WEBVTT 00:00:16.649 --> 00:00:19.870 American around the world. You're listening to 00:00:19.870 --> 00:00:23.629 America's number one program for veterans, Veterans 00:00:23.629 --> 00:00:29.629 Radio. And now, live from the studios of WDEO 00:00:29.629 --> 00:00:32.289 in Ann Arbor, Michigan, here's your host for 00:00:32.289 --> 00:00:38.130 today's program, former CB Chulai, 1966 Republic 00:00:38.130 --> 00:00:44.770 of Vietnam, Gary Lilley. And good morning. I 00:00:44.770 --> 00:00:47.030 just sit here with a big grin when you're announcing. 00:00:47.689 --> 00:00:50.030 Matt, you sound like you're at the palace announcing 00:00:50.030 --> 00:00:54.189 the basketball players coming on the court. I 00:00:54.189 --> 00:00:57.009 really enjoy it. It makes me grin every week. 00:00:58.369 --> 00:01:00.609 Good morning out there, America, and good morning 00:01:00.609 --> 00:01:03.890 to all our troops spread out across the world, 00:01:04.010 --> 00:01:06.109 that thin green and blue line that's protecting 00:01:06.109 --> 00:01:08.530 not just our country, but other countries as 00:01:08.530 --> 00:01:10.849 well. And to my veteran brothers and sisters, 00:01:11.069 --> 00:01:14.430 Welcome home. And to all those folks in other 00:01:14.430 --> 00:01:17.170 continents, we're getting your emails, except 00:01:17.170 --> 00:01:20.510 you people down in Antarctica. You're asleep 00:01:20.510 --> 00:01:22.609 at the wheel. We want to get an email from somebody 00:01:22.609 --> 00:01:24.909 down in Antarctica. We've gotten them from every 00:01:24.909 --> 00:01:29.030 other continent. So this morning on Veterans 00:01:29.030 --> 00:01:32.170 Radio, we've got, gee, we sent out a flyer and 00:01:32.170 --> 00:01:35.730 we're getting all sorts of responses to it about 00:01:35.730 --> 00:01:38.590 Operation Ranch Hand and the spraying of Agent 00:01:38.590 --> 00:01:42.480 Orange. Jack McManus, who is a true member of 00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:46.459 one of those C123s, is with us today and he will 00:01:46.459 --> 00:01:50.599 be telling us about how that program worked, 00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:54.879 what was in the product that was in those herbicides 00:01:54.879 --> 00:01:58.560 and those tanks. Right now though, we've got 00:01:58.560 --> 00:02:05.390 Bob Gould on the phone. Bob, good morning. I 00:02:05.390 --> 00:02:07.629 told you never let me push a button. You're going 00:02:07.629 --> 00:02:09.810 to see a mushroom cloud here. We're right here 00:02:09.810 --> 00:02:12.789 from our Williamsburg studios. Welcome out there 00:02:12.789 --> 00:02:14.689 all my brothers and sisters. Well you know what 00:02:14.689 --> 00:02:16.710 we're going to be talking about just for a few 00:02:16.710 --> 00:02:22.090 minutes. Frank Woodruff Buckles and he is the 00:02:22.090 --> 00:02:27.669 last surviving World War I verified veteran. 00:02:27.789 --> 00:02:31.770 He's also the last surviving verified veteran 00:02:31.770 --> 00:02:36.020 in the world. And he is 110 years old on the 00:02:36.020 --> 00:02:40.259 1st of February. He currently lives in Gap View 00:02:40.259 --> 00:02:43.479 Farm in Charlestown, West Virginia. My goodness, 00:02:43.539 --> 00:02:47.000 where would Gap View Farm be, Gary? Never heard 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:52.300 of it. I don't know if it was safe there. He 00:02:52.300 --> 00:02:55.139 is a field that jumped in here. He's the honorary 00:02:55.139 --> 00:02:59.020 chairman of the World War I Memorial Foundation 00:02:59.020 --> 00:03:03.099 during World War II. Two, Buckles was taken prisoner 00:03:03.099 --> 00:03:08.139 by the Japanese as a civilian. Really? I didn't 00:03:08.139 --> 00:03:11.580 realize that. Quite the man. Once again, it's 00:03:11.580 --> 00:03:16.280 February 110. He has been on guard. He's been 00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:21.080 a soldier all those years. He's a soldier. Tell 00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:24.020 me a little bit about what did he do in World 00:03:24.020 --> 00:03:26.180 War I? What was his job? Well, he was working 00:03:26.180 --> 00:03:30.250 with the first... Fort Riley casual detachment 00:03:30.250 --> 00:03:33.550 and what he did he drove ambulance and motorcycles 00:03:33.550 --> 00:03:38.210 all that must have been cool You imagine driving 00:03:38.210 --> 00:03:42.770 a motorcycle in World War one Wow, what a guy, 00:03:42.969 --> 00:03:46.530 huh? He served in England and France during the 00:03:46.530 --> 00:03:51.590 war he also after the war Here's a very interesting 00:03:51.590 --> 00:03:56.680 man served on the RMS Carpathia Remember that 00:03:56.680 --> 00:04:00.639 they're the ones who rescued that Titanic survivors. 00:04:00.699 --> 00:04:04.039 Okay. Yeah, that's a British ship RMS I know 00:04:04.039 --> 00:04:06.919 but to think that how this man is in and out 00:04:06.919 --> 00:04:11.379 of history the Titanic What's that the Titanic 00:04:11.379 --> 00:04:14.639 was he was in on that rescue? No, but he was 00:04:14.639 --> 00:04:17.540 he was aboard the car path He served aboard the 00:04:17.540 --> 00:04:20.779 car path here and had a chance to talk with some 00:04:20.779 --> 00:04:23.420 of the crew who did participate The part the 00:04:23.420 --> 00:04:26.230 point I'm making out is this man This man has 00:04:26.230 --> 00:04:29.230 led a quite a life. I'd like to quote something 00:04:29.230 --> 00:04:30.810 here, and I know we're going to take a few moments 00:04:30.810 --> 00:04:34.009 here, but the man has been on guard for a long 00:04:34.009 --> 00:04:37.810 time, military. He says, I was just 16 and didn't 00:04:37.810 --> 00:04:41.009 look a day older. I confess to you that I lied 00:04:41.009 --> 00:04:45.009 more than one recruiter. I gave them my solemn 00:04:45.009 --> 00:04:48.550 word that I was 18, but I had left my birth certificate 00:04:48.550 --> 00:04:51.209 back home in the family Bible. They'd take one 00:04:51.209 --> 00:04:54.110 look at me and laugh and tell me to go home before 00:04:54.110 --> 00:04:58.089 my mother. noticed I was gone. So somehow I got 00:04:58.089 --> 00:05:00.870 the idea that telling even a bigger whopper was 00:05:00.870 --> 00:05:03.610 the way to go. So I told the next recruiter that 00:05:03.610 --> 00:05:08.069 I was 21. And darned, if he didn't, sign me up 00:05:08.069 --> 00:05:13.930 on the spot. Isn't that great? A bigger lie works. 00:05:14.029 --> 00:05:16.649 Oh yeah. And I want to tell all our listeners 00:05:16.649 --> 00:05:20.449 you can go to the U .S. Library of Congress and 00:05:20.449 --> 00:05:22.750 go to Buckles, Frank Buckles, for the Veterans 00:05:22.750 --> 00:05:27.670 History Project. and his audio. It's a 148 minute 00:05:27.670 --> 00:05:31.490 video interview of his life. Oh, I didn't do 00:05:31.490 --> 00:05:34.050 that. Oh, isn't that wonderful that we have that, 00:05:34.050 --> 00:05:37.870 but we're so fortunate to have this man still 00:05:37.870 --> 00:05:41.529 on guard. Now, he says, and he wishes that when 00:05:41.529 --> 00:05:43.949 he died he would be buried at Arlington. Well, 00:05:43.949 --> 00:05:47.850 he was not eligible. I don't understand that. 00:05:48.310 --> 00:05:50.149 Well, the veterans, you have to have a Medal 00:05:50.149 --> 00:05:53.029 of Honor, Purple Heart, or have been killed in 00:05:53.029 --> 00:05:56.509 action. or special, I don't know what the another 00:05:56.509 --> 00:06:01.790 word, dispensation from the Department of Interior 00:06:01.790 --> 00:06:04.470 to be allowed to do that. So is he going to be? 00:06:04.810 --> 00:06:07.870 Pardon? Will he be allowed to be? Well, he was 00:06:07.870 --> 00:06:13.350 ineligible. Okay. So his family started petitioning 00:06:13.350 --> 00:06:16.790 legislator and lost parole, took up the cause. 00:06:17.230 --> 00:06:20.009 To make the story short, he went to the direct 00:06:20.009 --> 00:06:24.310 up to the Bush administration. And they, they 00:06:24.310 --> 00:06:28.189 made a special dispensation for Frank Woodruff 00:06:28.189 --> 00:06:31.209 -Buckles and he will be buried in Arlington. 00:06:31.629 --> 00:06:34.750 Well, Bob, thanks for calling in on that and 00:06:34.750 --> 00:06:37.790 see if you can get an interview with him. I certainly 00:06:37.790 --> 00:06:43.110 will and this little musical salute is for you, 00:06:43.370 --> 00:06:46.629 Frank Woodruff -Buckles. Thank you for standing 00:06:46.629 --> 00:06:57.879 guard. Thank you very much. I've got one other 00:06:57.879 --> 00:07:00.259 thing I want to cover. This was sent to us from 00:07:00.259 --> 00:07:03.660 our friend in Tasmania. It's a story about an 00:07:03.660 --> 00:07:07.360 Australian SAS Digger. Now the SAS stands for 00:07:07.360 --> 00:07:10.579 Special Air Service Regiment. That's a Special 00:07:10.579 --> 00:07:14.920 Forces unit of the Australian Army. is a term 00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:18.379 that originated in World War I. It's the Australian 00:07:18.379 --> 00:07:21.500 and New Zealand soldier, and it's the equivalent 00:07:21.500 --> 00:07:24.759 of the GI for the American soldier. So it's an 00:07:24.759 --> 00:07:28.139 Australian digger named Corporal Benjamin Robert 00:07:28.139 --> 00:07:32.480 Smith, 32 years old, six foot six inches tall. 00:07:33.100 --> 00:07:36.579 That's quite a target. He was recently awarded 00:07:36.579 --> 00:07:40.209 the Victoria Cross for conspicuous gallantry 00:07:40.209 --> 00:07:42.889 while attacking Taliban machine gun positions 00:07:42.889 --> 00:07:46.589 in Afghanistan. The Victoria Cross is the equivalent 00:07:46.589 --> 00:07:48.970 of our Medal of Honor. That's the highest award 00:07:48.970 --> 00:07:53.930 they can receive. Now earlier on a tour in Afghanistan 00:07:53.930 --> 00:07:58.069 in 2006, he was awarded a medal for gallantry 00:07:58.069 --> 00:08:00.709 and that's the second highest award. It would 00:08:00.709 --> 00:08:04.569 be the equivalent of our Distinguished Service 00:08:04.569 --> 00:08:09.149 Cross. That was for bravery. And that made him 00:08:09.149 --> 00:08:11.769 the most highly decorated member of the Australian 00:08:11.769 --> 00:08:14.490 Defense Force, which is their armed services. 00:08:15.769 --> 00:08:17.730 He was only the second Australian to be awarded 00:08:17.730 --> 00:08:20.970 the Victoria Cross after it was established in 00:08:20.970 --> 00:08:25.850 1991 for Australia. And of course he said, as 00:08:25.850 --> 00:08:28.370 I have heard so many times on this program and 00:08:28.370 --> 00:08:32.210 I cannot wrap my mind around it, I was only doing 00:08:32.210 --> 00:08:37.120 my job. If you were to read what he did, and 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:40.460 you can Google it, Corporal Benjamin Robert Smith 00:08:40.460 --> 00:08:43.259 in both of those battles where he was attacking 00:08:43.259 --> 00:08:45.740 machine gun nests in that rugged terrain where 00:08:45.740 --> 00:08:49.080 they had everybody pinned down, it's just astounding. 00:08:50.580 --> 00:08:56.639 So, Corporal Robert, Benjamin Robert Smith, congratulations. 00:08:56.960 --> 00:08:59.580 You've done your fourth tour in Afghanistan. 00:09:00.129 --> 00:09:02.629 And the world is proud of you, and I want to 00:09:02.629 --> 00:09:05.230 thank Ella Woods, our friend down there in Tasmania, 00:09:05.330 --> 00:09:08.629 for sending that on to us. And this morning we 00:09:08.629 --> 00:09:11.730 want to do what we've always done, and that is 00:09:11.730 --> 00:09:14.269 welcome home all of the troops that are coming 00:09:14.269 --> 00:09:18.809 back from Afghanistan and Iraq. And we just want 00:09:18.809 --> 00:09:21.889 to say to you, on behalf of a grateful nation 00:09:21.889 --> 00:09:25.230 and on behalf of Veterans Radio, welcome home. 00:09:28.330 --> 00:09:30.549 You have honorably served the United States and 00:09:30.549 --> 00:09:32.889 the Marine Corps in times of peace and war. Now 00:09:32.889 --> 00:09:35.389 we would like to serve you. The Marine Scholars 00:09:35.389 --> 00:09:37.909 Program covers the total cost of attending Ave 00:09:37.909 --> 00:09:40.629 Maria University by combining resources from 00:09:40.629 --> 00:09:43.429 the Ave Maria University Marine Scholars Funding, 00:09:44.330 --> 00:09:46.590 federal financial aid entitlements, and the GI 00:09:46.590 --> 00:09:49.289 Bill. The benefits are granted for the duration 00:09:49.289 --> 00:09:52.009 of the recipient study at Ave Maria University 00:09:52.009 --> 00:09:54.610 contingent upon good conduct and good academic 00:09:54.610 --> 00:09:57.590 standing. The Marine Scholars Program is open 00:09:57.590 --> 00:10:00.529 to all reserve and active component Marines and 00:10:00.529 --> 00:10:03.309 other combat veterans of Operation Enduring Freedom 00:10:03.309 --> 00:10:05.769 and Operation Iraqi Freedom who have honorably 00:10:05.769 --> 00:10:09.529 served our country. Please visit us online at 00:10:09.529 --> 00:10:14.350 www .avemaria .edu or call the Assistant Director 00:10:14.350 --> 00:10:21.129 of Admissions at 239 -280 -2552. You helped us. 00:10:21.629 --> 00:10:27.809 Now let us help you. Semper Fi. And we're back 00:10:27.809 --> 00:10:32.629 on Veterans Radio. With us is Jack McManus. Jack 00:10:32.629 --> 00:10:36.309 served on Operation Ranch Hand, and there's a 00:10:36.309 --> 00:10:38.129 lot of people who have heard of that. That was 00:10:38.129 --> 00:10:40.169 the spraying of Agent Orange, but there were 00:10:40.169 --> 00:10:43.129 some other agents also. He was a crew member 00:10:43.129 --> 00:10:46.750 on a C -123. If you're looking, you can see a 00:10:46.750 --> 00:10:50.049 model of that hand carved by a friend of his 00:10:50.049 --> 00:10:53.769 out of mahogany and painted with the colors, 00:10:53.929 --> 00:10:57.100 the camouflage colors. Jack, welcome to Veterans 00:10:57.100 --> 00:11:00.440 Radio. Good morning. Good morning. Time for the 00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:04.440 morning. Time for the morning, too. Tell us about 00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:08.200 Operation Ranch Hand, what was it, and then you 00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:10.840 can follow up with what did you do in there. 00:11:12.700 --> 00:11:16.460 Well, let me start off by saying that Operation 00:11:16.460 --> 00:11:24.809 Ranch Hand started in the United States. with 00:11:24.809 --> 00:11:29.049 the Army and the Army medical branches and the 00:11:29.049 --> 00:11:33.370 Army chemical warfare folks. And they developed 00:11:33.370 --> 00:11:40.669 a whole series of different experimental products 00:11:40.669 --> 00:11:44.110 to use with different applications for applying 00:11:44.110 --> 00:11:52.399 to defoliate jungle areas to destroy crops. and 00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:55.899 to essentially take away the protective canopy 00:11:55.899 --> 00:12:01.279 that the enemy had in Southeast Asia. These experiments 00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:11.179 went on during the 1950s into the 1960s and developed 00:12:11.179 --> 00:12:17.460 a series of different chemical compounds that 00:12:17.460 --> 00:12:24.139 were used in chemical warfare in Southeast Asia 00:12:24.139 --> 00:12:28.779 and as we find out now in a number of other places 00:12:28.779 --> 00:12:32.220 around the world such as Panama, Upstate New 00:12:32.220 --> 00:12:39.299 York, Korea, a number of different places. So 00:12:39.299 --> 00:12:44.500 we were essentially the component of the Air 00:12:44.500 --> 00:12:49.840 Force that was charged with defoliating and spraying 00:12:49.840 --> 00:12:54.259 the defoliant in Southeast Asia. From what I 00:12:54.259 --> 00:12:56.899 understand, this was a program that was conceived 00:12:56.899 --> 00:12:59.700 during World War II when the Marines were fighting 00:12:59.700 --> 00:13:02.779 in the jungles in the Pacific. So I mean, the 00:13:02.779 --> 00:13:05.899 history of it goes back quite a long way. I think 00:13:05.899 --> 00:13:10.600 the original experimentation of it was back in 00:13:10.600 --> 00:13:17.600 World War II. and quite probably using different 00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:22.340 types of compounds or chemicals. I believe that 00:13:22.340 --> 00:13:26.720 Fort Detrick, Maryland was the experimental station 00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:36.120 and I believe they continued various experiments 00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:40.500 there from World War II all the way through Vietnam. 00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:49.019 It was President John F. Kennedy that first authorized 00:13:49.019 --> 00:13:52.080 the spraying of it at the request of the South 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:59.299 Vietnamese government in 1961. That's true. Originally 00:13:59.299 --> 00:14:16.480 it was handled by a small detachment. flight 00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:20.779 aircraft based out of Thompson and outside of 00:14:20.779 --> 00:14:25.340 Saigon. And of course it grew much greater operation 00:14:25.340 --> 00:14:27.360 during the years that we were there and they 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:32.000 were hitting all over the South Vietnam. What 00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:36.080 was your job Jack? Well I was known as a crew 00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:42.700 chief. We were responsible for maintaining the 00:14:42.700 --> 00:14:48.899 aircraft, maintaining the spray systems, loading 00:14:48.899 --> 00:14:57.539 the aircraft with both fuel and herbicides, and 00:14:57.539 --> 00:15:05.779 in several instances operating the spray controls 00:15:05.779 --> 00:15:09.019 on the aircraft when they went on spray missions. 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:15.879 That was a more specialized operation and those 00:15:15.879 --> 00:15:20.480 folks were known as flight mechanics or flight 00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:25.100 engineers. The makeup of the crews that would 00:15:25.100 --> 00:15:29.659 go out on missions were essentially a pilot, 00:15:29.899 --> 00:15:35.879 a co -pilot and a flight engineer. On the lead 00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:41.700 aircraft they would have a flight navigator and 00:15:41.700 --> 00:15:44.279 sometimes on some of the larger flights you'd 00:15:44.279 --> 00:15:47.419 have two navigators on a flight. If you had a 00:15:47.419 --> 00:15:50.179 flight going out with 12 birds you might have 00:15:50.179 --> 00:15:54.340 two navigators. I've never seen a picture of 00:15:54.340 --> 00:15:59.960 12 of the planes. They would fly and spray a 00:15:59.960 --> 00:16:04.389 column 80 yards wide by about 10 miles long, 00:16:04.610 --> 00:16:07.809 is that correct? I was doing a little research 00:16:07.809 --> 00:16:13.049 on it. Yeah, to be honest with you, the spray 00:16:13.049 --> 00:16:17.330 could be controlled by the settings of the nozzles 00:16:17.330 --> 00:16:20.769 and for the density of the spray that would come 00:16:20.769 --> 00:16:27.360 out of the bones. The aircraft had two booms, 00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:30.539 one on each wingtip, and then it had a rear boom 00:16:30.539 --> 00:16:36.879 out off the back cargo hatch that sprayed through 00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:39.059 what would have been the center of the aircraft. 00:16:41.019 --> 00:16:45.580 Now this defoliant was used on farms back here 00:16:45.580 --> 00:16:49.009 in the States. What's the difference between 00:16:49.009 --> 00:16:51.710 using it on the farms here and using it over 00:16:51.710 --> 00:16:54.509 there? Was it the difference in application? 00:16:55.529 --> 00:16:59.090 Well, to be honest with you, it was not in the 00:16:59.090 --> 00:17:02.230 format of Agent Orange. It was not used on farms 00:17:02.230 --> 00:17:05.630 in the United States, to my knowledge. It was 00:17:05.630 --> 00:17:12.490 a consolidation of different herbicides that 00:17:12.490 --> 00:17:18.970 were blended to create the various agents. Now, 00:17:19.230 --> 00:17:22.769 some of the compounds that were used to blend 00:17:22.769 --> 00:17:28.849 were agents or compounds that were used by farms 00:17:28.849 --> 00:17:33.250 and by landscape people, vegetation control people 00:17:33.250 --> 00:17:36.210 in the United States, and they were commonly 00:17:36.210 --> 00:17:40.630 available over the shelf. They still are, aren't 00:17:40.630 --> 00:17:45.359 they, 2 ,4 -D? 2 ,4 -D is to my knowledge still 00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:49.380 available over the shelf. The difference between 00:17:49.380 --> 00:17:53.980 what was used in agriculture and what was used 00:17:53.980 --> 00:17:57.660 in landscape and vegetation control was really 00:17:57.660 --> 00:18:03.319 how it was manufactured. As an example, Agent 00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:07.700 Orange was manufactured in massive quantities. 00:18:08.359 --> 00:18:15.220 by a number of chemical petroleum companies and 00:18:15.220 --> 00:18:22.099 it was the blending of several common herbicides 00:18:22.099 --> 00:18:26.940 with some other ingredients. It appears from 00:18:26.940 --> 00:18:30.500 what I've read that the problem with Agent Orange 00:18:30.500 --> 00:18:34.819 for its toxicity and its introduction of dioxin 00:18:34.819 --> 00:18:42.380 came when these various herbicides were blended 00:18:42.380 --> 00:18:47.680 together and how they were blended together. 00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:53.259 Now Agent Orange has 2 ,4 -D and 2 ,4 -5 -T and 00:18:53.259 --> 00:18:57.299 I won't even try to attempt to pronounce what 00:18:57.299 --> 00:19:02.240 the letters stand for. There is about 26 letters 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:07.180 per word. But we leave that to the Navy to pronounce 00:19:07.180 --> 00:19:12.720 that. So what was your job then? Did you fly 00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:15.640 these missions is what I meant to ask. I've been 00:19:15.640 --> 00:19:21.960 on a number of missions. Most of my duties was 00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:28.539 on the ground. Occasionally we flew airborne 00:19:28.539 --> 00:19:35.779 missions. prerequisite of my particular AFSC 00:19:35.779 --> 00:19:41.019 and the training for that those folks that flew 00:19:41.019 --> 00:19:43.019 were certainly different than the training that 00:19:43.019 --> 00:19:46.559 I had. Would you be exposed to the herbicides 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:49.259 then with the loading and unloading of the planes 00:19:49.259 --> 00:19:52.599 or loading of the planes? Yeah, we had the greatest 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:56.019 exposure to agent orange and the other herbicides 00:19:56.019 --> 00:20:03.390 blue and white. of anybody and essentially that 00:20:03.390 --> 00:20:07.769 was because we in essence took showers almost 00:20:07.769 --> 00:20:11.450 and would be a good way to explain it. When we 00:20:11.450 --> 00:20:14.509 worked on the spray nozzles and the booms, they 00:20:14.509 --> 00:20:18.490 were actuated. We were spraying the foliant through 00:20:18.490 --> 00:20:22.930 that to get the right flows and to remove any 00:20:22.930 --> 00:20:27.839 stoppages. We had massive tanks inside, 1 ,000 00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:33.140 gallon tanks inside the aircraft that held the 00:20:33.140 --> 00:20:39.960 Agent Orange. Interestingly, there were a number 00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:44.079 of times we actually got into, and I particularly 00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:50.440 recall several instances of going inside of the 00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:55.869 tank. when it was full and immersing myself into 00:20:55.869 --> 00:20:59.109 the Agent Orange and slipping forward so that 00:20:59.109 --> 00:21:04.910 we could kick the manual lever for the dump valve. 00:21:05.569 --> 00:21:11.789 It sounds strange, but the dump valves worked 00:21:11.789 --> 00:21:16.549 phenomenally well when the tanks were empty. 00:21:17.370 --> 00:21:19.690 Once they put the weight of the Agent Orange 00:21:19.690 --> 00:21:22.529 or they commingled some of the other things, 00:21:22.849 --> 00:21:26.109 they would create problems for those valves opening 00:21:26.109 --> 00:21:31.589 and the manual actuator arm was inside the tank. 00:21:33.250 --> 00:21:36.150 I'd like to go back to that a second because 00:21:36.150 --> 00:21:39.509 I'm sure there's a lot of people saying, I don't 00:21:39.509 --> 00:21:42.200 believe what I just heard. I'm not calling you 00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:46.140 a liar, but it's so unbelievable. Talking about 00:21:46.140 --> 00:21:48.660 the weight though, just guesstimating at 8 pounds 00:21:48.660 --> 00:21:52.299 per gallon, 1 ,000 gallons would be 8 ,000 pounds 00:21:52.299 --> 00:21:55.220 or 4 tons. That's a whole bunch of Agent Orange. 00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:59.779 Yeah, and there were certainly restrictions on 00:21:59.779 --> 00:22:05.359 aircraft taking off and landing at certain places 00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:08.859 because of that weight factor, certain airstrips. 00:22:10.410 --> 00:22:13.029 they had a dump and that's why the dump bow was 00:22:13.029 --> 00:22:18.089 used before they landed because the airstrips 00:22:18.089 --> 00:22:20.809 weren't improved enough or long enough to allow 00:22:20.809 --> 00:22:23.829 the aircraft to safely land so they would dump 00:22:23.829 --> 00:22:26.450 the load before they landed wherever they dump 00:22:26.450 --> 00:22:31.750 it. They dump it over usually somewhere close 00:22:31.750 --> 00:22:35.130 by the base that we were getting ready to have 00:22:35.130 --> 00:22:39.849 the crew landed. So let's go back to what you 00:22:39.849 --> 00:22:42.990 just said. I want people to hear this. You would 00:22:42.990 --> 00:22:46.329 actually go inside the tanks when they had Agent 00:22:46.329 --> 00:22:48.950 Orange in them? Like you were waiting in a pool? 00:22:49.970 --> 00:22:56.130 That's correct. Now, this was not an everyday 00:22:56.130 --> 00:23:01.069 thing. I can remember maybe three or four instances 00:23:01.069 --> 00:23:05.400 where I had to get into a tank. You know, as 00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:07.700 the crew chief, you wouldn't want to send any 00:23:07.700 --> 00:23:12.759 of the, what we call, jeeps to do guys in doing 00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:16.019 that, to start with. So the crew chief would 00:23:16.019 --> 00:23:17.700 always be the one that would hop in there and 00:23:17.700 --> 00:23:20.900 do that. What type of, we all know about Agent 00:23:20.900 --> 00:23:24.940 Orange Cancer and other things that come from, 00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:30.099 how are you doing, may I ask? You know, I've 00:23:30.099 --> 00:23:34.519 had... When I'm blessed I'm here and I've had 00:23:34.519 --> 00:23:40.500 a couple bouts with Agent Orange related diseases 00:23:40.500 --> 00:23:46.599 but I've really been blessed I'm here and relatively 00:23:46.599 --> 00:23:49.740 healthy and the Lord has blessed me to have a 00:23:49.740 --> 00:24:01.609 good life. I think One of the really important 00:24:01.609 --> 00:24:08.670 things that came out of the Ranch and Agent Orange 00:24:08.670 --> 00:24:12.289 health study that was done by the Air Force in 00:24:12.289 --> 00:24:20.390 the 80s and 90s was the ability to track dioxin 00:24:20.390 --> 00:24:28.339 in your system. and to determine, you know, how 00:24:28.339 --> 00:24:30.519 long it stayed in your system and what the half 00:24:30.519 --> 00:24:34.140 -lives were and things like that. And I think 00:24:34.140 --> 00:24:37.019 that was the first study that gave them a comprehensive 00:24:37.019 --> 00:24:40.980 knowledge of how long these toxins would stay 00:24:40.980 --> 00:24:43.819 in your body. I want to come back to that in 00:24:43.819 --> 00:24:46.920 the second half. We've got about three and a 00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:50.019 half minutes left in this segment. Going back 00:24:50.019 --> 00:24:53.779 to when it was any of that... Some of our Navy 00:24:53.779 --> 00:24:57.240 people have been picked up Agent Orange type 00:24:57.240 --> 00:25:01.940 cancer. How would a Navy ship or whatever crew 00:25:01.940 --> 00:25:09.440 member get Agent Orange exposure? Well, are you 00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:12.980 talking about the Blue Water Navy folks out off 00:25:12.980 --> 00:25:15.119 the coast? Yeah, off the coast, Blue Water Navy. 00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:22.450 There were occasions. Probably none of which 00:25:22.450 --> 00:25:28.130 are documented that, you know, Ranch Hand would 00:25:28.130 --> 00:25:31.369 have a mission aborted or would have something 00:25:31.369 --> 00:25:36.089 happen where they would have Agent Orange on 00:25:36.089 --> 00:25:39.869 board and have to get rid of it before they came 00:25:39.869 --> 00:25:44.809 back and then landed. And that was, I believe, 00:25:45.130 --> 00:25:47.509 primarily when they were in detachments along 00:25:47.509 --> 00:25:50.809 the coast, Fan Rang, Nha Trang, those places 00:25:50.809 --> 00:25:55.769 where they would fly in and out on Cam Ranh Bay 00:25:55.769 --> 00:25:59.569 on sporadic times. They weren't based there, 00:25:59.589 --> 00:26:02.390 but they would use that for launching and landing 00:26:02.390 --> 00:26:07.930 and refueling and refilling the herbicides. But 00:26:07.930 --> 00:26:12.259 on the way back, they would fly down the in the 00:26:12.259 --> 00:26:17.420 coast of Vietnam. There was great inter -service 00:26:17.420 --> 00:26:22.099 rivalry going on between the different military 00:26:22.099 --> 00:26:29.160 units. It is well known by the folks in Ranch 00:26:29.160 --> 00:26:35.019 Hand that there were more than one ship that 00:26:35.019 --> 00:26:40.119 was soaked out in... Agent Orange by having the 00:26:40.119 --> 00:26:42.279 ranch hand fly over and open the dump valves 00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:46.940 and just happened to dump on Navy ships at the 00:26:46.940 --> 00:26:51.640 time. I've heard a number of stories from Navy 00:26:51.640 --> 00:26:55.759 crewmen who explained that and said that happened. 00:26:57.079 --> 00:26:59.920 Nobody wants to admit it, but they were out there 00:26:59.920 --> 00:27:02.740 having to use big fire hoses or whatnot to wash 00:27:02.740 --> 00:27:05.180 down the decks, and they knew exactly what Agent 00:27:05.180 --> 00:27:09.039 Orange was, its viscosity and its color. This 00:27:09.039 --> 00:27:13.140 was kind of a boys will be boys. We were told 00:27:13.140 --> 00:27:15.900 it wouldn't hurt us, and so let's play a joke 00:27:15.900 --> 00:27:18.339 on the Navy. Is that what we're talking about? 00:27:19.690 --> 00:27:21.430 Yeah, I think it was that, you know, service 00:27:21.430 --> 00:27:24.009 rivalry. I think the Navy did things to the Air 00:27:24.009 --> 00:27:26.250 Force, and the Air Force did things to the Navy, 00:27:26.690 --> 00:27:30.390 and I don't think he could get, you know, too 00:27:30.390 --> 00:27:32.569 many of the crews together in a saloon without 00:27:32.569 --> 00:27:36.730 having some type of little bailiwick going on. 00:27:37.089 --> 00:27:41.079 Donny, Donny Brooke? I, I was in... training 00:27:41.079 --> 00:27:44.740 to go to Vietnam as a CB and Agent Orange was 00:27:44.740 --> 00:27:46.859 explained to us and what it would do and how 00:27:46.859 --> 00:27:48.799 it would clear the jungles and make it safer 00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:52.000 for our troops. And I asked, well if it'll do 00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:55.500 that to trees, what will it do to us? And the 00:27:55.500 --> 00:27:58.579 instructor, the chief, whatever he was, said, 00:27:59.819 --> 00:28:01.700 well it wouldn't do anything to you. Our government 00:28:01.700 --> 00:28:04.339 wouldn't do anything that would hurt our own 00:28:04.339 --> 00:28:07.119 soldiers. And everybody looked at me and laughed 00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:09.920 and I thought... I guess that's true. The government 00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:12.339 wouldn't do anything that would hurt us, and 00:28:12.339 --> 00:28:17.240 so very few people that were in Vietnam at that 00:28:17.240 --> 00:28:20.140 time knew that there was any danger to Agent 00:28:20.140 --> 00:28:22.779 Orange. We're talking to Jack McManus, who was 00:28:22.779 --> 00:28:26.059 a crew member on Operation Ranch Hand. That was 00:28:26.059 --> 00:28:29.039 the spring of defoliance in Vietnam. We'll be 00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:31.559 back right after this message. The Medal of Honor 00:28:31.559 --> 00:28:33.680 is the highest award for valor in combat, given 00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:35.740 a member of the Armed Forces of the United States. 00:28:35.769 --> 00:28:38.750 There had been over 3 ,400 recipients of the 00:28:38.750 --> 00:28:41.930 nation's highest award. This is one of them. 00:28:42.170 --> 00:28:44.690 Lance Corporal Roy Wheat threw himself on an 00:28:44.690 --> 00:28:47.089 anti -personnel mine to save his fellow Marines. 00:28:47.690 --> 00:28:52.410 Details after this. Wheat and two other Marines 00:28:52.410 --> 00:28:54.410 were assigned the mission of providing security 00:28:54.410 --> 00:28:56.970 for a Navy construction battalion crane and crew 00:28:56.970 --> 00:28:59.690 operating along Liberty Road in the Kwan Nam 00:28:59.690 --> 00:29:02.930 province. After the Marines had set up security 00:29:02.930 --> 00:29:05.049 positions in a tree line adjacent to the work 00:29:05.049 --> 00:29:07.420 site, Wheat reconnoitered the area to the rear 00:29:07.420 --> 00:29:10.019 of their location for the possible presence of 00:29:10.019 --> 00:29:13.059 guerrillas. He then returned to within 10 feet 00:29:13.059 --> 00:29:15.880 of their friendly position and here, unintentionally, 00:29:16.339 --> 00:29:18.960 triggered a well -concealed bounding -type anti 00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:22.160 -personnel mine. Immediately, a hissing sound 00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:24.579 was heard which was identified by the three Marines 00:29:24.579 --> 00:29:28.480 as that of a burning time fuse. Shouting a warning 00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:32.019 to his comrades, Wheat and a valiant act of heroism, 00:29:32.279 --> 00:29:35.000 hurled himself upon the mine, absorbing the tremendous 00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:38.180 impact of the explosion with his body. The Medal 00:29:38.180 --> 00:29:40.440 of Honor series is a production of Veterans Radio. 00:30:00.259 --> 00:30:03.420 wading into a deep pool to kick a valve loose. 00:30:05.819 --> 00:30:09.000 Somebody had to know something about what was 00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:11.480 going on with Agent Orange. Who knew? Tell us 00:30:11.480 --> 00:30:17.160 about that, Jack. Well, subsequent to the end 00:30:17.160 --> 00:30:21.240 of Vietnam War, there was a great deal of secrecy 00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:26.460 put around the whole. Agent Orange Herbicide 00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:30.460 Warfare in Vietnam. So it became very difficult 00:30:30.460 --> 00:30:34.779 to find information. But it was very apparent 00:30:34.779 --> 00:30:39.380 that there were veterans that served in Vietnam 00:30:39.380 --> 00:30:45.220 were coming down with a disproportionately... 00:30:45.400 --> 00:30:51.000 larger amount of certain diseases that essentially 00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:54.339 the commonality that the veterans had was exposure 00:30:54.339 --> 00:30:59.920 to Agent Orange. A number of studies and a number 00:30:59.920 --> 00:31:06.880 of lawsuits were conducted. And in these discoveries, 00:31:07.299 --> 00:31:12.019 through these studies and lawsuits, it was determined 00:31:12.019 --> 00:31:17.519 that while early tests in the laboratory of Agent 00:31:17.519 --> 00:31:25.880 Orange didn't show a significant amount of dioxin 00:31:25.880 --> 00:31:31.740 being present in that formulation. Later tests 00:31:31.740 --> 00:31:37.039 of when the large quantities of Agent Orange 00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:40.779 were being manufactured throughout the United 00:31:40.779 --> 00:31:48.589 States. that dioxin did become very present in 00:31:48.589 --> 00:31:55.230 the tests that were done. Gary, you have to remember 00:31:55.230 --> 00:31:59.049 that back when this was done, this was really 00:31:59.049 --> 00:32:02.029 viewed as a life -saving measure. I remember 00:32:02.029 --> 00:32:06.009 that, yeah, very well. And so the Department 00:32:06.009 --> 00:32:15.869 of Defense was really in using high amounts of 00:32:15.869 --> 00:32:20.430 dioxin of herbicides that had not previously 00:32:20.430 --> 00:32:24.230 been manufactured across the country. And through 00:32:24.230 --> 00:32:27.589 their various contracting processes and the subcontracting 00:32:27.589 --> 00:32:31.210 processes, they gave this out to a number of 00:32:31.210 --> 00:32:33.990 chemical companies and they said, we need you 00:32:33.990 --> 00:32:38.619 to accelerate the production. of these chemical 00:32:38.619 --> 00:32:40.940 compounds so that we can use them in Southeast 00:32:40.940 --> 00:32:46.240 Asia. And I believe when they accelerated the 00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:49.380 production is when they started the introduction 00:32:49.380 --> 00:32:58.400 of dioxin into the herbicides. And the Agent 00:32:58.400 --> 00:33:03.140 Orange, as it was early compounded, was compounded 00:33:03.140 --> 00:33:08.119 and blended readily available other compounds 00:33:08.119 --> 00:33:12.220 were blended and they were blended very slowly 00:33:12.220 --> 00:33:18.220 over time at a low heat. As the demand really 00:33:18.220 --> 00:33:25.319 built up for herbicides to come out to the War 00:33:25.319 --> 00:33:31.200 Theater, the chemical companies or some of the 00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:34.769 chemical companies changed the blending method 00:33:34.769 --> 00:33:40.670 and they started mixing the chemicals very quickly 00:33:40.670 --> 00:33:46.029 at a high heat. My understanding, I'm not a scientist, 00:33:46.130 --> 00:33:50.609 but from what I hear from the experts is that 00:33:50.609 --> 00:33:55.329 the blending of these herbicides at the high 00:33:55.329 --> 00:34:00.970 heat was what created the dioxin within the compound. 00:34:02.009 --> 00:34:06.009 And that would kind of seem logical going along 00:34:06.009 --> 00:34:11.949 with dioxin. You find dioxin often present in 00:34:11.949 --> 00:34:17.510 incinerators and in various types of high heat 00:34:17.510 --> 00:34:21.570 situations and developing of plasma type materials. 00:34:22.550 --> 00:34:31.030 So I think that the initial thoughts of the scientists 00:34:31.030 --> 00:34:35.230 were that Agent Orange was not going to be harmful 00:34:35.230 --> 00:34:40.690 to humans? I got sprayed with it at a place called 00:34:40.690 --> 00:34:44.929 Hill 35. My squad was out there building a camp 00:34:44.929 --> 00:34:48.909 for the headquarters of the 5th Marine Battalion. 00:34:50.449 --> 00:34:53.170 They sprayed around that camp one time and I 00:34:53.170 --> 00:34:56.170 took films of it. It was a helicopter and it 00:34:56.170 --> 00:35:01.730 was probably 100 feet up. and was out 200 yards, 00:35:02.690 --> 00:35:06.329 maybe, and spraying the chemical. Didn't think 00:35:06.329 --> 00:35:10.050 anything of it. Later on, a few days later, I 00:35:10.050 --> 00:35:13.469 came down. I was so sick. I had to be lifted 00:35:13.469 --> 00:35:16.889 in and out of a bunk. And to try to get to sick 00:35:16.889 --> 00:35:20.849 bay, I would take about six steps, shuffling 00:35:20.849 --> 00:35:23.710 about the length of your foot. And about every 00:35:23.710 --> 00:35:26.210 six steps, I'd have to stop and pant for breath. 00:35:26.489 --> 00:35:30.610 I had such chest constrictions. And the doctor 00:35:30.610 --> 00:35:33.650 said, well, we've got jungle diseases over here 00:35:33.650 --> 00:35:37.869 we know nothing about. And people would ask me, 00:35:37.889 --> 00:35:40.269 were you ever exposed to Agent Orange? Yes. Did 00:35:40.269 --> 00:35:45.349 you ever have any effect? No. And then it was 00:35:45.349 --> 00:35:47.769 picking up a book called Waiting for an Army 00:35:47.769 --> 00:35:50.750 to Die. I started reading that. I never could 00:35:50.750 --> 00:35:52.610 finish it. I got about a third of the way through. 00:35:53.010 --> 00:35:55.170 My blood pressure and anger was getting too high. 00:35:55.349 --> 00:35:59.269 I found out that the symptoms I had were exposure 00:35:59.269 --> 00:36:02.429 to Agent Orange symptoms, very high doses. And 00:36:02.429 --> 00:36:04.309 some of the guys in the squad, one of them who 00:36:04.309 --> 00:36:08.070 died about four years ago with bad heart and 00:36:08.070 --> 00:36:11.030 systemic heart disease is one of the things that 00:36:11.030 --> 00:36:15.570 is coming out of Agent Orange studies. I saw 00:36:15.570 --> 00:36:17.570 the symptoms on the other guys and it was all 00:36:17.570 --> 00:36:19.869 Agent Orange symptoms. We all thought it was 00:36:19.869 --> 00:36:24.570 jungle disease. So we did not know. And when 00:36:24.570 --> 00:36:28.440 they first started Coming out in the papers about 00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:31.460 Agent Orange and people saying we've got to stop 00:36:31.460 --> 00:36:34.619 using Agent Orange, the protests were going on 00:36:34.619 --> 00:36:37.380 for so long. I just thought it was another thing 00:36:37.380 --> 00:36:40.760 of the protesters and I just fluffed it off. 00:36:42.179 --> 00:36:48.500 When was it that you began to realize what you 00:36:48.500 --> 00:36:51.780 had been exposed to and knowing that you'd climbed 00:36:51.780 --> 00:36:54.340 in these tanks full of Agent Orange and that 00:36:54.340 --> 00:36:56.789 you had... probably gotten sprayed with it when 00:36:56.789 --> 00:36:59.550 you're loading the planes and whatever when when 00:36:59.550 --> 00:37:03.269 was it that it first began to Sink in or realize 00:37:03.269 --> 00:37:06.550 or you became educated enough to know that you 00:37:06.550 --> 00:37:11.349 you had some potential problems Well, I guess 00:37:11.349 --> 00:37:16.969 my first concern came in the 70s probably 77 00:37:16.969 --> 00:37:23.449 78 timeframe when I Had read some newspaper articles 00:37:23.449 --> 00:37:27.750 about the possible effects or the effects that 00:37:27.750 --> 00:37:32.789 Agent Orange was having and the claims that some 00:37:32.789 --> 00:37:36.210 veterans were making that Agent Orange had on 00:37:36.210 --> 00:37:39.510 their health. And it was in a newspaper, I think 00:37:39.510 --> 00:37:45.969 it was the Washington Post. And I wrote to the 00:37:45.969 --> 00:37:50.510 Veterans Administration. and explained to them 00:37:50.510 --> 00:37:53.250 that I'd been exposed to Agent Orange and I'd 00:37:53.250 --> 00:37:58.110 worked with it in Vietnam. And, you know, I wasn't 00:37:58.110 --> 00:38:00.409 aware that it was anything wrong with me at the 00:38:00.409 --> 00:38:02.690 time, but did I need to be tested or was there 00:38:02.690 --> 00:38:06.030 anything? And they sent back a letter to me telling 00:38:06.030 --> 00:38:11.409 me, no, there was no definition of any problem 00:38:11.409 --> 00:38:16.309 or diseases related to Agent Orange or what in 00:38:16.309 --> 00:38:21.000 Vietnam. A couple years later, I started hearing 00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:24.679 about the lawsuits and the actions that the Vietnam 00:38:24.679 --> 00:38:27.699 Veterans of America were taking, trying to get 00:38:27.699 --> 00:38:32.659 the government to provide some information and 00:38:32.659 --> 00:38:39.699 do some testing on veterans. And that became 00:38:39.699 --> 00:38:45.320 sort of my crusade at that point, I guess, to 00:38:45.320 --> 00:38:50.460 say that. Over the years, I've been actively 00:38:50.460 --> 00:38:56.079 involved and supported legislation and activities 00:38:56.079 --> 00:39:02.019 to get full transparency on what Agent Orange 00:39:02.019 --> 00:39:04.940 is, what it's done to veterans, and what can 00:39:04.940 --> 00:39:11.260 we do to help the families in the offspring of... 00:39:11.480 --> 00:39:13.920 veterans that have been exposed to Agent Orange. 00:39:14.139 --> 00:39:16.119 And that's one of the things I want to get back 00:39:16.119 --> 00:39:19.599 into in the next segment. We've got two minutes 00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:23.099 left in this one. Everybody has heard of Agent 00:39:23.099 --> 00:39:26.420 Orange cancer, and that's commonly discussed, 00:39:26.440 --> 00:39:31.320 but there are other things that as a father are 00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:36.599 even worse with a mother. But Agent Orange can 00:39:36.599 --> 00:39:40.650 stay in the system for generations. And I want 00:39:40.650 --> 00:39:43.809 you to talk about that when we get back. There 00:39:43.809 --> 00:39:46.369 were other agents and in about a minute and a 00:39:46.369 --> 00:39:48.230 half, what were these other agents used for? 00:39:48.369 --> 00:39:52.329 You said crops? Crop destruction. You know, one 00:39:52.329 --> 00:39:59.349 of the tactics that we used in Southeast Asia 00:39:59.349 --> 00:40:06.510 was try to deny the enemy, the Viet Cong. the 00:40:06.510 --> 00:40:11.449 ability to feed themselves by killing crops that 00:40:11.449 --> 00:40:14.530 they would use to subsist on down in the tunnels 00:40:14.530 --> 00:40:17.190 or wherever they were. I don't know if we knew 00:40:17.190 --> 00:40:19.190 how many tunnels they had at that time. I don't 00:40:19.190 --> 00:40:26.710 think so. But in a number of cases they were 00:40:26.710 --> 00:40:32.829 growing these subsistence crops. in Cambodia 00:40:32.829 --> 00:40:38.050 just across the border from Vietnam. And we actually 00:40:38.050 --> 00:40:45.369 went into Cambodia and sprayed the crops. I do 00:40:45.369 --> 00:40:47.789 remember one mission I was on that was a crop 00:40:47.789 --> 00:40:52.829 destruction mission. And when we flew over the 00:40:52.829 --> 00:40:56.590 target, it was a bunch of old, appeared to be 00:40:56.590 --> 00:40:59.750 bombed out buildings. And the Viet Cong had gone 00:40:59.750 --> 00:41:04.619 and grown. their crops inside the walls of the 00:41:04.619 --> 00:41:06.900 blown -up buildings, so you really from the air 00:41:06.900 --> 00:41:11.840 couldn't tell that this was a farm patch, because 00:41:11.840 --> 00:41:18.519 it was inside these ruined walls of buildings, 00:41:18.900 --> 00:41:20.860 and these were hut -type buildings, you know, 00:41:20.960 --> 00:41:25.599 farm -type buildings. We're talking to Jack McManus 00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:27.920 about AIDS and Orange, and when we come back, 00:41:28.039 --> 00:41:30.369 I've forgotten to ask you. You guys flew awfully 00:41:30.369 --> 00:41:35.030 low. Low and slow. That could be dangerous. We'll 00:41:35.030 --> 00:41:37.489 be right back. Wonderful world as long as we 00:41:37.489 --> 00:41:40.190 don't have Agent Orange and all the other agents 00:41:40.190 --> 00:41:43.190 in there. I want to ask you real quick because 00:41:43.190 --> 00:41:46.409 I haven't asked you, Jack. You guys flew low 00:41:46.409 --> 00:41:50.150 and slow, 100 to 150 feet off the ground. That's 00:41:50.150 --> 00:41:53.849 a pretty easy target. Was there a surprise that 00:41:53.849 --> 00:41:56.769 got you guys through it or were you shot at? 00:41:57.159 --> 00:42:01.739 No, these aircraft were really, really shot at. 00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:12.519 They were in excess of five or six thousand hits 00:42:12.519 --> 00:42:16.400 on the aircraft during the period of time that 00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:19.380 we were, Ranch Hand was there. That doesn't include 00:42:19.380 --> 00:42:23.519 the Army helicopters or other aircraft or other 00:42:23.519 --> 00:42:25.719 people that were spraying. This is just Ranch 00:42:25.719 --> 00:42:30.090 Hand. Interestingly enough, one of the aircraft 00:42:30.090 --> 00:42:34.929 that was in Vietnam was nicknamed Patches. It 00:42:34.929 --> 00:42:40.190 was so shot up and had so many patches that they 00:42:40.190 --> 00:42:43.630 took it out of defoliation duty and they put 00:42:43.630 --> 00:42:47.829 it on what they thought was going to be a less 00:42:47.829 --> 00:42:52.989 dangerous duty, spraying malathion for mosquito 00:42:52.989 --> 00:42:59.219 control. And that plane is currently in the Air 00:42:59.219 --> 00:43:02.179 Force regime at Wright -Patterson Air Base, and 00:43:02.179 --> 00:43:05.280 it's nicknamed Patches. And the reason it's called 00:43:05.280 --> 00:43:08.500 Patches is every time that, you know, we fixed 00:43:08.500 --> 00:43:11.840 the aircraft and patched it, we'd cut out the 00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:15.179 hole, we'd pop rivet some patches on there, and 00:43:15.179 --> 00:43:20.699 then originally they, when it was... spray in 00:43:20.699 --> 00:43:22.579 Agent R's, they would just put a little spray 00:43:22.579 --> 00:43:25.440 paint on it, but when it was a Malathian, the 00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:27.639 Malathian would strip the paint off the aircraft. 00:43:28.739 --> 00:43:34.119 So they used nail polish, women's nail polish, 00:43:35.179 --> 00:43:38.840 and they would color their patches with women's 00:43:38.840 --> 00:43:41.280 nail polish. So I got the name of Patches, and 00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:44.159 I believe it had somewhere in the area of 1 ,500. 00:43:45.720 --> 00:43:50.500 bullet or shrapnel holes in that aircraft. It 00:43:50.500 --> 00:43:55.780 took, I believe it took about, in my understanding, 00:43:55.900 --> 00:43:59.480 25 years to decontaminate that aircraft where 00:43:59.480 --> 00:44:02.820 it could go onto the static display down at the 00:44:02.820 --> 00:44:04.960 Air Force Museum in Wright -Patterson. It was 00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:07.980 so contaminated with chemicals. That was going 00:44:07.980 --> 00:44:09.760 to be a question. How could they put it on there 00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:17.699 with all those chemicals? And Agent Orange, everybody 00:44:17.699 --> 00:44:20.860 knows about cancer, I asked you about before. 00:44:21.500 --> 00:44:24.900 What are some of the other effects and what is 00:44:24.900 --> 00:44:31.719 the dangers to generations? Well, I think what 00:44:31.719 --> 00:44:34.860 the dangers are, you know, the long -term dangers, 00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:39.059 I think we've identified that the damage from 00:44:39.059 --> 00:44:44.860 dioxin in the reproductive cells is tremendous 00:44:44.860 --> 00:44:49.960 and it appears that it may skip generations. 00:44:50.760 --> 00:44:54.079 We just don't know all of that. We've heard different 00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:56.719 studies say different things but there are a 00:44:56.719 --> 00:45:00.239 number of things from spina bifida to various 00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:05.340 cancers and other birth defects that are attributable 00:45:05.340 --> 00:45:10.230 to... the dioxin exposure through Agent Orange 00:45:10.230 --> 00:45:15.429 through the grandparents. So apparently, you 00:45:15.429 --> 00:45:17.650 know, there's a lot of work yet to be done on 00:45:17.650 --> 00:45:21.789 this. The government, for the first time ever, 00:45:22.050 --> 00:45:30.289 has allowed disability to the offspring of veterans 00:45:30.289 --> 00:45:40.139 for medical care. with some of the children's 00:45:40.139 --> 00:45:42.860 diseases that have been identified and proved. 00:45:43.039 --> 00:45:44.840 That's the first time ever that anybody other 00:45:44.840 --> 00:45:47.860 than a veteran has gotten care from the government, 00:45:48.559 --> 00:45:53.679 particularly the offspring. But I think that's 00:45:53.679 --> 00:45:57.980 for history to write where the extent of the 00:45:57.980 --> 00:46:01.139 damage from dioxin is going to be. I always research 00:46:01.139 --> 00:46:04.139 for a program and of course I got on... the Internet 00:46:04.139 --> 00:46:07.079 last night, Google, Branch Hand, and Agent Orange. 00:46:08.280 --> 00:46:16.780 The real laboratory is Vietnam. I'll show photographs 00:46:16.780 --> 00:46:19.460 here that people are watching on the webcam, 00:46:21.860 --> 00:46:24.760 but some of those photographs were so horrible 00:46:24.760 --> 00:46:31.280 and so terrible. I wasn't ready for them. in 00:46:31.280 --> 00:46:37.179 Vietnam and of the, there's a lot of miscarriages 00:46:37.179 --> 00:46:41.880 as a result of it. And if anybody wants to do 00:46:41.880 --> 00:46:44.519 it on their own, just go to the internet and 00:46:44.519 --> 00:46:47.960 Google Ranch Hand and Agent Orange. You'll come 00:46:47.960 --> 00:46:51.820 up with some photographs that you may wish you 00:46:51.820 --> 00:46:55.420 hadn't looked at later on. It was a terrible 00:46:55.420 --> 00:47:03.099 thing. The environmental damage to Vietnam is 00:47:03.099 --> 00:47:09.159 going to go on for many, many generations. And 00:47:09.159 --> 00:47:12.960 there are still a number of what are known as 00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:17.960 hotspots throughout Vietnam where Agent Orange 00:47:17.960 --> 00:47:22.079 was stored or Agent Orange was maintained in 00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:26.219 large bulk quantities. really got into the soil. 00:47:26.820 --> 00:47:30.219 You know, that's around Benoit Air Base, around 00:47:30.219 --> 00:47:34.719 Fan Rang, around Cameron Bay, around Da Nang, 00:47:35.019 --> 00:47:38.179 I think Dun Ha. There are a number of places 00:47:38.179 --> 00:47:40.780 where the Indian Orange was stored. You know, 00:47:40.860 --> 00:47:43.559 it dripped out of the barrels or was dumped there. 00:47:44.800 --> 00:47:47.679 And quite candidly, we were told that this was 00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:49.340 harmless stuff, it wasn't going to hurt you. 00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:54.860 And it was disposed in what today would be considered 00:47:54.860 --> 00:48:01.019 totally unlawful ways of disposing it. So yeah, 00:48:01.099 --> 00:48:04.559 that stuff's there and it's going to be there 00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:07.880 for many, many generations. And in the final 00:48:07.880 --> 00:48:11.559 minutes, I want to tell the listeners out there 00:48:11.559 --> 00:48:17.000 that you didn't have to be an Agent Orange Sprayer. 00:48:17.079 --> 00:48:19.300 You didn't have to be one of the troops out there. 00:48:19.019 --> 00:48:21.900 in the ground. I understand that it's known at 00:48:21.900 --> 00:48:26.440 Long Vinh that Agent Orange was dumped into the 00:48:26.440 --> 00:48:30.059 water supply, whether it was on purpose or by 00:48:30.059 --> 00:48:33.420 some of the Vietnamese that worked there on the 00:48:33.420 --> 00:48:37.480 base. Why they would do it, I don't know, but 00:48:37.480 --> 00:48:41.099 I don't think it was anything sabotaged or anything 00:48:41.099 --> 00:48:45.440 of that nature. There's bases here in the United 00:48:45.440 --> 00:48:49.309 States. The one down in the panhandle, is that 00:48:49.309 --> 00:48:51.630 the Air Force Base where they practice with it? 00:48:51.769 --> 00:48:55.969 If you're on the DMZ in Korea, upstate New York, 00:48:56.130 --> 00:48:59.750 Panama, as you mentioned. The interesting thing 00:48:59.750 --> 00:49:06.570 is that when the Vietnam War, I guess we say, 00:49:06.829 --> 00:49:09.309 ceased combat operations and they moved stuff 00:49:09.309 --> 00:49:11.889 out, one of the things that Vietnam insisted 00:49:11.889 --> 00:49:15.610 was that we get the Agent Orange out of Vietnam. 00:49:16.809 --> 00:49:21.150 And we shipped the Agent Orange, what we could, 00:49:21.250 --> 00:49:25.530 I guess, readily get hold of, many, many millions 00:49:25.530 --> 00:49:29.650 of gallons, and moved it to one of the atolls 00:49:29.650 --> 00:49:33.929 in the Pacific. But they would not allow it back 00:49:33.929 --> 00:49:36.150 in the United States, which is interesting. And 00:49:36.150 --> 00:49:39.610 all of a sudden, it was persona non grata. You 00:49:39.610 --> 00:49:41.610 couldn't bring this back in the United States. 00:49:42.480 --> 00:49:47.039 The federal government has spent many, many hundreds 00:49:47.039 --> 00:49:51.420 of millions of dollars developing what they called 00:49:51.420 --> 00:49:57.039 incinerator ships to burn up these many tens 00:49:57.039 --> 00:50:01.199 of thousands of gallons of Agent Orange and other 00:50:01.199 --> 00:50:05.440 chemicals that they were storing offshore. It's 00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:09.739 questionable whether all that stuff got burned 00:50:09.739 --> 00:50:13.269 up or how much of it just sunk. You know, whatever, 00:50:14.269 --> 00:50:19.190 but it's just tremendous. All of a sudden, it 00:50:19.190 --> 00:50:22.610 became very well known that this was some bad 00:50:22.610 --> 00:50:25.130 stuff and, you know, nobody wants to touch it. 00:50:26.010 --> 00:50:29.469 And in our final minute and a half, I do want 00:50:29.469 --> 00:50:32.570 to bring out that here in the United States, 00:50:32.590 --> 00:50:35.429 you'll see weed killers that have 2 ,4 -D in 00:50:35.429 --> 00:50:41.500 them. That's the dioxin. Master gardeners will 00:50:41.500 --> 00:50:43.159 say every spring, you hear them on the radio, 00:50:43.559 --> 00:50:45.659 now's the time to go after the crabgrass and 00:50:45.659 --> 00:50:48.360 make sure that crabgrass killer has 2 ,4 -D in 00:50:48.360 --> 00:50:51.920 it. Railroads spray it to keep along the tracks, 00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:54.119 to keep the weeds from getting up too close to 00:50:54.119 --> 00:50:56.400 the railroads. I've seen it sprayed along the 00:50:56.400 --> 00:50:59.619 power lines, those big towers. Transmission lines, 00:50:59.940 --> 00:51:04.639 yep. And right through ponds where there's just 00:51:04.639 --> 00:51:07.500 big brown patches. You'll find it everywhere, 00:51:08.119 --> 00:51:10.739 and I'd like the general public to become aware 00:51:10.739 --> 00:51:13.820 of 2 ,4 -D in weed killer and where it's still 00:51:13.820 --> 00:51:17.340 used in the United States today. And Vietnam 00:51:17.340 --> 00:51:19.400 Veterans of America tried to get it banned in 00:51:19.400 --> 00:51:23.920 Michigan. No luck whatsoever. So it's still used 00:51:23.920 --> 00:51:28.579 around. For your own sake, do not use anything. 00:51:28.840 --> 00:51:31.539 Look at the labels. If it says 2 ,4 -D on it, 00:51:31.679 --> 00:51:33.739 don't use it. There's other ways of getting rid 00:51:33.739 --> 00:51:37.239 of crabgrass. Jack, thank you so much for being 00:51:37.239 --> 00:51:41.179 on and giving us your experience and educating 00:51:41.179 --> 00:51:44.219 the public a bit about Agent Orange and Operation 00:51:44.219 --> 00:51:48.079 Ranch Hand. And the best of luck to you, of course, 00:51:49.800 --> 00:51:53.820 in the future. Tune in next week. Dale Thromberry 00:51:53.820 --> 00:51:56.699 will have a very interesting program. Until then, 00:51:56.980 --> 00:52:11.110 you are dismissed. Not all views and opinions 00:52:11.110 --> 00:52:13.409 expressed on Veterans Radio reflect the views 00:52:13.409 --> 00:52:16.730 of Veterans Radio or your local station. Veterans 00:52:16.730 --> 00:52:19.230 Radio is a production of Veterans Radio, LLC.