WEBVTT 00:00:04.940 --> 00:00:08.740 All across America and around the world, this 00:00:08.740 --> 00:00:15.179 is Veterans Radio. This is Veterans Radio. And 00:00:15.179 --> 00:00:19.199 now, your host for today's program, Dale Throneberry. 00:00:23.079 --> 00:00:25.719 And good afternoon and welcome to Veterans Radio. 00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:29.339 My name is Dale Throneberry. I am a... Former 00:00:29.339 --> 00:00:31.620 helicopter pilot during the Vietnam conflict 00:00:31.620 --> 00:00:34.520 as they call it I was a cw2 as a warrant officer 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:37.460 closest thing to a civilian at the army had I 00:00:37.460 --> 00:00:40.159 loved my what I was doing over there, and I'm 00:00:40.159 --> 00:00:41.460 we're going to be talking a little bit about 00:00:41.460 --> 00:00:44.140 that in just a second I've got a great guest 00:00:44.140 --> 00:00:46.340 for us today on veterans radio, and I can't wait 00:00:46.340 --> 00:00:49.619 to talk with him his name is Jay kale Weston, 00:00:49.759 --> 00:00:51.619 and he's written a book entitled The Mirror Test, 00:00:51.719 --> 00:00:54.259 and it's about America at war in Iraq and Afghanistan. 00:00:54.960 --> 00:00:56.619 I think you got to stay tuned for this one. I 00:00:56.619 --> 00:00:59.280 think it's really, really an important story, 00:00:59.439 --> 00:01:01.079 and it's something I think we're going to learn 00:01:01.079 --> 00:01:03.679 a lot about as we get to listen to Cale talk 00:01:03.679 --> 00:01:07.260 about his experiences. For over seven years he 00:01:07.260 --> 00:01:10.359 was in Iraq and Afghanistan as a government worker, 00:01:10.400 --> 00:01:13.000 so I think that's kind of cool. All right, folks, 00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:14.980 all you Vietnam veterans out there, guess what? 00:01:14.980 --> 00:01:19.650 We now have our own day. Ta -da! Finally, President 00:01:19.650 --> 00:01:21.750 Trump signed a law declaring National Vietnam 00:01:21.750 --> 00:01:24.730 War Veterans Day. It's going to be on March 29th, 00:01:24.769 --> 00:01:28.150 every year in perpetuity, as they say, from here 00:01:28.150 --> 00:01:30.170 on out. And it's one of those days where people 00:01:30.170 --> 00:01:32.969 are authorized to fly their flags. But here at 00:01:32.969 --> 00:01:35.209 Veterans Radio, we believe that everybody should 00:01:35.209 --> 00:01:38.409 fly their flag every day. It's a fly your flag 00:01:38.409 --> 00:01:41.739 day. Every day is a fly your flag day. But the 00:01:41.739 --> 00:01:44.620 bill was sponsored by Senator Pat Toomey, a Republican 00:01:44.620 --> 00:01:46.859 of Pennsylvania, and Joe Donnelly, a Democrat 00:01:46.859 --> 00:01:49.159 of Indiana, so bi -partisans can get something 00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:52.819 done. How about that? And in their statement, 00:01:52.939 --> 00:01:55.060 they say, 44 years have passed since the last 00:01:55.060 --> 00:01:57.799 U .S. troops withdrew from Vietnam. Due to the 00:01:57.799 --> 00:02:00.099 unpopularity of the war, veterans returning home 00:02:00.099 --> 00:02:02.540 were often met with disdain and did not necessarily 00:02:02.540 --> 00:02:05.319 receive support or gratitude for their service. 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:06.799 And this is one of the things that they felt 00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:11.439 that they could do. honor the Vietnam veteran 00:02:11.439 --> 00:02:14.259 and we honored all the warriors we tried to. 00:02:14.620 --> 00:02:17.539 Out of the 2 .7 million US servers members who 00:02:17.539 --> 00:02:19.939 served in Vietnam more than 58 ,000 were killed 00:02:19.939 --> 00:02:23.919 and more than 304 ,000 were wounded. I was just 00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:26.080 up at the Ann Arbor VA hospital the other day 00:02:26.080 --> 00:02:28.639 and that place is getting crowded with Vietnam 00:02:28.639 --> 00:02:30.990 veterans. folks, so we've got to make sure that 00:02:30.990 --> 00:02:33.229 we take care of these. I should point out that 00:02:33.229 --> 00:02:35.530 a proclamation by President Obama declared March 00:02:35.530 --> 00:02:38.770 29, 2012 as Vietnam Veterans Day, but that was 00:02:38.770 --> 00:02:41.969 only a one -time deal. And so now President Trump 00:02:41.969 --> 00:02:44.469 has signed the law declaring National Vietnam 00:02:44.469 --> 00:02:48.090 War Veterans Day. So every March 29, go up to 00:02:48.090 --> 00:02:50.509 your local Vietnam veteran and say welcome home, 00:02:50.550 --> 00:02:52.069 because that's the message that we love more 00:02:52.069 --> 00:02:54.330 than anything else. The other thing, speaking 00:02:54.330 --> 00:02:57.409 of Vietnam veterans, is I I'm not that familiar 00:02:57.409 --> 00:03:00.250 with Facebook and how it works and so on and 00:03:00.250 --> 00:03:02.789 so forth, but I got a great story from one of 00:03:02.789 --> 00:03:05.389 our favorite people here on Veterans Radio, and 00:03:05.389 --> 00:03:08.830 his name is Joe Galloway. And Joe Galloway is 00:03:08.830 --> 00:03:12.469 an author. He was in Vietnam. He was a journalist. 00:03:12.870 --> 00:03:15.469 He was at the Battle of the Ai Drang Valley. 00:03:15.569 --> 00:03:18.550 He was the author of one of the books, We Were 00:03:18.550 --> 00:03:20.889 Soldiers Once and Young. He is the only journalist 00:03:20.889 --> 00:03:24.889 to receive a Bronze Star for Valor. because of 00:03:24.889 --> 00:03:27.009 what he did during that day. And he's written 00:03:27.009 --> 00:03:28.909 many books and of course he has many commentaries 00:03:28.909 --> 00:03:31.449 and so forth. But he had an adventure the other 00:03:31.449 --> 00:03:33.509 day that I thought was kind of reminiscent of 00:03:33.509 --> 00:03:35.370 some that maybe some of you out there have had. 00:03:35.770 --> 00:03:38.250 He was driving down the road in Virginia and 00:03:38.250 --> 00:03:40.530 he said he was behind this truck and the truck 00:03:40.530 --> 00:03:43.409 was moseying and Joe didn't want to mosey anymore. 00:03:43.810 --> 00:03:45.870 So he pulled out and passed him in a no passing 00:03:45.870 --> 00:03:49.439 zone. Within seconds, he said, the blue lights 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:51.900 come on, the red lights come on directly behind 00:03:51.900 --> 00:03:53.780 him, and they pull him off to the side of the 00:03:53.780 --> 00:03:57.020 road. And he said, a very polite police officer 00:03:57.020 --> 00:03:59.759 came up, wrote him a ticket for passing in a 00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:03.319 no passing zone, got back in his car, and Joe 00:04:03.319 --> 00:04:07.199 said, I drove away. And he said, this cop car 00:04:07.199 --> 00:04:10.439 followed me. It was following me. It's 10 miles, 00:04:10.639 --> 00:04:13.080 11 miles, 12 miles. He's still back there. I'm 00:04:13.080 --> 00:04:15.240 going, what have I done? He's going to get me 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:18.430 again. Sure enough, just a little bit down the 00:04:18.430 --> 00:04:20.629 road, the blue lights, the red lights come on, 00:04:20.670 --> 00:04:23.189 and he pulled me over again. And I'm going, what 00:04:23.189 --> 00:04:25.009 did I do now? I've got another ticket coming? 00:04:25.149 --> 00:04:27.970 What? He says, the cop walks up to the window. 00:04:28.209 --> 00:04:30.189 I roll down the window, and I said, what? And 00:04:30.189 --> 00:04:33.149 he says, Mr. Galloway, I had no idea who you 00:04:33.149 --> 00:04:35.129 were. He took the ticket and crumbled it all 00:04:35.129 --> 00:04:37.829 up and threw it over his shoulder. And he said, 00:04:38.149 --> 00:04:40.829 my dispatcher, when I told him who I had pulled 00:04:40.829 --> 00:04:44.439 over, went nutto and said, Do you know who you 00:04:44.439 --> 00:04:47.759 just pulled over? And the policeman that had 00:04:47.759 --> 00:04:49.439 written the ticket initially said, I just want 00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:51.920 to thank you as a veteran myself for all you 00:04:51.920 --> 00:04:54.740 do to support veterans causes. And he says, you 00:04:54.740 --> 00:04:57.939 know, have a safe trip home. And Joe says, so 00:04:57.939 --> 00:04:59.980 we got back on the road and continued on south 00:04:59.980 --> 00:05:02.279 toward home. And I don't know about you out there, 00:05:02.279 --> 00:05:04.500 but I have had a similar experience where I was 00:05:04.500 --> 00:05:07.459 pulled over one time by a policeman and I have 00:05:07.459 --> 00:05:10.180 a one of those license surrounds and it says 00:05:10.180 --> 00:05:13.379 United States Army Aviation School on it. and 00:05:13.379 --> 00:05:15.699 as he walked up to the car I saw him look over 00:05:15.699 --> 00:05:18.560 and look at the license plate and he came up 00:05:18.560 --> 00:05:21.480 and he said he says sir he says are you a veteran 00:05:21.480 --> 00:05:23.980 I said yes I am and he says sir I would suggest 00:05:23.980 --> 00:05:27.040 that you slow down and he walked back to the 00:05:27.040 --> 00:05:30.819 car and that was it so you know if you're nice 00:05:30.819 --> 00:05:33.879 to him And you've got a veteran sticker on your 00:05:33.879 --> 00:05:36.439 car. You know, it's like the police -benevolent 00:05:36.439 --> 00:05:39.480 association or whatever it is. Maybe if you don't 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:42.319 do something too bad, you might be able to get 00:05:42.319 --> 00:05:44.459 away with it and get that warning instead of 00:05:44.459 --> 00:05:46.779 getting the ticket. So anyway, so Joe Galloway. 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:48.879 Thanks for sharing that story. I thought it was 00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:51.339 kind of fun that you did that. We're going to 00:05:51.339 --> 00:05:53.060 take a break real quick. And when we come back, 00:05:53.139 --> 00:05:56.240 we're going to be talking with Cale Weston, who 00:05:56.240 --> 00:05:58.360 is the author of the book, The Mirror Test. And 00:05:58.360 --> 00:06:00.319 let me give you a little promo about him before 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:02.899 we could do that. He represented the United States 00:06:02.899 --> 00:06:05.160 for over a decade as a State Department official 00:06:05.160 --> 00:06:08.300 and political advisor. Prior to his wartime service, 00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:11.040 seven consecutive years in Iraq and Afghanistan 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:13.779 alongside U .S. Marines and soldiers in Fallujah, 00:06:14.040 --> 00:06:17.800 coasts, Sadr City, and Helmand. He led American 00:06:17.800 --> 00:06:19.939 efforts and the UN Security Council to freeze 00:06:19.939 --> 00:06:23.519 and block al -Qaeda -linked assets. Washington 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:25.519 acknowledged his multi -year service in Fallujah 00:06:25.519 --> 00:06:27.579 with the Marines by awarding him one of the highest 00:06:27.579 --> 00:06:30.639 honors, the Secretary of State's Medal for Heroism. 00:06:31.389 --> 00:06:34.550 So this is our guest right here on Veterans Radio. 00:06:34.769 --> 00:06:36.850 So let me remind you, if you want to talk to 00:06:36.850 --> 00:06:40.170 Cale, you can give us a call here at WAAM. The 00:06:40.170 --> 00:06:46.610 number is 734 -822 -1600 or toll free 844 -838 00:06:46.610 --> 00:06:50.810 -1600. That's 844 -838 -1600. You can follow 00:06:50.810 --> 00:06:53.189 us on Facebook and Twitter and listen to our 00:06:53.189 --> 00:06:56.730 podcast on our website, veteransradio .net. And 00:06:56.730 --> 00:06:58.589 as I mentioned, we're going to take a quick break 00:06:58.589 --> 00:07:01.550 and we will be right back with our guest. Jake 00:07:01.550 --> 00:07:04.589 Kale Weston, the author of The Mirror Test. You're 00:07:04.589 --> 00:07:29.379 listening to Veterans Radio. And we are back 00:07:29.379 --> 00:07:33.300 on Veterans Radio, and bringing my guest on the 00:07:33.300 --> 00:07:36.740 line right now is J. Kale Weston, and his book 00:07:36.740 --> 00:07:39.279 is The Mirror Test, America at War in Iraq and 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:41.579 Afghanistan. Kale, welcome to Veterans Radio. 00:07:42.740 --> 00:07:44.759 Thank you, Dale, and I appreciate the opportunity 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:47.360 and the invitation. Thank you very much. I couldn't 00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:52.230 find a theme song for the State Department. Figured 00:07:52.230 --> 00:07:53.990 that would be as close as I could get with the 00:07:53.990 --> 00:07:55.610 Marines since you spent so much time with them 00:07:55.610 --> 00:07:58.029 anyway Yeah, we may not have a State Department 00:07:58.029 --> 00:08:01.709 for too much longer. We can talk about that as 00:08:01.709 --> 00:08:07.250 we go along So you know the title of your book 00:08:07.250 --> 00:08:10.069 is the mirror test and I wanted our audience 00:08:10.069 --> 00:08:12.610 to understand what the mirror test is so could 00:08:12.610 --> 00:08:16.410 you Give us a little definition of what the mirror 00:08:16.410 --> 00:08:21.040 test the definition is Sure, it's a medical term 00:08:21.040 --> 00:08:24.879 that doctors use when they've got a patient who 00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:27.439 particularly is badly disfigured in the face. 00:08:27.740 --> 00:08:30.620 And they let those patients determine when they're 00:08:30.620 --> 00:08:33.960 ready to look over their shoulder or look square 00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:36.960 on in the mirror and kind of come to terms with 00:08:36.960 --> 00:08:41.940 how the injuries have disfigured them. And in 00:08:41.940 --> 00:08:44.080 the case of my book, I focus on a Marine named 00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:47.940 Aaron Mankin who was badly, facially disfigured. 00:08:48.250 --> 00:08:50.990 in a roadside bomb, and he writes very eloquently 00:08:50.990 --> 00:08:55.269 about when he was ready to have his own mirror 00:08:55.269 --> 00:08:57.549 test. And I apply that throughout the book to 00:08:57.549 --> 00:08:59.529 the larger questions I think that we as a nation 00:08:59.529 --> 00:09:01.950 should consider when it comes to the wars in 00:09:01.950 --> 00:09:05.669 Iraq and Afghanistan. So tell me, how did you 00:09:05.669 --> 00:09:07.370 get involved with the State Department? What 00:09:07.370 --> 00:09:10.980 is your background? You know, I guess there's 00:09:10.980 --> 00:09:14.740 kind of two levels. One, I am the son and grandson 00:09:14.740 --> 00:09:18.440 of soldiers, also the nephew of soldiers. So 00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:20.720 one might think that the military was a more 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:23.360 likely course for me. But then by the time I 00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:25.919 was in high school, I found myself hanging out 00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:27.700 with a lot of foreign exchange students. And 00:09:27.700 --> 00:09:31.440 I was putting a lot of maps on my wall as a kid 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:34.700 next to those of the ski resorts in the national 00:09:34.700 --> 00:09:37.590 parks. I think I was always kind of focused on 00:09:37.590 --> 00:09:41.230 what was going on far, far away from my hometown. 00:09:41.509 --> 00:09:44.649 And then that led to studying a lot of history 00:09:44.649 --> 00:09:47.470 and international relations as a graduate student. 00:09:48.029 --> 00:09:51.289 And I started a PhD and realized I was more interested 00:09:51.289 --> 00:09:54.090 in what the policy challenges were the day than 00:09:54.090 --> 00:09:57.750 maybe the theories. And so I opted to make it 00:09:57.750 --> 00:10:00.830 official and join the State Department. OK. And 00:10:00.830 --> 00:10:05.149 so where did you start out? I started out in 00:10:05.149 --> 00:10:07.029 the Netherlands for a bit and then a big chunk 00:10:07.029 --> 00:10:11.909 of my time was in New York City right after and 00:10:11.909 --> 00:10:15.250 even right before 9 -11. So that really shifted 00:10:15.250 --> 00:10:17.409 the trajectory of my career, which I thought 00:10:17.409 --> 00:10:21.490 would be a lot of sort of the traditional diplomacy, 00:10:22.590 --> 00:10:24.909 UN Security Council issues, which is suit and 00:10:24.909 --> 00:10:28.480 tie every day and a lot of... chapter 7 negotiations 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:31.940 with various other delegations and I think for 00:10:31.940 --> 00:10:36.240 many diplomats 9 -11 really shifted a lot of 00:10:36.240 --> 00:10:39.940 our careers and many of them are still in some 00:10:39.940 --> 00:10:42.740 pretty tough places based on what happened 15 00:10:42.740 --> 00:10:45.820 years ago. I can't believe that it's been 15 00:10:45.820 --> 00:10:50.100 years. That's for darn sure. Alright, so you 00:10:50.100 --> 00:10:56.779 ended up going to Iraq in 2003. Did you go in 00:10:56.779 --> 00:10:59.299 right at the beginning of the invasion? Just 00:10:59.299 --> 00:11:02.279 after. I was in New York at our mission there 00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:05.960 when Secretary Colin Powell made the case for 00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:09.460 the invasion. And then there was about 50 State 00:11:09.460 --> 00:11:11.779 Department personnel who joined that first wave 00:11:11.779 --> 00:11:15.360 in. I got there. I went to a mini civilian boot 00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:17.500 camp at Fort Bliss, Texas, which ironically was 00:11:17.500 --> 00:11:20.320 where my uncle went before he shipped off to 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:23.679 Vietnam as a Green Beret. And I arrived in Baghdad 00:11:23.679 --> 00:11:28.440 in early August of 2003. And what were your responsibilities 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:32.179 there? I spent most of my time that first year 00:11:32.179 --> 00:11:36.220 on a responsibility that I thought I wasn't going 00:11:36.220 --> 00:11:39.480 to like nor be very good at. And that was dealing 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:42.320 with the truckers, the teamsters of Iraq. At 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:44.740 the time, the insurgency was starting to pick 00:11:44.740 --> 00:11:48.179 up and our government... And our policy under 00:11:48.179 --> 00:11:50.620 the coalition provisional authority was focused 00:11:50.620 --> 00:11:54.860 on making sure that the food staples made their 00:11:54.860 --> 00:11:57.399 journeys across the highways and byways of Iraq. 00:11:57.519 --> 00:12:00.740 So I got to know quite well a number of the main 00:12:00.740 --> 00:12:06.840 truckers in Baghdad. With with the truckers like 00:12:06.840 --> 00:12:09.700 a union, right? Correct logistics of the whole 00:12:09.700 --> 00:12:13.580 thing. Yeah, it was not a fancy Stuff I thought 00:12:13.580 --> 00:12:16.240 I might be doing and ended up really really loving 00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:19.159 the job and I'm grateful that that became my 00:12:19.159 --> 00:12:22.100 focus because I really got to understand I think 00:12:22.100 --> 00:12:26.159 the the street level experience of a rock through 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:29.860 the eyes of everyday Iraqis as opposed to the 00:12:29.860 --> 00:12:34.659 palace intrigue and the palace opulence and the 00:12:34.659 --> 00:12:37.000 fancy food that we had shipped in for us. So 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:41.059 I had my eyes open pretty quickly through the 00:12:41.059 --> 00:12:45.820 truckers. Well, one of the complaints at the 00:12:45.820 --> 00:12:47.879 time, and probably is still going on, is that 00:12:47.879 --> 00:12:51.500 when we went into Iraq, we pretty much eliminated 00:12:51.500 --> 00:12:54.980 everything and started to try and reinvent the 00:12:54.980 --> 00:12:58.409 country. And I think that one of the issues that 00:12:58.409 --> 00:13:00.330 I'm sure that you ran up again, as you mentioned, 00:13:00.450 --> 00:13:02.450 the idea of actually trying to provide food and 00:13:02.450 --> 00:13:04.909 clothing and everything for the Iraqi citizens 00:13:04.909 --> 00:13:06.830 who were kind of left out of the decision -making 00:13:06.830 --> 00:13:11.129 process. Yeah, they were even in that early phase 00:13:11.129 --> 00:13:16.190 of 2003 not focused on the next election that 00:13:16.190 --> 00:13:18.929 we were bringing to them courtesy of our military. 00:13:18.990 --> 00:13:22.350 They were focused on, first and foremost, stability 00:13:22.350 --> 00:13:26.230 and security. And then what we all focus on, 00:13:26.289 --> 00:13:28.289 which is making sure that you can get on with 00:13:28.289 --> 00:13:30.669 your life and have enough food to feed your family. 00:13:30.970 --> 00:13:35.289 And then we overlaid that with a lot of democratic 00:13:35.289 --> 00:13:38.529 talk. And I think some good historians have looked 00:13:38.529 --> 00:13:41.330 back and come to the conclusion I had pretty 00:13:41.330 --> 00:13:43.409 early, which is first things first. They may 00:13:43.409 --> 00:13:46.509 want to import some things, but we were trying 00:13:46.509 --> 00:13:48.690 to export democracy very quickly and according 00:13:48.690 --> 00:13:52.070 to our timeline. So after you were working how 00:13:52.070 --> 00:13:53.730 long did you work with the truckers you say over 00:13:53.730 --> 00:13:56.250 a year? Yeah from summer of oh three to summer 00:13:56.250 --> 00:13:58.470 of oh four and then I was asked to go out to 00:13:58.470 --> 00:14:02.789 Fallujah Well, aren't you lucky? We've had many 00:14:02.789 --> 00:14:05.029 many guests here on veterans radio were involved 00:14:05.029 --> 00:14:08.509 in the battle battles and battles of Fallujah 00:14:08.509 --> 00:14:12.129 more than once it seemed So what was your job 00:14:12.129 --> 00:14:16.320 out with the Marines? I was one of about five 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:19.700 State Department officers, Ambassador Negropani, 00:14:19.820 --> 00:14:22.980 who had been my boss and a very good understanding 00:14:22.980 --> 00:14:26.659 boss in New York, asked me to be the main political 00:14:26.659 --> 00:14:28.940 guy working with the Marine Command. At that 00:14:28.940 --> 00:14:33.240 time in Western Iraq, we had about 38 ,000 troops 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:37.539 under General Conway's command as the one MEF 00:14:37.539 --> 00:14:40.840 commanding general. My job was to try and make 00:14:40.840 --> 00:14:44.470 sure that military tactics followed. the political 00:14:44.470 --> 00:14:47.429 plan that we were implementing. And a lot of 00:14:47.429 --> 00:14:50.950 that had to do with first clearing the city of 00:14:50.950 --> 00:14:54.110 Fallujah of terrorists and a lot of homeboys, 00:14:54.590 --> 00:14:57.370 trying to find Zarqawi, who was the main al -Qaeda 00:14:57.370 --> 00:15:01.049 leader at the time, so that Sunnis in the West 00:15:01.049 --> 00:15:03.389 could vote. Because, of course, at that time, 00:15:03.509 --> 00:15:05.269 the Bush administration and President George 00:15:05.269 --> 00:15:08.919 W. Bush really wanted to try and... show that 00:15:08.919 --> 00:15:11.139 these elections were going to stick and that 00:15:11.139 --> 00:15:13.139 all parts of Iraq were going to vote. So that 00:15:13.139 --> 00:15:16.220 became my prime directive, which was to get Sunnis 00:15:16.220 --> 00:15:19.580 to vote. And how did you go about doing that? 00:15:21.320 --> 00:15:25.679 It was tough. I can imagine, you know, the Sunni 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:28.580 areas in the West were the most anti -American 00:15:28.580 --> 00:15:30.620 in the whole country for the reason obviously 00:15:30.620 --> 00:15:33.919 that we had kicked out them as a minority from 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:36.919 power. So I knew that they were not going to 00:15:36.919 --> 00:15:41.529 be happy partners. But starting from the bottom 00:15:41.529 --> 00:15:44.230 up, I focused a lot on who were the key leaders 00:15:44.230 --> 00:15:46.929 inherent in the area, and those would be the 00:15:46.929 --> 00:15:50.490 religious leaders, the imams, phaluges, the city 00:15:50.490 --> 00:15:54.529 of mosques. So I knew that that was a key population 00:15:54.529 --> 00:15:57.570 I needed to focus on, the tribal leaders, and 00:15:57.570 --> 00:16:00.149 then we were starting to set up local city councils. 00:16:00.250 --> 00:16:02.570 So all together, I was spending quite a bit of 00:16:02.570 --> 00:16:05.389 time with a lot of very able Marines and some 00:16:05.389 --> 00:16:08.309 soldiers, a lot of civil affairs officers trying 00:16:08.309 --> 00:16:11.750 to show that once the big battle was over, the 00:16:11.750 --> 00:16:14.830 rebuilding could happen with a lot of money, 00:16:14.950 --> 00:16:17.909 but also we needed to begin to trust each other. 00:16:18.690 --> 00:16:20.549 Were you one of the ones that was going around 00:16:20.549 --> 00:16:24.190 handing out the money for these various projects? 00:16:25.090 --> 00:16:27.190 I was. It was not State Department money. It 00:16:27.190 --> 00:16:30.909 was CERT money, which was a pot of money that 00:16:30.909 --> 00:16:34.320 the military initially took from frozen assets 00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:36.659 of Saddam Hussein, which was authorized by the 00:16:36.659 --> 00:16:39.200 UN Security Council. And then that became programmed 00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:41.980 money through our own Congress. But yes, you 00:16:41.980 --> 00:16:44.720 know, the famous line that money is a weapon 00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:48.320 system. That's true. But money is also a trap 00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:50.779 in a war zone. And I saw both sides of that. 00:16:51.019 --> 00:16:53.480 So the Marine sergeants and corporals would come 00:16:53.480 --> 00:16:57.000 with their backpacks full of a lot of US cash 00:16:57.000 --> 00:16:59.759 and I would help make sure that if we had injured 00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:02.720 a child in an escalation of force incident or 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:06.380 we had damaged a vehicle or a part of a house 00:17:06.380 --> 00:17:10.059 that we were at least trying to pay up, although 00:17:10.059 --> 00:17:13.720 of course money never solves death, but it at 00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:16.740 least can help alleviate some of the tension. 00:17:17.380 --> 00:17:20.400 Wow. So as that election was coming forward, 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:26.279 what year was that in? 2004? Yeah, the big battle 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:29.440 in order to set the election, to set the stage 00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:31.660 for the election was toward the end of 2004, 00:17:31.960 --> 00:17:33.400 starting in November, and it carried through 00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:36.920 the winter. But the three big, intense democratic 00:17:36.920 --> 00:17:41.380 experiences that we were pushing on Iraqis at 00:17:41.380 --> 00:17:44.319 the time were in 2005. There were subsequent 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:46.440 elections that happened after, but the three 00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:50.809 big ones were all in 2005. there was a parliamentary 00:17:50.809 --> 00:17:53.210 election, there was a constitutional referendum, 00:17:53.710 --> 00:17:55.089 and then there was a third one at the end of 00:17:55.089 --> 00:17:57.769 the year. So we were demanding a lot of a people, 00:17:57.769 --> 00:18:01.589 I think, in terms of their willingness to go 00:18:01.589 --> 00:18:04.750 vote when, again, most of the Iraqis and the 00:18:04.750 --> 00:18:07.190 Fallugians were telling me that they were more 00:18:07.190 --> 00:18:11.470 concerned about just baseline security. We've 00:18:11.470 --> 00:18:13.890 had an author on, his name is Bing West, you 00:18:13.890 --> 00:18:17.630 may be familiar with him. Bing is a grunt at 00:18:17.630 --> 00:18:22.019 heart. He was last in Hellman with us. Charging 00:18:22.019 --> 00:18:23.819 through the desert with corporals and I have 00:18:23.819 --> 00:18:27.400 a lot of respect for being He charges to the 00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:29.799 front Well, yeah, he does and he's you know, 00:18:29.819 --> 00:18:32.440 he's he's always got an opinion which is what 00:18:32.440 --> 00:18:35.759 I know which which is which is refreshing that 00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:40.319 or doesn't and he Advocates them very very effective. 00:18:40.420 --> 00:18:42.799 Yeah. Well, the reason I brought him up is was 00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:45.779 his book is called the strongest tribe right 00:18:45.779 --> 00:18:48.539 and and the idea of all that these people wanted 00:18:48.539 --> 00:18:51.950 was just safety and so they're regencies would 00:18:51.950 --> 00:18:55.289 be flowing, I guess you could say, back and forth 00:18:55.289 --> 00:18:57.569 depending on who could help them out the most. 00:18:58.950 --> 00:19:00.910 Yeah, Bing and I have talked a lot about this 00:19:00.910 --> 00:19:03.849 in both Anbar and Helmand, and I think we come 00:19:03.849 --> 00:19:06.769 down on the same side of this, which is it's 00:19:06.769 --> 00:19:09.769 one thing to sort of try and idealize a democratic 00:19:09.769 --> 00:19:12.390 Iraq or a democratic Afghanistan. It's another 00:19:12.390 --> 00:19:15.329 thing when you've got roadside bombs proliferating, 00:19:15.450 --> 00:19:18.009 you've got high mars being used by the Marine 00:19:18.009 --> 00:19:20.900 Corps, you've got you know, assassinations of 00:19:20.900 --> 00:19:23.119 your local partners, which is really a level 00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:26.420 that I try and get to in my book because the 00:19:26.420 --> 00:19:29.039 heroes of my book, first and foremost, I want 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:31.200 to advance are the Iraqis and the Afghans who 00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:33.680 stood with us and paid a huge price for that. 00:19:34.099 --> 00:19:36.700 So the strongest tribe is the Marine Corps, is 00:19:36.700 --> 00:19:40.039 the U .S. military, but the most long -lasting 00:19:40.039 --> 00:19:42.819 tribe will never be an American tribe, and I 00:19:42.819 --> 00:19:44.960 think those were the issues we were trying to 00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:48.759 figure out as we stayed year after year. You 00:19:48.759 --> 00:19:52.339 mentioned in the book, we're talking with Kale 00:19:52.339 --> 00:19:54.500 Weston, the author of The Mirror Test of America 00:19:54.500 --> 00:20:00.359 or in Iraq and Afghanistan. And this story of 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:03.960 Fallujah and being in Iraq and so forth, there's 00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:06.859 a scene in the book about the potato factory, 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:11.099 which was very distressing to me and probably 00:20:11.099 --> 00:20:12.859 to a lot of people and I'm sure it was to you. 00:20:12.900 --> 00:20:14.539 Could you tell our audience what that was about? 00:20:15.109 --> 00:20:17.630 I will, and I hope that readers don't stop reading 00:20:17.630 --> 00:20:20.049 the book. No, don't, don't, don't. This is very, 00:20:20.309 --> 00:20:23.450 this is precepts a lot of things. It was hard 00:20:23.450 --> 00:20:25.809 for me to write. My editor, to his credit, and 00:20:25.809 --> 00:20:29.250 my team in New York, incredible team, they pushed 00:20:29.250 --> 00:20:32.190 me on that chapter. And, you know, when authors 00:20:32.190 --> 00:20:34.109 talk about writing a book, that probably is the 00:20:34.109 --> 00:20:36.089 chapter I would have left out if not for Knopf 00:20:36.089 --> 00:20:38.210 and Random House saying, this is a site of war 00:20:38.210 --> 00:20:41.509 that people really need to see and read and smell. 00:20:42.029 --> 00:20:45.869 And so that was a morgue that the Marines were 00:20:45.869 --> 00:20:48.609 forced to set up very quickly in that early phase 00:20:48.609 --> 00:20:51.809 of al -Fajr, the big Fallujah battle that commenced 00:20:51.809 --> 00:20:53.809 right around the Marine Corps birthday, actually, 00:20:53.869 --> 00:20:57.309 November 7th, a few days before. What happened 00:20:57.309 --> 00:20:59.549 is the political pressure went through the roof 00:20:59.549 --> 00:21:02.670 at the White House level. Then -National Security 00:21:02.670 --> 00:21:05.049 Advisor Condi Rice was on the phone with Marine 00:21:05.049 --> 00:21:08.250 leaders, and my boss, the ambassador, was... 00:21:08.269 --> 00:21:10.950 engaging me as well as getting phone calls from 00:21:10.950 --> 00:21:13.529 the Iraqi leaders because when the Marines were 00:21:13.529 --> 00:21:16.990 clearing the city in the largest operation since 00:21:16.990 --> 00:21:20.650 Vietnam, very quickly we had an issue of how 00:21:20.650 --> 00:21:24.329 to take care of the bodies that were, you know, 00:21:24.450 --> 00:21:28.069 we wanted to help bury in line with Islamic custom. 00:21:28.349 --> 00:21:30.950 And that, of course, is a very quick timeline. 00:21:31.559 --> 00:21:34.680 And so the potato factory was literally a reefer 00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:38.240 to store potatoes to keep them cool before they 00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:40.160 were turned into potato chips, of all things. 00:21:40.259 --> 00:21:42.920 And then that became the location where a bunch 00:21:42.920 --> 00:21:46.519 of very brave and, yes, heroic Marines were tasked 00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:50.619 day in and day out to pick up bodies and make 00:21:50.619 --> 00:21:53.519 sure that we, at least to the extent we could, 00:21:53.779 --> 00:21:56.039 figure out what kind of, you know, were they 00:21:56.039 --> 00:21:58.619 Syrian fighters or were they a grandfather who 00:21:58.619 --> 00:22:00.910 was in the wrong place at the wrong time. And 00:22:00.910 --> 00:22:04.150 so the goal of that chapter is to just show the 00:22:04.150 --> 00:22:07.970 ugliest face of war, but to also show our military 00:22:07.970 --> 00:22:11.930 trying to do its best in basically impossible 00:22:11.930 --> 00:22:14.809 situations. And then I end the chapter by pointing 00:22:14.809 --> 00:22:18.390 out a character who was very crucial in making 00:22:18.390 --> 00:22:21.390 a bad situation a little bit better, and that's 00:22:21.390 --> 00:22:23.849 the Grand Mufti, the main religious leader in 00:22:23.849 --> 00:22:27.150 the city. And he proved to be incredibly important 00:22:27.150 --> 00:22:30.890 when Fallujans came back. wanting to try and 00:22:30.890 --> 00:22:35.329 find the bodies of their dead brother, uncle, 00:22:36.549 --> 00:22:41.250 mother. And so he became the voice saying, let's 00:22:41.250 --> 00:22:44.309 not literally dig up the places where the Marines 00:22:44.309 --> 00:22:46.369 had to bury these bodies. And that allowed us 00:22:46.369 --> 00:22:51.910 to move to a different chapter. Right. And then 00:22:51.910 --> 00:22:57.730 we get to the point of, was this the, I forget 00:22:57.730 --> 00:23:01.279 his name now. I can't find it. Sheikh Hamza? 00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:06.839 Yes. Is that him? As far as the, yeah, there's 00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:10.339 a chapter that I focus on him and Sarah Aljamele, 00:23:10.839 --> 00:23:13.859 a female who was detained twice in about two 00:23:13.859 --> 00:23:17.339 or three weeks by a Delta Force team. And I wanted 00:23:17.339 --> 00:23:20.819 to put that in to show that while our Delta and 00:23:20.819 --> 00:23:23.039 special operations forces have a hugely important 00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:26.039 role, that sometimes well -meaning objectives 00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:28.980 can really undercut the strategic partnering 00:23:28.980 --> 00:23:31.700 that we had on, and the net effect there is that 00:23:31.700 --> 00:23:35.559 when we took a female twice in a few weeks, Sheikh 00:23:35.559 --> 00:23:39.400 Hamza was put even under more pressure by Zarqawi 00:23:39.400 --> 00:23:43.019 and al -Qaeda directly. And I'll never forget, 00:23:43.059 --> 00:23:44.700 he said, you know, you Americans are putting 00:23:44.700 --> 00:23:47.559 me personally at risk by taking this female. 00:23:48.140 --> 00:23:51.039 The argument on the special operations side was 00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:54.460 that she may have intel and ties to Zarqawi, 00:23:54.500 --> 00:23:56.460 so I understood how important that would be, 00:23:56.460 --> 00:23:59.660 if true. But what I kept on not getting out of 00:23:59.660 --> 00:24:03.039 the embassy and out of JSOC and literally McChrystal 00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:06.940 and Tampa eventually was a solid answer. So all 00:24:06.940 --> 00:24:09.380 I know is we lost the most important Iraqi in 00:24:09.380 --> 00:24:11.539 one of the most important cities in Iraq because 00:24:11.539 --> 00:24:13.559 we took a female twice in three weeks. And so 00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:17.099 I hope that chapter and those lessons are really 00:24:17.099 --> 00:24:20.380 internalized. Not to point fingers, but to say 00:24:20.380 --> 00:24:23.740 we all did the best we could, but let's not forget. 00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:27.640 stories like those and all of us who are in these 00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:31.299 wars have them. Right, and you were talking about 00:24:31.299 --> 00:24:35.880 Sheikh Hamza as being so integral in working 00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:38.119 in the Fallujah area, not only, as you mentioned, 00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:40.779 with the story of the woman, but with the burials 00:24:40.779 --> 00:24:42.839 and everything else, and unfortunately, he was 00:24:42.839 --> 00:24:46.099 eventually assassinated. Yeah, he was, and when 00:24:46.099 --> 00:24:48.039 the ambassador asked me who killed Sheikh Hamza, 00:24:48.099 --> 00:24:50.660 I said we did. I mean, it was not an American 00:24:50.660 --> 00:24:54.779 bullet, but because of we're our own worst enemy 00:24:54.779 --> 00:24:56.980 often because we're so big and we have so much 00:24:56.980 --> 00:24:59.319 massive military might that we're not always 00:24:59.319 --> 00:25:02.319 I think communicating quickly nor honestly and 00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:05.819 I think that was a case study in Iraq and I have 00:25:05.819 --> 00:25:08.759 another one in Afghanistan but when we lost the 00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:11.759 Pope in Rome and Hamza was like the Pope in Rome 00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:13.940 but for you know the city of Mosques the main 00:25:13.940 --> 00:25:17.019 religious leader in Fallujah I'm blonde about 00:25:17.019 --> 00:25:19.359 it more Americans died and lost their limbs and 00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:23.259 so did more civilians so It's not to say we could 00:25:23.259 --> 00:25:26.740 have had a crystal ball to walk us out of the 00:25:26.740 --> 00:25:30.720 city in a safe and orderly way, but we sure as 00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:32.680 hell ought to remember these lessons and also 00:25:32.680 --> 00:25:35.700 remember the people. Because when I went back 00:25:35.700 --> 00:25:38.319 to Fallujah a few years later, I asked one of 00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:41.839 my closest Fallujah contacts, who's the new Grand 00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:45.019 Mufti? And they said, there will never be another 00:25:45.019 --> 00:25:50.279 Sheikh Hamza. We're coming up on a break right 00:25:50.279 --> 00:25:53.039 now, Kale. And so when we come back, I want to 00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:55.480 talk about that helicopter mission that really 00:25:55.480 --> 00:25:58.900 changed your life so dramatically. We are talking 00:25:58.900 --> 00:26:01.299 with Kale Weston here on Veterans Radio. His 00:26:01.299 --> 00:26:04.440 book is The Mirror Test, America at War in Iraq 00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:08.750 and Afghanistan. You can give us a call if you'd 00:26:08.750 --> 00:26:10.170 like to ask them a question. You're not going 00:26:10.170 --> 00:26:12.450 to have this opportunity too often. The number 00:26:12.450 --> 00:26:17.730 here is 734 -822 -1600. We're on WAM Talk Radio 00:26:17.730 --> 00:26:20.470 1600. You're listening to Veterans Radio, and 00:26:20.470 --> 00:26:49.539 we'll be back after the news. And we are back 00:26:49.539 --> 00:26:51.559 on Veterans Radio and if you're just joining 00:26:51.559 --> 00:26:54.259 us our guest today is J. Kale Weston and his 00:26:54.259 --> 00:26:57.240 book is The Mirror Test America at War in Iraq 00:26:57.240 --> 00:26:59.220 and Afghanistan and I just want to read a little 00:26:59.220 --> 00:27:04.180 paragraph that I found on Newsweek .com about 00:27:04.180 --> 00:27:07.180 Kale and it says that Weston stands alone in 00:27:07.180 --> 00:27:10.359 the annals of modern American diplomacy He spent 00:27:10.359 --> 00:27:13.279 more time in Iraq and Afghanistan seven consecutive 00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:15.839 years than any other State Department officer 00:27:16.299 --> 00:27:19.119 What he did there couldn't have been more different 00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:21.740 from traditional cocktail party diplomacy. He 00:27:21.740 --> 00:27:23.960 was a political advisor to combat units on the 00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:26.339 battlefield where he forged uncommonly honest 00:27:26.339 --> 00:27:28.740 and effective relationships with top commanders, 00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:31.319 giving him unrivaled influence in shaping war 00:27:31.319 --> 00:27:34.299 policy on two fronts. His bravery and persistence 00:27:34.299 --> 00:27:37.220 awed his fellow diplomats and prompted several 00:27:37.220 --> 00:27:40.220 generals who reserved praise for only the most 00:27:40.220 --> 00:27:43.569 deserving to consider him an American hero. I 00:27:43.569 --> 00:27:45.289 think that's a pretty good description of our 00:27:45.289 --> 00:27:48.990 guest today. So, Kale, just before we went to 00:27:48.990 --> 00:27:53.809 the break, I'm assuming that one of the worst 00:27:53.809 --> 00:27:58.509 days of your life was when 30 marines and a Navy 00:27:58.509 --> 00:28:01.589 corpsman died in a helicopter crash in Anbar 00:28:01.589 --> 00:28:05.289 province in Iraq, and you hold yourself responsible. 00:28:05.390 --> 00:28:09.130 Could you tell us how that occurred? Yeah, again, 00:28:09.289 --> 00:28:13.480 it was a part of the book that wanted in because 00:28:13.480 --> 00:28:17.720 it shows the human cost of policy and having 00:28:17.720 --> 00:28:20.480 been at the UN Security Council level and the 00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:23.059 higher level State Department kind of debating 00:28:23.059 --> 00:28:27.140 rooms. This is an example of where policy is 00:28:27.140 --> 00:28:29.180 decided and implemented on the ground. It goes 00:28:29.180 --> 00:28:31.700 back to your kind of question about the elections. 00:28:31.720 --> 00:28:36.619 We had to come up with a plan in early 2005 how 00:28:36.619 --> 00:28:39.319 to support the Iraqi political process and of 00:28:39.319 --> 00:28:42.829 course we had 38 ,000 Marines and soldiers and 00:28:42.829 --> 00:28:45.789 U .S. service members in a very large swath of 00:28:45.789 --> 00:28:50.390 the country in the West. The debate inside the 00:28:50.390 --> 00:28:52.630 Marine High Command and with me as the embassy 00:28:52.630 --> 00:28:58.309 guy was, do we go local and narrow in that mission 00:28:58.309 --> 00:29:02.230 in terms of the helicopters, the Humvees, the 00:29:02.230 --> 00:29:04.549 seven -ton trucks, everything that gets mobilized 00:29:04.549 --> 00:29:08.450 to move ballots and to move Iraqi election personnel, 00:29:08.809 --> 00:29:12.359 or do we say to the sunnis out west, whether 00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:14.579 you're from a small town or a big city like Fallujah 00:29:14.579 --> 00:29:17.339 or Ramadi, you will have and your people will 00:29:17.339 --> 00:29:19.279 have, if you're a leader, the opportunity to 00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:22.180 vote. I knew what the ambassador wanted me to 00:29:22.180 --> 00:29:24.880 do. I knew what the Bush administration, for 00:29:24.880 --> 00:29:27.200 that matter, wanted me to do, which was to advocate 00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:30.799 that we need to give as many sunnis the chance 00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:33.750 to vote. that the dilemma was that they were 00:29:33.750 --> 00:29:35.930 telling me on a regular basis the leadership 00:29:35.930 --> 00:29:38.049 in in on board particularly for a little bit 00:29:38.049 --> 00:29:40.009 they were going to boycott the election because 00:29:40.009 --> 00:29:43.109 they were pissed they didn't want to be doing 00:29:43.109 --> 00:29:45.970 democracy according to our watch i went into 00:29:45.970 --> 00:29:49.190 a room with uh... the the math the marine expeditionary 00:29:49.190 --> 00:29:52.369 force uh... leadership and uh... team from ramadi 00:29:52.369 --> 00:29:55.410 had been sent to polluted to advance their argument 00:29:55.410 --> 00:29:58.230 which is we should just focus on for general 00:29:58.230 --> 00:30:01.339 my i ended up saying well If we do, we're going 00:30:01.339 --> 00:30:03.220 to gerrymander, and if we do, we're going to 00:30:03.220 --> 00:30:05.960 have senior Sunni politicians get on the phone 00:30:05.960 --> 00:30:07.680 with the ambassador the next day and say, my 00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:09.980 people didn't have a chance to vote. What came 00:30:09.980 --> 00:30:13.740 out of that was a decision in effect by me, because 00:30:13.740 --> 00:30:16.799 General Halyk at the time said, it's political, 00:30:16.819 --> 00:30:19.859 it's your call, was to send Marines far and wide. 00:30:20.299 --> 00:30:24.640 And the tragedy was when one of our CH -53s carrying 00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:27.960 volunteers for this mission to support the elections 00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:31.180 crashed. And it's the largest casualty incident 00:30:31.180 --> 00:30:33.859 from both wars to this day. And I, of course, 00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:37.299 wish I could go back and have said something 00:30:37.299 --> 00:30:39.380 different in that room. But I wrote about it 00:30:39.380 --> 00:30:43.059 not to sort of put on paper my own personal drama, 00:30:43.059 --> 00:30:46.720 but to show accountability and consequence. And 00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:49.660 I don't think there's been enough of that. especially 00:30:49.660 --> 00:30:53.299 in the Iraq war but also in Afghanistan and maybe 00:30:53.299 --> 00:30:56.359 in my own way I can say listen this is what happens 00:30:56.359 --> 00:30:59.140 when you go to war people are going to die and 00:30:59.140 --> 00:31:02.079 we should think hard about what the situations 00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:04.680 were that led us to the point where we are in 00:31:04.680 --> 00:31:07.640 a war and maybe the war was an unnecessary war 00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:10.680 and I believe the Iraq war was in that category. 00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:16.099 I have a tendency to agree with you on that. 00:31:16.819 --> 00:31:20.400 How long were you in Iraq? I was in Iraq for 00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:23.599 almost four years. I ended up being asked back 00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:27.119 at the tail end of the Bush administration. My 00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:29.460 great mentor and boss ambassador, Robert Ford, 00:31:30.059 --> 00:31:31.920 had been asked by Condoleezza Rice, Secretary 00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:34.599 Rice, to go back to Baghdad while I was in Afghanistan. 00:31:34.900 --> 00:31:39.160 And so he asked me to return to Iraq. I was enjoying 00:31:39.160 --> 00:31:42.289 my job in the Eastern. mountainous region of 00:31:42.289 --> 00:31:44.710 afghanistan which reminded me a lot of utah and 00:31:44.710 --> 00:31:47.109 colorado and just landscape i love but i ended 00:31:47.109 --> 00:31:49.369 up going back but most of my time in iraq was 00:31:49.369 --> 00:31:53.190 spent on bar so that that incident you know in 00:31:53.190 --> 00:31:56.569 the book and and i'm getting reactions from readers 00:31:56.569 --> 00:31:58.769 across the country and it is it's interesting 00:31:58.769 --> 00:32:01.970 that the policy people you know that the literati 00:32:01.970 --> 00:32:05.549 people in new york in that eastern corridor I 00:32:05.549 --> 00:32:07.750 should have just kept it on the wars, but the 00:32:07.750 --> 00:32:10.210 readers in the rest of America say thank you 00:32:10.210 --> 00:32:12.990 for bringing us into these hometowns where some 00:32:12.990 --> 00:32:15.750 of these service members come from, and not only 00:32:15.750 --> 00:32:18.309 where they come from, but where they're buried. 00:32:18.970 --> 00:32:22.109 A lot of focus every May on Memorial Day is on 00:32:22.109 --> 00:32:24.910 Arlington, and that's an incredibly powerful 00:32:24.910 --> 00:32:28.599 place, but most of our veterans. And families, 00:32:28.599 --> 00:32:31.420 you know, don't live in the D .C. metro area. 00:32:31.740 --> 00:32:34.240 And when they're buried, they're more often buried 00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:38.099 in their hometowns. And so most of the 31 angels, 00:32:38.099 --> 00:32:41.440 as I call them, the KIA on that helicopter, are 00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:43.519 not buried at Arlington. And in the course of 00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:46.460 the book, I go to a few and say, you know, let's 00:32:46.460 --> 00:32:51.009 get to know these parts of America as well. I 00:32:51.009 --> 00:32:52.970 think it's always important, and you mentioned 00:32:52.970 --> 00:32:55.049 this in the book, where we were talking with 00:32:55.049 --> 00:32:56.829 Kayla Weston, the author of The Mirror Test, 00:32:57.349 --> 00:32:59.549 about America at war in Iraq and Afghanistan. 00:32:59.829 --> 00:33:04.470 And after you got home, there are so many things 00:33:04.470 --> 00:33:06.450 in this book that we could talk about for hours, 00:33:06.450 --> 00:33:10.269 I think, when you talk about the politics of 00:33:10.269 --> 00:33:16.289 both wars. You supported President Obama, but 00:33:16.289 --> 00:33:18.690 then when he did the surge, you didn't necessarily 00:33:18.690 --> 00:33:22.380 support that. because it was just, you know, 00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:25.839 we're stuck there still. Yeah, I wanted this 00:33:25.839 --> 00:33:28.759 to be anything but a drive -by book. The more 00:33:28.759 --> 00:33:30.660 entertaining book I could have, you know, written 00:33:30.660 --> 00:33:34.759 pages and pages about examples that may have 00:33:34.759 --> 00:33:38.420 gotten a laugh or, you know, a cutting comment, 00:33:38.500 --> 00:33:40.740 but I really wanted this book to be even -handed. 00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:44.059 I wanted to be, by the end of it, an honest guide 00:33:44.059 --> 00:33:47.380 that a reader could say, he had his views, you 00:33:47.380 --> 00:33:50.240 know, he's a person like all of us. I vote every 00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:52.539 four years for commander in chief, but when I 00:33:52.539 --> 00:33:56.140 saw administrations making good or bad decisions, 00:33:56.140 --> 00:34:00.619 I wanted them to be captured in a genuine way. 00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:04.680 And so when President Obama escalated while we 00:34:04.680 --> 00:34:07.059 were there, I mean, those were our Marines. It's 00:34:07.059 --> 00:34:10.539 not like I was writing from a university or I 00:34:10.539 --> 00:34:12.519 was writing from another part of Afghanistan. 00:34:12.760 --> 00:34:16.059 I mean, Cal Worth battalion. landed in southern 00:34:16.059 --> 00:34:18.659 afghanistan and helman when president obama decided 00:34:18.659 --> 00:34:21.519 to search because of quote will the search worked 00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:24.800 in in iraq well i had lived both searches and 00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:28.619 so as i wrote this book i wanted to kind of unwrap 00:34:28.619 --> 00:34:31.119 some of the the layers that maybe you're misunderstood 00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:34.800 or the mythology that's tied to the ground up 00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:38.239 level of these wars and then i had insights like 00:34:38.239 --> 00:34:40.300 you say, to some of the higher level decision 00:34:40.300 --> 00:34:42.300 making. And it was a tricky book to write. And 00:34:42.300 --> 00:34:44.260 I think that's also probably why it ended up 00:34:44.260 --> 00:34:48.179 being a very long book is that there was a lot 00:34:48.179 --> 00:34:52.300 to a lot of ground to cover. Well, it's a good 00:34:52.300 --> 00:34:54.840 read, but it's not it's not a hard read. I mean, 00:34:54.860 --> 00:34:58.079 it's a hard emotional to read, but it's not a 00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:00.039 hard read because it just everything and it seems 00:35:00.039 --> 00:35:02.699 to make sense because you know, most of us don't 00:35:02.699 --> 00:35:06.559 know who really makes these decisions. especially 00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:08.300 in the military, you know, the guy that's, you 00:35:08.300 --> 00:35:10.760 know, the private on the ground or the E4 or 00:35:10.760 --> 00:35:13.340 Spec 4, whatever it is, you know, he's told to 00:35:13.340 --> 00:35:16.280 just go take that mountain. And, you know, oh, 00:35:16.340 --> 00:35:20.119 okay, why? You know, because, you know, we never 00:35:20.119 --> 00:35:23.139 ask the why part of it. And I think what's interesting 00:35:23.139 --> 00:35:25.500 in reading your book is that we can see the process, 00:35:25.820 --> 00:35:27.480 you know, some of the process that you have to 00:35:27.480 --> 00:35:30.280 go through before that decision is made to take 00:35:30.280 --> 00:35:33.230 that mountain. Right, and I've heard from some 00:35:33.230 --> 00:35:35.730 corporals who are now a bit grayer and 10 or 00:35:35.730 --> 00:35:38.570 12 years older and maybe 40 pounds heavier, and 00:35:38.570 --> 00:35:40.829 they email me from across the country and say, 00:35:40.989 --> 00:35:43.909 thank you for showing us what was going on inside 00:35:43.909 --> 00:35:47.010 Camp Fallujah at the time that Fallujah was being 00:35:47.010 --> 00:35:50.170 cleared, or thank you for at least trying to 00:35:50.170 --> 00:35:52.909 inform sort of what the Hellman strategy was 00:35:52.909 --> 00:35:56.150 when Marja became the main focus with an anti 00:35:56.150 --> 00:36:01.170 -poppy plan. You know the book does a lot and 00:36:01.170 --> 00:36:03.710 it's moving at a pretty quick pace, but I decided 00:36:03.710 --> 00:36:06.889 the value I had was the length of time I'd been 00:36:06.889 --> 00:36:08.869 in these wars and that I had been in some pretty 00:36:08.869 --> 00:36:12.150 rough spots where all of these counterinsurgency 00:36:12.150 --> 00:36:15.630 challenges sort of were being tested and whether 00:36:15.630 --> 00:36:18.679 we succeeded or failed. you know it it it it 00:36:18.679 --> 00:36:21.440 is a pretty wide lens of these wars and i find 00:36:21.440 --> 00:36:24.320 the veterans get that that you know to look at 00:36:24.320 --> 00:36:26.440 the politics of an election and then to look 00:36:26.440 --> 00:36:28.579 at the tactics of coordination to coordination 00:36:28.579 --> 00:36:32.920 with the british and helmand uh... is probably 00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:35.000 one of the advantages my book hopefully gives 00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:37.539 the reader by the end of it that you get a pretty 00:36:37.539 --> 00:36:41.880 wide sense of these wars it's not a one man one 00:36:41.880 --> 00:36:46.320 city uh... exploration it's seven years in two 00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:51.900 wars And then, when you decided to get out of 00:36:51.900 --> 00:36:57.639 the State Department, why did you do that? That's 00:36:57.639 --> 00:37:00.840 a very good question. I missed that role. I tell 00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:04.840 students, and I've been invited to colleges and 00:37:04.840 --> 00:37:07.840 universities. I was in Oregon fairly recently, 00:37:07.900 --> 00:37:10.519 and I said, there's no greater honor or challenge 00:37:10.519 --> 00:37:14.340 than representing the United States, dot, dot, 00:37:14.380 --> 00:37:17.599 dot. particularly in a time of war. And so I 00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:20.460 encourage the next generation, whether they want 00:37:20.460 --> 00:37:23.039 to join the military, my dad and uncle's Royal 00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:26.320 Army, a lot of my buddies are Marines, or the 00:37:26.320 --> 00:37:28.860 State Department, the Foreign Service, USAID, 00:37:29.559 --> 00:37:34.300 that there is an incredibly rewarding aspect 00:37:34.300 --> 00:37:36.780 of waking up every day representing what I still 00:37:36.780 --> 00:37:38.900 consider to be the greatest country in the world. 00:37:39.940 --> 00:37:43.239 There's a weird sub -debate going on about that. 00:37:43.820 --> 00:37:46.320 But I end my book by describing the US as a great 00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:48.719 nation. It was before, you know, President Trump 00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:50.780 made that sort of a line of his own. I had written 00:37:50.780 --> 00:37:55.079 this book years before, really. So I left because 00:37:55.079 --> 00:37:58.880 I was burned out. I left because I was disaffected 00:37:58.880 --> 00:38:03.159 with just the human cost of war. Because in addition 00:38:03.159 --> 00:38:06.420 to our troops, you know, I still get the emails 00:38:06.420 --> 00:38:09.280 and the phone calls from Iraqis and Afghans who 00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:12.820 are living the wars even in a more intense way 00:38:12.820 --> 00:38:16.880 because Their home front remains a war front 00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:20.300 right and while we could redeploy They never 00:38:20.300 --> 00:38:23.320 can so I needed a break from that and then finally 00:38:23.320 --> 00:38:26.800 I wanted to write a book I couldn't have written 00:38:26.800 --> 00:38:30.480 the type of book by doing a State Department 00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:34.079 job, and I think my conscience Wouldn't allow 00:38:34.079 --> 00:38:37.300 me to try and try and do it that way well since 00:38:37.300 --> 00:38:39.630 that time period though you You have attempted 00:38:39.630 --> 00:38:42.769 to visit many of the gravestones and many of 00:38:42.769 --> 00:38:45.250 the families of those marines who were killed 00:38:45.250 --> 00:38:47.210 in that helicopter crash. Is that correct? I 00:38:47.210 --> 00:38:50.150 have. And I find I can't do more than one or 00:38:50.150 --> 00:38:54.130 two a year. So yeah, I'd like to do homework 00:38:54.130 --> 00:38:58.369 about who these Americans were, who served our 00:38:58.369 --> 00:39:02.639 nation, where they went to high school. kind 00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:04.800 of what their own unique story was and and the 00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:06.699 reason why and i'm grateful for cannot from my 00:39:06.699 --> 00:39:09.219 publisher who allowed me the extra pages as i 00:39:09.219 --> 00:39:11.500 want to show that when that little scroll on 00:39:11.500 --> 00:39:14.800 the bottom of the tv says you know another soldier 00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:19.320 or marina airman or maybe uh... korman was killed 00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:23.000 it's usually you know name age and maybe hometown 00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:27.199 but at least in three cases texas uh... and and 00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:31.239 and wyoming in iowa I try and resurrect, maybe 00:39:31.239 --> 00:39:33.119 that's an overstated word, but I try and bring 00:39:33.119 --> 00:39:35.920 them a bit back to life by describing who they 00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:38.119 were, because that's really the story of warfare, 00:39:38.119 --> 00:39:41.380 I think, over time, is that it's not about kings 00:39:41.380 --> 00:39:45.059 and generals and presidents and prime ministers. 00:39:45.079 --> 00:39:48.519 It's truly about the people who live the wars 00:39:48.519 --> 00:39:50.639 on a day -to -day basis and don't get a vote 00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:53.900 in how they start or how they end. Could you 00:39:53.900 --> 00:39:55.760 tell us a little bit about a couple of those 00:39:55.760 --> 00:39:58.329 grave sites that you visited? Yeah, I'll focus 00:39:58.329 --> 00:40:03.050 on maybe the one in Iowa because it was very 00:40:03.050 --> 00:40:07.550 powerful. I went at a time when it was springtime 00:40:07.550 --> 00:40:13.730 and very beautiful, very much on Iraq. And as 00:40:13.730 --> 00:40:18.010 I drove into Cherokee, Iowa, I just was taking 00:40:18.010 --> 00:40:21.769 in what this town was like. And by the time I 00:40:21.769 --> 00:40:24.730 had done my jog around the town and went to the 00:40:24.730 --> 00:40:28.699 local high school, I realized, wait a minute, 00:40:28.719 --> 00:40:31.880 he's buried a little bit outside of town. And 00:40:31.880 --> 00:40:35.320 when I got there, the most powerful part is that 00:40:35.320 --> 00:40:39.079 I hadn't realized that this Marine had been killed 00:40:39.079 --> 00:40:43.659 literally the day before his birthday. And that 00:40:43.659 --> 00:40:47.380 was pretty hard to take. And then you look at 00:40:47.380 --> 00:40:49.900 the gravesite and you think, oh my gosh, his 00:40:49.900 --> 00:40:54.780 father is buried literally right next to him. 00:40:55.640 --> 00:40:58.699 Nathan Schubert is his name and that kind of 00:40:58.699 --> 00:41:02.300 again I wanted to add some pages in my book to 00:41:02.300 --> 00:41:07.059 say here's one kid from the cornfields of Iowa. 00:41:07.179 --> 00:41:10.659 He died in a helicopter crash in a very remote 00:41:10.659 --> 00:41:14.679 part of Ombar. I also start the book in Wyoming. 00:41:15.019 --> 00:41:18.320 I'm from the West and I have a lot of pride in 00:41:18.320 --> 00:41:21.280 that and I wanted to kind of talk about a former 00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:24.349 drill instructor who was also on a helicopter. 00:41:24.849 --> 00:41:27.750 And at the very end of the book, gratefully to 00:41:27.750 --> 00:41:30.530 my editor's credit, he let me just put the words 00:41:30.530 --> 00:41:33.429 of the family and friends about each of these 00:41:33.429 --> 00:41:37.889 KIA, and I think that's probably the most powerful 00:41:37.889 --> 00:41:40.909 writing in the whole book, and it's not my own. 00:41:41.369 --> 00:41:48.969 I think it is extremely powerful. I'm a big fan, 00:41:49.150 --> 00:41:51.630 supporter, I guess you can say, of memorials. 00:41:51.760 --> 00:41:54.780 And one of the reasons is, and I can't remember 00:41:54.780 --> 00:41:56.360 if I read it in your book or one of the articles 00:41:56.360 --> 00:41:58.880 while researching for you to be on the program 00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:02.960 today, where somebody said, you know, the memorials 00:42:02.960 --> 00:42:06.159 just allow people to remember, you know, who 00:42:06.159 --> 00:42:09.539 died in many cases. And if there wasn't a memorial, 00:42:10.039 --> 00:42:12.199 then that person would be forgotten forever. 00:42:12.900 --> 00:42:16.460 Yeah, and the most powerful memorial, you know, 00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:20.320 is the home. The hometown of a city where the 00:42:20.320 --> 00:42:22.300 Chairman of the Joint Chiefs is from South Boston, 00:42:22.539 --> 00:42:24.119 General Dunford, and he features in the book 00:42:24.119 --> 00:42:26.980 because he was a one -star when this election 00:42:26.980 --> 00:42:29.480 support decision was being made. He says, if 00:42:29.480 --> 00:42:32.139 you forget my death, then I will have died in 00:42:32.139 --> 00:42:35.800 vain. I still believe that's the cleanest, most 00:42:35.800 --> 00:42:40.000 powerful set of words about whether people were 00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:42.420 for the Iraq war, against the Iraq war, believe 00:42:42.420 --> 00:42:44.579 we should be in Afghanistan or get the hell out 00:42:44.579 --> 00:42:47.829 of Afghanistan. that these memorials are a chance 00:42:47.829 --> 00:42:50.070 to remember, and to the credit of the current 00:42:50.070 --> 00:42:51.469 commandant of the Marine Corps General Neller, 00:42:51.570 --> 00:42:54.730 he's pretty much set up a website, and he's in 00:42:54.730 --> 00:42:58.150 effect ordered Marines to get together. And I 00:42:58.150 --> 00:43:01.130 think that when we gathered in Leadville, Colorado 00:43:01.130 --> 00:43:04.289 one summer, we all, the Marines especially, wanted 00:43:04.289 --> 00:43:07.230 two or three days, but that was enough to sort 00:43:07.230 --> 00:43:11.010 of, what you're doing with your own radio program, 00:43:11.409 --> 00:43:14.269 tell the stories, retell the stories. and make 00:43:14.269 --> 00:43:17.570 sure that there's those connections that veterans 00:43:17.570 --> 00:43:19.869 need when they're out of uniform, and like you 00:43:19.869 --> 00:43:23.469 say, until they're at the local VA hospital in 00:43:23.469 --> 00:43:27.320 Ann Arbor. or in Denver or wherever they may 00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:30.219 be. I think one of the things that veterans like 00:43:30.219 --> 00:43:33.159 to do is when they do tell their stories to each 00:43:33.159 --> 00:43:35.219 other is that they just want to validate that 00:43:35.219 --> 00:43:37.940 it's true. Because sometimes, you know, when 00:43:37.940 --> 00:43:40.239 you're 60, 70 years old and you're talking about 00:43:40.239 --> 00:43:44.400 something happened when you're 18 or 19, you're 00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:48.130 hoping you're not getting all foggy. And when 00:43:48.130 --> 00:43:50.190 you're with your buddies and they say, hey, you 00:43:50.190 --> 00:43:52.170 remember when you did, you know, you took that 00:43:52.170 --> 00:43:54.809 hill almost by yourself. Well, I know that, you 00:43:54.809 --> 00:43:58.269 know, I'm only seven years out of some of these 00:43:58.269 --> 00:44:00.989 experiences and I still have to triple and double 00:44:00.989 --> 00:44:03.409 check, you know, what I wrote in my little notebook 00:44:03.409 --> 00:44:06.690 or what was told to a friend at the same time 00:44:06.690 --> 00:44:09.199 while we were over there. But I think that's 00:44:09.199 --> 00:44:11.159 what, you know, the reunions do and I think that 00:44:11.159 --> 00:44:13.219 the writing that's coming out of these wars is 00:44:13.219 --> 00:44:16.659 exciting because I think it takes some time to 00:44:16.659 --> 00:44:18.960 filter some of the experiences and whether people 00:44:18.960 --> 00:44:22.519 write great novels or poetry or just pull out 00:44:22.519 --> 00:44:24.880 their journal and take some excerpts from there. 00:44:25.179 --> 00:44:27.519 I'm a believer that, you know, in the good old 00:44:27.519 --> 00:44:31.539 Ken Burns fashion, I love documentaries and there's 00:44:31.539 --> 00:44:33.739 a big new one coming out on Vietnam, I understand. 00:44:33.980 --> 00:44:36.960 Right. I was always blown away back in high school 00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:40.059 when he did the Civil War series, and so the 00:44:40.059 --> 00:44:41.780 Soldier's War Journal at the end of my book, 00:44:41.780 --> 00:44:44.619 I would also point readers to, which, again, 00:44:44.659 --> 00:44:46.719 to the credit of my publisher, they gave me more 00:44:46.719 --> 00:44:48.460 pages and never said, well, that's going to cost 00:44:48.460 --> 00:44:51.199 us 30 more cents per book. And what I love about 00:44:51.199 --> 00:44:54.739 that is that there's a soldier named Balen Orr 00:44:54.739 --> 00:44:57.960 who went to Sadr City, and he sent me kind of 00:44:57.960 --> 00:45:00.440 unexpectedly just excerpts from his journal, 00:45:00.440 --> 00:45:02.719 and it reminds me that, again, some of the most 00:45:02.719 --> 00:45:05.699 powerful writing to come out of any war. It's 00:45:05.699 --> 00:45:08.860 just the soldier or the Marine getting in a scrap 00:45:08.860 --> 00:45:11.579 of paper every night and saying, you know, here's 00:45:11.579 --> 00:45:13.679 what happened. Well, now they're on computers, 00:45:13.699 --> 00:45:16.559 so it's maybe easier to get. And I hope that 00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:19.840 one day, you know, the great documentary will 00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:23.559 be done of, you know, Iraq and Afghanistan, and 00:45:23.559 --> 00:45:26.539 you can have the the voice of the corporal next 00:45:26.539 --> 00:45:28.719 to the voice of a General Nicholson or a General 00:45:28.719 --> 00:45:31.719 Dunford. I think it's always so important. I 00:45:31.719 --> 00:45:33.639 agree. I love those documentaries too, especially 00:45:33.639 --> 00:45:37.579 when we hear the voices or the stories of the 00:45:37.579 --> 00:45:40.099 people that are on the lower levels who have 00:45:40.099 --> 00:45:45.519 to execute the orders and so forth. If your listeners 00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:49.159 have never watched the British British television's 00:45:49.159 --> 00:45:52.519 The World at War from 1973. It's by far, I mean 00:45:52.519 --> 00:45:54.900 it's the iconic series and there's one titled 00:45:54.900 --> 00:45:58.179 Occupation, which is a Dutch experience and from 00:45:58.179 --> 00:46:00.019 the civilian point of view and it is the most 00:46:00.019 --> 00:46:02.940 powerful documentary making I have ever, I've 00:46:02.940 --> 00:46:05.659 ever. And so I actually reference that in my 00:46:05.659 --> 00:46:07.579 book, hoping that it's just three readers that 00:46:07.579 --> 00:46:10.199 could go online and watch it. It does. It does. 00:46:10.340 --> 00:46:12.960 I have watched many of those documentaries myself. 00:46:14.119 --> 00:46:18.400 We've got about five minutes to go, Cale. So 00:46:18.400 --> 00:46:20.599 you're not done yet. You've gotten yourself involved 00:46:20.599 --> 00:46:22.599 in another little project here that I want to 00:46:22.599 --> 00:46:27.619 kind of transition to about war dogs. Can you 00:46:27.619 --> 00:46:29.179 tell me a little bit about how you got involved 00:46:29.179 --> 00:46:33.360 with that? Yeah, General Nicholson and I were 00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:37.300 invited to a Semper Fi Fond fundraiser in Alexandria, 00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:40.340 Virginia, and a Marine walked up to me afterward. 00:46:40.420 --> 00:46:42.380 Of course, he was intimidated to go to the General 00:46:42.380 --> 00:46:45.900 directly right away and said, you know, I have 00:46:45.900 --> 00:46:49.599 a military working dog that I'm trying to get 00:46:49.599 --> 00:46:52.559 reunited with. It's been, I think at that point, 00:46:52.760 --> 00:46:56.199 two years or so. And his dog was named Freeze. 00:46:56.380 --> 00:46:59.159 And so I said, hey, I'm happy to help try and 00:46:59.159 --> 00:47:01.880 track down where your black lab freeze is, because 00:47:01.880 --> 00:47:03.719 I got to know some of these dogs when I was over 00:47:03.719 --> 00:47:06.940 in Hellman, too. And I like dogs. I had some 00:47:06.940 --> 00:47:10.840 dogs while I was growing up. So that case was 00:47:10.840 --> 00:47:13.539 relatively easy. General Nicholson and I and 00:47:13.539 --> 00:47:15.960 a lot of well -meaning other people managed to 00:47:15.960 --> 00:47:17.940 track Freeze down, and we were able to reunite 00:47:17.940 --> 00:47:21.119 him pretty quickly. The more challenging dog 00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:25.500 reunion happened when I received an email from 00:47:25.500 --> 00:47:28.840 a mother about her marine son, Matt, and his 00:47:28.840 --> 00:47:31.699 dog, Rocky. And there's a chapter in my book 00:47:31.699 --> 00:47:34.800 about that because amid some of the harder chapters, 00:47:35.000 --> 00:47:38.579 this, I think, was a story of a bond that anyone 00:47:38.579 --> 00:47:41.099 who's had a pet, particularly a dog, can relate 00:47:41.099 --> 00:47:43.559 to, and especially in a place where these dogs 00:47:43.559 --> 00:47:47.360 are trained to sniff out IEDs. And so Matt and 00:47:47.360 --> 00:47:51.139 Rocky were eventually reunited, but only after 00:47:51.139 --> 00:47:54.159 we were able to track him down as one of the 00:47:54.159 --> 00:47:56.980 bird dogs for the president's helicopter fleet, 00:47:57.239 --> 00:48:02.460 Marine One. So that took a bit more fancy footwork 00:48:02.460 --> 00:48:04.920 and keyboard work on my part, but to the credit 00:48:04.920 --> 00:48:06.980 of the Marine Corps, the colonel in charge of 00:48:06.980 --> 00:48:09.900 Marine One, and with some generals obviously 00:48:09.900 --> 00:48:13.420 in oversight and overwatch position, realized 00:48:13.420 --> 00:48:15.619 that this dog really should be back with the 00:48:15.619 --> 00:48:18.679 Marine who had fought alongside him in Hellman 00:48:18.679 --> 00:48:21.460 versus you know, being a pointer dog toward, 00:48:21.460 --> 00:48:23.380 I don't know, what kind of birds fly around the 00:48:23.380 --> 00:48:27.059 swamps of Virginia. So we got them reunited. 00:48:27.079 --> 00:48:29.840 And it's, I think, something that's still going 00:48:29.840 --> 00:48:33.519 on with many Marines and their dogs. And you're 00:48:33.519 --> 00:48:35.940 starting to get some good books written about 00:48:35.940 --> 00:48:40.159 the dogs in these wars. Yeah. There's a Michigan 00:48:40.159 --> 00:48:43.480 war dog memorial here just north of Ann Arbor. 00:48:43.960 --> 00:48:46.460 And one of the reasons, it kind of fell into 00:48:46.460 --> 00:48:50.469 disrepair. somebody found it, you know, overgrown 00:48:50.469 --> 00:48:52.849 in the woods and so forth. And one of the reasons 00:48:52.849 --> 00:48:55.210 that they cleaned it all up and everything was 00:48:55.210 --> 00:48:57.570 that there was an Iraq veteran, I think it was, 00:48:58.289 --> 00:49:01.730 who was finally able to get his dog, and I think 00:49:01.730 --> 00:49:04.630 he was in the army, and he was finally able to 00:49:04.630 --> 00:49:07.530 get his dog, and unfortunately the dog died of 00:49:07.530 --> 00:49:10.250 cancer, and they wouldn't let the dog be buried 00:49:10.250 --> 00:49:14.530 in a national cemetery at the time. And so... 00:49:14.670 --> 00:49:17.250 these people at the Michigan War Dog Memorial 00:49:17.250 --> 00:49:23.690 buried the dog with full military honors and 00:49:23.690 --> 00:49:26.650 just got everybody all excited and I think that 00:49:26.650 --> 00:49:28.730 what has happened is that the military has been 00:49:28.730 --> 00:49:32.010 much more cooperative with getting these war 00:49:32.010 --> 00:49:36.849 dogs reunited with their owners. Yeah, that's 00:49:36.849 --> 00:49:39.590 a huge part of the after war that we shouldn't 00:49:39.590 --> 00:49:42.389 forget and I'm glad to hear that because it's 00:49:42.389 --> 00:49:45.219 also a way to bring I think the general population 00:49:45.219 --> 00:49:48.179 closer to these wars because people can relate 00:49:48.179 --> 00:49:50.739 to dogs in a way that maybe when they look at 00:49:50.739 --> 00:49:53.559 the globe can't. That's true. The dog stories 00:49:53.559 --> 00:49:57.360 are our most popular programs. Well, I have a 00:49:57.360 --> 00:50:01.860 good dog chapter titled Semper Fido and the Sierras. 00:50:02.300 --> 00:50:05.579 So Semper Fido was one of the more fun chapters 00:50:05.579 --> 00:50:07.800 to write. We'll have to do that. You're also 00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:09.739 involved with it. Is it the spirit of America? 00:50:10.190 --> 00:50:14.469 Yeah, thank you for asking. It's a great private 00:50:14.469 --> 00:50:18.130 nonprofit group. We're based in L .A. now. A 00:50:18.130 --> 00:50:20.449 lot of them are back and working out of D .C. 00:50:20.449 --> 00:50:23.969 A lot of veterans who lived these wars up close 00:50:23.969 --> 00:50:26.809 wanted to stay involved. And so Spirit of America 00:50:26.809 --> 00:50:29.389 was founded by a gentleman named Jim Hake, who's 00:50:29.389 --> 00:50:31.929 an incredible entrepreneur who had done early 00:50:31.929 --> 00:50:35.449 work in the Bay Area on the technology side and 00:50:35.449 --> 00:50:39.010 then decided on 9 -11, hey, I need to do something. 00:50:40.059 --> 00:50:43.539 that story spirit america because it shows what 00:50:43.539 --> 00:50:45.760 the private non -governmental innovative side 00:50:45.760 --> 00:50:49.340 of america can do and then americans who hear 00:50:49.340 --> 00:50:52.659 about it and decide hey i wanna i wanna help 00:50:52.659 --> 00:50:55.179 and they work very closely with our military 00:50:55.179 --> 00:50:57.860 and they are able i think too i like to use the 00:50:57.860 --> 00:51:01.079 word inoculate trying inoculate areas so that 00:51:01.079 --> 00:51:03.440 they don't become the terrorists safe havens 00:51:03.440 --> 00:51:06.550 or they don't become the places where seal and 00:51:06.550 --> 00:51:08.909 Delta Force teams need to go in, or drones need 00:51:08.909 --> 00:51:11.429 to fly above, or hell, State Department officials 00:51:11.429 --> 00:51:14.489 go in and work the local politics. So it's a 00:51:14.489 --> 00:51:17.289 chapter that I think also shows that after 9 00:51:17.289 --> 00:51:20.550 -11, some citizens did some good and innovative 00:51:20.550 --> 00:51:22.570 things. And I wanted the reader to maybe think, 00:51:22.750 --> 00:51:25.090 well, hey, I don't need to have my son or daughter 00:51:25.090 --> 00:51:28.260 join the Marine Corps to help. Maybe I can go 00:51:28.260 --> 00:51:31.780 online and check out Spirit of America. We are 00:51:31.780 --> 00:51:33.940 going to get more people to do that. Maybe I 00:51:33.940 --> 00:51:36.340 can utilize you to put me in touch with some 00:51:36.340 --> 00:51:37.880 of the people there and get them on. I'd love 00:51:37.880 --> 00:51:41.340 to have you invite Spirit of America, Jim Hake, 00:51:41.400 --> 00:51:43.420 and his team on. They would be a great, great 00:51:43.420 --> 00:51:45.949 guest. Okay. Well, we've come up to the end of 00:51:45.949 --> 00:51:48.389 another hour, and Kale, I want to thank you so 00:51:48.389 --> 00:51:50.690 very much for being on Veterans Radio. This book 00:51:50.690 --> 00:51:52.670 is something that all of you need to read out 00:51:52.670 --> 00:51:54.190 there. I think it's so important. It's called 00:51:54.190 --> 00:51:56.570 The Mirror Test. And The Mirror Test, in this 00:51:56.570 --> 00:51:58.210 case, is that we have to look at how we're getting 00:51:58.210 --> 00:52:01.469 involved in these wars around the world. And 00:52:01.469 --> 00:52:03.309 so thank you so much for being on the program. 00:52:03.389 --> 00:52:05.409 I look forward to talking to you again. Thank 00:52:05.409 --> 00:52:08.050 you, Dale and Nina. I appreciate the opportunity. 00:52:08.389 --> 00:52:11.429 OK. All right, so another one's in the can, as 00:52:11.429 --> 00:52:13.230 they say. And I thank you all for listening to 00:52:13.230 --> 00:52:15.230 Veterans Radio. We will be back next week. We're 00:52:15.230 --> 00:52:17.710 going to be looking at World War II with the 00:52:17.710 --> 00:52:21.389 Bataan Death March. Until then, you are dismissed.