WEBVTT 00:00:05.160 --> 00:00:08.980 All across America and around the world, this 00:00:08.980 --> 00:00:15.140 is Veterans Radio. This is Veterans Radio. Good 00:00:15.140 --> 00:00:18.600 day. I'm Jim Fossone. I'm the Officer of the 00:00:18.600 --> 00:00:20.699 Deck today here on Veterans Radio and thanks 00:00:20.699 --> 00:00:23.460 for joining us. We've got some interesting stories 00:00:23.460 --> 00:00:25.640 for you. We always want to remind you, you can 00:00:25.640 --> 00:00:28.739 find more about Veterans Radio at its Facebook 00:00:28.739 --> 00:00:32.420 site or at the web, veteransradio .org, where 00:00:32.420 --> 00:00:35.259 we're on the web 24 -7. You can find a lot of 00:00:35.259 --> 00:00:38.299 our podcasts there as well. We post new ones 00:00:38.299 --> 00:00:42.479 every Tuesday, so you can get a new story, a 00:00:42.479 --> 00:00:45.219 new interview, something you didn't know before 00:00:45.219 --> 00:00:49.460 by going to veteransradio .org. 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We just want to remind you that Veterans 00:01:34.280 --> 00:01:39.340 Radio podcasts are available on all your favorite 00:01:39.340 --> 00:01:43.359 streaming platforms including RSS .com, Apple 00:01:43.359 --> 00:01:48.230 Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Podcasts, I Heart 00:01:48.230 --> 00:01:52.329 Radio, and Reeves Across America Radio. So wherever 00:01:52.329 --> 00:01:55.870 you are, you can find us, whether it's on your 00:01:55.870 --> 00:01:58.290 mobile phone or your computer or your laptop, 00:01:58.370 --> 00:02:02.030 your tablet, but listen in to Veterans Radio 00:02:02.030 --> 00:02:04.730 Podcasts. We post something new every week and 00:02:04.730 --> 00:02:10.909 you're going to find it informative. We want 00:02:10.909 --> 00:02:14.719 to welcome to Veterans Radio today Elliot James 00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:18.099 Ratner, a Navy veteran. Elliot, welcome to Veterans 00:02:18.099 --> 00:02:20.659 Radio. Thank you so much. I'm really happy to 00:02:20.659 --> 00:02:23.240 be here. Well, you know, we were talking a little 00:02:23.240 --> 00:02:25.300 ahead of time. You check a few boxes we haven't 00:02:25.300 --> 00:02:28.659 talked to on Veterans Radio before. One of them 00:02:28.659 --> 00:02:32.319 is a linguist. We'll talk about that. Another 00:02:32.319 --> 00:02:36.259 is your transition from being enlisted to being 00:02:36.259 --> 00:02:38.960 an officer. That's kind of interesting as well. 00:02:39.020 --> 00:02:42.449 So let's start with this. How did a nice Michigan 00:02:42.449 --> 00:02:47.490 State University grant end up in the Navy? Well, 00:02:47.669 --> 00:02:51.449 I graduated in 2012 into a recession, and I had 00:02:51.449 --> 00:02:55.590 no idea what I wanted to do with my life. So 00:02:55.590 --> 00:03:00.050 I actually joined the Navy for the linguist position. 00:03:00.229 --> 00:03:02.210 I was like, oh, wow, they'll pay me to learn 00:03:02.210 --> 00:03:05.710 a language. I'm such a huge language nerd. I 00:03:05.710 --> 00:03:11.180 was very excited. I shipped out. November after 00:03:11.180 --> 00:03:15.919 I graduated and It was your undergraduate in 00:03:15.919 --> 00:03:20.479 linguistics or in Arabic. What was the What was 00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:25.080 that kind of a pathway? So actually I was a psych 00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:28.319 major As is everybody who doesn't know what they 00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:31.919 want to do with their life as a psych major, 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:35.180 but I received a scholarship to study Korean 00:03:35.180 --> 00:03:41.719 and through MSU and I thought that when I went 00:03:41.719 --> 00:03:47.240 to the Navy, I'd continue doing Korean, but they 00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:51.039 offered me Arabic and I couldn't pass up a chance 00:03:51.039 --> 00:03:54.360 to learn something completely new. Now, did you 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:59.919 go into the Navy as an officer or were you enlisted? 00:04:00.979 --> 00:04:07.560 I was enlisted at first. I enlisted as an E3, 00:04:07.659 --> 00:04:12.520 because I had college. And right after boot camp, 00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:15.659 they sent us to Defense Language Institute in 00:04:15.659 --> 00:04:18.459 Monterey, California, which is where they do 00:04:18.459 --> 00:04:22.560 all of the linguist training. And how long is 00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:24.439 that program? I don't think, as I said, I don't 00:04:24.439 --> 00:04:26.160 think we've talked to anybody who's been in that 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:28.079 program on Baptist radio, but it always shows 00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:32.800 up in the the novels that various people write 00:04:32.800 --> 00:04:36.980 about spies and nefarious activities. So tell 00:04:36.980 --> 00:04:38.959 us a little bit about what it's like to be at 00:04:38.959 --> 00:04:44.079 that Defense Linguistics Academy almost. So first 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:46.060 off, it's beautiful because it's in Monterey, 00:04:46.220 --> 00:04:49.680 California. But as an E3, it's also impossible 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:54.139 to live off of an E3 salary because it's Monterey, 00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:59.779 California. But the The programming and the amount 00:04:59.779 --> 00:05:02.079 of time that you're there actually depends on 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:07.019 what language you're going there to learn. Arabic 00:05:07.019 --> 00:05:11.899 is a year and a half, so. And I assume it's sort 00:05:11.899 --> 00:05:14.199 of like proficiency, you know, you've got to 00:05:14.199 --> 00:05:16.680 keep every, I don't know, is it every three months 00:05:16.680 --> 00:05:19.300 or six months, you've got to be showing progression 00:05:19.300 --> 00:05:22.579 towards fluency? Is that how that works? And 00:05:22.579 --> 00:05:24.819 if you don't, you know, you go peel potatoes 00:05:24.819 --> 00:05:29.970 or something? Almost exactly, except not necessarily 00:05:29.970 --> 00:05:36.129 every three months. So we would have unit and 00:05:36.129 --> 00:05:40.410 test, but at the end of the program where you're 00:05:40.410 --> 00:05:43.910 told, you know, you need to be at least at a 00:05:43.910 --> 00:05:48.629 working proficiency in a year and a half, or 00:05:48.629 --> 00:05:51.189 you're going to the fleet undesignated, basically. 00:05:53.180 --> 00:05:55.420 So it's a fire hose, right? You're learning a 00:05:55.420 --> 00:05:58.079 language at a fire hose pace, and then you have 00:05:58.079 --> 00:06:04.819 your fluency test at the end of your language 00:06:04.819 --> 00:06:08.959 course, however long it is, and you end up doing 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:13.779 a yearly proficiency test. At the start of a 00:06:13.779 --> 00:06:16.300 program like this that's a year and a half, how 00:06:16.300 --> 00:06:20.000 many folks start the program and how many actually 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:24.389 finish the program for, say, a year? Oh gosh, 00:06:24.550 --> 00:06:27.949 I mean, I don't have specific numbers, but I 00:06:27.949 --> 00:06:33.069 know we lost probably six people in our class, 00:06:34.389 --> 00:06:38.250 and oh gosh. What did your class start with? 00:06:40.350 --> 00:06:44.610 Probably in the 30s, maybe less. So they're small 00:06:44.610 --> 00:06:47.829 classes so that you can get the most out of. 00:06:49.800 --> 00:06:53.439 That's kind of a 20 % washout rate. That's very 00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:55.740 high. Yeah, it doesn't surprise me at all. It's 00:06:55.740 --> 00:07:01.339 not buds, but... Yeah, right, right. So, okay, 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:06.560 you pass through the Arabic Linguistics course. 00:07:06.899 --> 00:07:09.319 You're proficient. Now what does the Navy do 00:07:09.319 --> 00:07:12.240 with you? Well, they sent me down to Georgia. 00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:16.259 Where all the Arabic speakers are. Why did you 00:07:16.259 --> 00:07:21.300 go to Georgia? Is there a base there that you 00:07:21.300 --> 00:07:25.300 go to, or is it now kind of working in a different 00:07:25.300 --> 00:07:28.680 segment of naval intelligence or something? So 00:07:28.680 --> 00:07:32.319 it is naval intelligence. It's through, do a 00:07:32.319 --> 00:07:35.480 lot of work through the NSA. I can't really talk 00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:40.420 about the work that we do there, but I ended 00:07:40.420 --> 00:07:46.379 up working kind of administrative control under 00:07:46.379 --> 00:07:49.079 the Navy and then operational control was under 00:07:49.079 --> 00:07:52.980 the National Security Agency, first in Georgia 00:07:52.980 --> 00:07:57.480 and then up in DC. So at somewhere on this path, 00:07:57.939 --> 00:08:00.480 now you're in a couple of years with more, probably 00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:05.629 more. you get transferred up to DC? Yeah, so 00:08:05.629 --> 00:08:10.730 first I was transferred to Fort Meade, Maryland. 00:08:10.889 --> 00:08:15.769 And then I was there until I commissioned and 00:08:15.769 --> 00:08:19.230 moved to DC. And again, the work you're doing 00:08:19.230 --> 00:08:23.230 is as a linguist, you're either reading documents 00:08:23.230 --> 00:08:27.870 or listening to things, translating them. and 00:08:27.870 --> 00:08:30.329 are you at this point still working kind of hand 00:08:30.329 --> 00:08:32.809 in glove between the Navy and the NSA or are 00:08:32.809 --> 00:08:38.590 you detailed off somewhere else? So at this time 00:08:38.590 --> 00:08:46.370 I'm still you know under dual dual control. That's 00:08:46.370 --> 00:08:48.610 interesting again I don't think we ever you know 00:08:48.610 --> 00:08:50.250 unless you're in that position you never get 00:08:50.250 --> 00:08:53.750 to peek under the tent so I'm sure veteran radio 00:08:53.750 --> 00:08:55.750 listeners would like me to ask more questions 00:08:55.750 --> 00:08:58.370 that would pique under the tent, but also could 00:08:58.370 --> 00:09:01.049 get us in trouble with the unnecessary. I have 00:09:01.049 --> 00:09:05.169 no desire to do that. I have no desire to do 00:09:05.169 --> 00:09:12.730 that. So as you're going through this, because 00:09:12.730 --> 00:09:15.809 you reenlisted, right? I mean, the Navy's kind 00:09:15.809 --> 00:09:18.159 of hidden the marks for you. Tell us. Tell us 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:22.220 a little bit about, again, this MSU student with 00:09:22.220 --> 00:09:28.220 a psychology degree. Why do you relist? I loved 00:09:28.220 --> 00:09:34.440 the Navy. I felt really directionless before, 00:09:35.019 --> 00:09:40.980 and I felt kind of like the underdog. I feel 00:09:40.980 --> 00:09:45.750 like a lot of people in my life When I said that 00:09:45.750 --> 00:09:47.450 I was joining the Navy I think a lot of people 00:09:47.450 --> 00:09:51.129 were like you're not gonna you're not gonna like 00:09:51.129 --> 00:09:56.889 it you're not gonna make it and I Absolutely 00:09:56.889 --> 00:10:03.509 thrived in the military I really embraced I Mean 00:10:03.509 --> 00:10:07.990 everything about it you you will never be able 00:10:07.990 --> 00:10:11.639 to experience anything like the military without 00:10:11.639 --> 00:10:17.879 being in the military. I mean, it's like learning 00:10:17.879 --> 00:10:20.240 a new culture. It's learning a new language. 00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:25.320 But, you know, it's crazy. I was on a ship, so 00:10:25.320 --> 00:10:28.480 I have some appreciation for sort of the bonds 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:32.000 that you make with folks when you're all in miserable 00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:35.360 conditions and the storms going, the food's horrible. 00:10:36.179 --> 00:10:38.639 Back in my day, you didn't have mail for a month. 00:10:39.580 --> 00:10:46.580 Was part of this, is the linguistics units, are 00:10:46.580 --> 00:10:53.080 these pretty tight, almost insular groups? It's 00:10:53.080 --> 00:10:59.440 a very small community. And so the people that 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:01.460 you work with, you're probably going to be working 00:11:01.460 --> 00:11:09.559 with most of your career. It's interesting because 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:13.440 a lot of linguists don't end up deploying a lot 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:18.139 because of our dual nature. Of course, there 00:11:18.139 --> 00:11:21.159 are people that do direct support operations, 00:11:22.139 --> 00:11:27.360 but I was mostly sure duty as a linguist. Yeah, 00:11:27.460 --> 00:11:31.899 I mean that specialty lends itself to that as 00:11:31.899 --> 00:11:37.860 compared to being on a ship, obviously. You do 00:11:37.860 --> 00:11:40.659 this, I think you said, for about 10 years? Yes, 00:11:40.659 --> 00:11:49.000 sir. Is that two or more re -enlistments? I re 00:11:49.000 --> 00:12:00.159 -enlisted in 2016 and then 2020. Oh, gosh. It 00:12:00.159 --> 00:12:02.000 was two re -enlistments, but I don't remember 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:05.159 what the second one was. I'm trying to get to 00:12:05.159 --> 00:12:08.779 the point. No, I think it was only one because 00:12:08.779 --> 00:12:11.639 I think I was coming up for a re -enlistment. 00:12:14.360 --> 00:12:15.980 Because I'm trying to get to the point where 00:12:15.980 --> 00:12:18.700 you decide, I'm going to stay in and go to night 00:12:18.700 --> 00:12:20.440 school. Now, we haven't talked about this yet, 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:24.779 but that's where you get to, right? You're still 00:12:24.779 --> 00:12:28.200 in the Navy enlisted being a linguist and you 00:12:28.200 --> 00:12:30.259 decide to go to night school. Do I have that 00:12:30.259 --> 00:12:35.389 right? Yes. And what in the world made you think 00:12:35.389 --> 00:12:40.169 you want to go to the law school? That's a very 00:12:40.169 --> 00:12:46.429 complicated question. I mean, I grew up, I mean, 00:12:46.429 --> 00:12:49.490 you know my dad, so my dad is an amazing attorney 00:12:49.490 --> 00:12:52.610 and he was always so passionate about the law. 00:12:53.009 --> 00:12:58.029 And you could just see that he loved what he 00:12:58.029 --> 00:13:04.950 was doing. And I loved the Navy, but And I loved 00:13:04.950 --> 00:13:10.649 being a linguist, but I saw what he was doing 00:13:10.649 --> 00:13:12.529 and how he was helping people and I wanted to 00:13:12.529 --> 00:13:16.870 be able to help people. As a linguist, it's interesting 00:13:16.870 --> 00:13:18.769 because number one, you can't come home at the 00:13:18.769 --> 00:13:21.210 end of the day and tell your family what you've 00:13:21.210 --> 00:13:28.149 been doing, the things that you are doing. You're 00:13:28.149 --> 00:13:32.659 so far removed from the end result that it's 00:13:32.659 --> 00:13:36.919 hard to feel like you've achieved anything. And 00:13:36.919 --> 00:13:41.379 the other thing was when I was starting to go 00:13:41.379 --> 00:13:46.519 to law school, it was 2018 that I started, there 00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:52.960 were a lot of civil rights movements and big, 00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:59.629 big issues coming up that that I wanted to be 00:13:59.629 --> 00:14:02.429 a part of and wanted to make a difference in. 00:14:02.509 --> 00:14:06.649 And I thought that, you know, the best way to 00:14:06.649 --> 00:14:10.870 make an impact and to help promote change, positive 00:14:10.870 --> 00:14:15.129 change was through being a lawyer. So, so it's 00:14:15.129 --> 00:14:17.649 a real commitment to go to law school for anybody 00:14:17.649 --> 00:14:22.870 and try to put your hands in your face and it's 00:14:22.870 --> 00:14:25.110 agonizing to think about those first year or 00:14:25.110 --> 00:14:28.080 two. But to do it while you've got a full -time 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:29.980 job. Now, fortunately, you have short duties, 00:14:29.980 --> 00:14:33.940 so you can kind of pull this off. But I don't 00:14:33.940 --> 00:14:37.120 think a lot of people realize that education 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:41.399 is something military service supports, expects, 00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:45.799 whether it's professional education or outside 00:14:45.799 --> 00:14:48.600 here, you're going to change radically your career. 00:14:49.740 --> 00:14:53.649 But talk a little bit about those challenges 00:14:53.649 --> 00:15:00.169 to be both a full -time Navy linguist and then 00:15:00.169 --> 00:15:03.789 taking on the burden of law school. Absolutely. 00:15:04.169 --> 00:15:07.730 So I was very lucky that the shop I was in, we 00:15:07.730 --> 00:15:16.029 call the places you work here a direct workplace 00:15:16.029 --> 00:15:18.450 shop. I don't know if that's something that needs 00:15:18.450 --> 00:15:23.399 explained, but your shop, or my shop at the time 00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:30.240 was not, it was not shift work. So it was pretty 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:33.320 consistent day schedule, which was very nice. 00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:39.860 And I had a very supportive commanding officer. 00:15:42.360 --> 00:15:44.980 My chain of command knew that, you know, this 00:15:44.980 --> 00:15:47.840 was my goal and I was applying at the time for 00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:54.269 the JAG core in process. Procurement program. 00:15:55.450 --> 00:16:00.950 Basically the program enlisted to officer, it 00:16:00.950 --> 00:16:04.809 is the holy grail of programs. The acceptance 00:16:04.809 --> 00:16:14.330 rate is less than Harvard Law. It is basically, 00:16:14.330 --> 00:16:18.710 you know, you apply, you get selected, you go 00:16:18.710 --> 00:16:24.750 to law school full -time while you're in civilian 00:16:24.750 --> 00:16:30.690 clothes, you just have to show up for PT, stuff 00:16:30.690 --> 00:16:34.289 like that, and then you get commissioned directly 00:16:34.289 --> 00:16:37.710 after that. However, I did not get picked up 00:16:37.710 --> 00:16:41.379 the first three times I applied. Because as I 00:16:41.379 --> 00:16:43.399 said, it's easier to get into Harvard Law than 00:16:43.399 --> 00:16:46.740 get picked up. And that's part of the story here 00:16:46.740 --> 00:16:50.919 is that you don't give up. You keep moving forward. 00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:56.200 And it's pretty unusual for an enlisted guy to 00:16:56.200 --> 00:16:59.200 move through that eye of the needle and come 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:03.759 out the other side as an officer because you 00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:07.599 have all this enlisted time and experience. So 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:09.980 was third time the charm or the fourth time the 00:17:09.980 --> 00:17:21.130 charm? Fourth time was the charm. So the year 00:17:21.130 --> 00:17:27.809 before I got selected, I was going to put in 00:17:27.809 --> 00:17:34.230 a request, but at that time there was the first 00:17:34.230 --> 00:17:37.920 Trump trans band. And I know we'll get to that 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:43.380 later, but I wasn't sure if I'd be able to stay 00:17:43.380 --> 00:17:46.380 in at that time. So I didn't apply the year before 00:17:46.380 --> 00:17:56.299 I got selected. And we can. So let's get through 00:17:56.299 --> 00:17:59.160 graduation. You graduate now. Now what's the 00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:04.869 Navy duty? Well, as well. to backtrack just a 00:18:04.869 --> 00:18:08.829 little bit, I, as I was in law school, you know, 00:18:08.890 --> 00:18:12.789 I was working in Odenton, Maryland. I was living 00:18:12.789 --> 00:18:15.109 in Glen Burnie and I was going to school in Baltimore. 00:18:15.230 --> 00:18:18.349 So I lived kind of equidistant between them and 00:18:18.349 --> 00:18:25.690 it was in person until COVID. So my command had 00:18:25.690 --> 00:18:28.849 to be very supportive of, you know, okay, we're 00:18:28.849 --> 00:18:33.720 gonna, they moved me to admin. I ended up being 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:37.339 the commanding officer's administrative assistant 00:18:37.339 --> 00:18:41.119 so that I could do that work and also work on 00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:46.599 my law school and that was incredible. And of 00:18:46.599 --> 00:18:50.920 course I had the GI Bill to put me through. So 00:18:50.920 --> 00:18:53.980 thank you Navy for my law degree and not being 00:18:53.980 --> 00:19:01.970 swallowed and died. Glad to have it available. 00:19:02.549 --> 00:19:05.990 Yeah, so it was actually like two months before 00:19:05.990 --> 00:19:11.329 I graduated that I got the call that I had finally 00:19:11.329 --> 00:19:17.650 been picked up for the Jag Corps. And I cannot 00:19:17.650 --> 00:19:20.369 explain the sound that came out of my mouth, 00:19:20.369 --> 00:19:25.089 but it was one of the happiest days I've ever 00:19:25.089 --> 00:19:30.700 had. I was so excited. Yeah, because you've gone 00:19:30.700 --> 00:19:32.900 through all that pain of law school in the bar 00:19:32.900 --> 00:19:35.839 state, Tom, but all that pain of law school and 00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:37.579 don't know if you're going to be able, you're 00:19:37.579 --> 00:19:39.779 going to go back to being a linguist or whether 00:19:39.779 --> 00:19:41.660 or not you're going to get into the Jedi Corps. 00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:46.579 So that had to be just overwhelming and a powerful 00:19:46.579 --> 00:19:50.519 relief that now I know the path forward. Absolutely. 00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:53.720 And boy, do I feel silly now thinking law school 00:19:53.720 --> 00:19:59.140 was the hard part. Well, you get into the JAG 00:19:59.140 --> 00:20:01.880 Corps, you get commissioned as a lieutenant. 00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:08.980 This is about 2022 that you're commissioned and 00:20:08.980 --> 00:20:13.599 you're in JAG. 2023, January of 2023, because 00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:16.440 I had to pass the bar before I was able to commission. 00:20:16.759 --> 00:20:27.740 Okay. And I had wrangled this sort of I wouldn't 00:20:27.740 --> 00:20:32.480 say deal with my triad, but I had combed through 00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:35.460 a bunch of instructions and found that if there 00:20:35.460 --> 00:20:39.740 is a program that benefits the Navy, you can 00:20:39.740 --> 00:20:43.559 be put on administrative leave for up to a certain 00:20:43.559 --> 00:20:47.359 amount of days, paid administrative leave. And 00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:55.619 so I was able to negotiate. how my studying for 00:20:55.619 --> 00:20:58.759 the bar would apply as administrative leave. 00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:03.660 So I think it might not have worked if my triad 00:21:03.660 --> 00:21:07.779 was not so supportive, but I was able to take. 00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:12.200 Every law student on the way to the bar takes 00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:17.259 60, 90 days. You just study and you only want 00:21:17.259 --> 00:21:19.140 to take it once and it's the worst thing in the 00:21:19.140 --> 00:21:24.069 world. So you get permission. You're a lieutenant 00:21:24.069 --> 00:21:27.710 in JAG. What do they have you do to begin with 00:21:27.710 --> 00:21:30.769 and where do they say they're going to send you 00:21:30.769 --> 00:21:35.569 before you end up separating in, I think it was 00:21:35.569 --> 00:21:42.750 January of 2025? So what do you do in that window 00:21:42.750 --> 00:21:49.109 of time? So I actually separated in April of 00:21:49.109 --> 00:21:55.539 25. Oh, okay. When I first got commissioned, 00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:58.640 they sent us to Officer Development School in 00:21:58.640 --> 00:22:04.539 Newport, which cannot compare to the hell they 00:22:04.539 --> 00:22:08.700 put the OCS kids through, but I still remember 00:22:08.700 --> 00:22:12.599 some of my classmates being like, this is so 00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:14.660 hard, this is the worst thing ever. And I'm like. 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:17.680 You're not getting pepper sprayed you're not 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:24.559 You don't have to do the peanut butter shot you 00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:30.680 guys are living the life But Yeah, so I went 00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:34.500 through that and then I Went back to DC. I got 00:22:34.500 --> 00:22:38.480 orders to the the Navy Yard in DC, which was 00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:43.819 the place that I Really wanted to be I had done 00:22:44.089 --> 00:22:47.950 a couple months as an administrative assistant 00:22:47.950 --> 00:22:54.210 at the Navy Yard in the legal office, I think 00:22:54.210 --> 00:22:57.130 in 2017 when I was applying for the JAG Corps. 00:22:59.410 --> 00:23:02.349 And so I wanted it to be kind of full circle. 00:23:02.470 --> 00:23:04.230 I wanted that to be the first place that I was 00:23:04.230 --> 00:23:06.809 stationed and I was very blessed to have that 00:23:06.809 --> 00:23:10.900 opportunity. I came back for a couple of months 00:23:10.900 --> 00:23:14.579 between Officer Development School and the Naval 00:23:14.579 --> 00:23:20.339 Justice School. And we got a wonderful apartment. 00:23:21.500 --> 00:23:27.019 And then we went to Naval Justice School for 00:23:27.019 --> 00:23:32.119 11 weeks up in Newport again. So there's, I keep 00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:34.480 forgetting how many training programs they always 00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:39.750 send you before they turn you loose. But let's, 00:23:40.190 --> 00:23:42.670 I'm going to change the dynamic here a little 00:23:42.670 --> 00:23:48.769 bit because along this way you have a major transition 00:23:48.769 --> 00:23:54.289 in your life because you enter the Navy as a 00:23:54.289 --> 00:23:57.529 woman and by the time you get to the Jag Corps 00:23:57.529 --> 00:24:00.549 you're a trans man. Do I have that time thing 00:24:00.549 --> 00:24:08.079 about right? Yes, so I I came out as transgender 00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:15.079 in 2020. And that was right around the time that 00:24:15.079 --> 00:24:21.720 the first Trump administration had put out a 00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:28.500 ban on transgender people joining the service 00:24:28.500 --> 00:24:34.069 and seeking any sort of medical assistance in 00:24:34.069 --> 00:24:36.470 transitioning if they hadn't already started. 00:24:37.410 --> 00:24:42.329 It was originally going to be a full ban, but 00:24:42.329 --> 00:24:49.930 the lawsuits at that time were able to kind of 00:24:49.930 --> 00:24:52.390 factor in this grandfather clause that protected 00:24:52.390 --> 00:24:55.990 people that were already openly serving. And 00:24:55.990 --> 00:25:00.130 I was not. That's what I'm saying. Your transition 00:25:00.130 --> 00:25:04.170 was sort of later than that. So walk us through 00:25:04.170 --> 00:25:09.789 how that worked and how it impacted your naval 00:25:09.789 --> 00:25:16.710 career. That's a big question, I realize. It 00:25:16.710 --> 00:25:19.690 is a big question, but I think it actually has 00:25:19.690 --> 00:25:30.710 a very wonderful answer that also later, you 00:25:30.710 --> 00:25:36.230 know, ends tragically but gets better. I, it's 00:25:36.230 --> 00:25:41.130 hard to say because, all right, I came out in 00:25:41.130 --> 00:25:47.970 2020. I had struggled with a lot of issues that 00:25:47.970 --> 00:25:55.200 I, a lot of I had a lot of mental health issues 00:25:55.200 --> 00:26:00.720 that I did not realize were related to crippling 00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:08.539 dysphoria, the misalignment. It's really, you 00:26:08.539 --> 00:26:11.180 can't understand it unless you have it. And I 00:26:11.180 --> 00:26:17.839 think that's where a lot of people, a lot of 00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:21.000 people might think that It is a mental illness 00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:26.460 in of itself and it's not. But you wouldn't know 00:26:26.460 --> 00:26:29.079 what it feels like to be incongruent with yourself 00:26:29.079 --> 00:26:32.779 if you didn't have it. And I remember once I 00:26:32.779 --> 00:26:37.180 finally came out to myself, I knew when I was 00:26:37.180 --> 00:26:43.460 12, I came out, did not get a lot of support 00:26:43.460 --> 00:26:46.000 at that time. And so I kind of was like, oh, 00:26:46.039 --> 00:26:49.329 well, just kidding, I guess. That was silly of 00:26:49.329 --> 00:26:55.509 me to think. And so fast forward to this point, 00:26:55.869 --> 00:27:02.430 I come out, I finally feel like myself, but I'm 00:27:02.430 --> 00:27:08.289 also having to hide myself from work. We've been 00:27:08.289 --> 00:27:10.589 in the Navy for eight years at that point or 00:27:10.589 --> 00:27:16.630 so. Yes, about eight years and really loved being 00:27:16.630 --> 00:27:20.369 in the Navy. I was in law school, I was in my 00:27:20.369 --> 00:27:27.150 second year and I was able to socially transition 00:27:27.150 --> 00:27:31.549 in law school with a lot of support. The people 00:27:31.549 --> 00:27:35.210 that did know at the time in the military were 00:27:35.210 --> 00:27:42.279 also very supportive and At this time, I had 00:27:42.279 --> 00:27:46.279 applied twice to the Jag Corps and failed. Well, 00:27:46.279 --> 00:27:49.460 not failed, I just wasn't accepted, right? It 00:27:49.460 --> 00:27:56.319 felt like a failure to me. And then I didn't 00:27:56.319 --> 00:28:02.519 apply that year, 2020, because if I wasn't gonna 00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:10.640 be able to transition, I couldn't stay in. And 00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:17.079 so fast forward to, I think it was 21, January 00:28:17.079 --> 00:28:21.559 21, one of the first executive orders that then 00:28:21.559 --> 00:28:27.380 President Biden had put out was allowed open 00:28:27.380 --> 00:28:29.839 service for transgender individuals. And I remember 00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:35.319 sitting at my desk in Maryland and just sobbed. 00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:42.740 I was so happy. And I kind of, I was afraid at 00:28:42.740 --> 00:28:46.680 the time that as I was coming out to people in 00:28:46.680 --> 00:28:49.500 the Navy, that they would be unsupportive or 00:28:49.500 --> 00:28:55.200 hateful or judgmental. A lot of trans people 00:28:55.200 --> 00:29:00.740 face that, but my experience, I had a lot of 00:29:00.740 --> 00:29:03.420 love and support from the people in the military, 00:29:03.579 --> 00:29:11.160 not just my peers, but my leadership. I ended 00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:15.480 up, after being true to myself, after transitioning, 00:29:15.900 --> 00:29:19.279 I got picked up for the Jag Corps. I became, 00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:25.380 as myself too, I was openly transgender in the 00:29:25.380 --> 00:29:30.220 application process. I was picked up. with them 00:29:30.220 --> 00:29:33.480 knowing I actually became the first openly transgender 00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:37.420 individual to be commissioned to the Navy Jag 00:29:37.420 --> 00:29:40.460 Corps. And of course, openly is the key word. 00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:46.799 And it was it was such an honor. And it felt 00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:49.539 like the timing was perfect that, you know, I 00:29:49.539 --> 00:29:52.079 had found myself and then I had gotten my goal. 00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:55.900 Well, and part of the story is I think there's 00:29:55.900 --> 00:29:57.960 an image that everybody in the military is a 00:29:57.960 --> 00:30:00.539 bunch of blah, blah, blah, and they would not 00:30:00.539 --> 00:30:04.279 be supportive. But you'd proven yourself up. 00:30:04.460 --> 00:30:06.480 This was about whether or not the guy could do 00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:10.519 the job. Yeah. You had proven to your peers and 00:30:10.519 --> 00:30:13.019 your command you could do the job. And that seemed 00:30:13.019 --> 00:30:17.539 to be maybe the critical issue, really? Yeah. 00:30:17.960 --> 00:30:23.230 And I have always I was always really in love 00:30:23.230 --> 00:30:25.329 with the fitness program through the Navy. I 00:30:25.329 --> 00:30:28.869 was a assistant command fitness leader for almost 00:30:28.869 --> 00:30:31.430 my entire career. And then when I commissioned 00:30:31.430 --> 00:30:35.150 as a JAG, I became the command fitness leader, 00:30:36.490 --> 00:30:39.509 held one of the highest physical fitness scores. 00:30:40.170 --> 00:30:44.779 I was the head of the suicide prevention program, 00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:48.720 the sexual assault prevention program. I had 00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:52.099 my fingers in all these things and made sure 00:30:52.099 --> 00:30:55.779 that I was performing at the highest caliber 00:30:55.779 --> 00:31:02.920 that I could. I feel like people who are in a 00:31:02.920 --> 00:31:05.259 minority group always feel that pressure that 00:31:05.259 --> 00:31:07.460 they have to outperform their peers just to get 00:31:07.460 --> 00:31:10.680 the same amount of respect. But I think it also 00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:14.160 shows that not only are trans service members 00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:19.160 capable of doing the bare minimum standards for 00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:22.220 service, but can actually surpass that and be 00:31:22.220 --> 00:31:26.400 operating at the highest level. And as you transition, 00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:29.299 you're talking about fitness standards, and I 00:31:29.299 --> 00:31:32.680 want to maybe just underline this point. Your 00:31:32.680 --> 00:31:35.339 fitness requirements as a woman were different 00:31:35.339 --> 00:31:39.140 than your fitness requirements as a man, and 00:31:39.140 --> 00:31:41.890 you still were at the highest levels. Yes, sir. 00:31:43.230 --> 00:31:50.450 Yes, sir. And my scores prior to transition. 00:31:50.990 --> 00:31:55.630 I tend not to say as a woman. I just say prior 00:31:55.630 --> 00:32:00.690 to my transition, I was still performing at the 00:32:00.690 --> 00:32:05.829 male high standards. And I think, you know, not 00:32:05.829 --> 00:32:11.710 only does that show that women are capable of 00:32:11.710 --> 00:32:16.869 high standards, but also that this discourse 00:32:16.869 --> 00:32:24.269 around trans people and athletic performance 00:32:24.269 --> 00:32:29.630 doesn't really matter. It shouldn't be a question. 00:32:31.809 --> 00:32:35.809 Before we run out of time, I want to talk about 00:32:35.809 --> 00:32:39.279 what happened uh, in your situation, but really 00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:41.599 happened. And there's some statistics that say 00:32:41.599 --> 00:32:45.140 they reflect something like 4 ,000 people with 00:32:45.140 --> 00:32:49.099 gender dysphoria, diagnosis, serving active duty 00:32:49.099 --> 00:32:50.940 or on national guard or reserves. I don't know 00:32:50.940 --> 00:32:53.019 if that number is right or wrong or indifferent. 00:32:53.599 --> 00:32:58.940 Um, but when the Trump and Trump 2 .0, I guess 00:32:58.940 --> 00:33:01.319 I'll call it comes in and Pete Hegseth becomes 00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:06.420 the, uh, the new secretary of defense slash war. 00:33:06.650 --> 00:33:10.970 They changed the policy that President Biden 00:33:10.970 --> 00:33:15.369 had put into place and that jeopardizes your 00:33:15.369 --> 00:33:17.730 career and all the careers of these other folks. 00:33:18.690 --> 00:33:22.369 Talk to us a little bit about that phase of life. 00:33:23.569 --> 00:33:29.309 Absolutely. So as soon as the election results 00:33:29.309 --> 00:33:32.210 came out, everyone already knew that this was 00:33:32.210 --> 00:33:40.369 going to be a hot issue. Yeah, we knew that it 00:33:40.369 --> 00:33:42.730 was coming down the line. We didn't know what 00:33:42.730 --> 00:33:44.769 it would look like, if there would be a grandfather 00:33:44.769 --> 00:33:52.609 clause like last time. But when the executive 00:33:52.609 --> 00:33:55.809 order came out in January, I don't know if you've 00:33:55.809 --> 00:33:58.369 read the executive order. I've not, and this 00:33:58.369 --> 00:34:04.150 is January of 2025, correct? Yes, I will not. 00:34:04.490 --> 00:34:08.329 pull it up and read it because the language is 00:34:08.329 --> 00:34:16.510 so hateful. It frames trans service members as 00:34:16.510 --> 00:34:23.530 people who lack honor and integrity, which is 00:34:23.530 --> 00:34:27.710 just false. I mean, you have... If you search 00:34:27.710 --> 00:34:30.630 the amazing people, the amazing trans service 00:34:30.630 --> 00:34:32.710 members who have come out about their stories, 00:34:33.070 --> 00:34:36.769 these are pilots, these are doctors, these are 00:34:36.769 --> 00:34:40.829 people that have deployed to protect their family 00:34:40.829 --> 00:34:44.670 and their country. It's just, it's so insane. 00:34:46.289 --> 00:34:53.710 But we had to wait for, so the executive order 00:34:53.710 --> 00:34:56.650 came out. And so we knew that there was going 00:34:56.650 --> 00:34:58.550 to be a trans ban. We didn't know what it was 00:34:58.550 --> 00:35:01.110 going to look like still. We didn't know how 00:35:01.110 --> 00:35:06.170 they would be identifying trans service members. 00:35:08.250 --> 00:35:11.150 We didn't know anything. We didn't have a timeline. 00:35:12.429 --> 00:35:17.050 And there was the lawsuits that got launched 00:35:17.050 --> 00:35:22.380 and they fought so hard. And we ended up getting 00:35:22.380 --> 00:35:25.639 a couple preliminary injunctions, but they did 00:35:25.639 --> 00:35:29.619 not hold. And then, of course, they were the 00:35:29.619 --> 00:35:37.599 injunctions were lifted. And so the first. And 00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:41.519 so I saw the writing on the wall. I knew everyone 00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:44.719 knew because I was very out about my transition. 00:35:45.639 --> 00:35:53.630 And I mean. So I knew that I needed to switch 00:35:53.630 --> 00:35:56.710 gears. I knew I was not going to last. I needed 00:35:56.710 --> 00:35:58.710 to make sure, you know, I had a job because I 00:35:58.710 --> 00:36:02.710 have a husband. I needed a job. I needed a place 00:36:02.710 --> 00:36:04.889 to live. I needed to figure all this stuff out. 00:36:05.530 --> 00:36:11.329 So I ended up my commanding officer helped me 00:36:11.329 --> 00:36:14.610 actually push through a resignation right before, 00:36:14.610 --> 00:36:17.389 you know, the shit hit the fan, for lack of a 00:36:17.389 --> 00:36:21.380 better word. I ended up resigning my commission 00:36:21.380 --> 00:36:25.260 just in time because when the injunction was 00:36:25.260 --> 00:36:31.639 lifted, the new regulations were having trans 00:36:31.639 --> 00:36:36.400 service members use the grooming standards of 00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:41.019 their sex at birth. So you had trans women having 00:36:41.019 --> 00:36:45.070 their heads shorn off. their heads, their hair 00:36:45.070 --> 00:36:48.489 shorn off. Men's women were having their hair 00:36:48.489 --> 00:36:54.110 shorn off. You know, people were not allowed 00:36:54.110 --> 00:37:03.489 to call a trans man sir. If their sex at birth 00:37:03.489 --> 00:37:07.969 was female, they were told to call ma 'am. Commanding 00:37:07.969 --> 00:37:12.079 officers were told that if they did not report 00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:14.460 one of their sailors was transgender, they would 00:37:14.460 --> 00:37:21.760 be in violation of UCNJ. They were going through 00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:24.260 people's medical records to find out, having 00:37:24.260 --> 00:37:27.320 people report on their physical health assessments. 00:37:29.400 --> 00:37:34.500 So really it's a horrible transition. One of 00:37:34.500 --> 00:37:37.539 the things I guess I'd like to know is, I assume 00:37:37.539 --> 00:37:41.860 that when you resigned, you got an honorable 00:37:41.860 --> 00:37:47.139 discharge. I did. And can you broaden that statement 00:37:47.139 --> 00:37:50.739 out as other Transdale service members have left? 00:37:51.260 --> 00:37:57.760 Are they getting honorable discharges? So, I 00:37:57.760 --> 00:38:01.519 got an honorable discharge on my resignation. 00:38:03.519 --> 00:38:12.190 I know that in the instruction, It says that 00:38:12.190 --> 00:38:14.269 transgender service members who are separated 00:38:14.269 --> 00:38:18.190 under the instruction are to have honorable discharge 00:38:18.190 --> 00:38:24.210 unless there's anything that can give them something 00:38:24.210 --> 00:38:27.650 otherwise. And you better believe that there 00:38:27.650 --> 00:38:30.190 have been commanding officers that have gotten 00:38:30.190 --> 00:38:34.869 people for the smallest things. I want to point 00:38:34.869 --> 00:38:38.829 this out to folks because at this point you have 00:38:38.829 --> 00:38:46.000 what? 12 years or so in the service. Yeah, almost 00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:49.059 13. I wanted to retire. I was going the full 00:38:49.059 --> 00:38:54.500 20. This is where you're at. And most vets would 00:38:54.500 --> 00:38:57.679 get this. Maybe those listening to veterans radios 00:38:57.679 --> 00:38:59.760 who aren't veterans wouldn't. But it's important 00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:01.760 to have that piece of paper that said, I have 00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:05.699 a nominal discharge for my VA benefits earned. 00:39:06.090 --> 00:39:09.349 through those 13 years of service. So that's 00:39:09.349 --> 00:39:11.010 kind of why I'm asking that question, trying 00:39:11.010 --> 00:39:14.489 to tie up that end for people. Yeah, absolutely. 00:39:14.550 --> 00:39:17.550 I mean, as a JAG, I did a lot of admin boards 00:39:17.550 --> 00:39:22.130 where you have to tell the people who are deciding 00:39:22.130 --> 00:39:29.489 whether to retain or separate the sailor, how 00:39:29.489 --> 00:39:32.789 is their decision on the characterization recommendation 00:39:32.789 --> 00:39:35.710 going to affect the service member? For life. 00:39:35.929 --> 00:39:38.489 It follows them for life, yeah. It follows them 00:39:38.489 --> 00:39:42.590 along. Well, Elliot, we've used up more time 00:39:42.590 --> 00:39:45.389 than I asked you to hold for me, but I kind of 00:39:45.389 --> 00:39:47.289 thought maybe that would happen. There's a lot 00:39:47.289 --> 00:39:51.230 to this story, and there's a lot we're not talking 00:39:51.230 --> 00:39:53.789 about because we've got time constraints. But 00:39:53.789 --> 00:39:57.309 I really appreciate your candidness and honesty 00:39:57.309 --> 00:40:00.510 of coming on Veterans Radio and talking about 00:40:00.510 --> 00:40:04.539 both your military career but this transition 00:40:04.539 --> 00:40:08.519 in your life and how it ultimately impacted that 00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:11.119 military career. So Elliot, thanks for the time 00:40:11.119 --> 00:40:14.059 today. Thank you so much for having me and for 00:40:14.059 --> 00:40:19.599 letting me share how amazing trans service members 00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:22.780 are. And I want to thank everybody for listening 00:40:22.780 --> 00:40:26.539 to Veterans Radio today. I am Jim Fawzone. It's 00:40:26.539 --> 00:40:28.619 been a pleasure to be your host. I'm a veterans 00:40:28.619 --> 00:40:31.340 disability lawyer at Legal Help for Veterans 00:40:31.340 --> 00:40:38.460 and you can reach us at 800 -693 -4800 or legalhelpforveterans 00:40:38.460 --> 00:40:41.679 .com on the web. You can follow Veterans Radio 00:40:41.679 --> 00:40:44.980 on Facebook and listen to its podcasts and internet 00:40:44.980 --> 00:40:49.440 radio shows by visiting us at veteransradio .org. 00:40:49.559 --> 00:40:53.079 That's veteransradio .org. We would again want 00:40:53.079 --> 00:40:56.059 to thank our national sponsors, the National 00:40:56.059 --> 00:41:00.039 Veterans Business Development Council, nvbdc 00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:05.099 .org. 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