WEBVTT 00:00:05.419 --> 00:00:09.320 All across America and around the world, this 00:00:09.320 --> 00:00:15.800 is Veterans Radio. This is Veterans Radio. And 00:00:15.800 --> 00:00:19.980 now, your host for today's program, Jim Fossone. 00:00:34.189 --> 00:00:37.170 studio in Northville, Michigan. Legal Help for 00:00:37.170 --> 00:00:39.909 Veterans is a Veterans disability law firm, and 00:00:39.909 --> 00:00:45.109 you can reach us at 800 -693 -4800. Our guest 00:00:45.109 --> 00:00:49.409 today is Amy Shively Hawk. She's written a particularly 00:00:49.409 --> 00:00:52.710 poignant and personal story about her father, 00:00:53.210 --> 00:00:58.890 who was a captive in Vietnam. He was a pilot 00:00:58.890 --> 00:01:02.219 with the United States Air Force. and was shut 00:01:02.219 --> 00:01:06.620 down over Vietnam. Amy, welcome to Veterans Radio. 00:01:07.180 --> 00:01:09.680 Thank you for having me, Jim. Why don't you go 00:01:09.680 --> 00:01:12.640 ahead and start telling us about your father, 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:16.719 his early years before he got to the U .S. Air 00:01:16.719 --> 00:01:20.219 Force Academy. Sure. Well, he grew up in Spokane, 00:01:20.219 --> 00:01:24.000 Washington. Beautiful little city over here on 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:26.840 the west coast in the northwest and just had 00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:30.200 kind of a typical middle class childhood. two 00:01:30.200 --> 00:01:33.799 parents and a sister. He grew up just basically 00:01:33.799 --> 00:01:38.599 obsessed with baseball and riding his bike. And 00:01:38.599 --> 00:01:41.879 then in high school, he very much excelled there. 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:45.879 His parents were really keen on him getting a 00:01:45.879 --> 00:01:49.579 good education and a free education. So they 00:01:49.579 --> 00:01:54.140 basically required that he apply to the United 00:01:54.140 --> 00:01:56.739 States Air Force Academy. It wasn't really something 00:01:56.739 --> 00:02:01.349 that he wanted to do or had a passion for but 00:02:01.349 --> 00:02:05.769 of course he did apply and he got in and then 00:02:05.769 --> 00:02:08.789 that really set the course of his life from there. 00:02:09.689 --> 00:02:12.930 It's an interesting story because often times 00:02:12.930 --> 00:02:15.490 we hear of somebody who went to the academy who 00:02:15.490 --> 00:02:17.949 it was their lifelong dream to go do that or 00:02:17.949 --> 00:02:21.449 lifelong dream to go be a pilot but here really 00:02:21.449 --> 00:02:25.930 Jim Shively went there for the education and 00:02:26.640 --> 00:02:30.259 found that it was a difficult place for him originally 00:02:30.259 --> 00:02:33.000 to adjust to, but it just he did, didn't he? 00:02:33.280 --> 00:02:35.819 He sure did, and he really excelled there. He 00:02:35.819 --> 00:02:38.919 was an excellent student, got very good grades, 00:02:39.479 --> 00:02:43.319 and it was an expected course of action that 00:02:43.319 --> 00:02:46.240 their highest students would go on to pilot training. 00:02:46.860 --> 00:02:49.800 So he did and found that he just absolutely loved 00:02:49.800 --> 00:02:52.900 to fly. It turned out to be really the passion 00:02:52.900 --> 00:02:57.150 of his life. He went to pilot training. in Arizona 00:02:57.150 --> 00:03:02.569 and then on to Nevada to Nellis Air Force Base 00:03:02.569 --> 00:03:05.750 for his combat training and just loved it. He 00:03:05.750 --> 00:03:09.150 was a risk taker but he was smart, he loved to 00:03:09.150 --> 00:03:12.770 be in the air, he loved the exhilaration of it 00:03:12.770 --> 00:03:16.939 and he was an excellent fighter pilot. And Amy, 00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:19.900 one of the things that you've mentioned is that 00:03:19.900 --> 00:03:22.780 he was a pretty smart guy, demonstrated in high 00:03:22.780 --> 00:03:26.479 school how competent he was, but also at the 00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:29.340 academy. The Air Force sent him on to Georgetown 00:03:29.340 --> 00:03:33.580 University where he picked up his master's degree 00:03:33.580 --> 00:03:37.740 in international relations before he went off 00:03:37.740 --> 00:03:42.439 to fly in Vietnam. That shows you're a pretty 00:03:42.439 --> 00:03:45.020 smart cookie and he, your father, certainly was. 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:48.900 He really was, and that degree ended up serving 00:03:48.900 --> 00:03:53.289 him later in life too. So we'll get back to that 00:03:53.289 --> 00:03:54.550 a little bit. That's why I wanted to make sure 00:03:54.550 --> 00:03:56.830 we mentioned it up front, because it'll tie in 00:03:56.830 --> 00:03:58.789 a couple of places where you go, well, this guy 00:03:58.789 --> 00:04:01.689 is smarter than your average bearer. But tell 00:04:01.689 --> 00:04:07.009 us about what experiences a young pilot in that 00:04:07.009 --> 00:04:12.969 period of 68, 66, 67 would have been having in 00:04:12.969 --> 00:04:15.270 Vietnam, how many missions they had to fly, and 00:04:15.270 --> 00:04:18.620 those sorts of things. Sure. Well, he was sent 00:04:18.620 --> 00:04:23.579 over in 1966. He was 24 years old, and he was 00:04:23.579 --> 00:04:27.740 sent over to Southeast Asia to fly 100 missions 00:04:27.740 --> 00:04:30.920 over North Vietnam. That was his assignment. 00:04:31.860 --> 00:04:35.939 On his 69th mission, a surface -to -air missile 00:04:35.939 --> 00:04:41.000 was shot into the back of his plane, and it exploded 00:04:41.000 --> 00:04:44.779 the back off, and he had to eject out of the 00:04:44.779 --> 00:04:48.509 plane. he was injured upon ejection and landed 00:04:48.509 --> 00:04:53.550 in a rice paddy north of Hanoi. So he's, you 00:04:53.550 --> 00:04:57.670 know folks, he's 24 years old or so when this 00:04:57.670 --> 00:05:02.209 happens and as the title of Amy Shively Hawk's 00:05:02.209 --> 00:05:05.769 book indicates, six years in the Hanoi Hilton, 00:05:06.269 --> 00:05:10.649 he now spends the next six years as a Vietnam 00:05:10.649 --> 00:05:14.870 prisoner of war. Amy, tell us a little bit about 00:05:14.870 --> 00:05:21.589 your dad's early years adjusting to that difficult 00:05:21.589 --> 00:05:26.769 situation. Well, it was obviously extremely difficult. 00:05:26.829 --> 00:05:30.689 He had never expected or anticipated to be shot 00:05:30.689 --> 00:05:33.769 down. As I mentioned, he was the best of the 00:05:33.769 --> 00:05:37.550 best when it came to fighter pilots over there. 00:05:38.149 --> 00:05:43.060 It was a very dark time for him. You know, they 00:05:43.060 --> 00:05:46.259 captured him almost immediately, stripped and 00:05:46.259 --> 00:05:49.800 beat him, paraded him through the streets, and 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:53.139 then threw him into what the prisoners came to 00:05:53.139 --> 00:05:56.480 call the Hanoi Hilton, which was really a dungeon 00:05:56.480 --> 00:06:00.379 -like holding cell internment camp. He was thrown 00:06:00.379 --> 00:06:04.100 into solitary, tortured and beaten and starved. 00:06:04.139 --> 00:06:07.620 He had infections that were left untreated, so 00:06:07.620 --> 00:06:11.850 he really was near death in those first I would 00:06:11.850 --> 00:06:15.350 say about six months. It's a miracle that he 00:06:15.350 --> 00:06:21.389 made it through. And the physical deprivation 00:06:21.389 --> 00:06:25.790 was as challenging as the mental or emotional 00:06:25.790 --> 00:06:31.370 as I read your book. I really get a sense of 00:06:31.370 --> 00:06:33.470 both things occurring to him. Can you talk about 00:06:33.470 --> 00:06:37.449 that a little bit? Well, he talks about, you 00:06:37.449 --> 00:06:39.990 know, I took this story based on tapes that he 00:06:39.990 --> 00:06:44.480 left before he passed away because when I listened 00:06:44.480 --> 00:06:47.620 to the tape it brought me into what he really 00:06:47.620 --> 00:06:49.620 went through. He had never talked much about 00:06:49.620 --> 00:06:52.199 his experiences when I was growing up in his 00:06:52.199 --> 00:06:54.660 home and I think that's very typical of a lot 00:06:54.660 --> 00:06:58.800 of our veterans. So that's why I wanted to write 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:01.560 this book and to bring out the fact that it wasn't 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:05.740 even just the physical debasement but the mental 00:07:05.740 --> 00:07:09.100 torture that our veterans were put through as 00:07:09.100 --> 00:07:13.079 well. He was really just dehumanized, you know, 00:07:13.300 --> 00:07:17.199 forced to bow at any moment. He could have his 00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:21.439 life taken from him. The interrogations were 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:24.939 brutal. And then, of course, they would plant, 00:07:24.939 --> 00:07:28.439 you know, seeds in their minds like America doesn't 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:31.939 care about you. It was a lot of psychological 00:07:31.939 --> 00:07:34.779 warfare as well that he had to work through. 00:07:35.240 --> 00:07:39.220 So I know that in those first few months, he 00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:42.399 He actually wished that he hadn't ejected out, 00:07:42.439 --> 00:07:44.100 that it would have just been better if he would 00:07:44.100 --> 00:07:49.220 have gone down with his plane. Amy, back up a 00:07:49.220 --> 00:07:51.500 little bit and tell our readers about the source 00:07:51.500 --> 00:07:55.480 material here. You were fortunate enough to have 00:07:55.480 --> 00:07:59.160 your dad's own recollections recorded. Tell us 00:07:59.160 --> 00:08:01.800 how that happened and how you used that information. 00:08:02.439 --> 00:08:06.579 Well, it really was fortunate because he didn't 00:08:06.579 --> 00:08:08.519 talk about it. Of course, when I was growing 00:08:08.519 --> 00:08:11.889 up, And he's my stepdad. He married my mom when 00:08:11.889 --> 00:08:14.750 I was five years old. He just didn't really talk 00:08:14.750 --> 00:08:17.230 about it. We knew, of course, that he was a war 00:08:17.230 --> 00:08:20.209 hero. He was a fighter pilot. We knew he had 00:08:20.209 --> 00:08:24.750 been a prisoner. But the real details of his 00:08:24.750 --> 00:08:29.550 captivity he kept mainly to himself. And it wasn't 00:08:29.550 --> 00:08:32.429 until after he died that I discovered that he 00:08:32.429 --> 00:08:36.289 had made some recordings with a reporter up in 00:08:36.289 --> 00:08:39.789 Spokane. who had hounded him for years to get 00:08:39.789 --> 00:08:42.769 his life story on tape because this reporter 00:08:42.769 --> 00:08:45.990 was just fascinated and just felt that this was 00:08:45.990 --> 00:08:48.169 a story that needed to be told and needed to 00:08:48.169 --> 00:08:51.710 be preserved and so when my dad found out that 00:08:51.710 --> 00:08:57.269 he had cancer and he got that diagnosis, it occurred 00:08:57.269 --> 00:08:59.730 to him that this was going to be his last opportunity 00:08:59.730 --> 00:09:03.450 to get his story out so I think it was just easier 00:09:03.450 --> 00:09:07.350 for him to sit with the reporter than with any 00:09:07.350 --> 00:09:11.250 of his family and after he passed away the reporter 00:09:11.250 --> 00:09:15.230 gave me the tapes and I listened to them and 00:09:15.230 --> 00:09:19.049 just sobbed my way through them because of course 00:09:19.049 --> 00:09:22.529 I loved my dad and it was very difficult to listen 00:09:22.529 --> 00:09:27.070 but as I listened I just knew that his story 00:09:27.070 --> 00:09:30.769 needed to make its way out there not just to 00:09:30.769 --> 00:09:34.710 honor him but to honor all of our POWs and veterans 00:09:34.710 --> 00:09:37.620 that served. Well, I think that's an important 00:09:37.620 --> 00:09:41.899 point that your book does pretty well, which 00:09:41.899 --> 00:09:47.159 is it wasn't just Jim Shively who was a prisoner 00:09:47.159 --> 00:09:50.820 of war. You talk about many of the other men 00:09:50.820 --> 00:09:54.919 that he was captive with. Tell us a little bit 00:09:54.919 --> 00:09:58.519 about those guys and the information you got 00:09:58.519 --> 00:10:01.220 from some of them to help round out the story. 00:10:02.830 --> 00:10:06.350 Sure. Well, I was able to interview John McCain, 00:10:06.669 --> 00:10:10.870 who of course is our nation's probably most prominent 00:10:10.870 --> 00:10:15.809 Vietnam prisoner of war. He was a friend to my 00:10:15.809 --> 00:10:17.889 dad. They were in the camp together at the same 00:10:17.889 --> 00:10:22.429 time. And I was able to interview him, get some 00:10:22.429 --> 00:10:26.629 of his own personal stories, and then he wrote 00:10:26.629 --> 00:10:29.110 the foreword for the book, which was very gracious 00:10:29.110 --> 00:10:32.190 of him. But I found out a lot from the men. I 00:10:32.190 --> 00:10:35.409 found out probably the main thing that I didn't 00:10:35.409 --> 00:10:39.809 realize before was that it was really each other 00:10:39.809 --> 00:10:45.230 that kept them going because they had to be strong 00:10:45.230 --> 00:10:49.389 for the next guy. If they were in solitary, it 00:10:49.389 --> 00:10:51.190 was very difficult because they weren't having 00:10:51.190 --> 00:10:54.350 any communication and they had no one to rely 00:10:54.350 --> 00:10:57.370 on. But when they were putting the camp with 00:10:57.370 --> 00:11:00.419 other men in the cells, they felt that they needed 00:11:00.419 --> 00:11:03.100 to be strong for each other. And so that was 00:11:03.100 --> 00:11:05.019 one thing that really came out in the book was 00:11:05.019 --> 00:11:08.879 that if it hadn't been for each other, it would 00:11:08.879 --> 00:11:13.720 have been much more severe. And I think listeners, 00:11:14.620 --> 00:11:16.860 this is why you really want to read the book. 00:11:17.340 --> 00:11:21.899 One of the reasons is the story about how the 00:11:21.899 --> 00:11:25.250 men, sometimes cellmates, Sometimes they're in 00:11:25.250 --> 00:11:28.149 isolation and they're doing the tap code through 00:11:28.149 --> 00:11:33.029 the wall, but how they got each other through 00:11:33.029 --> 00:11:38.769 the mental hardship and the illnesses. I mean 00:11:38.769 --> 00:11:44.070 a lot of illnesses just from their lack of food 00:11:44.070 --> 00:11:47.470 and medical attention. You do a great job of 00:11:47.470 --> 00:11:50.350 describing how they took care of each other in 00:11:50.350 --> 00:11:52.409 that regards. Amy, do you want to tell one of 00:11:52.409 --> 00:11:56.159 those stories? Sure, there's one story that comes 00:11:56.159 --> 00:12:00.159 to mind. When my dad came out of solitary, they 00:12:00.159 --> 00:12:03.379 threw him in a cell with a couple of other guys 00:12:03.379 --> 00:12:08.159 and it was a lucky break for him because one 00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:10.419 of the guys he had known in flight training school, 00:12:10.460 --> 00:12:13.860 so they were able to reconnect. But what ended 00:12:13.860 --> 00:12:18.019 up happening is that he ended up getting hepatitis 00:12:18.019 --> 00:12:24.480 and he had raging infections because He was injured 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:28.220 upon ejection and so he had really deep cuts 00:12:28.220 --> 00:12:31.200 in his arms that were left untreated and got 00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:35.139 infected, so this infection was in his system. 00:12:35.899 --> 00:12:39.820 He had dysentery, he was vomiting all the time 00:12:39.820 --> 00:12:44.460 and when I interviewed his cellmate, his cellmate 00:12:44.460 --> 00:12:47.539 told me, he said, Amy, I don't know if your dad 00:12:47.539 --> 00:12:51.679 even knows this, but... We kept him alive. We 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:55.539 force -fed him the pumpkin soup stuff that they 00:12:55.539 --> 00:12:58.960 gave. So if it wouldn't have been for these men, 00:12:59.419 --> 00:13:02.659 he wouldn't have even survived. They made him 00:13:02.659 --> 00:13:06.139 eat and kind of nursed him back to health. And 00:13:06.139 --> 00:13:08.039 even some of the medical care they had to do 00:13:08.039 --> 00:13:10.100 for themselves. You've got a story about your 00:13:10.100 --> 00:13:14.759 dad having a raging ear infection, and sort of 00:13:14.759 --> 00:13:17.220 the only treatment, if you will, was to take 00:13:17.220 --> 00:13:22.580 the hot light bulb out of the ceiling to warm 00:13:22.580 --> 00:13:24.960 up a plot so you'd have something hot to put 00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:26.879 on that infection and hopefully try to drain 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:33.340 the pus. Oh my goodness! Did he talk about that 00:13:33.340 --> 00:13:36.279 in his recordings or did you hear that from his 00:13:36.279 --> 00:13:40.419 fellow prisoners? He actually did mention that 00:13:40.419 --> 00:13:42.960 one. This ear infection went on and on and on 00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:45.419 forever because of course they didn't give any 00:13:45.419 --> 00:13:49.029 medicine out and They were forced to, if you 00:13:49.029 --> 00:13:52.529 could call it, bathing. I think it was only once 00:13:52.529 --> 00:13:55.250 a week in this particular camp that they were 00:13:55.250 --> 00:13:58.750 able to get cleansed at all and then the water 00:13:58.750 --> 00:14:03.090 was dirty. So it just wasn't healing up. And 00:14:03.090 --> 00:14:07.110 he would take a wash cloth and get it hot on 00:14:07.110 --> 00:14:09.610 the light bulb and then just press it to his 00:14:09.610 --> 00:14:13.950 ear just to try to help with the pain. But then 00:14:13.950 --> 00:14:17.139 he would also have his cellmate push on the back 00:14:17.139 --> 00:14:20.460 of his ear pushed everything forward so that 00:14:20.460 --> 00:14:23.580 the pus and everything could come out. Again, 00:14:23.700 --> 00:14:26.559 I don't think many of us can fully appreciate 00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:30.059 the deprivation that these men went through and 00:14:30.059 --> 00:14:34.649 how they survived. Let's talk about some of the 00:14:34.649 --> 00:14:37.590 things that they did as a group to help them 00:14:37.590 --> 00:14:43.649 get through surviving. You write about Hanoi 00:14:43.649 --> 00:14:46.409 University. Can you talk about that a little 00:14:46.409 --> 00:14:50.049 bit? Sure. Well, that was something that came 00:14:50.049 --> 00:14:55.909 up in the later years. It was about 71, I believe, 00:14:55.950 --> 00:14:59.309 after Ho Chi Minh died, that the men were all 00:14:59.309 --> 00:15:04.080 brought together into the same camp. The result 00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:07.159 of that was that they were able to group together 00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:10.580 in larger numbers, which was really a blessing 00:15:10.580 --> 00:15:15.399 because they could take good care of each other, 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:20.379 but also they started a annoying university because 00:15:20.379 --> 00:15:24.059 you have to realize just how boredom was the 00:15:24.059 --> 00:15:29.240 other mental anguish. They weren't allowed to 00:15:29.240 --> 00:15:32.720 have books. cards or anything that might exercise 00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:36.299 their brains at all. So they started teaching 00:15:36.299 --> 00:15:40.559 classes. They would assign one prisoner to teach 00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:43.779 whatever he knew a lot about. And then they would 00:15:43.779 --> 00:15:46.620 just keep teaching each other. But they ended 00:15:46.620 --> 00:15:49.240 up making it very structured. So you would have 00:15:49.240 --> 00:15:53.279 courses and classes and tests. And it turned 00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:55.899 out to be a real blessing for them, just as a 00:15:55.899 --> 00:15:59.769 way to exercise their minds. And again, I think 00:15:59.769 --> 00:16:02.750 there's a little bit of that creative human spirit 00:16:02.750 --> 00:16:05.970 where when you're working together, you talk 00:16:05.970 --> 00:16:09.809 about how a couple of the prisoners were native 00:16:09.809 --> 00:16:13.110 Spanish speakers, so they were teaching Spanish 00:16:13.110 --> 00:16:16.450 to others, or your dad was teaching Russian. 00:16:16.990 --> 00:16:19.330 He had had advanced degrees, as we mentioned 00:16:19.330 --> 00:16:21.950 earlier, from Georgetown International Fairs 00:16:21.950 --> 00:16:25.409 and taught some of that. I have to imagine that 00:16:25.409 --> 00:16:29.059 that really elevated everybody's spirits thinking 00:16:29.059 --> 00:16:31.919 about we might get through this although we never 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:34.840 know when we will be released. Can you talk a 00:16:34.840 --> 00:16:38.700 little bit about how that not knowing when impacted 00:16:38.700 --> 00:16:43.679 the men? Well, it was really a roller coaster. 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:47.580 There were so many kind of up and downs because 00:16:47.580 --> 00:16:50.399 they would have air raids. The United States 00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:52.519 would have air raids. So the men would sometimes 00:16:52.519 --> 00:16:57.009 see the American B -52 bombers coming up over 00:16:57.009 --> 00:17:03.210 Hanoi, and it would give them a great sense of, 00:17:03.610 --> 00:17:06.190 okay, this war is about to end, America is coming 00:17:06.190 --> 00:17:10.529 back for us. Well, those would come, and then 00:17:10.529 --> 00:17:12.569 they would go, and there wouldn't be any change, 00:17:12.670 --> 00:17:15.990 or the treatment would get even worse. So it 00:17:15.990 --> 00:17:18.950 started becoming this extremely nerve -racking, 00:17:19.069 --> 00:17:21.470 because it got to the point where they just felt 00:17:21.470 --> 00:17:25.410 like they couldn't hope anymore. How many years 00:17:25.410 --> 00:17:29.390 of torture and starvation have to go by before 00:17:29.390 --> 00:17:33.309 you just start to completely lose hope? That 00:17:33.309 --> 00:17:35.630 was the other reason that they really had to 00:17:35.630 --> 00:17:40.210 depend on each other because even if a majority 00:17:40.210 --> 00:17:42.529 of them were downcast and in despair, thinking 00:17:42.529 --> 00:17:44.710 that they were never going to get out, never 00:17:44.710 --> 00:17:47.589 going to get their lives back or die in the camp, 00:17:47.849 --> 00:17:51.089 There would usually be one that was saying, ìNo, 00:17:51.089 --> 00:17:54.630 come on guys, weíre going to make it out .î It 00:17:54.630 --> 00:17:59.329 just takes that one person to lift up their spirits 00:17:59.329 --> 00:18:04.309 and give them that resilience. That is really 00:18:04.309 --> 00:18:07.730 what the book is about and itís really the message 00:18:07.730 --> 00:18:13.789 of my dadís life is keep holding onto hope and 00:18:13.789 --> 00:18:17.910 persevere and donít let go. What I realized when 00:18:17.910 --> 00:18:21.670 I was writing this book is that his situation 00:18:21.670 --> 00:18:25.609 was extremely brutal and most of us will not 00:18:25.609 --> 00:18:28.750 ever have to face anything like that but we will 00:18:28.750 --> 00:18:33.549 all have dark seasons. And I found myself even 00:18:33.549 --> 00:18:37.250 just clinging on to this endurance that I was 00:18:37.250 --> 00:18:41.210 kind of getting contagiously through my dad because 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:44.319 It really made me think, okay, if I'm going to 00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:47.700 be strong like Jim Shively, I'm going to persevere 00:18:47.700 --> 00:18:51.500 through this situation or this diagnosis or this 00:18:51.500 --> 00:18:54.539 relationship issue, whatever it is. So this book 00:18:54.539 --> 00:18:57.119 is really for anybody that needs an encouragement 00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:00.380 to just keep hanging on, and you will triumph 00:19:00.380 --> 00:19:04.299 on the other side. I absolutely agree with you, 00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:08.980 Amy Shively -Hawk, author of six years in the 00:19:08.980 --> 00:19:12.740 Hanoi Hilton. This book's about hope. As I read 00:19:12.740 --> 00:19:15.799 what you wrote about whether it be the church 00:19:15.799 --> 00:19:18.859 services that they held or the singing of the 00:19:18.859 --> 00:19:23.619 national anthem to raise their spirits or the 00:19:23.619 --> 00:19:27.440 American flag sort of made out of a tattered 00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:30.500 handkerchief by Mike Christensen, a naval pilot. 00:19:31.259 --> 00:19:34.059 These are stories you tell that give you hope. 00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:37.819 Let's go to the time after your dad gets released 00:19:37.819 --> 00:19:42.460 from the prison camps, returns home, decides 00:19:42.460 --> 00:19:45.700 that he doesn't want to stay in the Air Force 00:19:45.700 --> 00:19:50.619 as his career, and in turns to settling down 00:19:50.619 --> 00:19:54.759 with the family and pursuing a new career. Tell 00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:57.819 us a little bit about how he took those experiences. 00:19:58.349 --> 00:20:01.410 forward for the rest of his life because while 00:20:01.410 --> 00:20:04.670 he was in a prisoner of war for a long period 00:20:04.670 --> 00:20:07.569 of time, you know, he had decades now to live 00:20:07.569 --> 00:20:12.730 as a free man. Tell us how it impacted him. Well, 00:20:12.769 --> 00:20:15.470 it really did. For one thing, there's kind of 00:20:15.470 --> 00:20:18.130 a sweet love story in the book, kind of very 00:20:18.130 --> 00:20:22.289 subtly, but he and my mom had dated in high school 00:20:22.289 --> 00:20:25.950 and they dated while my dad was at the United 00:20:25.950 --> 00:20:29.329 States Air Force Academy. But when he was sent 00:20:29.329 --> 00:20:33.289 over to Vietnam and shot down, my mom didn't 00:20:33.289 --> 00:20:36.930 know if he would ever come back or how long he 00:20:36.930 --> 00:20:39.890 would be over there, if he would die. And as 00:20:39.890 --> 00:20:42.190 the years went by, she finally realized that 00:20:42.190 --> 00:20:46.049 she needed to move on with her life. So she met 00:20:46.049 --> 00:20:49.509 and married my biological father and had me and 00:20:49.509 --> 00:20:54.079 my little sister. But when Jim came home when 00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:56.680 the war ended and he was released from prison 00:20:56.680 --> 00:21:00.579 she ended up divorcing my biological father and 00:21:00.579 --> 00:21:04.319 moving back to Spokane to marry Jim and it's 00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:06.960 just kind of just another element within the 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:09.880 story of you know he thought that he had lost 00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:13.000 the love of his life but really they were always 00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:16.339 meant to be together and he they got married 00:21:16.339 --> 00:21:19.759 right away he adopted my sister and I and raised 00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:22.099 us in his home and then they went on to have 00:21:22.099 --> 00:21:25.440 two more daughters and it was kind of funny that 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:28.299 they had four girls because one of the things 00:21:28.299 --> 00:21:31.640 that he had said you know he only ever laid eyes 00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:35.740 on men for six years he they never even saw a 00:21:35.740 --> 00:21:39.579 female and he had said to his cellmate at one 00:21:39.579 --> 00:21:43.509 point when i get out of this camp I want to live 00:21:43.509 --> 00:21:46.910 in a house full of women. He got his wish in 00:21:46.910 --> 00:21:51.049 that regards. He went on to become a practicing 00:21:51.049 --> 00:21:54.470 lawyer and ultimately an assistant U .S. attorney, 00:21:54.829 --> 00:21:57.390 I believe, in Washington State. Tell us a little 00:21:57.390 --> 00:22:01.430 bit about that and his opportunity to use his 00:22:01.430 --> 00:22:07.170 education to give back to veterans. Yes. He decided 00:22:07.170 --> 00:22:10.430 that he was going to not stay in the military. 00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:14.119 I think having my mom back in his life and then 00:22:14.119 --> 00:22:19.279 having two ready -made daughters and they had 00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:22.339 more kids right away, he just kind of decided 00:22:22.339 --> 00:22:26.420 he wanted to stay put. Family became very special 00:22:26.420 --> 00:22:29.240 and important to him. He didn't want to travel. 00:22:30.220 --> 00:22:33.079 And he went and got his law degree, which he 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:35.839 turned out to be exceptional at. He had already 00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:38.940 had his master's in international relations. 00:22:39.309 --> 00:22:42.829 And he became a very well -known attorney for 00:22:42.829 --> 00:22:45.869 the United States government. Before he worked 00:22:45.869 --> 00:22:48.430 for the United States government, though, he 00:22:48.430 --> 00:22:52.210 took on a case, Jim, that became widely known, 00:22:52.269 --> 00:22:56.710 and it was for a Vietnam veteran. And he took 00:22:56.710 --> 00:23:01.109 the case when nobody else would because the veteran 00:23:01.109 --> 00:23:04.789 was clearly guilty and had committed a felony. 00:23:05.289 --> 00:23:09.029 And my dad... looked through all his files and 00:23:09.029 --> 00:23:12.009 met with him and said, I'm going to take this 00:23:12.009 --> 00:23:16.670 case. And it turned out to be a case that really 00:23:16.670 --> 00:23:20.930 turned out to advocate for veterans that needed 00:23:20.930 --> 00:23:23.529 mental health care that they weren't getting 00:23:23.529 --> 00:23:27.150 from our government. And so he was one of the 00:23:27.150 --> 00:23:29.769 men at the forefront of standing up and saying, 00:23:29.950 --> 00:23:33.470 OK, we need to take care of these guys. Before 00:23:33.470 --> 00:23:36.329 post -traumatic stress disorder was even a term. 00:23:36.490 --> 00:23:40.670 he was at the forefront of advocating for mental 00:23:40.670 --> 00:23:44.029 health awareness for veterans. This is, listeners, 00:23:44.309 --> 00:23:48.269 this is a story of a real American hero and that 00:23:48.269 --> 00:23:51.789 term can be overused but when you read this book 00:23:51.789 --> 00:23:57.190 by Amy Shively Hawk at six years in the Hanoi 00:23:57.190 --> 00:24:02.519 Hilton You'll find out that Jim Shively was from 00:24:02.519 --> 00:24:06.539 his entire body of work from what he did in the 00:24:06.539 --> 00:24:10.740 service to his completion of helping veterans. 00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:14.480 This is a guy that we're all really proud of. 00:24:14.839 --> 00:24:17.160 Amy, I want to thank you for writing this. How 00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:20.720 can people find out more about what you're doing 00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:24.039 and find the book and that sort of stuff? Give 00:24:24.039 --> 00:24:26.700 us a website or two that they can follow you. 00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:34.119 Sure. I'm at AmyHawk .com. The book is Six Years 00:24:34.119 --> 00:24:37.920 in the Hanoi Hilton and the foreword is by John 00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:42.039 McCain. It's available on Amazon .com and at 00:24:42.039 --> 00:24:45.339 Barnes and Noble and in bookstores near you. 00:24:45.700 --> 00:24:48.119 And I wanted to mention that I am partnering 00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:51.779 with the Headstrong organization, which they 00:24:51.779 --> 00:24:54.839 provide free mental health care to veterans that 00:24:54.839 --> 00:24:58.509 have post -traumatic stress disorder. It's an 00:24:58.509 --> 00:25:01.970 organization that I found that is run by veterans 00:25:01.970 --> 00:25:05.730 so they understand and it's a program that works. 00:25:06.349 --> 00:25:09.250 So I'm donating part of the proceeds from this 00:25:09.250 --> 00:25:12.589 book towards their organization because I know 00:25:12.589 --> 00:25:14.809 my dad would like that. He would want this to 00:25:14.809 --> 00:25:19.170 be about promoting healthcare and awareness for 00:25:19.170 --> 00:25:22.309 veterans. Well, I'm sure he's proud of you up 00:25:22.309 --> 00:25:25.250 there, and we're certainly proud of him. We really 00:25:25.250 --> 00:25:27.670 enjoyed the book. I want to thank everybody for 00:25:27.670 --> 00:25:30.809 listening to Veterans Radio today. I am Jim Fossone. 00:25:30.849 --> 00:25:33.309 It's been a pleasure to be your host. I'm a Veterans 00:25:33.309 --> 00:25:35.730 Disability Lawyer at Legal Help for Veterans, 00:25:36.130 --> 00:25:41.390 and you can reach us at 800 -693 -4800. or legal 00:25:41.390 --> 00:25:44.309 help for veterans dot com you can follow veterans 00:25:44.309 --> 00:25:47.509 radio on facebook and listen to our podcast and 00:25:47.509 --> 00:25:51.750 internet radio shows at veterans radio dot net 00:25:51.750 --> 00:25:54.130 the medal of honor is the highest award for baller 00:25:54.130 --> 00:25:56.230 and combat given a member of the armed forces 00:25:56.230 --> 00:25:58.529 of the united states there have been over three 00:25:58.529 --> 00:26:00.890 thousand four hundred recipients of the nation's 00:26:00.890 --> 00:26:04.549 highest award this is one of the first class 00:26:04.549 --> 00:26:07.369 paul smith gave his life to protect his troops 00:26:08.309 --> 00:26:15.109 Details after this. On April 4, 2003, a call 00:26:15.109 --> 00:26:17.410 went out for a place to put some Iraqi prisoners. 00:26:18.289 --> 00:26:20.849 Sergeant First Class Paul Smith volunteered to 00:26:20.849 --> 00:26:23.670 create a holding pen inside a walled courtyard. 00:26:24.470 --> 00:26:27.509 Soon, Iraqi soldiers, numbering perhaps 100, 00:26:28.069 --> 00:26:31.309 opened fire on Smith's position. Smith was accompanied 00:26:31.309 --> 00:26:34.910 by 16 men. Smith called for a Bradley, a tank 00:26:34.910 --> 00:26:37.910 -like vehicle with a rapid -fire cannon. It arrived 00:26:37.910 --> 00:26:40.869 and opened up on the Iraqis. The enemy could 00:26:40.869 --> 00:26:43.170 not advance so long as the Bradley was in position. 00:26:43.569 --> 00:26:46.069 But then, in a move that baffled and angered 00:26:46.069 --> 00:26:50.109 Smith's men, the Bradley left. Smith's men, some 00:26:50.109 --> 00:26:52.230 of whom were wounded, were suddenly vulnerable. 00:26:52.970 --> 00:26:55.049 Smith could have justifiably ordered his men 00:26:55.049 --> 00:26:58.150 to withdraw. Smith rejected that option, thinking 00:26:58.150 --> 00:27:00.650 that abandoning the courtyard would jeopardize 00:27:00.650 --> 00:27:03.450 about 100 GIs outside, including medics at an 00:27:03.450 --> 00:27:06.740 aid station. He manned a 50 caliber machine gun 00:27:06.740 --> 00:27:09.500 atop an abandoned armored personnel carrier and 00:27:09.500 --> 00:27:12.039 fought off the Iraqis going through several boxes 00:27:12.039 --> 00:27:15.400 of ammunition. As the battle wound down, Smith 00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:18.279 was hit in the head. He died before he could 00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:20.559 be evacuated from the scene. The Medal of Honor 00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:32.819 series is a production of Veterans Radio. This 00:27:32.819 --> 00:27:39.440 is Veterans Radio. This is Veterans Radio. And 00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:43.539 now, your host for today's program, Jim Fawzone. 00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:54.140 Welcome to Veterans Radio. I am Jim Fawzone with 00:27:54.140 --> 00:27:57.680 VeteransRadio .net. We're recording today from 00:27:57.680 --> 00:27:59.819 the Legal Help for Veterans studio in Northville, 00:27:59.819 --> 00:28:02.799 Michigan. Legal Help for Veterans is this Veterans 00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:07.099 Disability Law Firm. You can reach at 800 -693 00:28:07.099 --> 00:28:12.319 -4800. And we're really pleased today to have 00:28:12.319 --> 00:28:15.740 a couple of guests on Veterans Radio to talk 00:28:15.740 --> 00:28:20.160 about a Veterans Entrepreneurship Program that 00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:24.180 the state of Florida is spearheading. We have 00:28:24.180 --> 00:28:28.279 with us Dr. Sandra Kalanui, who's the Director 00:28:28.279 --> 00:28:31.569 of of Institute for Entrepreneurship at Florida 00:28:31.569 --> 00:28:34.430 Gulf Coast University. Dr. Sander, welcome to 00:28:34.430 --> 00:28:37.910 Veterans Radio. Well, I'm glad to be here. And 00:28:37.910 --> 00:28:41.269 we also have a veteran who has gone through the 00:28:41.269 --> 00:28:44.309 program, a Marine, served eight years, James 00:28:44.309 --> 00:28:46.950 Hardenbrook. James, welcome to Veterans Radio. 00:28:48.029 --> 00:28:49.509 Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate 00:28:49.509 --> 00:28:52.259 it. Well, we're glad to have veterans like you. 00:28:52.299 --> 00:28:54.839 You served in the Marines for eight years, and 00:28:54.839 --> 00:28:58.339 you've now been with the VA in Cape Coral. I 00:28:58.339 --> 00:29:00.799 believe Florida is sort of a logistics manager 00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:04.660 since 2012. And this program's giving you an 00:29:04.660 --> 00:29:08.220 opportunity to branch into a new area. I think 00:29:08.220 --> 00:29:10.160 something many of us think about doing, and that 00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:12.880 is starting our own business. But Dr. Sander, 00:29:12.940 --> 00:29:15.920 why don't you tell us a little bit about this 00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:19.809 Veterans Florida Entrepreneurship Program? Thank 00:29:19.809 --> 00:29:23.950 you. The program is designed to help veterans 00:29:23.950 --> 00:29:27.690 start businesses. So we have, there are seven 00:29:27.690 --> 00:29:30.829 different places across the state at universities, 00:29:30.930 --> 00:29:33.930 seven different universities that have developed, 00:29:33.990 --> 00:29:37.390 that have this program. And the way it works 00:29:37.390 --> 00:29:42.089 is that veterans come in every other week this 00:29:42.089 --> 00:29:44.210 year. Last year we did a little bit differently. 00:29:44.630 --> 00:29:47.269 We're pivoting and changing as we go to see what 00:29:47.309 --> 00:29:49.829 what are some of the best practices, but they 00:29:49.829 --> 00:29:53.549 come into the university for a full day every 00:29:53.549 --> 00:29:57.849 other week and we have a half a day of instruction 00:29:57.849 --> 00:30:00.410 and explain to them, you know, different parts 00:30:00.410 --> 00:30:02.970 of how to start the business and then in the 00:30:02.970 --> 00:30:06.690 afternoon we bring in mentors from the community 00:30:06.690 --> 00:30:09.750 that have been entrepreneurs and been successful 00:30:09.750 --> 00:30:13.559 entrepreneurs who volunteer their time. to work 00:30:13.559 --> 00:30:16.660 with the individual veteran to help them with 00:30:16.660 --> 00:30:21.559 their particular plan and what they want to do. 00:30:22.119 --> 00:30:26.859 And we do that over this year. It's over a 15 00:30:26.859 --> 00:30:31.240 -week period. Every other Saturday on the alternating 00:30:31.240 --> 00:30:35.019 week that they're not in the classroom or working 00:30:35.019 --> 00:30:38.859 on their business in the university, they are 00:30:38.890 --> 00:30:42.589 We do an online work with them. We communicate 00:30:42.589 --> 00:30:44.630 with them. They send us information. We have 00:30:44.630 --> 00:30:50.049 an online program as well. And for us, we've 00:30:50.049 --> 00:30:53.390 made our university open to our veterans. So 00:30:53.390 --> 00:30:55.990 we have an incubator, and they will come out 00:30:55.990 --> 00:30:59.170 here. And two days a week, we open it for them 00:30:59.170 --> 00:31:01.329 to come. They can come any time they want, but 00:31:01.329 --> 00:31:03.789 two days a week, we're available one -on -one 00:31:03.789 --> 00:31:06.329 to meet with them and help them during the week. 00:31:06.509 --> 00:31:09.730 Because once they get started, they need help 00:31:09.730 --> 00:31:12.569 going through the process and making all of the 00:31:12.569 --> 00:31:14.970 pivots and changes they need to make as they 00:31:14.970 --> 00:31:17.470 test different ways of starting their business. 00:31:17.829 --> 00:31:20.849 Now, Dr. Sanders, did this idea start at Florida 00:31:20.849 --> 00:31:24.390 Gulf Coast University or did it start at the 00:31:24.390 --> 00:31:26.450 State of Florida's Department of Veterans Affairs? 00:31:26.549 --> 00:31:30.509 Where did it start? It started, it was a grant 00:31:30.509 --> 00:31:35.119 that was provided by the through the Congress 00:31:35.119 --> 00:31:38.539 for the state of Florida to attract veterans 00:31:38.539 --> 00:31:43.599 to Florida and to keep our veterans here. So 00:31:43.599 --> 00:31:47.240 the grant was provided to veteransflorida .org 00:31:47.240 --> 00:31:50.079 which is an organization that supports veterans 00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:53.220 both part of the funding they get is to help 00:31:53.220 --> 00:31:56.359 them with jobs and the other part is to start 00:31:56.359 --> 00:31:59.200 entrepreneurship and start up entrepreneurial 00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:04.529 business and they put out bids for grants and 00:32:04.529 --> 00:32:08.910 the first year five universities received the 00:32:08.910 --> 00:32:13.769 funding for this and the state and then it turned 00:32:13.769 --> 00:32:17.250 out that the way it worked we ended up they came 00:32:17.250 --> 00:32:20.750 back to us and asked Veterans Florida asked us 00:32:20.750 --> 00:32:23.069 to develop the help to develop the curriculum 00:32:23.069 --> 00:32:26.210 for the program because this was brand new and 00:32:26.210 --> 00:32:28.369 we had been teaching entrepreneurship in the 00:32:28.369 --> 00:32:32.660 classroom so we helped to develop it and and 00:32:32.660 --> 00:32:37.460 train the other universities last year and then 00:32:37.460 --> 00:32:40.859 this year it's grown to seven universities now 00:32:40.859 --> 00:32:45.000 and we're all using the exact same program. So 00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:48.119 what's nice about that is if it's Saturday and 00:32:48.119 --> 00:32:51.579 it's a Veterans Day everyone is teaching basically 00:32:51.579 --> 00:32:54.480 the same material and they're doing the same 00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:58.190 mentoring in the afternoon. Could you give some 00:32:58.190 --> 00:33:00.910 examples of what the curriculum consists of, 00:33:01.009 --> 00:33:04.630 Dr. Sandra? Yes. It's based on the lean startup 00:33:04.630 --> 00:33:08.269 and what that is is how do you come up with a 00:33:08.269 --> 00:33:11.549 problem that needs to be solved in which people 00:33:11.549 --> 00:33:15.869 are willing to pay you for. So something that's 00:33:15.869 --> 00:33:18.630 a problem or a service, it could be a product 00:33:18.630 --> 00:33:20.710 or service that people are willing to pay you 00:33:20.710 --> 00:33:26.789 for. and how do you do it by developing a minimum 00:33:26.789 --> 00:33:30.230 viable product, so develop something that's a 00:33:30.230 --> 00:33:32.910 minimum service, minimum viable product that 00:33:32.910 --> 00:33:37.170 you can economically get and start your business. 00:33:37.569 --> 00:33:40.730 Once you start it and it can grow, then you can 00:33:40.730 --> 00:33:44.250 start to do more and more services and more and 00:33:44.250 --> 00:33:47.289 more things. But to begin with, let's not go 00:33:47.289 --> 00:33:51.720 bankrupt. before you make sure that it's actually 00:33:51.720 --> 00:33:55.039 a viable product. So if you do it inexpensively, 00:33:55.099 --> 00:34:00.140 what that does is it allows you to test the product, 00:34:00.259 --> 00:34:02.839 test the demand, and make sure that it's viable 00:34:02.839 --> 00:34:05.359 before you go spend a whole lot of your life 00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:11.219 savings on it. So we teach that. The Lean Startup 00:34:11.219 --> 00:34:14.119 method is what we teach in the classrooms as 00:34:14.119 --> 00:34:20.900 well. Four or five years it has become a major 00:34:20.900 --> 00:34:24.900 change in the entrepreneurial world in how people 00:34:24.900 --> 00:34:28.139 were starting businesses. Rather than going out 00:34:28.139 --> 00:34:29.960 and trying to raise a million dollars and then 00:34:29.960 --> 00:34:35.139 it doesn't work, let's test it with a small amount 00:34:35.139 --> 00:34:38.909 of capital and see if we can get it. Well, I 00:34:38.909 --> 00:34:40.969 think the listeners of Veterans Radio just got 00:34:40.969 --> 00:34:43.570 their pearl of wisdom for the podcast because 00:34:43.570 --> 00:34:45.769 there's none other than that right there because 00:34:45.769 --> 00:34:48.769 so many times I hear people come in with these 00:34:48.769 --> 00:34:51.989 grandiose plans. You really got to focus on, 00:34:52.030 --> 00:34:55.869 as you say, that minimal problem to be solved 00:34:55.869 --> 00:34:58.309 that can be started up and test the theory and 00:34:58.309 --> 00:35:00.610 see if it works. Who's the faculty for these 00:35:00.610 --> 00:35:04.530 sorts of things? Yeah, we use at our faculty, 00:35:05.050 --> 00:35:08.030 I'm the chair of the entrepreneurship program 00:35:08.030 --> 00:35:12.289 here at FGCU. We use, I do it, we have other 00:35:12.289 --> 00:35:15.949 entrepreneurship faculty and we also use instructors 00:35:15.949 --> 00:35:18.929 that teach in entrepreneurship. So we use our 00:35:18.929 --> 00:35:22.610 entrepreneurship faculty and then we use mentors 00:35:22.610 --> 00:35:26.570 who have been successful entrepreneurs. So we 00:35:26.570 --> 00:35:32.440 use a combination of those to do the. And we 00:35:32.440 --> 00:35:36.059 happened to have, at GCU, we were lucky enough 00:35:36.059 --> 00:35:39.539 to get some donor money, which some of the schools 00:35:39.539 --> 00:35:42.699 have and some haven't. That's really an individual 00:35:42.699 --> 00:35:46.460 thing. And so we're able to help at the end by 00:35:46.460 --> 00:35:49.980 having a compassionate shark tank. And so the 00:35:49.980 --> 00:35:52.619 veterans were able to pitch for it. In addition, 00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:55.559 we had some other funding from another veteran 00:35:55.559 --> 00:35:58.500 that had specific requirements as far as years 00:35:58.500 --> 00:36:01.670 of service. And we were able to get some of these 00:36:01.670 --> 00:36:04.369 veterans seed funding so they didn't have to 00:36:04.369 --> 00:36:06.369 go out and borrow money to start their business. 00:36:06.610 --> 00:36:10.510 Well, let me bring in James Hardenbrook. Yes. 00:36:10.949 --> 00:36:14.469 A Marine has a full -time job, it looks like, 00:36:15.230 --> 00:36:18.409 and for many, that probably keeps them more than 00:36:18.409 --> 00:36:21.610 busy enough, probably a family as well. And somewhere 00:36:21.610 --> 00:36:24.050 along the line, James, you said, I want to get 00:36:24.050 --> 00:36:27.420 into... business of my own. After your family 00:36:27.420 --> 00:36:30.099 said you're nuts, tell us how you got attracted 00:36:30.099 --> 00:36:34.320 to this program. Basically, I asked my wife. 00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:37.280 I was actually sitting there one day at the house 00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:39.820 and she came in and she said, hey, I'm pretty 00:36:39.820 --> 00:36:42.000 sure you'd be interested in taking this program. 00:36:42.099 --> 00:36:44.280 I said, all right, what is it? So she kind of 00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:47.079 read off some things and I said, yeah, sounds 00:36:47.079 --> 00:36:49.139 like something I might be interested in devoting 00:36:49.139 --> 00:36:52.360 some time to. Well, long story short, over a 00:36:52.360 --> 00:36:56.389 year later, I'm still working with them. We found 00:36:56.389 --> 00:36:59.170 a business model that I like. One thing that 00:36:59.170 --> 00:37:01.469 I like to do is take a look at other businesses, 00:37:01.570 --> 00:37:04.570 how they operate, kind of apply the Lean Six 00:37:04.570 --> 00:37:06.929 Sigma process to it and see how I could possibly 00:37:06.929 --> 00:37:11.989 make it better. I had her sign me up for the 00:37:11.989 --> 00:37:15.869 course. Went ahead, I attended the course. We 00:37:15.869 --> 00:37:19.409 started looking at possibilities of different 00:37:19.409 --> 00:37:22.480 things that we could do, and my wife staying 00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:24.619 home, taking care of our daughter, she started 00:37:24.619 --> 00:37:27.099 talking about wanting to gain maybe some part 00:37:27.099 --> 00:37:31.179 -time employment. So what we came up with was 00:37:31.179 --> 00:37:35.860 we could do a food construction trailer. After 00:37:35.860 --> 00:37:38.800 we learned that a brick and mortar store cost 00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:42.300 way more than what we could actually afford, 00:37:43.900 --> 00:37:47.219 going through the course, we figured out that 00:37:47.219 --> 00:37:50.889 the minimum viable So James, you're breaking 00:37:50.889 --> 00:37:52.750 up a little bit. I'm going to have you get to 00:37:52.750 --> 00:37:54.829 someplace where we can get some better clarity 00:37:54.829 --> 00:37:58.789 on the phone call. But Dr. Sandra, in the curriculum 00:37:58.789 --> 00:38:01.630 that you teach, are there, I mean, this is like 00:38:01.630 --> 00:38:04.210 a segment on business plans or marketing or finance. 00:38:04.250 --> 00:38:07.269 What do you walk through? Yeah, we first start 00:38:07.269 --> 00:38:10.250 out with having them put together a business 00:38:10.250 --> 00:38:13.949 model canvas, which is basically Okay, what's 00:38:13.949 --> 00:38:16.929 the problem? What's the solution? Who's your 00:38:16.929 --> 00:38:19.309 target market? How are you going to take the 00:38:19.309 --> 00:38:22.630 market? And it's in a map sort of form, so that 00:38:22.630 --> 00:38:24.730 before you try to write a full business plan, 00:38:25.150 --> 00:38:27.230 you kind of map it out, and then how are you 00:38:27.230 --> 00:38:30.309 going to test that it works? So how do you go 00:38:30.309 --> 00:38:33.269 talk to people, get outside the building, talk 00:38:33.269 --> 00:38:37.110 to people, and confirm that it works? So in James' 00:38:37.289 --> 00:38:40.849 case, he found out that You know, really people, 00:38:41.510 --> 00:38:44.389 there was a big diversity of where people were 00:38:44.389 --> 00:38:47.610 that wanted his product and maybe, you know, 00:38:47.869 --> 00:38:49.869 putting it in a brick and mortar store, not only 00:38:49.869 --> 00:38:53.429 expensive, but probably wasn't the best way to 00:38:53.429 --> 00:38:58.449 get to his marketplace. So, that goes going out 00:38:58.449 --> 00:39:00.449 and testing it. We do that and we go through 00:39:00.449 --> 00:39:03.349 each of the subsections as far as what that means. 00:39:03.449 --> 00:39:06.110 You know, what does it mean? for how do you put 00:39:06.110 --> 00:39:07.809 together your marketing plan, how do you put 00:39:07.809 --> 00:39:10.110 together your pricing model and things like that. 00:39:10.369 --> 00:39:13.329 Once they've done that, then they start to develop 00:39:13.329 --> 00:39:16.809 a plan to launch their business. Very differently 00:39:16.809 --> 00:39:18.909 than we talk about a business plan that tries 00:39:18.909 --> 00:39:21.809 to project out five years and what wonderful 00:39:21.809 --> 00:39:25.090 things you're going to do. Let's talk about launching 00:39:25.090 --> 00:39:27.190 it and how long is it going to take to break 00:39:27.190 --> 00:39:30.750 even because you need to have enough capital 00:39:30.750 --> 00:39:33.289 so that you can launch it and you can break even. 00:39:34.360 --> 00:39:37.340 And once you start to make money, it's a lot 00:39:37.340 --> 00:39:39.780 easier to run your business. But you have to 00:39:39.780 --> 00:39:43.780 get to that point first. So that's the process. 00:39:43.880 --> 00:39:48.300 They come out with a full plan to launch and 00:39:48.300 --> 00:39:51.559 get their business going as part of the process 00:39:51.559 --> 00:39:55.300 of the program. So they literally have the whole 00:39:55.300 --> 00:39:59.219 thing done when they leave at the end of six, 00:39:59.239 --> 00:40:04.079 eight weeks, 14 weeks of the program. James, 00:40:04.119 --> 00:40:06.420 I wanted to bring you back in and ask you how 00:40:06.420 --> 00:40:10.500 scary it was to walk into this program on a college 00:40:10.500 --> 00:40:13.440 campus when that really wasn't your background 00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:17.440 and walking into this the first time, kind of 00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:19.500 what would you tell other veterans who might 00:40:19.500 --> 00:40:23.900 have a little bit of fear or trepidation? I would 00:40:23.900 --> 00:40:31.300 say that basically I'm not a educational speaking 00:40:31.300 --> 00:40:35.150 type individual, but Walking into the program, 00:40:35.750 --> 00:40:39.409 the instructors and the other veterans who attended 00:40:39.409 --> 00:40:42.929 the class, it basically was kind of a... You 00:40:42.929 --> 00:40:45.329 start to build that camaraderie that veterans 00:40:45.329 --> 00:40:49.070 in general have, where everybody is more than 00:40:49.070 --> 00:40:53.190 willing to go above and beyond whatever it is 00:40:53.190 --> 00:40:56.230 that you need, if you need any help at all. The 00:40:56.230 --> 00:40:59.090 biggest thing is, I guess everybody... Most people 00:40:59.090 --> 00:41:02.320 would have an issue with... Saying I need help 00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:04.639 with something because everybody thinks that 00:41:04.639 --> 00:41:07.300 you know they can do everything themselves That's 00:41:07.300 --> 00:41:10.099 not the case and I found that if I have an issue 00:41:10.099 --> 00:41:13.079 with something I can you know ask somebody else 00:41:13.079 --> 00:41:15.639 to kind of take it on and help me with it and 00:41:15.639 --> 00:41:18.440 then they come back with multiple different scenarios 00:41:18.440 --> 00:41:22.960 or different avenues of approach that I didn't 00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:25.539 think of myself and it actually becomes a lot 00:41:25.539 --> 00:41:28.699 more a lot more conducive to the learning environment 00:41:28.699 --> 00:41:31.360 when you know, there's a lot of people that are 00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:34.539 willing to help you. James, do you think this 00:41:34.539 --> 00:41:37.679 was something that you were willing to sort of 00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:40.039 overcome that initial reluctance on because it 00:41:40.039 --> 00:41:44.719 was veteran focused as compared to just a business 00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:48.559 startup program somewhere else or with a whole 00:41:48.559 --> 00:41:53.280 bunch of different folks? I do. I firmly believe 00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:55.760 that because it was a veterans program, if it 00:41:55.760 --> 00:41:58.880 was anything other than a classroom full of veterans, 00:41:59.699 --> 00:42:01.760 more than likely would not have been interested 00:42:01.760 --> 00:42:05.219 in it, just because I wouldn't have had the things 00:42:05.219 --> 00:42:08.420 in common with the other students that were attending 00:42:08.420 --> 00:42:12.929 the class as well. And Dr. Sandra, as you've 00:42:12.929 --> 00:42:15.909 approached this, you've got a PhD, you've got 00:42:15.909 --> 00:42:19.530 an MBA, most of the folks in this class, I suspect, 00:42:19.610 --> 00:42:23.489 don't have college degrees, maybe no community 00:42:23.489 --> 00:42:27.710 college sort of thing. How do you approach the 00:42:27.710 --> 00:42:30.309 subject matter differently because you're working 00:42:30.309 --> 00:42:35.110 with this particular type of cohort? I try and 00:42:35.110 --> 00:42:38.949 be very basic, but I also have lots of people 00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:43.460 with them, helping them. So a lot of them might 00:42:43.460 --> 00:42:46.480 struggle with the technology because we have 00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:50.340 software that we use for it. So we have our students 00:42:50.340 --> 00:42:53.139 sitting next to them. We have our volunteers 00:42:53.139 --> 00:42:57.280 sitting there and helping them. We understand 00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:02.019 that it's scary, but I also let them know I started 00:43:02.019 --> 00:43:04.820 the business before I had a college degree. I 00:43:04.820 --> 00:43:07.380 started my business when I was 22 years old. 00:43:07.530 --> 00:43:11.050 I did not have a degree. I did not have a lot 00:43:11.050 --> 00:43:13.590 of college under my belt at that point. So I 00:43:13.590 --> 00:43:16.730 try to teach it in the same way that I know they 00:43:16.730 --> 00:43:20.710 will understand it. I try to get to the basics 00:43:20.710 --> 00:43:24.349 of what needs to be done. And truthfully, I think 00:43:24.349 --> 00:43:29.269 some of our veterans, just like anybody else, 00:43:29.489 --> 00:43:32.630 struggles with technology, as well as I do sometimes. 00:43:32.989 --> 00:43:36.369 But we have enough help around to do the things 00:43:36.369 --> 00:43:39.380 that they're not comfortable with to help them. 00:43:40.159 --> 00:43:43.119 I think it's about that. There are no tests. 00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:48.619 There's not a stupid question. Everything has 00:43:48.619 --> 00:43:52.380 a meaning and needs to be asked. We're there 00:43:52.380 --> 00:43:55.940 to help them. Because everybody who works in 00:43:55.940 --> 00:43:59.019 this program at our university cares so deeply 00:43:59.019 --> 00:44:02.860 about the contribution veterans is made to our 00:44:02.860 --> 00:44:05.719 country. They're very proud to be there and very 00:44:05.719 --> 00:44:08.320 willing to do it. Nobody's doing it because they 00:44:08.320 --> 00:44:10.739 have to. They do it because they want to. I understand 00:44:10.739 --> 00:44:14.860 this is a no -cost program? Yes. It is no cost 00:44:14.860 --> 00:44:17.880 to the veterans. We get funding through a grant 00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:22.340 for enough to get us by. It's certainly not something 00:44:22.340 --> 00:44:25.559 that is, you know, if it were just for grant 00:44:25.559 --> 00:44:28.820 money, it's not what drives us. Everybody in 00:44:28.820 --> 00:44:32.539 that room is... there because they want to, including 00:44:32.539 --> 00:44:36.480 twenty to thirty mentors that come every single 00:44:36.480 --> 00:44:39.780 Saturday and spend their afternoons doing nothing 00:44:39.780 --> 00:44:42.300 but sitting there helping them. Let me ask, and 00:44:42.300 --> 00:44:43.900 before I turn to James, I want to talk about 00:44:43.900 --> 00:44:46.659 the business he's working on. Can I hear from 00:44:46.659 --> 00:44:49.139 you, Dr. Sander, whether or not this kind of 00:44:49.139 --> 00:44:53.480 program is at other universities or other states 00:44:53.480 --> 00:44:56.179 are implementing this sort of thing? Yes, but 00:44:56.179 --> 00:44:59.159 there are other states that are implementing 00:44:59.599 --> 00:45:02.079 things that are a little bit different and some 00:45:02.079 --> 00:45:06.320 of them they can travel across to a different 00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:10.260 state to get to it. So I would encourage anything 00:45:10.260 --> 00:45:17.300 you can find to get this from a university. We 00:45:17.300 --> 00:45:22.179 particularly favor our loan just because we have 00:45:22.179 --> 00:45:26.719 enough time to let the veterans start and grow 00:45:26.719 --> 00:45:29.280 and work on their business over a period of time. 00:45:29.539 --> 00:45:31.699 And because they're community -based, all of 00:45:31.699 --> 00:45:34.260 our schools within the state are community -based 00:45:34.260 --> 00:45:36.519 so that veterans can come back and forth and 00:45:36.519 --> 00:45:39.840 get help, which makes a difference. But there 00:45:39.840 --> 00:45:45.699 are others. Syracuse has one out of the, that's 00:45:45.699 --> 00:45:49.239 where it's housed at, but they're in other states. 00:45:49.519 --> 00:45:52.980 So I would certainly say that if you're not in 00:45:52.980 --> 00:45:55.480 the state of Florida, that you should look at 00:45:55.480 --> 00:45:58.599 veterans entrepreneurship programs. Recommend 00:45:58.599 --> 00:46:01.539 not doing it totally online. Do it something 00:46:01.539 --> 00:46:04.039 where you actually get to people you can get 00:46:04.039 --> 00:46:06.960 help from. Hey James, tell us a little bit about 00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:11.039 the business you're planning out. So the business 00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:14.380 that we're planning on is actually named The 00:46:14.380 --> 00:46:17.699 Frozen Chosen. What we're going to do is we're 00:46:17.699 --> 00:46:21.679 customizing individual portioned ice creams with 00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:24.420 the use of liquid nitrogen. It's going to be 00:46:24.420 --> 00:46:27.820 as simple as you're going to tell us what cup 00:46:27.820 --> 00:46:31.599 size you want. You're going to pick a base that's 00:46:31.599 --> 00:46:34.699 going to start either chocolate or vanilla. You 00:46:34.699 --> 00:46:37.280 choose either what you want mixed in it or choose 00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:40.320 toppings. And basically, in under about a minute, 00:46:40.579 --> 00:46:44.219 we can have your ice cream made and you can consume 00:46:44.219 --> 00:46:46.840 it right then. With the use of liquid nitrogen, 00:46:46.860 --> 00:46:51.719 it actually creates a solid ice cream. with much 00:46:51.719 --> 00:46:54.679 smaller ice crystals than what the traditional 00:46:54.679 --> 00:46:57.460 hand scooped ice cream would be, which actually 00:46:57.460 --> 00:47:01.199 provides a higher quality product. We're also 00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:06.420 going to source only local fruits and produce. 00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:08.719 We're going to get them from a local farm here 00:47:08.719 --> 00:47:11.519 in Lee County. Our base is coming from a local 00:47:11.519 --> 00:47:14.679 to Florida ice cream base manufacturer. We've 00:47:14.679 --> 00:47:17.880 been in business almost 70 years, so we know 00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:20.329 that we're going to have a very consistent product. 00:47:21.650 --> 00:47:24.250 We're also going to follow along the military 00:47:24.250 --> 00:47:26.889 theme and create standard operating procedures. 00:47:27.670 --> 00:47:31.809 So that way, every single portion of ice cream 00:47:31.809 --> 00:47:34.949 that's made will have a very consistent flavor 00:47:34.949 --> 00:47:38.849 and texture to it. It sounds like a great idea. 00:47:38.909 --> 00:47:42.150 It's certainly down south where that will be 00:47:42.150 --> 00:47:44.769 well received in the warm weather. And you're 00:47:44.769 --> 00:47:46.530 going to do this out of a food truck? Is that 00:47:46.530 --> 00:47:49.570 the idea or a trailer? What's going to be the 00:47:49.570 --> 00:47:52.429 setting for it? So basically what we learned 00:47:52.429 --> 00:47:55.869 from the course was brick and mortar store is 00:47:55.869 --> 00:47:57.969 going to carry way too much overhead than what 00:47:57.969 --> 00:48:01.809 we'd be able to operate at. So doing it out of 00:48:01.809 --> 00:48:04.500 a food concession trailer We're going to be able 00:48:04.500 --> 00:48:07.059 to have the mobility to move to where our customers 00:48:07.059 --> 00:48:10.880 and our target market will be at. That will also 00:48:10.880 --> 00:48:14.559 allow us to strategize our specific target events 00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:17.719 that we plan on visiting. And then in the future, 00:48:17.800 --> 00:48:20.119 we'll also be able to open it up to catering 00:48:20.119 --> 00:48:23.079 for either birthdays or private events, weddings, 00:48:23.239 --> 00:48:25.320 things of that nature. And we'll be able to come 00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:28.780 to you rather than you, the inconvenience, come 00:48:28.780 --> 00:48:34.099 to our destination. James, could you talk a little 00:48:34.099 --> 00:48:37.280 bit about the impact the mentors had on you during 00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:43.539 this program? Absolutely. The mentors, I'll tell 00:48:43.539 --> 00:48:47.260 you one thing that the mentors did best for me 00:48:47.260 --> 00:48:51.059 is they kind of gave me a snapshot of basically 00:48:51.059 --> 00:48:54.260 the market or the idea that you plan to bring 00:48:54.260 --> 00:48:57.539 to the market does not care if it's a good idea 00:48:57.539 --> 00:49:01.320 or not. They're going to tell you what your product 00:49:01.320 --> 00:49:03.829 should look like. and what it should do for them. 00:49:04.469 --> 00:49:06.809 No matter how good of an idea that you have, 00:49:07.329 --> 00:49:09.929 it's a good idea to you, but it might not be 00:49:09.929 --> 00:49:13.070 a good idea to anybody that is willing to spend 00:49:13.070 --> 00:49:18.590 money on. So they gave me multiple, I would give 00:49:18.590 --> 00:49:21.170 them an example and they would come back with 00:49:21.170 --> 00:49:23.289 multiple different questions that I would then 00:49:23.289 --> 00:49:26.309 go back out, question my target market and come 00:49:26.309 --> 00:49:30.010 back with and the majority of the time they were 00:49:30.010 --> 00:49:35.420 right and It's just things that they've been 00:49:35.420 --> 00:49:38.699 exposed to in the past that somebody like me 00:49:38.699 --> 00:49:41.900 first starting out doesn't have the experience 00:49:41.900 --> 00:49:45.519 or the forethought to actually think of things 00:49:45.519 --> 00:49:50.679 like that. The mentors themselves have saved 00:49:50.679 --> 00:49:54.000 me so much money and I haven't even launched 00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:57.329 yet. Well, and I think this is the sort of thing 00:49:57.329 --> 00:50:00.349 that we veterans can also appreciate. We all 00:50:00.349 --> 00:50:03.889 learn from our chiefs or our sergeants, if you 00:50:03.889 --> 00:50:06.650 will, and they've been there, done that. Kid, 00:50:06.989 --> 00:50:09.190 I'm trying to save you some grief. And that's 00:50:09.190 --> 00:50:11.110 kind of what the mentors are doing too for you, 00:50:11.170 --> 00:50:15.190 it sounds like. Yeah, absolutely. And the mentors 00:50:15.190 --> 00:50:19.650 are everybody and anybody you could ever think 00:50:19.650 --> 00:50:22.710 of, from all different business backgrounds to 00:50:22.840 --> 00:50:26.019 you know, just all walks of life. And if you 00:50:26.019 --> 00:50:28.960 can't find someone somewhere who's a mentor in 00:50:28.960 --> 00:50:33.360 there that you can connect with somewhere, then, 00:50:33.360 --> 00:50:36.599 you know, the class has done a very, very good 00:50:36.599 --> 00:50:39.320 job of, you know, Dr. Kauanui has done a great 00:50:39.320 --> 00:50:42.199 job of saying, you know, I have an individual 00:50:42.199 --> 00:50:44.380 that you could probably speak with, and then 00:50:44.380 --> 00:50:47.179 she gets right back to us with, you know, that 00:50:47.179 --> 00:50:49.980 point of contact or that individual that we should 00:50:49.980 --> 00:50:53.030 make contact with and set something up. And she's 00:50:53.030 --> 00:50:55.030 been there with me on multiple occasions and 00:50:55.030 --> 00:50:58.369 they've turned out to be great individuals that 00:50:58.369 --> 00:51:01.389 I would have never met if I didn't take the course. 00:51:01.929 --> 00:51:04.130 Dr. Kalanui, as we come to the end of our time 00:51:04.130 --> 00:51:07.949 available here, can you maybe give our listeners 00:51:07.949 --> 00:51:11.210 a website or a contact approach if they wanted 00:51:11.210 --> 00:51:13.949 to keep track of the program or assist in the 00:51:13.949 --> 00:51:17.010 program or learn more about it? Yeah, well, I 00:51:17.010 --> 00:51:19.110 can give them a couple of different things. The 00:51:19.110 --> 00:51:26.730 Veterans Florida is Veterans Florida .org. They 00:51:26.730 --> 00:51:29.769 can go to that and they should be able to talk 00:51:29.769 --> 00:51:32.909 about it. I'm looking at it right now. It's got 00:51:32.909 --> 00:51:35.769 the entrepreneurship program on there. They can 00:51:35.769 --> 00:51:42.670 get that information from there. My name is hard 00:51:42.670 --> 00:51:50.679 to spell. is our website, and we've got information 00:51:50.679 --> 00:51:53.880 on there about the Veterans Florida. But the 00:51:53.880 --> 00:51:56.099 best place to, the entrepreneurship program, 00:51:56.219 --> 00:51:59.059 the best place is to go to Veterans Florida Entrepreneurship 00:51:59.059 --> 00:52:04.179 Program website. The other is, if they don't 00:52:04.179 --> 00:52:06.400 have, if they're not in Florida, they should 00:52:06.400 --> 00:52:10.800 just go on and search, well, search Veterans 00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:13.760 Entrepreneurship, and they will find some programs. 00:52:13.860 --> 00:52:17.079 There are several amongst. several states that 00:52:17.079 --> 00:52:20.860 they defied it in. Well, I want to thank James 00:52:20.860 --> 00:52:25.340 Herdenbrook and Dr. Sandra Kalanui for talking 00:52:25.340 --> 00:52:27.880 to us today on Veterans Radio and thank everybody 00:52:27.880 --> 00:52:30.900 for listening to Veterans Radio today. I am Jim 00:52:30.900 --> 00:52:33.079 Fossone. It's been a pleasure to be your host. 00:52:33.539 --> 00:52:35.780 I'm a veterans disability lawyer at Legal Help 00:52:35.780 --> 00:52:39.360 for Veterans and you can reach us at 800 -693 00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:44.659 -4800 or at the web with legalhelpforveterans 00:52:44.659 --> 00:52:47.760 .com. You can follow Veterans Radio on Facebook 00:52:47.760 --> 00:52:50.599 and listen to our podcasts and Internet radio 00:52:50.599 --> 00:52:55.179 shows at veteransradio .net. And until next time, 00:52:55.639 --> 00:52:56.980 you are dismissed.