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Podcasts. We post something new every week, and
you're gonna find it informative. We've got a
couple of great programs for you today. We're
gonna hear from veterans themselves, not historians,
not authors, not researchers, but guys with boots
on the ground. First, we're gonna talk to Joshua
Shores, who... Chronicles his real battle In
being a warrior and all the things he struggled
with it's really a rock conversation and we're
also going to talk to Anthony Dwyer who is was
an Air Force gunner and again kind of a raw discussion
about what it's like to be in combat. I think
you're gonna find both of these guys have something
to say that'll help you understand if you haven't
been there and something that you can relate
to if you have. We want to welcome to Veterans
Radio today Joshua Shores who goes by Joshua,
so I don't know. I'm not dissing him. I already
asked him how he wanted to be called. Josh is
a Marine. He served for... Just under four and
a half years, yeah. Four and a half years in
the Marine Corps. Came out as a Staff Sergeant.
And there's been a lot of growth in the subsequent
years. And he captured both his four years in
the Marine Corps where he was both in Iraq and
Afghanistan and his time afterwards, the transition
and the issues with that in a book called Counting
on Death, a Marine Infantryman's Journey from
the Frontlines of Combat to the Fight for Peace.
It's really well done, Josh. It really captured
me in reading it. Nice job. Thank you for reading
it. I appreciate that. Thank you for having me
on. You know, you're a 19 -year -old kid and
You say to yourself, I just need time in the
Marine Corps. Yeah. Yeah, I was actually seven.
I was 17 when I signed the papers, you know,
and my dad was a Marine. My my mom's side of
the family had mostly Marines. And I had my my
dad's side grandpa and great grandpa both served
in World War one and two. You know, and so serving
was just something that felt right. And I'd always
had an interest in. But it wasn't anything that
was ever required. My parents weren't telling
me you need to go join the military. They supported
if I wanted to do the college route. But I knew
that's what I wanted to do. And you grew up in
the Midwest. Give us a little thumbnail of getting
through high school and kind of what that upbringing
was that you brought to the Marine Corps. Sure.
So yeah, my dad is an entrepreneur. And so I
grew up with that mindset around me. and helping
him at his shops and stuff growing up. So, you
know, a lot of the time growing up, spending
it with my dad was helping him build whatever
business he was doing just to be present and
see how that worked. And in high school, I worked
like three or four jobs at the same time juggling.
You know, if it was summer, I was working more.
Winter, I was working less. And I had a very
steady girlfriend that is now my wife. Now, this
is an important part of the story. He's been
married now 20 years. They went together for
a number of years in front of that. But there
was a wrinkle in this as well. And I think this
is, again, a kind of a common theme among military
men in particular. Talk about that wrinkle. we
stopped dating. So when I moved, I was a year
ahead of her in school. And so when I moved out
of town and went to the Marine Corps, that next
year was her senior year in school. And we had
dated at the beginning part of that, but, you
know, life back home, being different from here,
she was talking to guys, just hanging out and
having fun. And I got jealous. And so I just
started talking to, women out in California and
So we decided to break up for I think it was
like a three -month period in the fall I think
if I was talking to her she wouldn't say we Decided
to break up. Oh, no, it was me. Yeah, I think
I think that's I think that's right and Yeah,
and during that time it was just kind of like
well, I'm free. I'm about to go to war so I'm
just gonna do whatever I want and And then right
before I left on my pre -deployment leave, I
apologized for all my shenanigans and asked her
if she wanted to start dating again. And after
taking a good slap at one point, she took me
back. So as I say, this is a story a lot of guys
can relate to. So I'm sorry to put you on the
spot, but I wanted to break it out. Because you
are a young Marine, and they say, you know what?
You're a rifleman. We're sending you over. So
talk about your first deployment. There are two
of them we're going to talk about. But this first
one I think is where, as a young guy, your values,
your morals, your compass is really getting whipped
around. Yeah. So going there, so when I first
got dropped to one five, I got assigned to alpha
company, which was the, in a typical Marine Corps,
you know, training workup, they have different
assigned, you know, different assigned duties
for every company. And ours was a boat company,
which we didn't do any boat training when we
first got there. They had done a little bit prior
to us coming back before they went and did Fallujah.
But it was all Iraq combat focused. And so when
I got dropped there, it was with OIF -1 and OIF
-2 vets who were very salty. And so there was
a lot of expectations for myself and from them
that we needed to be ready to go to combat for
a third time for the unit, with that being my
first time. And so there's just a lot of expectations
of us young guys to be able to perform and not
let the team down. And so we looked to, you know,
we call them the senior Lance corporals. We looked
to, you know, the seniors that had been there,
the non -commissioned officers, officers, everything.
And, you know, it was just a whirlwind of training.
We got dropped right into like traffic training
evolutions for combat. So the mindset was definitely,
you know, we're going there to kill the enemy.
And then I talk about it a little bit in the
book, but I think the failure as a military force
to try to transition us into a battle space that
was more like, hey, we want to win hearts and
minds. There was a bit of a failure because our
mindset was just go there and kill. And Marines,
that's what we should do. That's what Marine
Corps is great at. And I think it was just kind
of a weird time to be in there in 2005, right
after all the big Pushes from Fallujah and the
initial Ramadi combat so You find yourself in
some hot situations that again sort of tested
your your moral compass you want to talk about
that a little bit yeah, so Combat is a interesting
interesting thing to take part in in that you
have you know your rules of engagement and when
you're new to it, you're like, well, that's easy
to remember. I'll do those things, you know,
but then the situations present themselves and
then the enemy's tactics because, you know, a
good enemy would adapt to what our tactics are.
And then they start figuring out what our rules
of engagement are. And so they adapt their combat
to, you know, maybe what we can't, how we can't
respond. And it makes us feel very vulnerable.
It was a very confusing place to be, especially
for, I think, a lot of the older veterans because
they had done, you know, the initial invasion,
which was an obvious way to do combat. You're
just going across and fighting an enemy. And
then Fallujah, too, where they had dropped leaflets
and made announcements that anyone left in the
city is considered an enemy to now putting us
in Ramadi where we're trying to mix in with the
local populace. And so that mindset is a hard
one to break, especially after you've experienced
heavy combat and you know what happens when you
let your guard down. So it was a very crazy place
of like IEDs all the time getting blown up or
hearing other units getting blown up, knowing
people that are getting killed and wounded. And
then also having, while you're going out on those
missions and getting blown up, the goal of that
maybe patrol was to shake hands and kiss babies
and how do you do that after you're losing people
and fighting cowards in a sense because a lot
of the tactics were quick ambushes and then they
run or they drop the weapon. One of the tests
your group had in Ramadi was protecting what
was called the government center where there
would be U .S. troops there almost all the time,
thus making it easy for the terrorists to go,
those guys are going to be there. So we now know
where to put our IEDs. And indeed, you lost some
guys as a result of that. And again, that really
threw based on the notes that you took while
you were there that became part of the part of
the book, counting on death. the loss of those
members in an IED situation and a government
center where you were constantly trying to protect
it really was formative to your experiences.
Yeah. And that's why, you know, I titled it coming
on death because I feel like the psychological
effect of the IED on everyone else that survives
them is that I was blown up. three times in in
Ramadi with IEDs and then we had like grenades
I got I got blown up with separately in Helmand
province but having that many different experiences
with it it's easier if I found it easier and
I think a lot of guys did just saying well I'm
not going to come home from this so I'm just
going to do what I need to to survive and I don't
really care you know Pretty early on you you
sort of said I can feel myself turning into a
monster Mm -hmm. That's a pretty shocking statement
Explain what you meant when you wrote those words
in the book Sure, so The way I looked at the
terrorists we were fighting as it was monsters
before I went, you know, they they killed, you
know thousands of people in 9 -11 and then the
war up to that point and you know the beheadings
of their own people or people of different religions
in the countries that that we were in. You know
I had this vision of what we were there to fight
and in reality like on reflecting and writing
the book when I first started this back in 2009
or 10 whenever it was I started writing this.
It was like well we were doing some of the similar
things, not beheading people and all that, but
there was this weird line that we were trying
to stay on that I watched myself and watched
others stray from just on the psychological effects
of war and the rules that were there. And it
wasn't until I wrote the book and then some of
these podcasts where there was a realization
that came out that Some of the reasons I felt
so much of the guilt that weighed on me was we
were trying to do what we thought our government
and our people, our citizens in America wanted
us to do. And at one point when I had that shooting
that I got an inquiry or investigation on of
that man, it was like, why am I getting investigated
for doing something that we were approved to
do? And now how does this war, like now what
do I do? you know, I thought I was doing what
everyone wanted me to do, what everyone trained
me to do. And instead of nice, nice job, it was,
why did you do that? And you know, you might
go to prison for it, you know, and so it was
a, as a 19 year old kid, you know, who's had,
you know, pretty intense combat at that time
and multiple blast exposure. It was like, I don't
know what my brain was doing, but I was just
in a survival mode. Yeah. And I think what captured
me about your writing here was it's just so candid
and raw about the emotions you were going through
and what you were trying to process and in your
brain, but also on a day to day basis of what
you run into and see and the reaction from militants
and civilians and how the hell you tell the difference
between them. You know, you're the books candid
enough to say hey at times I felt like I was
a bully or a moron for what I was doing and and
that's why this is not just a typical read it's
really a good reflection, I think of the Questions
everybody has when when put into those situations
talk a little bit about the audience you were
writing for I was writing for I Think mainly
friends and families of vets Um, you know, a
lot of the vets, the guys I served with, um,
know the story, you know, and, and everyone,
you know, I was talking with, um, uh, Kelly Thompson,
the lieutenant re -kernel, the retired lieutenant
colonel that wrote the forward for the book.
And, um, and he's like, you know, he was in some
of those firefights and he's like, yeah, did
you remember this thing or this? And I was like,
no, I don't. Um, I don't remember that happening.
And it's just interesting that any one of those
men that served alongside could write a book
and it would be, you know, similar timeline,
different events that they picked up on or witnessed.
And so I was really writing it for from my view.
And to go back to you saying it was very raw,
I came to the the conclusion that I should just
write it as real as I can, because a lot of the
stuff that was weighing on me are the things
that have led me to like suicide attempts and
constantly thinking about killing myself. And
and it's like, well, if I was willing to do that,
why can't I just share a story and let's see
what other people think and I think a lot of
guys have that weighing on them and so if I have
a book that family or friends can read that gives
a little bit of insight into some of the things
that that's might might be thinking or feeling
even though we are very good at hiding it then
that's a win in my book yeah it gives a little
understanding of it you know I think you've accomplished
that I think this is a book that should be given
to friends and family spouses and loved ones
to get a little peek inside what maybe their
marine or army vet went through in combat. You
have a section on sunflowers, my note says sunflowers
and blood and I'm going to make you talk about
it a little bit, but there's a line in it that
says, in that particular section on page 62 that
says, war turns the beautiful into the ghastly,
the kind into the cruel. Damn, man. Were you
an English major? What a great turn of phrase,
but really it's a bit of a trigger. Talk about
it for you. Yeah, so we lost five guys in an
IED blast from second platoon and our platoon
was tasked with doing the quick response force
for that. And so we were out there very shortly
after it happened and where I dismounted from
um on my vehicle I had to walk through a it was
like a small I don't know quarter acres or smaller
lot of sunflowers um that were about knee high
a little maybe mid -thigh high and um I walked
through it and I remember just looking down at
them as I'm walking trying to make sure there's
not another IED or anything else that might be
in there uh as I'm looking down I start noticing
there's debris and then um blood splatter on
the petals of these flowers and um and knowing
that the smells and everything else that were
there of the five guys that had died just forever
ruined the sunflowers for me. I can't look at
a sunflower and see anything beautiful. It's
just like I see that. And again, that's one of
those lessons for our family members because
unless you express that nobody would know why
that's a trigger, right? They would think, well,
look, I bought you a bunch of wifery, walked
through a beautiful flower shop and a bunch of
sunflowers. We have to express that, hey, this
triggers this memory for me, so that our friends
and families know that and can work with that.
But keep going back to family, because during
the middle of this, you sort of got to a point
where you're accepting death. and decide to end
your relationship with your fiance? Yep. Yeah,
I called off the marriage in the middle of it
being planned because we were planning on getting
married right when I returned from Iraq. I was
numb to everything. This is after my friends
had died. It was July 17th or 12th or something
like that. I have a little black book that would
be I've often thought it would be cool to publish
or do it like some kind of a company document
to the book because it's notes I took, but I
stopped writing it at that point. I said, no,
screw it. Why am I trying to even remember this?
I will never forget it. Why am I writing notes?
And at that point I said, I'm not going to make
it home. I'll call off the wedding. And so I
went into the phone trailer and called my wife
like an hour before we were leaving for the government
center, which is a four day post that we'd stand
and I didn't have a chance to call or she wouldn't
have a chance to communicate with me during that
time so I kind of set myself up for failure by
doing it right before we left and then my friends
you know on post and at the government center
convinced me that I was being an idiot and that
I was going to make it back and so the day I
got back, I called and said, I'm sorry, you know,
and then of course it wasn't just an easy, um,
Oh, that's okay. You know? Um, but I think that
was her first instance of seeing that there were
a lot of changes in me happening. Um, you know,
you actually got to the point where you write
that at one point you felt you didn't deserve
to come home. Yeah. Yep. Like seeing the quality
of, of men. that were surrounding me dying and
in the way I upheld their you know them in my
mind and you know it was like well why why does
this three -time combat veteran have to go die
it should be me but you know why this this person
survived way more combat than me um you know
i don't i shouldn't be here i'm not as good of
a marine as them and again i think that's the
sort of thing a lot of people think about Why
I like the book so much as it expresses this
and and makes us face it head -on But you do
come out of Iraq you get home you come you get
married in 2019. I believe it is 2005 yeah, October
of 05 and and now it's you're getting close to
the tour being up to your real list What do you
do? What do you do? Have you proven everything
you wanted to prove to yourself a lot a lot of
stuff going on in your head, isn't there? Yeah.
Yeah, and I had actually So my second deployment
after I got back was to the 31st Mew where we
did on like a Southeast Asia Float basically
and we went to Okinawa China in the Philippines
and so there's no combat in that one and after
I came off that they said, hey, we're starting
up this new organization or this new one had
just been started up called MARSOC, Marine Special
Operations Command. And they were looking for
infantry, combat infantry volunteers at the time
from one five as they were already like pulling
guys from recon and they had stood down force
recon to make MARSOC. So a lot of those guys
just kind of went right to there. And so I talked
with a couple of my friends and said, Hey, do
you want to extend our time? to go do MARSOC
and it sounded like a cool thing to attempt to
do. And so I talked to my wife and said, hey,
what are your thoughts if I, instead of getting
out, which I was supposed to do, what if I extend
my time and go to Marine Special Operations?
And she, we talked about it and she understood
that I felt like I needed to do that. And especially
because I assumed that most likely we'd be going
to combat and I had combat experience that I
felt would be wasteful just to get out of the
Marine Corps with. Um, you know, and, and now
having been a, I was a corporal at the time,
a senior corporal, I just felt it was my duty
to, to pass some of that on to younger guys.
So, um, or people, maybe that, that hadn't been
the combat. And so we extended and I went through
the Marsoc, um, all that training and ended up
having to send my wife home during that, because
we just never saw each other. It was so busy
training. And, um, And then that led us to going
to Afghanistan. And how long was that tour? That
was December through April. And before that,
we went to actually the Philippines for a month
and lived there. And we were doing foreign internal
defense training. So we cross -trained their
Philippine drug enforcement agents and some of
their special forces. It was NBI, the National
Bureau of Investigation for the Philippines.
So we did a month -long training program for
them, where I was the chief instructor there,
and that was an awesome experience, too. 76 students,
so. The book talks a lot about coming home, too.
And again, it's candid. It's what you want to
understand what's going on in a guy's head and
help get a look at what other vets may be doing.
You write, I lost track of my soul and when I
accepted my death, I became the enemy. I turned
into a terrorist in a foreign land and displayed
little mercy toward my opponents. All that's
rolling around in your head as you get out. And
you describe, you write, one word sums up my
experience of leaving the active duty military
and returning home. Loneliness. That's a lot
to carry. And it's a lot to carry by yourself.
How did you go through that phase? I drank a
lot and, and isolated myself. So I told you this
book is candid and Josh Shores is nothing but
candid. Again, a lot of guys do that. How do
you keep going through that and not ending up,
you know, on the slab? Yeah, I just, I think
honestly, there was something that happened along
the way there. My brother -in -law died in a
car accident right after I got out, like three
months after I got out of the Marine Corps. And
so my wife and I had a lot of optimism in what
life was gonna be while I'm still going through
stuff. And so when my brother -in -law died,
it was like, well, now that my rock, my wife
has been patient with me and supportive, is falling
apart. It's like, do I be, it's like, you know,
you have to make a decision. And my decision
is I want this family to work. And so, you know,
I just kind of put walls up and, and then it
was like, how can I be supportive of my wife?
You know, that's the most important thing at
this point. And so it kind of had to put a lot
of stuff aside. And at that point I said, well,
I can't, I'm having trouble doing this. You know,
I need help. And so I went to the VA and just
said, I need help. And they started me in a program
there. So at the end of the day, the program,
it was supposed to be just me in a meeting. And
I said, because of the situation with my wife
and I and her brother passing away, I said, I
can't do this alone. I can't do all this talking
at these sessions and then come home and feel
the way I do without my wife understanding what's
going on. She doesn't have the patience for it.
It's not fair to her. and so I asked if she could
come in on the sessions and they said well we
can't do couples therapy and I said so you'd
rather just me kill myself or do something else
than then have my wife sit in with me is that
is that where we're at with this it's ridiculous
and they said well let's we'll just have her
sit in and it ended up being something that was
kind of a couples therapy and it saved myself
and my marriage and um and it was a lot better
for my wife to be sitting in and hearing me talk
about the things that were weighing on me versus
me going to the session and then driving the
45 minutes back home and not wanting to talk
about anything. You call out in the book through
our almost year -long weekly sessions, Dr. Laura
gave both of us the tools to make it through
relationship and personal issues. And I want
to highlight, because a lot of folks, a lot of
guys think, well, I'm not going to the VA, they
don't care, blah, blah, blah. But you call out
that the mental health therapy that sessions
you got from the VA made the difference. It's
work. You write somewhere. It's hard work. But
don't cut off that avenue just because you think
those people don't care. They care, don't they?
Yeah, then they do. And that's the thing is,
from what my experience has been with the VA
system, at least, is they're not going to reach
out to every vet and say, how are you doing?
They're just not, it's just impossible. And it's
a, it's a governmental run program that supports
veterans, but you as a veteran have to look at
yourself and say, I need this help or it's time
now, or take the cues from your family. And that
was another thing that like, there were cues
from my family members of like, do you need help?
Maybe you should stop drinking as much. And,
you know, and so like, you have to be aware enough
and, and willing enough to help yourself by reaching
out and being persistent. You have to be your
own advocate. If they're not doing a good enough
job, you need to be the squeaky wheel that gets
the grease. And yeah, I had to go do some of
those things and it was tough at first, but once
I got the care, it wasn't shitty care. And I
think that's why I hear from a lot of vets is
like, they don't care. In my experience, after
I started the program and now even still, I still
see a therapist, at least quarterly, if not more
when I'm struggling. And that's done through
the community care from the VA. And I had to
be an advocate to get there. And I had to say
to myself that I need it. You have to be able
to say that. And that's a big step. And it takes
a lot because it's not weak, but you don't want
to come off as weak. Pretty good advice from
Josh Shores. You really have to be your own advocate,
and we've talked we preach that really on veterans
radio, so Here's another great example of a warrior
who's strong enough to say I need help and reaches
out and gets it Let's have a few more words from
our sponsors, and then we're going to hear from
Anthony Dwyer about his time as an Air Force
gunner helping out the guys on the ground the
army folks who loved him when they were around
Military veterans touch everyone's life. I'm
guessing right now you're thinking of a veteran,
a close friend, relative. Maybe it's you. Even
the toughest of us sometimes need help but don't
know where to turn for support. You don't need
special training to help a veteran in your life.
Even small actions can make a world of difference.
If you know a veteran in crisis, please call
the Veterans Crisis Line 800 -273 -8255. 800
-273 -8255. A message from the U .S. Department
of Veterans Affairs. If you have a VA claim denied
by the Board of Veterans' Appeals, contact Legal
Help for Veterans at 1 -800 -693 -4800. They're
experts in handling cases before the U .S. Court
of Appeals for Veterans' claims. Their number
again, 1 -800 -693 -4800. We want to welcome
to Veterans Radio today, Anthony Dwyer. You might
hear a little of his North Carolina twang in
there. Anthony, welcome to Veterans Radio. Thanks
for having me, Jim. It's a pleasure to be here.
Well, you spent 21 years in the Air Force. You
got some wisdom to pass along, but let's start
with how did a nice kid like you from North Carolina
end up in the Air Force? Yeah, so my senior year
in high school, I don't know, roughly six months
left of high school left there. My dad, you know,
gave me the typical dad talk of, you know, you're
about to be a grown man, like it's time to either
get a job, go to college or get out. And I had
talked to a Navy recruiter and he was talking
about being on a boat for six months and then
an Army recruiter. I was like, you know what,
I'm gonna talk to my dad about sort of the quality
of life of the Air Force. He was in for like
four years down in Tampa, McDill. And this is
way before I was born. And you know, it's talked
about the good child halls, the TDY and the golf
clubs and stuff like that, right? And again,
so I was like, yeah, I'm gonna do the Air Force.
And I was on delayed enlistment program for,
you know, about that six months. And yeah, July
18th of 2000, there I was on my flight to San
Antonio, Texas to basic training. Well, all those
jokes about the Air Force life, a lot of them
are true. So, as I said, you're in for 21 years,
got out as a tech sergeant in E6, now living
in New Mexico, but give us a thumbnail of what
your service was about because I'm not sure we've
ever had a special operations aviation guy on
veterans radio and a lot of the army pukes don't
have any idea what you guys did. Yeah, so I was
a special missions aviator and uh I flew in the
uh started out flying on the uh there in 2010
it was about midway through my career I started
flying but uh yeah the 16th Special Operations
Squadron on the uh AC -130 gunship the H -Model
Spectre gunship um you know and that the mission
of that the gunship as a whole is to provide
that uh close air support for your your unconventional
forces you know I like to call them super ninjas
you know give them that close air support and
And then also flew on the HA -60G Pave Hawk there
for about four or five years out at Moody Air
Force Base as a, you know, the 41st Rescue Squadron
as a spawn. What a special missions aviator is,
is, you know, back in 2012, 2013, the Air Force
combined the aerial gunner, the loadmaster and
the flight engineer career field made a really
like a Swiss Army knife in the sky, if you think
about it that way, sort of a jack of all trades
and all that. But yeah, it was a pleasure and
honor to fly and fight beside the best men and
women in the Air Force, you know. Well, we joke
about it a little bit to the army guys in particular
about the Air Force But they are sure glad to
have you for that close air support weren't they?
Yeah, yeah, you know a lot you know a lot of
times I worked with the being overheaded the
Rangers and the green brace stuff like that And
there were some nights you know not when we didn't
even shoot you know We're just our noise signature
would would keep the enemy at bay if you will
and those guys could get some you know a few
hours of shutout and stuff like that and and
tell us where your tours took you in terms of
Overseas missions Yeah, I went to a Bagram multiple
times. I think in the book I call it the Bagram
routine there and as a flyer, you know, it's
all about your flight hours so you can basically
get 335 hours in 90 days and if you hit that
or see that I have to set you down, you know
for a little bit and so we managed that and then
basically three months there and three months
back was the the ops tempo there for for Bagram
and then 2014 -2015 the ISIS, you know threat
happened and basically we went to at that point
Kuwait and then flew over, you know Iraq and
Syria and Basically was type three like controlled
air support. We have like a JTAC at that time
anyway with a with like a general on that You
know a talk or whatnot and basically clearing
you to engage on the on the ISIS enemy and stuff
like that And then in rescue I went to East Africa
would say that twice there These are not Guess
what I would call normal missions were they?
No, no definitely not you know there's I tell
people there's really two types of AC 130 to
gunship missions where There so back to even
2011 we were not we had pagers man And like they
would you know pages doesn't like an alert type
thing and it would either one let you know you
had troops in contact so you had to launch within
like things like 15 to 30 minutes be off the
ground and then You had the other ones which
would basically like somebody there's like direct
action stuff going on the ground like You know
could have seals kicking doors down green braids
doing fed type stuff And yeah, so there's basically
that that two types of missions and and one thing
I always loved about Whether I should or not
shouldn't you know these are all jobs You really
don't have to do but the end of the day like
you know there'd be ticks You know where those
guys been shot at all day, and we would get like
you know, miles away and start picking the enemy
up with our sensors and they just run like bees,
you know, hearing our four fans of freedom there
and they knew at that point, you know, it's over
for them. So it was to be that relevant, you
know, that sense of relevance, I guess, you know,
as far as a gunship guys, that was my whole why
all those years and, you know, making sure those
guys got home to their family. That was everything
to me. Yeah, that close air support and, you
know, in both of those instances, whether it's
Afghanistan Africa, Iraq. The Air Force has air
superiority. You want to talk about that a little
bit? Yeah, as far as like the air to air stuff,
you know, that no one's really going to test
us at least not in that environment. You know,
even in near period argue that, you know, they
wouldn't even stand a smidge of a chance with
us. You know what I mean? And as far as the close
air support, there's, you know, there's a few
Kings there. There's the AC 130 gunship within
the A -10 and then sometimes even the Apache,
you know. Well, all that combat experience while
you're up in the air, you're not down on the
ground, it still has an impact on the airmen
who's supplying that support and knowing what's
going on in the ground. How did you internalize
that situation? Yeah, so, you know, I always
say it's not what you do in flying in life that
haunches what you don't do, you know, and I'm,
you know, on the, uh, I was on a Casavac mission
when I was on rescue helicopters in East Africa
there. I think it was, uh, eight, June of 2018.
And, um, you know, we got to see the best side
of combat search and rescue that day where we,
you know, got to save five lives and then one,
one Eagle, one American when we got back. on
the operating table he passed away. So that one
sticks with you, you know, and I'd be lying if
I didn't say, if I wasn't still dealing with
that, but I was able to get a, you know, through
you so -called like a prolonged exposure therapy
with a psychiatrist. And part of that, what that
means really is you're getting comfortable being
uncomfortable telling your story, sort of like
you're doing, we're doing right here. And you
write that story out over and over and over,
which really led to the book, you know, because
she's like, you should tell your story. Someone
told me that a hundred times and I never did,
but once I got out and the dust settles, I was
like you know maybe someone could get help if
they read this and and to me that's what it was
all about just paying it forward and also to
show the rest of America this is what goes on
when you're sleeping. Well and I think that's
part of it is there's all kinds of ways to kind
of get yourself through this and not everything
works for everybody. Talk a little bit about
you know sort of and I'm only asking you do this
not because I'm you know, want to deal in tragedy
here, but I want to deal in reality. And there'll
be a lot of family members and veterans listening
in on Veterans Radio who don't maybe understand
the lows and where you were at and then how the,
it takes a few attempts to get out, right? I
mean, you don't transition through this in a
weekend. So tell us about the journey. Yes, so
I went back to gunships for my racing with 30
is my last two years here at Cannon Air Force
Base and and I wanted to deploy on my last or
my 20 year mark was with July 18th of 2020 as
my 20 year mark and went to Iraq there and and
I remember it was so slow, you know, we didn't
really shoot it off for those 90 days at that
point. And I just remember thinking like I could
see the end of it, you know, being near of my
career. I'm at 20 years, you know, that sense
of purpose, that sense of my identity was like
it was gone, you know, and. I got back and I
hit the retirement button in that whole year
time frame. I really developed a really bad drinking
problem to be honest with you. What started as
a weekend drinking habit turned into at least
a pint a night. So my wife basically gave me
the ultimatum of, hey, it's either the bottle
or me and your daughter. And I'm, thank God,
very thankful that God led me to choose my family
at that point. So she was like, you need to get
help. And some other people sort of noticed it
as well. And I went and got help. And that's
when I saw the psychiatrist and started that
journey. And then what would happen, every time
I wanted to... to drink, you know, I'd pick up
a pen and I'd write something down, you know,
and wake up in the morning and try to make the
sense of this sort of Charlotte's word, you know,
web of emotional words and just make sense of
two decades of word, you know, all those feelings.
So it's therapeutic in a way if you just bleed
it on the page, get it out because a lot of people
have the similar struggle that sells, you know,
sense of identity, a sense of relevance, you
know, when that's gone. And a lot of guys face
that same problem and the family says it's us
or them. Again, not maybe a switch you can flip
like a light and you decide right away you're
going to transition, you're going to stop doing
whatever the addictive or detrimental activity
is. When she gave you the ultimatum, did it take
you a while to say I'm there or was it a lightning
bolt and you were able to flip that switch? Yeah,
there was a couple of times where I, you know,
I fell off the wagon, if you will, but, you know,
just a few handful of times. And then, you know,
I'd realized that there was a spiritual side
to this as well, you know, and I'd prayed and
prayed and prayed, you know, and I had a very,
you know, most important conversation I ever
had is the one I had with Jesus and myself that
night, is the way I look at it. And that's when
I truly got the, you know, the courage and just
the willpower just to put that bottle down and
to face my, you know, face my demons head on,
you know. You know, there's a lot of folks who
talk about the moral injury that veterans in
combat experience as they think about, who am
I taking out? Why did the guy next to me have
this accident or this get in the way of the bullet
and I was just nearby or the grenade or whatever
it might be? So there is this moral component
to the injury and that's sort of the spiritual
aspect that you're talking about 100 % yeah,
I'm glad you actually brought that up because
in the book I talk about like, you know still
my unanswered question to this day is like Why
does you know that God let bad things happen
to good people and I I'm still searching for
that answer You know, I have some ideas what
it what it may be But uh, yeah, I asked that
question in the book and that was a lot of a
lot of dealing with that as well You know, it's
just talking to God constantly trying to figure
that part of life out, you know So we're talking
to Anthony Dwyer. He's an Air Force veteran.
Did his 20 years with special operations, aviation,
close air support. But one of the things he probably
never thought he'd put on his resume when he
was growing up in the Appalachian Mountains of
North Carolina is author. You have out now a
memoir called moon child a warrior's reckoning
with war addiction and purpose You've kind of
mentioned, you know, hey I started writing stuff
that sort of bleed on the page is therapy Talk
a little bit, you know writing a book's not easy
Putting yourself out. There's not easy. Tell
tell us a little bit about that aspect of the
journey Yeah, my friends always joke with me
that you know, you know North Carolina education,
you know Appalachia I still probably reading
right on a fifth grade level, somehow I have
a book. But yeah, so I'm surprised as you are
about that. But yeah, so basically, you know,
when I started writing all these things together
and get, you know, back up a little bit. So there's
a point in Air Force where you're applying for
your like a DD 214, right? And you walk out this
personnel is type flight, this office, you know,
and often in that office, when you when you leave,
you look back, there's no door handle on the
other side of that door. So it was sort of symbolic,
like, man, I can but I could never really get
back into this machine that keeps going, you
know? And so that was sort of, you know, I was
dealing with that as well, you know? And like
I said, every time that these thoughts would
come in my mind, these bad thoughts, these sad
thoughts, whatever the case was, I would write
them down, you know, whether it's a, you know,
like M &M with a napkin next to my, you know,
my nightstand, something like that or whatever
I had. And then finally I got the courage to
reach out to an editor, she's actually a war
journalist, Holly McKay, and through LinkedIn
and then... As soon as I did that, she responded
like right away. I remember I was in Walmart
and she responded and I'm texting and we set
up a phone call and she's like, yeah, she's like,
you know, I'll do the editing for you. And she
did a really good job of pulling those words
out of me and giving my words, just painting
that picture with my words and giving my words
teeth is what I like to say. And she in turn
recommended a publisher, Robbie Grayson, that
did like the hardware of the book, if you will.
And, you know, between that timeframe, next thing
you know, I have a book, you know. Well, they
say everybody's got a story and and and I think
that's probably true some are forged into fire
which yours certainly is and I think that the
title of this is really interesting because It's
reckoning with war which would you know kind
of maybe can all understand addiction. Maybe
we can all understand How that comes about and
purpose that's an interesting ad talk about why?
Finding that finding a new purpose After leaving
the military which was so clearly the purpose
for 20 years. Tell us about that battle Yes in
the purpose in the you know, the title even itself
like moon child, you know A lot of people asked
me about that and to me the moons really symbolic,
you know, you know, for example final AC 130
it was often my lighthouse, you know, and it
would highlight the terrain with MVG's and stuff
like that and And there's these moments when
everything is going against you, right? And it
could be the weather, the system, the emergency
procedures, all the communications, everything.
And I realized that that's the day where you
don't get to fall, you get to rise. And to me,
that moon burns the brightest on the darkest
nights. And that's when you get to really find
a lot out about yourself. So the moon's always
meant that symbolically a lot to me. Expand on
this, though, in terms of that purpose you had
to go find. Yeah, so like I said, when you leave,
that sense of purpose, all that hits you like
a tidal wave. Your sense of identity, your relevance
is gone. I'm not going to be able to find more
and make sure these guys get home with their
family on the gunship and stuff like that. And
so I was like, OK, well, right now I'm finding
the legacy to be to find those. You know those
moments in the calm with the family in the norm
things of life, you know, that's to me. That's
legacy now. That's that's my new purse being
the best dad. I could be, you know, husband.
I could be best author. I could be best best
friend. I could be to someone. You know, it's
easy to say that out loud and it makes sense
when you say it out loud, but it's harder to
live it, isn't it? It really is. Yeah, you know,
and it's you know, at the end of the day I can
either pick up my phone when someone calls or
I can't, you know, and when these you know it's
happened before, you know, I've actually. Recently
talked to God for legend force. I had to do that.
But uh, he's a better place for it now, you know
So it's it's definitely hit you, you know, and
those moments happen, you know paying it forward
and you know God will definitely give you that
chance Well, and part of this is that veterans
ethos where hey, I had your back over there I'm
gonna have your back over here and but it does
take reaching out. It does take answering the
phone doesn't it? 100 % yeah and and I always
tell people like you know as far as veterans
go like we we know each other really well right
so it's the ones we served with and you know
there's a difference saying hey how's it going
man or like hey how are you doing really man
because because we know each other's emotions
we know the looks on our faces what you know
you know each other that much and usually when
you're writing a book of some sort you've got
an audience in mind When you were writing moon
child a warrior's reckoning with the war addiction
and purpose And maybe your editor say hey you
got to get a little more focused on the audience
what audience were you writing to Really it was
anybody that's disturbed, you know, and or anybody
that's had some sort of addiction problem Those
two main pools of people, you know, and a lot
of these these uncommon jobs, you know It could
be a policeman or firefighter, you know these
very uncommon jobs were sometimes, unfortunately,
you know, you don't have to do these jobs, but
you see the worst thing that could happen to
someone. You know, these kind of memoirs, Anthony,
I also think help family members and friends
who maybe can't be in the shoes of the veteran
didn't see what the veteran has and doesn't understand
what that person, guy or gal may be going through.
It sort of helps to read your memoir and be able
to recognize some of that in somebody else you
might know and Maybe you've heard that from people
Yeah, you definitely see some common struggles
between like, you know, like paramedics and you
know, definitely, you know cops and firefighters,
you know jobs like that and where they've had
to you know face that trauma head -on, you know,
and I will say that you so calm was was really
good as far as like You know one of the soft
truths is what we call it is uh, you know humans
are more important than hardware And uh, I mean
those guys they live by that, you know and basically
they invented the uh The preservation of the
force and family where there's you get a physical
therapist You get a trainer and then you get
a psychologist, you know in your squadron oftenly
Yeah that again. I think the u .s military has
gotten much better over time with this and particularly
after the 20 years of Afghanistan recognizing.
Hey, it's uh, we got we got to help on the mental
health side of things, and you probably saw that
change over time. Oh, yeah, and I remember, you
know, believe it or not, Abram McCraven came
to the talk one night, and basically, it's when
the H model gunship was going away, and he said,
hey, he's like, listen, guys, like, we're slowing
down the ops tempo. It's not going to be what
we call a one -to -one dwell time. It was, you
know, sort of like 90 days there, 90 days back.
It would be like 90 days there, then like six
months off, you know? So, slowed it down, and
that's when he started seeing a lot of these
programs getting, you know, implemented and stuff
like that. So, what's next for the kid from North
Carolina, now living in New Mexico? What, you're
gonna write another book? What's the next step,
big guy? Yeah, I'm actually in the process of
writing one. It's basically tying the lessons
learned from fishing, believe it or not. Fireflies,
like back home, we have a lot of lightning bugs.
And then fishing and flying, so all those three
lessons. those three areas of lessons and then
time and into one and try to be as poetic as
I can with it, I guess. So, and also secondly,
I'm inventing a, an app where basically you speak
into this app and with, with AI like type, you
know, companion stuff, like it's going to soft
edit, you know, what the veteran or, you know,
first responder reads into it. And then they
would have the option to either get it edited
and published for either, if not free than very
cheap costs, you know, so. put it to the state,
and we'll see if this nonprofit gets stood up.
Well, that's great. Again, it's purpose along
with the family, beyond the family, gives you
additional purpose. We've been talking to Anthony
Dwyer, who wrote Moon Child, the roots and wings
of a United States Air Force combat special missions
aviator. You can get that book just about anywhere.
It'd make a great read for folks and gift for
folks. Anthony, on the way out here, any final
word for your fellow veterans? Yeah, I'd say
just keep going. Remember Henry Ford said that
an aircraft takes off against the wind, not with
it. So you're going to lift off, you know. Excellent.
I want to thank you for taking time to talk with
Veterans Radio today, Anthony. Thanks, everybody.
It's a pleasure to be here. I'm honored, Jim.
These are really interesting stories in my mind,
and that's why I was happy to bring them to you.
We've got a couple of guys who, you know, they're
the real deal. They spent the time in the sandbox.
They did their time in service. But they're also
willing to recognize after they get out, you
know, there were things they still had to do.
They had to work on themselves. if you will,
they had to go back into training to kind of
shed some of the problems that they had, re -mold
their personality, re -mold what their purpose
was, and as I say, shed some of the bad habits,
bad thoughts, things that were built up over
20 years. whether it's an addiction to the bottle
or to high adrenaline activities, parachuting,
motorcycle racing, whatever it might be, some
of that's kind of false purpose. You're trying
to replace the adrenaline rush you got in service
with some other adrenaline rush. Well, you can't
do that forever. And in both instances, they
finally woke up or accepted what people were
telling them, maybe their spouse, maybe their
parents, maybe their friends. Hey, you gotta
get some help. And both Joshua and Anthony were
ultimately strong enough to say, I'm gonna go
get that help. And it isn't a light switch, it
doesn't just happen. You know, Anthony kind of
mentioned it, but didn't dwell on it. Yeah, I
fell off the wagon a few times. You might fall
off two times, you might fall off 20 times. The
key is to get back on and recognize that you
have to give up some of those activities. I find
it interesting that in Anthony's case, you know,
he said every time I wanted to pick up a bottle,
I'd pick up a pen and write out my thoughts.
And that started becoming the basis of a warrior's
reckoning with war, addiction, and purpose. a
book is titled Moon Child. So if you've got a
friend out there, you've got a battle buddy,
you've got a family member who's battling, don't
count them out. Don't, if they fall off the wagon,
help them get back. Help them get back to maybe
the therapy they need or seeing a different psychologist,
whatever it might be. But I think it's important
that we don't give up on these guys. And I know
veterans will not give up on each other. Speaking
of groups that won't give up on you, I want to
point out the support we get from the Vietnam
Veterans of America and also local VSOs such
as the Vietnam Veterans of America, Charles S.
Kettle chapter 310 in Ann Arbor, the VFW, Graf
O 'Hara post 423, and the American Legion press
corps in post 46 in Ann Arbor. They keep us on
the air, they keep us grounded, they give us
great ideas. So this brings us to the end of
our time, and until you get back with Dale Throneberry
or myself on Veterans Radio or our podcast, which
you can always find on veteransradio .net, we
appreciate you. We appreciate what you've done
for the country and for keeping us honest, us
supported, and If you want to support us financially,
you can go to veteransradio .org, hit the donate
button. Both the individual donations as well
as corporate sponsorships are greatly appreciated.
When you've been on the air for 22 years, you're
always scraping by and making sure you can get
to the next spot. So until next time on Veterans
Radio, you are dismissed.