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you're going to find it informative. We want
to welcome to Veterans Radio today Elliot James
Ratner, a Navy veteran. Elliot, welcome to Veterans
Radio. Thank you so much. I'm really happy to
be here. Well, you know, we were talking a little
ahead of time. You check a few boxes we haven't
talked to on Veterans Radio before. One of them
is a linguist. We'll talk about that. Another
is your transition from being enlisted to being
an officer. That's kind of interesting as well.
So let's start with this. How did a nice Michigan
State University grant end up in the Navy? Well,
I graduated in 2012 into a recession, and I had
no idea what I wanted to do with my life. So
I actually joined the Navy for the linguist position.
I was like, oh, wow, they'll pay me to learn
a language. I'm such a huge language nerd. I
was very excited. I shipped out. November after
I graduated and It was your undergraduate in
linguistics or in Arabic. What was the What was
that kind of a pathway? So actually I was a psych
major As is everybody who doesn't know what they
want to do with their life as a psych major,
but I received a scholarship to study Korean
and through MSU and I thought that when I went
to the Navy, I'd continue doing Korean, but they
offered me Arabic and I couldn't pass up a chance
to learn something completely new. Now, did you
go into the Navy as an officer or were you enlisted?
I was enlisted at first. I enlisted as an E3,
because I had college. And right after boot camp,
they sent us to Defense Language Institute in
Monterey, California, which is where they do
all of the linguist training. And how long is
that program? I don't think, as I said, I don't
think we've talked to anybody who's been in that
program on Baptist radio, but it always shows
up in the the novels that various people write
about spies and nefarious activities. So tell
us a little bit about what it's like to be at
that Defense Linguistics Academy almost. So first
off, it's beautiful because it's in Monterey,
California. But as an E3, it's also impossible
to live off of an E3 salary because it's Monterey,
California. But the The programming and the amount
of time that you're there actually depends on
what language you're going there to learn. Arabic
is a year and a half, so. And I assume it's sort
of like proficiency, you know, you've got to
keep every, I don't know, is it every three months
or six months, you've got to be showing progression
towards fluency? Is that how that works? And
if you don't, you know, you go peel potatoes
or something? Almost exactly, except not necessarily
every three months. So we would have unit and
test, but at the end of the program where you're
told, you know, you need to be at least at a
working proficiency in a year and a half, or
you're going to the fleet undesignated, basically.
So it's a fire hose, right? You're learning a
language at a fire hose pace, and then you have
your fluency test at the end of your language
course, however long it is, and you end up doing
a yearly proficiency test. At the start of a
program like this that's a year and a half, how
many folks start the program and how many actually
finish the program for, say, a year? Oh gosh,
I mean, I don't have specific numbers, but I
know we lost probably six people in our class,
and oh gosh. What did your class start with?
Probably in the 30s, maybe less. So they're small
classes so that you can get the most out of.
That's kind of a 20 % washout rate. That's very
high. Yeah, it doesn't surprise me at all. It's
not buds, but... Yeah, right, right. So, okay,
you pass through the Arabic Linguistics course.
You're proficient. Now what does the Navy do
with you? Well, they sent me down to Georgia.
Where all the Arabic speakers are. Why did you
go to Georgia? Is there a base there that you
go to, or is it now kind of working in a different
segment of naval intelligence or something? So
it is naval intelligence. It's through, do a
lot of work through the NSA. I can't really talk
about the work that we do there, but I ended
up working kind of administrative control under
the Navy and then operational control was under
the National Security Agency, first in Georgia
and then up in DC. So at somewhere on this path,
now you're in a couple of years with more, probably
more. you get transferred up to DC? Yeah, so
first I was transferred to Fort Meade, Maryland.
And then I was there until I commissioned and
moved to DC. And again, the work you're doing
is as a linguist, you're either reading documents
or listening to things, translating them. and
are you at this point still working kind of hand
in glove between the Navy and the NSA or are
you detailed off somewhere else? So at this time
I'm still you know under dual dual control. That's
interesting again I don't think we ever you know
unless you're in that position you never get
to peek under the tent so I'm sure veteran radio
listeners would like me to ask more questions
that would pique under the tent, but also could
get us in trouble with the unnecessary. I have
no desire to do that. I have no desire to do
that. So as you're going through this, because
you reenlisted, right? I mean, the Navy's kind
of hidden the marks for you. Tell us. Tell us
a little bit about, again, this MSU student with
a psychology degree. Why do you relist? I loved
the Navy. I felt really directionless before,
and I felt kind of like the underdog. I feel
like a lot of people in my life When I said that
I was joining the Navy I think a lot of people
were like you're not gonna you're not gonna like
it you're not gonna make it and I Absolutely
thrived in the military I really embraced I Mean
everything about it you you will never be able
to experience anything like the military without
being in the military. I mean, it's like learning
a new culture. It's learning a new language.
But, you know, it's crazy. I was on a ship, so
I have some appreciation for sort of the bonds
that you make with folks when you're all in miserable
conditions and the storms going, the food's horrible.
Back in my day, you didn't have mail for a month.
Was part of this, is the linguistics units, are
these pretty tight, almost insular groups? It's
a very small community. And so the people that
you work with, you're probably going to be working
with most of your career. It's interesting because
a lot of linguists don't end up deploying a lot
because of our dual nature. Of course, there
are people that do direct support operations,
but I was mostly sure duty as a linguist. Yeah,
I mean that specialty lends itself to that as
compared to being on a ship, obviously. You do
this, I think you said, for about 10 years? Yes,
sir. Is that two or more re -enlistments? I re
-enlisted in 2016 and then 2020. Oh, gosh. It
was two re -enlistments, but I don't remember
what the second one was. I'm trying to get to
the point. No, I think it was only one because
I think I was coming up for a re -enlistment.
Because I'm trying to get to the point where
you decide, I'm going to stay in and go to night
school. Now, we haven't talked about this yet,
but that's where you get to, right? You're still
in the Navy enlisted being a linguist and you
decide to go to night school. Do I have that
right? Yes. And what in the world made you think
you want to go to the law school? That's a very
complicated question. I mean, I grew up, I mean,
you know my dad, so my dad is an amazing attorney
and he was always so passionate about the law.
And you could just see that he loved what he
was doing. And I loved the Navy, but And I loved
being a linguist, but I saw what he was doing
and how he was helping people and I wanted to
be able to help people. As a linguist, it's interesting
because number one, you can't come home at the
end of the day and tell your family what you've
been doing, the things that you are doing. You're
so far removed from the end result that it's
hard to feel like you've achieved anything. And
the other thing was when I was starting to go
to law school, it was 2018 that I started, there
were a lot of civil rights movements and big,
big issues coming up that that I wanted to be
a part of and wanted to make a difference in.
And I thought that, you know, the best way to
make an impact and to help promote change, positive
change was through being a lawyer. So, so it's
a real commitment to go to law school for anybody
and try to put your hands in your face and it's
agonizing to think about those first year or
two. But to do it while you've got a full -time
job. Now, fortunately, you have short duties,
so you can kind of pull this off. But I don't
think a lot of people realize that education
is something military service supports, expects,
whether it's professional education or outside
here, you're going to change radically your career.
But talk a little bit about those challenges
to be both a full -time Navy linguist and then
taking on the burden of law school. Absolutely.
So I was very lucky that the shop I was in, we
call the places you work here a direct workplace
shop. I don't know if that's something that needs
explained, but your shop, or my shop at the time
was not, it was not shift work. So it was pretty
consistent day schedule, which was very nice.
And I had a very supportive commanding officer.
My chain of command knew that, you know, this
was my goal and I was applying at the time for
the JAG core in process. Procurement program.
Basically the program enlisted to officer, it
is the holy grail of programs. The acceptance
rate is less than Harvard Law. It is basically,
you know, you apply, you get selected, you go
to law school full -time while you're in civilian
clothes, you just have to show up for PT, stuff
like that, and then you get commissioned directly
after that. However, I did not get picked up
the first three times I applied. Because as I
said, it's easier to get into Harvard Law than
get picked up. And that's part of the story here
is that you don't give up. You keep moving forward.
And it's pretty unusual for an enlisted guy to
move through that eye of the needle and come
out the other side as an officer because you
have all this enlisted time and experience. So
was third time the charm or the fourth time the
charm? Fourth time was the charm. So the year
before I got selected, I was going to put in
a request, but at that time there was the first
Trump trans band. And I know we'll get to that
later, but I wasn't sure if I'd be able to stay
in at that time. So I didn't apply the year before
I got selected. And we can. So let's get through
graduation. You graduate now. Now what's the
Navy duty? Well, as well. to backtrack just a
little bit, I, as I was in law school, you know,
I was working in Odenton, Maryland. I was living
in Glen Burnie and I was going to school in Baltimore.
So I lived kind of equidistant between them and
it was in person until COVID. So my command had
to be very supportive of, you know, okay, we're
gonna, they moved me to admin. I ended up being
the commanding officer's administrative assistant
so that I could do that work and also work on
my law school and that was incredible. And of
course I had the GI Bill to put me through. So
thank you Navy for my law degree and not being
swallowed and died. Glad to have it available.
Yeah, so it was actually like two months before
I graduated that I got the call that I had finally
been picked up for the Jag Corps. And I cannot
explain the sound that came out of my mouth,
but it was one of the happiest days I've ever
had. I was so excited. Yeah, because you've gone
through all that pain of law school in the bar
state, Tom, but all that pain of law school and
don't know if you're going to be able, you're
going to go back to being a linguist or whether
or not you're going to get into the Jedi Corps.
So that had to be just overwhelming and a powerful
relief that now I know the path forward. Absolutely.
And boy, do I feel silly now thinking law school
was the hard part. Well, you get into the JAG
Corps, you get commissioned as a lieutenant.
This is about 2022 that you're commissioned and
you're in JAG. 2023, January of 2023, because
I had to pass the bar before I was able to commission.
Okay. And I had wrangled this sort of I wouldn't
say deal with my triad, but I had combed through
a bunch of instructions and found that if there
is a program that benefits the Navy, you can
be put on administrative leave for up to a certain
amount of days, paid administrative leave. And
so I was able to negotiate. how my studying for
the bar would apply as administrative leave.
So I think it might not have worked if my triad
was not so supportive, but I was able to take.
Every law student on the way to the bar takes
60, 90 days. You just study and you only want
to take it once and it's the worst thing in the
world. So you get permission. You're a lieutenant
in JAG. What do they have you do to begin with
and where do they say they're going to send you
before you end up separating in, I think it was
January of 2025? So what do you do in that window
of time? So I actually separated in April of
25. Oh, okay. When I first got commissioned,
they sent us to Officer Development School in
Newport, which cannot compare to the hell they
put the OCS kids through, but I still remember
some of my classmates being like, this is so
hard, this is the worst thing ever. And I'm like.
You're not getting pepper sprayed you're not
You don't have to do the peanut butter shot you
guys are living the life But Yeah, so I went
through that and then I Went back to DC. I got
orders to the the Navy Yard in DC, which was
the place that I Really wanted to be I had done
a couple months as an administrative assistant
at the Navy Yard in the legal office, I think
in 2017 when I was applying for the JAG Corps.
And so I wanted it to be kind of full circle.
I wanted that to be the first place that I was
stationed and I was very blessed to have that
opportunity. I came back for a couple of months
between Officer Development School and the Naval
Justice School. And we got a wonderful apartment.
And then we went to Naval Justice School for
11 weeks up in Newport again. So there's, I keep
forgetting how many training programs they always
send you before they turn you loose. But let's,
I'm going to change the dynamic here a little
bit because along this way you have a major transition
in your life because you enter the Navy as a
woman and by the time you get to the Jag Corps
you're a trans man. Do I have that time thing
about right? Yes, so I I came out as transgender
in 2020. And that was right around the time that
the first Trump administration had put out a
ban on transgender people joining the service
and seeking any sort of medical assistance in
transitioning if they hadn't already started.
It was originally going to be a full ban, but
the lawsuits at that time were able to kind of
factor in this grandfather clause that protected
people that were already openly serving. And
I was not. That's what I'm saying. Your transition
was sort of later than that. So walk us through
how that worked and how it impacted your naval
career. That's a big question, I realize. It
is a big question, but I think it actually has
a very wonderful answer that also later, you
know, ends tragically but gets better. I, it's
hard to say because, all right, I came out in
2020. I had struggled with a lot of issues that
I, a lot of I had a lot of mental health issues
that I did not realize were related to crippling
dysphoria, the misalignment. It's really, you
can't understand it unless you have it. And I
think that's where a lot of people, a lot of
people might think that It is a mental illness
in of itself and it's not. But you wouldn't know
what it feels like to be incongruent with yourself
if you didn't have it. And I remember once I
finally came out to myself, I knew when I was
12, I came out, did not get a lot of support
at that time. And so I kind of was like, oh,
well, just kidding, I guess. That was silly of
me to think. And so fast forward to this point,
I come out, I finally feel like myself, but I'm
also having to hide myself from work. We've been
in the Navy for eight years at that point or
so. Yes, about eight years and really loved being
in the Navy. I was in law school, I was in my
second year and I was able to socially transition
in law school with a lot of support. The people
that did know at the time in the military were
also very supportive and At this time, I had
applied twice to the Jag Corps and failed. Well,
not failed, I just wasn't accepted, right? It
felt like a failure to me. And then I didn't
apply that year, 2020, because if I wasn't gonna
be able to transition, I couldn't stay in. And
so fast forward to, I think it was 21, January
21, one of the first executive orders that then
President Biden had put out was allowed open
service for transgender individuals. And I remember
sitting at my desk in Maryland and just sobbed.
I was so happy. And I kind of, I was afraid at
the time that as I was coming out to people in
the Navy, that they would be unsupportive or
hateful or judgmental. A lot of trans people
face that, but my experience, I had a lot of
love and support from the people in the military,
not just my peers, but my leadership. I ended
up, after being true to myself, after transitioning,
I got picked up for the Jag Corps. I became,
as myself too, I was openly transgender in the
application process. I was picked up. with them
knowing I actually became the first openly transgender
individual to be commissioned to the Navy Jag
Corps. And of course, openly is the key word.
And it was it was such an honor. And it felt
like the timing was perfect that, you know, I
had found myself and then I had gotten my goal.
Well, and part of the story is I think there's
an image that everybody in the military is a
bunch of blah, blah, blah, and they would not
be supportive. But you'd proven yourself up.
This was about whether or not the guy could do
the job. Yeah. You had proven to your peers and
your command you could do the job. And that seemed
to be maybe the critical issue, really? Yeah.
And I have always I was always really in love
with the fitness program through the Navy. I
was a assistant command fitness leader for almost
my entire career. And then when I commissioned
as a JAG, I became the command fitness leader,
held one of the highest physical fitness scores.
I was the head of the suicide prevention program,
the sexual assault prevention program. I had
my fingers in all these things and made sure
that I was performing at the highest caliber
that I could. I feel like people who are in a
minority group always feel that pressure that
they have to outperform their peers just to get
the same amount of respect. But I think it also
shows that not only are trans service members
capable of doing the bare minimum standards for
service, but can actually surpass that and be
operating at the highest level. And as you transition,
you're talking about fitness standards, and I
want to maybe just underline this point. Your
fitness requirements as a woman were different
than your fitness requirements as a man, and
you still were at the highest levels. Yes, sir.
Yes, sir. And my scores prior to transition.
I tend not to say as a woman. I just say prior
to my transition, I was still performing at the
male high standards. And I think, you know, not
only does that show that women are capable of
high standards, but also that this discourse
around trans people and athletic performance
doesn't really matter. It shouldn't be a question.
Before we run out of time, I want to talk about
what happened uh, in your situation, but really
happened. And there's some statistics that say
they reflect something like 4 ,000 people with
gender dysphoria, diagnosis, serving active duty
or on national guard or reserves. I don't know
if that number is right or wrong or indifferent.
Um, but when the Trump and Trump 2 .0, I guess
I'll call it comes in and Pete Hegseth becomes
the, uh, the new secretary of defense slash war.
They changed the policy that President Biden
had put into place and that jeopardizes your
career and all the careers of these other folks.
Talk to us a little bit about that phase of life.
Absolutely. So as soon as the election results
came out, everyone already knew that this was
going to be a hot issue. Yeah, we knew that it
was coming down the line. We didn't know what
it would look like, if there would be a grandfather
clause like last time. But when the executive
order came out in January, I don't know if you've
read the executive order. I've not, and this
is January of 2025, correct? Yes, I will not.
pull it up and read it because the language is
so hateful. It frames trans service members as
people who lack honor and integrity, which is
just false. I mean, you have... If you search
the amazing people, the amazing trans service
members who have come out about their stories,
these are pilots, these are doctors, these are
people that have deployed to protect their family
and their country. It's just, it's so insane.
But we had to wait for, so the executive order
came out. And so we knew that there was going
to be a trans ban. We didn't know what it was
going to look like still. We didn't know how
they would be identifying trans service members.
We didn't know anything. We didn't have a timeline.
And there was the lawsuits that got launched
and they fought so hard. And we ended up getting
a couple preliminary injunctions, but they did
not hold. And then, of course, they were the
injunctions were lifted. And so the first. And
so I saw the writing on the wall. I knew everyone
knew because I was very out about my transition.
And I mean. So I knew that I needed to switch
gears. I knew I was not going to last. I needed
to make sure, you know, I had a job because I
have a husband. I needed a job. I needed a place
to live. I needed to figure all this stuff out.
So I ended up my commanding officer helped me
actually push through a resignation right before,
you know, the shit hit the fan, for lack of a
better word. I ended up resigning my commission
just in time because when the injunction was
lifted, the new regulations were having trans
service members use the grooming standards of
their sex at birth. So you had trans women having
their heads shorn off. their heads, their hair
shorn off. Men's women were having their hair
shorn off. You know, people were not allowed
to call a trans man sir. If their sex at birth
was female, they were told to call ma 'am. Commanding
officers were told that if they did not report
one of their sailors was transgender, they would
be in violation of UCNJ. They were going through
people's medical records to find out, having
people report on their physical health assessments.
So really it's a horrible transition. One of
the things I guess I'd like to know is, I assume
that when you resigned, you got an honorable
discharge. I did. And can you broaden that statement
out as other Transdale service members have left?
Are they getting honorable discharges? So, I
got an honorable discharge on my resignation.
I know that in the instruction, It says that
transgender service members who are separated
under the instruction are to have honorable discharge
unless there's anything that can give them something
otherwise. And you better believe that there
have been commanding officers that have gotten
people for the smallest things. I want to point
this out to folks because at this point you have
what? 12 years or so in the service. Yeah, almost
13. I wanted to retire. I was going the full
20. This is where you're at. And most vets would
get this. Maybe those listening to veterans radios
who aren't veterans wouldn't. But it's important
to have that piece of paper that said, I have
a nominal discharge for my VA benefits earned.
through those 13 years of service. So that's
kind of why I'm asking that question, trying
to tie up that end for people. Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, as a JAG, I did a lot of admin boards
where you have to tell the people who are deciding
whether to retain or separate the sailor, how
is their decision on the characterization recommendation
going to affect the service member? For life.
It follows them for life, yeah. It follows them
along. Well, Elliot, we've used up more time
than I asked you to hold for me, but I kind of
thought maybe that would happen. There's a lot
to this story, and there's a lot we're not talking
about because we've got time constraints. But
I really appreciate your candidness and honesty
of coming on Veterans Radio and talking about
both your military career but this transition
in your life and how it ultimately impacted that
military career. So Elliot, thanks for the time
today. Thank you so much for having me and for
letting me share how amazing trans service members
are. And I want to thank everybody for listening
to Veterans Radio today. I am Jim Fawzone. It's
been a pleasure to be your host. I'm a veterans
disability lawyer at Legal Help for Veterans
and you can reach us at 800 -693 -4800 or legalhelpforveterans
.com on the web. You can follow Veterans Radio
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