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We're going 00:02:08.550 --> 00:02:10.870 to have a couple of great stories today about 00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:14.699 local histories, one in the Peninsula State of 00:02:14.699 --> 00:02:17.259 Michigan and one in the Peninsula State of Florida, 00:02:18.259 --> 00:02:21.400 on African -American efforts during the Civil 00:02:21.400 --> 00:02:23.680 War that kind of lost history, if you will. So 00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:25.219 I think you're going to stick around and enjoy 00:02:25.219 --> 00:02:29.000 both of these on Veterans Radio. We want to welcome 00:02:29.000 --> 00:02:34.080 to Veterans Radio today Maurice Imhoff, a Michigan 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:36.919 historian and author from the Jackson, Michigan 00:02:36.919 --> 00:02:40.520 area. Maurice, welcome to Veterans Radio. Hi 00:02:40.520 --> 00:02:43.080 there, happy to be here. Well, you've written 00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:46.280 a book that captured my eye, and I thought, well, 00:02:46.520 --> 00:02:50.460 this is local history I don't know. And I think 00:02:50.460 --> 00:02:54.520 that's what a lot of us recognize, is there's 00:02:54.520 --> 00:02:58.060 so much local history we don't know. And I wanted 00:02:58.060 --> 00:03:00.719 to pass this along because I think all over the 00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:04.479 country, there are these kinds of... Little historical 00:03:04.479 --> 00:03:08.900 nuggets none of us know about, and you have researched 00:03:08.900 --> 00:03:11.780 and written on the first Michigan colored infantry, 00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:16.099 later known as the 102nd USCT, which we'll explain 00:03:16.099 --> 00:03:19.360 that action in a minute. Let's start, Maurice, 00:03:19.639 --> 00:03:22.300 with how did you get interested in researching 00:03:22.300 --> 00:03:25.439 this particular subject? Which goes all the way 00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:28.039 back to the Civil War. Very, that's a great subject. 00:03:28.259 --> 00:03:32.060 Great question to ask. I got involved at the 00:03:32.060 --> 00:03:35.259 Jackson Civil War muster in 2014, now the largest 00:03:35.259 --> 00:03:37.300 civil war living history event in the Midwest. 00:03:38.180 --> 00:03:41.080 My grandfather took me and he was a big historian. 00:03:41.599 --> 00:03:45.699 I was not. He'd be talking history. I think some 00:03:45.699 --> 00:03:47.960 grandfathers could tell your grandson about the 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:49.580 history and how cool the railroad tracks are, 00:03:49.580 --> 00:03:52.210 things like that. looking out the window, staring 00:03:52.210 --> 00:03:55.210 off to the side, not paying any attention. So 00:03:55.210 --> 00:03:57.129 we go to the Civil War monster, which I did find 00:03:57.129 --> 00:03:59.389 interesting. But either way, he stepped away 00:03:59.389 --> 00:04:00.870 for a second to take a look at something else 00:04:00.870 --> 00:04:03.090 that came across a group of African -American 00:04:03.090 --> 00:04:05.870 living historians, which stood out. I mean, they 00:04:05.870 --> 00:04:07.689 were the only ones and they're a bunch together. 00:04:07.930 --> 00:04:10.310 And I got to know those guys. And before I knew 00:04:10.310 --> 00:04:13.300 it. I was wearing a jacket, a hat and pants. 00:04:14.180 --> 00:04:15.740 Um, and my grandfather came back looking for 00:04:15.740 --> 00:04:18.980 me and I blended in with, which was kind of funny. 00:04:19.220 --> 00:04:20.839 What happened to him? I lost him. Where'd he 00:04:20.839 --> 00:04:23.379 go? And he, he was doing that. He was looking 00:04:23.379 --> 00:04:25.160 left, looking right, putting his hand over his 00:04:25.160 --> 00:04:27.379 head, trying to block the side. He was looking 00:04:27.379 --> 00:04:30.980 for me and, um, you know, to make the little 00:04:30.980 --> 00:04:33.720 story a little further there. I, uh, The first, 00:04:33.759 --> 00:04:35.620 so I joined and the first year was all about 00:04:35.620 --> 00:04:38.180 the battles. You know, as a young guy, you know, 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:39.860 14, I loved doing the reenactments, you know, 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:41.339 the musket, all that kind of stuff. That was 00:04:41.339 --> 00:04:44.639 awesome. But it was the second year when I visited 00:04:44.639 --> 00:04:47.980 the state archives in Lansing and got to view 00:04:47.980 --> 00:04:50.939 the first Michigan colored regiments battle flag 00:04:50.939 --> 00:04:52.600 that had actually been in the service with them 00:04:52.600 --> 00:04:55.980 in the 1860s. And it was in poor condition, you 00:04:55.980 --> 00:04:57.660 know, you're talking, you know, battle scars, 00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:00.220 you know, tattered condition, the silk had deteriorated. 00:05:00.589 --> 00:05:02.569 And I became interested in it because I hadn't 00:05:02.569 --> 00:05:04.810 really been researched that much. There was missing 00:05:04.810 --> 00:05:07.689 pieces from it, paint scars. So I started digging 00:05:07.689 --> 00:05:10.470 into that research. And before I knew it, it 00:05:10.470 --> 00:05:12.730 kept going and going. And I became the state's 00:05:12.730 --> 00:05:15.720 head researcher on the subject. Well, and it's 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:19.459 really interesting now we have spoken to the 00:05:19.459 --> 00:05:22.540 Gentlemen down at in Lansing who heads up that 00:05:22.540 --> 00:05:26.279 battle flags group Yes, and and they recently 00:05:26.279 --> 00:05:29.040 had a film out on these battle flags, which is 00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:31.939 fantastic film So we'd continue to recommend 00:05:31.939 --> 00:05:35.199 that to folks go to their website and and just 00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:37.319 put in Michigan battle flags You'll get there, 00:05:37.319 --> 00:05:39.680 you know history is not really taught in our 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:41.879 high schools in our colleges And if it's taught 00:05:41.879 --> 00:05:46.199 it's not taught in much depth But by being in 00:05:46.199 --> 00:05:48.240 living history, if you will, in the reenactment 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:53.339 and feeling it and smelling it and having all 00:05:53.339 --> 00:05:56.899 those senses, it sort of ignited a spark and 00:05:56.899 --> 00:05:59.819 an interest, didn't it? Absolutely. I mean, you 00:05:59.819 --> 00:06:02.910 get to seeing it. as firsthand as you can, right? 00:06:02.949 --> 00:06:04.810 Because I can't travel back in time to the 1860s 00:06:04.810 --> 00:06:07.009 or to anyone else. So being able to actually 00:06:07.009 --> 00:06:09.189 go and do living history programs puts you in 00:06:09.189 --> 00:06:12.250 the feeling. And not only do we do some normal 00:06:12.250 --> 00:06:14.149 programs at libraries and such, but I've gone 00:06:14.149 --> 00:06:17.290 to some more full on intense, immersive events, 00:06:17.389 --> 00:06:19.449 so to speak, where there's no crowd or you have 00:06:19.449 --> 00:06:22.160 500 guys out in the middle of the woods. I went 00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:24.759 to Bentonville just recently with about six of 00:06:24.759 --> 00:06:28.759 my guys. And we portrayed some of the men who 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:32.180 of color who were building corduroy roads, moving 00:06:32.180 --> 00:06:35.819 supplies, lifting logs, cutting down trees. And 00:06:35.819 --> 00:06:37.920 it really put you in the experience. And one 00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:39.740 of the funny things I like to say about that 00:06:39.740 --> 00:06:41.800 is as much of that as cool as the experience 00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:45.579 was, my guys were not having it. It was not fun. 00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:47.540 I mean, you're talking like the you'd march a 00:06:47.540 --> 00:06:50.079 mile, mile or two, and then they'd stop and they'd 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:52.199 tell all the white soldiers, you know, stack 00:06:52.199 --> 00:06:54.060 your arms such like that and then they would 00:06:54.060 --> 00:06:55.660 call us black soldiers up and say all right you 00:06:55.660 --> 00:06:57.079 guys didn't go get you know get the road fixed 00:06:57.079 --> 00:06:58.800 up ahead so we can move the move the man in the 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:02.579 wagons and my guys were mad because everyone 00:07:02.579 --> 00:07:05.779 else was taking a break and I say as as interesting 00:07:05.779 --> 00:07:09.000 as it was to see them mad it was cool to me to 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:11.379 see them get mad, because that's what you would 00:07:11.379 --> 00:07:13.639 have saw back then in a way, right? You're seeing 00:07:13.639 --> 00:07:15.500 the difference of what was going on and being 00:07:15.500 --> 00:07:19.160 firsthand to those young men. So now then going 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:22.160 as a writer and writing about the soldiers, it 00:07:22.160 --> 00:07:24.220 gave me, I could picture, you know, as I'm reading 00:07:24.220 --> 00:07:26.519 letters and piecing them in the book to gather 00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:29.019 the story, I could picture what it was like a 00:07:29.019 --> 00:07:30.860 little bit easier from someone else who had never 00:07:30.860 --> 00:07:33.439 done living history. And so your book is called 00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:36.529 The First Michigan Colored Regiment. Free men 00:07:36.529 --> 00:07:40.410 who fought slavery So put this in some contact 00:07:40.410 --> 00:07:43.209 Maurice help. How many men were in the regiment? 00:07:43.790 --> 00:07:47.750 How did it even get formed? Sure, so there was 00:07:47.750 --> 00:07:52.430 fourteen hundred and men in the regiment. 1 ,446 00:07:52.430 --> 00:07:54.829 to be specific. It's kind of weird that I know 00:07:54.829 --> 00:07:57.829 that off the top of my head, but that were joining 00:07:57.829 --> 00:08:02.029 this regiment. 1 ,000 of those men were freed, 00:08:02.350 --> 00:08:04.269 or excuse me, former slaves from the South who 00:08:04.269 --> 00:08:06.709 came up to Michigan and joined this regiment 00:08:06.709 --> 00:08:08.810 throughout, you know, at some point when they 00:08:08.810 --> 00:08:12.100 moved here. But it was formed by Colonel Henry 00:08:12.100 --> 00:08:15.579 Barnes in Detroit, Michigan, who was a large 00:08:15.579 --> 00:08:18.120 abolitionist. He ran the Detroit Advertiser and 00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:20.620 Tribune, which was the abolitionist newspaper 00:08:20.620 --> 00:08:23.100 there, the Republican paper, who was constantly 00:08:23.100 --> 00:08:25.980 writing about ending slavery in America, stopping 00:08:25.980 --> 00:08:28.360 the spread, and then also calling for the enlistment 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:32.139 of Black soldiers, which wasn't allowed. That 00:08:32.139 --> 00:08:36.919 was a radical idea, wasn't it? Absolutely. I 00:08:36.919 --> 00:08:40.419 mean, you're talking... Basically, by allowing 00:08:40.419 --> 00:08:42.320 men to join the Union Army, you're calling them 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:45.000 equal. And even here in Michigan, people are 00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:47.259 ready for that. People do not want that. Not 00:08:47.259 --> 00:08:49.480 the entire population, I should say, wanted that. 00:08:49.659 --> 00:08:53.539 And were these men also armed? I mean, do they 00:08:53.539 --> 00:08:56.759 train as you might think an army group trains? 00:08:57.000 --> 00:09:01.820 And were they given arms and trained in how to 00:09:01.820 --> 00:09:05.379 shoot and fight and defend? So yeah, so at first 00:09:05.379 --> 00:09:07.460 on the other parts of the nation that it started 00:09:07.460 --> 00:09:09.620 a little slow They weren't willing to give them 00:09:09.620 --> 00:09:13.299 firearms and such except but once the Emancipation 00:09:13.299 --> 00:09:15.919 Proclamation was passed by Lincoln now they could 00:09:15.919 --> 00:09:19.159 legally raised troops Giving you know giving 00:09:19.159 --> 00:09:21.179 them arms giving them everything. I mean the 00:09:21.179 --> 00:09:25.159 full pipe full mighty of the US government To 00:09:25.159 --> 00:09:27.000 enlist the soldiers so they trained in Detroit 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:29.539 at Camp Ward and they got a Lorenz muskets to 00:09:29.539 --> 00:09:32.470 start with later got Springfield muskets They 00:09:32.470 --> 00:09:36.769 did very well, and that was one of the thoughts, 00:09:36.950 --> 00:09:40.049 right? Are these guys going to do well? And what 00:09:40.049 --> 00:09:42.490 they found, I mean, as people learn this, if 00:09:42.490 --> 00:09:43.889 you teach them, well, they're going to do well. 00:09:44.190 --> 00:09:46.750 In some parts of the nation, you had white leaders, 00:09:46.850 --> 00:09:49.149 officers who didn't care, didn't feel like they 00:09:49.149 --> 00:09:50.830 could do a good job, so they didn't train them 00:09:50.830 --> 00:09:54.110 well, right? They kind of just didn't care. Michigan 00:09:54.110 --> 00:09:58.620 soldiers, leading officers. did care and they 00:09:58.620 --> 00:10:00.419 understood that these men could make good soldiers 00:10:00.419 --> 00:10:02.179 and they did. I mean, you can read stories in 00:10:02.179 --> 00:10:05.740 the newspaper from the 1860s about the men marching 00:10:05.740 --> 00:10:08.220 through the principal streets of Detroit, looking 00:10:08.220 --> 00:10:10.519 handsome, marching with their flag, with their 00:10:10.519 --> 00:10:13.700 arms and such shiny. So they did very, very well, 00:10:14.059 --> 00:10:15.960 making a strong presence here in Michigan, even 00:10:15.960 --> 00:10:18.919 going so far to when they went Niles to the reporter 00:10:18.919 --> 00:10:20.779 who was writing about the regiments coming for 00:10:20.779 --> 00:10:23.440 a visit on a recruiting tour. And there's a couple 00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:26.059 of copperheads who aren't in favor of this, who 00:10:26.059 --> 00:10:28.480 are basically They're looking forward to dispatching 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:29.679 the guy. They can't wait till they get there 00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:32.220 so they can laugh them off. And the reporter 00:10:32.220 --> 00:10:35.679 then wrote, after they left, these copperheads 00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:41.039 were blown away. They were so thrown that they 00:10:41.039 --> 00:10:44.179 didn't have any words. I mean, they changed their 00:10:44.179 --> 00:10:45.720 mind. Because all they're reading is the stuff 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:48.000 in the paper, right? Stuff nationally. Oh, they 00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:49.480 don't make good soldiers. Oh, they have their 00:10:49.480 --> 00:10:52.059 own opinions. But once they saw it firsthand, 00:10:52.549 --> 00:10:54.990 That opinion completely changed, and that stood 00:10:54.990 --> 00:10:57.669 the test of time when 180 ,000 black soldiers 00:10:57.669 --> 00:10:59.769 nationally took up arms and fought to end slavery 00:10:59.769 --> 00:11:02.210 in America. Well, and that's something I wanted 00:11:02.210 --> 00:11:05.250 to get across, too, because you got to put this 00:11:05.250 --> 00:11:07.570 in some context. I don't think, you know, again, 00:11:07.570 --> 00:11:09.649 we don't teach history, so this is going all 00:11:09.649 --> 00:11:13.450 the way back to the Civil War. But 180 to its 00:11:13.450 --> 00:11:16.629 estimated 200 ,000 African Americans fought for 00:11:16.629 --> 00:11:19.850 the Union in the Civil War that made up 10 percent 00:11:19.850 --> 00:11:24.549 of the Army. Today, in today's army, there are 00:11:24.549 --> 00:11:29.789 95 ,000 African Americans in active duty, and 00:11:29.789 --> 00:11:33.529 that makes up 20 % of today's army. So there's 00:11:33.529 --> 00:11:38.830 been a long continuous line of African Americans 00:11:38.830 --> 00:11:42.850 in the army fighting and supporting this country. 00:11:43.309 --> 00:11:46.049 And when you go back to this point in time in 00:11:46.049 --> 00:11:48.850 the Civil War where this was sort of the beginning 00:11:48.850 --> 00:11:54.950 and unusual, How did it work that they got called 00:11:54.950 --> 00:11:56.870 out of Michigan and where did they go and what 00:11:56.870 --> 00:12:01.250 did they do? Sure, so since they were a federal 00:12:01.250 --> 00:12:04.330 regiment or the color troops I should say were 00:12:04.330 --> 00:12:07.289 federal regiments, they were segregated. So they 00:12:07.289 --> 00:12:09.269 sort of kind of raised as a state militia as 00:12:09.269 --> 00:12:11.110 many of the other units were, you know, the 21st 00:12:11.110 --> 00:12:14.110 Michigan infantry, 20th, etc. So they were raised 00:12:14.110 --> 00:12:16.590 as the first Michigan colored regiment. However, 00:12:16.669 --> 00:12:20.220 once they got to DC in the Maryland area, They 00:12:20.220 --> 00:12:23.159 became federalized with the Bureau of the United 00:12:23.159 --> 00:12:27.639 States Colored Troops segregated. So like another 00:12:27.639 --> 00:12:29.220 branch of the Army, so speaking of today's times. 00:12:29.580 --> 00:12:32.779 So they became a redesignation say as the one 00:12:32.779 --> 00:12:35.059 hundred and second united states colored troops 00:12:35.059 --> 00:12:36.940 and that's that that people often get confused 00:12:36.940 --> 00:12:38.779 of the two different groups you know that's that's 00:12:38.779 --> 00:12:41.100 one unit they just had their name changed and 00:12:41.100 --> 00:12:43.860 that actually didn't like that um you know why 00:12:43.860 --> 00:12:46.500 they like being you know soldiers in the army 00:12:46.500 --> 00:12:48.299 and really respected i mean being federal troops 00:12:48.299 --> 00:12:50.620 to as well it gives you even more power right 00:12:50.620 --> 00:12:53.799 um they felt disrespected that they were these. 00:12:53.960 --> 00:12:56.740 colored soldiers. And I tell people, imagine 00:12:56.740 --> 00:12:58.500 there is a battle taking place. And if you can 00:12:58.500 --> 00:12:59.799 think of stories like this where you've heard, 00:12:59.919 --> 00:13:02.100 right? Imagine there's a battle taking place 00:13:02.100 --> 00:13:05.100 and the 20th Michigan infantry whips the Rebs, 00:13:05.220 --> 00:13:07.799 right? They destroy the flank and they whip them 00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:10.440 down the hill and they've ran them off. And the 00:13:10.440 --> 00:13:11.960 other unit nearby, the Illinois guys would say, 00:13:11.980 --> 00:13:14.539 wow, those 20th Michigan boys, wow, they really 00:13:14.539 --> 00:13:16.279 whipped them and they saved the day, et cetera. 00:13:16.889 --> 00:13:19.330 Well, in this case, now they just became the 00:13:19.330 --> 00:13:20.690 colored soldiers, right? They don't know where 00:13:20.690 --> 00:13:23.009 they're from. They're no longer the Wolverine 00:13:23.009 --> 00:13:25.090 state, right? They're just the colored troops. 00:13:25.509 --> 00:13:28.330 So they felt a little upset about that, but they 00:13:28.330 --> 00:13:31.070 still carried on that legacy of going by the 00:13:31.070 --> 00:13:32.809 First Michigan Colored Troops where they could. 00:13:33.889 --> 00:13:36.690 Well, and the importance of being federalized 00:13:36.690 --> 00:13:39.389 and that recognition, again, at the time may 00:13:39.389 --> 00:13:42.090 not have seemed like much, but... It opened up 00:13:42.090 --> 00:13:44.590 a lot of different opportunities including there's 00:13:44.590 --> 00:13:47.210 in Arlington National Cemetery there's a whole 00:13:47.210 --> 00:13:51.850 plot of graves related to those from the United 00:13:51.850 --> 00:13:55.490 States Colored Troops and they lost a little 00:13:55.490 --> 00:13:59.990 bit probably of that feeling of relationship 00:13:59.990 --> 00:14:04.009 to Abraham Lincoln's famous quote, thank God 00:14:04.009 --> 00:14:07.649 for Michigan, right? Yes. The context of that 00:14:07.649 --> 00:14:11.049 is Michigan sending troops to aid the Union cause 00:14:11.049 --> 00:14:15.389 early on in the process. Where did the research 00:14:15.389 --> 00:14:18.529 come from? Talk to us about, it really takes 00:14:18.529 --> 00:14:23.169 years of combing through things to get this book 00:14:23.169 --> 00:14:25.429 to where you say, okay, now I got the history 00:14:25.429 --> 00:14:29.200 right, let me get it out in public. Right, I 00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:31.659 started researching the newspapers, the Detroit 00:14:31.659 --> 00:14:34.100 Advertiser and Tribune, or I should say the Detroit 00:14:34.100 --> 00:14:36.279 Free Press. That's an interesting story in itself. 00:14:36.919 --> 00:14:38.419 I started with the Detroit Free Press because 00:14:38.419 --> 00:14:40.200 it was available online through newstrippers 00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:44.559 .com, which news historians will know. And I 00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:46.080 was reading all about the regiment, finding these 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:47.539 different stories through the paper and such 00:14:47.539 --> 00:14:49.679 like that. And I'll be honest, I couldn't believe 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:53.299 what I was reading because the Detroit Free Press... 00:14:53.389 --> 00:14:55.470 bash to this regiment. I mean, they have to go 00:14:55.470 --> 00:14:58.129 into march and say they tore up the city. Nobody 00:14:58.129 --> 00:15:00.850 wants them here. You know, why is Michigan even 00:15:00.850 --> 00:15:02.610 raising the troops? You know, they got their 00:15:02.610 --> 00:15:04.230 muskets, they threw them on the ground, so to 00:15:04.230 --> 00:15:07.509 speak. And what I learned, as a younger guy, 00:15:07.570 --> 00:15:10.070 what I was missing there was that this was the 00:15:10.070 --> 00:15:12.909 Democratic paper, which was not in favor of having 00:15:12.909 --> 00:15:16.110 colored troops. So in a media point of view, 00:15:16.629 --> 00:15:18.590 they wanted to tell the public that this was 00:15:18.590 --> 00:15:21.659 bad. And when I discovered the Detroit Advertiser 00:15:21.659 --> 00:15:25.139 and Tribune, it was a day and night. It's between 00:15:25.139 --> 00:15:29.100 the stories. And that lesson rings true today, 00:15:29.100 --> 00:15:31.639 right? Absolutely. I tell people, I don't want 00:15:31.639 --> 00:15:33.620 to put anyone on blast, but you put Fox and CNN 00:15:33.620 --> 00:15:35.179 on and sometimes you get completely different 00:15:35.179 --> 00:15:37.799 stories. Absolutely. And that is what you kind 00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:40.240 of see a little bit there. And so, yeah, and 00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:42.039 I do as well as a historian, you know, I make 00:15:42.039 --> 00:15:44.000 sure I'm reading through the bias because even 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:46.200 the advertising tribune is going to have a little 00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:49.360 bit of a bias, right? So I show that in my book. 00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:52.399 I do a chapter, I believe it's called Trouble 00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:55.200 at Camp Ward, which goes over a lot of the mischief 00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:58.279 that the soldiers did get themselves into. A 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:01.419 variety of mischief or a robbery. They got into 00:16:01.419 --> 00:16:05.159 fights at the camp. I got news for you. Put a 00:16:05.159 --> 00:16:09.200 bunch of young bucks together in the Army. There 00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:11.559 isn't an Army camp around that hasn't had those 00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:13.779 problems. Let's back up because you've mentioned 00:16:13.779 --> 00:16:17.190 it twice and I'm not familiar with it. Where 00:16:17.190 --> 00:16:20.029 was Camp Ward? It doesn't exist anymore today. 00:16:20.269 --> 00:16:23.049 People may know for Wayne, but tell us a little 00:16:23.049 --> 00:16:27.470 bit about Camp Ward in Detroit. Yes, Camp Ward 00:16:27.470 --> 00:16:30.379 was located where I believe, I'm not from Detroit, 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:32.840 so I don't know how it, they've changed the name 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:37.100 a few times. Ralph Bunch Elementary School. There 00:16:37.100 --> 00:16:39.159 is an elementary school there and some tennis 00:16:39.159 --> 00:16:42.179 courts and some apartments nearby. And the historical 00:16:42.179 --> 00:16:44.379 marker is located in the back of that elementary 00:16:44.379 --> 00:16:47.220 school by a little roundabout. There's another 00:16:47.220 --> 00:16:50.500 good example, there's another good example, Maurice 00:16:50.500 --> 00:16:53.940 Zimoff, of we don't pay any attention to history. 00:16:53.980 --> 00:16:56.519 We stuck that marker around back, nobody will 00:16:56.519 --> 00:16:58.960 ever see it. Right. Yeah, it's an interesting 00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:01.279 spot. I don't know exactly why that location 00:17:01.279 --> 00:17:04.039 specifically was chosen. And two, I did have 00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:06.279 a little bit of conflicting research about where 00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:08.099 the camp was actually sitting at. It looks like 00:17:08.099 --> 00:17:09.819 it may mean, in my opinion, at least, that it 00:17:09.819 --> 00:17:11.759 was actually sitting a little more closer to 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:13.619 Elmwood Cemetery when I was comparing the maps. 00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:16.160 But I don't know. I wasn't there. And a neat 00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:18.400 little side story there, too, actually. That 00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:22.079 historical marker was dedicated in 1968, I believe. 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:26.140 I'll cut my head. If you know Detroit, there 00:17:26.140 --> 00:17:30.319 was a significant event in 1967. So this historical 00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:33.220 marker was actually a part of rebuilding that 00:17:33.220 --> 00:17:35.980 black community in Detroit, rebuilding everyone 00:17:35.980 --> 00:17:39.440 coming back together as a community. The governor 00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:42.420 was there, leaders of the NAACP were there. So 00:17:42.420 --> 00:17:44.619 this was kind of a way to look back at our history 00:17:44.619 --> 00:17:47.680 and see how far we have come and honor that history 00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:52.170 in a way. Yeah, I'm seeing online that Camp Ward 00:17:52.170 --> 00:17:55.289 was on Detroit's east side where the Black Bottom 00:17:55.289 --> 00:17:59.089 neighborhood once stood, which got raised for 00:17:59.089 --> 00:18:02.569 some urban development plan. And there is some 00:18:02.569 --> 00:18:05.450 archaeological work going on trying to find more 00:18:05.450 --> 00:18:07.829 about the remnants of the camp and that sort 00:18:07.829 --> 00:18:10.710 of thing. So again, we lose our history. That's 00:18:10.710 --> 00:18:13.789 why books like First Michigan Colored Regiment, 00:18:14.190 --> 00:18:16.930 Free Men Who Fought Slavery, is so important. 00:18:18.059 --> 00:18:21.940 Maurice, the men ended up fighting out of state 00:18:21.940 --> 00:18:24.519 at a couple of different battles. Can you tell 00:18:24.519 --> 00:18:27.640 us about that a little more specifically? Sure. 00:18:28.059 --> 00:18:29.819 They fought a variety of different engagements 00:18:29.819 --> 00:18:33.299 in the South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida area. 00:18:33.880 --> 00:18:35.440 And before I dive into that, I'd like to say, 00:18:35.460 --> 00:18:37.339 like I used to say a little earlier, is these 00:18:37.339 --> 00:18:39.180 men were fighting for a different cause than 00:18:39.180 --> 00:18:42.160 all of the rest of the Army. The African American 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:46.230 men in the Army were fighting for freedom. And 00:18:46.230 --> 00:18:47.730 that, I mean, that's, I mean, no doubt about 00:18:47.730 --> 00:18:49.529 it. That's what these guys are fighting for. 00:18:49.809 --> 00:18:51.829 Of course they want to preserve the union and 00:18:51.829 --> 00:18:54.049 there's a whole, right? But these men were fighting 00:18:54.049 --> 00:18:56.390 for freedom and liberty. They're fighting to, 00:18:56.470 --> 00:18:57.809 and we said that we're fighting to free other 00:18:57.809 --> 00:19:00.529 people, right? But let's, let's look closer into 00:19:00.529 --> 00:19:03.769 that as an 18 year old who made their way out 00:19:03.769 --> 00:19:06.569 of slavery and up to a free state. They're going 00:19:06.569 --> 00:19:09.170 back and why are they joining? To free their 00:19:09.170 --> 00:19:12.190 mom. to free their dad, their girlfriend, their 00:19:12.190 --> 00:19:15.349 best friends who are still left in slavery. That's 00:19:15.349 --> 00:19:17.069 what these guys are fighting for. That's what 00:19:17.069 --> 00:19:19.869 they're thinking about. They're not thinking 00:19:19.869 --> 00:19:21.890 about American government. That's right. That's 00:19:21.890 --> 00:19:25.109 a powerful way to look at it. And I suspect maybe 00:19:25.109 --> 00:19:29.069 in your reviewing letters and research, there 00:19:29.069 --> 00:19:32.509 was a certain element of respect involved in 00:19:32.509 --> 00:19:36.529 what they were doing. They were earning the respect 00:19:36.529 --> 00:19:39.599 that they were entitled to. Were you able to 00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:42.259 find personal letters or journals or anything 00:19:42.259 --> 00:19:46.440 of that sort? Absolutely. There was a couple 00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:49.000 good letters that came across to me, a collection. 00:19:49.859 --> 00:19:52.599 Sharon, if I'm pronouncing that right, came across 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:55.420 a great collection. I'm blanking on his name 00:19:55.420 --> 00:19:58.660 of one African -American soldier who was in the 00:19:58.660 --> 00:20:01.400 ranks. And then there was another collection 00:20:01.400 --> 00:20:06.130 by Sherry. I'm like, I feel so bad. Sherry, she 00:20:06.130 --> 00:20:08.130 came across the collection and transcribed some 00:20:08.130 --> 00:20:10.660 another. soldiers letters, I believe it was Alonzo 00:20:10.660 --> 00:20:12.700 Reed. But then there were a couple officers. 00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:16.039 And one of my favorites was a surgeon, he was 00:20:16.039 --> 00:20:20.319 a white surgeon, younger guy. And he had a collection 00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:22.259 of letters he was writing back and forth to his 00:20:22.259 --> 00:20:24.519 wife. And which made this even better was he 00:20:24.519 --> 00:20:26.740 was writing back and forth to his wife. And he 00:20:26.740 --> 00:20:28.440 was knowledgeable, you know, he had to read and 00:20:28.440 --> 00:20:31.440 write very well. And he shared every bit of his 00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:34.140 opinions. And what I mean by that too, is you 00:20:34.140 --> 00:20:36.160 can think of a friend of yours who gets too into 00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:38.059 politics and you ask one question and they're 00:20:38.029 --> 00:20:40.910 giving you a whole big load of how they feel. 00:20:41.269 --> 00:20:43.250 That was this guy. He gave you a big load of 00:20:43.250 --> 00:20:45.430 how he felt, but that was perfect. Cause you're 00:20:45.430 --> 00:20:48.869 seeing right into how he feels. And at times 00:20:48.869 --> 00:20:51.069 at first, honestly, he didn't like black men. 00:20:51.250 --> 00:20:54.450 It seemed that he was very, um, new to it. I 00:20:54.450 --> 00:20:55.609 would say he didn't like them. I shall back that 00:20:55.609 --> 00:20:58.529 up. He was very new to it. It was fun. They hadn't 00:20:58.529 --> 00:21:00.549 been around a very many, many black men. So when 00:21:00.549 --> 00:21:03.670 he got um into the into the regiment he got he 00:21:03.670 --> 00:21:05.529 referred to them to the hard r the n word you 00:21:05.529 --> 00:21:08.509 know he he didn't know these guys and through 00:21:08.509 --> 00:21:10.369 his time through the lives back and forth you 00:21:10.369 --> 00:21:12.730 see his opinion changes and it changes quickly 00:21:12.730 --> 00:21:15.670 you know calling them brothers and and mad at 00:21:15.670 --> 00:21:17.990 the white men who he interacted with who bashed 00:21:17.990 --> 00:21:20.089 his men you know treated them differently you 00:21:20.089 --> 00:21:22.890 know he he was that was a gold knife well yeah 00:21:22.890 --> 00:21:24.789 that i was just gonna say that was the term i 00:21:24.789 --> 00:21:27.920 was gonna use for historian writing those Personal 00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:31.140 letters are just gold because they give you a 00:21:31.140 --> 00:21:34.240 context you otherwise wouldn't have. But I interrupted 00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:36.900 you. They get down to South Carolina, which is 00:21:36.900 --> 00:21:39.640 a long way from Detroit, Georgia, and Florida. 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:43.160 Talk about those battles as well. Yeah, so their 00:21:43.160 --> 00:21:46.720 first battle is going to be down the road from 00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:50.660 Olustee, Florida, near Jacksonville, in a place 00:21:50.660 --> 00:21:53.859 called, oh man, why do I? I usually know these 00:21:53.859 --> 00:21:56.599 names so well, and I'm blanking on the name of 00:21:56.599 --> 00:22:00.119 it, but it's just Paso Lusti, Florida. And I'm 00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:01.700 sorry, I just can't think of the name of it, 00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:04.160 but it's a small engagement, so to speak anyways. 00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:06.400 So they're down there in Northern Florida and 00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:08.900 they're tearing up railroads and they start to 00:22:08.900 --> 00:22:10.819 get Baldwin, Florida. Thank you. It's between 00:22:10.819 --> 00:22:12.980 Jacksonville and all Lusti, Baldwin, Florida. 00:22:13.400 --> 00:22:15.559 And they're tearing up these railroad tracks 00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:18.940 to try to stop. the Confederate advance and supplies. 00:22:19.539 --> 00:22:21.319 And they began to hear this noise. That noise 00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:23.680 goes louder and louder. But before they know 00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:25.640 it, I've been down to this area. It's thick pine 00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:28.380 trees, national forest woods. Before they know 00:22:28.380 --> 00:22:30.380 it, there's rebel cavalry pouring out of the 00:22:30.380 --> 00:22:34.579 woodwork, attacking them. This regiment is now 00:22:34.579 --> 00:22:36.180 in a little bit of panic, right? They've never 00:22:36.180 --> 00:22:39.720 seen combat, ever. The white officers who are 00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:41.920 leading these men. have never seen their men 00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:44.640 fight. And if anything, they've been told by 00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:46.920 their comrades, have been told by their friends 00:22:46.920 --> 00:22:49.519 at home, these guys are going to drop their guns 00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:51.079 or they're going to run and you're going to die. 00:22:51.160 --> 00:22:53.700 You're a fool for joining this regiment. So they're 00:22:53.700 --> 00:22:59.299 nervous. What happens? The 102nd fixes their 00:22:59.299 --> 00:23:03.180 bayonets, fires a volley into the cavalry and 00:23:03.180 --> 00:23:07.440 easily repels them. And not only do they fire 00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:11.240 a volley, after they fired, everyone's now empty, 00:23:11.460 --> 00:23:13.740 right? Everyone is completely empty. What do 00:23:13.740 --> 00:23:17.420 they decide to do? They charge the cavalry by 00:23:17.420 --> 00:23:20.640 hand and easily repel them off without losing 00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:24.519 one man. And that told these white officers and 00:23:24.519 --> 00:23:26.940 everyone around, these men are here to do business, 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:30.420 I tell people. So that's their first engagement. 00:23:31.319 --> 00:23:33.240 Up to their largest one at the Battle of Honey 00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:37.180 Hill, they see some other small fights back and 00:23:37.180 --> 00:23:40.380 forth in the area. They fight next to the 54th 00:23:40.380 --> 00:23:43.099 and 55th Massachusetts, very famously known for 00:23:43.099 --> 00:23:45.799 the movie Glory. Denzel Washington, Morgan Freeman. 00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:49.180 So they have some engagements in there and potter's 00:23:49.180 --> 00:23:51.940 raid going through, trying to slow down the Confederate 00:23:51.940 --> 00:23:55.200 advance again, make them want to stop fighting 00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:58.359 by messing up these towns a little bit. But their 00:23:58.359 --> 00:24:00.980 largest and most famous battle is the Battle 00:24:00.980 --> 00:24:04.960 of Honey Hill, South Carolina, where the regiment 00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:08.420 helps to return three cannons back from the battlefield. 00:24:08.599 --> 00:24:11.440 Union guns that had been decimated, the men had 00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:14.319 been. So they rush up, they grab the cannons. 00:24:14.829 --> 00:24:17.829 and they wheel them back while under fire. And 00:24:17.829 --> 00:24:19.329 what I mean by that is these men are literally 00:24:19.329 --> 00:24:21.490 getting shot in the arm and in the leg while 00:24:21.490 --> 00:24:24.609 moving these guns in the woods, mind you, as 00:24:24.609 --> 00:24:28.569 well. And for that, Orson W. Bennett, who led 00:24:28.569 --> 00:24:31.349 that charge, was awarded the Medal of Honor. 00:24:31.970 --> 00:24:35.460 Now, Orson W. Bennett was a white man. who was 00:24:35.460 --> 00:24:37.720 awarded the Medal of Honor. None of the Black 00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:40.279 soldiers were awarded the Medal of Honor for 00:24:40.279 --> 00:24:42.119 that action. However, I think, you know, no one 00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:44.140 discredits, you know, the work that he did to 00:24:44.140 --> 00:24:47.220 be able to lead that charge. Well, that's interesting. 00:24:47.619 --> 00:24:52.559 And there's a long history of African -American 00:24:53.419 --> 00:24:56.559 soldiers not getting recognized for doing more 00:24:56.559 --> 00:25:02.200 than others in battle all the way up to most 00:25:02.200 --> 00:25:04.799 recently the name that comes to my mind is Paris 00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:08.240 Davis in Vietnam whose Medal of Honor package 00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:11.180 kept getting lost four or five times before it 00:25:11.180 --> 00:25:14.220 finally enough people got behind it and proved 00:25:14.220 --> 00:25:18.359 it up and and he got it so very interesting that 00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:23.190 Orson Bennett got the recognition. When you got 00:25:23.190 --> 00:25:28.529 done researching this and writing this, what's 00:25:28.529 --> 00:25:33.930 your hope or expectation for capturing this history? 00:25:35.710 --> 00:25:38.069 My hope is that it's not lost, and that's kind 00:25:38.069 --> 00:25:40.269 of what it had been for a period of time, really, 00:25:40.349 --> 00:25:42.549 until the 80s, when these African -American living 00:25:42.549 --> 00:25:44.329 historians got involved in Lansing and wanted 00:25:44.329 --> 00:25:48.490 to share this history. The story gets told. When 00:25:48.490 --> 00:25:51.720 I think about that as a young man who is a descendant 00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:54.819 of slaves from Georgia. I think about how all 00:25:54.819 --> 00:25:57.259 of those young men, including older men, right, 00:25:57.539 --> 00:25:59.799 joined this. I mean, they gave up their freedom. 00:25:59.940 --> 00:26:02.599 I mean, they were literally just free. I mean, 00:26:02.680 --> 00:26:05.519 think if you're born into a prison and then you 00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:07.460 get out of that prison and the first thing you 00:26:07.460 --> 00:26:09.779 do is go back and potentially be put back in 00:26:09.779 --> 00:26:12.819 that prison. Let's get some scary stuff. and 00:26:12.819 --> 00:26:14.980 all of these guys who put their freedom on the 00:26:14.980 --> 00:26:16.839 line and their life on the line and then sacrifice 00:26:16.839 --> 00:26:20.420 their life, honestly as well, for freedom, to 00:26:20.420 --> 00:26:22.859 have what we have today. I mean, I think, you 00:26:22.859 --> 00:26:25.160 know, sometimes we don't need to always focus 00:26:25.160 --> 00:26:26.920 on the past. It's important that we move forward 00:26:26.920 --> 00:26:29.519 as a country and move forward as a society. But 00:26:29.519 --> 00:26:32.359 sometimes we need to think back about how we 00:26:32.359 --> 00:26:34.119 have these, why we have these freedoms. I mean, 00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:36.740 I go to the store, I can get a McDonald's hamburger. 00:26:36.900 --> 00:26:38.619 I don't know, I go to Meyer. I mean, just I can 00:26:38.619 --> 00:26:41.769 live my regular day life. But how did I earn 00:26:41.769 --> 00:26:45.930 that, in a way? How did we get to that point? 00:26:46.430 --> 00:26:49.390 And without the sacrifices of our soldiers from 00:26:49.390 --> 00:26:52.390 all of these wars, I wouldn't be able to do that. 00:26:52.930 --> 00:26:55.710 And that's where I think it is so important that 00:26:55.710 --> 00:26:57.210 we think about it. That's why I'm honored to 00:26:57.210 --> 00:27:01.170 have a group of 40 young students, all high school 00:27:01.170 --> 00:27:03.029 and college students with me who teach this history 00:27:03.029 --> 00:27:06.049 in our living history group. And we want to be 00:27:06.049 --> 00:27:09.349 able to share not only to the general public, 00:27:09.470 --> 00:27:11.910 but to our fellow brothers and sisters that we 00:27:11.910 --> 00:27:15.049 need to cherish this history. So that's my biggest 00:27:15.049 --> 00:27:17.450 hope, that it will continue to be cherished, 00:27:17.650 --> 00:27:20.970 shared, and people learn that African -American 00:27:20.970 --> 00:27:23.359 men were the victors of the Civil War, not the 00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:25.380 victims. I mean, these guys took up arms and 00:27:25.380 --> 00:27:28.420 they did their fair share. No, that's a great 00:27:28.420 --> 00:27:32.039 message we should learn from this history and 00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:35.920 apply it today. Maurice Imhoff, I really appreciate 00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:39.200 you taking some time today to talk about this 00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:42.119 history, to talk about the First Michigan Colored 00:27:42.119 --> 00:27:46.460 Regiment, free men who fought slavery, and congratulate 00:27:46.460 --> 00:27:49.480 you on getting this out and keep up the good 00:27:49.480 --> 00:27:52.410 work. Well, thank you so much. I never intended 00:27:52.410 --> 00:27:55.049 really on having a publication, but you know, 00:27:55.049 --> 00:27:57.089 it came to me and I had everything sitting in 00:27:57.089 --> 00:27:59.730 a pile and it was the time is now and I'm really 00:27:59.730 --> 00:28:02.549 happy with how it came out. Excellent. Thanks. 00:28:03.450 --> 00:28:06.150 The Congressional Medal of Honor Society Convention 00:28:06.150 --> 00:28:09.390 will be held in Detroit from September 29th to 00:28:09.390 --> 00:28:13.049 October 3rd, 2026, featuring the largest gathering 00:28:13.049 --> 00:28:16.609 of a living Medal of Honor recipients. This convention 00:28:16.609 --> 00:28:20.279 brings together many of the 60 living recipients 00:28:20.279 --> 00:28:23.940 for a series of public and private events aimed 00:28:23.940 --> 00:28:26.700 at sharing their stories and promoting the values 00:28:26.700 --> 00:28:29.099 of the Medal of Honor such as commitment, integrity, 00:28:29.460 --> 00:28:32.759 courage, sacrifice, citizenship, and patriotism. 00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:37.420 This convention represents a unique opportunity 00:28:37.420 --> 00:28:40.200 for the city to honor its military heroes and 00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:43.799 foster a spirit of patriotism and community engagement. 00:28:44.410 --> 00:28:48.750 You can learn more about the convention at medalofhonoredetroit 00:28:48.750 --> 00:28:52.369 .com. Let me tell you about one of these men, 00:28:53.069 --> 00:28:57.450 Paris Davis. He was born in Cleveland, Ohio. 00:28:58.089 --> 00:29:01.690 He went off ultimately to Southern University 00:29:01.690 --> 00:29:04.829 in Baton Rouge, where he earned an ROTC scholarship, 00:29:05.670 --> 00:29:09.009 one of the first in his family to go to college 00:29:09.009 --> 00:29:14.640 and graduate. He went into The Army became an 00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:19.799 airborne and ranger during his early years. He 00:29:19.799 --> 00:29:23.519 qualified for special forces. He went to Vietnam 00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:30.000 in June of 1965 and in a horrendous battle was 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:32.799 wounded early in the fight but refused to leave 00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:37.019 and be evacuated. repeatedly crossed open ground 00:29:37.019 --> 00:29:39.559 under heavy enemy fire to rescue wounded comrades, 00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:42.619 including dragging his team sergeant across the 00:29:42.619 --> 00:29:46.200 field, while the air around them erupted in enemy 00:29:46.200 --> 00:29:50.019 rounds. He coordinated fire support. He even 00:29:50.019 --> 00:29:53.059 refused morphine so that he'd remain alert and 00:29:53.059 --> 00:29:56.220 could direct the battle. He wasn't going to leave 00:29:56.220 --> 00:29:58.420 until every man, dead or alive, was accounted 00:29:58.420 --> 00:30:01.660 for. As a result of those actions, he received 00:30:01.660 --> 00:30:04.579 the Medal of Honor. However, his story is more 00:30:04.579 --> 00:30:09.140 interesting in that it took about 50, 60 years, 00:30:09.460 --> 00:30:12.099 six decades for the nation to finally recognize 00:30:12.099 --> 00:30:15.480 him. The packages that were submitted for his 00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:19.160 Medal of Honor were quote unquote misplaced or 00:30:19.160 --> 00:30:22.160 quote lost close quote, or was it because he 00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:26.240 was an African American? Finally, President Joe 00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:30.569 Biden in March of 2023, awarded him the Medal 00:30:30.569 --> 00:30:34.109 of Honor in a White House ceremony where his 00:30:34.109 --> 00:30:37.750 due was recognized. You can learn more by going 00:30:37.750 --> 00:30:41.089 to Congressional Medal of Honor Society's site, 00:30:41.430 --> 00:30:45.829 cmohs .org, and remember to visit and support 00:30:45.829 --> 00:30:59.119 medalofhonoredetroit .com. They're experts in 00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:01.119 handling cases before the U .S. Court of Appeals 00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:03.740 for Veterans Claims. Their number again, 1 -800 00:31:03.740 --> 00:31:08.019 -693 -4800. Military veterans touch everyone's 00:31:08.019 --> 00:31:09.980 life. I'm guessing right now you're thinking 00:31:09.980 --> 00:31:13.799 of a veteran, a close friend, relative. Maybe 00:31:13.799 --> 00:31:16.539 it's you. Even the toughest of us sometimes need 00:31:16.539 --> 00:31:18.980 help but don't know where to turn for support. 00:31:19.579 --> 00:31:21.279 You don't need special training to help a veteran 00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:23.660 in your life. We can all help someone going through 00:31:23.660 --> 00:31:26.309 a difficult time. Learn how you can be there 00:31:26.309 --> 00:31:29.609 for veterans. Visit veteranscrisisline .net. 00:31:30.289 --> 00:31:33.069 Veteranscrisisline .net. A message from the U 00:31:33.069 --> 00:31:36.849 .S. Department of Veterans Affairs. We want to 00:31:36.849 --> 00:31:40.890 welcome to Veterans Radio today an award -winning 00:31:40.890 --> 00:31:44.250 author who writes a lot in the military space 00:31:44.250 --> 00:31:47.769 and history space, Mark Berry. Mark, welcome 00:31:47.769 --> 00:31:50.650 to Veterans Radio. Thank you very much for having 00:31:50.650 --> 00:31:52.049 me, Jim. It's quite an honor and a pleasure. 00:31:52.210 --> 00:31:54.230 Thank you. Well, as I've read about you, I know 00:31:54.230 --> 00:31:57.230 you were a New York guy, and you were upstate 00:31:57.230 --> 00:31:59.390 New York writing a lot of local history books, 00:31:59.390 --> 00:32:02.930 and one thing leads to another, and you find 00:32:02.930 --> 00:32:05.710 yourself in Florida, and now you're writing about 00:32:05.710 --> 00:32:08.089 some Florida military history we want to talk 00:32:08.089 --> 00:32:12.289 about. I gotta admit, when I read this article, 00:32:12.309 --> 00:32:15.289 I said, I never heard of this, and it's the Battle 00:32:15.289 --> 00:32:18.809 of Fort Myers, slaves fighting for their freedom. 00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:22.339 That's correct. And I have to confess, Jim, until 00:32:22.339 --> 00:32:24.420 I moved to Florida myself, I didn't know about 00:32:24.420 --> 00:32:26.460 the Battle of Fort Myers either. So we're in 00:32:26.460 --> 00:32:28.819 the same pool. Yeah, and that's why we're doing 00:32:28.819 --> 00:32:31.359 this is because I think there's so much lost 00:32:31.359 --> 00:32:37.079 history, particularly history about how African 00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:40.859 Americans, Hispanic Americans, Japanese Americans, 00:32:40.940 --> 00:32:44.119 and all the other groups you might think of to 00:32:44.119 --> 00:32:48.350 categorize have fought for this country. But 00:32:48.350 --> 00:32:51.789 we teach so little history, those stories don't 00:32:51.789 --> 00:32:54.890 get told in high school or even college for that 00:32:54.890 --> 00:32:57.269 matter. So that's why this is important in my 00:32:57.269 --> 00:33:00.569 mind. Do you agree? Those things get lost in 00:33:00.569 --> 00:33:02.990 the shuffle, this is true. But on the other hand, 00:33:03.210 --> 00:33:05.490 in the defense of those of us who are ignorant 00:33:05.490 --> 00:33:08.769 about this battle, the big data has got all the 00:33:08.769 --> 00:33:10.910 publicity. And most people don't realize that 00:33:10.910 --> 00:33:13.170 Florida was important in the Civil War because 00:33:13.170 --> 00:33:16.390 it was literally the breadbasket for the Confederacy. 00:33:16.869 --> 00:33:19.130 And that's why the Union troops wandered on down 00:33:19.130 --> 00:33:22.230 here because... They wanted to stop all the beef 00:33:22.230 --> 00:33:24.289 and grains and everything else is coming from 00:33:24.289 --> 00:33:26.829 the South to supply the Confederate Army. That 00:33:26.829 --> 00:33:28.250 was the only way they were going to defeat the 00:33:28.250 --> 00:33:30.809 Confederate Army. So the Union made their presence 00:33:30.809 --> 00:33:33.069 known, and that's how the battle started. Well, 00:33:33.230 --> 00:33:38.430 this is 19, I'm sorry, 1865, right? February 00:33:38.430 --> 00:33:43.869 2nd, 1865 was the battle itself. Put in some 00:33:43.869 --> 00:33:49.069 context what this fort was. Was it a Confederate 00:33:49.069 --> 00:33:51.309 fort that the Union took over? A Union fort? 00:33:51.390 --> 00:33:55.329 Tell us about it. Well, it was a very small establishment 00:33:55.329 --> 00:33:58.329 and at the time of the battle, it was very lightly 00:33:58.329 --> 00:34:01.289 staffed. There was only about 250 men there. 00:34:01.410 --> 00:34:03.670 In fact, they had just returned on the day of 00:34:03.670 --> 00:34:05.069 the battle. They had just returned a couple of 00:34:05.069 --> 00:34:06.990 days earlier from another scramble elsewhere. 00:34:07.589 --> 00:34:11.369 A skirmish, I should say. and those 250 men, 00:34:11.590 --> 00:34:13.730 most of them were exhausted. They only had about 00:34:13.730 --> 00:34:16.849 75 muskets between them, and even then about 00:34:16.849 --> 00:34:19.789 30 rounds of ammo per musket. So it was not what 00:34:19.789 --> 00:34:22.710 you'd call the best defended fortress controlled, 00:34:22.710 --> 00:34:25.230 so to speak, by the Uyghurs. The Confederates, 00:34:25.230 --> 00:34:27.849 on the other hand, knew what the Union was there 00:34:27.849 --> 00:34:30.130 for. They wanted to protect their food chain 00:34:30.130 --> 00:34:33.670 further north to the main Confederate army. They 00:34:33.670 --> 00:34:35.650 had about three companies. They had about 400 00:34:35.650 --> 00:34:40.309 men. They had a big 12 -pound piece of artillery. 00:34:40.949 --> 00:34:42.769 They had it in their head that they were going 00:34:42.769 --> 00:34:45.630 to take this so -called Union -controlled fort 00:34:45.630 --> 00:34:49.789 away from the Union. They surprised a couple 00:34:49.789 --> 00:34:51.929 of the African -American troops, as it turned 00:34:51.929 --> 00:34:54.269 out, who were outside of the walls of the fort 00:34:54.269 --> 00:34:57.769 during their laundry. Took them prisoner fired 00:34:57.769 --> 00:35:01.250 a few shots and those shots miraculously Warned 00:35:01.250 --> 00:35:04.349 the folks inside the fort and that began what 00:35:04.349 --> 00:35:06.289 would turn out to be an 11 -hour battle between 00:35:06.289 --> 00:35:09.130 the Confederacy and the Union Well, and let's 00:35:09.130 --> 00:35:11.329 frame this a little bit more for those who aren't 00:35:11.329 --> 00:35:14.750 up on their Civil War history African Americans 00:35:14.750 --> 00:35:17.829 or black troops were fighting as part of the 00:35:17.829 --> 00:35:22.250 United States colored troops usct and that term 00:35:22.250 --> 00:35:25.130 sounds funny today but can you put some context 00:35:25.130 --> 00:35:29.610 around it well the usct turned out to be very 00:35:29.610 --> 00:35:32.030 very significant as you and i were talking earlier 00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:34.880 African Americans ended up, by the end of the 00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:38.139 war, to be about 10 % of the total fighting force 00:35:38.139 --> 00:35:40.860 of the Union, somewhere in the vicinity of 180 00:35:40.860 --> 00:35:46.179 ,000 to 200 ,000 troops. And 37 ,000 African 00:35:46.179 --> 00:35:48.760 Americans ended up dying in the course of the 00:35:48.760 --> 00:35:51.079 Civil War because of their battle wounds and 00:35:51.079 --> 00:35:54.539 being killed in battle. So there was a long, 00:35:54.639 --> 00:35:56.480 slow process for them. You have to put it in 00:35:56.480 --> 00:35:59.980 perspective. The battle was 1865. It was about 00:35:59.980 --> 00:36:03.119 two years earlier in January. 1863 that Lincoln. 00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:07.440 had written and published and passed the Emancipation 00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:09.780 Proclamation. But that didn't mean that black 00:36:09.780 --> 00:36:12.420 troops were automatically integrated into the 00:36:12.420 --> 00:36:16.880 Union Army. In fact, they experienced a tremendous 00:36:16.880 --> 00:36:20.119 resistance wherever they went. Often segregated, 00:36:20.420 --> 00:36:23.920 even so -called all -black companies were commanded 00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:27.760 by a white officer. And so it was much like Jackie 00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:29.960 Robinson was decades later, hundreds of years 00:36:29.960 --> 00:36:33.380 later, when he got into the baseball. realize 00:36:33.380 --> 00:36:35.940 that he wasn't a hero. He was treated more like 00:36:35.940 --> 00:36:38.539 a goat and not the greatest of all time, obviously, 00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:40.699 and discriminated against by some of his own 00:36:40.699 --> 00:36:45.340 teammates. The same happened with the USCT. So 00:36:45.340 --> 00:36:47.400 even though they fought with valor and courage, 00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:50.780 places like Port Hudson in Louisiana, Fort Wagner 00:36:50.780 --> 00:36:53.599 in South Carolina, several places in Virginia, 00:36:53.900 --> 00:36:58.960 including Spotsylvania. They were discriminated 00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:01.219 against, it was a very prejudiced atmosphere, 00:37:02.019 --> 00:37:04.960 and yet historians today realize that they were 00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:08.059 very tough brunts, the USCT, they were very courageous, 00:37:08.579 --> 00:37:11.079 tough as nails, extremely aggressive, and very 00:37:11.079 --> 00:37:13.679 united and cohesive group. And wherever they 00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:16.219 fought, they did a great job, they did an absolutely 00:37:16.219 --> 00:37:19.000 great job. Well, nothing brings people together 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:23.119 more than being in the foxhole together. The 00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:26.480 colored troops that were at Fort Myers were kind 00:37:26.480 --> 00:37:30.119 of critical to this battle, weren't they? They 00:37:30.119 --> 00:37:33.400 represented the bulk of the people that were 00:37:33.400 --> 00:37:35.579 there, the soldiers that were there, obviously. 00:37:36.619 --> 00:37:39.619 And they were credited with winning the battle, 00:37:39.719 --> 00:37:43.179 in fact. The as a result of the black troops 00:37:43.179 --> 00:37:45.119 being there, some of the several of them were 00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:49.260 cited for bravery. And they stunned the Confederacy, 00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:51.739 the Confederacy outnumbered them easily. But 00:37:51.739 --> 00:37:54.719 the the white captain, a guy named James Doyle 00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:57.599 in the fort. was told to surrender because he 00:37:57.599 --> 00:37:59.699 was outnumbered and the Confederates had a big 00:37:59.699 --> 00:38:02.000 12 pound piece of artillery. The Union had a 00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:04.699 couple of six pounds, that was it. And his response 00:38:04.699 --> 00:38:08.079 was, I respectfully decline. And he and his African 00:38:08.079 --> 00:38:10.860 -American counterparts decided to slug it out. 00:38:11.260 --> 00:38:13.800 And after 11 hours, the rebels simply called 00:38:13.800 --> 00:38:16.639 it quits. They did it that night. 40 Confederates 00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:20.179 lay dead on about half a dozen Union casualties, 00:38:20.219 --> 00:38:22.480 not much. Of course, they had the fort to protect 00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:24.900 them, but they had some very, very aggressive 00:38:24.900 --> 00:38:27.840 Black soldiers that worked in and outside the 00:38:27.840 --> 00:38:30.360 fort and stunned the hell out of these Confederates, 00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:31.880 and that's why the Confederates ended up losing 00:38:31.880 --> 00:38:36.480 the Battle of Fort Myers. And did this sort of 00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:41.900 end up being a line where, okay, we're not getting 00:38:41.900 --> 00:38:46.400 back this territory and otherwise put a big dent, 00:38:46.579 --> 00:38:49.579 I suppose, in the pride of the Confederacy? Well, 00:38:49.659 --> 00:38:51.719 you put your finger on one of the greatest ironies 00:38:51.719 --> 00:38:54.039 of the Battle of Fort Myers. Not only was it 00:38:54.039 --> 00:38:57.320 little known and quickly forgotten, but in two 00:38:57.320 --> 00:38:59.139 months, in less than two months, actually a month 00:38:59.139 --> 00:39:02.320 later, about that to the battle, both sides in 00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:06.079 the Civil War abandoned the fort. It wasn't important 00:39:06.079 --> 00:39:08.260 anymore. And one of the reasons was, even at 00:39:08.260 --> 00:39:10.980 the time of the Battle of Fort Myers, the Confederacy 00:39:10.980 --> 00:39:13.519 knew they were losing the war. They saw the writing 00:39:13.519 --> 00:39:16.360 on the wall. A month later, it became very clear, 00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:19.159 black and white, no pun intended. And of course, 00:39:19.500 --> 00:39:21.900 General Lee surrendered the Confederacy April 00:39:21.900 --> 00:39:26.280 9th, 1865, less about two months after the Battle 00:39:26.280 --> 00:39:29.980 of Fort Myers. So a month later, the battle that 00:39:29.980 --> 00:39:33.199 lasted 11 hours, it cost that many Confederate 00:39:33.199 --> 00:39:36.550 troops. and they put the USCT on the map, so 00:39:36.550 --> 00:39:38.570 to speak, as far as historians are concerned, 00:39:40.090 --> 00:39:42.750 all went for nothing because both sides said, 00:39:42.750 --> 00:39:45.070 we don't need this fort anymore. The breadbasket 00:39:45.070 --> 00:39:47.090 for the Confederacy had pretty well dried up 00:39:47.090 --> 00:39:50.409 anyway, and the war was just off -skip and a 00:39:50.409 --> 00:39:53.190 jump from being all over. Well, you, in your 00:39:53.190 --> 00:39:56.710 article on this little -known topic, quoted the 00:39:56.710 --> 00:39:59.070 New York Times that reported the former slaves, 00:39:59.070 --> 00:40:01.710 quote, could hardly be restrained, close quote. 00:40:01.989 --> 00:40:05.440 They seemed totally unconscious of danger and 00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:08.420 constantly shouted to each other to get them, 00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:10.760 close quote, meaning the rebels. I hate to use 00:40:10.760 --> 00:40:13.320 the word zealous because that's got a broad connotation 00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:16.699 these days. But these guys were zealous in fulfilling 00:40:16.699 --> 00:40:18.480 their duties. And of course, some of it can be 00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:20.719 attributed to the fact that they felt they had 00:40:20.719 --> 00:40:23.179 to work twice as hard and be twice as effective 00:40:23.179 --> 00:40:26.349 as their white counterparts. But I think there 00:40:26.349 --> 00:40:28.550 was more than that. And I'm probably putting 00:40:28.550 --> 00:40:31.389 thoughts and maybe even words into these African 00:40:31.389 --> 00:40:34.429 -American soldiers' mouths and minds. But I think 00:40:34.429 --> 00:40:36.630 they knew they were under the gun, so to speak. 00:40:36.889 --> 00:40:40.250 I think they knew that they had everything at 00:40:40.250 --> 00:40:42.809 stake. They had a couple years ago been told 00:40:42.809 --> 00:40:46.130 by their president that they were all free. Now 00:40:46.130 --> 00:40:48.570 they had to fight for their freedom. And so they 00:40:48.570 --> 00:40:51.730 fought with gallantry. They fought with a fervor 00:40:51.730 --> 00:40:54.760 and with a fever that the white soldiers during 00:40:54.760 --> 00:40:57.659 the Civil War did not have, because they were 00:40:57.659 --> 00:41:00.800 not fighting to free themselves. These troops, 00:41:01.099 --> 00:41:04.139 particularly those in the Fort Myers battle, 00:41:04.199 --> 00:41:07.500 I think they knew perfectly well that if they 00:41:07.500 --> 00:41:10.059 had surrendered to the Confederates, they would 00:41:10.059 --> 00:41:12.920 go back to their former lives as slaves. And 00:41:12.920 --> 00:41:15.239 many of those Blacks in the Fort were former 00:41:15.239 --> 00:41:17.760 slaves, and they did not want to go back. And 00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:19.480 they were prepared to put their life on the line 00:41:19.480 --> 00:41:21.780 to make sure they didn't go back. We're talking 00:41:21.780 --> 00:41:25.539 to Mark Barry who's a author, writes a lot of 00:41:25.539 --> 00:41:30.519 in the area of military and historical topics. 00:41:31.019 --> 00:41:32.900 One of the things I want to put context on because 00:41:32.900 --> 00:41:35.619 I think again it's easy to kind of forget this 00:41:35.619 --> 00:41:38.960 stuff is that as you said there were up to 200 00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:43.340 ,000 African -American troops in the Civil War. 00:41:43.659 --> 00:41:46.780 Today uh... in the active army there's about 00:41:46.780 --> 00:41:49.920 ninety five thousand african -americans and they 00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:52.739 make up twenty percent of the active duty force 00:41:52.739 --> 00:41:55.360 or but back in the civil war because so many 00:41:55.360 --> 00:41:57.820 more men were involved they made up ten percent 00:41:57.820 --> 00:42:01.840 of the army but the sheer number uh... is somewhat 00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:05.500 staggering and easy to lose sight of when you're 00:42:05.500 --> 00:42:08.969 not paying attention to the history Over the 00:42:08.969 --> 00:42:10.969 decades, of course, the numbers have changed, 00:42:11.130 --> 00:42:13.050 so those percentages are kind of out of whack 00:42:13.050 --> 00:42:16.530 now compared to what they were back then. And 00:42:16.530 --> 00:42:18.289 most people don't even know that, so thanks for 00:42:18.289 --> 00:42:20.690 bringing it up, Jim. But something else that 00:42:20.690 --> 00:42:22.489 a lot of people don't know is that the Black 00:42:22.489 --> 00:42:26.969 soldiers performed above and beyond what their 00:42:26.969 --> 00:42:30.630 white counterparts did often. For example, right 00:42:30.630 --> 00:42:33.090 now, if you go back and look at the record, as 00:42:33.090 --> 00:42:36.539 a result of the war, there were 14 Black soldiers 00:42:36.539 --> 00:42:39.400 that received medals of honor for valor in such 00:42:39.400 --> 00:42:41.639 places as the Battle of New Market Heights in 00:42:41.639 --> 00:42:46.659 Virginia and elsewhere. In total, the Black troops 00:42:46.659 --> 00:42:52.599 of the USCT were recognized for exceptional bravery 00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:57.320 in 39 separate but nevertheless major engagements 00:42:57.320 --> 00:43:01.460 in the Civil War. This is an outstanding disproportionate 00:43:01.460 --> 00:43:04.519 performance by African -American military men 00:43:04.679 --> 00:43:07.199 that proves their bravery, proves their courage, 00:43:07.380 --> 00:43:10.800 and prove their zeal in fighting not just for 00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:13.980 our country's survival, but their own survival 00:43:13.980 --> 00:43:15.820 and their own freedom. That's an outstanding 00:43:15.820 --> 00:43:18.480 record for any single group in the military, 00:43:18.519 --> 00:43:21.340 in my opinion. Absolutely. One of the things, 00:43:21.539 --> 00:43:25.519 you know, the Battle of Fort Myers is, as we've 00:43:25.519 --> 00:43:27.599 talked about, kind of a significant event today 00:43:27.599 --> 00:43:31.500 if Fort Myers is a thriving area, a lot of people 00:43:31.500 --> 00:43:33.199 live there, but a lot of tourists come through. 00:43:33.460 --> 00:43:37.639 There must be some huge recognition of this battle 00:43:37.639 --> 00:43:43.219 and the role the black companies from the USCT 00:43:43.219 --> 00:43:46.840 played, right? I can bear the sarcasm dripping, 00:43:47.019 --> 00:43:50.050 my friend. No, there isn't. There's just one, 00:43:50.050 --> 00:43:52.369 as I put in that article, one of those ubiquitous 00:43:52.369 --> 00:43:54.610 blue signs with the yellow print, I believe, 00:43:54.989 --> 00:43:57.170 sitting at the mark of the fort. It's hardly 00:43:57.170 --> 00:43:59.789 noticed. It's very rarely mentioned in papers. 00:43:59.829 --> 00:44:02.269 In fact, I think the last time I got some publicity 00:44:02.269 --> 00:44:05.510 is the article that I wrote. And it's too bad. 00:44:06.110 --> 00:44:08.510 Working hard to make sure that it's not forgotten 00:44:08.510 --> 00:44:11.769 as the sons of the American Revolution, particularly, 00:44:11.989 --> 00:44:14.769 excuse me, not just the sons of the American 00:44:14.769 --> 00:44:16.789 Revolution, but the one I'm a member of also, 00:44:17.050 --> 00:44:18.840 the sons of the Union. and veteran of the Civil 00:44:18.840 --> 00:44:22.039 War, they're all history buffs in these organizations. 00:44:22.300 --> 00:44:25.280 And particularly the SUVCW has tried to mark 00:44:25.280 --> 00:44:27.940 that occasion of the Fort Myers battle every 00:44:27.940 --> 00:44:30.699 single year, tried to get out there and perform 00:44:30.699 --> 00:44:33.880 some sort of a ceremony with a color guard. But 00:44:33.880 --> 00:44:36.659 sometimes I think they're swimming upstream because 00:44:36.659 --> 00:44:39.159 we don't teach history in schools like we used 00:44:39.159 --> 00:44:40.880 to. In fact, you might find some public schools 00:44:40.880 --> 00:44:43.480 where history is not even taught at all. uh, 00:44:43.800 --> 00:44:45.880 my own granddaughters, I love them dearly, but 00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:47.900 they came home and I found out pretty quickly, 00:44:48.199 --> 00:44:50.019 they knew more about Harriet Tubman than they 00:44:50.019 --> 00:44:52.719 did about Abraham Lincoln. And so the history 00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:55.440 that is taught is a bit skewered and unfortunately, 00:44:55.440 --> 00:44:58.739 uh, battles like this that are militarily insignificant, 00:44:59.239 --> 00:45:01.719 but in my opinion, historically significant get 00:45:01.719 --> 00:45:04.619 lost in the shuffle. Yeah. And it's particularly 00:45:04.619 --> 00:45:07.219 true for the communities around which they were 00:45:07.219 --> 00:45:10.960 fought in the communities of men who fought in 00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:12.679 them there should be more recognition. Let me 00:45:12.679 --> 00:45:15.699 point out that Mark is the Patriotic instructor 00:45:15.699 --> 00:45:18.599 of the Colonel Robert W. Bernard, Camp Number 00:45:18.599 --> 00:45:21.619 Two of the Department of Florida, Sons of Union 00:45:21.619 --> 00:45:25.059 Veterans of the Civil War in Fort Myers. You 00:45:25.059 --> 00:45:28.719 can't get that on a business card. No, but it's 00:45:28.719 --> 00:45:30.840 a high paying job. I can assure you. I'm sure 00:45:30.840 --> 00:45:34.780 of that. Now I'm being sarcastic. Yeah. So let's 00:45:34.780 --> 00:45:37.039 talk a little bit about what you have written. 00:45:37.639 --> 00:45:40.400 You have a website. Folks can go to Mark Berry. 00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:46.539 and that's barie .com to find these books, which 00:45:46.539 --> 00:45:49.199 are on Amazon, but they all have a little flavor 00:45:49.199 --> 00:45:53.500 of wartime efforts in different zones. Tell us 00:45:53.500 --> 00:45:56.769 about them. Well, I essentially either the elevator 00:45:56.769 --> 00:45:59.670 version of this is I read about love in war so 00:45:59.670 --> 00:46:02.210 I started backwards I started with the Civil 00:46:02.210 --> 00:46:05.170 War because my wife was an expert genealogist 00:46:05.170 --> 00:46:07.010 waltzed into the living room Monday and announced 00:46:07.010 --> 00:46:08.949 that I had an ancestor that fought in the Civil 00:46:08.949 --> 00:46:12.429 War and I got lucky and I found a diary from 00:46:12.429 --> 00:46:15.630 that same regiment the Adirondack regiment And 00:46:15.630 --> 00:46:18.949 my first novel was born. Prior to that, my wife 00:46:18.949 --> 00:46:21.369 and I had collaborated on a couple of local history 00:46:21.369 --> 00:46:24.750 books. I had done a couple of biographies back 00:46:24.750 --> 00:46:26.389 when we lived in upstate New York, right along 00:46:26.389 --> 00:46:28.909 the Canadian border. But when I moved to Florida, 00:46:28.929 --> 00:46:32.110 this is about 11 years ago, I thought I'd never 00:46:32.110 --> 00:46:34.050 write anything again. But that's when she announced 00:46:34.050 --> 00:46:36.750 this ancestor. So I wrote the book, had a lot 00:46:36.750 --> 00:46:38.769 of fun. And I'll warn you, if there's a book 00:46:38.769 --> 00:46:41.150 in your, Jim, if not already, then when you write 00:46:41.150 --> 00:46:43.489 your first book, I hope your loved ones and your 00:46:43.489 --> 00:46:45.590 relatives and your friends and neighbors will 00:46:45.590 --> 00:46:48.489 tell us a wonderful book. I couldn't put it down, 00:46:48.889 --> 00:46:52.889 but you as a first time author are suffering 00:46:52.889 --> 00:46:56.929 from this syndrome called imposter syndrome. 00:46:58.329 --> 00:47:00.929 I felt I was an imposter, but then the darn book 00:47:00.929 --> 00:47:04.050 won a couple of awards. And then my massive ego 00:47:04.050 --> 00:47:06.750 took over. And then after that Civil War book 00:47:06.750 --> 00:47:09.510 came a love story about the Revolutionary War, 00:47:09.630 --> 00:47:12.030 about a nun who leaves the combat and ends up 00:47:12.030 --> 00:47:15.849 spying for George Washington and the War of 1812, 00:47:16.010 --> 00:47:17.889 which is set in the area of where I come from 00:47:17.889 --> 00:47:19.710 in Plattsburgh, New York, right along the border. 00:47:20.130 --> 00:47:22.610 That's about a girl disguised as a boy who ends 00:47:22.610 --> 00:47:24.949 up on the Commodore's flagship during one of 00:47:24.949 --> 00:47:27.050 the most important naval battles of the War of 00:47:27.050 --> 00:47:30.760 1812. After that, I was going to do a book on 00:47:30.760 --> 00:47:33.679 the Spanish -American War. I never got past the 00:47:33.679 --> 00:47:36.880 mysterious explosion of the USS Maine. So the 00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:39.179 entire book is about the mysterious explosion. 00:47:39.300 --> 00:47:42.159 And I'm egotistical enough to tell you that my 00:47:42.159 --> 00:47:44.840 conclusions as to who and what caused that mysterious 00:47:44.840 --> 00:47:47.159 explosion made a couple of headlines in a few 00:47:47.159 --> 00:47:49.860 local newspapers. Had a lot of fun writing that. 00:47:50.360 --> 00:47:53.119 Even though that too was a love story, it's historically 00:47:53.119 --> 00:47:55.659 accurate, extremely accurate. And the most recent 00:47:55.659 --> 00:47:57.659 book published last year is about World War I, 00:47:57.960 --> 00:47:59.940 about a nurse from Newfoundland, Canada. Well, 00:48:00.039 --> 00:48:01.340 back then it wasn't Canada, it was the country 00:48:01.340 --> 00:48:03.519 of Newfoundland who volunteered as a nurse and 00:48:03.519 --> 00:48:06.139 ended up in one of the most grisly, horrifying 00:48:06.139 --> 00:48:08.599 wars in the history of mankind, World War I. 00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:11.179 So it's been a lot of fun. Well, this is an area 00:48:11.179 --> 00:48:16.199 called historical fiction, right? But being accurate 00:48:16.199 --> 00:48:20.059 on the history is... not only part of the challenge, 00:48:20.179 --> 00:48:23.000 but part of the beauty, because this is how you 00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:25.460 get maybe somebody who otherwise wouldn't read 00:48:25.460 --> 00:48:29.239 a dry history book engaged in finding out what 00:48:29.239 --> 00:48:34.980 happened in the Civil War or in Havana or in 00:48:34.980 --> 00:48:39.219 World War I to this nurse. So historical fiction, 00:48:39.599 --> 00:48:43.840 you know, it stays here, I think. Well, you just 00:48:43.840 --> 00:48:45.539 hit the nail on the head and it's taken authors 00:48:45.539 --> 00:48:48.320 and readers a long time to figure that out When 00:48:48.320 --> 00:48:50.679 you write in my case historical fiction But I 00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:52.559 like to call it historical romance because there 00:48:52.559 --> 00:48:56.159 is a the love side of that story your historical 00:48:56.159 --> 00:48:59.860 Narrative must be extremely accurate because 00:48:59.860 --> 00:49:02.199 I sell most of my books in person. I go all over 00:49:02.199 --> 00:49:04.800 Florida I think last year I did 25 speaking gigs 00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:07.860 all over Florida and there's usually one history 00:49:07.860 --> 00:49:10.440 buff in the room And if you've made a mistake, 00:49:10.679 --> 00:49:14.059 they'll correct you very quickly In fact, as 00:49:14.059 --> 00:49:16.599 an aside, I was talking about the Civil War once 00:49:16.599 --> 00:49:18.940 and this little lady got up in the back of the 00:49:18.940 --> 00:49:21.380 room and she said, Sonny, down here we don't 00:49:21.380 --> 00:49:23.539 call it the Civil War, we call it the War of 00:49:23.539 --> 00:49:25.739 Northern Aggression. Well, as we were going through 00:49:25.739 --> 00:49:28.300 this time. discussion today and thinking, okay, 00:49:28.440 --> 00:49:30.719 I think I've just ticked off all the, all the 00:49:30.719 --> 00:49:33.019 listeners south of the Mason Dixon line, but 00:49:33.019 --> 00:49:35.980 they're very serious. And, uh, and, and I've 00:49:35.980 --> 00:49:37.400 made other mistakes. I don't know if that was 00:49:37.400 --> 00:49:39.139 a real mistake, but I can remember it in the 00:49:39.139 --> 00:49:42.039 first time I got my, the first 100 books in my 00:49:42.039 --> 00:49:45.920 civil war novel. And I discovered that in, uh, 00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:48.539 um, whatever page number it was, I talked about 00:49:48.539 --> 00:49:51.719 a famous escape at Libby prison in Virginia. 00:49:52.579 --> 00:49:55.420 And, um, and I talked about how the prisoners 00:49:55.420 --> 00:49:58.820 had. this piece of rubber sheet that they used 00:49:58.820 --> 00:50:02.400 to put air into the tunnel. And then 100 pages 00:50:02.400 --> 00:50:04.480 later, the rubber sheet turned into a plastic 00:50:04.480 --> 00:50:07.599 sheet, which of course, wasn't invented for another 00:50:07.599 --> 00:50:10.320 100 some odd years. And boy, was that pointed 00:50:10.320 --> 00:50:12.119 out pretty quick. And there was a panic call 00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:15.340 to my publisher and make my long story longer, 00:50:15.860 --> 00:50:17.820 even though it's historical romance, even though 00:50:17.820 --> 00:50:20.489 it's historical fiction. every single historical 00:50:20.489 --> 00:50:23.929 fact that can possibly be Googled or chat -upt'd 00:50:23.929 --> 00:50:26.130 or whatever the hell it's called is accurate. 00:50:26.190 --> 00:50:28.750 For example, in the Civil War book, you read 00:50:28.750 --> 00:50:31.530 a section where Lincoln goes to the soldier's 00:50:31.530 --> 00:50:34.650 home and visits prisoners. And except for the 00:50:34.650 --> 00:50:36.750 conversations, which you can take some liberties 00:50:36.750 --> 00:50:38.909 with, he was there. Trust me, he'd been there. 00:50:38.949 --> 00:50:40.690 That's what he did all the time. He visited the 00:50:40.690 --> 00:50:43.329 wounded soldiers. Any historical figure, any 00:50:43.329 --> 00:50:45.719 historical event, in a book, even though it's 00:50:45.719 --> 00:50:47.619 called historical romance or historical fiction, 00:50:48.139 --> 00:50:50.239 must be accurate. I'm very proud to say in all 00:50:50.239 --> 00:50:53.820 five of my historical novels is extremely accurate. 00:50:53.960 --> 00:50:55.820 I would define them if you find a mistake. Now, 00:50:55.860 --> 00:50:57.860 I'll probably live to regret that, but I don't 00:50:57.860 --> 00:51:00.360 think there's even a mistake. Well, it's a genre 00:51:00.360 --> 00:51:03.219 I really enjoy reading. I hope our veteran radio 00:51:03.219 --> 00:51:07.219 listeners will tune into your books. You can 00:51:07.219 --> 00:51:10.260 find them on Amazon. You can find the whole genre 00:51:10.260 --> 00:51:13.699 of historical fiction there as well. And it's 00:51:13.699 --> 00:51:16.719 a great way to get introduced to some of these 00:51:16.719 --> 00:51:19.760 battles and concepts and what was going on back 00:51:19.760 --> 00:51:21.639 then, the history that you were never taught. 00:51:22.279 --> 00:51:27.260 but also wrapped in a way that will make it maybe 00:51:27.260 --> 00:51:29.179 a little more interesting, maybe keep you a little 00:51:29.179 --> 00:51:32.679 more engaged as a historical romance novel. Well, 00:51:32.760 --> 00:51:34.940 I agree with that. And when I go all over and 00:51:34.940 --> 00:51:36.960 speak, I don't talk about my books. I don't know 00:51:36.960 --> 00:51:38.199 why anybody would want to listen to me talk about 00:51:38.199 --> 00:51:40.980 my books. I talk about my research. And nine 00:51:40.980 --> 00:51:43.760 times out of ten, I'm talking about what we've 00:51:43.760 --> 00:51:46.039 been talking about little known historical facts 00:51:46.039 --> 00:51:49.179 and many people find interesting sometimes fascinating 00:51:49.179 --> 00:51:51.219 absolutely fascinating and i'm gonna i don't 00:51:51.219 --> 00:51:52.780 know how much time we got left but jim i'll leave 00:51:52.780 --> 00:51:55.280 you with a real quick story about an african 00:51:55.280 --> 00:51:58.360 -american the african the highest officer in 00:51:58.360 --> 00:52:02.480 the history of the the civil war uh that uh happened 00:52:02.480 --> 00:52:06.079 to be african -american his name was uh alexander 00:52:06.079 --> 00:52:08.860 alexander thomas augustus last name is augusta 00:52:08.860 --> 00:52:12.909 and believe it or not he was a surgeon and uh 00:52:12.909 --> 00:52:16.289 he was his initial acceptance in the army was 00:52:16.289 --> 00:52:18.670 revoked for a couple reasons number one he was 00:52:18.670 --> 00:52:21.530 a black man and number two he had lived for 10 00:52:21.530 --> 00:52:24.610 years in canada which back then was considered 00:52:24.610 --> 00:52:26.369 was British controlled. So he was considered 00:52:26.369 --> 00:52:29.210 a British subject. And so they said, no, you 00:52:29.210 --> 00:52:33.070 can't join the army. Well, he refused that answer. 00:52:33.429 --> 00:52:36.969 He wrote to President Lincoln himself and asked 00:52:36.969 --> 00:52:39.409 that the medical board reverse their decision. 00:52:39.929 --> 00:52:41.889 Lincoln agreed with them. The medical board changed 00:52:41.889 --> 00:52:44.730 their mind. They honored Augusta's initial acceptance. 00:52:45.289 --> 00:52:47.530 They made him a major and the head surgeon in 00:52:47.530 --> 00:52:51.480 the seventh US colored infantry. Years later, 00:52:51.480 --> 00:52:54.619 he would advocate for equal pay for African -American 00:52:54.619 --> 00:52:57.159 soldiers. He wrote a letter of complaint to Senator 00:52:57.159 --> 00:52:59.880 Wilson back then. They raised his salary to the 00:52:59.880 --> 00:53:02.119 appropriate level and all of the other commissioned 00:53:02.119 --> 00:53:04.559 officers, too. And near the end of the war, guess 00:53:04.559 --> 00:53:08.039 what? He was awarded the honorary rank of lieutenant 00:53:08.039 --> 00:53:11.380 colonel and he became the highest black officer 00:53:11.380 --> 00:53:13.800 in the U .S. military at the time. And around 00:53:13.800 --> 00:53:17.380 1865, a president by the name of Lincoln, along 00:53:17.380 --> 00:53:19.880 with his wife, invited him to the White House. 00:53:20.079 --> 00:53:23.940 and he became the first African American ever 00:53:23.940 --> 00:53:27.269 to visit the White House. and the trivia, and 00:53:27.269 --> 00:53:29.230 the story, and I'm sure your listeners will appreciate 00:53:29.230 --> 00:53:31.969 that. No, again, this is why we do this, Mark, 00:53:31.989 --> 00:53:34.849 and we don't want to forget this kind of history. 00:53:35.010 --> 00:53:37.949 It's so important. We appreciate the time that 00:53:37.949 --> 00:53:40.789 you've given us today, Mark Berry. I send folks 00:53:40.789 --> 00:53:44.289 to your website, markberry .com, learn more about 00:53:44.289 --> 00:53:46.969 what he's writing, and he probably has another 00:53:46.969 --> 00:53:49.250 book or two in him I can just tell by the energy, 00:53:49.309 --> 00:53:51.909 so. I am. I'm working on one about the Russian 00:53:51.909 --> 00:53:55.460 Revolution of 1917. There you go. I'm sure you'll 00:53:55.460 --> 00:53:58.019 like this book. Ah, great. Mark, thanks for your 00:53:58.019 --> 00:54:01.019 time today. Thank you. I appreciate it. Well, 00:54:01.079 --> 00:54:04.260 we certainly hope you enjoyed these programs 00:54:04.260 --> 00:54:08.659 on some African -American history and the service 00:54:08.659 --> 00:54:12.219 that they've performed for the military. Both 00:54:12.219 --> 00:54:15.739 stories dated back to the Civil War, but we got 00:54:15.739 --> 00:54:19.559 a little bit in there about Paris Davis in Vietnam, 00:54:19.719 --> 00:54:23.539 who's also a Medal of Honor recipient. You know, 00:54:23.539 --> 00:54:26.800 these are stories which don't get taught, maybe 00:54:26.800 --> 00:54:29.119 get passed down from generation to generation, 00:54:29.440 --> 00:54:32.760 but it's really incumbent on us to keep this 00:54:32.760 --> 00:54:37.760 knowledge, this recognition alive, particularly 00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:40.679 when so much of it gets lost in otherwise what 00:54:40.679 --> 00:54:44.300 I call rhetoric. So we're glad that we're able 00:54:44.300 --> 00:54:46.619 to do this on a weekly basis here on Veterans 00:54:46.619 --> 00:54:49.019 Radio. I know my partner Dale Throneberry and 00:54:49.019 --> 00:54:52.869 I kind of keep an eye out for these Oh, I've 00:54:52.869 --> 00:54:55.849 never heard of that kind of story. And we can 00:54:55.849 --> 00:54:57.889 only do it with the help of our sponsors like 00:54:57.889 --> 00:55:02.050 nvbdc .org, the Vietnam Veterans of America, 00:55:03.670 --> 00:55:08.210 VA Ann Arbor Health Care System, legalhelpforveterans 00:55:08.210 --> 00:55:12.269 .com, and we have some local sponsors as well. 00:55:12.969 --> 00:55:16.510 And if your post would like to join this group, 00:55:16.610 --> 00:55:19.920 we'd love to have you. We have the VVA Charles 00:55:19.920 --> 00:55:25.000 S. Kettles chapter 310 in Ann Arbor VFW Graf 00:55:25.000 --> 00:55:30.920 O 'Hara post 423 the American Legion post 46 00:55:30.920 --> 00:55:34.940 So it's all everybody helping out a little bit 00:55:34.940 --> 00:55:37.079 to keep this program alive. It's been on the 00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:40.300 air for 20 plus years We're working hard to make 00:55:40.300 --> 00:55:43.179 sure that we can continue these efforts. We're 00:55:43.179 --> 00:55:45.340 also always looking for unique story ideas So 00:55:45.340 --> 00:55:48.869 if you've got something you say hey I don't hear 00:55:48.869 --> 00:55:50.730 anybody talking about this and they really should. 00:55:51.150 --> 00:55:55.070 We'd be glad to line something up and have a 00:55:55.070 --> 00:55:58.909 discussion here on Veterans Radio. Something 00:55:58.909 --> 00:56:03.210 new is posted every week on our podcast on Tuesdays 00:56:03.210 --> 00:56:07.750 at 11. This Sunday program, full power program, 00:56:07.909 --> 00:56:12.429 gets reposted also on the various podcast feeds. 00:56:13.099 --> 00:56:15.420 So if you missed something, you can go back and 00:56:15.420 --> 00:56:17.480 catch it again. We have it on our archives. You 00:56:17.480 --> 00:56:21.119 can go to veteransradio .org to check us out. 00:56:21.699 --> 00:56:24.039 As I say, there's always something new. There's 00:56:24.039 --> 00:56:26.460 always good information. You can also go to Facebook 00:56:26.460 --> 00:56:28.940 and follow us there. We'd love to have you as 00:56:28.940 --> 00:56:32.099 somebody who participates in the social media 00:56:32.099 --> 00:56:36.679 game with us. So we are bringing this program 00:56:36.679 --> 00:56:40.469 to a conclusion. But we've got something good 00:56:40.469 --> 00:56:45.230 for you again next week. Dale will have the microphone. 00:56:45.989 --> 00:56:48.090 I'm Jim Fossone. It's been a pleasure to be your 00:56:48.090 --> 00:56:51.670 host. Until next time on Veterans Radio, you 00:56:51.670 --> 00:56:54.170 are dismissed.