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We just want to remind you that Veterans 00:01:34.280 --> 00:01:39.340 Radio podcasts are available on all your favorite 00:01:39.340 --> 00:01:43.359 streaming platforms including RSS .com, Apple 00:01:43.359 --> 00:01:48.230 Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Podcasts, I Heart 00:01:48.230 --> 00:01:52.329 Radio, and Reeves Across America Radio. So wherever 00:01:52.329 --> 00:01:55.870 you are, you can find us, whether it's on your 00:01:55.870 --> 00:01:58.269 mobile phone or your computer or your laptop, 00:01:58.370 --> 00:02:02.010 your tablet, but listen in to Veterans Radio 00:02:02.010 --> 00:02:04.750 Podcasts. We post something new every week and 00:02:04.750 --> 00:02:07.750 you're going to find it informative. We want 00:02:07.750 --> 00:02:11.599 to welcome to Veterans Radio. A Marine, Trevor 00:02:11.599 --> 00:02:15.659 Reed. Trevor, welcome to Veterans Radio. Hey, 00:02:15.659 --> 00:02:18.300 thank you for having me. Well, you have a book 00:02:18.300 --> 00:02:22.060 out detailing a portion of your life that kind 00:02:22.060 --> 00:02:24.780 of reads like, I can't believe you lived to write 00:02:24.780 --> 00:02:27.460 about this. And the book is called Retribution, 00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:30.500 A U .S. Marine's Fight for Justice, From the 00:02:30.500 --> 00:02:34.360 Russian Gulag to Ukraine's Frontlines, coming 00:02:34.360 --> 00:02:38.680 out here in January of 2026. Let's do a little 00:02:38.680 --> 00:02:41.520 bit about your marine time because it layers 00:02:41.520 --> 00:02:44.599 back into some of the problems you had in Russia 00:02:44.599 --> 00:02:47.919 Tell us how a nice kid like you ended up in the 00:02:47.919 --> 00:02:52.780 Marines and some of your duty stations Sure, 00:02:52.900 --> 00:02:59.120 I guess we could go Way back but You know whenever 00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:04.020 I was a kid I think I wanted to be like a detective 00:03:04.020 --> 00:03:10.469 with my pet dog And then September 11th happened. 00:03:12.469 --> 00:03:16.750 And shortly thereafter, there was all of the 00:03:16.750 --> 00:03:21.909 footage from Afghanistan and Iraq. And I really 00:03:21.909 --> 00:03:27.990 started to want to go into the military. And 00:03:27.990 --> 00:03:30.689 later I found out that my dad had been a Marine. 00:03:32.799 --> 00:03:35.939 You know that was enough for me. I decided that's 00:03:35.939 --> 00:03:41.060 what I was gonna do after high school I did Like 00:03:41.060 --> 00:03:45.379 one semester at a community college After high 00:03:45.379 --> 00:03:47.860 school and I decided okay now this wasn't for 00:03:47.860 --> 00:03:54.819 me and so I enlisted I went into the Marine Corps 00:03:54.819 --> 00:04:02.520 in 2011 And then in boot camp I got selected, 00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:06.919 uh, to, to become part of the presidential support 00:04:06.919 --> 00:04:12.020 program program. And, uh, went through that whole 00:04:12.020 --> 00:04:16.860 process, went through infantry school. Um, then 00:04:16.860 --> 00:04:19.360 they sent me to additional training at security 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:24.199 forces school. And then onto eighth and I, uh, 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:31.279 where are like pre pre -duty, um, you know, Selection 00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:34.540 was to guard the commandant and the commandant's 00:04:34.540 --> 00:04:37.899 house there at the Marine Corps Barracks, Washington 00:04:37.899 --> 00:04:43.759 so after my clearance processed I got sent to 00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:49.660 Camp David and I did that for about 18 months 00:04:49.660 --> 00:04:54.180 Met the president there got a couple of photos 00:04:54.180 --> 00:04:56.360 with the president. It was President Obama at 00:04:56.360 --> 00:05:04.370 the time and Afterwards, after 18 months, you 00:05:04.370 --> 00:05:07.430 get basically to choose your next duty station. 00:05:08.029 --> 00:05:11.730 So I chose to go to the Fleet Marine Force at 00:05:11.730 --> 00:05:14.189 3rd Battalion 1st Marines at Camp Pendleton, 00:05:14.370 --> 00:05:20.470 which was my dad's old unit. Did one deployment 00:05:20.470 --> 00:05:25.089 with the 15th MEU to Southeast Asia, the Middle 00:05:25.089 --> 00:05:30.490 East, Africa. I think I only had a month remaining 00:05:30.490 --> 00:05:34.810 on my contract whenever I got out. And then shortly 00:05:34.810 --> 00:05:39.750 thereafter, I got hired by Academy, formerly 00:05:39.750 --> 00:05:46.790 known as Blackwater, to be a contractor for the 00:05:46.790 --> 00:05:51.329 Diplomatic Security Service in Afghanistan. You 00:05:51.329 --> 00:05:55.550 ultimately got out of that aspect of your life 00:05:55.550 --> 00:05:59.560 and went on to school. Tell us a little bit about 00:05:59.560 --> 00:06:02.199 the international studies and the languages that 00:06:02.199 --> 00:06:05.600 you were looking into, because this all leads 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:10.399 you to going to meet a woman you met online in 00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:12.579 Russia. So you got to kind of get us, how did 00:06:12.579 --> 00:06:15.600 we get from that phase of life over to the next? 00:06:16.980 --> 00:06:22.279 Sure. So I actually met Lena when I was contracting, 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:27.720 when I was in Afghanistan. Lot of guys would 00:06:27.720 --> 00:06:31.319 stay out of the US for most of the year because 00:06:31.319 --> 00:06:35.300 you get a tax break if you stay out of the US 00:06:35.300 --> 00:06:39.019 for so many days and A lot of these guys would 00:06:39.019 --> 00:06:42.060 just go to Europe somewhere And you know meet 00:06:42.060 --> 00:06:46.899 up with girls. They have met online so I met 00:06:46.899 --> 00:06:51.180 Lena who was from Moscow. Well, actually she's 00:06:51.180 --> 00:06:56.240 from Volgograd, but she lived in Moscow and We 00:06:56.240 --> 00:07:03.240 started talking during that time and she wanted 00:07:03.240 --> 00:07:07.699 me to come visit Russia but I was pretty nervous 00:07:07.699 --> 00:07:10.740 about going to Russia. She was too nervous to 00:07:10.740 --> 00:07:13.019 come to the United States so we ended up meeting 00:07:13.019 --> 00:07:19.540 in Greece. I fell in love there immediately and 00:07:19.540 --> 00:07:26.689 then after that we started Relationship which 00:07:26.689 --> 00:07:31.430 lasted for ultimately for years, but You know 00:07:31.430 --> 00:07:33.870 most of the time I was in the US and most the 00:07:33.870 --> 00:07:36.009 time she was in Russia so we would just have 00:07:36.009 --> 00:07:39.269 to kind of Come visit whenever our schedules 00:07:39.269 --> 00:07:44.069 lined up I got hurt in Afghanistan. I had to 00:07:44.069 --> 00:07:47.689 come back to the US for surgery for spinal fusion 00:07:47.689 --> 00:07:52.699 and During that time I figured okay. Well, I 00:07:52.699 --> 00:07:55.060 should you know get my studies out of the way 00:07:55.060 --> 00:08:00.019 while I'm back home here in Texas, so I went 00:08:00.019 --> 00:08:05.439 to the University of North Texas and Had planned 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:08.360 on transferring to the Bush School of Government 00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:12.639 at Texas A &M but for that degree program they 00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:16.199 wanted me to have two years of a foreign language 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:21.269 already completed and so You know my plan was 00:08:21.269 --> 00:08:25.009 okay. I'll go to Moscow in the summer. I Will 00:08:25.009 --> 00:08:27.389 study this all summer and then maybe I can test 00:08:27.389 --> 00:08:32.149 out of a year and a half or so of Russian It 00:08:32.149 --> 00:08:34.169 makes ultimate sense, right? I'm gonna go to 00:08:34.169 --> 00:08:36.590 Russia. I'm gonna see you with Lena I'm gonna 00:08:36.590 --> 00:08:39.690 pick up the Russian language. All of this is 00:08:39.690 --> 00:08:41.809 well planned out. Isn't it Trevor? I mean it 00:08:41.809 --> 00:08:46.330 it just makes sense. Nothing could go wrong Yeah, 00:08:46.450 --> 00:08:50.490 I did have some reservations about going at the 00:08:50.490 --> 00:08:58.409 very last minute. Because former US Marine or 00:08:58.409 --> 00:09:00.830 US Marine veteran, I should say there's no former 00:09:00.830 --> 00:09:05.669 US Marines, but Paul Whelan was wrongfully detained 00:09:05.669 --> 00:09:10.009 shortly before I went there. But there wasn't 00:09:10.009 --> 00:09:15.409 a lot of information about that yet. And Russia 00:09:15.409 --> 00:09:20.370 hadn't started to practice hostage diplomacy 00:09:20.370 --> 00:09:25.230 until Paul Wieland. And this is where you really 00:09:25.230 --> 00:09:28.809 get caught up in this. You're in Moscow, you 00:09:28.809 --> 00:09:33.610 get yourself at a going away party, get yourself 00:09:33.610 --> 00:09:37.029 a little inebriated, the local police pick you 00:09:37.029 --> 00:09:43.360 up, and now you're in this web of... a Russian 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:48.399 legal system that is nothing like you've ever 00:09:48.399 --> 00:09:50.659 experienced, certainly nothing, and this was 00:09:50.659 --> 00:09:54.980 the fascinating part of the book for me, was 00:09:54.980 --> 00:09:58.700 this whole, really amounts to like three years 00:09:58.700 --> 00:10:01.220 or four years of your life, where you're caught 00:10:01.220 --> 00:10:08.580 up in this Russian web of legal system, sentencing, 00:10:09.460 --> 00:10:13.879 time in prison, This is why you should read the 00:10:13.879 --> 00:10:16.740 book folks Retribution a US Marines fight for 00:10:16.740 --> 00:10:19.960 justice from the Russian Gulag to Ukraine's front 00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:24.360 lines But I don't know how you even tell a little 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:27.519 bit of this story to our listeners Trevor, but 00:10:27.519 --> 00:10:34.019 give it a try Sure, I guess I'll start off whenever 00:10:34.019 --> 00:10:39.110 I was detained so it's not actually illegal to 00:10:39.110 --> 00:10:43.029 be drunk in public in Russia. I think that's 00:10:43.029 --> 00:10:46.309 more of like a national pastime. But exactly, 00:10:46.529 --> 00:10:51.830 exactly. And I don't think the police wanted, 00:10:51.830 --> 00:10:53.909 you know, the role that they would ultimately 00:10:53.909 --> 00:10:56.529 play in this. I did actually get the opportunity 00:10:56.529 --> 00:10:59.690 to talk to them later about this, but they took 00:10:59.690 --> 00:11:03.769 me to the police station basically to sober up. 00:11:03.769 --> 00:11:08.730 And in the morning I was free to leave. I didn't 00:11:08.730 --> 00:11:12.929 think that I could get home to Lena's apartment. 00:11:13.490 --> 00:11:16.309 So you understand, like my phone only had, I 00:11:16.309 --> 00:11:21.250 could only use my phone with wifi. And I didn't 00:11:21.250 --> 00:11:25.129 speak Russian well enough yet to be able to get 00:11:25.129 --> 00:11:29.830 back, I thought. So I asked the police lieutenant 00:11:29.830 --> 00:11:33.309 for wifi and she said, yeah, sure, you can use 00:11:33.309 --> 00:11:35.149 our wifi, but I already called your girlfriend. 00:11:35.149 --> 00:11:38.600 She's coming to get you. So foolishly, I stayed 00:11:38.600 --> 00:11:41.600 there in the lobby. I wasn't like in a cell or 00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:45.399 in handcuffs or arrested or anything. She said 00:11:45.399 --> 00:11:49.399 I had slept on the floor in her office. But I 00:11:49.399 --> 00:11:53.580 waited, I think it only took maybe like 10 minutes 00:11:53.580 --> 00:11:56.860 for Lena to get there. But during that 10 minute 00:11:56.860 --> 00:12:00.340 time, the shift changed. And when the new police 00:12:00.340 --> 00:12:02.840 chief came in, he asked, why is there an American 00:12:02.840 --> 00:12:06.639 lobby? And after he talked to them, he was like, 00:12:06.759 --> 00:12:10.559 okay, you're detained. So they told me I couldn't 00:12:10.559 --> 00:12:14.759 leave. And then he called to, I don't know what 00:12:14.759 --> 00:12:16.480 this word would be in English, but they said 00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:20.320 the chief of FSB, which I think is the director 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:27.720 of FSB in English. So after that FSB came, they 00:12:27.720 --> 00:12:31.500 attempted to interrogate me about my service. 00:12:31.899 --> 00:12:34.100 They didn't ask if I committed a crime or anything 00:12:34.100 --> 00:12:38.639 like that. And then once they were finished, 00:12:39.179 --> 00:12:41.899 I think that's when they decided, okay, we're 00:12:41.899 --> 00:12:47.220 gonna use this guy. Somebody up the chain in 00:12:47.220 --> 00:12:49.899 Russian intelligence said, oh, we've got another 00:12:49.899 --> 00:12:54.320 Marine. Let's hang on to them. There's some value 00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:57.519 there and this puts you into a crazy legal system 00:12:57.519 --> 00:13:03.049 which is described in the book and how the trial 00:13:03.049 --> 00:13:07.809 goes, how the lawyers, and it turns out Lena's 00:13:07.809 --> 00:13:11.169 interested in the law, interning at a Russian 00:13:11.169 --> 00:13:13.690 law firm, how they try to help, and I'm not sure 00:13:13.690 --> 00:13:17.129 if it does, right? How your dad comes over to 00:13:17.129 --> 00:13:19.350 try to help, and one of the things he tries to 00:13:19.350 --> 00:13:23.509 help with is just proving up, you're a good guy, 00:13:23.669 --> 00:13:26.559 you're just a solid, you know. you weren't a 00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:29.440 spy, you weren't this or that, and he gives, 00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:33.379 and ultimately makes its way to the court, a 00:13:33.379 --> 00:13:36.399 picture of you in Marine dress at Camp David, 00:13:36.440 --> 00:13:40.059 I assume, with President Obama, which then just 00:13:40.059 --> 00:13:43.679 becomes, see, we knew he was a big deal, and 00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:48.240 more than just a little humble Marine. You get 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:50.580 sentenced to what, five years, three years? How 00:13:50.580 --> 00:13:54.700 long were you sentenced? Oh no, they, uh, they 00:13:54.700 --> 00:13:59.659 sentenced me to nine years. Oh boy. Yeah. Um, 00:13:59.919 --> 00:14:01.940 that was actually the longest sentence that they 00:14:01.940 --> 00:14:08.139 had ever given out for, uh, assault on police 00:14:08.139 --> 00:14:11.899 officers with serious bodily harm is basically 00:14:11.899 --> 00:14:18.080 the made up charge. Yeah. But just so you know, 00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:21.080 like obviously the police weren't injured because 00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:26.049 I didn't assault them. Um, and they, you know, 00:14:26.110 --> 00:14:30.389 they, they looked at all of this evidence and 00:14:30.389 --> 00:14:34.269 it seemed like the trial was going pretty well. 00:14:34.309 --> 00:14:37.389 I think the judge knew like, okay, this guy didn't 00:14:37.389 --> 00:14:42.389 do anything. Um, but in the end, it didn't matter 00:14:42.389 --> 00:14:45.429 on the very last day before I was sentenced, 00:14:45.429 --> 00:14:50.240 I think. Somebody probably called him and told 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:54.740 him or he called somebody because the next day 00:14:54.740 --> 00:14:56.980 he came into court and he read the sentence. 00:14:57.220 --> 00:15:00.360 His hands were shaking and you could tell he 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:04.159 was not the same judge that had been presiding 00:15:04.159 --> 00:15:05.980 over the case. Well, you really have to read 00:15:05.980 --> 00:15:08.320 the book because as you go through it, you're 00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:10.639 telling me about, you know, the book talks about 00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:13.500 you relate how the cops can't. the police, if 00:15:13.500 --> 00:15:16.100 you will, can't get their story straight. They 00:15:16.100 --> 00:15:18.539 got to come up with this, you know, attack and 00:15:18.539 --> 00:15:20.440 grievous bodily harm, but they can't even get 00:15:20.440 --> 00:15:24.000 that story straight. So, yeah, you really end 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:27.179 up going, okay, this was somebody up the chain 00:15:27.179 --> 00:15:31.480 said, hang on to this guy, and they send you 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:38.049 off to. Russian gulag and the story there is 00:15:38.049 --> 00:15:41.870 again amazing insight into what goes on in Russian 00:15:41.870 --> 00:15:46.269 prisons The words that this isn't the right word 00:15:46.269 --> 00:15:48.850 you can fix it for me here, but like there's 00:15:48.850 --> 00:15:50.950 a prison mafia I don't I don't know what the 00:15:50.950 --> 00:15:53.429 Russian term for is I don't recall how does I 00:15:53.429 --> 00:15:56.330 wouldn't know how to pronounce it but you you 00:15:56.330 --> 00:16:00.730 have to get their respect because they really 00:16:00.730 --> 00:16:05.990 run the place and You make a an amazing decision 00:16:05.990 --> 00:16:09.070 to say I'm not cooperating and that leads to 00:16:09.070 --> 00:16:13.169 a whole series of problems, doesn't it? Right 00:16:13.169 --> 00:16:18.370 First I just wanted to be clear to the the picture 00:16:18.370 --> 00:16:20.330 with the president, you know, initially I was 00:16:20.330 --> 00:16:27.549 really angry with my My my parents my dad mostly 00:16:27.549 --> 00:16:30.740 for giving the court that I'm more angry with 00:16:30.740 --> 00:16:32.779 the state department because they ultimately, 00:16:32.779 --> 00:16:36.080 you know, handed that to the court. I don't think 00:16:36.080 --> 00:16:39.559 that actually played a role. I found out much 00:16:39.559 --> 00:16:44.139 later that pretty much as soon as they had detained 00:16:44.139 --> 00:16:47.460 me, they had sort of asked the United States, 00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:50.059 you know, hey, would you like to make an exchange 00:16:50.059 --> 00:16:54.320 for this guy? So. I don't think that ultimately 00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:56.720 affected anything, but I was really concerned. 00:16:57.379 --> 00:17:01.320 um about that at the time when i got to the when 00:17:01.320 --> 00:17:03.519 i was convicted and sent to the forced labor 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:09.779 camp um you know i knew from talking to other 00:17:09.779 --> 00:17:13.380 other prisoners that mardovia had especially 00:17:13.380 --> 00:17:17.299 hard prisons and i told them you know hey i'm 00:17:17.299 --> 00:17:20.559 not gonna i'm not gonna cooperate i'm not gonna 00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:23.700 do um any of the stuff they want me to do i'm 00:17:23.700 --> 00:17:29.460 not gonna work there um And they said, Oh, well, 00:17:29.460 --> 00:17:32.859 we have some, some guys that do that, but, you 00:17:32.859 --> 00:17:35.400 know, they're going to be, they're going to be 00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:38.039 furious and they're going to try to break you 00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:41.980 so that you will do all of this stuff. And I 00:17:41.980 --> 00:17:45.660 told them that that wasn't going to matter. Um, 00:17:45.660 --> 00:17:48.519 and when I got to the prison camp, you know, 00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:52.559 the guy, the guy asked, you said, are we going 00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:56.000 to have any problems with you? And he's standing 00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:01.240 there. Um, kind of smirking and I'm very sure 00:18:01.240 --> 00:18:05.740 that the response that he normally got was no, 00:18:05.740 --> 00:18:09.180 of course not. That's what the old guy, uh, who 00:18:09.180 --> 00:18:12.500 was there with me for the intake side. And I 00:18:12.500 --> 00:18:15.160 said, yeah, you're going to have it. And he said, 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:17.859 what? And I said, yeah, I'm not going to do any 00:18:17.859 --> 00:18:20.480 of your stuff. I'm not going to follow your regime 00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:23.799 and I'm not going to work. And he said, okay, 00:18:23.960 --> 00:18:28.019 well then we're going to punish you. Actually, 00:18:28.019 --> 00:18:30.180 he threatened me. I'm not going to say exactly 00:18:30.180 --> 00:18:34.299 what he said that's in the book, but I said, 00:18:34.619 --> 00:18:36.920 okay, well, that's not going to make a difference. 00:18:38.339 --> 00:18:40.220 And, you know, his response was kind of, we'll 00:18:40.220 --> 00:18:48.980 see. So shortly after being there, they started 00:18:48.980 --> 00:18:55.809 to put me into solitary confinement and Mean 00:18:55.809 --> 00:19:02.910 the conditions there were not Not good, so it's 00:19:02.910 --> 00:19:07.630 mostly a concrete floor There's like a little 00:19:07.630 --> 00:19:12.849 sink like a steel sink I think Bench that's bolted 00:19:12.849 --> 00:19:17.430 into the ground and then you have the Basically 00:19:17.430 --> 00:19:20.069 your rock that kind of like folds out of the 00:19:20.069 --> 00:19:25.910 wall and it has wooden planks And then at night 00:19:25.910 --> 00:19:31.450 what they'll do is they'll bring in a foam pad 00:19:31.450 --> 00:19:35.609 kind of thing, which is your bed. And then in 00:19:35.609 --> 00:19:38.250 the morning they take that away and then they 00:19:38.250 --> 00:19:42.009 fold the bed up into the wall and then they lock 00:19:42.009 --> 00:19:44.410 it there with a padlock so you don't have anything 00:19:44.410 --> 00:19:51.049 to lay on in the day. And the big issue there 00:19:51.049 --> 00:19:56.549 was Is that in the winter they use the cold as 00:19:56.549 --> 00:19:59.130 like a weapon against you to try to break you 00:19:59.130 --> 00:20:03.789 so. It would be probably nearly freezing in there 00:20:03.789 --> 00:20:07.549 if not freezing sometimes and they wouldn't allow 00:20:07.549 --> 00:20:09.910 you to wear any warming layers or anything like 00:20:09.910 --> 00:20:14.329 that so. You know my day mostly consisted of 00:20:14.329 --> 00:20:18.630 just kind of snuggling with this hot water pipe. 00:20:20.039 --> 00:20:24.000 to stay warm and then after about an hour, you 00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:26.220 know, my back would start to freeze. So I would 00:20:26.220 --> 00:20:29.740 rotate over to put my back against the hot water 00:20:29.740 --> 00:20:33.200 pipe and then just do this for a while. Um, the 00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:37.799 rest of the day, I kind of walk in circles and 00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:41.319 then tie, uh, like a shirt that I had snuck in 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:43.579 there around my head is like a makeshift kind 00:20:43.579 --> 00:20:47.039 of hood. It's really, it's really just as I read 00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:50.339 the book, uh, Trevor, it's just like, Day -to 00:20:50.339 --> 00:20:54.839 -day survival. How do I get through today? And 00:20:54.839 --> 00:20:56.640 I guess when you're facing nine years, you have 00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:00.720 to approach it that way. And because of the limitations 00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:03.900 of time, I'm gonna move on to two other issues. 00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:07.039 One is, and you mentioned it at the top, this 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:12.880 prisoner swap that Russia seems to use US citizens 00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:15.119 as bargaining chips to get some of their guys 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:19.500 back or spies back, whatever it might be. People 00:21:19.500 --> 00:21:21.940 will remember the name Brittany Greiner who was 00:21:21.940 --> 00:21:26.779 a women's basketball player who got picked up 00:21:26.779 --> 00:21:31.359 on a marijuana vaping or something and ultimately 00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:35.000 was part of a swap. And Paul Whalen who was a 00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:37.279 US Marine veteran, a businessman was over there 00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:39.579 I think for a wedding and he gets picked up, 00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:44.319 this is I think before you, and becomes part, 00:21:44.700 --> 00:21:47.039 it takes a long time before he becomes part of 00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:51.839 a prisoner swap. This goes on today. I just picked 00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:56.559 up this week an article about a man by the name 00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:58.980 of Charles Zimmerman who was handed a five -year 00:21:58.980 --> 00:22:04.480 sentence at a Black Sea resort. They found a 00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:08.759 rifle on his yacht. He had sailed into that port 00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:12.319 to meet a woman he had met online. The rifle 00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:15.940 was on the. the boat, the yacht. He wasn't bringing 00:22:15.940 --> 00:22:18.240 it on shore. He was using it for self -defense. 00:22:18.740 --> 00:22:20.519 And they said, oh, well, now you've violated 00:22:20.519 --> 00:22:24.299 our laws. He's now tied up in that system for 00:22:24.299 --> 00:22:27.240 five years. And five years from now, he'll probably 00:22:27.240 --> 00:22:32.980 be in a prisoner swap. But this is sort of the 00:22:32.980 --> 00:22:35.440 only way out early, isn't it, out of that nine 00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:41.180 -year sentence? It was, yeah. There was basically 00:22:41.180 --> 00:22:45.869 no way I was going to get out without that and 00:22:45.869 --> 00:22:50.450 you know in addition to that my thought was that 00:22:50.450 --> 00:22:52.529 they would probably just keep adding charges 00:22:52.529 --> 00:22:57.930 on to me and basically keep me there forever. 00:22:58.349 --> 00:23:00.309 I don't know what charges those would have been 00:23:00.309 --> 00:23:03.069 but you know they made up the first set they 00:23:03.069 --> 00:23:06.430 can make up some more. Now what year did you 00:23:06.430 --> 00:23:11.890 get did they slap you out? Uh, that was in 2022 00:23:11.890 --> 00:23:16.930 in April. And my parents, you know, they did 00:23:16.930 --> 00:23:21.289 this massive campaign, um, you know, with the 00:23:21.289 --> 00:23:25.869 news media, with our congressmen, um, with the 00:23:25.869 --> 00:23:30.269 Senate. And eventually that led to a meeting 00:23:30.269 --> 00:23:33.470 with President Biden at the White House. And, 00:23:33.470 --> 00:23:37.089 you know, he made the decision of, okay, we were 00:23:37.089 --> 00:23:40.910 going to I was in really bad health by that point. 00:23:42.190 --> 00:23:44.230 I don't think I would have lived more than a 00:23:44.230 --> 00:23:49.589 few more months after the point where I was exchanged. 00:23:49.950 --> 00:23:54.970 I weighed about 120 pounds. When I came back, 00:23:56.069 --> 00:24:00.470 I had lost nearly 50 pounds of mostly muscle. 00:24:02.289 --> 00:24:05.509 And you come, you get back, and I've got to speed 00:24:05.509 --> 00:24:08.069 this up again, because again, this is one of 00:24:08.069 --> 00:24:10.630 these stories when each chapter's like, I can't 00:24:10.630 --> 00:24:12.970 believe he lived through this. You gotta come 00:24:12.970 --> 00:24:16.690 back, you gotta get healthy, you've got to put 00:24:16.690 --> 00:24:20.329 on weight, put on muscle, mentally get back in 00:24:20.329 --> 00:24:25.069 shape, emotionally. But at some point, you make 00:24:25.069 --> 00:24:29.049 this decision that you're gonna go to Ukraine. 00:24:30.580 --> 00:24:35.640 to fight with them to, if you will, kill Russian 00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:41.180 soldiers as part of your retribution for what 00:24:41.180 --> 00:24:44.019 you were put through? Tell us about that phase 00:24:44.019 --> 00:24:52.319 of life. Yeah, I knew whenever I was in prison 00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:56.779 at a certain point that my goal was no longer 00:24:56.779 --> 00:24:59.869 to just survive there, but if I ever made it 00:24:59.869 --> 00:25:04.730 out of there. I was going to make them pay for 00:25:04.730 --> 00:25:08.769 stealing those years for me and my family. Not 00:25:08.769 --> 00:25:11.269 just that, but also for doing that to the United 00:25:11.269 --> 00:25:13.009 States, because they were doing this to other 00:25:13.009 --> 00:25:18.269 Americans as well, especially friends. So when 00:25:18.269 --> 00:25:22.769 Russia invaded Ukraine, I was in the forced labor 00:25:22.769 --> 00:25:28.730 camp. And I actually Wasn't in solitary confinement 00:25:28.730 --> 00:25:32.269 that day. So I saw that happen and I knew Okay, 00:25:32.289 --> 00:25:34.349 if I ever get out of here, I'm gonna go help 00:25:34.349 --> 00:25:38.170 the Ukrainians fight them It wasn't just solely 00:25:38.170 --> 00:25:42.250 for revenge. It was also You know, I felt that 00:25:42.250 --> 00:25:46.269 the Russian government needed to You know have 00:25:46.269 --> 00:25:49.329 a cost imposed on them for hostage diplomacy 00:25:49.329 --> 00:25:52.849 and then also the fact that I knew what the Ukrainians 00:25:52.849 --> 00:25:56.700 were going through and I knew With my training 00:25:56.700 --> 00:26:01.559 and experience I could help them And that's it 00:26:01.559 --> 00:26:04.019 was not an easy road to get there because again 00:26:04.019 --> 00:26:06.480 you have physically emotionally have to recover 00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:09.440 Then you have to find your way into Ukraine and 00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:13.779 a unit to fight with but that gets accomplished 00:26:13.779 --> 00:26:17.720 and How long are you in Ukraine as a fighter? 00:26:19.900 --> 00:26:27.160 I went to Ukraine on November 1st 2022 So I think 00:26:27.160 --> 00:26:32.579 around six months after I was released My buddies 00:26:32.579 --> 00:26:35.480 there in North Texas that I served us in the 00:26:35.480 --> 00:26:38.680 Marine Corps They helped me to get back in shape 00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:43.279 and then get back my combat abilities I went 00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:48.740 November 1st. I Had a little bit of trouble at 00:26:48.740 --> 00:26:51.940 first finding a unit to fight with because all 00:26:51.940 --> 00:26:55.450 of the guys that i had planned to meet were wounded 00:26:55.450 --> 00:27:02.670 in combat just before i arrived um so after that 00:27:02.670 --> 00:27:06.369 i did a special operations training course which 00:27:06.369 --> 00:27:10.410 was about 10 weeks i think might have been 12 00:27:10.410 --> 00:27:15.309 um after that i had to get a security clearance 00:27:15.309 --> 00:27:19.630 processed i ended up going to another unit during 00:27:19.630 --> 00:27:22.150 that time because the security clearance was 00:27:22.150 --> 00:27:25.809 taking too long, had to redo the security clearance 00:27:25.809 --> 00:27:31.130 and then once I received that, I think the day 00:27:31.130 --> 00:27:36.289 after I arrived at my unit we began combat operations 00:27:36.289 --> 00:27:42.930 and we did that for months and months. And through 00:27:42.930 --> 00:27:49.480 this process, internally, emotionally, You're 00:27:49.480 --> 00:27:53.980 in fighting in Ukraine against Russians. I mean, 00:27:54.119 --> 00:27:57.980 do you feel like, okay, I'm accomplishing what 00:27:57.980 --> 00:28:02.200 I wanted to accomplish through these actions? 00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:06.579 Where do you end up emotionally during this period? 00:28:08.619 --> 00:28:14.039 You know, I thought it would be in combat. You 00:28:14.039 --> 00:28:16.779 know directly engaging the Russians and I would 00:28:16.779 --> 00:28:19.539 feel something like that, but it actually wasn't 00:28:19.539 --> 00:28:25.000 so the first The first night that I was in Dunbass 00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:28.400 At the safe house when I arrived at my unit there 00:28:28.400 --> 00:28:34.839 to rogue team That was when I had that moment 00:28:34.839 --> 00:28:38.339 where it was just this just complete calm and 00:28:38.339 --> 00:28:42.740 serenity and I was like, okay, I made it here 00:28:42.740 --> 00:28:47.150 and Like I'm gonna do what I came here to do 00:28:47.150 --> 00:28:51.630 And you know live or die Like I took my life 00:28:51.630 --> 00:28:55.349 back from the Russians. I didn't let them you 00:28:55.349 --> 00:29:01.589 know when and I'm gonna I'm gonna be able to 00:29:01.589 --> 00:29:04.750 to move on. So that was it just just finally 00:29:04.750 --> 00:29:09.930 getting there I slept for nine hours after that 00:29:09.930 --> 00:29:13.750 and you know before that I was only able to sleep 00:29:13.750 --> 00:29:19.029 for three or four hours a day. You're in combat 00:29:19.029 --> 00:29:23.369 for a period of months, but ultimately, there's 00:29:23.369 --> 00:29:30.250 a landmine explosion, which you get injured in 00:29:30.250 --> 00:29:34.869 and have to come back to the US. Tell us when 00:29:34.869 --> 00:29:39.799 that was and kind of, again, emotionally. How 00:29:39.799 --> 00:29:41.839 big of a letdown was it or it was like, okay, 00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:47.180 I've done what I came to do. Uh, no. So on that, 00:29:47.720 --> 00:29:50.460 on that mission, I actually should have already 00:29:50.460 --> 00:29:54.660 left. I didn't go to Ukraine with the goal of 00:29:54.660 --> 00:29:56.640 staying there until the war ended. I knew that 00:29:56.640 --> 00:30:00.099 was going to take too long, but, um, I set a 00:30:00.099 --> 00:30:02.819 date to come back because I had been accepted 00:30:02.819 --> 00:30:09.299 into a university and We have already finished 00:30:09.299 --> 00:30:12.619 our rotation and then we're cycling back on to 00:30:12.619 --> 00:30:15.359 leave and training rotation and i figured i would 00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:18.440 leave. During that period because there is no 00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:22.660 reason for me to stay for training. But they 00:30:22.660 --> 00:30:28.579 called us back last minute are. The the brigade 00:30:28.579 --> 00:30:31.660 command of the air we're operating on and said 00:30:31.660 --> 00:30:35.420 hey can we have you come back here and do this. 00:30:35.799 --> 00:30:38.980 This last operation with us this final assault 00:30:38.980 --> 00:30:42.900 And so we said okay, and we turned our trucks 00:30:42.900 --> 00:30:48.000 back around From going back to kiev staged there 00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:52.259 and then did one final assault And on that final 00:30:52.259 --> 00:30:55.220 assault was whenever I was wounded. So I was 00:30:55.220 --> 00:30:59.140 already almost You know halfway back to kiev 00:31:00.670 --> 00:31:04.150 before we even did this this mission so it wasn't 00:31:04.150 --> 00:31:08.130 like I felt like I missed out or anything like 00:31:08.130 --> 00:31:13.250 that but um and what what uh what month what 00:31:13.250 --> 00:31:15.589 month would that when that would that have been 00:31:15.589 --> 00:31:20.450 I think that was very late July maybe like July 00:31:20.450 --> 00:31:28.369 30th or 31st or something um and so of 23 of 00:31:28.369 --> 00:31:32.819 23 yeah You'd you now find yourself back, you 00:31:32.819 --> 00:31:35.460 know, I got to get back to the I got to get medical 00:31:35.460 --> 00:31:38.839 care I got to get back and and the plans for 00:31:38.839 --> 00:31:44.039 school kind of shift Throughout this process 00:31:44.039 --> 00:31:47.759 you you get pretty limited or almost no help 00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:53.960 from the US government They weren't keen on having 00:31:53.960 --> 00:31:58.359 US citizens on the ground fighting in Ukraine 00:31:58.359 --> 00:32:03.650 but Did you ever kind of get official word from 00:32:03.650 --> 00:32:06.269 the government, like, kid, we didn't want you 00:32:06.269 --> 00:32:08.670 to do this. We're not going to help you, or how 00:32:08.670 --> 00:32:12.250 did that interaction? Because they did a prisoner 00:32:12.250 --> 00:32:14.809 swap for you. They probably weren't thrilled 00:32:14.809 --> 00:32:20.509 that this is where you were. Yeah, so I want 00:32:20.509 --> 00:32:24.210 to be clear about that, too. I didn't ask the 00:32:24.210 --> 00:32:28.660 US government for help. Again, that was my parents 00:32:28.660 --> 00:32:31.180 who did that, even though I specifically asked 00:32:31.180 --> 00:32:33.500 them not to do that. Yeah, except they love you. 00:32:33.759 --> 00:32:37.599 So you know how that went. Yeah. So they, they 00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:40.880 did that on their own, but you know, I for one 00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:44.859 didn't think that, you know, the U S government 00:32:44.859 --> 00:32:48.680 really was involved in that at all. Uh, didn't 00:32:48.680 --> 00:32:51.859 think that that was their responsibility. And 00:32:51.859 --> 00:32:55.000 the other thing was I also knew how the US government 00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:58.079 worked and I didn't have like a year to be evacuated. 00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:03.960 So I found I found an NGO on my own with. And 00:33:03.960 --> 00:33:06.019 I want to thank everybody for listening to Veterans 00:33:06.019 --> 00:33:09.839 Radio today. I am Jim Fossone. It's been a pleasure 00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:12.420 to be your host. I'm a veterans disability lawyer 00:33:12.420 --> 00:33:15.240 at Legal Help for Veterans. And you can reach 00:33:15.240 --> 00:33:21.230 us at 800 -693 -4800. or legalhelpforveterans 00:33:21.230 --> 00:33:24.410 .com on the web. You can follow Veterans Radio 00:33:24.410 --> 00:33:27.730 on Facebook and listen to its podcasts and internet 00:33:27.730 --> 00:33:32.309 radio shows by visiting us at veteransradio .org. 00:33:32.589 --> 00:33:36.269 That's veteransradio .org. 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