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Podcasts. We post something new every week, and
you're going to find it informative. We're going
to have a couple of great stories today about
local histories, one in the Peninsula State of
Michigan and one in the Peninsula State of Florida,
on African -American efforts during the Civil
War that kind of lost history, if you will. So
I think you're going to stick around and enjoy
both of these on Veterans Radio. We want to welcome
to Veterans Radio today Maurice Imhoff, a Michigan
historian and author from the Jackson, Michigan
area. Maurice, welcome to Veterans Radio. Hi
there, happy to be here. Well, you've written
a book that captured my eye, and I thought, well,
this is local history I don't know. And I think
that's what a lot of us recognize, is there's
so much local history we don't know. And I wanted
to pass this along because I think all over the
country, there are these kinds of... Little historical
nuggets none of us know about, and you have researched
and written on the first Michigan colored infantry,
later known as the 102nd USCT, which we'll explain
that action in a minute. Let's start, Maurice,
with how did you get interested in researching
this particular subject? Which goes all the way
back to the Civil War. Very, that's a great subject.
Great question to ask. I got involved at the
Jackson Civil War muster in 2014, now the largest
civil war living history event in the Midwest.
My grandfather took me and he was a big historian.
I was not. He'd be talking history. I think some
grandfathers could tell your grandson about the
history and how cool the railroad tracks are,
things like that. looking out the window, staring
off to the side, not paying any attention. So
we go to the Civil War monster, which I did find
interesting. But either way, he stepped away
for a second to take a look at something else
that came across a group of African -American
living historians, which stood out. I mean, they
were the only ones and they're a bunch together.
And I got to know those guys. And before I knew
it. I was wearing a jacket, a hat and pants.
Um, and my grandfather came back looking for
me and I blended in with, which was kind of funny.
What happened to him? I lost him. Where'd he
go? And he, he was doing that. He was looking
left, looking right, putting his hand over his
head, trying to block the side. He was looking
for me and, um, you know, to make the little
story a little further there. I, uh, The first,
so I joined and the first year was all about
the battles. You know, as a young guy, you know,
14, I loved doing the reenactments, you know,
the musket, all that kind of stuff. That was
awesome. But it was the second year when I visited
the state archives in Lansing and got to view
the first Michigan colored regiments battle flag
that had actually been in the service with them
in the 1860s. And it was in poor condition, you
know, you're talking, you know, battle scars,
you know, tattered condition, the silk had deteriorated.
And I became interested in it because I hadn't
really been researched that much. There was missing
pieces from it, paint scars. So I started digging
into that research. And before I knew it, it
kept going and going. And I became the state's
head researcher on the subject. Well, and it's
really interesting now we have spoken to the
Gentlemen down at in Lansing who heads up that
battle flags group Yes, and and they recently
had a film out on these battle flags, which is
fantastic film So we'd continue to recommend
that to folks go to their website and and just
put in Michigan battle flags You'll get there,
you know history is not really taught in our
high schools in our colleges And if it's taught
it's not taught in much depth But by being in
living history, if you will, in the reenactment
and feeling it and smelling it and having all
those senses, it sort of ignited a spark and
an interest, didn't it? Absolutely. I mean, you
get to seeing it. as firsthand as you can, right?
Because I can't travel back in time to the 1860s
or to anyone else. So being able to actually
go and do living history programs puts you in
the feeling. And not only do we do some normal
programs at libraries and such, but I've gone
to some more full on intense, immersive events,
so to speak, where there's no crowd or you have
500 guys out in the middle of the woods. I went
to Bentonville just recently with about six of
my guys. And we portrayed some of the men who
of color who were building corduroy roads, moving
supplies, lifting logs, cutting down trees. And
it really put you in the experience. And one
of the funny things I like to say about that
is as much of that as cool as the experience
was, my guys were not having it. It was not fun.
I mean, you're talking like the you'd march a
mile, mile or two, and then they'd stop and they'd
tell all the white soldiers, you know, stack
your arms such like that and then they would
call us black soldiers up and say all right you
guys didn't go get you know get the road fixed
up ahead so we can move the move the man in the
wagons and my guys were mad because everyone
else was taking a break and I say as as interesting
as it was to see them mad it was cool to me to
see them get mad, because that's what you would
have saw back then in a way, right? You're seeing
the difference of what was going on and being
firsthand to those young men. So now then going
as a writer and writing about the soldiers, it
gave me, I could picture, you know, as I'm reading
letters and piecing them in the book to gather
the story, I could picture what it was like a
little bit easier from someone else who had never
done living history. And so your book is called
The First Michigan Colored Regiment. Free men
who fought slavery So put this in some contact
Maurice help. How many men were in the regiment?
How did it even get formed? Sure, so there was
fourteen hundred and men in the regiment. 1 ,446
to be specific. It's kind of weird that I know
that off the top of my head, but that were joining
this regiment. 1 ,000 of those men were freed,
or excuse me, former slaves from the South who
came up to Michigan and joined this regiment
throughout, you know, at some point when they
moved here. But it was formed by Colonel Henry
Barnes in Detroit, Michigan, who was a large
abolitionist. He ran the Detroit Advertiser and
Tribune, which was the abolitionist newspaper
there, the Republican paper, who was constantly
writing about ending slavery in America, stopping
the spread, and then also calling for the enlistment
of Black soldiers, which wasn't allowed. That
was a radical idea, wasn't it? Absolutely. I
mean, you're talking... Basically, by allowing
men to join the Union Army, you're calling them
equal. And even here in Michigan, people are
ready for that. People do not want that. Not
the entire population, I should say, wanted that.
And were these men also armed? I mean, do they
train as you might think an army group trains?
And were they given arms and trained in how to
shoot and fight and defend? So yeah, so at first
on the other parts of the nation that it started
a little slow They weren't willing to give them
firearms and such except but once the Emancipation
Proclamation was passed by Lincoln now they could
legally raised troops Giving you know giving
them arms giving them everything. I mean the
full pipe full mighty of the US government To
enlist the soldiers so they trained in Detroit
at Camp Ward and they got a Lorenz muskets to
start with later got Springfield muskets They
did very well, and that was one of the thoughts,
right? Are these guys going to do well? And what
they found, I mean, as people learn this, if
you teach them, well, they're going to do well.
In some parts of the nation, you had white leaders,
officers who didn't care, didn't feel like they
could do a good job, so they didn't train them
well, right? They kind of just didn't care. Michigan
soldiers, leading officers. did care and they
understood that these men could make good soldiers
and they did. I mean, you can read stories in
the newspaper from the 1860s about the men marching
through the principal streets of Detroit, looking
handsome, marching with their flag, with their
arms and such shiny. So they did very, very well,
making a strong presence here in Michigan, even
going so far to when they went Niles to the reporter
who was writing about the regiments coming for
a visit on a recruiting tour. And there's a couple
of copperheads who aren't in favor of this, who
are basically They're looking forward to dispatching
the guy. They can't wait till they get there
so they can laugh them off. And the reporter
then wrote, after they left, these copperheads
were blown away. They were so thrown that they
didn't have any words. I mean, they changed their
mind. Because all they're reading is the stuff
in the paper, right? Stuff nationally. Oh, they
don't make good soldiers. Oh, they have their
own opinions. But once they saw it firsthand,
That opinion completely changed, and that stood
the test of time when 180 ,000 black soldiers
nationally took up arms and fought to end slavery
in America. Well, and that's something I wanted
to get across, too, because you got to put this
in some context. I don't think, you know, again,
we don't teach history, so this is going all
the way back to the Civil War. But 180 to its
estimated 200 ,000 African Americans fought for
the Union in the Civil War that made up 10 percent
of the Army. Today, in today's army, there are
95 ,000 African Americans in active duty, and
that makes up 20 % of today's army. So there's
been a long continuous line of African Americans
in the army fighting and supporting this country.
And when you go back to this point in time in
the Civil War where this was sort of the beginning
and unusual, How did it work that they got called
out of Michigan and where did they go and what
did they do? Sure, so since they were a federal
regiment or the color troops I should say were
federal regiments, they were segregated. So they
sort of kind of raised as a state militia as
many of the other units were, you know, the 21st
Michigan infantry, 20th, etc. So they were raised
as the first Michigan colored regiment. However,
once they got to DC in the Maryland area, They
became federalized with the Bureau of the United
States Colored Troops segregated. So like another
branch of the Army, so speaking of today's times.
So they became a redesignation say as the one
hundred and second united states colored troops
and that's that that people often get confused
of the two different groups you know that's that's
one unit they just had their name changed and
that actually didn't like that um you know why
they like being you know soldiers in the army
and really respected i mean being federal troops
to as well it gives you even more power right
um they felt disrespected that they were these.
colored soldiers. And I tell people, imagine
there is a battle taking place. And if you can
think of stories like this where you've heard,
right? Imagine there's a battle taking place
and the 20th Michigan infantry whips the Rebs,
right? They destroy the flank and they whip them
down the hill and they've ran them off. And the
other unit nearby, the Illinois guys would say,
wow, those 20th Michigan boys, wow, they really
whipped them and they saved the day, et cetera.
Well, in this case, now they just became the
colored soldiers, right? They don't know where
they're from. They're no longer the Wolverine
state, right? They're just the colored troops.
So they felt a little upset about that, but they
still carried on that legacy of going by the
First Michigan Colored Troops where they could.
Well, and the importance of being federalized
and that recognition, again, at the time may
not have seemed like much, but... It opened up
a lot of different opportunities including there's
in Arlington National Cemetery there's a whole
plot of graves related to those from the United
States Colored Troops and they lost a little
bit probably of that feeling of relationship
to Abraham Lincoln's famous quote, thank God
for Michigan, right? Yes. The context of that
is Michigan sending troops to aid the Union cause
early on in the process. Where did the research
come from? Talk to us about, it really takes
years of combing through things to get this book
to where you say, okay, now I got the history
right, let me get it out in public. Right, I
started researching the newspapers, the Detroit
Advertiser and Tribune, or I should say the Detroit
Free Press. That's an interesting story in itself.
I started with the Detroit Free Press because
it was available online through newstrippers
.com, which news historians will know. And I
was reading all about the regiment, finding these
different stories through the paper and such
like that. And I'll be honest, I couldn't believe
what I was reading because the Detroit Free Press...
bash to this regiment. I mean, they have to go
into march and say they tore up the city. Nobody
wants them here. You know, why is Michigan even
raising the troops? You know, they got their
muskets, they threw them on the ground, so to
speak. And what I learned, as a younger guy,
what I was missing there was that this was the
Democratic paper, which was not in favor of having
colored troops. So in a media point of view,
they wanted to tell the public that this was
bad. And when I discovered the Detroit Advertiser
and Tribune, it was a day and night. It's between
the stories. And that lesson rings true today,
right? Absolutely. I tell people, I don't want
to put anyone on blast, but you put Fox and CNN
on and sometimes you get completely different
stories. Absolutely. And that is what you kind
of see a little bit there. And so, yeah, and
I do as well as a historian, you know, I make
sure I'm reading through the bias because even
the advertising tribune is going to have a little
bit of a bias, right? So I show that in my book.
I do a chapter, I believe it's called Trouble
at Camp Ward, which goes over a lot of the mischief
that the soldiers did get themselves into. A
variety of mischief or a robbery. They got into
fights at the camp. I got news for you. Put a
bunch of young bucks together in the Army. There
isn't an Army camp around that hasn't had those
problems. Let's back up because you've mentioned
it twice and I'm not familiar with it. Where
was Camp Ward? It doesn't exist anymore today.
People may know for Wayne, but tell us a little
bit about Camp Ward in Detroit. Yes, Camp Ward
was located where I believe, I'm not from Detroit,
so I don't know how it, they've changed the name
a few times. Ralph Bunch Elementary School. There
is an elementary school there and some tennis
courts and some apartments nearby. And the historical
marker is located in the back of that elementary
school by a little roundabout. There's another
good example, there's another good example, Maurice
Zimoff, of we don't pay any attention to history.
We stuck that marker around back, nobody will
ever see it. Right. Yeah, it's an interesting
spot. I don't know exactly why that location
specifically was chosen. And two, I did have
a little bit of conflicting research about where
the camp was actually sitting at. It looks like
it may mean, in my opinion, at least, that it
was actually sitting a little more closer to
Elmwood Cemetery when I was comparing the maps.
But I don't know. I wasn't there. And a neat
little side story there, too, actually. That
historical marker was dedicated in 1968, I believe.
I'll cut my head. If you know Detroit, there
was a significant event in 1967. So this historical
marker was actually a part of rebuilding that
black community in Detroit, rebuilding everyone
coming back together as a community. The governor
was there, leaders of the NAACP were there. So
this was kind of a way to look back at our history
and see how far we have come and honor that history
in a way. Yeah, I'm seeing online that Camp Ward
was on Detroit's east side where the Black Bottom
neighborhood once stood, which got raised for
some urban development plan. And there is some
archaeological work going on trying to find more
about the remnants of the camp and that sort
of thing. So again, we lose our history. That's
why books like First Michigan Colored Regiment,
Free Men Who Fought Slavery, is so important.
Maurice, the men ended up fighting out of state
at a couple of different battles. Can you tell
us about that a little more specifically? Sure.
They fought a variety of different engagements
in the South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida area.
And before I dive into that, I'd like to say,
like I used to say a little earlier, is these
men were fighting for a different cause than
all of the rest of the Army. The African American
men in the Army were fighting for freedom. And
that, I mean, that's, I mean, no doubt about
it. That's what these guys are fighting for.
Of course they want to preserve the union and
there's a whole, right? But these men were fighting
for freedom and liberty. They're fighting to,
and we said that we're fighting to free other
people, right? But let's, let's look closer into
that as an 18 year old who made their way out
of slavery and up to a free state. They're going
back and why are they joining? To free their
mom. to free their dad, their girlfriend, their
best friends who are still left in slavery. That's
what these guys are fighting for. That's what
they're thinking about. They're not thinking
about American government. That's right. That's
a powerful way to look at it. And I suspect maybe
in your reviewing letters and research, there
was a certain element of respect involved in
what they were doing. They were earning the respect
that they were entitled to. Were you able to
find personal letters or journals or anything
of that sort? Absolutely. There was a couple
good letters that came across to me, a collection.
Sharon, if I'm pronouncing that right, came across
a great collection. I'm blanking on his name
of one African -American soldier who was in the
ranks. And then there was another collection
by Sherry. I'm like, I feel so bad. Sherry, she
came across the collection and transcribed some
another. soldiers letters, I believe it was Alonzo
Reed. But then there were a couple officers.
And one of my favorites was a surgeon, he was
a white surgeon, younger guy. And he had a collection
of letters he was writing back and forth to his
wife. And which made this even better was he
was writing back and forth to his wife. And he
was knowledgeable, you know, he had to read and
write very well. And he shared every bit of his
opinions. And what I mean by that too, is you
can think of a friend of yours who gets too into
politics and you ask one question and they're
giving you a whole big load of how they feel.
That was this guy. He gave you a big load of
how he felt, but that was perfect. Cause you're
seeing right into how he feels. And at times
at first, honestly, he didn't like black men.
It seemed that he was very, um, new to it. I
would say he didn't like them. I shall back that
up. He was very new to it. It was fun. They hadn't
been around a very many, many black men. So when
he got um into the into the regiment he got he
referred to them to the hard r the n word you
know he he didn't know these guys and through
his time through the lives back and forth you
see his opinion changes and it changes quickly
you know calling them brothers and and mad at
the white men who he interacted with who bashed
his men you know treated them differently you
know he he was that was a gold knife well yeah
that i was just gonna say that was the term i
was gonna use for historian writing those Personal
letters are just gold because they give you a
context you otherwise wouldn't have. But I interrupted
you. They get down to South Carolina, which is
a long way from Detroit, Georgia, and Florida.
Talk about those battles as well. Yeah, so their
first battle is going to be down the road from
Olustee, Florida, near Jacksonville, in a place
called, oh man, why do I? I usually know these
names so well, and I'm blanking on the name of
it, but it's just Paso Lusti, Florida. And I'm
sorry, I just can't think of the name of it,
but it's a small engagement, so to speak anyways.
So they're down there in Northern Florida and
they're tearing up railroads and they start to
get Baldwin, Florida. Thank you. It's between
Jacksonville and all Lusti, Baldwin, Florida.
And they're tearing up these railroad tracks
to try to stop. the Confederate advance and supplies.
And they began to hear this noise. That noise
goes louder and louder. But before they know
it, I've been down to this area. It's thick pine
trees, national forest woods. Before they know
it, there's rebel cavalry pouring out of the
woodwork, attacking them. This regiment is now
in a little bit of panic, right? They've never
seen combat, ever. The white officers who are
leading these men. have never seen their men
fight. And if anything, they've been told by
their comrades, have been told by their friends
at home, these guys are going to drop their guns
or they're going to run and you're going to die.
You're a fool for joining this regiment. So they're
nervous. What happens? The 102nd fixes their
bayonets, fires a volley into the cavalry and
easily repels them. And not only do they fire
a volley, after they fired, everyone's now empty,
right? Everyone is completely empty. What do
they decide to do? They charge the cavalry by
hand and easily repel them off without losing
one man. And that told these white officers and
everyone around, these men are here to do business,
I tell people. So that's their first engagement.
Up to their largest one at the Battle of Honey
Hill, they see some other small fights back and
forth in the area. They fight next to the 54th
and 55th Massachusetts, very famously known for
the movie Glory. Denzel Washington, Morgan Freeman.
So they have some engagements in there and potter's
raid going through, trying to slow down the Confederate
advance again, make them want to stop fighting
by messing up these towns a little bit. But their
largest and most famous battle is the Battle
of Honey Hill, South Carolina, where the regiment
helps to return three cannons back from the battlefield.
Union guns that had been decimated, the men had
been. So they rush up, they grab the cannons.
and they wheel them back while under fire. And
what I mean by that is these men are literally
getting shot in the arm and in the leg while
moving these guns in the woods, mind you, as
well. And for that, Orson W. Bennett, who led
that charge, was awarded the Medal of Honor.
Now, Orson W. Bennett was a white man. who was
awarded the Medal of Honor. None of the Black
soldiers were awarded the Medal of Honor for
that action. However, I think, you know, no one
discredits, you know, the work that he did to
be able to lead that charge. Well, that's interesting.
And there's a long history of African -American
soldiers not getting recognized for doing more
than others in battle all the way up to most
recently the name that comes to my mind is Paris
Davis in Vietnam whose Medal of Honor package
kept getting lost four or five times before it
finally enough people got behind it and proved
it up and and he got it so very interesting that
Orson Bennett got the recognition. When you got
done researching this and writing this, what's
your hope or expectation for capturing this history?
My hope is that it's not lost, and that's kind
of what it had been for a period of time, really,
until the 80s, when these African -American living
historians got involved in Lansing and wanted
to share this history. The story gets told. When
I think about that as a young man who is a descendant
of slaves from Georgia. I think about how all
of those young men, including older men, right,
joined this. I mean, they gave up their freedom.
I mean, they were literally just free. I mean,
think if you're born into a prison and then you
get out of that prison and the first thing you
do is go back and potentially be put back in
that prison. Let's get some scary stuff. and
all of these guys who put their freedom on the
line and their life on the line and then sacrifice
their life, honestly as well, for freedom, to
have what we have today. I mean, I think, you
know, sometimes we don't need to always focus
on the past. It's important that we move forward
as a country and move forward as a society. But
sometimes we need to think back about how we
have these, why we have these freedoms. I mean,
I go to the store, I can get a McDonald's hamburger.
I don't know, I go to Meyer. I mean, just I can
live my regular day life. But how did I earn
that, in a way? How did we get to that point?
And without the sacrifices of our soldiers from
all of these wars, I wouldn't be able to do that.
And that's where I think it is so important that
we think about it. That's why I'm honored to
have a group of 40 young students, all high school
and college students with me who teach this history
in our living history group. And we want to be
able to share not only to the general public,
but to our fellow brothers and sisters that we
need to cherish this history. So that's my biggest
hope, that it will continue to be cherished,
shared, and people learn that African -American
men were the victors of the Civil War, not the
victims. I mean, these guys took up arms and
they did their fair share. No, that's a great
message we should learn from this history and
apply it today. Maurice Imhoff, I really appreciate
you taking some time today to talk about this
history, to talk about the First Michigan Colored
Regiment, free men who fought slavery, and congratulate
you on getting this out and keep up the good
work. Well, thank you so much. I never intended
really on having a publication, but you know,
it came to me and I had everything sitting in
a pile and it was the time is now and I'm really
happy with how it came out. Excellent. Thanks.
The Congressional Medal of Honor Society Convention
will be held in Detroit from September 29th to
October 3rd, 2026, featuring the largest gathering
of a living Medal of Honor recipients. This convention
brings together many of the 60 living recipients
for a series of public and private events aimed
at sharing their stories and promoting the values
of the Medal of Honor such as commitment, integrity,
courage, sacrifice, citizenship, and patriotism.
This convention represents a unique opportunity
for the city to honor its military heroes and
foster a spirit of patriotism and community engagement.
You can learn more about the convention at medalofhonoredetroit
.com. Let me tell you about one of these men,
Paris Davis. He was born in Cleveland, Ohio.
He went off ultimately to Southern University
in Baton Rouge, where he earned an ROTC scholarship,
one of the first in his family to go to college
and graduate. He went into The Army became an
airborne and ranger during his early years. He
qualified for special forces. He went to Vietnam
in June of 1965 and in a horrendous battle was
wounded early in the fight but refused to leave
and be evacuated. repeatedly crossed open ground
under heavy enemy fire to rescue wounded comrades,
including dragging his team sergeant across the
field, while the air around them erupted in enemy
rounds. He coordinated fire support. He even
refused morphine so that he'd remain alert and
could direct the battle. He wasn't going to leave
until every man, dead or alive, was accounted
for. As a result of those actions, he received
the Medal of Honor. However, his story is more
interesting in that it took about 50, 60 years,
six decades for the nation to finally recognize
him. The packages that were submitted for his
Medal of Honor were quote unquote misplaced or
quote lost close quote, or was it because he
was an African American? Finally, President Joe
Biden in March of 2023, awarded him the Medal
of Honor in a White House ceremony where his
due was recognized. You can learn more by going
to Congressional Medal of Honor Society's site,
cmohs .org, and remember to visit and support
medalofhonoredetroit .com. They're experts in
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me, Jim. It's quite an honor and a pleasure.
Thank you. Well, as I've read about you, I know
you were a New York guy, and you were upstate
New York writing a lot of local history books,
and one thing leads to another, and you find
yourself in Florida, and now you're writing about
some Florida military history we want to talk
about. I gotta admit, when I read this article,
I said, I never heard of this, and it's the Battle
of Fort Myers, slaves fighting for their freedom.
That's correct. And I have to confess, Jim, until
I moved to Florida myself, I didn't know about
the Battle of Fort Myers either. So we're in
the same pool. Yeah, and that's why we're doing
this is because I think there's so much lost
history, particularly history about how African
Americans, Hispanic Americans, Japanese Americans,
and all the other groups you might think of to
categorize have fought for this country. But
we teach so little history, those stories don't
get told in high school or even college for that
matter. So that's why this is important in my
mind. Do you agree? Those things get lost in
the shuffle, this is true. But on the other hand,
in the defense of those of us who are ignorant
about this battle, the big data has got all the
publicity. And most people don't realize that
Florida was important in the Civil War because
it was literally the breadbasket for the Confederacy.
And that's why the Union troops wandered on down
here because... They wanted to stop all the beef
and grains and everything else is coming from
the South to supply the Confederate Army. That
was the only way they were going to defeat the
Confederate Army. So the Union made their presence
known, and that's how the battle started. Well,
this is 19, I'm sorry, 1865, right? February
2nd, 1865 was the battle itself. Put in some
context what this fort was. Was it a Confederate
fort that the Union took over? A Union fort?
Tell us about it. Well, it was a very small establishment
and at the time of the battle, it was very lightly
staffed. There was only about 250 men there.
In fact, they had just returned on the day of
the battle. They had just returned a couple of
days earlier from another scramble elsewhere.
A skirmish, I should say. and those 250 men,
most of them were exhausted. They only had about
75 muskets between them, and even then about
30 rounds of ammo per musket. So it was not what
you'd call the best defended fortress controlled,
so to speak, by the Uyghurs. The Confederates,
on the other hand, knew what the Union was there
for. They wanted to protect their food chain
further north to the main Confederate army. They
had about three companies. They had about 400
men. They had a big 12 -pound piece of artillery.
They had it in their head that they were going
to take this so -called Union -controlled fort
away from the Union. They surprised a couple
of the African -American troops, as it turned
out, who were outside of the walls of the fort
during their laundry. Took them prisoner fired
a few shots and those shots miraculously Warned
the folks inside the fort and that began what
would turn out to be an 11 -hour battle between
the Confederacy and the Union Well, and let's
frame this a little bit more for those who aren't
up on their Civil War history African Americans
or black troops were fighting as part of the
United States colored troops usct and that term
sounds funny today but can you put some context
around it well the usct turned out to be very
very significant as you and i were talking earlier
African Americans ended up, by the end of the
war, to be about 10 % of the total fighting force
of the Union, somewhere in the vicinity of 180
,000 to 200 ,000 troops. And 37 ,000 African
Americans ended up dying in the course of the
Civil War because of their battle wounds and
being killed in battle. So there was a long,
slow process for them. You have to put it in
perspective. The battle was 1865. It was about
two years earlier in January. 1863 that Lincoln.
had written and published and passed the Emancipation
Proclamation. But that didn't mean that black
troops were automatically integrated into the
Union Army. In fact, they experienced a tremendous
resistance wherever they went. Often segregated,
even so -called all -black companies were commanded
by a white officer. And so it was much like Jackie
Robinson was decades later, hundreds of years
later, when he got into the baseball. realize
that he wasn't a hero. He was treated more like
a goat and not the greatest of all time, obviously,
and discriminated against by some of his own
teammates. The same happened with the USCT. So
even though they fought with valor and courage,
places like Port Hudson in Louisiana, Fort Wagner
in South Carolina, several places in Virginia,
including Spotsylvania. They were discriminated
against, it was a very prejudiced atmosphere,
and yet historians today realize that they were
very tough brunts, the USCT, they were very courageous,
tough as nails, extremely aggressive, and very
united and cohesive group. And wherever they
fought, they did a great job, they did an absolutely
great job. Well, nothing brings people together
more than being in the foxhole together. The
colored troops that were at Fort Myers were kind
of critical to this battle, weren't they? They
represented the bulk of the people that were
there, the soldiers that were there, obviously.
And they were credited with winning the battle,
in fact. The as a result of the black troops
being there, some of the several of them were
cited for bravery. And they stunned the Confederacy,
the Confederacy outnumbered them easily. But
the the white captain, a guy named James Doyle
in the fort. was told to surrender because he
was outnumbered and the Confederates had a big
12 pound piece of artillery. The Union had a
couple of six pounds, that was it. And his response
was, I respectfully decline. And he and his African
-American counterparts decided to slug it out.
And after 11 hours, the rebels simply called
it quits. They did it that night. 40 Confederates
lay dead on about half a dozen Union casualties,
not much. Of course, they had the fort to protect
them, but they had some very, very aggressive
Black soldiers that worked in and outside the
fort and stunned the hell out of these Confederates,
and that's why the Confederates ended up losing
the Battle of Fort Myers. And did this sort of
end up being a line where, okay, we're not getting
back this territory and otherwise put a big dent,
I suppose, in the pride of the Confederacy? Well,
you put your finger on one of the greatest ironies
of the Battle of Fort Myers. Not only was it
little known and quickly forgotten, but in two
months, in less than two months, actually a month
later, about that to the battle, both sides in
the Civil War abandoned the fort. It wasn't important
anymore. And one of the reasons was, even at
the time of the Battle of Fort Myers, the Confederacy
knew they were losing the war. They saw the writing
on the wall. A month later, it became very clear,
black and white, no pun intended. And of course,
General Lee surrendered the Confederacy April
9th, 1865, less about two months after the Battle
of Fort Myers. So a month later, the battle that
lasted 11 hours, it cost that many Confederate
troops. and they put the USCT on the map, so
to speak, as far as historians are concerned,
all went for nothing because both sides said,
we don't need this fort anymore. The breadbasket
for the Confederacy had pretty well dried up
anyway, and the war was just off -skip and a
jump from being all over. Well, you, in your
article on this little -known topic, quoted the
New York Times that reported the former slaves,
quote, could hardly be restrained, close quote.
They seemed totally unconscious of danger and
constantly shouted to each other to get them,
close quote, meaning the rebels. I hate to use
the word zealous because that's got a broad connotation
these days. But these guys were zealous in fulfilling
their duties. And of course, some of it can be
attributed to the fact that they felt they had
to work twice as hard and be twice as effective
as their white counterparts. But I think there
was more than that. And I'm probably putting
thoughts and maybe even words into these African
-American soldiers' mouths and minds. But I think
they knew they were under the gun, so to speak.
I think they knew that they had everything at
stake. They had a couple years ago been told
by their president that they were all free. Now
they had to fight for their freedom. And so they
fought with gallantry. They fought with a fervor
and with a fever that the white soldiers during
the Civil War did not have, because they were
not fighting to free themselves. These troops,
particularly those in the Fort Myers battle,
I think they knew perfectly well that if they
had surrendered to the Confederates, they would
go back to their former lives as slaves. And
many of those Blacks in the Fort were former
slaves, and they did not want to go back. And
they were prepared to put their life on the line
to make sure they didn't go back. We're talking
to Mark Barry who's a author, writes a lot of
in the area of military and historical topics.
One of the things I want to put context on because
I think again it's easy to kind of forget this
stuff is that as you said there were up to 200
,000 African -American troops in the Civil War.
Today uh... in the active army there's about
ninety five thousand african -americans and they
make up twenty percent of the active duty force
or but back in the civil war because so many
more men were involved they made up ten percent
of the army but the sheer number uh... is somewhat
staggering and easy to lose sight of when you're
not paying attention to the history Over the
decades, of course, the numbers have changed,
so those percentages are kind of out of whack
now compared to what they were back then. And
most people don't even know that, so thanks for
bringing it up, Jim. But something else that
a lot of people don't know is that the Black
soldiers performed above and beyond what their
white counterparts did often. For example, right
now, if you go back and look at the record, as
a result of the war, there were 14 Black soldiers
that received medals of honor for valor in such
places as the Battle of New Market Heights in
Virginia and elsewhere. In total, the Black troops
of the USCT were recognized for exceptional bravery
in 39 separate but nevertheless major engagements
in the Civil War. This is an outstanding disproportionate
performance by African -American military men
that proves their bravery, proves their courage,
and prove their zeal in fighting not just for
our country's survival, but their own survival
and their own freedom. That's an outstanding
record for any single group in the military,
in my opinion. Absolutely. One of the things,
you know, the Battle of Fort Myers is, as we've
talked about, kind of a significant event today
if Fort Myers is a thriving area, a lot of people
live there, but a lot of tourists come through.
There must be some huge recognition of this battle
and the role the black companies from the USCT
played, right? I can bear the sarcasm dripping,
my friend. No, there isn't. There's just one,
as I put in that article, one of those ubiquitous
blue signs with the yellow print, I believe,
sitting at the mark of the fort. It's hardly
noticed. It's very rarely mentioned in papers.
In fact, I think the last time I got some publicity
is the article that I wrote. And it's too bad.
Working hard to make sure that it's not forgotten
as the sons of the American Revolution, particularly,
excuse me, not just the sons of the American
Revolution, but the one I'm a member of also,
the sons of the Union. and veteran of the Civil
War, they're all history buffs in these organizations.
And particularly the SUVCW has tried to mark
that occasion of the Fort Myers battle every
single year, tried to get out there and perform
some sort of a ceremony with a color guard. But
sometimes I think they're swimming upstream because
we don't teach history in schools like we used
to. In fact, you might find some public schools
where history is not even taught at all. uh,
my own granddaughters, I love them dearly, but
they came home and I found out pretty quickly,
they knew more about Harriet Tubman than they
did about Abraham Lincoln. And so the history
that is taught is a bit skewered and unfortunately,
uh, battles like this that are militarily insignificant,
but in my opinion, historically significant get
lost in the shuffle. Yeah. And it's particularly
true for the communities around which they were
fought in the communities of men who fought in
them there should be more recognition. Let me
point out that Mark is the Patriotic instructor
of the Colonel Robert W. Bernard, Camp Number
Two of the Department of Florida, Sons of Union
Veterans of the Civil War in Fort Myers. You
can't get that on a business card. No, but it's
a high paying job. I can assure you. I'm sure
of that. Now I'm being sarcastic. Yeah. So let's
talk a little bit about what you have written.
You have a website. Folks can go to Mark Berry.
and that's barie .com to find these books, which
are on Amazon, but they all have a little flavor
of wartime efforts in different zones. Tell us
about them. Well, I essentially either the elevator
version of this is I read about love in war so
I started backwards I started with the Civil
War because my wife was an expert genealogist
waltzed into the living room Monday and announced
that I had an ancestor that fought in the Civil
War and I got lucky and I found a diary from
that same regiment the Adirondack regiment And
my first novel was born. Prior to that, my wife
and I had collaborated on a couple of local history
books. I had done a couple of biographies back
when we lived in upstate New York, right along
the Canadian border. But when I moved to Florida,
this is about 11 years ago, I thought I'd never
write anything again. But that's when she announced
this ancestor. So I wrote the book, had a lot
of fun. And I'll warn you, if there's a book
in your, Jim, if not already, then when you write
your first book, I hope your loved ones and your
relatives and your friends and neighbors will
tell us a wonderful book. I couldn't put it down,
but you as a first time author are suffering
from this syndrome called imposter syndrome.
I felt I was an imposter, but then the darn book
won a couple of awards. And then my massive ego
took over. And then after that Civil War book
came a love story about the Revolutionary War,
about a nun who leaves the combat and ends up
spying for George Washington and the War of 1812,
which is set in the area of where I come from
in Plattsburgh, New York, right along the border.
That's about a girl disguised as a boy who ends
up on the Commodore's flagship during one of
the most important naval battles of the War of
1812. After that, I was going to do a book on
the Spanish -American War. I never got past the
mysterious explosion of the USS Maine. So the
entire book is about the mysterious explosion.
And I'm egotistical enough to tell you that my
conclusions as to who and what caused that mysterious
explosion made a couple of headlines in a few
local newspapers. Had a lot of fun writing that.
Even though that too was a love story, it's historically
accurate, extremely accurate. And the most recent
book published last year is about World War I,
about a nurse from Newfoundland, Canada. Well,
back then it wasn't Canada, it was the country
of Newfoundland who volunteered as a nurse and
ended up in one of the most grisly, horrifying
wars in the history of mankind, World War I.
So it's been a lot of fun. Well, this is an area
called historical fiction, right? But being accurate
on the history is... not only part of the challenge,
but part of the beauty, because this is how you
get maybe somebody who otherwise wouldn't read
a dry history book engaged in finding out what
happened in the Civil War or in Havana or in
World War I to this nurse. So historical fiction,
you know, it stays here, I think. Well, you just
hit the nail on the head and it's taken authors
and readers a long time to figure that out When
you write in my case historical fiction But I
like to call it historical romance because there
is a the love side of that story your historical
Narrative must be extremely accurate because
I sell most of my books in person. I go all over
Florida I think last year I did 25 speaking gigs
all over Florida and there's usually one history
buff in the room And if you've made a mistake,
they'll correct you very quickly In fact, as
an aside, I was talking about the Civil War once
and this little lady got up in the back of the
room and she said, Sonny, down here we don't
call it the Civil War, we call it the War of
Northern Aggression. Well, as we were going through
this time. discussion today and thinking, okay,
I think I've just ticked off all the, all the
listeners south of the Mason Dixon line, but
they're very serious. And, uh, and, and I've
made other mistakes. I don't know if that was
a real mistake, but I can remember it in the
first time I got my, the first 100 books in my
civil war novel. And I discovered that in, uh,
um, whatever page number it was, I talked about
a famous escape at Libby prison in Virginia.
And, um, and I talked about how the prisoners
had. this piece of rubber sheet that they used
to put air into the tunnel. And then 100 pages
later, the rubber sheet turned into a plastic
sheet, which of course, wasn't invented for another
100 some odd years. And boy, was that pointed
out pretty quick. And there was a panic call
to my publisher and make my long story longer,
even though it's historical romance, even though
it's historical fiction. every single historical
fact that can possibly be Googled or chat -upt'd
or whatever the hell it's called is accurate.
For example, in the Civil War book, you read
a section where Lincoln goes to the soldier's
home and visits prisoners. And except for the
conversations, which you can take some liberties
with, he was there. Trust me, he'd been there.
That's what he did all the time. He visited the
wounded soldiers. Any historical figure, any
historical event, in a book, even though it's
called historical romance or historical fiction,
must be accurate. I'm very proud to say in all
five of my historical novels is extremely accurate.
I would define them if you find a mistake. Now,
I'll probably live to regret that, but I don't
think there's even a mistake. Well, it's a genre
I really enjoy reading. I hope our veteran radio
listeners will tune into your books. You can
find them on Amazon. You can find the whole genre
of historical fiction there as well. And it's
a great way to get introduced to some of these
battles and concepts and what was going on back
then, the history that you were never taught.
but also wrapped in a way that will make it maybe
a little more interesting, maybe keep you a little
more engaged as a historical romance novel. Well,
I agree with that. And when I go all over and
speak, I don't talk about my books. I don't know
why anybody would want to listen to me talk about
my books. I talk about my research. And nine
times out of ten, I'm talking about what we've
been talking about little known historical facts
and many people find interesting sometimes fascinating
absolutely fascinating and i'm gonna i don't
know how much time we got left but jim i'll leave
you with a real quick story about an african
-american the african the highest officer in
the history of the the civil war uh that uh happened
to be african -american his name was uh alexander
alexander thomas augustus last name is augusta
and believe it or not he was a surgeon and uh
he was his initial acceptance in the army was
revoked for a couple reasons number one he was
a black man and number two he had lived for 10
years in canada which back then was considered
was British controlled. So he was considered
a British subject. And so they said, no, you
can't join the army. Well, he refused that answer.
He wrote to President Lincoln himself and asked
that the medical board reverse their decision.
Lincoln agreed with them. The medical board changed
their mind. They honored Augusta's initial acceptance.
They made him a major and the head surgeon in
the seventh US colored infantry. Years later,
he would advocate for equal pay for African -American
soldiers. He wrote a letter of complaint to Senator
Wilson back then. They raised his salary to the
appropriate level and all of the other commissioned
officers, too. And near the end of the war, guess
what? He was awarded the honorary rank of lieutenant
colonel and he became the highest black officer
in the U .S. military at the time. And around
1865, a president by the name of Lincoln, along
with his wife, invited him to the White House.
and he became the first African American ever
to visit the White House. and the trivia, and
the story, and I'm sure your listeners will appreciate
that. No, again, this is why we do this, Mark,
and we don't want to forget this kind of history.
It's so important. We appreciate the time that
you've given us today, Mark Berry. I send folks
to your website, markberry .com, learn more about
what he's writing, and he probably has another
book or two in him I can just tell by the energy,
so. I am. I'm working on one about the Russian
Revolution of 1917. There you go. I'm sure you'll
like this book. Ah, great. Mark, thanks for your
time today. Thank you. I appreciate it. Well,
we certainly hope you enjoyed these programs
on some African -American history and the service
that they've performed for the military. Both
stories dated back to the Civil War, but we got
a little bit in there about Paris Davis in Vietnam,
who's also a Medal of Honor recipient. You know,
these are stories which don't get taught, maybe
get passed down from generation to generation,
but it's really incumbent on us to keep this
knowledge, this recognition alive, particularly
when so much of it gets lost in otherwise what
I call rhetoric. So we're glad that we're able
to do this on a weekly basis here on Veterans
Radio. I know my partner Dale Throneberry and
I kind of keep an eye out for these Oh, I've
never heard of that kind of story. And we can
only do it with the help of our sponsors like
nvbdc .org, the Vietnam Veterans of America,
VA Ann Arbor Health Care System, legalhelpforveterans
.com, and we have some local sponsors as well.
And if your post would like to join this group,
we'd love to have you. We have the VVA Charles
S. Kettles chapter 310 in Ann Arbor VFW Graf
O 'Hara post 423 the American Legion post 46
So it's all everybody helping out a little bit
to keep this program alive. It's been on the
air for 20 plus years We're working hard to make
sure that we can continue these efforts. We're
also always looking for unique story ideas So
if you've got something you say hey I don't hear
anybody talking about this and they really should.
We'd be glad to line something up and have a
discussion here on Veterans Radio. Something
new is posted every week on our podcast on Tuesdays
at 11. This Sunday program, full power program,
gets reposted also on the various podcast feeds.
So if you missed something, you can go back and
catch it again. We have it on our archives. You
can go to veteransradio .org to check us out.
As I say, there's always something new. There's
always good information. You can also go to Facebook
and follow us there. We'd love to have you as
somebody who participates in the social media
game with us. So we are bringing this program
to a conclusion. But we've got something good
for you again next week. Dale will have the microphone.
I'm Jim Fossone. It's been a pleasure to be your
host. Until next time on Veterans Radio, you
are dismissed.