All across America and around the world, this
is Veterans Radio. This is Veterans Radio. And
now, your host for today's program, Dale Throneberry.
Welcome to Veterans Radio. My name is Dale Throneberry,
CW2 type person, Army helicopter pilot, 1969.
Oh my God, it's almost 50 years ago. It's hard
to believe. Welcome to Veterans Radio. Spring
has sprung in Michigan. We got over 60 degrees
today. The snow has finally melted. It's a gorgeous
weekend here in the Midwest and we are so excited
to have you on our program. We've got a great
program for you. We're going to be talking to
an author of a book called Gravity. It's about
a Tennessee National Guard unit that was sent
to Iraq. It's a powerful, powerful. story and
we're really excited to have the author Beth
Underwood with us later on in the hour. As you
know each week on Veterans Radio we've been really
pushing the idea of hiring the veteran and so
on today's program we've got another guest and
this is from a really big organization so I'm
really excited to have her on the program and
before I talk with her her name is Jennifer Gearing
and she is the Senior Director of Business and
State Engagement for the Hiring Our Heroes program
at the United States Chamber of Commerce Foundation.
That's the United States Chamber of Commerce.
That's the big one. And she is the senior director,
as it says, of the Hiring Our Heroes program.
She has been with the Chamber of Commerce since
March of 2003. She's lived in Michigan. I just
read that this morning. Finally read my PR piece
I got. She was president of the Dearborn Area
Chamber of Commerce in Michigan for over eight
years. and she's a graduate of Bowling Green
University. That's another Mac school so we like
Bowling Green. And right now I want to welcome
Jennifer Gearing to Veterans Radio. Thank you
so much. It's great to be with you this afternoon.
Thank you very much for taking the time out of
a beautiful Sunday. I'm sure it's Sunday wherever
you, where are you anyway? I'm in Washington
D .C. and it is beautiful here today too. Spring
has finally reached the Northern Virginia and
D .C. area. It's exciting when the sun is out
and, you know, you can go outside and just kind
of take a deep breath and you don't, you know,
it doesn't freeze your lungs. That's right. As
we do have. Well Jennifer, as I've mentioned
in your introduction, the reason that we have
these organizations on Veterans Radio is because
of all the... the amazing work that all of these
corporations are doing, and I find out that the
United States Chamber of Commerce Foundation
also has a Hiring the Heroes program. Could you
please tell us a little bit about your program?
I'd be happy to. We just celebrated our four
-year anniversary. The program was started by
an individual who was employed by the U .S. Chamber
of Commerce, a Marine who was traveling around
the country with the CEO, Tom Donahue, and realized
that employers really wanted to take a large
role in employing our nation's veterans and military
spouses and transitioning service members. So
the program started organically with the idea
of just having one hiring fair. And Dale, we're
happy to report we've had over 870 hiring fairs
in four years. That's about one per business
day. But more importantly... We're getting folks
hired. We've documented over 25 ,000 hired from
our hiring fairs alone. And we have our goal
set on collecting 500 ,000 hires through all
of our partners and all of our programs by June
of this year. Well, how are we doing? We're doing
great. We're just over 400 ,000 right now. So
we're on track for sure. Wow. So if I'm a veteran
of Iraq, Afghanistan, and I'm looking for some
help, How do I get help from the chamber? So
we have a multitude of programs, events, and
initiatives. And I'd like to point out that we
serve transitioning service members, veterans,
and military spouses, veterans of all eras. So
we work with Vietnam vets, Korean vets, and I
actually had a phone call from a World War II
vet who had his sights set on being a greer at
Walmart. So I did everything that I could to
make that connection happen. But all of our programs
and events are accessible via the internet, HiringOurHeroes
.org. We have a robust schedule of events, not
only in communities across the country, but also
on major military installations. We'll have 20
what we call transition summits on military installations.
And actually three overseas this year will be
in Japan, Korea, and Italy. But our digital programs
include webinars for both employers and job seekers.
We have resume translators and creators for job
seekers, veterans and military spouses. And we
have what's called Fast Track. It's a way to
illustrate fast growing industries and fast growing
communities. And then again, virtual hiring fairs.
So veterans, service members who are serving
overseas can connect virtually with employers
back here in the states. And then of course what
we call our brick and mortar hiring fairs in
communities across the country. Wow, we're talking
with Jennifer Geary and she's the Senior Director
of the Hiring Our Heroes program at the United
States Chamber of Commerce Foundation. And this
kind of sounds like a clearinghouse for everyone.
So if I run a smaller, large business and I want
some help in setting up a Hire the Vets program,
I can contact you too. Is that correct? You absolutely
can. And what we did to help employers, small,
medium, and large size employers all across the
country and in various industries, we created
what's called Employer Roadmap. And through our
great partnership with USAA, we collected articles,
research, best practices, and action plans and
put them online at folks' fingertips 24 -7 in
a really easy and digestible way. Now you can
go out there and and comb the internet for information.
You could look for days and download hundreds
and hundreds of pages of information. What sets
employer roadmap apart is we deliver it in a
unique way. You tell us if you're a small, medium,
or large size business, and if you're novice,
competent, or proficient in the space. And based
on one of those nine profiles, we deliver information
that's informative and relevant and timely for
you. So if I'm talking with a 20 -year Air Force
veteran who's now the military recruiter for
a Fortune 500 company, I'm not going to put him
through military 101 like I would a new recruiter
that just graduated from, let's say, Michigan
State University. Yeah, one of those places.
Okay. Well, it sounds fascinating and I love
the idea that you're almost achieved your goal
of half a million folks. That's a half a million
jobs out there and that's just through this one
program and as our listeners are aware of we
have been talking with a lot of different corporations
every week about their veteran transition programs
and colleges have their veteran transition program
and I think it's such a great opportunity for
this generation of veterans and as you pointed
out also for older generation of veterans to
find jobs you know if they need help in relocating
or all these other things. So if we need help
Or they need help. I got a job evidently every
Sunday afternoon. Where would they go? Hiringourheroes
.org. As I mentioned, all of our events and programs
are there, housed on that portal. We also have
a robust social media platform. So, you know,
almost 400 ,000 followers on Facebook. We have
an Instagram platform as well as Twitter. And
we're, you know, just a click away. great team
in Washington D .C. and folks spread actually
out all across the country and were willing to
help make those great connections between service
members, spouses, and the employers. We've got
a lot of really good work to do. You know, as
I mentioned, 870 hiring fairs and almost 500
,000 hires, but we have more work to do. We have
1 .5 million transitioning service members who
will be... We'll be transitioning into civilian
life in the next three to five years. And this
really becomes an issue of workforce development.
So we want to make sure that we have all those
great resources at the fingertips of both, you
know, the job seekers and employers alike. So
is this one of the programs where you can, you
pair up the veteran or do you kind of look at
their experience in the military and translate
it into civilian possibilities? We do. We have
a great program. It's called the Personal Branding
Resume Engine for veterans. And we have what's
called Career Spark for military spouses. And
we help them translate that experience. In the
instance of a veteran, we help them take those
MOS codes and their education and their awards
and acknowledgments and put them into a resume
that's easy to read for a civilian. And then
for our military spouse population, It's that
incredible volunteer experience, work experience,
sometimes gaps in the resume because of PCSing
and we help put a resume together for a military
spouse that really showcases the great experience
they have and the great values that they would
bring to an employer as well. Wow, this is great.
I was talking to a young veteran the other day
and he just couldn't figure out how to put a
resume together and now I've got a place to send
him. Absolutely. Personal branding, resume engine,
and career spark, both powered by our good friends
at Toyota. And I should mention, everything that
we do is free. So accessible, you know, we don't
want to put any barriers in between our job seekers
and employers, so we're committing to, we've
committed to making sure that all of that is...
All those resources are accessible. This is really
exciting, Jennifer. Thank you very much for being
on Veterans Radio. For all of you out there that
are listening, go to HiringOurHeroes .org and
this whole thing is in front of you. I'm looking
at their website right now and I'm thinking of
getting a new resume, see what I can come up
with. Well, thank you very much and I hope to
have you on again and get an update of how things
are working and maybe getting on your mailing
list so I can find out where your hiring fairs
are and we can alert our local audiences. That
would be great. We have monthly newsletters that
we send out to employers, job seekers, and military
spouses. So I would love to have you subscribe
to any one of those newsletters on our home page.
All right. Jennifer Gearing from the Hiring Our
Heroes program at the United States Chamber of
Commerce Foundation. Thank you very much for
being on Veterans Radio. Thank you. All right.
Men and women are coming home right now. There's
another place for you to go find a job. Leave
and take your MOS. translated into a civilian
skill and those employers are going to hire you
because we know that hiring a veteran is a good
job and a good idea and they work hard and they
follow orders and they can improvise and they
can just go to plan C, D, and E if things don't
go right. We're going to be taking a little break
right now and when we come back we're going to
be talking with a good friend of ours, Joyce
Faulkner, who has her own publishing house. that
I just learned about a couple of weeks ago. And
she's going to be talking about some of the stories
that the Publishing House is putting out there,
including our guest later on in the program,
Beth Underwood, with her book, Gravity. So we'll
be right back after this message. You're listening
to Veterans Radio. And we're back on Veterans
Radio on a beautiful Sunday afternoon. The sun
is shining here. And I know that the sun is shining
in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, where our next guest
is. And I'm welcoming a good friend and frequent
and guest on Veterans Radio, Joyce Faulkner.
Joyce, welcome back. Hey, it's nice to hear from
you again. How's things going? Going really well,
going really well. In fact, I'm so happy to have
you on the program and talk about your publishing
house. I like the sound of that, don't you? I
do, too. It sounds great. I just want to remind
our audience that Joyce, I met Joyce at a military
writer's society of America. conference, I don't
remember when it was now. 2009. Wow, okay, 2009.
And she was the president of that association
at that time. And I had a great time there, met
just so many incredibly talented men and women
and writers and veteran writers and so forth.
And it's just been a supply line for Veterans
Radio to introduce you to some really great stories.
And that's what I think what both of us are dedicated
to is getting those stories out. And when I was
reading the PR part of your blog for her publishing
company is called Red Engine Press, correct?
Yes, Red Engine Press. Where did that come from?
Well, we had years ago, we started this company
I think probably around 2006. And we were partnering
with a gentleman who was a disabled fireman.
And he wanted to call the company Red Engine
Press. Now, in my mind, I had a red locomotive,
a choo -choo train. Oh, that engine. But, of
course, he was thinking about the red firing.
Okay. So he is a step back now. He's getting
better hopefully in his health and his issues.
But Pat McGrath Avery and I have chugged on with
our Red Engine Press. And we originally had and
still do had many varieties of genre. And when
I got involved with the military writers, we
kind of put Red Engine Press not completely on
hold but we weren't going full force. But as
we got involved more with the veterans, I did
a book for a gentleman who is a survivor of the
Time Death March and his name was Billy Templeton
and unfortunately he has since passed but it
really impressed upon us how important it is
to get these stories out. Billy had lived a long
life and he had three wives, three sets of children,
and while he had never not answered a question,
none of those kids knew the whole story from
beginning to end of what happened to him during
World War II. And when we finished the book,
and it was very trying for him to go back to
those times, as you can imagine. But when we
finished the book, his children came up to us
and thanked us that they now knew their dad in
a different way. And interestingly enough, we
had arranged for a launch of that book in Branson,
Ohio, I'm sorry, Branson, Missouri, and the young
Marines and sailors and soldiers were so excited
to meet Billy and so enthused to hear what he
had overcome and you could see that what he had
to say mattered to them. And after that we felt
very dedicated to getting those stories out while
there's still time to do it. And hopefully going
to the next step, you and I have talked about
this before, of encouraging people to write their
stories themselves. There are lots of good reasons
to do it. One being that you want to tell your
story your way and let's face it, your story
is your story. We did a book on the Sunshine
Tunnel Massacre survivors where there were nine
guys that we were including and they had nine
totally different experiences. You know, the
tall guys saw things differently than the short
guys. The guys at the front of the line saw something
different. The guys at the back of the line,
the guys who were shot, you know, experienced
something differently than those who weren't.
So at first they argued with each other. That
couldn't possibly be. That didn't match my impression.
But what we finally did was say, okay, We believe
all of you and your story is your story. Yeah
that's the way you saw it. In fact Joyce and
I really kind of bonded a little bit over her
book In the Shadow of Suribachi because we found
out that both our fathers had been at Iwo Jima
along with an awful lot of fathers of members
of the Military Writers Society. Yes. So we kind
of had an informal Sons and Daughters of Iwo
Jima meeting and found that as you mentioned
that, you know, we didn't know all the information
about our fathers. Either they didn't tell us
or we just didn't ask. And I think that was probably...
We didn't know to ask. We were, you know, maybe
you would have asked more because you're a veteran
yourself. But of course I was not part of that
world growing up. So I didn't know the right
questions to ask at the time. I didn't get to
because unfortunately my father passed away when
I was 15. And I didn't say, hey dad, what'd you
do in the war? I found an album after he had
died with all these pictures and things in it.
And I went, ah, ah, only if only I had known
what kind of kid was I. So yeah, yeah. Well,
in my case, I had known about this book. I remember
sitting in my dad's lap and looking at pictures
when I was maybe five or six. But we just moved
this last week and all those old things I found
boxes of and just going through them and looking
at the pictures of Munchkin Marine, he was like
5 foot 190 pounds, you know. Those realities,
when you put it together with, you know, the
rifle is almost as tall as he is and you start
really thinking about what it must have been
like, it's... stunning the things you don't realize.
Right. And what I want to get to here, we've
got about five minutes, I think, until we come
up to a break here, is that one of the things
that Red Engine Press is doing is that it appears
that you're trying to collect a lot of these
stories from various authors. And when I contacted
you last week, you were kind enough to put me
in touch with Beth Underwood. And how did you
find her before I bring her on? Well, Beth is
a member of Military Writers Society of America,
and she has been working on this book for a long
time. And she approached my writing partner and
business partner, Pat McGrath Avery, and said,
I've got this manuscript. Take a look at it.
And we were interested right off the bat because
we have a lot of material of World War II. We
have material of Korea. We have Vietnam. We have
nothing on the current series of wars that have
gone on. And we were very interested in what
she had been working with. And she was trying
to bring to the families of people who had gone
to war for quite an extended period for a National
Guard unit. and their experiences I think you
will be the first to say it's very often when
you first come back it's really hard to talk
about it and everybody seems so far away from
you and so distant and she was trying to cross
that chasm if you will so that the world would
know what these guys went through and appreciate
the sacrifices and the determination that they
exhibited during their time there. And Red Inch
and Press is looking for that kind of, you know,
we have four books on Iwo Jima. You know, we
have a couple of books on Korea. We have lots
of books on World War II, and this is our very
first for the war in Iraq. Okay, so if I am a
writer out there who's listening to Veterans
Radio and goes, I have this manuscript and I'd
like somebody to take a look at it, they could
contact you and how would they do that? They
can contact me at redenginepressinfo at gmail
.com. There we go, redenginepressinfo at gmail
.com and your website is? Redenginepress .com.
There you go. www. Easy to find. It is easy to
find and the website has got hundreds of books
on it. And I think that they're going to really
enjoy that. Joyce, I'm going to ask you to stay
on the line for as long as you can, but I want
to bring Beth on before we take our break just
to kind of introduce the book. So joining us
here on Veterans Radio is the author of Gravity,
and that is Beth Underwood. Beth, welcome to
Veterans Radio. Dale, thank you so much for having
me on. Great to be with you guys. Thank you so
much for making the journey home safely, or if
you're on the side of the road, I appreciate
that too. No worries. No worries, that's good.
In the next couple of minutes, if we could just
kind of get a little intro into this story of
gravity, which is the story of K Troop of a 278th
armored cavalry regiment of the Tennessee National
Guard, correct? Correct. Mostly? All these new
nomenclatures. So how did you come upon this
story? Well, at the time when these guys were
deployed, it just so happened that I worked in
a small town in Tennessee, Livingston, Tennessee,
which actually housed the armory for knife troops.
had just recently moved in and it was Veterans
Day 2004 and I landed on the square because Livingston,
Tennessee actually does have a courthouse square.
And I saw all these families up there, I mean
just hundreds of people. And as it turned out,
essentially that county, Overton County, Tennessee
had since their sons and daughters and brothers
and husbands off to war. And, you know, it was
a coming together, I think, up there on that
Veterans Day, just to pray for their safety,
to pray for their return, because at that point
there had already been a couple of Marines who
had been killed. So it was a really trying time,
I think. And then as I got involved with Knife
Troops, one thing led to another and you did
not know there was a story to tell. Well it is
a great story and I can't wait to go to the news
to come back and talk a little bit a lot about
that story and we're going to have one of the
members of Knife Troop on the program with us
because it seems like he kind of followed him
throughout the process since he was a National
Guard recruiter and I'm just kind of fascinated
by the idea of that the National Guard was even
called up. I don't think everybody was really
aware of what the National Guard's responsibilities
were and why it was so surprising I think probably
to the National Guard members that they were
called to active duty. Oh sure and not only called
to active duty but put in the front lines you
know they were they were in one of the more the
most hostile areas in Iraq known as the Triangle
of Death. So it was and you know this affected
in Tennessee roughly 4 ,000 people. It just took
that entire battalion and you know put them across
the pond. I just I can't wait to talk more about
this. We've got a minute to take a break and
as I was researching or luckily Joyce sent me
a Kindle copy of the book and I was able to read
it. It's a fascinating story and I can't wait
for our audience to learn more about it. Because
of the Tennessee connection that I've mentioned
before my dad was from Tennessee. from a little
town called Normandy over by Shelbyville and
then he taught school in Harriman and Springfield
and I was looking on the map where Sweetwater
was and it's just it brought the whole thing
home to me and so uh I can't wait to talk to
you uh to you Beth in just a moment we're going
to bring on as I mentioned one of the troopers
there and Beth Underwood is the writer of Gravity
a story of the of Keith or actually Knife Troop
the third of the 278th armored cavalry regiment,
National Guard from the Tennessee National Guards.
So we'll be back after the short break for the
news. You're listening to Veterans Radio. The
Medal of Honor is the highest award for valor
in combat given a member of the Armed Forces
of the United States. There have been over 3
,400 recipients of the nation's highest award.
This is one of them. Specialist Ross McGivis
threw his back against a grenade thrown into
his Humvee, saving the lives of his crewmates.
Details after this. On December 4, 2006, McGinnis
was manning the turret in the last Humvee of
a six -vehicle patrol in northeast Baghdad when
an insurgent threw a grenade from the roof of
a nearby building. As he stood up to get ready
to jump out of the vehicle, as he'd been trained
to do, officials say McGinnis realized the other
four soldiers in the vehicle did not know where
the grenade had landed and did not have enough
time to escape. He threw his back against the
radio mount and smothered the explosive with
his body. McGinnis was killed instantly while
the other four men survived. He was awarded the
Medal of Honor posthumously by President Bush
on June 2, 2008. The Medal of Honor series is
a production of Veterans Radio. If you'd like
to get in on the conversation today, you can
give us a call here at Veterans Radio at 734
-822 -1600. You can follow us on Facebook and
on Twitter. Not that I know how to use any of
those things, but we like to try and use them
as much as we can so people can keep updated
with what we're going on with. I have a little
review of the book Gravity written by Beth Underwood
that was sent in by a friend of ours and I want
to read this to you. It says Beth Underwood has
written a compelling tale of America's citizen
soldiers weaving a tapestry of how demanding
the strands of military and civilian life are.
People who trained on weekends often without
the advantage of continuing professional guidance
provided by our regular military branches are
asked to step into the fire of war in a dust
bowl a lifetime away. Our wars against terrorism
forced our reservists and National Guard personnel
to walk the tangled line between warrior and
family member in and out a number of times. Gravity
pulls the reader into the turmoil and refuses
to let go. This is by our good friend Mike Moon
Mullins, another one of the award -winning writers
from the Military Writers Society of America.
Beth, I think he kind of describes what your
book is about, don't you think? Oh, did we lose
her? Did we lose Beth? I would say we did. Sounds
like we might have. I think we might have. So
we'll track her down. So all right, Joyce, tell
me what you think of Mike's comments there. Well,
I think Mike obviously hit the nail on the head.
When I first read this book, I was just absolutely
stunned. that so many people were in the line
of fire and they were in the quote triangle of
death. They were right where things were happening
that I would have thought our regular trips would
be. I was totally unprepared to realize that
these guys even had jobs and homes and kids and
all of these things with the expectation that
they would just be serving for short periods
of time or, you know, do the weekend warrior
bit and these guys were in there doing it. That's
what I thought. In fact, we're going to skip
ahead a little bit and I'm going to ask John
Mack McCulloch, I'm probably mispronouncing that
Mack if I did, I'm sorry, who was one of the
members of the story that Beth wrote about. Mack,
welcome to Veterans Radio. Oh, outstanding. Thank
you for having me. Well thank you for, well I
know it sounds a little bit of a cliché, but
thank you for going there and doing your job
when it probably wasn't expected by you or the
other members of your group. Well there was a
few who didn't, I mean there was a few who did,
you know, and that I think Beth captured it perfectly.
For me as coming, you know, I did my initial
tour in the Marine Corps and so I became a recruiter
for the National Guard. simply because I missed
that being in service and stuff. And so the National
Guard was kind of a home to, just to kind of
get me back in uniform and still experience that
camaraderie. But most of the recruiters that
I served with initially when I came to the Guard,
the sentiment they had was that the National
Guard would get deployed whenever the Russians
came over the foothills and mountains. So for
me, I thought it was maybe a preparation exercise.
Some of the others thought, yeah, they wouldn't
have spent this kind of time and effort in trying
to get us ready to go. But me, I kind of straddled
the fence there for a while that, yeah, there's
no way they're going to take a little troop out
of Sweetwater, Tennessee and truthfully activate
them and send them across the pond. And so the
closer we kept getting to it, I'll have to admit
there was a part of me that... started to get
excited about it simply because the training
that I experienced in the Marine Corps, I guess
you always question yourself as a soldier as
to whether or not you could actually face the
rigors of what it's going to take. And so there
was a part of me that was excited about it, a
part that was nervous, and that's exactly what
I think Beth has done is she's captured the roller
coaster ride of emotions that you go through.
When you do have to face and confront this and
that you do get through, you know, an 18 -month
deployment, I think you learn a lot about yourself
in this process. So I really can't, I just can't,
I can't start to thank Beth enough for what she's
done and what Red agent presence has done is
that, you know, not many soldiers get the opportunity
to hold that time that they spent there in their
hands. No, and it's such a great story. How do
you pronounce your last name so I don't butcher
it again? It's McCullum, but that's the reason
the nickname Mac exists. I can't read phonetically.
It doesn't work all the time. Beth is back on
the line. Beth, welcome back to Veterans Radio.
Thank you. Glad to be back. I know you. I don't
know where you went. Beth, I'm going to ask you
first and then Mac, if you want to jump in, feel
free. I want to talk about some of the other
men in this story and the relationship because
one of the men was a football coach, wasn't he?
And he ended up in the same unit with three of
his former players. Right, right. Eric Leaver,
who is now principal at Sweetwater High School
and still coaches football. That's amazing. That
is amazing. My dad's concha, he was principal
at Harriman High School. His salary was $125
a month. I don't know. I hope he's doing better
than that now. I hope so too. What a small world
though. It is a very small world. So tell me
about these four especially who... We're training
on weekends and, you know, they go away for a
couple of weeks in the summertime and the next
thing you know, they're shipped down to Mississippi
and then out to California and off they go. That
pretty much sums it up, doesn't it, Mac? That
pretty much does. I mean those four, you know,
the thing of it was is that the difficulty that
was there. Did I just lose him? Okay, Mac, I'm
sorry. I'm not sure exactly what happened there.
So when you first got to Iraq, can you describe
it for our audience? I don't think people have
the opportunity to really realize what the terrain
is like, what the weather is like, and where
you guys were. Well, the area that we were in
in Belize there, for me, now that I'm out in
Arizona, I mean, it is very much similar to the
Sonoran Desert minus the saguaro cactus. But
it's almost as if you're time traveling. I mean,
the lay of the area out there looks pretty much
like, I guess what I'd always imagine. You know,
reading stories in the Bible look like. Still
got some of the old mud huts that are out there.
You know, a family's farm and their farmland
are still really close to the little small house.
Not uncommon to see just large fields. And all
of this growing in the middle of the desert,
temperatures sometimes like when we first got
there. November, December time frame is still
relatively cold at this time. A lot of rain is
coming in. Sandstorms can kick up at any moment.
So you've got the experience of rain, cold, but
then during the day it kind of heats up. So you've
got humidity. I always described it as though
there was like this orange haze that was just
present everywhere. that seemed like it never
went away. And your forward observation base
or FOB, where was that located? FOB Orion was
just about six clicks about maybe about three
miles south of LSA Anaconda, located right north
of Baghdad, just there on the outskirts. Yeah,
our predominant role there, we controlled pretty
much everything between the northern part of
Baghdad on up to some of the southern reaches
there of Samarra. And we had a pretty large area
that dealt with most of the what they call the
Salah al -Din province. And the major cities
that we had was Adujal. which Addijal was, of
course, one of the cities that Saddam had, you
know, murdered over 300 people. Right. That's
mentioned in the story. Yes. It's amazing to
me what I was reading in there, and I know that,
Beth, you're back on the line. Is that correct?
I'm back. Oh, here we go again, right? I better
get this story out. I'm going to come back to
Mac to talk about the conditions there and what
he ran into, but, Beth, we were talking about
the... the members of this organization. Can
you kind of describe some of them? Because it's
all across the spectrum of, you know, gung -ho
and some people are holding back and what am
I going to go over there and if I go over there
I'm going to get, you know, I can relate to this.
I'm going to go get myself killed someplace.
Can you talk about some of the people that are
in this story? Sure. Well, of course, Mac's here
to defend himself, so I'll move along from that
one, but one of them who sort of sticks out is
Vince Gray, who was, you know, he was nervous
from the get -go, and I don't know that he, I'm
sure he overcame that nervousness at some point,
but certainly, yeah, he always was willing to
step up, no matter what was asked of him. He
clearly was able to step up and do whatever he
was asked to do. that nervousness that he sort
of went into. Just to me, he was a very, he was
a very meek person. I don't know that he would
agree with that definition. But certainly that
was one end of the spectrum. And Mondo, Billy
Yates Matoy, he was a, well, he was Spike the
Bulldog, I think, as I have described him. You
know, he was just rough and tumble. I'll get
it. I'll knock the door down. Whatever you need
me to do. Breach the door. I got it. I'm your
man. Send me in. And then, you know, you had
Paul Shannon, who was their commander, who was
seasoned at this, as was the Army Ranger that
they had, Neil Wolfenbarger. So, you know, you
really had, not only did you have people that
came from just the two weekends a month and two
weeks, or one weekend a month and two weeks,
or two weeks out of the year, you had that. Messing
with people that had 20 years active duty experience
whether it be as a ranger or you know Or whatever
the case might be so you had the experience levels,
but then you also had the personality Conflicts
and I think in the end the beautiful one the
beautiful parts of their story is that with all
of these different Personalities and different
experience levels. They made it work and they
made it work very well Yeah, I thought it sounded
as though they you know that you guys really
had a system going there that was working for
you Mac and it I Can't imagine going out luckily.
I was never I was never on the ground that long
So I mean I was a guy that just dropped you off
and took off and one Went away and came back
to get you later on So I can't imagine the pressure
and the tension that you're under when you're
going down these roads every day And they're
blowing up on you. Can you convey a little bit
of that feeling to our audience, you think? Well,
you know, that is probably the most difficult
part to explain. I mean, because it's one of
the biggest reasons, I think, that my experience
as a recruiter says it keeps people out of service
is that this level of fear. But the level of
fear that you had every day didn't really have
a whole lot to do with yourself. The most important
thing and the most important aspect is that your
fear in fights when you're out on a mission is
not what happens to me personally, but what happens
to the soldier on my left and my right. What
happens if I don't bring 110 % to the table today
and my actions cause someone other than me to
get hurt and and so when you're writing you have
this you have this intense feeling that um i
have a commitment to the soldiers i'm with to
give my absolute best because their life depends
on it so you it definitely is defined by one
of the army values of selfless service and what
that means so um again i mean even to this day
while We make a lot of jokes between each other.
Big Weave, I still get reminded from Big Weave
of an IED that I just missed one day. And then
you do. You kind of learn to make jokes about
it, even though the seriousness of it is, well,
it could have cost someone their life. And then
when it doesn't, and you get lucky, well, then
of course you do the next best thing is. And
you bring that up as a constant reminder that,
hey, you almost messed this up. But it's that
commitment that you feel for one another that
just really I mean, it seems to make it a lot
easier to deal with. I think that's so important.
And as you were mentioning it, I was thinking,
you know, we are more concerned about the people
on our left and right that we can't let down
our team, you know, by not concentrating on whatever
our job was. And, you know, you were talking
about Captain Shannon and Lieutenant Tiffin was
nervous about, you know, how is he going to perform?
And it looks like he performed just fine as it
was going along. We've got about less than 10
minutes to go. Talk a little bit about Joey Hunt
and Vic Lawrence, if you would, Beth, start off
with. Beth? You know, it's so odd that you ask
about this, and I've just spent the weekend with
his parents. And everything I know about Joey
comes from Mac. and the other guys or Joey's
parents because I never I never met him um and
I just sort of everything I everything that comes
up in my mind is just this this good old boy
who probably always had a trick up his sleeve
that nobody else really knew about um and it's
like he had a maybe he had a little secret Maybe
he had a little secret to dealing with life.
Always a happy guy and had a heart of gold, you
know, would reach out to help anybody. His mom
talks about being in Kmart one time, and I think
he was about 13, 14, maybe 15, and she's really
just losing her patience. Come on, Julie. We've
got to go. We've got to go. She can't find us.
She's running through the store looking for him
and finds him in the toy aisle with some child
from, I guess, from elementary school. He said,
what are you doing? And he said, mama, he just
wants this toy. He doesn't have enough money.
I'm trying to help him find something he has
enough money to pay for. And those stories are
just everywhere. You know, when Jim and Marcia,
his parents, talk about him, that's what they
talk about. Just a gem of a person. And then
Vic, Unfortunately, his father has since passed
away, but I did meet with him a few times, and
I think Mac would tell you, and he can probably
tell you a lot more, but Vic was the big practical
joker, and he was always trying to talk Paul
Shannon into playing a joke on someone, and I
don't think he really cared who it was going
to be on. So again, another guy that's just good
old family guys. And I think they didn't want,
I think that, as Mac would tell you, one of Joey's
favorite songs was Simple Man. And he wanted
to learn that more than anything else. He wanted
to learn that song, come home, play it for his
parents. And that just so accurately describes
both of these men. Just simple men and good men.
Well, we always say here on the program as ordinary
men, we're put in extraordinary circumstances.
and do the best that they can. That's all that
you can do. Matt, can you talk a little bit about
Joey and Vic? I don't want to go into the event
because I don't want to spoil the whole thing
for people that are going to read the book. I've
probably already given away the ending anyhow,
but you're here. Tell me a little bit about these
two and about the men that were in your organization
or your platoon or in your your, you know, in
your knife troop and how you all related to each
other, because I found that would be interesting.
Well, the, you know, the thing of it was that
the third platoon was just, I mean, pretty much
they were, they were labeled as rebels. You know,
from the time that we got passed off from, we
were originally in Bravo troop over in Sweetwater
and It was almost as if this group was just hand
selected by the commander of B -troop, that if
I have to go, this list of men is going to go
with someone else. We're known for maybe not
being the most user friendly. As a recruiter,
of course, I understood immediately that I would
be marked as, oh, that's one of those admin guys,
and he's a recruiter, and I don't want to take
him with me. He doesn't have any combat experience.
And then the other guys that we had there, you
know we're we're pretty much either that either
they didn't really stand out or maybe in invicts
taste maybe they clowned a little bit too much
whatever the case may be but it kind of cemented
us together that this was a little family that
you know we we we took comfort in one another
we kind of figured that we were going to get
you know as as you know they say stuff rolled
downhill in the military and here we were at
the very bottom of the hill you know we get a
true Um, we're going to be attached to them.
Then K troops going to be cut out. They're going
to be attached to Wisconsin. So as you were looking
at who was on the top, sending the stuff down
the hill, you were sitting here in third, uh,
third platoon. No one looks kind of at you while
you're at the bottom, but it, it, it's kind of
like, it, it, it, it's cemented together to where
that no matter what came, you know, and, and
when Beth was talking, um, for me, Joey, you
know, as a squad leader, Joey always was kind
of that that thing that whenever I felt because
you get frustrated as a leader and you really
can't convey to everyone below you how you feel
and you're you know you're starting to get frustrated
and for me that I was really cold down in Camp
Shelby it was raining and we were out we're running
some sort of training exercise and I'll never
forget that day was one of those days I was like
you know what I don't even know what I'm doing
why am I here my wife's at home I had twin daughters
that were on their way, and what am I doing here?
And I look over and I see Joey sitting outside
and just rain pouring on top of him. He's got
a little poncho kind of wrapped around him. But
he had this look on his face, this little, we
always called it this little sheepish grin that
he had, that like Beth said, it looked like he
had this secret. And I kept thinking, okay, no
matter how bad I feel today. If he can sit here,
soak to the bone, freeze into death, and he's
got this little secret going on, okay, I'm gonna
keep doing what I gotta do. And Vic, with his
practical jokes, well, you always kind of hang
around with him just to see what's gonna happen
next, because it was always something that was
gonna be absolutely funny. more than likely going
to be something inappropriate which is going
to make it even more funnier. Well, I have to
stop the whole thing. This time has gone so fast,
folks. We're out of time. I just need to thank
you both very much for being on Veterans Radio
and I encourage our audience to go out and buy
this book. It's by Beth Underwood. It's called
Gravity. You've got to read this story. These
men are amazing and this is an amazing story.
So thank you both very much. I hope to get you
back on the program to finish talking about this.
Thank you for being on Veterans Radio. Thank
you. Thank you so much for having me. It is my
pleasure. Trust me, both of you. All right, folks,
that's another story that you've heard about
here on Veterans Radio and we will be back next
week. So make sure you tune in. You can go to
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So until next week, you are dismissed.