WEBVTT

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All across America and around the world, this

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is Veterans Radio. This is Veterans Radio. Good

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day. I'm Jim Fossone. I'm the Officer of the

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Deck today here on Veterans Radio and thanks

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for joining us. We've got some interesting stories

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can find us, but listen in to Veterans Radio

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Podcasts. We post something new every week, and

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you're gonna find it informative. We've got a

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couple of great programs for you today. We're

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gonna hear from veterans themselves, not historians,

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not authors, not researchers, but guys with boots

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on the ground. First, we're gonna talk to Joshua

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Shores, who... Chronicles his real battle In

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being a warrior and all the things he struggled

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with it's really a rock conversation and we're

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also going to talk to Anthony Dwyer who is was

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an Air Force gunner and again kind of a raw discussion

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about what it's like to be in combat. I think

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you're gonna find both of these guys have something

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to say that'll help you understand if you haven't

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been there and something that you can relate

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to if you have. We want to welcome to Veterans

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Radio today Joshua Shores who goes by Joshua,

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so I don't know. I'm not dissing him. I already

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asked him how he wanted to be called. Josh is

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a Marine. He served for... Just under four and

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a half years, yeah. Four and a half years in

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the Marine Corps. Came out as a Staff Sergeant.

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And there's been a lot of growth in the subsequent

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years. And he captured both his four years in

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the Marine Corps where he was both in Iraq and

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Afghanistan and his time afterwards, the transition

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and the issues with that in a book called Counting

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on Death, a Marine Infantryman's Journey from

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the Frontlines of Combat to the Fight for Peace.

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It's really well done, Josh. It really captured

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me in reading it. Nice job. Thank you for reading

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it. I appreciate that. Thank you for having me

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on. You know, you're a 19 -year -old kid and

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You say to yourself, I just need time in the

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Marine Corps. Yeah. Yeah, I was actually seven.

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I was 17 when I signed the papers, you know,

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and my dad was a Marine. My my mom's side of

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the family had mostly Marines. And I had my my

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dad's side grandpa and great grandpa both served

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in World War one and two. You know, and so serving

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was just something that felt right. And I'd always

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had an interest in. But it wasn't anything that

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was ever required. My parents weren't telling

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me you need to go join the military. They supported

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if I wanted to do the college route. But I knew

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that's what I wanted to do. And you grew up in

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the Midwest. Give us a little thumbnail of getting

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through high school and kind of what that upbringing

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was that you brought to the Marine Corps. Sure.

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So yeah, my dad is an entrepreneur. And so I

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grew up with that mindset around me. and helping

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him at his shops and stuff growing up. So, you

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know, a lot of the time growing up, spending

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it with my dad was helping him build whatever

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business he was doing just to be present and

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see how that worked. And in high school, I worked

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like three or four jobs at the same time juggling.

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You know, if it was summer, I was working more.

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Winter, I was working less. And I had a very

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steady girlfriend that is now my wife. Now, this

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is an important part of the story. He's been

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married now 20 years. They went together for

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a number of years in front of that. But there

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was a wrinkle in this as well. And I think this

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is, again, a kind of a common theme among military

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men in particular. Talk about that wrinkle. we

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stopped dating. So when I moved, I was a year

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ahead of her in school. And so when I moved out

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of town and went to the Marine Corps, that next

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year was her senior year in school. And we had

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dated at the beginning part of that, but, you

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know, life back home, being different from here,

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she was talking to guys, just hanging out and

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having fun. And I got jealous. And so I just

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started talking to, women out in California and

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So we decided to break up for I think it was

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like a three -month period in the fall I think

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if I was talking to her she wouldn't say we Decided

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to break up. Oh, no, it was me. Yeah, I think

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I think that's I think that's right and Yeah,

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and during that time it was just kind of like

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well, I'm free. I'm about to go to war so I'm

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just gonna do whatever I want and And then right

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before I left on my pre -deployment leave, I

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apologized for all my shenanigans and asked her

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if she wanted to start dating again. And after

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taking a good slap at one point, she took me

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back. So as I say, this is a story a lot of guys

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can relate to. So I'm sorry to put you on the

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spot, but I wanted to break it out. Because you

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are a young Marine, and they say, you know what?

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You're a rifleman. We're sending you over. So

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talk about your first deployment. There are two

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of them we're going to talk about. But this first

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one I think is where, as a young guy, your values,

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your morals, your compass is really getting whipped

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around. Yeah. So going there, so when I first

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got dropped to one five, I got assigned to alpha

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company, which was the, in a typical Marine Corps,

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you know, training workup, they have different

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assigned, you know, different assigned duties

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for every company. And ours was a boat company,

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which we didn't do any boat training when we

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first got there. They had done a little bit prior

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to us coming back before they went and did Fallujah.

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But it was all Iraq combat focused. And so when

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I got dropped there, it was with OIF -1 and OIF

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-2 vets who were very salty. And so there was

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a lot of expectations for myself and from them

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that we needed to be ready to go to combat for

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a third time for the unit, with that being my

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first time. And so there's just a lot of expectations

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of us young guys to be able to perform and not

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let the team down. And so we looked to, you know,

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we call them the senior Lance corporals. We looked

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to, you know, the seniors that had been there,

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the non -commissioned officers, officers, everything.

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And, you know, it was just a whirlwind of training.

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We got dropped right into like traffic training

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evolutions for combat. So the mindset was definitely,

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you know, we're going there to kill the enemy.

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And then I talk about it a little bit in the

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book, but I think the failure as a military force

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to try to transition us into a battle space that

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was more like, hey, we want to win hearts and

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minds. There was a bit of a failure because our

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mindset was just go there and kill. And Marines,

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that's what we should do. That's what Marine

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Corps is great at. And I think it was just kind

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of a weird time to be in there in 2005, right

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after all the big Pushes from Fallujah and the

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initial Ramadi combat so You find yourself in

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some hot situations that again sort of tested

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your your moral compass you want to talk about

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that a little bit yeah, so Combat is a interesting

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interesting thing to take part in in that you

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have you know your rules of engagement and when

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you're new to it, you're like, well, that's easy

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to remember. I'll do those things, you know,

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but then the situations present themselves and

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then the enemy's tactics because, you know, a

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good enemy would adapt to what our tactics are.

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And then they start figuring out what our rules

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of engagement are. And so they adapt their combat

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to, you know, maybe what we can't, how we can't

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respond. And it makes us feel very vulnerable.

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It was a very confusing place to be, especially

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for, I think, a lot of the older veterans because

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they had done, you know, the initial invasion,

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which was an obvious way to do combat. You're

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just going across and fighting an enemy. And

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then Fallujah, too, where they had dropped leaflets

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and made announcements that anyone left in the

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city is considered an enemy to now putting us

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in Ramadi where we're trying to mix in with the

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local populace. And so that mindset is a hard

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one to break, especially after you've experienced

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heavy combat and you know what happens when you

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let your guard down. So it was a very crazy place

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of like IEDs all the time getting blown up or

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hearing other units getting blown up, knowing

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people that are getting killed and wounded. And

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then also having, while you're going out on those

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missions and getting blown up, the goal of that

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maybe patrol was to shake hands and kiss babies

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and how do you do that after you're losing people

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and fighting cowards in a sense because a lot

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of the tactics were quick ambushes and then they

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run or they drop the weapon. One of the tests

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your group had in Ramadi was protecting what

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was called the government center where there

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would be U .S. troops there almost all the time,

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thus making it easy for the terrorists to go,

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those guys are going to be there. So we now know

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where to put our IEDs. And indeed, you lost some

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guys as a result of that. And again, that really

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threw based on the notes that you took while

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you were there that became part of the part of

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the book, counting on death. the loss of those

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members in an IED situation and a government

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center where you were constantly trying to protect

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it really was formative to your experiences.

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Yeah. And that's why, you know, I titled it coming

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on death because I feel like the psychological

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effect of the IED on everyone else that survives

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them is that I was blown up. three times in in

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Ramadi with IEDs and then we had like grenades

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I got I got blown up with separately in Helmand

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province but having that many different experiences

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with it it's easier if I found it easier and

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I think a lot of guys did just saying well I'm

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not going to come home from this so I'm just

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going to do what I need to to survive and I don't

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really care you know Pretty early on you you

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sort of said I can feel myself turning into a

00:13:19.269 --> 00:13:22.769
monster Mm -hmm. That's a pretty shocking statement

00:13:22.769 --> 00:13:27.190
Explain what you meant when you wrote those words

00:13:27.190 --> 00:13:33.289
in the book Sure, so The way I looked at the

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terrorists we were fighting as it was monsters

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before I went, you know, they they killed, you

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know thousands of people in 9 -11 and then the

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war up to that point and you know the beheadings

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of their own people or people of different religions

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in the countries that that we were in. You know

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I had this vision of what we were there to fight

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and in reality like on reflecting and writing

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the book when I first started this back in 2009

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or 10 whenever it was I started writing this.

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It was like well we were doing some of the similar

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things, not beheading people and all that, but

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there was this weird line that we were trying

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to stay on that I watched myself and watched

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others stray from just on the psychological effects

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of war and the rules that were there. And it

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wasn't until I wrote the book and then some of

00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:32.580
these podcasts where there was a realization

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that came out that Some of the reasons I felt

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so much of the guilt that weighed on me was we

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were trying to do what we thought our government

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and our people, our citizens in America wanted

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us to do. And at one point when I had that shooting

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that I got an inquiry or investigation on of

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that man, it was like, why am I getting investigated

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for doing something that we were approved to

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do? And now how does this war, like now what

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do I do? you know, I thought I was doing what

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everyone wanted me to do, what everyone trained

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me to do. And instead of nice, nice job, it was,

00:15:12.409 --> 00:15:14.289
why did you do that? And you know, you might

00:15:14.289 --> 00:15:18.570
go to prison for it, you know, and so it was

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a, as a 19 year old kid, you know, who's had,

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you know, pretty intense combat at that time

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and multiple blast exposure. It was like, I don't

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know what my brain was doing, but I was just

00:15:30.629 --> 00:15:34.659
in a survival mode. Yeah. And I think what captured

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me about your writing here was it's just so candid

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and raw about the emotions you were going through

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and what you were trying to process and in your

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brain, but also on a day to day basis of what

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you run into and see and the reaction from militants

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and civilians and how the hell you tell the difference

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between them. You know, you're the books candid

00:15:59.700 --> 00:16:01.720
enough to say hey at times I felt like I was

00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:05.700
a bully or a moron for what I was doing and and

00:16:05.700 --> 00:16:08.340
that's why this is not just a typical read it's

00:16:08.340 --> 00:16:13.879
really a good reflection, I think of the Questions

00:16:13.879 --> 00:16:17.600
everybody has when when put into those situations

00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:20.159
talk a little bit about the audience you were

00:16:20.159 --> 00:16:25.799
writing for I was writing for I Think mainly

00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:28.679
friends and families of vets Um, you know, a

00:16:28.679 --> 00:16:31.600
lot of the vets, the guys I served with, um,

00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:34.159
know the story, you know, and, and everyone,

00:16:34.179 --> 00:16:37.519
you know, I was talking with, um, uh, Kelly Thompson,

00:16:37.940 --> 00:16:39.960
the lieutenant re -kernel, the retired lieutenant

00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:41.759
colonel that wrote the forward for the book.

00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:44.740
And, um, and he's like, you know, he was in some

00:16:44.740 --> 00:16:46.220
of those firefights and he's like, yeah, did

00:16:46.220 --> 00:16:48.159
you remember this thing or this? And I was like,

00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:50.659
no, I don't. Um, I don't remember that happening.

00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:52.940
And it's just interesting that any one of those

00:16:52.940 --> 00:16:55.340
men that served alongside could write a book

00:16:55.340 --> 00:16:58.759
and it would be, you know, similar timeline,

00:16:58.759 --> 00:17:01.659
different events that they picked up on or witnessed.

00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:05.759
And so I was really writing it for from my view.

00:17:06.099 --> 00:17:08.900
And to go back to you saying it was very raw,

00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:14.420
I came to the the conclusion that I should just

00:17:14.420 --> 00:17:16.440
write it as real as I can, because a lot of the

00:17:16.440 --> 00:17:18.740
stuff that was weighing on me are the things

00:17:18.740 --> 00:17:21.319
that have led me to like suicide attempts and

00:17:21.319 --> 00:17:23.460
constantly thinking about killing myself. And

00:17:23.460 --> 00:17:26.720
and it's like, well, if I was willing to do that,

00:17:26.859 --> 00:17:29.240
why can't I just share a story and let's see

00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:31.940
what other people think and I think a lot of

00:17:31.940 --> 00:17:34.740
guys have that weighing on them and so if I have

00:17:34.740 --> 00:17:39.960
a book that family or friends can read that gives

00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:42.660
a little bit of insight into some of the things

00:17:42.660 --> 00:17:45.559
that that's might might be thinking or feeling

00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:47.380
even though we are very good at hiding it then

00:17:47.380 --> 00:17:49.599
that's a win in my book yeah it gives a little

00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:52.539
understanding of it you know I think you've accomplished

00:17:52.539 --> 00:17:54.680
that I think this is a book that should be given

00:17:54.680 --> 00:17:57.549
to friends and family spouses and loved ones

00:17:57.549 --> 00:18:00.569
to get a little peek inside what maybe their

00:18:00.569 --> 00:18:06.109
marine or army vet went through in combat. You

00:18:06.109 --> 00:18:10.950
have a section on sunflowers, my note says sunflowers

00:18:10.950 --> 00:18:12.369
and blood and I'm going to make you talk about

00:18:12.369 --> 00:18:14.509
it a little bit, but there's a line in it that

00:18:14.509 --> 00:18:18.490
says, in that particular section on page 62 that

00:18:18.490 --> 00:18:22.430
says, war turns the beautiful into the ghastly,

00:18:23.150 --> 00:18:27.609
the kind into the cruel. Damn, man. Were you

00:18:27.609 --> 00:18:32.609
an English major? What a great turn of phrase,

00:18:32.650 --> 00:18:36.269
but really it's a bit of a trigger. Talk about

00:18:36.269 --> 00:18:41.930
it for you. Yeah, so we lost five guys in an

00:18:41.930 --> 00:18:46.450
IED blast from second platoon and our platoon

00:18:46.450 --> 00:18:48.369
was tasked with doing the quick response force

00:18:48.369 --> 00:18:51.450
for that. And so we were out there very shortly

00:18:51.450 --> 00:18:55.309
after it happened and where I dismounted from

00:18:55.339 --> 00:18:58.240
um on my vehicle I had to walk through a it was

00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:02.160
like a small I don't know quarter acres or smaller

00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:06.200
lot of sunflowers um that were about knee high

00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:10.160
a little maybe mid -thigh high and um I walked

00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:12.079
through it and I remember just looking down at

00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:13.700
them as I'm walking trying to make sure there's

00:19:13.700 --> 00:19:16.339
not another IED or anything else that might be

00:19:16.339 --> 00:19:19.160
in there uh as I'm looking down I start noticing

00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:22.859
there's debris and then um blood splatter on

00:19:22.859 --> 00:19:26.109
the petals of these flowers and um and knowing

00:19:26.109 --> 00:19:28.549
that the smells and everything else that were

00:19:28.549 --> 00:19:33.470
there of the five guys that had died just forever

00:19:33.470 --> 00:19:39.029
ruined the sunflowers for me. I can't look at

00:19:39.029 --> 00:19:41.630
a sunflower and see anything beautiful. It's

00:19:41.630 --> 00:19:45.309
just like I see that. And again, that's one of

00:19:45.309 --> 00:19:48.109
those lessons for our family members because

00:19:48.109 --> 00:19:50.900
unless you express that nobody would know why

00:19:50.900 --> 00:19:52.799
that's a trigger, right? They would think, well,

00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:55.799
look, I bought you a bunch of wifery, walked

00:19:55.799 --> 00:19:57.960
through a beautiful flower shop and a bunch of

00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:00.920
sunflowers. We have to express that, hey, this

00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:04.720
triggers this memory for me, so that our friends

00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:09.880
and families know that and can work with that.

00:20:11.059 --> 00:20:13.180
But keep going back to family, because during

00:20:13.180 --> 00:20:15.420
the middle of this, you sort of got to a point

00:20:15.420 --> 00:20:19.359
where you're accepting death. and decide to end

00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:22.859
your relationship with your fiance? Yep. Yeah,

00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:26.700
I called off the marriage in the middle of it

00:20:26.700 --> 00:20:28.319
being planned because we were planning on getting

00:20:28.319 --> 00:20:35.819
married right when I returned from Iraq. I was

00:20:35.819 --> 00:20:37.819
numb to everything. This is after my friends

00:20:37.819 --> 00:20:41.019
had died. It was July 17th or 12th or something

00:20:41.019 --> 00:20:44.619
like that. I have a little black book that would

00:20:44.619 --> 00:20:48.740
be I've often thought it would be cool to publish

00:20:48.740 --> 00:20:52.740
or do it like some kind of a company document

00:20:52.740 --> 00:20:55.500
to the book because it's notes I took, but I

00:20:55.500 --> 00:20:57.039
stopped writing it at that point. I said, no,

00:20:57.039 --> 00:20:59.059
screw it. Why am I trying to even remember this?

00:20:59.099 --> 00:21:01.339
I will never forget it. Why am I writing notes?

00:21:01.740 --> 00:21:03.839
And at that point I said, I'm not going to make

00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:06.259
it home. I'll call off the wedding. And so I

00:21:06.259 --> 00:21:08.700
went into the phone trailer and called my wife

00:21:08.700 --> 00:21:11.859
like an hour before we were leaving for the government

00:21:11.859 --> 00:21:15.380
center, which is a four day post that we'd stand

00:21:15.380 --> 00:21:19.059
and I didn't have a chance to call or she wouldn't

00:21:19.059 --> 00:21:22.279
have a chance to communicate with me during that

00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:25.940
time so I kind of set myself up for failure by

00:21:25.940 --> 00:21:29.039
doing it right before we left and then my friends

00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:31.640
you know on post and at the government center

00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:34.119
convinced me that I was being an idiot and that

00:21:34.119 --> 00:21:38.289
I was going to make it back and so the day I

00:21:38.289 --> 00:21:40.549
got back, I called and said, I'm sorry, you know,

00:21:40.569 --> 00:21:42.950
and then of course it wasn't just an easy, um,

00:21:43.130 --> 00:21:46.369
Oh, that's okay. You know? Um, but I think that

00:21:46.369 --> 00:21:49.769
was her first instance of seeing that there were

00:21:49.769 --> 00:21:53.529
a lot of changes in me happening. Um, you know,

00:21:53.609 --> 00:21:55.569
you actually got to the point where you write

00:21:55.569 --> 00:21:58.910
that at one point you felt you didn't deserve

00:21:58.910 --> 00:22:04.329
to come home. Yeah. Yep. Like seeing the quality

00:22:04.329 --> 00:22:08.720
of, of men. that were surrounding me dying and

00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:11.819
in the way I upheld their you know them in my

00:22:11.819 --> 00:22:16.119
mind and you know it was like well why why does

00:22:16.119 --> 00:22:18.259
this three -time combat veteran have to go die

00:22:18.259 --> 00:22:22.380
it should be me but you know why this this person

00:22:22.380 --> 00:22:25.440
survived way more combat than me um you know

00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:27.619
i don't i shouldn't be here i'm not as good of

00:22:27.619 --> 00:22:30.380
a marine as them and again i think that's the

00:22:30.380 --> 00:22:33.789
sort of thing a lot of people think about Why

00:22:33.789 --> 00:22:36.509
I like the book so much as it expresses this

00:22:36.509 --> 00:22:41.730
and and makes us face it head -on But you do

00:22:41.730 --> 00:22:45.069
come out of Iraq you get home you come you get

00:22:45.069 --> 00:22:51.450
married in 2019. I believe it is 2005 yeah, October

00:22:51.450 --> 00:22:55.890
of 05 and and now it's you're getting close to

00:22:55.890 --> 00:22:58.029
the tour being up to your real list What do you

00:22:58.029 --> 00:23:03.369
do? What do you do? Have you proven everything

00:23:03.369 --> 00:23:05.869
you wanted to prove to yourself a lot a lot of

00:23:05.869 --> 00:23:08.269
stuff going on in your head, isn't there? Yeah.

00:23:08.609 --> 00:23:11.289
Yeah, and I had actually So my second deployment

00:23:11.289 --> 00:23:14.329
after I got back was to the 31st Mew where we

00:23:14.329 --> 00:23:18.470
did on like a Southeast Asia Float basically

00:23:18.470 --> 00:23:20.609
and we went to Okinawa China in the Philippines

00:23:20.609 --> 00:23:23.369
and so there's no combat in that one and after

00:23:23.369 --> 00:23:26.819
I came off that they said, hey, we're starting

00:23:26.819 --> 00:23:29.700
up this new organization or this new one had

00:23:29.700 --> 00:23:31.660
just been started up called MARSOC, Marine Special

00:23:31.660 --> 00:23:34.960
Operations Command. And they were looking for

00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:38.900
infantry, combat infantry volunteers at the time

00:23:38.900 --> 00:23:42.299
from one five as they were already like pulling

00:23:42.299 --> 00:23:44.059
guys from recon and they had stood down force

00:23:44.059 --> 00:23:46.519
recon to make MARSOC. So a lot of those guys

00:23:46.519 --> 00:23:49.819
just kind of went right to there. And so I talked

00:23:49.819 --> 00:23:51.299
with a couple of my friends and said, Hey, do

00:23:51.299 --> 00:23:55.079
you want to extend our time? to go do MARSOC

00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:57.500
and it sounded like a cool thing to attempt to

00:23:57.500 --> 00:24:00.400
do. And so I talked to my wife and said, hey,

00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:03.160
what are your thoughts if I, instead of getting

00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:05.079
out, which I was supposed to do, what if I extend

00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:07.359
my time and go to Marine Special Operations?

00:24:08.339 --> 00:24:11.220
And she, we talked about it and she understood

00:24:11.220 --> 00:24:12.839
that I felt like I needed to do that. And especially

00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:15.359
because I assumed that most likely we'd be going

00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:17.960
to combat and I had combat experience that I

00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:20.000
felt would be wasteful just to get out of the

00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:22.640
Marine Corps with. Um, you know, and, and now

00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:24.460
having been a, I was a corporal at the time,

00:24:24.460 --> 00:24:27.220
a senior corporal, I just felt it was my duty

00:24:27.220 --> 00:24:30.480
to, to pass some of that on to younger guys.

00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:34.099
So, um, or people, maybe that, that hadn't been

00:24:34.099 --> 00:24:38.339
the combat. And so we extended and I went through

00:24:38.339 --> 00:24:42.279
the Marsoc, um, all that training and ended up

00:24:42.279 --> 00:24:44.579
having to send my wife home during that, because

00:24:44.579 --> 00:24:46.640
we just never saw each other. It was so busy

00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:50.140
training. And, um, And then that led us to going

00:24:50.140 --> 00:24:55.420
to Afghanistan. And how long was that tour? That

00:24:55.420 --> 00:25:00.039
was December through April. And before that,

00:25:00.099 --> 00:25:02.440
we went to actually the Philippines for a month

00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:05.460
and lived there. And we were doing foreign internal

00:25:05.460 --> 00:25:09.079
defense training. So we cross -trained their

00:25:09.079 --> 00:25:12.400
Philippine drug enforcement agents and some of

00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:16.640
their special forces. It was NBI, the National

00:25:16.640 --> 00:25:19.059
Bureau of Investigation for the Philippines.

00:25:20.039 --> 00:25:21.839
So we did a month -long training program for

00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:25.160
them, where I was the chief instructor there,

00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:29.039
and that was an awesome experience, too. 76 students,

00:25:29.160 --> 00:25:33.019
so. The book talks a lot about coming home, too.

00:25:33.220 --> 00:25:37.359
And again, it's candid. It's what you want to

00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:39.640
understand what's going on in a guy's head and

00:25:39.640 --> 00:25:42.259
help get a look at what other vets may be doing.

00:25:44.449 --> 00:25:49.329
You write, I lost track of my soul and when I

00:25:49.329 --> 00:25:52.569
accepted my death, I became the enemy. I turned

00:25:52.569 --> 00:25:54.970
into a terrorist in a foreign land and displayed

00:25:54.970 --> 00:25:59.829
little mercy toward my opponents. All that's

00:25:59.829 --> 00:26:02.849
rolling around in your head as you get out. And

00:26:02.849 --> 00:26:06.890
you describe, you write, one word sums up my

00:26:06.890 --> 00:26:09.130
experience of leaving the active duty military

00:26:09.130 --> 00:26:15.930
and returning home. Loneliness. That's a lot

00:26:15.930 --> 00:26:18.670
to carry. And it's a lot to carry by yourself.

00:26:20.589 --> 00:26:24.829
How did you go through that phase? I drank a

00:26:24.829 --> 00:26:29.950
lot and, and isolated myself. So I told you this

00:26:29.950 --> 00:26:33.569
book is candid and Josh Shores is nothing but

00:26:33.569 --> 00:26:36.789
candid. Again, a lot of guys do that. How do

00:26:36.789 --> 00:26:39.690
you keep going through that and not ending up,

00:26:39.690 --> 00:26:45.839
you know, on the slab? Yeah, I just, I think

00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:49.440
honestly, there was something that happened along

00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:52.440
the way there. My brother -in -law died in a

00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:56.119
car accident right after I got out, like three

00:26:56.119 --> 00:26:58.539
months after I got out of the Marine Corps. And

00:26:58.539 --> 00:27:02.299
so my wife and I had a lot of optimism in what

00:27:02.299 --> 00:27:04.359
life was gonna be while I'm still going through

00:27:04.359 --> 00:27:06.599
stuff. And so when my brother -in -law died,

00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:10.000
it was like, well, now that my rock, my wife

00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:14.240
has been patient with me and supportive, is falling

00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:17.960
apart. It's like, do I be, it's like, you know,

00:27:17.960 --> 00:27:19.859
you have to make a decision. And my decision

00:27:19.859 --> 00:27:23.259
is I want this family to work. And so, you know,

00:27:23.259 --> 00:27:25.960
I just kind of put walls up and, and then it

00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:27.900
was like, how can I be supportive of my wife?

00:27:27.940 --> 00:27:29.680
You know, that's the most important thing at

00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:32.559
this point. And so it kind of had to put a lot

00:27:32.559 --> 00:27:34.880
of stuff aside. And at that point I said, well,

00:27:34.880 --> 00:27:39.299
I can't, I'm having trouble doing this. You know,

00:27:39.299 --> 00:27:41.180
I need help. And so I went to the VA and just

00:27:41.180 --> 00:27:45.259
said, I need help. And they started me in a program

00:27:45.259 --> 00:27:50.079
there. So at the end of the day, the program,

00:27:50.279 --> 00:27:52.380
it was supposed to be just me in a meeting. And

00:27:52.380 --> 00:27:54.720
I said, because of the situation with my wife

00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:58.740
and I and her brother passing away, I said, I

00:27:58.740 --> 00:28:02.000
can't do this alone. I can't do all this talking

00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:04.740
at these sessions and then come home and feel

00:28:04.740 --> 00:28:07.539
the way I do without my wife understanding what's

00:28:07.539 --> 00:28:09.039
going on. She doesn't have the patience for it.

00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:11.230
It's not fair to her. and so I asked if she could

00:28:11.230 --> 00:28:13.109
come in on the sessions and they said well we

00:28:13.109 --> 00:28:15.730
can't do couples therapy and I said so you'd

00:28:15.730 --> 00:28:17.789
rather just me kill myself or do something else

00:28:17.789 --> 00:28:20.109
than then have my wife sit in with me is that

00:28:20.109 --> 00:28:21.890
is that where we're at with this it's ridiculous

00:28:21.890 --> 00:28:24.029
and they said well let's we'll just have her

00:28:24.029 --> 00:28:26.829
sit in and it ended up being something that was

00:28:26.829 --> 00:28:29.630
kind of a couples therapy and it saved myself

00:28:29.630 --> 00:28:33.190
and my marriage and um and it was a lot better

00:28:33.190 --> 00:28:36.609
for my wife to be sitting in and hearing me talk

00:28:36.609 --> 00:28:39.730
about the things that were weighing on me versus

00:28:39.730 --> 00:28:42.789
me going to the session and then driving the

00:28:42.789 --> 00:28:45.049
45 minutes back home and not wanting to talk

00:28:45.049 --> 00:28:48.490
about anything. You call out in the book through

00:28:48.490 --> 00:28:51.470
our almost year -long weekly sessions, Dr. Laura

00:28:51.470 --> 00:28:53.789
gave both of us the tools to make it through

00:28:53.789 --> 00:28:57.609
relationship and personal issues. And I want

00:28:57.609 --> 00:29:00.250
to highlight, because a lot of folks, a lot of

00:29:00.250 --> 00:29:01.950
guys think, well, I'm not going to the VA, they

00:29:01.950 --> 00:29:04.750
don't care, blah, blah, blah. But you call out

00:29:04.750 --> 00:29:08.910
that the mental health therapy that sessions

00:29:08.910 --> 00:29:13.670
you got from the VA made the difference. It's

00:29:13.670 --> 00:29:18.430
work. You write somewhere. It's hard work. But

00:29:18.430 --> 00:29:20.670
don't cut off that avenue just because you think

00:29:20.670 --> 00:29:22.609
those people don't care. They care, don't they?

00:29:23.269 --> 00:29:24.809
Yeah, then they do. And that's the thing is,

00:29:24.809 --> 00:29:27.970
from what my experience has been with the VA

00:29:27.970 --> 00:29:32.529
system, at least, is they're not going to reach

00:29:32.529 --> 00:29:34.549
out to every vet and say, how are you doing?

00:29:34.650 --> 00:29:36.849
They're just not, it's just impossible. And it's

00:29:36.849 --> 00:29:41.069
a, it's a governmental run program that supports

00:29:41.069 --> 00:29:44.049
veterans, but you as a veteran have to look at

00:29:44.049 --> 00:29:46.470
yourself and say, I need this help or it's time

00:29:46.470 --> 00:29:48.369
now, or take the cues from your family. And that

00:29:48.369 --> 00:29:49.789
was another thing that like, there were cues

00:29:49.789 --> 00:29:51.450
from my family members of like, do you need help?

00:29:51.549 --> 00:29:53.069
Maybe you should stop drinking as much. And,

00:29:53.329 --> 00:29:56.809
you know, and so like, you have to be aware enough

00:29:56.809 --> 00:30:00.730
and, and willing enough to help yourself by reaching

00:30:00.730 --> 00:30:02.450
out and being persistent. You have to be your

00:30:02.450 --> 00:30:05.210
own advocate. If they're not doing a good enough

00:30:05.210 --> 00:30:07.230
job, you need to be the squeaky wheel that gets

00:30:07.230 --> 00:30:11.329
the grease. And yeah, I had to go do some of

00:30:11.329 --> 00:30:15.130
those things and it was tough at first, but once

00:30:15.130 --> 00:30:17.769
I got the care, it wasn't shitty care. And I

00:30:17.769 --> 00:30:18.970
think that's why I hear from a lot of vets is

00:30:18.970 --> 00:30:22.730
like, they don't care. In my experience, after

00:30:22.730 --> 00:30:26.009
I started the program and now even still, I still

00:30:26.009 --> 00:30:29.910
see a therapist, at least quarterly, if not more

00:30:29.910 --> 00:30:34.150
when I'm struggling. And that's done through

00:30:34.150 --> 00:30:37.730
the community care from the VA. And I had to

00:30:37.730 --> 00:30:39.230
be an advocate to get there. And I had to say

00:30:39.230 --> 00:30:42.210
to myself that I need it. You have to be able

00:30:42.210 --> 00:30:44.029
to say that. And that's a big step. And it takes

00:30:44.029 --> 00:30:47.150
a lot because it's not weak, but you don't want

00:30:47.150 --> 00:30:49.829
to come off as weak. Pretty good advice from

00:30:49.829 --> 00:30:55.430
Josh Shores. You really have to be your own advocate,

00:30:55.430 --> 00:30:58.150
and we've talked we preach that really on veterans

00:30:58.150 --> 00:31:02.250
radio, so Here's another great example of a warrior

00:31:02.250 --> 00:31:04.990
who's strong enough to say I need help and reaches

00:31:04.990 --> 00:31:07.509
out and gets it Let's have a few more words from

00:31:07.509 --> 00:31:10.549
our sponsors, and then we're going to hear from

00:31:10.549 --> 00:31:14.369
Anthony Dwyer about his time as an Air Force

00:31:14.369 --> 00:31:18.170
gunner helping out the guys on the ground the

00:31:18.170 --> 00:31:21.250
army folks who loved him when they were around

00:31:21.829 --> 00:31:24.390
Military veterans touch everyone's life. I'm

00:31:24.390 --> 00:31:26.289
guessing right now you're thinking of a veteran,

00:31:26.650 --> 00:31:29.859
a close friend, relative. Maybe it's you. Even

00:31:29.859 --> 00:31:32.319
the toughest of us sometimes need help but don't

00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:34.339
know where to turn for support. You don't need

00:31:34.339 --> 00:31:36.200
special training to help a veteran in your life.

00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:39.079
Even small actions can make a world of difference.

00:31:39.460 --> 00:31:41.640
If you know a veteran in crisis, please call

00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:46.799
the Veterans Crisis Line 800 -273 -8255. 800

00:31:46.799 --> 00:31:50.759
-273 -8255. A message from the U .S. Department

00:31:50.759 --> 00:31:53.549
of Veterans Affairs. If you have a VA claim denied

00:31:53.549 --> 00:31:55.750
by the Board of Veterans' Appeals, contact Legal

00:31:55.750 --> 00:32:00.369
Help for Veterans at 1 -800 -693 -4800. They're

00:32:00.369 --> 00:32:02.490
experts in handling cases before the U .S. Court

00:32:02.490 --> 00:32:04.509
of Appeals for Veterans' claims. Their number

00:32:04.509 --> 00:32:08.710
again, 1 -800 -693 -4800. We want to welcome

00:32:08.710 --> 00:32:12.950
to Veterans Radio today, Anthony Dwyer. You might

00:32:12.950 --> 00:32:15.250
hear a little of his North Carolina twang in

00:32:15.250 --> 00:32:19.589
there. Anthony, welcome to Veterans Radio. Thanks

00:32:19.589 --> 00:32:21.250
for having me, Jim. It's a pleasure to be here.

00:32:21.470 --> 00:32:23.950
Well, you spent 21 years in the Air Force. You

00:32:23.950 --> 00:32:27.130
got some wisdom to pass along, but let's start

00:32:27.130 --> 00:32:29.549
with how did a nice kid like you from North Carolina

00:32:29.549 --> 00:32:32.789
end up in the Air Force? Yeah, so my senior year

00:32:32.789 --> 00:32:35.470
in high school, I don't know, roughly six months

00:32:35.470 --> 00:32:37.970
left of high school left there. My dad, you know,

00:32:37.970 --> 00:32:39.869
gave me the typical dad talk of, you know, you're

00:32:39.869 --> 00:32:42.069
about to be a grown man, like it's time to either

00:32:42.069 --> 00:32:44.910
get a job, go to college or get out. And I had

00:32:44.910 --> 00:32:47.049
talked to a Navy recruiter and he was talking

00:32:47.049 --> 00:32:49.109
about being on a boat for six months and then

00:32:49.109 --> 00:32:51.099
an Army recruiter. I was like, you know what,

00:32:51.099 --> 00:32:52.839
I'm gonna talk to my dad about sort of the quality

00:32:52.839 --> 00:32:54.339
of life of the Air Force. He was in for like

00:32:54.339 --> 00:32:57.880
four years down in Tampa, McDill. And this is

00:32:57.880 --> 00:32:59.440
way before I was born. And you know, it's talked

00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:01.839
about the good child halls, the TDY and the golf

00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:06.180
clubs and stuff like that, right? And again,

00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:08.440
so I was like, yeah, I'm gonna do the Air Force.

00:33:08.460 --> 00:33:10.559
And I was on delayed enlistment program for,

00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:13.579
you know, about that six months. And yeah, July

00:33:13.579 --> 00:33:16.859
18th of 2000, there I was on my flight to San

00:33:16.859 --> 00:33:19.519
Antonio, Texas to basic training. Well, all those

00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:22.500
jokes about the Air Force life, a lot of them

00:33:22.500 --> 00:33:29.740
are true. So, as I said, you're in for 21 years,

00:33:29.900 --> 00:33:32.460
got out as a tech sergeant in E6, now living

00:33:32.460 --> 00:33:36.700
in New Mexico, but give us a thumbnail of what

00:33:36.700 --> 00:33:39.960
your service was about because I'm not sure we've

00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:43.720
ever had a special operations aviation guy on

00:33:43.720 --> 00:33:46.880
veterans radio and a lot of the army pukes don't

00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:50.650
have any idea what you guys did. Yeah, so I was

00:33:50.650 --> 00:33:53.529
a special missions aviator and uh I flew in the

00:33:53.529 --> 00:33:55.690
uh started out flying on the uh there in 2010

00:33:55.690 --> 00:33:57.150
it was about midway through my career I started

00:33:57.150 --> 00:33:59.529
flying but uh yeah the 16th Special Operations

00:33:59.529 --> 00:34:02.069
Squadron on the uh AC -130 gunship the H -Model

00:34:02.069 --> 00:34:04.509
Spectre gunship um you know and that the mission

00:34:04.509 --> 00:34:06.849
of that the gunship as a whole is to provide

00:34:06.849 --> 00:34:09.070
that uh close air support for your your unconventional

00:34:09.070 --> 00:34:11.269
forces you know I like to call them super ninjas

00:34:11.269 --> 00:34:13.409
you know give them that close air support and

00:34:13.559 --> 00:34:16.659
And then also flew on the HA -60G Pave Hawk there

00:34:16.659 --> 00:34:18.940
for about four or five years out at Moody Air

00:34:18.940 --> 00:34:21.739
Force Base as a, you know, the 41st Rescue Squadron

00:34:21.739 --> 00:34:24.099
as a spawn. What a special missions aviator is,

00:34:24.099 --> 00:34:27.860
is, you know, back in 2012, 2013, the Air Force

00:34:27.860 --> 00:34:30.579
combined the aerial gunner, the loadmaster and

00:34:30.579 --> 00:34:32.539
the flight engineer career field made a really

00:34:32.539 --> 00:34:34.219
like a Swiss Army knife in the sky, if you think

00:34:34.219 --> 00:34:36.340
about it that way, sort of a jack of all trades

00:34:36.340 --> 00:34:38.800
and all that. But yeah, it was a pleasure and

00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:40.440
honor to fly and fight beside the best men and

00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:44.630
women in the Air Force, you know. Well, we joke

00:34:44.630 --> 00:34:47.150
about it a little bit to the army guys in particular

00:34:47.150 --> 00:34:49.429
about the Air Force But they are sure glad to

00:34:49.429 --> 00:34:51.409
have you for that close air support weren't they?

00:34:52.309 --> 00:34:54.510
Yeah, yeah, you know a lot you know a lot of

00:34:54.510 --> 00:34:56.429
times I worked with the being overheaded the

00:34:56.429 --> 00:34:58.570
Rangers and the green brace stuff like that And

00:34:58.570 --> 00:35:00.329
there were some nights you know not when we didn't

00:35:00.329 --> 00:35:02.130
even shoot you know We're just our noise signature

00:35:02.130 --> 00:35:04.329
would would keep the enemy at bay if you will

00:35:04.329 --> 00:35:05.869
and those guys could get some you know a few

00:35:05.869 --> 00:35:09.730
hours of shutout and stuff like that and and

00:35:09.730 --> 00:35:15.670
tell us where your tours took you in terms of

00:35:15.670 --> 00:35:19.789
Overseas missions Yeah, I went to a Bagram multiple

00:35:19.789 --> 00:35:22.530
times. I think in the book I call it the Bagram

00:35:22.530 --> 00:35:25.429
routine there and as a flyer, you know, it's

00:35:25.429 --> 00:35:27.650
all about your flight hours so you can basically

00:35:27.650 --> 00:35:30.929
get 335 hours in 90 days and if you hit that

00:35:30.929 --> 00:35:32.389
or see that I have to set you down, you know

00:35:32.389 --> 00:35:34.869
for a little bit and so we managed that and then

00:35:34.869 --> 00:35:36.329
basically three months there and three months

00:35:36.329 --> 00:35:39.349
back was the the ops tempo there for for Bagram

00:35:39.349 --> 00:35:45.400
and then 2014 -2015 the ISIS, you know threat

00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:48.619
happened and basically we went to at that point

00:35:48.619 --> 00:35:50.679
Kuwait and then flew over, you know Iraq and

00:35:50.679 --> 00:35:53.619
Syria and Basically was type three like controlled

00:35:53.619 --> 00:35:55.820
air support. We have like a JTAC at that time

00:35:55.820 --> 00:35:57.679
anyway with a with like a general on that You

00:35:57.679 --> 00:35:59.820
know a talk or whatnot and basically clearing

00:35:59.820 --> 00:36:02.059
you to engage on the on the ISIS enemy and stuff

00:36:02.059 --> 00:36:04.940
like that And then in rescue I went to East Africa

00:36:04.940 --> 00:36:10.530
would say that twice there These are not Guess

00:36:10.530 --> 00:36:13.309
what I would call normal missions were they?

00:36:13.750 --> 00:36:15.570
No, no definitely not you know there's I tell

00:36:15.570 --> 00:36:17.769
people there's really two types of AC 130 to

00:36:17.769 --> 00:36:20.449
gunship missions where There so back to even

00:36:20.449 --> 00:36:22.730
2011 we were not we had pagers man And like they

00:36:22.730 --> 00:36:24.809
would you know pages doesn't like an alert type

00:36:24.809 --> 00:36:26.869
thing and it would either one let you know you

00:36:26.869 --> 00:36:28.730
had troops in contact so you had to launch within

00:36:28.730 --> 00:36:30.650
like things like 15 to 30 minutes be off the

00:36:30.650 --> 00:36:34.079
ground and then You had the other ones which

00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:35.659
would basically like somebody there's like direct

00:36:35.659 --> 00:36:37.820
action stuff going on the ground like You know

00:36:37.820 --> 00:36:39.599
could have seals kicking doors down green braids

00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:42.280
doing fed type stuff And yeah, so there's basically

00:36:42.280 --> 00:36:44.500
that that two types of missions and and one thing

00:36:44.500 --> 00:36:47.019
I always loved about Whether I should or not

00:36:47.019 --> 00:36:48.800
shouldn't you know these are all jobs You really

00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:50.360
don't have to do but the end of the day like

00:36:50.360 --> 00:36:51.659
you know there'd be ticks You know where those

00:36:51.659 --> 00:36:53.400
guys been shot at all day, and we would get like

00:36:53.659 --> 00:36:55.699
you know, miles away and start picking the enemy

00:36:55.699 --> 00:36:57.380
up with our sensors and they just run like bees,

00:36:57.480 --> 00:36:59.940
you know, hearing our four fans of freedom there

00:36:59.940 --> 00:37:02.380
and they knew at that point, you know, it's over

00:37:02.380 --> 00:37:05.380
for them. So it was to be that relevant, you

00:37:05.380 --> 00:37:07.880
know, that sense of relevance, I guess, you know,

00:37:07.880 --> 00:37:10.219
as far as a gunship guys, that was my whole why

00:37:10.219 --> 00:37:11.940
all those years and, you know, making sure those

00:37:11.940 --> 00:37:13.739
guys got home to their family. That was everything

00:37:13.739 --> 00:37:18.599
to me. Yeah, that close air support and, you

00:37:18.599 --> 00:37:21.679
know, in both of those instances, whether it's

00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:27.750
Afghanistan Africa, Iraq. The Air Force has air

00:37:27.750 --> 00:37:30.170
superiority. You want to talk about that a little

00:37:30.170 --> 00:37:33.150
bit? Yeah, as far as like the air to air stuff,

00:37:33.269 --> 00:37:34.829
you know, that no one's really going to test

00:37:34.829 --> 00:37:38.349
us at least not in that environment. You know,

00:37:38.349 --> 00:37:40.730
even in near period argue that, you know, they

00:37:40.730 --> 00:37:43.210
wouldn't even stand a smidge of a chance with

00:37:43.210 --> 00:37:45.530
us. You know what I mean? And as far as the close

00:37:45.530 --> 00:37:47.389
air support, there's, you know, there's a few

00:37:47.389 --> 00:37:49.530
Kings there. There's the AC 130 gunship within

00:37:49.530 --> 00:37:52.329
the A -10 and then sometimes even the Apache,

00:37:52.329 --> 00:37:59.300
you know. Well, all that combat experience while

00:37:59.300 --> 00:38:02.460
you're up in the air, you're not down on the

00:38:02.460 --> 00:38:08.579
ground, it still has an impact on the airmen

00:38:08.579 --> 00:38:11.159
who's supplying that support and knowing what's

00:38:11.159 --> 00:38:15.920
going on in the ground. How did you internalize

00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:19.820
that situation? Yeah, so, you know, I always

00:38:19.820 --> 00:38:22.480
say it's not what you do in flying in life that

00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:24.440
haunches what you don't do, you know, and I'm,

00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:26.980
you know, on the, uh, I was on a Casavac mission

00:38:26.980 --> 00:38:29.559
when I was on rescue helicopters in East Africa

00:38:29.559 --> 00:38:31.599
there. I think it was, uh, eight, June of 2018.

00:38:31.699 --> 00:38:33.980
And, um, you know, we got to see the best side

00:38:33.980 --> 00:38:35.960
of combat search and rescue that day where we,

00:38:35.960 --> 00:38:38.519
you know, got to save five lives and then one,

00:38:38.519 --> 00:38:40.349
one Eagle, one American when we got back. on

00:38:40.349 --> 00:38:42.449
the operating table he passed away. So that one

00:38:42.449 --> 00:38:44.650
sticks with you, you know, and I'd be lying if

00:38:44.650 --> 00:38:46.349
I didn't say, if I wasn't still dealing with

00:38:46.349 --> 00:38:48.829
that, but I was able to get a, you know, through

00:38:48.829 --> 00:38:51.090
you so -called like a prolonged exposure therapy

00:38:51.090 --> 00:38:53.809
with a psychiatrist. And part of that, what that

00:38:53.809 --> 00:38:54.949
means really is you're getting comfortable being

00:38:54.949 --> 00:38:56.309
uncomfortable telling your story, sort of like

00:38:56.309 --> 00:38:58.050
you're doing, we're doing right here. And you

00:38:58.050 --> 00:38:59.710
write that story out over and over and over,

00:39:00.309 --> 00:39:02.869
which really led to the book, you know, because

00:39:02.869 --> 00:39:04.590
she's like, you should tell your story. Someone

00:39:04.590 --> 00:39:06.409
told me that a hundred times and I never did,

00:39:06.429 --> 00:39:09.099
but once I got out and the dust settles, I was

00:39:09.099 --> 00:39:10.800
like you know maybe someone could get help if

00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:13.139
they read this and and to me that's what it was

00:39:13.139 --> 00:39:15.179
all about just paying it forward and also to

00:39:15.179 --> 00:39:16.659
show the rest of America this is what goes on

00:39:16.659 --> 00:39:19.260
when you're sleeping. Well and I think that's

00:39:19.260 --> 00:39:23.119
part of it is there's all kinds of ways to kind

00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:26.719
of get yourself through this and not everything

00:39:26.719 --> 00:39:30.699
works for everybody. Talk a little bit about

00:39:30.699 --> 00:39:34.260
you know sort of and I'm only asking you do this

00:39:34.260 --> 00:39:36.579
not because I'm you know, want to deal in tragedy

00:39:36.579 --> 00:39:39.840
here, but I want to deal in reality. And there'll

00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:43.000
be a lot of family members and veterans listening

00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:46.320
in on Veterans Radio who don't maybe understand

00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:53.320
the lows and where you were at and then how the,

00:39:53.780 --> 00:39:56.300
it takes a few attempts to get out, right? I

00:39:56.300 --> 00:39:58.639
mean, you don't transition through this in a

00:39:58.639 --> 00:40:02.389
weekend. So tell us about the journey. Yes, so

00:40:02.389 --> 00:40:05.309
I went back to gunships for my racing with 30

00:40:05.309 --> 00:40:07.190
is my last two years here at Cannon Air Force

00:40:07.190 --> 00:40:09.969
Base and and I wanted to deploy on my last or

00:40:09.969 --> 00:40:12.809
my 20 year mark was with July 18th of 2020 as

00:40:12.809 --> 00:40:15.909
my 20 year mark and went to Iraq there and and

00:40:15.909 --> 00:40:17.889
I remember it was so slow, you know, we didn't

00:40:17.889 --> 00:40:20.130
really shoot it off for those 90 days at that

00:40:20.130 --> 00:40:22.070
point. And I just remember thinking like I could

00:40:22.070 --> 00:40:24.690
see the end of it, you know, being near of my

00:40:24.690 --> 00:40:26.889
career. I'm at 20 years, you know, that sense

00:40:26.889 --> 00:40:29.869
of purpose, that sense of my identity was like

00:40:29.869 --> 00:40:33.329
it was gone, you know, and. I got back and I

00:40:33.329 --> 00:40:35.630
hit the retirement button in that whole year

00:40:35.630 --> 00:40:38.369
time frame. I really developed a really bad drinking

00:40:38.369 --> 00:40:40.349
problem to be honest with you. What started as

00:40:40.349 --> 00:40:42.110
a weekend drinking habit turned into at least

00:40:42.110 --> 00:40:45.289
a pint a night. So my wife basically gave me

00:40:45.289 --> 00:40:48.010
the ultimatum of, hey, it's either the bottle

00:40:48.010 --> 00:40:50.429
or me and your daughter. And I'm, thank God,

00:40:50.809 --> 00:40:54.269
very thankful that God led me to choose my family

00:40:54.269 --> 00:40:57.849
at that point. So she was like, you need to get

00:40:57.849 --> 00:40:59.449
help. And some other people sort of noticed it

00:40:59.449 --> 00:41:01.190
as well. And I went and got help. And that's

00:41:01.190 --> 00:41:02.809
when I saw the psychiatrist and started that

00:41:02.809 --> 00:41:05.329
journey. And then what would happen, every time

00:41:05.329 --> 00:41:07.860
I wanted to... to drink, you know, I'd pick up

00:41:07.860 --> 00:41:09.559
a pen and I'd write something down, you know,

00:41:10.079 --> 00:41:11.780
and wake up in the morning and try to make the

00:41:11.780 --> 00:41:13.760
sense of this sort of Charlotte's word, you know,

00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:15.679
web of emotional words and just make sense of

00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:17.639
two decades of word, you know, all those feelings.

00:41:17.820 --> 00:41:20.219
So it's therapeutic in a way if you just bleed

00:41:20.219 --> 00:41:22.739
it on the page, get it out because a lot of people

00:41:22.739 --> 00:41:24.360
have the similar struggle that sells, you know,

00:41:24.440 --> 00:41:26.599
sense of identity, a sense of relevance, you

00:41:26.599 --> 00:41:30.719
know, when that's gone. And a lot of guys face

00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:33.739
that same problem and the family says it's us

00:41:33.739 --> 00:41:38.679
or them. Again, not maybe a switch you can flip

00:41:38.679 --> 00:41:42.000
like a light and you decide right away you're

00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:45.099
going to transition, you're going to stop doing

00:41:45.099 --> 00:41:48.139
whatever the addictive or detrimental activity

00:41:48.139 --> 00:41:54.059
is. When she gave you the ultimatum, did it take

00:41:54.059 --> 00:41:57.320
you a while to say I'm there or was it a lightning

00:41:57.320 --> 00:42:00.779
bolt and you were able to flip that switch? Yeah,

00:42:00.779 --> 00:42:02.539
there was a couple of times where I, you know,

00:42:02.860 --> 00:42:05.559
I fell off the wagon, if you will, but, you know,

00:42:05.699 --> 00:42:08.260
just a few handful of times. And then, you know,

00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:10.219
I'd realized that there was a spiritual side

00:42:10.219 --> 00:42:12.480
to this as well, you know, and I'd prayed and

00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:14.300
prayed and prayed, you know, and I had a very,

00:42:14.300 --> 00:42:16.440
you know, most important conversation I ever

00:42:16.440 --> 00:42:18.139
had is the one I had with Jesus and myself that

00:42:18.139 --> 00:42:19.840
night, is the way I look at it. And that's when

00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:22.480
I truly got the, you know, the courage and just

00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:25.019
the willpower just to put that bottle down and

00:42:25.019 --> 00:42:27.440
to face my, you know, face my demons head on,

00:42:27.539 --> 00:42:32.010
you know. You know, there's a lot of folks who

00:42:32.010 --> 00:42:39.449
talk about the moral injury that veterans in

00:42:39.449 --> 00:42:44.590
combat experience as they think about, who am

00:42:44.590 --> 00:42:47.690
I taking out? Why did the guy next to me have

00:42:47.690 --> 00:42:52.150
this accident or this get in the way of the bullet

00:42:52.150 --> 00:42:54.510
and I was just nearby or the grenade or whatever

00:42:54.510 --> 00:42:58.739
it might be? So there is this moral component

00:42:58.739 --> 00:43:00.980
to the injury and that's sort of the spiritual

00:43:00.980 --> 00:43:03.920
aspect that you're talking about 100 % yeah,

00:43:04.019 --> 00:43:05.400
I'm glad you actually brought that up because

00:43:05.400 --> 00:43:07.159
in the book I talk about like, you know still

00:43:07.159 --> 00:43:09.920
my unanswered question to this day is like Why

00:43:09.920 --> 00:43:11.679
does you know that God let bad things happen

00:43:11.679 --> 00:43:13.519
to good people and I I'm still searching for

00:43:13.519 --> 00:43:15.199
that answer You know, I have some ideas what

00:43:15.199 --> 00:43:18.039
it what it may be But uh, yeah, I asked that

00:43:18.039 --> 00:43:19.719
question in the book and that was a lot of a

00:43:19.719 --> 00:43:21.179
lot of dealing with that as well You know, it's

00:43:21.179 --> 00:43:23.000
just talking to God constantly trying to figure

00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:25.769
that part of life out, you know So we're talking

00:43:25.769 --> 00:43:30.329
to Anthony Dwyer. He's an Air Force veteran.

00:43:30.769 --> 00:43:36.030
Did his 20 years with special operations, aviation,

00:43:36.570 --> 00:43:42.050
close air support. But one of the things he probably

00:43:42.050 --> 00:43:44.730
never thought he'd put on his resume when he

00:43:44.730 --> 00:43:47.369
was growing up in the Appalachian Mountains of

00:43:47.369 --> 00:43:54.570
North Carolina is author. You have out now a

00:43:54.570 --> 00:43:57.349
memoir called moon child a warrior's reckoning

00:43:57.349 --> 00:44:02.550
with war addiction and purpose You've kind of

00:44:02.550 --> 00:44:04.949
mentioned, you know, hey I started writing stuff

00:44:04.949 --> 00:44:07.789
that sort of bleed on the page is therapy Talk

00:44:07.789 --> 00:44:10.570
a little bit, you know writing a book's not easy

00:44:10.570 --> 00:44:12.590
Putting yourself out. There's not easy. Tell

00:44:12.590 --> 00:44:14.590
tell us a little bit about that aspect of the

00:44:14.590 --> 00:44:17.769
journey Yeah, my friends always joke with me

00:44:17.769 --> 00:44:20.050
that you know, you know North Carolina education,

00:44:20.289 --> 00:44:22.119
you know Appalachia I still probably reading

00:44:22.119 --> 00:44:23.599
right on a fifth grade level, somehow I have

00:44:23.599 --> 00:44:26.059
a book. But yeah, so I'm surprised as you are

00:44:26.059 --> 00:44:29.820
about that. But yeah, so basically, you know,

00:44:29.900 --> 00:44:31.800
when I started writing all these things together

00:44:31.800 --> 00:44:35.079
and get, you know, back up a little bit. So there's

00:44:35.079 --> 00:44:36.679
a point in Air Force where you're applying for

00:44:36.679 --> 00:44:40.420
your like a DD 214, right? And you walk out this

00:44:40.420 --> 00:44:42.380
personnel is type flight, this office, you know,

00:44:42.440 --> 00:44:45.340
and often in that office, when you when you leave,

00:44:45.780 --> 00:44:47.679
you look back, there's no door handle on the

00:44:47.679 --> 00:44:49.320
other side of that door. So it was sort of symbolic,

00:44:49.420 --> 00:44:51.639
like, man, I can but I could never really get

00:44:51.639 --> 00:44:53.460
back into this machine that keeps going, you

00:44:53.460 --> 00:44:55.559
know? And so that was sort of, you know, I was

00:44:55.559 --> 00:44:57.019
dealing with that as well, you know? And like

00:44:57.019 --> 00:44:58.739
I said, every time that these thoughts would

00:44:58.739 --> 00:45:01.179
come in my mind, these bad thoughts, these sad

00:45:01.179 --> 00:45:03.519
thoughts, whatever the case was, I would write

00:45:03.519 --> 00:45:05.099
them down, you know, whether it's a, you know,

00:45:05.199 --> 00:45:07.500
like M &M with a napkin next to my, you know,

00:45:07.619 --> 00:45:09.300
my nightstand, something like that or whatever

00:45:09.300 --> 00:45:12.179
I had. And then finally I got the courage to

00:45:12.179 --> 00:45:15.219
reach out to an editor, she's actually a war

00:45:15.219 --> 00:45:17.780
journalist, Holly McKay, and through LinkedIn

00:45:17.780 --> 00:45:20.099
and then... As soon as I did that, she responded

00:45:20.099 --> 00:45:21.480
like right away. I remember I was in Walmart

00:45:21.480 --> 00:45:23.719
and she responded and I'm texting and we set

00:45:23.719 --> 00:45:25.239
up a phone call and she's like, yeah, she's like,

00:45:25.260 --> 00:45:28.420
you know, I'll do the editing for you. And she

00:45:28.420 --> 00:45:29.800
did a really good job of pulling those words

00:45:29.800 --> 00:45:31.679
out of me and giving my words, just painting

00:45:31.679 --> 00:45:33.360
that picture with my words and giving my words

00:45:33.360 --> 00:45:35.639
teeth is what I like to say. And she in turn

00:45:35.639 --> 00:45:38.039
recommended a publisher, Robbie Grayson, that

00:45:38.039 --> 00:45:39.760
did like the hardware of the book, if you will.

00:45:40.380 --> 00:45:43.219
And, you know, between that timeframe, next thing

00:45:43.219 --> 00:45:45.519
you know, I have a book, you know. Well, they

00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:48.579
say everybody's got a story and and and I think

00:45:48.579 --> 00:45:53.260
that's probably true some are forged into fire

00:45:53.260 --> 00:45:56.719
which yours certainly is and I think that the

00:45:56.719 --> 00:46:00.320
title of this is really interesting because It's

00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:02.920
reckoning with war which would you know kind

00:46:02.920 --> 00:46:05.019
of maybe can all understand addiction. Maybe

00:46:05.019 --> 00:46:08.599
we can all understand How that comes about and

00:46:08.599 --> 00:46:12.380
purpose that's an interesting ad talk about why?

00:46:13.210 --> 00:46:17.349
Finding that finding a new purpose After leaving

00:46:17.349 --> 00:46:19.909
the military which was so clearly the purpose

00:46:19.909 --> 00:46:24.070
for 20 years. Tell us about that battle Yes in

00:46:24.070 --> 00:46:26.210
the purpose in the you know, the title even itself

00:46:26.210 --> 00:46:28.150
like moon child, you know A lot of people asked

00:46:28.150 --> 00:46:30.849
me about that and to me the moons really symbolic,

00:46:30.849 --> 00:46:33.150
you know, you know, for example final AC 130

00:46:33.150 --> 00:46:35.690
it was often my lighthouse, you know, and it

00:46:35.690 --> 00:46:37.449
would highlight the terrain with MVG's and stuff

00:46:37.449 --> 00:46:40.380
like that and And there's these moments when

00:46:40.380 --> 00:46:42.840
everything is going against you, right? And it

00:46:42.840 --> 00:46:44.619
could be the weather, the system, the emergency

00:46:44.619 --> 00:46:47.139
procedures, all the communications, everything.

00:46:47.719 --> 00:46:50.340
And I realized that that's the day where you

00:46:50.340 --> 00:46:52.860
don't get to fall, you get to rise. And to me,

00:46:53.119 --> 00:46:55.039
that moon burns the brightest on the darkest

00:46:55.039 --> 00:46:58.199
nights. And that's when you get to really find

00:46:58.199 --> 00:47:01.039
a lot out about yourself. So the moon's always

00:47:01.039 --> 00:47:06.480
meant that symbolically a lot to me. Expand on

00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:08.739
this, though, in terms of that purpose you had

00:47:08.739 --> 00:47:12.980
to go find. Yeah, so like I said, when you leave,

00:47:13.340 --> 00:47:16.900
that sense of purpose, all that hits you like

00:47:16.900 --> 00:47:19.760
a tidal wave. Your sense of identity, your relevance

00:47:19.760 --> 00:47:22.239
is gone. I'm not going to be able to find more

00:47:22.239 --> 00:47:24.559
and make sure these guys get home with their

00:47:24.559 --> 00:47:27.000
family on the gunship and stuff like that. And

00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:29.500
so I was like, OK, well, right now I'm finding

00:47:29.500 --> 00:47:32.079
the legacy to be to find those. You know those

00:47:32.079 --> 00:47:33.980
moments in the calm with the family in the norm

00:47:33.980 --> 00:47:35.880
things of life, you know, that's to me. That's

00:47:35.880 --> 00:47:37.619
legacy now. That's that's my new purse being

00:47:37.619 --> 00:47:39.940
the best dad. I could be, you know, husband.

00:47:40.019 --> 00:47:42.019
I could be best author. I could be best best

00:47:42.019 --> 00:47:44.800
friend. I could be to someone. You know, it's

00:47:44.800 --> 00:47:47.019
easy to say that out loud and it makes sense

00:47:47.019 --> 00:47:49.019
when you say it out loud, but it's harder to

00:47:49.019 --> 00:47:51.780
live it, isn't it? It really is. Yeah, you know,

00:47:51.780 --> 00:47:53.840
and it's you know, at the end of the day I can

00:47:53.840 --> 00:47:55.679
either pick up my phone when someone calls or

00:47:55.679 --> 00:47:58.039
I can't, you know, and when these you know it's

00:47:58.039 --> 00:48:00.420
happened before, you know, I've actually. Recently

00:48:00.420 --> 00:48:02.199
talked to God for legend force. I had to do that.

00:48:02.199 --> 00:48:04.500
But uh, he's a better place for it now, you know

00:48:04.500 --> 00:48:06.260
So it's it's definitely hit you, you know, and

00:48:06.260 --> 00:48:08.159
those moments happen, you know paying it forward

00:48:08.159 --> 00:48:09.900
and you know God will definitely give you that

00:48:09.900 --> 00:48:13.139
chance Well, and part of this is that veterans

00:48:13.139 --> 00:48:16.219
ethos where hey, I had your back over there I'm

00:48:16.219 --> 00:48:19.280
gonna have your back over here and but it does

00:48:19.280 --> 00:48:21.239
take reaching out. It does take answering the

00:48:21.239 --> 00:48:24.050
phone doesn't it? 100 % yeah and and I always

00:48:24.050 --> 00:48:26.210
tell people like you know as far as veterans

00:48:26.210 --> 00:48:28.210
go like we we know each other really well right

00:48:28.210 --> 00:48:30.070
so it's the ones we served with and you know

00:48:30.070 --> 00:48:31.690
there's a difference saying hey how's it going

00:48:31.690 --> 00:48:33.750
man or like hey how are you doing really man

00:48:33.750 --> 00:48:35.369
because because we know each other's emotions

00:48:35.369 --> 00:48:37.570
we know the looks on our faces what you know

00:48:37.570 --> 00:48:41.489
you know each other that much and usually when

00:48:41.489 --> 00:48:43.809
you're writing a book of some sort you've got

00:48:43.809 --> 00:48:49.260
an audience in mind When you were writing moon

00:48:49.260 --> 00:48:52.320
child a warrior's reckoning with the war addiction

00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:57.059
and purpose And maybe your editor say hey you

00:48:57.059 --> 00:48:59.760
got to get a little more focused on the audience

00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:03.159
what audience were you writing to Really it was

00:49:03.159 --> 00:49:05.039
anybody that's disturbed, you know, and or anybody

00:49:05.039 --> 00:49:07.719
that's had some sort of addiction problem Those

00:49:07.719 --> 00:49:10.539
two main pools of people, you know, and a lot

00:49:10.539 --> 00:49:12.800
of these these uncommon jobs, you know It could

00:49:12.800 --> 00:49:15.039
be a policeman or firefighter, you know these

00:49:15.039 --> 00:49:17.650
very uncommon jobs were sometimes, unfortunately,

00:49:17.750 --> 00:49:20.230
you know, you don't have to do these jobs, but

00:49:20.230 --> 00:49:21.510
you see the worst thing that could happen to

00:49:21.510 --> 00:49:24.730
someone. You know, these kind of memoirs, Anthony,

00:49:25.130 --> 00:49:27.889
I also think help family members and friends

00:49:27.889 --> 00:49:31.710
who maybe can't be in the shoes of the veteran

00:49:31.710 --> 00:49:34.969
didn't see what the veteran has and doesn't understand

00:49:34.969 --> 00:49:38.070
what that person, guy or gal may be going through.

00:49:38.860 --> 00:49:42.139
It sort of helps to read your memoir and be able

00:49:42.139 --> 00:49:44.460
to recognize some of that in somebody else you

00:49:44.460 --> 00:49:47.900
might know and Maybe you've heard that from people

00:49:47.900 --> 00:49:51.719
Yeah, you definitely see some common struggles

00:49:51.719 --> 00:49:54.099
between like, you know, like paramedics and you

00:49:54.099 --> 00:49:56.260
know, definitely, you know cops and firefighters,

00:49:56.260 --> 00:49:58.440
you know jobs like that and where they've had

00:49:58.440 --> 00:50:00.300
to you know face that trauma head -on, you know,

00:50:00.719 --> 00:50:03.079
and I will say that you so calm was was really

00:50:03.079 --> 00:50:05.159
good as far as like You know one of the soft

00:50:05.159 --> 00:50:07.159
truths is what we call it is uh, you know humans

00:50:07.159 --> 00:50:09.539
are more important than hardware And uh, I mean

00:50:09.539 --> 00:50:12.139
those guys they live by that, you know and basically

00:50:12.139 --> 00:50:14.840
they invented the uh The preservation of the

00:50:14.840 --> 00:50:16.480
force and family where there's you get a physical

00:50:16.480 --> 00:50:18.260
therapist You get a trainer and then you get

00:50:18.260 --> 00:50:21.119
a psychologist, you know in your squadron oftenly

00:50:21.119 --> 00:50:23.900
Yeah that again. I think the u .s military has

00:50:23.900 --> 00:50:26.719
gotten much better over time with this and particularly

00:50:26.719 --> 00:50:30.340
after the 20 years of Afghanistan recognizing.

00:50:30.519 --> 00:50:34.300
Hey, it's uh, we got we got to help on the mental

00:50:34.300 --> 00:50:37.219
health side of things, and you probably saw that

00:50:37.219 --> 00:50:40.360
change over time. Oh, yeah, and I remember, you

00:50:40.360 --> 00:50:41.780
know, believe it or not, Abram McCraven came

00:50:41.780 --> 00:50:44.539
to the talk one night, and basically, it's when

00:50:44.539 --> 00:50:46.760
the H model gunship was going away, and he said,

00:50:46.840 --> 00:50:49.019
hey, he's like, listen, guys, like, we're slowing

00:50:49.019 --> 00:50:50.460
down the ops tempo. It's not going to be what

00:50:50.460 --> 00:50:52.380
we call a one -to -one dwell time. It was, you

00:50:52.380 --> 00:50:54.199
know, sort of like 90 days there, 90 days back.

00:50:54.300 --> 00:50:56.099
It would be like 90 days there, then like six

00:50:56.099 --> 00:50:58.860
months off, you know? So, slowed it down, and

00:50:58.860 --> 00:51:00.320
that's when he started seeing a lot of these

00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:01.960
programs getting, you know, implemented and stuff

00:51:01.960 --> 00:51:07.289
like that. So, what's next for the kid from North

00:51:07.289 --> 00:51:11.050
Carolina, now living in New Mexico? What, you're

00:51:11.050 --> 00:51:12.889
gonna write another book? What's the next step,

00:51:13.030 --> 00:51:15.550
big guy? Yeah, I'm actually in the process of

00:51:15.550 --> 00:51:19.190
writing one. It's basically tying the lessons

00:51:19.190 --> 00:51:22.230
learned from fishing, believe it or not. Fireflies,

00:51:22.369 --> 00:51:24.489
like back home, we have a lot of lightning bugs.

00:51:25.289 --> 00:51:28.070
And then fishing and flying, so all those three

00:51:28.070 --> 00:51:30.219
lessons. those three areas of lessons and then

00:51:30.219 --> 00:51:32.260
time and into one and try to be as poetic as

00:51:32.260 --> 00:51:34.840
I can with it, I guess. So, and also secondly,

00:51:34.940 --> 00:51:38.159
I'm inventing a, an app where basically you speak

00:51:38.159 --> 00:51:40.820
into this app and with, with AI like type, you

00:51:40.820 --> 00:51:42.920
know, companion stuff, like it's going to soft

00:51:42.920 --> 00:51:45.019
edit, you know, what the veteran or, you know,

00:51:45.179 --> 00:51:47.940
first responder reads into it. And then they

00:51:47.940 --> 00:51:49.619
would have the option to either get it edited

00:51:49.619 --> 00:51:51.940
and published for either, if not free than very

00:51:51.940 --> 00:51:54.219
cheap costs, you know, so. put it to the state,

00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:55.840
and we'll see if this nonprofit gets stood up.

00:51:56.380 --> 00:52:00.420
Well, that's great. Again, it's purpose along

00:52:00.420 --> 00:52:03.099
with the family, beyond the family, gives you

00:52:03.099 --> 00:52:05.500
additional purpose. We've been talking to Anthony

00:52:05.500 --> 00:52:08.260
Dwyer, who wrote Moon Child, the roots and wings

00:52:08.260 --> 00:52:11.619
of a United States Air Force combat special missions

00:52:11.619 --> 00:52:17.210
aviator. You can get that book just about anywhere.

00:52:18.210 --> 00:52:21.269
It'd make a great read for folks and gift for

00:52:21.269 --> 00:52:24.550
folks. Anthony, on the way out here, any final

00:52:24.550 --> 00:52:27.550
word for your fellow veterans? Yeah, I'd say

00:52:27.550 --> 00:52:30.650
just keep going. Remember Henry Ford said that

00:52:30.650 --> 00:52:32.750
an aircraft takes off against the wind, not with

00:52:32.750 --> 00:52:36.590
it. So you're going to lift off, you know. Excellent.

00:52:36.949 --> 00:52:40.050
I want to thank you for taking time to talk with

00:52:40.050 --> 00:52:43.019
Veterans Radio today, Anthony. Thanks, everybody.

00:52:43.340 --> 00:52:45.239
It's a pleasure to be here. I'm honored, Jim.

00:52:47.099 --> 00:52:49.780
These are really interesting stories in my mind,

00:52:49.780 --> 00:52:52.400
and that's why I was happy to bring them to you.

00:52:53.099 --> 00:52:56.019
We've got a couple of guys who, you know, they're

00:52:56.019 --> 00:52:58.619
the real deal. They spent the time in the sandbox.

00:52:59.300 --> 00:53:03.420
They did their time in service. But they're also

00:53:03.420 --> 00:53:07.840
willing to recognize after they get out, you

00:53:07.840 --> 00:53:09.940
know, there were things they still had to do.

00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:12.539
They had to work on themselves. if you will,

00:53:12.619 --> 00:53:15.800
they had to go back into training to kind of

00:53:15.800 --> 00:53:20.460
shed some of the problems that they had, re -mold

00:53:20.460 --> 00:53:24.460
their personality, re -mold what their purpose

00:53:24.460 --> 00:53:29.320
was, and as I say, shed some of the bad habits,

00:53:29.539 --> 00:53:32.880
bad thoughts, things that were built up over

00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:37.530
20 years. whether it's an addiction to the bottle

00:53:37.530 --> 00:53:43.349
or to high adrenaline activities, parachuting,

00:53:43.570 --> 00:53:47.869
motorcycle racing, whatever it might be, some

00:53:47.869 --> 00:53:50.389
of that's kind of false purpose. You're trying

00:53:50.389 --> 00:53:52.829
to replace the adrenaline rush you got in service

00:53:52.829 --> 00:53:55.570
with some other adrenaline rush. Well, you can't

00:53:55.570 --> 00:54:00.349
do that forever. And in both instances, they

00:54:00.349 --> 00:54:06.440
finally woke up or accepted what people were

00:54:06.440 --> 00:54:08.699
telling them, maybe their spouse, maybe their

00:54:08.699 --> 00:54:12.139
parents, maybe their friends. Hey, you gotta

00:54:12.139 --> 00:54:19.800
get some help. And both Joshua and Anthony were

00:54:19.800 --> 00:54:22.440
ultimately strong enough to say, I'm gonna go

00:54:22.440 --> 00:54:26.840
get that help. And it isn't a light switch, it

00:54:26.840 --> 00:54:30.639
doesn't just happen. You know, Anthony kind of

00:54:30.639 --> 00:54:33.300
mentioned it, but didn't dwell on it. Yeah, I

00:54:33.300 --> 00:54:37.510
fell off the wagon a few times. You might fall

00:54:37.510 --> 00:54:40.429
off two times, you might fall off 20 times. The

00:54:40.429 --> 00:54:45.070
key is to get back on and recognize that you

00:54:45.070 --> 00:54:48.130
have to give up some of those activities. I find

00:54:48.130 --> 00:54:50.349
it interesting that in Anthony's case, you know,

00:54:50.630 --> 00:54:52.550
he said every time I wanted to pick up a bottle,

00:54:52.590 --> 00:54:55.329
I'd pick up a pen and write out my thoughts.

00:54:55.769 --> 00:55:00.409
And that started becoming the basis of a warrior's

00:55:00.409 --> 00:55:05.559
reckoning with war, addiction, and purpose. a

00:55:05.559 --> 00:55:10.380
book is titled Moon Child. So if you've got a

00:55:10.380 --> 00:55:12.239
friend out there, you've got a battle buddy,

00:55:12.340 --> 00:55:15.280
you've got a family member who's battling, don't

00:55:15.280 --> 00:55:18.179
count them out. Don't, if they fall off the wagon,

00:55:18.360 --> 00:55:20.800
help them get back. Help them get back to maybe

00:55:20.800 --> 00:55:24.059
the therapy they need or seeing a different psychologist,

00:55:24.179 --> 00:55:26.679
whatever it might be. But I think it's important

00:55:26.679 --> 00:55:29.380
that we don't give up on these guys. And I know

00:55:29.380 --> 00:55:32.420
veterans will not give up on each other. Speaking

00:55:32.420 --> 00:55:34.679
of groups that won't give up on you, I want to

00:55:34.679 --> 00:55:37.119
point out the support we get from the Vietnam

00:55:37.119 --> 00:55:42.260
Veterans of America and also local VSOs such

00:55:42.260 --> 00:55:44.480
as the Vietnam Veterans of America, Charles S.

00:55:44.579 --> 00:55:48.800
Kettle chapter 310 in Ann Arbor, the VFW, Graf

00:55:48.800 --> 00:55:52.340
O 'Hara post 423, and the American Legion press

00:55:52.340 --> 00:55:55.760
corps in post 46 in Ann Arbor. They keep us on

00:55:55.760 --> 00:55:57.420
the air, they keep us grounded, they give us

00:55:57.420 --> 00:56:01.010
great ideas. So this brings us to the end of

00:56:01.010 --> 00:56:06.030
our time, and until you get back with Dale Throneberry

00:56:06.030 --> 00:56:09.889
or myself on Veterans Radio or our podcast, which

00:56:09.889 --> 00:56:13.550
you can always find on veteransradio .net, we

00:56:13.550 --> 00:56:15.809
appreciate you. We appreciate what you've done

00:56:15.809 --> 00:56:20.150
for the country and for keeping us honest, us

00:56:20.150 --> 00:56:25.210
supported, and If you want to support us financially,

00:56:25.409 --> 00:56:28.369
you can go to veteransradio .org, hit the donate

00:56:28.369 --> 00:56:32.309
button. Both the individual donations as well

00:56:32.309 --> 00:56:34.869
as corporate sponsorships are greatly appreciated.

00:56:35.409 --> 00:56:39.309
When you've been on the air for 22 years, you're

00:56:39.309 --> 00:56:42.369
always scraping by and making sure you can get

00:56:42.369 --> 00:56:46.090
to the next spot. So until next time on Veterans

00:56:46.090 --> 00:56:50.590
Radio, you are dismissed.