
fully understand the needs of a woman versus
a man? I mean, you get a psychologist that's
been treating men for PTSD for a lot of years.
Is that person prepared to treat women or is
it all the same? Gary, let me jump in on that
answer. We are very fortunate at this point in
time to have some very, very qualified women
researchers who have taken their research with
domestic violence and sexual trauma in the civilian
sector and have moved over into the VA system,
okay, for whatever reasons, and are beginning
to develop ways to work with our women veterans.
That's a very, very positive sign, okay. I think
it does show that there is a need for the gender
-specific treatment programs that Marcia spoke
of. But I want to go back a little bit a step
and talk about DOD. I think DOD has a responsibility,
too. Now, the reason I say that is I don't know
how many people know this, but there's only two
localities for women's health in Iraq. If you
have a serious problem, all right, the main facility
is in Baghdad, and it is a six -hour ride by
convoy or a helicopter ride. Okay. For women's
specific health issues, DOD could be doing more
in the field in terms of prevention and limited
treatment because there are what I call PTSD
SWAT teams in the field out there in Iraq. So
DOD has a responsibility in this as well. And
I think, you know, when you combine it with what
we've said about the VA the challenges that the
VA faces. We've got a really serious problem
here. I want to tell my own little personal story,
an event that happened to me because we talked
about combat veterans. I was a CB. It took place
around us. We were in a lot of denial. We would
laugh about it. They're not going to bother us.
They know that we might get replaced by somebody
competent and that type of stuff. Now, 25 years
later, I'm in business. I was in a store. wearing
a suit and top coat in the middle of the winter
I was mulling over a business problem and in
the background a customer asked a stock boy about
something and he said well we've got a lot of
incoming inventory at the word incoming I was
diving for the floor 25 years later and I cut
myself without hitting the floor and everybody
gave me a look and I gave the floor a dirty look
and but I was shaking physically because I thought
where did that come from what about the So I
was not a combat veteran. We didn't get shot
at a lot. We only got shot at a couple of times.
Where does it come from? How can it be so bottled
up? We've got about a minute, a little over a
minute and a half. Would either of you like to
tackle that? That's the way we cope with it,
Gary. How we bottle it up. I'll go back. You
know, for so long walls are built up. We contain
it. We work. We move on. You know, we get involved.
We have developed a support system. You know,
and then things start crashing down. You had
your Persian Gulf. Things start whittling. Now
we have this, you know, this conflict going on
and it starts whittling away at the walls we
have set up and bringing us back to that place
where we were because war never leaves you. It
is part of who you are and how you got to where
you are. So the big thing is to talk about it,
communicate. We're told, you know, why can't
you leave it behind? And, but that's exactly
the wrong thing to do. You can't. Gary, if I
can say one more thing. About 15 seconds. Okay.
PTSD is not a death sentence. You can recover
from PTSD, but you need intervention. And please
seek intervention if you feel that you have any
of the symptoms associated with PTSD. Thank you
very much. Dr. Tom Berger, National Chair of
PTSD. Committee for Vietnam Veterans of America
Marsha for I can't put a label on you you do
so much for veterans Thank you so much for being
with us next week Eisenhower Bob Gould and Dale
Thornberry Eisenhower tune in if you if you like
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