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you're going to find it informative. We want
to welcome to Veterans Radio today an award -winning
author who writes a lot in the military space
and history space, Mark Berry. Mark, welcome
to Veterans Radio. Thank you very much for having
me, Jim. It's quite an honor and a pleasure,
thank you. Well, as I've read about you, I know
you were a New York guy and you were upstate
New York writing a lot of local history books
and one thing leads to another and you find yourself
in Florida and now you're writing about some
Florida military history we want to talk about.
I gotta admit, when I read this article, I said,
I never heard of this. And it's the Battle of
Fort Myers, slaves fighting for their freedom.
That's correct. And I have to confess, Jim, until
I moved to Florida myself, I didn't know about
the Battle of Fort Myers either. So we're in
the same pool. Yeah. And that's why we're doing
this is because I think there's so much lost
history, particularly history about how African
Americans, Hispanic Americans, Japanese Americans,
and all the other groups you might think of to
categorize have fought for this country. But
we teach so little history, those stories don't
get told in high school or even college for that
matter. So that's why this is important in my
mind. Do you agree? Those things get lost in
the shuffle, this is true. But on the other hand,
in defense of those of us who are ignorant about
this battle, the big data has got all the publicity.
And most people don't realize that Florida was
important in the Civil War because it was literally
the breadbasket for the Confederacy. And that's
why the Union troops wandered on down here because...
They wanted to stop all the beef and grains and
everything else is coming from the South to supply
the Confederate Army. That was the only way they
were going to defeat the Confederate Army. So
the Union made their presence known, and that's
how the battle started. Well, this is 19, I'm
sorry, 1865, right? February 2nd, 1865 was the
battle itself. And put in some context what this
fort was. Was it a Confederate fort that the
Union took over? A Union fort? Tell us about
it. Well, it was a very small establishment and
at the time of the battle it was very lightly
staffed There's only about 250 men there. In
fact, they just returned on the day of the battle
They just returned a couple days early from another
scramble elsewhere a skirmish I should say and
those 250 men most of them were exhausted They
only had about 75 muskets between them and even
then about 30 rounds of ammo per musket So it
was not what you'd call the best defended fortress
controlled, so to speak, by the Union. The Confederates,
on the other hand, knew what the Union was there
for. They wanted to protect their food chain
further north to the main Confederate army. They
had about three companies. They had about 400
men. They had a big 12 -pound piece of artillery.
And so they had it in their head that they were
going to take this so -called Union -controlled
fort away from the Union. And they surprised
a couple of the African -American troops, as
it turned out, who were outside of the walls
of the fort during their laundry, took them to
prison or fired a few shots. And those shots
miraculously warned the folks inside the fort.
And that began what would turn out to be an 11
-hour battle between the Confederacy and the
Union. Well, and let's frame this a little bit
more for those who aren't up on their Civil War
history. African Americans or Black troops were
fighting as part of the United States Colored
Troops, USCT. And that term sounds funny today,
but can you put some context around it? Well,
the USCT turned out to be very, very significant.
As you and I were talking earlier, African Americans
ended up by the end of the war to be about 10
% of the total fighting force of the Union, somewhere
in the vicinity of 180 ,000 to 200 ,000 troops.
And 37 ,000 African Americans ended up dying
in the course of the Civil War because of their
battle wounds and being killed in battle. So
there was a long, slow process for them. You
have to put it in perspective. The battle was
1865. It was about two years earlier, in January
of 1863, that Lincoln had written and published
and passed the Emancipation Proclamation. But
that didn't mean that Black troops were automatically
integrated into the Union Army. In fact, they
experienced a tremendous resistance wherever
they went, often segregated, even so -called
all -black companies. were commanded by a white
officer. And so it was much like Jackie Robinson
was decades later, hundreds of years later, when
he got into the baseball. People don't realize
that he wasn't a hero. He was treated more like
a goat and not the greatest of all time, obviously,
discriminated against by some of his own teammates.
The same happened with the USCT. So even though
they fought with valor and courage, places like
Port Hudson in Louisiana, Fort Wagner in South
Carolina, Several places in Virginia, including
Spotsylvania, they were discriminated against.
It was a very prejudiced atmosphere. And yet,
historians today realize that they were very
tough brunts, the USCT. They were very courageous,
tough as nails, extremely aggressive, and very
united and cohesive group. And wherever they
fought, they did a great job. They did an absolutely
great job. Well, nothing brings people together
more than being in the foxhole together. And
the colored troops that were at Fort Myers were
kind of critical to this battle, weren't they?
They represented the bulk of the people that
were there, the soldiers that were there, obviously.
And they were credited with winning the battle,
in fact. They as a result of the black troops
being there, several of them recited for bravery
and they stunned the Confederacy. The Confederacy
outnumbered them easily, but the white captain,
a guy named James Doyle in the fort. was told
to surrender because he was outnumbered and the
Confederates had a big 12 pound piece of artillery.
The Union had a couple of six pounds, that was
it. And his response was, I respectfully decline.
And he and his African -American counterparts
decided to slug it out. And after 11 hours, the
rebels simply called it quits. They did it that
night. 40 Confederates lay dead, about half a
dozen Union casualties, not much. Of course,
they had the fort to protect them, but they had
some very, very aggressive Black soldiers that
worked in and outside the fort and stunned the
hell out of these Confederates. And that's why
the Confederates ended up losing the Battle of
Fort Myers. And did this sort of end up being
a line where, OK, the We're not getting back
this territory and otherwise put a big dent,
I suppose, in the pride of the Confederacy. Well,
you put your finger on one of the greatest ironies
of the Battle of Fort Myers. Not only was it
little known and quickly forgotten, but in two
months, in less than two months, actually a month
later, about that to the battle, both sides in
the Civil War abandoned the fort. It wasn't important
anymore. And one of the reasons was even at the
time of the Battle of Fort Myers, the Confederacy
knew they were losing the war. They saw the writing
on the wall. A month later, it became very clear,
black and white, no pun intended. And of course,
General Lee surrendered the Confederacy April
9th, 1865, less about two months after the Battle
of Fort Myers. So a month later, the battle that
lasted 11 hours, it cost that many Confederate
troops. and they put the USCT on the map, so
to speak, as far as historians are concerned,
all went for nothing because both sides said,
we don't need this for it anymore. The breadbasket
for the Confederacy had pretty well dried up
anyway. And the war was just off, skipping a
jump and being all over. Well, you in your article
on this little known topic quoted the New York
Times that reported the former slaves, quote,
could hardly be restrained, close quote. They
seem totally unconscious of danger and constantly
shouted to each other to get them, close quote,
being the rebels. I hate to use the word zealous,
because that's got a broad connotation these
days. But these guys were zealous in fulfilling
their duties. And of course, some of it can be
attributed to the fact that they felt they had
to work twice as hard and be twice as effective
as their white counterparts. But I think there
was more than that. And I'm probably putting
thoughts and maybe even words into these African
-American soldiers' mouths and minds. But I think
they knew they were under the gun, so to speak.
I think they knew. that they had everything at
stake. They had a couple years ago been told
by their president that they're all free. Now
they had to fight for their freedom. And so they
fought with gallantry. They fought with a fervor
and with a fever that the white soldiers during
the Civil War did not have because they were
not fighting to free themselves. These troops,
particularly those in the Fort Myers battle,
I think they knew perfectly well. that if they
had to surrender to the Confederates, they would
go back to their former lives as slaves. And
many of those blacks in the Fort were former
slaves, and they did not want to go back. And
they're prepared to put their life on the line
to make sure they didn't go back. We're talking
to Mark Burry, who's a author, writes a lot of...
in the area of military and historical topics.
One of the things I want to put context on, because
I think, again, it's easy to kind of forget this
stuff, is that, as you said, there were up to
200 ,000 African American troops in the Civil
War. Today, uh... in the active army there's
about ninety five thousand african -americans
and they make up twenty percent of the active
duty force back in the civil war because so many
more men were involved they made up ten percent
of the army but the sheer number uh... is somewhat
staggering and easy to lose sight of when you're
not paying attention to the history Over the
over the decades, of course, the numbers have
changed. So those percentages are kind of out
of whack and now compared to what they were back
then. But and most people don't even know that.
So thanks for bringing it up, Jim. But something
else that a lot of people don't know is that
the black soldiers are. performed above and beyond
what their white counterparts did often. For
example, right now, if you go back and look at
the record, as a result of the war, there were
14 Black soldiers that received medals of honor
for valor in such places as the Battle of New
Market Heights in Virginia and elsewhere. In
total, the Black troops of the USCT were recognized
for exceptional bravery in 39 separate, but nevertheless
major engagements in the Civil War. This is an
outstanding disproportionate performance by African
-American military men. that proves their bravery,
proves their courage, and prove their zeal in
fighting not just for our country's survival,
but their own survival and their own freedom.
That's an outstanding record for any single group
in the military, in my opinion. Absolutely. One
of the things, you know, the Battle of Fort Myers
is, as we've talked about, kind of a significant
event today if Fort Myers is a thriving area,
a lot of people live there, but a lot of tourists
come through. There must be some huge recognition
of this battle and the role the black companies
from the USCT played, right? I can hear the sarcasm
dripping, my friend. No, there isn't. There's
just one, as I put in that article, one of those
ubiquitous blue signs with the yellow print,
I believe, sitting at the mark of the fort. It's
hardly noticed. It's very rarely mentioned in
the papers. In fact, I think the last time I
got some publicity is the article that I wrote.
And it's too bad. Working hard to make sure that
it's not forgotten as the sons of the American
Revolution, particularly, excuse me, not just
the sons of the American Revolution, but the
one I'm a member of also, the sons of the Union.
and veteran of the Civil War, they're all history
buffs in these organizations. And particularly
the SUVCW has tried to mark that occasion of
the Fort Myers battle every single year, tried
to get out there and perform some sort of a ceremony
with a color guard. But sometimes I think they're
swimming upstream because. We don't teach history
in schools like we used to. In fact, you might
find some public schools where history is not
even taught at all. My own granddaughters, I
love them dearly, but they came home and I found
out pretty quickly they knew more about Harriet
Tubman than they did about Abraham Lincoln. And
so the history that is taught is a bit skewered
and unfortunately, uh, battles like this that
are militarily insignificant, but in my opinion,
historically significant get lost in the shuffle.
Yeah. And it's particularly true for the communities
around which they were fought in the communities
of men who fought in them. There should be more
recognition. Let me point out that Mark is the
Patriotic instructor of the Colonel Robert W.
Bernard, camp number two of the Department of
Florida, Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil
War in Fort Myers. You can't get that on a business
card. No, but it's a high paying job. I can assure
you. I'm sure of that. Now I'm being sarcastic.
Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about what you
have written. You have a website. Folks can go
to Mark Barry. and that's B -A -R -I -E dot com
to find these books, which are on Amazon, but
they all have a little flavor of wartime efforts
in different zones. Tell us about them. Well,
I essentially either the elevator version of
this is I read about love in war so I started
backwards I started with the Civil War because
my wife was an expert genealogist waltzed into
the living room Monday and announced that I had
an ancestor that fought in the Civil War and
I got lucky and I found a diary from that same
regiment the Adirondack regiment and My first
novel was born Prior to that, my wife and I had
collaborated on a couple of local history books.
I had done a couple of biographies back when
we lived in upstate New York, right along the
Canadian border. But when I moved to Florida,
this was about 11 years ago, I thought I'd never
write anything again, but that's when she announced
this ancestor. So I wrote the book, had a lot
of fun, and I'll warn you if there's a book in
your gym, if not already, that when you write
your first book, of your loved ones and your
relatives and your friends and neighbors will
tell us a wonderful book. I couldn't put it down,
but you as a first time author are suffering
from this syndrome called imposter syndrome.
I felt I was an imposter, but then the darn book
won a couple of awards. And then my massive ego
took over. And then after that Civil War book
came a love story about the Revolutionary War,
about a nun who leaves the combat and ends up
spying for George Washington and the War of 1812,
which is set in the area where I come from in
Plattsburgh, New York, right along the border.
That's about a girl disguised as a boy who ends
up on the Commodore's flagship during one of
the most important naval battles of the War of
1812. After that, I was going to do a book on
the Spanish -American War. I never got past the
mysterious explosion of the USS Maine. So the
entire book is about the mysterious explosion.
And I'm egotistical enough to tell you that my
conclusions as to who and what caused that mysterious
explosion made a couple of headlines in a few
local newspapers. I had a lot of fun writing
that. Even though that too was a love story,
it's historically accurate, extremely accurate.
And the most recent book published last year
is about World War I, about a nurse from Newfoundland,
Canada. Well, back then it wasn't Canada, it
was the country of Newfoundland who volunteered
as a nurse and ended up in one of the most grisly,
horrifying wars in the history of mankind, World
War I. So it's been a lot of fun. Well, this
is an area called historical fiction, right?
But being accurate on the history is... Not only
part of the challenge, but part of the beauty
because this is how you get maybe somebody who
otherwise wouldn't read a dry history book engaged
in finding out what happened in the Civil War
or in Havana or in World War one to this nurse
so Historical fiction is you know it stays here.
I think Well, you just hit the nail on the head
and it's taken authors and readers a long time
to figure that out. When you write, in my case,
historical fiction, but I like to call it historical
romance because there is the love side of that
story. Your historical narrative must be extremely
accurate because I sell most of my books in person.
I go all over Florida. I think last year I did
25 speaking gigs. all over Florida. And there's
usually one history buff in the room. And if
you've made a mistake, they'll correct you very
quickly. In fact, as an aside, I was talking
about the Civil War once. And this little lady
got up in the back of the room and she said,
Sonny, down here, we don't call it the Civil
War. We call it the War of Northern Aggression.
Well, as we were going through this time. discussion
today. I'm thinking, okay, I think I've just
ticked off all the listeners south of the Mason
-Dixon line. Yeah, they're very serious. And
I've made other mistakes. I don't know if that
was a real mistake, but I can remember it in
the first time I got the first 100 books in my
Civil War novel. And I discovered that in...
Whatever page number it was, I talked about a
famous escape at Libby Prison in Virginia. And
I talked about how the prisoners had this piece
of... Rubber sheet that they used to put air
into the tunnel and then a hundred page later
the rubber sheet turned into a plastic sheet
Which of course wasn't invented for another hundred
some odd years And boy was that pointed out pretty
quick and there was a panic call to my publisher
and make make my long story longer Even though
it's historical romance, even though it's historical
fiction every single historical fact that can
possibly be Googled or chat -upted or whatever
the hell it's called is accurate. For example,
in the Civil War book, you read a section where
Lincoln goes to the soldier's home and visits
prisoners. And except for the conversations,
which you can take some liberties with, he was
there. Trust me, he'd been there. That's what
he did all the time. He visited the wounded soldiers.
Any historical figure, any historical event,
in a book, even though it's called historical
romance or historical fiction, must be accurate.
I'm very proud to say in all five of my my historical
novels is extremely accurate. I would define
them if you find a mistake. Now, I'll probably
live to regret that, but I don't think there's
even a mistake. Well, it's a genre I really enjoy
reading. I hope our veteran radio listeners will
tune into your books. You can find them on Amazon.
You can find the whole. genre of historical fiction
there as well. And it's a great way to get introduced
to some of these battles and concepts and what
was going on back then, the history that you
were never taught. but also wrapped in a way
that will make it maybe a little more interesting,
maybe keep you a little more engaged as a historical
romance novel. Well, I agree with that. And when
I go all over and speak, I don't talk about my
books. I don't know why anybody would want to
listen to me talk about my books. I talk about
my research. And nine times out of ten, I'm talking
about What we've been talking about little known
historical facts and many people find interesting
sometimes fascinating absolutely fascinating
and i'm gonna i don't know how much time we got
left but jim i'll leave you with a real quick
story about an african american the african the
highest officer in the history of the the civil
war uh that uh happened to be african american
his name was uh alexander alexander thomas augustus
last name was augusta and believe it or not he
was a surgeon And he was his initial acceptance
in the army was revoked for a couple reasons.
Number one, he was a black man. And number two,
he had lived for 10 years in Canada, which back
then was considered was British controlled. So
he was considered a British subject. And so they
said, no, you can't join the army. Well, he refused
that answer. He wrote to President Lincoln himself
and asked that the medical board reverse their
decision. Lincoln agreed with them. The medical
board changed their mind. They honored Augusta's
initial acceptance. They made him a major and
the head surgeon in the seventh U .S. colored
infantry. Years later, he would advocate for
equal pay for African American soldiers. He wrote
a letter of complaint to Senator Wilson back
then. They raised his salary to the appropriate
level and all of the other commissioned officers,
too. And near the end of the war, guess what?
He was awarded the honorary rank of lieutenant
colonel, and he became the highest black officer
in the US military at the time. And around 1865,
a president by the name of Lincoln, along with
his wife, invited him to the White House, and
he became the first African American ever to
visit the White House. End of trivia, end of
story, and I'm sure you listeners will appreciate
that. No, again, this is why we do this, Mark,
and we don't want to forget this kind of history.
It's so important. We appreciate the time that
you've given us today, Mark Berry. I send folks
to your website, markberry .com, learn more about
what he's writing. He probably has another book
or two in him I can just tell by the energy,
so. I am. I'm working on one about the Russian
Revolution of 1917. There you go. If you like
Dr. Cervago, you'll like this book. Oh, great.
Mark, thanks for your time today. Thank you.
Appreciate it. And I want to thank everybody
for listening to Veterans Radio today. I am Jim
Fossone. It's been a pleasure to be your host.
I'm a Veterans disability lawyer at Legal Help
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