All across America and around the world, this
is Veterans Radio. This is Veterans Radio. And
now, your host for today's program, Bob Gould.
And here we are for another, pardon me, another
edition. of veterans radio live, coming to you
from WAAM Talk 1600. That's right, AAM. People
go, hey man, what are you on the AAM for? Well,
that is the medium that is bringing so much of
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You can also listen to it. If you have a little
problem, sometimes they say, I only got it in
my car, man. Well, then you can go to our internet
set and click on listen to, right? You can get
that and hear that nice and clear. We've got
a great program today. We're going to be talking
about World War two. Oh, man. There's World War
two that well, you know, it's the 70th anniversary
70 70 years since the end of World War two I
have to to They've been guests before on veterans
radio two authors who are Going to give us all
that background that we're gonna these guys and
these guys are terrific. I've seen them on the
military channel I've seen them on the history
channel I've seen them And and heard them there.
Oh boy. I just can't this one of my favorite
favorite subjects is World War two I can't wait
to get into it. I want to say also to my partners
Dale and Jim who are Other assignments elsewhere
in this and this in this universe, so they'll
be back next week. It's just me me and My board
up, I'm going to call him Redline. Redline Redzone.
Derek, how you doing? I'm doing great, Bob. Okay.
Redline, folks. Redline. All right. We got a
couple of little things to do here. Reese Across
America, a lot of folks wanted to know how can
we get in touch with Reese. Then that's something
when you're listening to Veterans Radio, you
always want to have a writing stick. and a piece
of paper, because we give a lot of information
out. And what's really cool about Rees Across
America, if you have an area, a cemetery, that
you want to have Rees placed on, how do you do
all this? Well, here's how you do it. You go
to reesacrossamerica .org. Rees Across America.
Dot org go there and all the information is available.
They'll help you get something started. It's
really cool way cool and Great organization.
I think they've been around about eight or nine
years. What else do we have here? Oh, yes legacy
PTSD legacy There's going to be an agent orange
town hall meeting every week. We're talking about
this because it's very important on Saturday,
May 9th Northville High School, and it's going
to be A number of speakers and folks that are
going to be talking about PTSD and I don't want
to get into a whole lot of this. Some of the
speakers is U .S. Congressman Dave Trott, Pat
Colbeck. He's a Michigan State Senator and from
the Vietnam Veterans of America. Agent Orange
right there, but anyway as they're going to be
talking about it's only about four hours It's
really cool, and there's gonna be refreshments
and all that But they're gonna be talking about
the legacy not just about Agent Orange with the
legacy of Agent Orange Generations to come generations
now and generations to come so you're and we're
gonna be covering that that's right at Veterans
radio net that's right veterans radio network
So we're gonna be covering that from gavel to
gavel And the future of our offspring depend
on it. Absolutely. Legacy. What else do we have
here? We have another one. A book coming out.
And tomorrow, the 20th, over at the Plymouth
Library. Make sure I get Plymouth District Library.
Hey, man, what is he telling us about? Well,
you know, if you're listening to Wham! Talk 1600
and you can hear this on the AM. That means you're
close to Plymouth Plymouth Michigan. That's right.
So tomorrow at 1 30 April 20th, they're going
to be talking about a book here and I want to
get it right Snow Bloods Journal an American
novel about men and dogs in Vietnam And you know
a number of the dogs never came back. I know
they have There were 3 ,747 dogs used in Vietnam.
Only 204 exited the country. So we had somebody
on that not too long ago. And there were reasons
for that. Obviously, some were killed in combat
situations, but they also become very attached
to their owners. And anyway, so that's going
to be tomorrow to Plymouth Library, District
Library at 1 .30. Once again, Snowblood's Journal,
an American novel about men and dogs in Vietnam.
And I'm reading some of the reviews. Early reviews
call this book, quote, a wild ride on foot and
by chopper through a war. Tense, tight, lyrical,
wonderfully told. Meet the author in person tomorrow
at the Plymouth. district library at 130 okay
time to get with our authors right after this
very important message red line take it yeah
yeah yeah yeah there'll be a hot time in the
town of berlin when the yanks go marching in
and we certainly did but but uh many years many
years ago 70 years were coming up to the anniversary
of the end of the war in europe was in May of
1945. By the way, that was by Bing Crosby and
the Andrews sisters. They were very, very, both
of those as well as other entertainers, were
very instrumental. Oh, sorry for the pause. Excuse
me on that one, folks. They were very, very,
very much all the entertainers apart. movie stars
Clark Gable and went into I think he was a I
think he was in the Air Force of the Army Air
Corps and And and and they all they entertained
the troops. So thanks to Bing Crosby Andrews
sisters. Okay. Now let's take on World War two
One of our guest authors today is professor John
C. McManus He's a professor of military history
at Missouri University of Science and Technology
Professor McManus has written numerous books
on World War II, and he's also served as a member
of the editorial board of World War II magazine.
Professor McManus, welcome to Veterans Radio.
Hi, Bob. How are you today? Oh, we're doing great.
Thank goodness for the sunshine. Oh, Lord. And
you're in where? Washington? I'm in St. Louis,
where it's currently raining, unfortunately.
Oh, okay. Well... Better weather's coming. Anyway,
my second guest, and by the way, Professor McManus
has been on our program many times in the past,
and we're gonna just have a great time today
talking all about all these little facts of World
War II. Our second guest today is Kevin Hemel.
Kevin Hemel is a historian for the U .S. Army
Combat Studies Institute. He writes military
history narratives on the war in Afghanistan.
He's also the author of Patton's photographs
and Patton, legendary World War II commander.
He's also appeared on the History Channel, on
Military Channel, Fox News Channel, Book TV,
speaking about Patton and including World War
II and World War II history, Army and Military
heritage. He's presently working on a book focusing
exclusively on General Patton's experiences.
During World War two entitled Patton's war. Oh,
I got a lot of stuff. I asked thought they asked
Kevin today He holds a master's degree in American
history from Villanova University Welcome to
veterans radio Kevin. Hey great to be here Bob.
How you doing? I'm doing great and we're ready
to get this thing started. Okay Wow, what you
know, I was just talking to my my board up Where
do you start on World War two? Where do you start?
So I'm gonna I'm going to go back to 1914 and
start right there because that's when I think
all of this, all of this, all the characters
and it was all being shaped. In 1914 when Germany
invaded France and we had this terrible World
War I and all the casualties and there was one
casualty, a corporal who was an artist. painter,
an artist, and he was gassed and he came out
of it a disillusioned and very, very, very, very
angry person. There also was someone, oh by the
way that was Adolf, and then there was also an
air ace and he went on to start the SS under
Adolf Hitler and he started the SS and many other
things and he was also in charge of the Nazi
Air Force, Herman Gehring, and they all came
out. They all came out of World War I, and right
after the war, being so disillusioned, Hitler,
Hitler was angry, he was mad, and he was trying
to get the people fired up, this is wrong, communism's
wrong, it's all wrong, and we're not, but there
was prosperity. Right after World War I, there
was huge prosperity. Yes, because we were loaning
them a ton of money, ton of money. We really
built Germany with our money. And this could
have been something, and I'm going to want Professor
McManus to comment on that, that this could be,
this could be where Hitler started to look at
all the Jewish bankers and the big international
bankers because what changed, and by the way,
Hitler tried all sorts of to get people rallied,
he had his Nazi party, National Socialist Party,
and they won like a half a percent of the vote,
and they were going nowhere, nobody was listening
to him. Then, then came the American Depression,
1929, and the bankers, here's our bankers again,
called in all their notes, and Germany collapsed.
Perfect. Now, for Hitler, who did a little...
just did a little time in prison wrote his book
mine cough now he can be at the top tell us about
that professor mcmanus well there's actually
a couple of economic collapses in germany after
world war one the the initial years after the
war were very very uh... chaotic and desperate
in germany because you know really really germany
loses world war one part because it collapses
internally politically government falls from
power people are hungry People are desperate.
Of course, they've suffered terrible casualties.
The infrastructure has been taxed to its limits
and the currency as well. And so, really for
about the first three to four years, if not even
five years after the war, these are hungry, desperate
economic times, which partially leads to paramilitary
groups fighting in the streets and whatnot. And
also, and maybe this is the most famous aspect
of it, the complete collapse of the German currency,
which leads to, as you mentioned, uh... american
bankers all the dogs putting together an effort
to kind of stabilize the germany economy and
then this creates better economic times for about
the next three to four years and that's not very
fertile ground for the nazis or the communist
take power but of course once the great depression
happened uh... in nineteen twenty nine and thereafter
the second economic collapse which is much worse
in the first Obviously it does create the kind
of conditions that make it possible for either
the Nazis or the communists to take power because
really you had these two extremist parties trying
to come to power and really fighting in the streets
by the early 1930s and the Nazis prevail. And
a loaf of bread was 30 ,000 marks. And more.
And more. People were wheel -bearing their paychecks
home. That's unbelievable. They were using bricks
of marks. uh... to to keep themselves in the
winter and it was it was a little course a terrible
situation that had to be stabilized but it was
a little all you know if you could mention dating
back to nineteen fourteen of course all of the
product of world war one the world war two obviously
the ultimate sequel of world war one it's not
going to happen at night for the event one of
certainly hitler the nazis are going on never
going to rise to power if you don't have World
War One and all the crises that it unravels or
it puts an emotion and also it collapses the
old order, the old aristocratic order in Europe
and that creates new conditions that the Nazis
can prevail. Now, Kevin, during this, where was
Patton all this time? Patton is back in the United
States. originally training with tanks but the
united states army just does not have the money
for a tank corps so they dissolve it as he goes
back to the calvary and the uh... the head of
the calvary the general in charge of the calvary
hated the idea of tanks so much that you weren't
even allowed to use the word tanks you had to
say armored cars so patent uh... wanting to get
promoted and wanting to stay loyal to his uh...
superiors stop talking about take stop theorizing
about them and enjoyed himself in the horse cavalry.
He was stationed twice in Hawaii, but spent most
of his time in either Fort Riley in Kansas or
at Fort Meyer in Washington, D .C. I was at Fort
Riley. Okay. Yes, I was. They have a nice museum
there to the cavalry. Yes, they do. Absolutely
do. Now, where was Eisenhower, Professor McManus?
Eisenhower was going through much the same kind
of career path, except he was an infantry officer.
And he was, of course, friends with patent and
they had a lot of arguments over you know what
would be the doctrine of the future what would
be the primary weapons of the future and how
to advance it but uh... they were both relentless
professionals in the sense that you know that
in order to stay in the army in that period of
the twenties and thirties when motions for you
and far between you really did have to be a dedicated
officer so i've been our will kind of rotate
among a number of rather anonymous assignments
i think the most interesting of which happens
immediately after world war one uh... when he's
part of the uh... a group that studying road
and road building in america and they don't they
went on a coast -to -coast trip i think it was
either the summer nineteen nineteen or nineteen
it's just a kind of past how long it would take
to go coast -to -coast in this country uh...
and i think it took them the better part of three
four five weeks of the road map was bad of course
this made a deep impression on eisenhower and
that in tandem with the German road system under
the Nazis in the 1930s and 40s and what he saw
with that in World War II is one of the major
reasons why he's going to spearhead the Interstate
Highway Act in the 1950s when he's president.
Now, I had heard that one of the reasons that
he did the Interstate Highway Act was also to
have a way to move troops from one area to another.
Is that true? Well, there's no question. Right.
And of course, you know, all this is happening
in the context of the Cold War and then some
would argue perhaps the height of the Cold War.
uh... you know in the mid the latter nineteen
fifties tensions were high i don't understand
that you have to have a good infrastructure that
wrote that the troops vehicles and missiles and
tanks and whatever else of course there you'll
often hear you know with enough within within
a frequency to to believe that there's some truth
to it that you know you have a lot of straightaways
any typical interstate highway stretch of road
one of the reasons for that is so that uh...
aircraft could land on especially rotary -winged
aircraft which are in play by that point i had
heard that and that's true is that right so i
understand that there is truth to that and it
certainly makes sense i mean but i don't know
that they're you they're able to put the builders
are able to always do that with with a kind of
uh... you know regimented circumstance every
road different but wherever they could they are
putting straight away but not just for that but
because it's easier to drive to a paper well
just don't do that and i said that the private
five o 'clock no okay so Adolf Hitler gets elected
he after serving some time he was sprung I think
he got five years ten years on but he was sprung
after only a few months because why professor
well I will one thing I'll point out is he's
never really quite elected into power they had
a multi -party coalition parliamentary system
in Germany called the Weimar Republic And the
Nazis had gotten a plurality of the vote by the
early 1930s, and this would be, you know, maybe
in the realm of about 30 percent. And so he's
chosen by the present government, Paul von Hindenburg's
government, to head up a kind of coalition government
in the number one position as chancellor. So
it's a bit different than our system where we
directly elect a president. He emerges as...
this kind of uh... multi -party leader and then
of course quickly take steps to amass all power
at hand thirty -three onward but uh... why is
he sprung from prison so early well he had been
uh... you've been convicted of treason or attempting
to overthrow the government what's called a beer
hall putsch in november nineteen twenty -three
and how this would fail to been put down by the
bavarian authorities uh... in munich nonetheless
uh... many in in the bavarian government uh...
had a great deal of sympathy with hitler's nationalistic
ideas certainly the anti -semitism in the idea
that the treaty of bursar that it you know ended
hostilities in world war one have been grossly
unfair to germany so uh... he's allowed to use
the trial of what we would think it was almost
a political infomercial now and when he goes
to prison he gets a very nice you know executive
prison kind of set up in landsberg right his
famous memoirs my comp and then his sentence
is eventually commuted because he has so many
uh... friends in high places in the department
of justice well he he'd he gets elected and the
uh... uh... hindenburg uh... he dies all of a
sudden hitler becomes the the they had because
of the party his party was in power now he's
the guy in charge and he really doesn't you know
there were little things going on when i'm going
to get into it at this point for for when i get
to the meat of world war two but he then he then
starts to do his well you know i wonder his world
plan and he starts with annexing those who date
in the land and what else did he do professor
well the first the first major thing he does
in the he directly goes against the treaty of
versailles which is said that uh... germany needed
to have a small army no real air force or navy
to speak of uh... it was not to have its own
military forces on what called the ryan land
which is basically the area uh... from which
he would invade france so you can understand
why that would be the treaty so he's already
decided he's going to go against that and begin
rearming germany to kind of try and alleviate
the treaty of versailles and so first major thing
that he does is to remilitarize the ryan land
of march nineteen thirty six which is of course
a major issue for france because they're the
ones most likely to be affected by it and also
belgium no one wants war at that point frances
in the throes of the depression it has internal
political disputes it has a popular front socialist
government which does not want to rearm and go
to war and so hitler kind of gets away with this
when he was weaker probably militarily than france
and britain and this raises his political standing
in germany at every turn so eventually of course
this leads to the annexation of austria nineteen
thirty eight as you mentioned uh... the sedate
land in czechoslovakia thirty eight so now he's
popular and the German people are now the roads
are being built and he made the trains run on
time and unemployment he he did all these public
works programs and started building all his monuments
and all that other business that he was so and
he was putting people back to work there was
no I mean the unemployment was built and if things
are coming up and there and and then all of a
sudden all of a sudden he decides to go after
Poland. Kevin, tell us about that. Why did he
invade Poland? Why did Adolf Hitler invade Poland?
I think simply he wanted what he called Liebensraum,
his elbow room, and he was aiming for places
that were weak and he had already gone into Czechoslovakia
and Austria, which had been the Austro -Hungarian
Empire. And he figured, you know, with invading
Poland, he could obtain more land. I don't think
he thought he was strong enough yet to invade
France. And, of course, he makes the famous pact
with Stalin, agreeing to divide Poland between
the two of them if he goes in. And that just
kind of gives him a free hand to do as he wants.
And this kind of turned to be the sort of test
case for Blitzkrieg warfare. And I think no one
really, Adolf Hitler included, appreciate what
it takes could do on the battlefield and the
fact that they just brought so much mobility
to warfare and ended major campaign so quickly
where everyone was so used to trench warfare
and protracted warfare uh... poland kind of let
that left everyone uh... you know most days in
confused how quickly uh... german forces were
able to overrun their territory it was for the
russian one and then capture surround warsaw
uh... it was just this sort of iron -fisted blast
that nobody was expecting and i think it made
the western allies almost quake in their boots
what germany was able to do so quickly you know
in the east that he would soon be turning his
armies west and doing the same so what is that
and say i told you so no but he was definitely
making notes uh... because like i had mentioned
he had sort of turned away from armored warfare
and went back into the cavalry And when he saw
what tanks were doing in Europe, he started sitting
up and taking notice, which is something he was
going to do for the rest of the war. Anytime
he saw a new German tank on the battlefield,
he would take pictures, analyze them, realize
what improvements had been made, and would send
them back to Aberdeen, where scientists were
constantly upgrading tanks. But it really was
the war games that George C. Marshall begins
in the United States. uh... where patent was
actually a referee and he saw what an armored
unit could do that he then extricated himself
from cavalry uh... was made a group uh... brigade
commander in an armored division and you know
kind of took all that accumulated knowledge he
had from world war one and started applying it
to the sort of uh... awakening american army
prior to pearl harbor Well, and I heard we're
setting the stage folks here It's all the players
are coming in the line and we've got about what
30 seconds big cap All right, Derek. It says
we got 30 seconds So we'll be right back right
after the news and a couple of other important
messages and with Kevin hemo and professor John
McManus World War two it got now we're gonna
get to the meat of everything. That's what's
really cool Yeah, I'm gonna get the channel.
We're gonna talk some more about this leave us
around Okay, you'll be in the know if you stay
right here on top 1600 w a a m don't go away
ah Yeah, raman coca -cola the Andrews sisters
once again a little something from World War
two now Getting back to my guest Kevin hemo and
professor John McManus now we can get into the
whole meat of everything Okay, Warsaw Poland
has been conquered and Adolf is at the top of
his game. He promised that he would not be in
war. I don't know how he got away with the Poland
thing, but he promised that there would be no
more. The people loved him. Everything was really
cool for Adolf. The economy was working. He had
the beginning of Liebensraum. And then, what
happens? This is my list of events in World War
II, I think, in my opinion. When he turns around,
1941, June, he invades Russia. Yes, all Russia,
big Russia. I mean, this guy had to be insane.
Look at the board. Oh, good. Tell me about, tell
us all about that, Professor McManus. well the
soviet union in nazi germany were implacable
enemies in spite of the the nazi soviet pack
which was just a on a kind of arrangement of
convenience at the moment uh... nineteen thirty
nine when they when they find that pack it gives
hitler the opportunity to fight in world war
two on one front at least temporarily because
he knew invading poland would probably be britain
and france to declare war on them and certainly
it did so ever want to shore up uh... you know
uh... eastern flank without having to fight and
uh... fallen into the soviet union with nowhere
near prepared for war so we want to buy time
but both were really plotting uh... to betray
each other almost as soon as the ink was dry
on that thing so you know hitler's entire blueprint
from the beginning was that you said we've been
shot living space and that was going to come
in the east for the german people envisioned
a vast empire really a slave empire uh... of
german colonization stretching as far really
as the url mountains far east of moscow and uh...
so it all made sense in that respect but uh...
obviously was not a white you can argue the key
moment will work too and then of course subsequently
after pearl harbor later that year forty -four
forty -one he elects to uh... declare war on
the united states which of course changes the
dynamic of the war and in the peak and in the
beginning folks the Russian prisoners they were
they they were surrendering hundreds of thousands
at a time the lines hundreds of thousands but
the Russian soldiers at that point a lot of them
I think were just throwaways they were Mongols
etc and and and I do believe and we'll get to
this in just a little bit that Stalin saw all
this and he was scared he said what's going on
here but that had to be in That really had to
be insane for Adolf Hitler to think that he could
control a country the size of Russia and overextend
his army. But he moved on, pushed on, pushed
on to Leningrad, Stalingrad. He had his tanks.
He was rolling. He was going to the caucuses.
He was going to the oil. He was pushing across
Russia, expending. troops expending all his energy
moving moving and the russians are being defeated
are falling back falling back now kevin what
did patent think about all those well this is
what patent idea of war was a sort of total war
with armor in the front uh... with the infantry
you know behind and the armor which sort of what
they called it uh... all -ass and bypass and
basically you would pat you would drive your
tanks through the head of the heavy enemy resistance
uh... cut them off from their supply line their
communications and then have the infantry come
up surround and destroy them um... and that the
belief was that and then did you know it was
fact that as you would isolate these units with
armor that their morale would drop could they
realize they were surrounded into you would have
an as psychological advantage over your enemy
and so patent paid close attention to this and
studied it Ironically, the Germans took such
heavy losses by the end of their first year in
the Soviet Union with so many losses in tanks
that they reorganized the Panzer or armor divisions
in the German army and the American army copied
this thinking this was the most efficient way
to deploy armor when really the Germans were
just reacting to the loss of so many tanks. We
kind of misinterpreted what was going on there.
In December of 1941, that's when Stalingrad.
That's when it all started, folks, and the original
siege of Stalingrad, which was concluded in 1942
in the winter. So here's the German Army now,
and ooh, and what comes along. It's better than
a weapon. It was called the Russian winter. whether
here is the german army now pushing into russia
in here it's nineteen forty one in the winter
time forty one forty two tells about that professor
mcmahon's idea of the russian winter was absolutely
brutal that first year for the for the german
armed forces forty one forty two uh... the germans
suffered about nine hundred thousand casualty
that first year which many of which of course
could not be replaced armed forces by about october
november in a situation where they've gone deep
into russia and logisticians are having to choose
uh... among basically two out of three vital
things food ammo or went or uh... warm clothing
for the approaching winter uh... because the
russian road network so bad german armies are
so deep into russia so on and so forth and obviously
they choose food and ammo so the germans are
very well prepared for the winter at that point
and pay the price for it in front of moscow now
the next year don dot happens which is from about
number forty two through february forty three
or better prepared for the winter and they certainly
understood a lot about winter warfare but it
didn't make it all that much easier so this is
something they deal with over the course of the
entire war forty three and forty four and then
forty four forty five but i think it's also possible
to argue that the german experience with winter
warfare prepares them better for adverse weather
in the battle we call the Battle of the Bulge,
which is the biggest American battle of the European
theater, and much of which is fought in very
difficult winter weather. So the Germans were
probably better prepared for the U .S. Army at
that point, too, because of the experiences they
had in Russia. Okay. Now, and I know I'm jumping,
taking big blocks of time. We've got the Germans
are pushing in the Russia. They're going closer
and closer to Moscow. Some of the scout troops
were talking about seeing the golden domes of
the Kremlin through their binoculars. I mean,
they were close, folks. They're coming in. And
what happens? Pearl Harbor. Pearl Harbor. The
Japanese and the Americans. The Japanese attack
America, of course, Pearl Harbor. And what does
Hitler do? He declares war on the U .S. Tell
us about that, Kevin. consider one of hitler's
greatest mistakes because the america united
states with attacked by japan and uh... so we
were contemplating a war with japan but uh...
you know how to get out of declare war on germany
will eat off hitler solved that problem by declaring
war on our which he did because of his alliance
with japan but that was a little bit of a conundrum
for roosevelt at first but it off it was all
that form uh... of course what that was done
the decision made in the war department and i
think it was a very tough decision was to follow
a uh... european first strategy because although
we've actually got fighting going on in the philippines
americans uh... taking heavy casualties and eventually
are going to be surrounded and have to surrender
in the philippines uh... decision is this is
the greater foe this is the greater threat united
states germany because it is so much more technologically
advanced from Japan. And in addition, it's the
one that's hammering England, our great ally.
And so the decision is made to put Germany as
the priority, with Japan as the second priority.
And that's the way the war is going to go. That's
going to be the main thrust of the United States
through North Africa, Sicily, Italy. And then,
of course, you're going to have D -Day in June
6, 1944, which is really going to start the breaking
of the back of the Nazi war machine. Well, I
still every time I I think of this and I and
I and I look at it I think that was insane along
with the invasion of Russia the fact that he
Professor McManus what what and what what do
you feel would have happened had he had not declared
war on Germany? Certainly would have been a better
go for Germany and the reasoning behind it. I
mean it's possible to come to grips with it and
understand it Obviously, he's deep into his campaign
in Russia, and though he's met with adversity
that winter, 41 -42, it's important to understand
Germany is still in charge in the war. They control
most of the continent. They've had the better
of the fighting in North Africa against British
Commonwealth. German U -boats have been savaging
Allied shipping on the North Atlantic and elsewhere,
and so the way Hitler interpreted Pearl Harbor...
he overestimated it he felt that america's greatest
asset navy had been basically taken off the board
so now we could do you've been fighting an undeclared
war with the u .s. anyway in the fall of forty
one in the atlantic because of our uh... navy
helping who supplies to great britain and when
we right yeah when we exactly so we were anything
but a neutral really info he felt now i can take
the gloves off and now i can really marginalize
the united states and strangle great britain
at the same time and i'll probably be done with
the war in russia next year which of course over
optimistic and i'll be the master europe and
the western allies can't do much uh... so that
any really underestimated the american uh...
out uh... effect on the outcome of world war
one of course too so uh... he underestimated
the united state this was a major mistake this
is what he was thinking at the time so i don't
know if i call it insane just a miscalculation
Well, a lot of insane people miscalculate, but
let's get back to... Okay, so now he's at war
with the United States, and he's at war with
Britain, he's at war with France, he's at war
with Russia, and he's extending himself. By the
way, folks, Germany was really deficient when
it came to transportation. They were still using
horses. and to move their equipment around and
eventually that's going to come back and catch
them because they weren't able to supply all
these folks, all these troops that were going
into Russia. Okay, so now we've got that. And
Liebensraum, one more time. Kevin, a little bit
more on that. I think that basically was where...
uh... hitler and they got that from i don't remember
the person's name the german who uh... uh...
philosopher who originally came up with that
they had the idea there was there was a lot of
eighty million german people uh... in germany
with a small country they needed room to expand
but why would you think that you you know you've
been talking about a thousand year right and
you're trying to solve everything in the first
eighteen months tell us about that kevin well
that was uh... sort of a reason for expansion
that it sort of with the justification for invading
other countries where it almost could be reduced
almost tribal anger and hatred that the long
-standing uh... hatred of the french who they
had bested in the war of eighteen seventy and
had been fought to a standstill in world war
one uh... they felt they were robbed of a victory
there in the west and then of course there was
that belief that uh... that russians were were
uh... genetically inferior to germans and in
the fact that they became a communist society
uh... almost just in bitter hitler all the more
and so the sort of twisted logic is if we can
get rid of these inferior beings it's going to
free up the land for our superior uh... arian
uh... he'd already started that within the borders
of germany mostly with jewish people in any other
minority that was not of the body i guess you
could call it And so the rationalization is,
you know, we are the superior beings. We are
destined to rule the world. These other inferiors
are in our way. So all we have to do is clear
them out. We'll take over the land. We'll create
the breadbasket for ourselves to become a great
country. And it was just this sort of twisted
logic of the superiority of the Aryan brand.
Well, I remember my parents talking of they were
not. interventionist at all, period. In fact,
my mother would talk about that there were 10
,000, she remember her using this, 10 ,000 coffins
stored by the United States because Roosevelt,
she would not, yeah, she called him Roosevelt,
which is really the way to say it, said Roosevelt,
but with disdain. And I think that also Hitler
saw all that, but that all changed. My folks
became patriotic once all this started. And Germany
declared war so I believe that that had a big
influence now Let's get back to okay. They're
they're knocking on the door of Moscow and here
it is folks This is this is the light the lightning
is coming here. They are there 15 miles from
Moscow there. They're coming in and The Russians
find out through their spies that they're not
going to be attacked by the Japanese. So they
moved those troops, I don't know, a million or
something and 4 ,000 tanks, to right Moscow.
Tell us about that, Professor McManus. Right,
they redeployed most of their Far Eastern Army
to the area around Moscow and launched the surprise
counter -offensive in december nineteen forty
one right at the time of the german armed forces
were really and reaching the limit of their entire
endurance so not only did they push them back
from moscow they ripped a huge hole the german
front that the germans that had to really scramble
to patch it together and hitler famously did
not authorize retreat open the whole the line
and all the rest of it both things are stabilized
by the red dot But obviously it means the war
will continue and it changes the dynamic of the
war and only adds to the casualty numbers and
of course at that time Japan moves on the US
as well. Well here come the Russians and they're
prepared and their troops are prepared and they're
clothed and they're fed. We're not talking about
the rabble that was used prior to that, the years
before that were just thrown out there for sacrifice.
So here come the Russians and they're pushing
the Germans back. pushing them back, oh man,
there was this big tank battle at Kursk, and
that went against the Germans, and now they're
being pushed even further back, further back,
further back, and they got, where are they going?
And we got the Americans coming up from the other
directions. They're caught. Now, what happened
then, Kevin? So many hundreds of miles between
the Western Command and the Eastern Command are
basically starting to fight back to back. The
invasion of June 6th is a huge success for the
American Army. Once Patton's Third Army becomes
activated on August 1st, he just drives helter
-skelter across parts of France, liberating cities
and towns, terrifying the Germans. They're stuck
in a pocket around a town called Fillet that
is basically squeezed shut. Some German soldiers
do escape the pocket, and we really almost butt
up against the border of Germany by the end of
September, but German forces kind of rally and
they kind of fight us to a standstill. The American
and British armies do run low on fuel and ammunition,
so there's sort of a stalemate between October
and November, and then of course Hitler's going
to launch a huge counterattack. This is really
Hitler and Germany's last gasp. for any kind
of success in the West. That is basically crunched
up like a piece of paper in a fist, with a great
deal of help from Patton driving up from the
south to the north, first liberating Bastogne,
which is surrounded with 101st and 10th armored
soldiers involved, and then closing off the entire
bulge. Once that is accomplished, the entire
American and British armies turn east and begin
the race into Germany. And the last real barrier
is the Rhine River. Now, Eisenhower has slated
Montgomery, Field Marshal Montgomery, in the
north to lead the attack across the Rhine River.
His belief is that's where all the German industry
is, and that's the most valuable target. And
of course, Patton is kind of very bitter about
this, that Montgomery's going to lead the great
attack. Well, it turns out to be the first army
under Courtney Hodges It surprisingly captures
a bridge, the Ludendorff Bridge at Remagen, and
they push an entire armored division across and
then other units before the bridge actually collapses.
But the Americans are the first one to make the
cross. And then Patton rushes his 5th Infantry
Division to the Rhine River. They arrived at
night. And I've actually talked to some of the
soldiers in the unit. and they could usually
when you get to a river you you know the trucks
pull up or you run up to the river and you wait
about twenty four hours will they bring boats
up this was some of the soldiers from the fifth
inventory that when they arrived at the ryan
river there were already boats waiting for them
pat really planned ahead for this and instead
of launching artillery barrage across the other
side of the river to test the push the germans
away he just felt the soldiers across and he
puts an engineering each of these wooden boats
and their job is to cross with the soldiers and
then turn around and push the boats back into
the river so there'll be nothing blocking the
follow -up troops and then they're to all jump
into one boat and paddle across the back and
do the same thing again and so within twenty
four hours Patton has got almost you know two
regiments across the ryan river he contacts Omar
Bradley tells him I've beaten Montgomery across
the ryan river he did it twenty four hours before
Montgomery's big attack And it takes a little
air out of the big offensive in the north and
really adds to the Patton legend that, you know,
without any assistance where Montgomery was getting
everything, Patton crosses the Ryan River first.
Well, okay, now the Germans, now they lost the
battle of the Bulge and they're getting squeezed
into their own country. And here they are now.
The Russians are coming in from the east. The
Americans are coming on from the west. The prize
is Berlin, they're about equidistant away. Here
come the Russians, they're gonna go in there
and they expect a million casualties. Here's
what I thought, and Professor McManus, you can
comment on that, that the American Army decided
not to do that because the American public, I
go back to what I said earlier about my parents
and how they all felt, that they could not, the
American people would not, continents. that lost
the casualty lost tell us about that professor
mcmahon's certainly any uh... any push for berlin
fighting block -to -block in berlin is going
to be extremely casualty and the soviet ultimately
are going to overrun berlin and theater the ultimate
prestige objective war which is might be very
very questionable so if i have an hour makes
the decision uh... in effect let the soviets
go in and take the land and and one of things
that factors into his decision that he knew uh...
at previous high -level conferences most notably
alter in february nineteen forty -five the alliance
of arty agreed to zones of occupation in berlin
and then of course which will end up being the
soviet sector so any ground you gain you would
simply have to give back soviet anyway uh...
so the the berlin decision was very controversial
during the early phase of the Cold War, I'd say
the first 25 years or so after World War II,
and often seen by some as a mistake. Well, Eisenhower
will stand by this decision his entire life,
and when he ran for president in the 1950s, he
will give some of those casualty estimates. They
were not quite as high as what you'd mentioned.
It would be, you know, into six figures, though.
uh... and he would ask anyone in the audience
if they wanted to volunteer a family member to
die or be wounded become a casualty in what would
amount to just a prestige objective that would
have to be given back and this was a very very
powerful argument of course that in light of
happened in the cold war in the collapse of the
limbo all of communism in eastern europe uh...
i'd believe eisenhower was validated in every
respect you know how there would be some i suppose
that even today Okay, that comes to Bob Gould.
Second big event in World War II would be, instead
of six -figure casualties in Berlin, somebody
gave the order, somebody gave the order to go
north and to go to Pimundi. How huge was that
to get Werner von Braun, a Nazi, an SS, he was
a member of the SS, I mean the guy was... Well,
wherever you want to label them, but to go there
and to capture the scientists, to get the rockets,
how huge was that? I mean, when you look at our
military today, and you've got to go back to
Goddard and you've got to go back to Werner von
Braun. Kevin, comment on that. Sure. That was
a highly sought after prize by both the Soviets
and the United States. uh... to look to capture
german rocket technology because it was so far
advanced uh... from anything either of the country
had uh... we were fortunate enough to get the
scientists the russians got their hands on from
rocket we bought but i've heard of on brahman
his uh... crew of scientists united state and
they started working uh... for the u .s. army
developing rocket and when the soviet uh... launch
sputnik into space to begin this big uh... basically
or not i would go to arms race in space but state
that the state races board and um... for some
reason the president decide to go with navy rocket
uh... and they keep blowing up on the padded
to great humiliation united states uh... and
then the decision is made to go away from the
navy and to go with vertebrate on brown uh...
method of uh... development of missiles going
into space and that is successful And von Brahm
is then going to be put in charge, not in charge
of NASA, but he's going to have a very prominent
role in designing the rockets. They're going
to get American astronauts to the moon. That
is an incredible legacy. He had dreamt about
traveling to the planet as a child. This was
always a dream of his. He wasn't a saint. He
had Jewish slave laborers working in the rocket
camps. Thousands a day died, thousands. Yeah,
yeah, like I said, he was no saint. He was part
of that Nazi system that employed slave laborers.
The British and the Americans bombed their launch
areas, but he really understood rocketry and
what it would take to get out of the Earth's
orbit to the moon. And so from this Nazi world
that he was employed in and dropping rockets
on Great Britain and in Antwerp, he becomes They're
pretty much key scientists to NASA and ideal
in getting the United States to the moon. We've
got less than two minutes. I mean, I still got
a ton to cover. We're not going to be able to
cover that today. You know what, folks? Raise
your hand. Why don't you say we bring these guys
back again? Yay! Yay! There's Derek. And because
we've got to talk about all the rats that they
all committed suicide except Borman. And oh,
that's such an interesting story. about Guring
and, and, and, oh, what a, blah, blah. Anyway,
so I'm going to give you boys a couple of chances
to promote your books. Kevin, very quickly, like
I said, we've got about a minute and a half.
Tell us about your books, the photographs with
Patton. Sure. Patton's photographs is a book
of the photographs that General George S. Patton
took himself personally throughout World War
II. i discovered them in the library of congress
uh... back in nineteen ninety six uh... to make
number of years to get the whole collection together
i selected the best ones i could find with the
patent diaries and letters found any references
you need to taking pictures but this wonderful
book together with a labor of love and anybody
who read that would make me happy now we've got
something very quickly the dead and those are
about to die kevin mcmahon says coming out in
paperback very quickly that the last word you
got thirty seconds Right, The Dead and Those
About to Die, D -Day, The Big Roundup, One at
Omaha Beach is coming up. Paperback on May 5th.
If you'd like me to sign it or whatever else,
just get in touch with me. Okay, this is Bob
Gould, Veterans Radio. Until next week, you are
dismissed.