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We want 00:02:07.950 --> 00:02:11.650 to welcome to Veterans Radio a couple of Army 00:02:11.650 --> 00:02:15.139 veterans, a couple of Western Michigan University 00:02:15.139 --> 00:02:19.500 alumni and Broncos and a couple of guys who went 00:02:19.500 --> 00:02:23.740 through the ROTC program and had a fantastic 00:02:23.740 --> 00:02:26.699 project they recently completed preserving the 00:02:26.699 --> 00:02:29.819 75 -year history of ROTC at Western Michigan 00:02:29.819 --> 00:02:33.280 University. Tom Vance, welcome to Veterans Radio. 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:37.340 Thank you, Jim. And Mike Evans, welcome to Veterans 00:02:37.340 --> 00:02:41.810 Radio. Thank you very much. Well, you both graduated 00:02:41.810 --> 00:02:43.930 from Western Michigan University in the same 00:02:43.930 --> 00:02:47.789 year. You were in the same ROTC classes, but 00:02:47.789 --> 00:02:52.490 let's start with that. Mike, why ROTC? To be 00:02:52.490 --> 00:02:57.610 honest, I felt it was the best way to get a commission. 00:02:58.569 --> 00:03:02.009 I'd done some research. You know, there's basically 00:03:02.009 --> 00:03:04.129 three ways to get a commission, either through 00:03:04.129 --> 00:03:06.250 Officer Candidate School, through West Point. 00:03:06.620 --> 00:03:11.560 or through ROTC. And as it turned out, it was 00:03:11.560 --> 00:03:14.240 an opportunity when I went to Western to get 00:03:14.240 --> 00:03:18.360 involved, and it worked out well. I was definitely 00:03:18.360 --> 00:03:21.159 offered a scholarship. You clearly did. Tom, 00:03:21.539 --> 00:03:25.219 why ROTC for you? Well, I'd always wanted to 00:03:25.219 --> 00:03:27.620 be in the Army. Probably ever since middle school, 00:03:27.819 --> 00:03:29.659 if someone asked me what I wanted to do, I would 00:03:29.659 --> 00:03:31.800 say I'm going to go to college and be in the 00:03:31.800 --> 00:03:35.879 Army. So I knew about ROTC for a long time. And 00:03:35.879 --> 00:03:39.060 I didn't have a scholarship initially, but I 00:03:39.060 --> 00:03:42.080 ended up getting a scholarship my last year that 00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:44.780 guaranteed me getting active duty. Because at 00:03:44.780 --> 00:03:46.900 the time that Mike and I were getting commissioned, 00:03:47.300 --> 00:03:50.360 it was very competitive to get active duty as 00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:52.580 opposed to just people who went into the reserve 00:03:52.580 --> 00:03:57.639 right after college. And so I did end up with 00:03:57.639 --> 00:04:00.199 a one -year scholarship that guaranteed me active 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:03.379 duty after graduation. Well, you know, that's 00:04:03.379 --> 00:04:05.560 one of the things you and most people don't know 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:07.400 and the rules change You have to know what the 00:04:07.400 --> 00:04:10.419 rules are both to get an initial scholarship 00:04:10.419 --> 00:04:13.060 with ROTC You can get one before you go in but 00:04:13.060 --> 00:04:15.819 a lot of folks get one after that first year 00:04:15.819 --> 00:04:19.120 or after that second year So there's a lot of 00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:24.680 ways the program works to help students Get into 00:04:24.680 --> 00:04:29.060 and pay for college, but also learn about leadership 00:04:29.269 --> 00:04:32.370 learn about teamwork. Mike, talk about some of 00:04:32.370 --> 00:04:34.810 the things you learned in ROTC that maybe as 00:04:34.810 --> 00:04:37.990 a young guy, maybe you were still in the learning 00:04:37.990 --> 00:04:41.870 stage. Well, like Tom, I wanted to be in the 00:04:41.870 --> 00:04:45.209 Army. My dad had served, and so it was an opportunity 00:04:45.209 --> 00:04:49.810 for me to serve the country. But the biggest 00:04:49.810 --> 00:04:53.269 thing I learned, and I think it distinguishes 00:04:53.269 --> 00:04:58.029 people in leadership positions is the leadership 00:04:58.029 --> 00:05:01.209 itself. There are managers out there that are 00:05:01.209 --> 00:05:04.370 in charge of people, but truly ROTC taught us 00:05:04.370 --> 00:05:08.370 how to lead by example and through a lot of different 00:05:08.370 --> 00:05:12.189 ways of showing one, that you were focused on 00:05:12.189 --> 00:05:14.269 the mission, but two, that you cared about the 00:05:14.269 --> 00:05:17.670 people and they were equally important to me. 00:05:18.550 --> 00:05:22.149 And so it really was an eye -opening experience. 00:05:22.670 --> 00:05:25.129 Well, you know, when you're in that position 00:05:25.129 --> 00:05:29.089 as a college kid, you know, you're pretty young, 00:05:29.170 --> 00:05:33.230 you're pretty green. So part of what ROTC teaches 00:05:33.230 --> 00:05:38.290 you in the leadership skills, Tom, kind of advances 00:05:38.290 --> 00:05:42.029 you above others of your same age and experience, 00:05:42.170 --> 00:05:45.069 doesn't it? Well, it builds a lot of confidence. 00:05:45.790 --> 00:05:49.199 The program is designed to, you know, train you 00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:52.259 as a team, you know, we're besides the physical 00:05:52.259 --> 00:05:54.439 fitness part of it, we were trained in small 00:05:54.439 --> 00:05:58.740 unit tactics. And we had FTX's field training 00:05:58.740 --> 00:06:01.740 exercises each semester where we'd go out at 00:06:01.740 --> 00:06:04.759 Fort Custer and go out in the field and train. 00:06:05.360 --> 00:06:09.759 And it was really great training. One thing Mike 00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:12.939 didn't mention about himself was that Mike was 00:06:12.939 --> 00:06:16.829 the cadet battalion commander. Senior year, so 00:06:16.829 --> 00:06:19.230 Mike was in charge of the cadet corps senior 00:06:19.230 --> 00:06:23.009 year at ROTC Well, there's speaking of a position 00:06:23.009 --> 00:06:25.889 of leadership Mike, how long did you serve in 00:06:25.889 --> 00:06:29.550 the army? A little over four years. I was on 00:06:29.550 --> 00:06:33.149 active duty in Germany and stateside I was part 00:06:33.149 --> 00:06:35.649 of the Berlin Brigade back when the wall was 00:06:35.649 --> 00:06:39.850 up. So that was a real great experience in and 00:06:39.850 --> 00:06:44.500 of itself but yeah, I put in I had a put in at 00:06:44.500 --> 00:06:46.720 least four years when I accepted a scholarship. 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:49.740 I wasn't sure I wanted to make it a career so 00:06:49.740 --> 00:06:53.220 I got an educational delay to get my graduate 00:06:53.220 --> 00:06:55.660 degree at the University of Michigan and after 00:06:55.660 --> 00:06:59.240 the four years I moved on and actually went into 00:06:59.240 --> 00:07:02.899 trust work which I did for 37 and a half years. 00:07:03.459 --> 00:07:05.339 Well you know one of the things you learned too 00:07:05.339 --> 00:07:10.850 Tom in that period and Maybe I'll go back to 00:07:10.850 --> 00:07:13.230 Mike on this because he went to Germany for part 00:07:13.230 --> 00:07:16.709 of his time. Again, you're a young guy. You haven't 00:07:16.709 --> 00:07:19.990 seen the world yet. You haven't had a paycheck 00:07:19.990 --> 00:07:23.730 that you could spend yet. Makes you grow up and 00:07:23.730 --> 00:07:25.529 shows you the rest of the world, doesn't it? 00:07:26.029 --> 00:07:30.269 It does, yeah. Now, where did you spend your 00:07:30.269 --> 00:07:32.350 time, Tom, and how long were you in the Army? 00:07:32.569 --> 00:07:35.810 Well, I spent 10 years on active duty. Started 00:07:35.810 --> 00:07:39.199 off in New York City. uh, which is a interesting 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:42.339 place to be in the army. Uh, and then actually 00:07:42.339 --> 00:07:44.720 went to Germany for three years. My wife and 00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:47.660 I went there and Mike was already in Germany. 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:50.379 And so we were able to visit a couple of times 00:07:50.379 --> 00:07:53.019 while we were both over there. Uh, and then came 00:07:53.019 --> 00:07:57.899 back and was at Fort Knox for four years. Um, 00:07:58.019 --> 00:08:00.019 so I had 10 years active duty. Then I went into 00:08:00.019 --> 00:08:03.750 the reserve and I spent, um, 12 years in the 00:08:03.750 --> 00:08:07.170 reserve, 10 of those years I was teaching at 00:08:07.170 --> 00:08:10.910 ROTC at nighttime. I didn't get paid for it, 00:08:10.910 --> 00:08:13.810 but I got retirement points. So I was back at 00:08:13.810 --> 00:08:17.769 Western teaching an ROTC class at night. And 00:08:17.769 --> 00:08:20.350 then I had a gig where every summer for two weeks, 00:08:20.430 --> 00:08:23.629 I go to Washington and do a public affairs job. 00:08:25.110 --> 00:08:29.350 And so between ROTC and the two week public affairs 00:08:29.350 --> 00:08:32.820 gigs, cobbled together enough to retire from 00:08:32.820 --> 00:08:37.039 the reserve. Oh, that's great. Again, it's not 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:38.879 one of those things you necessarily plan. But 00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:41.379 as you say, you're able to cobble it together 00:08:41.379 --> 00:08:44.879 and build a career that gives you some retirement. 00:08:44.940 --> 00:08:47.100 And obviously, it was something you enjoy doing. 00:08:47.799 --> 00:08:50.399 Otherwise, you don't stick with it. And then 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:53.279 you came out, I think, and went into public relations 00:08:53.279 --> 00:08:55.779 and community relations at a couple of spots 00:08:55.779 --> 00:08:58.149 over in West Michigan. Right, working at the 00:08:58.149 --> 00:09:01.590 Upjohn company, the pharmaceutical, which became 00:09:01.590 --> 00:09:05.450 part of Pfizer now, and a public school district, 00:09:05.570 --> 00:09:08.389 and then a community foundation doing public 00:09:08.389 --> 00:09:11.590 affairs for all those organizations. But along 00:09:11.590 --> 00:09:13.529 the way, neither of you guys, now you've both 00:09:13.529 --> 00:09:16.509 picked up at Western, I think degrees in history, 00:09:16.750 --> 00:09:20.389 BA in history, you never lost the enthusiasm 00:09:20.389 --> 00:09:24.440 apparently for the ROTC program at Western Michigan 00:09:24.440 --> 00:09:29.440 University, because you took on what reads like 00:09:29.440 --> 00:09:34.940 an insurmountable project of, passion project 00:09:34.940 --> 00:09:39.019 really of, hey, let's put a comprehensive 75 00:09:39.019 --> 00:09:43.559 year history together of this program. What the 00:09:43.559 --> 00:09:50.659 heck were you thinking? maybe feel similarly, 00:09:50.980 --> 00:09:54.179 for me it was more a labor of love. You know, 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:56.860 I helped Tom with the history. He did most of 00:09:56.860 --> 00:10:00.220 the narrative and I worked on biographies of 00:10:00.220 --> 00:10:02.940 former cadets and professors of military science 00:10:02.940 --> 00:10:06.179 and was able to put together at this point about 00:10:06.179 --> 00:10:09.720 1 ,200. Yeah, this is amazing. Each of you talk 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:12.659 about, like, one of you concentrated on oral 00:10:12.659 --> 00:10:14.700 histories and somebody else concentrated on narrative 00:10:14.700 --> 00:10:18.330 histories. Tom, go ahead, talk about your component 00:10:18.330 --> 00:10:21.450 of this. I've got a chart of the numbers. And 00:10:21.450 --> 00:10:23.129 unless you're an accountant, it'll make your 00:10:23.129 --> 00:10:27.330 eyes bleed. It's really amazing. The volume of 00:10:27.330 --> 00:10:29.509 work. Well, and it was interesting how it all 00:10:29.509 --> 00:10:32.149 developed because, you know, Mike and I, it was 00:10:32.149 --> 00:10:35.750 a two year project, basically. And, and we just 00:10:35.750 --> 00:10:40.070 sort of kept it kept evolving and getting more 00:10:40.070 --> 00:10:42.029 and more in depth. I don't think either one of 00:10:42.029 --> 00:10:44.710 us envisioned that we'd end up where we ended 00:10:44.710 --> 00:10:50.210 up after two years of research. So initially, 00:10:50.370 --> 00:10:53.250 I was focusing on, well, Mike and I both started 00:10:53.250 --> 00:10:55.710 at the archives at Western Michigan University, 00:10:55.789 --> 00:10:59.450 and the archives had just tons of great materials 00:10:59.450 --> 00:11:03.830 that we started with. And I started assembling 00:11:03.830 --> 00:11:07.429 a narrative decade by decade of how the program 00:11:07.429 --> 00:11:12.850 was developing. And Mike was capturing photos 00:11:12.850 --> 00:11:17.029 from the yearbooks and the photo archives at 00:11:17.029 --> 00:11:20.970 Western. And so I focused on the narrative, which 00:11:20.970 --> 00:11:24.149 included some oral histories with alumni from 00:11:24.149 --> 00:11:27.909 several decades, from the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s, 00:11:28.029 --> 00:11:30.649 we've got alumni talking about their experience. 00:11:30.950 --> 00:11:33.690 And that information got sprinkled into the narrative. 00:11:34.309 --> 00:11:38.320 And then And then Mike was focusing on all these 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:44.220 biographies. Well, and yeah, probably if you 00:11:44.220 --> 00:11:46.340 knew how much work this was going to take, you'd 00:11:46.340 --> 00:11:48.039 never start the project. That's the only way 00:11:48.039 --> 00:11:50.379 these things really go, because it ended up being 00:11:50.379 --> 00:11:55.220 a 10 -volume series. You wrote 58 pages on the 00:11:55.220 --> 00:12:01.080 history, Tom. And Mike, did you talk to 1 ,200 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:06.269 people? No, it was a combination. We did post 00:12:06.269 --> 00:12:10.529 online through the department a series of questions 00:12:10.529 --> 00:12:15.649 for alumni to answer and then in most cases I 00:12:15.649 --> 00:12:19.529 followed up with those alumni to create a biography 00:12:19.529 --> 00:12:24.230 on them. In other cases I found information independently 00:12:24.230 --> 00:12:31.759 from, you know, obituaries and other means of 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:35.440 identifying these people, LinkedIn, Facebook, 00:12:36.139 --> 00:12:39.940 you name it. And so, in a lot of cases, I did 00:12:39.940 --> 00:12:42.960 talk to the alums, but in a lot of cases, I didn't, 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:48.500 and many had passed. And some weren't interested 00:12:48.500 --> 00:12:51.679 in talking. Not everybody's experience was a 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:54.980 positive one, as much as I think the vast majority. 00:12:57.539 --> 00:13:00.340 was. Yeah, when you start going down that road 00:13:00.340 --> 00:13:03.000 with biographies and I'm working on a project 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:05.720 that's getting me in that same realm, you find 00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:07.940 out there are people who would just go back to 00:13:07.940 --> 00:13:10.279 private life and that's their whole point. They 00:13:10.279 --> 00:13:12.740 just want to be private and there's nothing wrong 00:13:12.740 --> 00:13:18.559 with that. Talk a little bit, either of you, 00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:22.570 about There was a demographic change in who was 00:13:22.570 --> 00:13:26.190 in ROTC over the decades, the 75 years. What 00:13:26.190 --> 00:13:31.250 did you learn from your research that sort of, 00:13:31.309 --> 00:13:33.669 yeah, we can see this demographic change going 00:13:33.669 --> 00:13:37.490 on? Well, I think at least from my perspective, 00:13:37.710 --> 00:13:41.710 and Tom also did research on this, each decade 00:13:41.710 --> 00:13:47.129 had an interesting mix of individuals. The program 00:13:47.129 --> 00:13:49.769 initially in the 50s started out as a quartermaster 00:13:49.769 --> 00:13:55.610 school. And so, you know, most cadets that got 00:13:55.610 --> 00:13:59.289 into the program came out quartermaster officers. 00:14:00.169 --> 00:14:03.090 And following the Korean War, there was a lot 00:14:03.090 --> 00:14:05.710 of people that did volunteer because there was 00:14:05.710 --> 00:14:10.730 a great deal of interest in serving. In the 60s, 00:14:10.830 --> 00:14:13.669 when Vietnam came up, we had even more cadets, 00:14:13.789 --> 00:14:17.110 but that was in large part because the draft 00:14:17.110 --> 00:14:22.629 existed and ROTC was a way to, one, avoid the 00:14:22.629 --> 00:14:28.590 draft initially and come out with a different 00:14:28.590 --> 00:14:32.549 branch perhaps that maybe didn't require you 00:14:32.549 --> 00:14:35.659 to go to Vietnam, although a number. of the graduates 00:14:35.659 --> 00:14:39.179 did end up in Vietnam and served very well. You 00:14:39.179 --> 00:14:42.320 got into the 70s post -Vietnam and that was kind 00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:46.259 of the lean period for the program. And then 00:14:46.259 --> 00:14:51.299 I think if you look at the 80s, 90s, 2010, 2020s, 00:14:51.299 --> 00:14:54.960 you had the introduction of women in the program 00:14:54.960 --> 00:15:00.480 and really a more vast array, not just of people 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:03.700 in the program, but the opportunities that existed 00:15:04.120 --> 00:15:09.179 Say, for example, at Western, they had a lot 00:15:09.179 --> 00:15:14.759 of flight students and people that went into 00:15:14.759 --> 00:15:18.200 aviation. And so we had a pretty good contingency 00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:22.019 of officers that served in that area. So yeah, 00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:24.860 I think things definitely, you could see each 00:15:24.860 --> 00:15:28.139 decade changing in terms of the type of people 00:15:28.139 --> 00:15:31.860 and the reasons for which they joined. Yeah, 00:15:31.899 --> 00:15:33.759 from the outside, it might look static. From 00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:36.940 the inside, it's not static. As you mentioned, 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:41.159 Western has this great aviation program. And 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:43.860 I'm sure that that grew people. I think I read 00:15:43.860 --> 00:15:49.039 that there have been something like 1 ,700 cadets 00:15:49.039 --> 00:15:53.019 commissioned out of the program since it began. 00:15:54.419 --> 00:16:00.179 Big numbers. And some of the information that 00:16:00.179 --> 00:16:03.320 I found interesting was like how many women, 00:16:03.559 --> 00:16:05.899 what percentage of women in different decades 00:16:05.899 --> 00:16:10.259 as it went from zero to I think the high maybe 00:16:10.259 --> 00:16:17.759 is around 32%. That's kind of interesting. You 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:24.019 captured data on folks who made grade at Lieutenant 00:16:24.019 --> 00:16:29.889 Colonels and above. about 9 % of that group made 00:16:29.889 --> 00:16:32.629 it a career and achieved that kind of rank. Again, 00:16:33.690 --> 00:16:36.669 really kind of interesting data when you start 00:16:36.669 --> 00:16:39.250 analyzing it. Tom, what surprised you as you 00:16:39.250 --> 00:16:42.850 were putting it together? Well, I was going to 00:16:42.850 --> 00:16:45.809 use the example of when Mike and I were in ROTC 00:16:45.809 --> 00:16:50.529 is an interesting point in the history because 00:16:50.909 --> 00:16:53.769 you know, the Vietnam War ended in 73, and that's 00:16:53.769 --> 00:16:56.710 when the draft ended. So Mike and I and everyone 00:16:56.710 --> 00:17:01.769 that joined in 1974, we were like in this, I 00:17:01.769 --> 00:17:04.009 think those are like the smallest numbers that 00:17:04.009 --> 00:17:11.009 the program had seen since it started. And we 00:17:11.009 --> 00:17:15.089 were, our experience was really impacted by the 00:17:15.089 --> 00:17:17.650 Vietnam War, because there were a few of us, 00:17:17.910 --> 00:17:20.829 but the cadre had all had combat experience in 00:17:20.829 --> 00:17:24.029 the Vietnam. So that really created an intensity 00:17:24.029 --> 00:17:29.519 to the training we got. that was just very inspiring 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:32.220 to us. And I think we were sort of in awe of 00:17:32.220 --> 00:17:35.440 the cadre that we had. And the same thing had 00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:37.579 happened with people who joined the program when 00:17:37.579 --> 00:17:40.920 it started. You know, the in Korea, the Korean 00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:43.799 War started in 1950, and our program started 00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:47.480 in 1950. And so during the first couple years 00:17:47.480 --> 00:17:51.849 of ROTC, the cadets had combat veterans assigned 00:17:51.849 --> 00:17:56.690 to ROTC as cadre. And so the Korean War impacted 00:17:56.690 --> 00:17:59.990 training a lot and the Vietnam War impacted training, 00:18:00.150 --> 00:18:04.630 beginning with like our year groups. So, I mean, 00:18:04.690 --> 00:18:07.150 I think that made a lasting impression on both 00:18:07.150 --> 00:18:10.130 of us that the kind of training we got and hearing 00:18:10.130 --> 00:18:13.490 our cadre talk about their experience in war, 00:18:14.309 --> 00:18:18.700 it made it very serious business. Well, and, 00:18:18.700 --> 00:18:21.380 you know, we just have come out of a 20 -year 00:18:21.380 --> 00:18:25.680 war a couple of years ago, Iraq and Afghanistan, 00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:30.900 or global war on terror. Did you have an opportunity, 00:18:31.500 --> 00:18:34.339 Mike, to hear from those folks, those more recent 00:18:34.339 --> 00:18:37.140 graduates who had found themselves over in the 00:18:37.140 --> 00:18:41.720 sandbox? Yes. In fact, one of them had written 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:45.940 a book about her experience. And yeah, several 00:18:45.940 --> 00:18:54.019 had been in Iraq and part of the 91 venture, 00:18:54.559 --> 00:19:00.119 92 as well as later, both in Iraq and Afghanistan. 00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:06.180 So it, you know, again, war is not fun. And the 00:19:06.180 --> 00:19:08.940 people that served really in a lot of cases, 00:19:09.220 --> 00:19:13.140 made great sacrifices to serve and do their duty. 00:19:14.059 --> 00:19:16.579 Yeah, you really have to have a commitment to 00:19:16.579 --> 00:19:20.700 the service and the country to go through not 00:19:20.700 --> 00:19:24.700 only ROTC program, but then meet your commitment 00:19:24.700 --> 00:19:27.119 those four years afterwards or stick around either. 00:19:27.369 --> 00:19:30.809 Through more of that as you did time and certainly 00:19:30.809 --> 00:19:34.009 over the last 20 years the tempo of the op tempo 00:19:34.009 --> 00:19:37.910 of Cycling back into combat for a lot of our 00:19:37.910 --> 00:19:42.930 guys in the army Was at a level nobody nobody 00:19:42.930 --> 00:19:49.490 ever envisioned so I'm curious is are all of 00:19:49.490 --> 00:19:53.490 the ROTC Scholarships at Western Army or is there 00:19:53.490 --> 00:19:59.230 also Navy component or Air Force component? It's 00:19:59.230 --> 00:20:02.970 mainly just Army ROTC. The Western has recently 00:20:02.970 --> 00:20:06.069 affiliated with Michigan State University who 00:20:06.069 --> 00:20:09.130 has Air Force ROTC in addition to Army ROTC. 00:20:09.170 --> 00:20:12.109 So if you're a Western aviation student, let's 00:20:12.109 --> 00:20:15.009 say, and you want to become an Air Force officer, 00:20:16.650 --> 00:20:20.250 you can... study at Western, but then cross -enroll 00:20:20.250 --> 00:20:22.750 with Michigan State, and then you'd end up being 00:20:22.750 --> 00:20:25.690 commissioned as an Air Force officer. Not that 00:20:25.690 --> 00:20:27.849 everyone in the Air Force has to be a pilot, 00:20:27.950 --> 00:20:30.470 you know, that's not the case, but because Western 00:20:30.470 --> 00:20:34.809 does have a great aviation program, I think that's 00:20:34.809 --> 00:20:36.650 a recent thing within the last couple years. 00:20:37.269 --> 00:20:40.150 But basically, it's just Army ROTC at Western. 00:20:40.869 --> 00:20:43.630 One of the things that you... Go ahead, Mike. 00:20:44.049 --> 00:20:46.049 Yeah, the other part of that is, you know, you 00:20:46.049 --> 00:20:48.819 do have the option of going into aviation in 00:20:48.819 --> 00:20:51.119 the Army to the extent you're flying helicopters 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:55.259 or combat support. The other thing I was going 00:20:55.259 --> 00:20:57.559 to mention, we talked about the aviation school. 00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:00.180 You know, we had a very strong nursing school. 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:03.339 And so we had a lot of cadets that were commissioned 00:21:03.339 --> 00:21:06.799 in the medical corps field who served as well. 00:21:07.019 --> 00:21:11.240 So Western. is a pretty progressive institution 00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:14.680 and has always been very supportive of ROTC. 00:21:14.980 --> 00:21:19.140 And we produce some very, very good officers 00:21:19.140 --> 00:21:23.920 over the years. Well, this kind of project, you 00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:29.900 know, labor of love, takes a lot of time doing 00:21:29.900 --> 00:21:33.400 research and being in the archives. And I want 00:21:34.009 --> 00:21:36.910 One of you to talk about the help you got from 00:21:36.910 --> 00:21:41.049 the University Archives curator, because it can't 00:21:41.049 --> 00:21:46.029 be done without that kind of support. Take it 00:21:46.029 --> 00:21:49.970 away, Tom. Well, like I said, Mike and I both 00:21:49.970 --> 00:21:54.130 started there. And then as we went our sort of 00:21:54.130 --> 00:21:56.609 two different ways on the focus of the project, 00:21:56.730 --> 00:21:59.869 I know we both kept using the archives at Western. 00:22:01.670 --> 00:22:06.630 Boy, the information that they had, like they've 00:22:06.630 --> 00:22:12.690 got commencement programs that informed us who 00:22:12.690 --> 00:22:17.109 was being commissioned every year. And Mike did 00:22:17.109 --> 00:22:19.710 a lot of work with that. I'll let Mike can talk 00:22:19.710 --> 00:22:22.529 to you all day about the data that he collected 00:22:22.529 --> 00:22:29.009 about the alumni. But yearbooks and course catalogs, 00:22:29.150 --> 00:22:32.710 because each decade the curriculum would adjust 00:22:32.710 --> 00:22:35.829 a little bit throughout the history and we we 00:22:35.829 --> 00:22:40.230 use those photos like I mentioned. Mike did a 00:22:40.230 --> 00:22:44.470 lot with photos. In fact, I think Mike there's 00:22:44.470 --> 00:22:47.990 what you've got like 2000 photos that are represented 00:22:47.990 --> 00:22:52.329 in the the nine binders that some of his one 00:22:52.329 --> 00:22:56.109 page bios that he did Jim will have two or three 00:22:56.109 --> 00:23:02.440 photos on each of those. pages and so it's a 00:23:02.440 --> 00:23:06.079 great and then Mike also illustrated the narrative 00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:09.559 that I wrote. Mike went in and illustrated it 00:23:09.559 --> 00:23:12.759 with photos and laid the whole thing out and 00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:16.859 it really makes it more appealing when you can 00:23:16.859 --> 00:23:20.880 read decade by decade and see photos of the cadets. 00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:24.519 Well and I think the other part of that too is 00:23:24.519 --> 00:23:26.900 the archive staff and answered your question 00:23:26.900 --> 00:23:29.769 were very supportive. They would sit down with 00:23:29.769 --> 00:23:34.049 us anytime we had questions or, you know, they 00:23:34.049 --> 00:23:37.450 had ideas of where we could check to find information. 00:23:38.109 --> 00:23:41.430 So yeah, the staff there was very supportive, 00:23:41.450 --> 00:23:45.910 very helpful throughout the process. But yeah. 00:23:46.329 --> 00:23:50.470 I saw that you ultimately presented this nine 00:23:50.470 --> 00:23:57.450 volume or 10 volume body of work. to the university, 00:23:57.710 --> 00:24:01.470 to the archives. Are they going to digitize it? 00:24:01.650 --> 00:24:04.990 Do you know what the plans are for folks to be 00:24:04.990 --> 00:24:08.750 able to, hey, I want to check out what grandpa 00:24:08.750 --> 00:24:11.930 or what my aunt did. You know, you guys have 00:24:11.930 --> 00:24:14.569 done work that I'm sure there are families don't 00:24:14.569 --> 00:24:18.269 know this history of their relatives. Good point. 00:24:18.609 --> 00:24:21.329 The archives obviously has a copy and they've 00:24:21.329 --> 00:24:25.039 preserved it, taking into account. preservation 00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:29.660 methods for keeping the information intact. The 00:24:29.660 --> 00:24:31.660 Department of Military Science and Leadership 00:24:31.660 --> 00:24:35.619 at Western has a copy and they have attempted 00:24:35.619 --> 00:24:38.880 or are in the process of putting together those 00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:42.880 biographies online so people can click in to 00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:45.859 see the biographies. They haven't been able to 00:24:45.859 --> 00:24:49.059 institute adding the pictures, which is disappointing. 00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:51.220 But I think, again, you know, we're starting 00:24:51.220 --> 00:24:54.480 at one point, we're making some progress towards, 00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:58.619 you know, demonstrating information that basically 00:24:58.619 --> 00:25:02.880 it's like dormant for years. And it's going to 00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:07.119 be a process to get it out to availability to 00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:10.380 everybody to click on. But certainly, that's 00:25:10.380 --> 00:25:13.700 our intent to get it out as much as we can. I 00:25:13.700 --> 00:25:19.220 put as this time put information on biographies, 00:25:19.220 --> 00:25:22.960 for example, on PDF. Tom's done it with the history. 00:25:23.460 --> 00:25:26.460 So there are ways we can communicate that information 00:25:26.460 --> 00:25:30.839 to individuals who have an interest. But yeah, 00:25:31.180 --> 00:25:35.500 it's a lot of information. So the idea of publishing 00:25:35.500 --> 00:25:38.000 it, you know, doesn't make a lot of sense because 00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:42.519 it just is so much. But if we can electronically 00:25:42.519 --> 00:25:46.960 and through the benefit of technology, get the 00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:49.380 information out to people, then yeah, that's 00:25:49.380 --> 00:25:52.259 very much what we hope to do. Well, that certainly 00:25:52.259 --> 00:25:55.180 sounds like a project the department should be 00:25:55.180 --> 00:25:58.779 able to fundraise off of and help do, because 00:25:58.779 --> 00:26:01.319 as I say, and we've been doing Veterans Radio 00:26:01.319 --> 00:26:04.619 now for 20 years, we do a lot of writing in this 00:26:04.619 --> 00:26:07.019 area, and you often run into somebody who says, 00:26:07.480 --> 00:26:10.500 boy, I heard that story, I never knew that about 00:26:10.500 --> 00:26:15.119 my uncle. He never talked about his time in Germany 00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:19.819 or Laos or South America. And so I do think it's 00:26:19.819 --> 00:26:22.180 important that all that work that you guys put 00:26:22.180 --> 00:26:26.000 together becomes available for no other reason 00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:29.319 than those family members can search for their 00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:32.180 loved one and learn something from it. That's 00:26:32.180 --> 00:26:36.720 a great opportunity. So Tom, what's the... You 00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:39.980 know, jeez, just finish this. You two got another 00:26:39.980 --> 00:26:42.180 big project you're going to take on, or are you 00:26:42.180 --> 00:26:46.680 no longer accepting Mike's calls? Oh, well, it's 00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:50.660 funny. Mike and I both serve on Western's history 00:26:50.660 --> 00:26:54.609 department alumni advisory. Council, I think 00:26:54.609 --> 00:26:58.170 that is it and we've been on that for a number 00:26:58.170 --> 00:27:01.049 of years and they ask us the same thing with 00:27:01.049 --> 00:27:04.809 the last meeting that we attended and Mike and 00:27:04.809 --> 00:27:08.509 I just sort of looked at each other and No, because 00:27:08.509 --> 00:27:11.609 this is it was really a very intense two years 00:27:11.609 --> 00:27:15.109 worth of Worth of work and like I said when we 00:27:15.109 --> 00:27:18.130 started this We had no idea that we would end 00:27:18.130 --> 00:27:23.619 up with this body of work That's great. Mike, 00:27:24.079 --> 00:27:27.359 have you blocked Tom's calls? It sounds like 00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:30.940 he didn't block yours. No, but we have spent 00:27:30.940 --> 00:27:33.400 a lot of time together and so there is that, 00:27:33.700 --> 00:27:40.700 which both Tom and I know it has been a challenge 00:27:40.700 --> 00:27:47.180 for sure, and a good challenge I think, but neither 00:27:47.180 --> 00:27:51.119 of us anticipated how big this would become. 00:27:51.220 --> 00:27:57.480 But as an example to me, the takeaway I see, 00:27:57.859 --> 00:28:01.359 the positive takeaway is, you know, a number 00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:06.559 of the graduates, former cadets, you know, that 00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:09.079 I spoke to, a lot of them said, well, I hadn't 00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:11.779 heard from the department since I graduated 40 00:28:11.779 --> 00:28:16.839 years ago. So it told me that, you know, Even 00:28:16.839 --> 00:28:19.619 though there's an open door, there's information 00:28:19.619 --> 00:28:23.460 out there for former cadets, former commissionees 00:28:23.460 --> 00:28:29.880 to reach out to Western ROTC. Western has a lot 00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:32.339 on its plate training these people. So there 00:28:32.339 --> 00:28:35.240 isn't always a lot of outreach to those that 00:28:35.240 --> 00:28:38.700 have graduated. And I think Tom and I both discovered 00:28:38.700 --> 00:28:43.180 that that was something we could hopefully help 00:28:43.180 --> 00:28:48.910 with. Well, in 50 % of the folks responded, that 00:28:48.910 --> 00:28:50.990 number is actually much higher when you realize 00:28:50.990 --> 00:28:54.210 something like 23 % of the folks are deceased. 00:28:54.630 --> 00:28:57.910 So it shows people are willing to connect and 00:28:57.910 --> 00:29:01.410 tell their story given the opportunity. Both 00:29:01.410 --> 00:29:04.250 of you have done great work on this. It's really 00:29:04.250 --> 00:29:07.730 pretty amazing. Hopefully they will find a way 00:29:07.730 --> 00:29:10.210 to digitize it all and make it available to the 00:29:10.210 --> 00:29:14.750 general public. maybe you started something here, 00:29:14.930 --> 00:29:17.829 maybe somebody else will pick up the next piece 00:29:17.829 --> 00:29:20.250 of it. And we really appreciate the time you've 00:29:20.250 --> 00:29:24.289 given to Veterans Radio today, Tom Vance and 00:29:24.289 --> 00:29:29.009 Mike Evans, Army Vets, Western Michigan University 00:29:29.009 --> 00:29:33.609 alum. graduates with history degrees, one kind 00:29:33.609 --> 00:29:37.390 of used it, one went into trust work. So that's 00:29:37.390 --> 00:29:39.789 a whole other story for another day, isn't it, 00:29:39.910 --> 00:29:44.009 Mike? There you go. I really appreciate your 00:29:44.009 --> 00:29:47.309 time, guys. Thank you. Thank you. And I want 00:29:47.309 --> 00:29:49.069 to thank everybody for listening to Veterans 00:29:49.069 --> 00:29:52.910 Radio today. I am Jim Fossone. It's been a pleasure 00:29:52.910 --> 00:29:55.470 to be your host. I'm a veterans disability lawyer 00:29:55.470 --> 00:29:58.289 at Legal Help for Veterans. And you can reach 00:29:58.289 --> 00:30:04.279 us at 800. 693 -4800 or legalhelpforveterans 00:30:04.279 --> 00:30:07.480 .com on the web. You can follow Veterans Radio 00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:10.799 on Facebook and listen to its podcasts and internet 00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:15.400 radio shows by visiting us at veteransradio .org. 00:30:15.559 --> 00:30:19.339 That's veteransradio .org. 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