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Today we're going to hear a couple of interviews
kind of centering around the United States Navy.
One about a horrific loss of life and ship in
World War II regarding the USS Indianapolis and
actually some connections to a facility in southeast
Michigan called the Grosse Pointe War Memorial.
You'll find this fascinating, including some
history that was lost but then found. And then
we're also going to talk to a Navy veteran and
about the importance of shipbuilding and competition
with the Chinese Navy. Both are going to enlighten
you even if you're one of those army pukes. So
listen in, you'll learn something. We want to
welcome to Veterans Radio today Betsy Alexander.
She is the resident historian at the War Memorial.
And we're going to talk a little bit more about
that because that's kind of an unusual both job
and location that we want to talk about. But
what we're really focused on here today is an
article that she wrote about the USS Indianapolis
disaster and the men from Michigan who got lost
in that World War II sinking of a destroyer,
which was a big deal. Betsy, welcome to Veterans
Radio. Nice to be here. Thank you. Well, you
know, as a resident historian, you get to kind
of pick and choose, I think, subjects maybe you
want to talk about. How did you decide that you
were going to write Hell Gone Mad, which is the
story about Michigan's men of the USS Indianapolis
disaster? Well, it was an interesting thing that
happened. A lot of my stuff, it happens by happenstance.
I had some gentlemen show up at the front desk
and I got a call and it's like, Bessie, we don't
know what they want. They are looking for a plaque
or some artwork and they're looking for you.
And I went, okay. So the piece of artwork they
were looking for was a rather large piece of
the Indianapolis. It was an artist rendering
and it had supposedly signatures from some of
the survivors at the bottom. and it was supposed
to be here. And I looked in the usual spots where
this artwork would be kept at in the veterans
room and the hallways surrounding the veterans
room. And I came up with nothing. I went up to
the attic to see if somebody had stored it up
there to make me mad. Not up there. And I came
back down and I said, fellas, I'm sorry, but
I cannot find this. I will look for it. And they
said, the other thing we're looking for is this
plaque. this big plaque. And I said, what is
the big plaque? And I said, we know that you
have some here. It is for the young men who died
of the Indianapolis disaster from Michigan. And
they showed me a couple of press cuttings, very
old press cuttings. And I went, oh, I would not
have something like that here. But that seems
like that should be fairly easy to find. And
so it's like, well, it's been missing for decades.
And here's where it originally was. And it was
supposedly in, they made it sound almost like
it was in, not a VFW hall, but a gathering hall,
because the people who were in charge of it were,
I think VFW or something at the time. They were
supposed to be the stewards of it. until a new
place could be built for it downtown in the new
Civic Center. And so I thought the obvious person
to call would be my buddy who's a curator at
the Detroit Historical because I thought if you're
going to demo a building back then and you had
something that looked valuable, because I always
have to play detective in my role, the first
place I would go to is there and secondarily
then to the DIA and say, We have a giant brass
plaque that might be worth something. We have
a bust. We have a big statue. We're getting rid
of the building. Do you want this thing? We'll
drop it off right now in your parking lot. So
I called my buddy, and he said, never seen it.
It's not on the accession list. If I ever see
it, I'll call you back. And I said, ace. That's
a great deal. He found it about two months later.
Oh, my. He found it. Back up. Why did these gentlemen
want to find it? because they were the organization,
the legacy organization for the USS Indianapolis.
And they were in from out of town and they were
like, we really, really, really want to find
this. This is, you know, the big connection to
Michigan. Who could have this? Well, let's stop
here. We'll have a lot of veteran radio listeners
who are not World War II age or World War II
buffs. Tell us about the USS Indianapolis and
its role in history at that point and why this
is memorable today. The easiest way and the most
obnoxious way to remind people of what it is,
is remember when you saw the film Jaws and Quint
starts riffing on, we're going to have the sharks
coming and it's going to be like the Indianapolis
disaster. I was there and he gets all crazy looking
and a lot of kids and young adults saw that when
the film came out and went, I wonder what that
is, but they never checked into it. That is the
disaster that is discussed in the film Jaws.
This is a situation where the guys were supposedly
carrying very important parts. It was basically
the mechanism for the atomic bomb for Hiroshima.
They did not know that it was on their ship.
They were just told you're doing a top secret
thing, you're to go in this stop, this stop,
you're going to do it in record time, and then
when you're done with that, we're going to send
you off to do some drills over in the Philippines.
And they're like, okay, cool. So they delivered
the goods, not even knowing they had dropped
off this, you know, monumental thing. And they
were on their way then to these just ordinary
drilling exercises and a Japanese submarine.
who the U .S. government knew was cruising in
the area. There was four of them the government
knew about and did not tell the captain of the
ship, Captain McVeigh, saw them and just after
midnight, nailed them one night. Let me put some
context around this in terms of dates. So this
is July 30th actually of 1945. They've dropped
off the parts for the atomic bomb that's going
to end World War II, so we're almost at the end.
There's 1 ,195 crew members on this heavy cruiser,
the USS Indianapolis. A lot of guys. Yep. A lot
of very, very young guys in their teens mostly.
And the worst thing in the world happens The
ship gets torpedoed and sinks quickly. In 15
minutes or less. There's reports between 12 and
15 minutes. The first torpedo, the first two
hit the ship and the first one tore basically
the whole bow off. So the thing was continuing
to go and you're just filling with water. The
second one a couple seconds later hit the ammo
in a couple of other compartments and it just
went straight down. So you had - So really very
little chance of evacuating or - or putting over
the lifeboats or anything? Correct. Very few
lifeboats were out there. Some guys had on the
inflatable vest. Most of the guys were trapped
below. I mean, it happened that quickly. Immediately
the radios went out. They couldn't even call
down and say, you know, evacuate the ship. It
was just a complete, really fast disaster. With
guys who were also very green, they had just
picked up, most of the crew were young 17, 18,
19 year old kids. And they had just, this was
their first couple of weeks of being in service.
So they had no clue what was going on. So as
I said, there's roughly 1200 men on the ship
and not many survived. How many survived? It
got whittled down really quickly. They think
there was about, I think it was about 800 in
the water. I could be wrong on that. I'd have
to refer to my notes. Within the first 24 hours
in the water, it was down by a couple of hundred.
And they were just being, they were covered in
real heavy grade oil, which was actually sort
of a blessing because the guys apparently that
were in, that had less coverage. were found easier
by the sharks. Yeah, one of the things that's
just horrifying about this is that it happened
so fast, as I say, maybe it's 800 guys and a
couple of hundred, two to three, I think it's
300, survive ultimately. The others succumb to
the elements and the elements include sharks,
which gives you that modern movie reference you
started with in Jaws. I mean, it's just... horrific
to think about these guys out there floating
in the middle uh of the ocean there were no distress
calls no nothing no nothing and the government
abandoned them they didn't show up where they
were supposed to be the next day for the drilling
uh exercises nobody went looking for them so
you have a bunch of kids bobbing around in salt
remember salt water so not knowing they were
Thursday, they start drinking the salt water
and literally, you know, besides your tongue
swelling up and your throat closing off and it,
it makes you mad. You go mad. So you had guys
that were, you know, seeing all kinds of crazy
stuff and I'm swimming to the ship there and,
and swimming off and drowning. So there is, they
were watching each other do that and trying to
talk sense into, into their, their compatriots
who were basically killing themselves. A lot
of The young guys after a few days out there
were so depressed. They just did kill themselves.
They let go and they went under. And then there
was, you know, because of the blood, the water
and guys with injuries, it was, it was sharks.
It was a tiger sharks and I believe white tip
sharks. And apparently it was, it was very ugly.
And thank God somebody finally about the third
day flew overhead and couldn't believe what he
saw. Yeah, that's I wanted to get to that point
because it's three date like three days later
a Plane happens to fly by what's going on down
there because they had no idea no clue Where
the Indianapolis was and they had obviously lost
contact. There was no radio contact with them.
It went down so fast It was almost accidental
That they got discovered Yeah, yeah, he saw an
oil slick. So he went down and he happened to
be fooling around in the back of the aircraft
trying to fix an antenna that was trailing. And
he happened to look down. He saw an oil slick
and he's like, wait a minute, do we have, you
know, do we have like a Japanese submarine down
here laying oil? I'm going to go down. So he
went down to the surface and started seeing guys
bobbing. And as he was calling back to the base,
he's like, I've got like 10 guys down here. Wait
a minute. I've got like 60. Wait a minute. I
got like 100 some guys down here. They didn't
believe him. They still would not believe him
when he was calling back to the base. And he's
like, move, go, do something. It's hard to think.
It's hard in 2025 to put your mind in what it
was like in 1945, where there isn't kind of like
all the sophisticated gear and information and
beacons and radio wave signals for survivors
and that. I mean, it was a whole different time.
And the Indianapolis was on this secret mission
to begin with. And I guess the Navy didn't want
to acknowledge it was lost or out there. It actually
took the Navy a long time to let the U .S. public
know. that the Indianapolis went down. Talk about
that. To me, that's crazy in a world of instant
communication. It was, I mean, some of the stuff
they did was, I can only say evil. I mean, first
off, they didn't tell the captain that there
was four subs that was cruising right in there.
So it's like, why would you not tell the man
to be extra careful? Why would you not give him
an escort, which they found after the fact was
available? He could have had an escort with him.
When they kept calling in other airplanes and
ships just started diverting and talking, not
even in code saying, wait a minute, the bases
aren't responding. We need to go. There's guys
in the water. So all of those people could have
been court martial that did that over the next
few days. When they finally had everybody picked
up and collected and back on land, the government
decided to wait until they could do the announcement
that the Japanese had surrendered so that the
main headline would not be huge disaster at sea,
biggest naval disaster ever. Guys are finally
back on dry land, the rest are lost. So you had
them down in the bottom part is the secondary
headline in the huge letters everybody was reading
was about the surrender, which was one of the
final insults. Although they managed to continue
by then court -martialing the poor captain. Yeah,
I want to talk about that too, because it's in
your article. gone mad for the war memorial but
this whole idea that they sat on the disaster
and didn't didn't tell the families that had
where they had perished 900 some families or
the families the 300 some families where your
your son's still alive for like two weeks it
was it was the 15th of August 1945 because they
waited until after the atomic bombs dropped after
Japan finally surrenders. Okay, now we'll slide
it out. I had never focused on that kind of manipulation
of public transparency. It was just really evil.
I mean, it's like they kept compounding. So the
government decides with all this going on, then
people are starting to go, wait a minute, what
was this other thing that happened with these
young kids? So they decide they're gonna court
-martial Captain McVeigh saying, well, you didn't
zigzag. And that's why you ended up getting hit.
And so you endangered the crew and that and you've
done terrible things, you know, whatever. And
it's like it was it was said at the time that
even if he zigzagged, the court martial should
not have happened because he still would have
been hit. Now, to to really cap things off, the
U .S. government brought in is their chief prosecution
witness. Captain Hashimoto, the guy that torpedoed
the ship. So you have Perry Mason bringing in
the murderer to talk about what would not. And
the guy, Hashimoto got in and he said, they could
have done anything on the planet. They were so
close. They were under five miles away from me.
I have them. I'm surprised every torpedo didn't
hit them. There was no way. this man could have
escaped. He did nothing wrong. No zigzag, no
nothing. They were going to die. And that was
government. McVeigh gets court -martialed. His
career ends. It impacts the rest of his life.
Yes, very, very sadly. testified for him all
the reunions they just they still thought he
was the greatest thing they tried from the get
-go to clear his name going no this this man
should not have been court -martialed they always
called him captain even though he had a paper
you know pay grade he considered himself a captain
one of the guys and that's what they referred
to him as finally when he was 70 years old it
just took too much of a bit emotional toll he
had not only survivor's guilt But he had these
mothers and whatnot who were going, you killed
my son, you horrible man. And he walked out into
his backyard and blew his brains out. And today
we maybe have more focus than we had back then
on veteran suicide, on the emotional mental health
impacts of service. And obviously, when you're
responsible as a captain for 1200 men and only
300 come home, You can only imagine what the
burden that he had to carry on. And then the
government, the Navy, the service he's given
his life to piles on and says, it's all your
fault because you didn't steer the ship the right
way. Just an awful story. And by the time the
story gets Fixed isn't the right word, but put
back on the right path, it's too late. Well,
it came full circle, really, when you had the
fellow who was the commander then of the Indianapolis
submarine. There's been a variety of ships called
the Indianapolis over time. And that was Commander
Toti, T -O -T -I. And he was like, wait a minute.
that this guy should not have been court a court
martial. And so he kind of, you know, looking
at Indianapolis to Indianapolis, he started raising
a ruckus saying what this is complete nonsense
what happened. So he started doing all kinds
of tests with modern, you know, modern equipment
and what they knew now. And he proved and I spoke
to him and I wrote in the article for rate on
what he told me he says, I proved absolutely
positively, that there was no way, even if he
zigzagged, he was not going to be hit. The whole
thing, again, he should have never, ever been
court -martialed. They were looking for a scapegoat,
and everybody knew it. Nobody on the other side
got in trouble. None of the military guys were
not looking for them or not telling them that,
you know, there was four subs out there. One
of the subs two days before had already blown
up another American ship. They knew the four
subs were out there. And then Hashimoto spent
the rest of his life, he became apparently a
Shinto priest, and he spent the rest of his life
trying to clear McVeigh's name. Here he is, the
guy that did it. It's like, I had nothing personal,
this was orders, but... No, the guy was railroaded
by the government and then you brought me in
to testify against your guy. So it just it shows
how outrageous, outrageous it was. It also and
wearing your mantle of historian here for the
Grosse Pointe War Memorial, it also shows you
how whatever we learn in the near term to a disaster
may not be the real answer. We may not have all
the facts and Only looking back in hindsight,
and I think it was maybe in 2000, Congress exonerated
McVeigh. We're talking 60, 35 years later or
something, or 55 years later, he finally gets
exonerated. There's really this lesson to be
learned about how much credence you put in what
we know today. versus what we will know in the
future when historians like you dig into things,
talk to people, look at it from a different angle.
There's a lesson to be learned there, isn't there?
There is, and there's also, I mean, you look
at between Hashimoto and then the kid, literally
the kid that really... picked everybody up through
Iran, whether they wanted publicity because it
was a high school kid for his history day project
said, wait a minute, I've heard about this. There's
no information out there. He had just seen Jaws.
And he's like, how come I can't find information
on the USS Indianapolis? So he went out and played
detective and he interviewed, he had about 800
documents that he physically went through. He
interviewed 120 of the survivors at that point.
And he was like, This whole thing is fishing.
He did his history day report, which I'm surprised
this didn't go to the nationals. It lost out
in Florida. And I'm very involved in history
day. So that's what I also zeroed in. I was like,
these are one of our kids. He went and he proved
that that this whole thing was a bunch of nonsense
and laid it out. And he started making the rounds
of the new shows. And then it escalated up to
like the David Letterman show. And so people
are like, well, what is this? What is this thing
again? This was Jaws. and this young kid and
blah, blah, blah. And they started listening.
So the right people got together around him and
said, look, we can get you. into talk to Congress.
Why don't you go and present what you've got
in Congress? Tony came in also was pushing as
part of that. Joe Scarborough from Morning Joe
was involved in this back when he was in Congress
and he laid out what the deal was and the kid
is actually probably the one who pushed over
the top getting McVeigh exonerated and getting
the full story out as to what happened to these
guys. Compliments of The military completely
botching the whole thing. Well, it is you write
about this 12 year old. He was 12 year old student
in Florida. Hunter Scott's his name. This is
1997 and he kind of gets this all restarted again.
It's really amazing story of how how that gets
going. And and then we continue on. I see you
and you have pictures in your story which are
really fascinating about. The wreck of the USS
Indianapolis finally being found in the ocean.
Yep. Yeah, they thought that would never be fun.
It is so far down. It's way deeper than the Titanic
is. It is about as far as you can go down in
an ocean at the bottom. And because it's so far
down and there's like no movement or anything
down that far, it looks as if it just went down
yesterday. There's no rust or anything on it.
You can read very easily the number on the side.
It's like, oh yeah, that's That's the Indy. Everything
is right there and spectacular looking. So that
was, again, a bunch of civilians who went down.
This wasn't the Army or the Navy or something
doing, you know, looking for it. These were a
bunch of civilians. And let's try to find this
when we found some other wrecks. And again, it
was people going, wait a minute, we got it now.
See, this isn't right. Let's help. People keep
telling the story to try to put the thing right.
There's so many little facts that if you gather
them, they change the whole perspective. You
started with a bit of a mystery of the missing
plaque. Yep. What happened to the plaque? The
missing plaque. So Bill finds the plaque in the
back of the, I call it the bubble car garage,
in the very back of the Fort Wayne, the collections.
big old collections building down for the Detroit
Historical Society. He found that plaque and
next to it was the other plaque I had asked him,
if you ever find the plaque for Fred Elger, let
me know. And he goes, Betsy, I found both of
them together. And I'm like, oh, my God. So it's
like, OK, what are you going to do with the plaque?
Because people need to see it. And obviously,
he gets to make the final call because he's holding
the plaque now. So we give him the entire story
of the plaque. parts we know. Like I said, this
wasn't even in their records because they used
to just take stuff in willy -nilly when it was
under different management when it was a city.
And so there is a, we had a plaque unveiling
a couple of weekends ago at the Detroit Historical
Society. You can go down now and go to the arsenal
of democracy section up on the second floor.
And you can see the USS Indianapolis plaque that
was for the 70 some young kids from Michigan
who went down and it was, it was paid for. or
by the parents of the boys who died. It's very
sad to see. Oh, thank God it didn't get melted
down. I mean, you sort of go, oh no, did that
get melted down somewhere along the lines? And
you have that again in your article, a picture
of it, which is sort of moving. And it becomes,
did you ever find the other piece that the...
the folks came to the front door and asked about
which is the yes with the signatures I got a
call from one of my buddies who was in our facilities
department he's like hey betts I'm in the I'm
in the bathroom right now and there's a ship
and you know I've always wanted you know this
kid loves ships and shipwrecks and stuff and
I said take a picture not of you in the bathroom
but take a picture of what you're looking at
send it to me right now so he texted to me I
said Where are you? What bathroom are you in?
He was in where the facilities guys go wee -wee,
you know. Oh. I don't go in here. That's where
the dudes do their, you know, whatever. And I
said, that thing is coming off the wall. Thank
you very, very much. And so I got a hold in of
Jeff Ortiz and the guys. I said, we found it.
It's in the. The maintenance guy's bathroom.
That's hilarious. I was mad. You don't put something
like that, which is almost a sacred artifact,
into... the loo for a bunch of guys. So they
asked them if they could show the piece of artwork.
So that was also at the at the unveiling ceremony.
I lent them that. So that was on an easel. People
could look at that. The gentlemen who have signed
it are all deceased now. And we rehung it. I
spoke to our CEO and I said, this is going somewhere
respectful. So it is right outside of our veterans
room now in the corridor going into the Fred
Elger where there's other military and historical
things up on the wall. So everybody now can see
it. So let's use the last few minutes here. Let's
talk about the Grosse Pointe War Memorial and
its historic and continuing honoring of men and
women who serve in the military. When the Elger
House was dedicated and given over, free of charge
by Mary and Elger, she said, you can have this
as long as it's for two purposes. Half of the
mission is to honor veterans and those who never
came back and to put on programs, keep their
memory alive, try to serve them. And the other
half is for community stuff, classes, speakers,
learning how to paint, things of that that are
cultural. That's what you're supposed to be doing
with my house. Here is my estate. And so what
we try to do internally is we have a veterans
community, a veterans committee part of some
of us who are interested in veterans affairs.
And we try to do something every month for veterans.
We have a vet to vet meeting, and then every
other month we have a speaker. So the loss of
the USS Indianapolis in World War II was a devastating.
naval loss, all kinds of men. So that puts you
a little history in it, but you gotta admit it's
pretty funny that the painting, the artifact
that really was trying to keep that history alive
ended up being hung in the maintenance men's
bathroom. So sometimes histories... pretty damn
funny. So let's have a few words from our sponsor
and then we're going to talk about another naval
subject which is shipbuilding and competing against
our greatest rival for world power in the future
which will be China. Military veterans touch
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-693 -4800. We want to welcome to Veterans Radio
today Navy veteran Jonathan Page. Jonathan Page
is a PhD but don't hold that against him we're
going to talk about all things shipbuilding.
John, welcome to Veterans Radio. Morning, thank
you. I'm happy to be here. I'm glad you found
me and always happy to talk about the Navy. As
you know, you can take a man out of the Navy,
but you can't take the Navy out of the man. Well,
and you're sitting, you're sitting now in the
Midwest and I know I often look back, you know,
I wish I was on the water again. You know, I
wish I was on the ocean. This storm would look
great on the ocean. So yeah, I can relate that
you can't take the sea out of the Navy man here.
But let me set this up a little bit. So you are
a product native of Canton, Michigan, which is
between Detroit and Ann Arbor. You went off to
the Naval Academy. We're gonna talk about that
a little bit. You did active duty in the Navy,
and we'll talk a little bit about that. And then
you went on to a couple of interesting assignments
as the Deputy Ship Design Manager for NAVSEA.
a Futureship Requirements Officer for the Office
of the Chief of Naval Operations for about five
years. And now it's been a couple of years that
you are a professor at the University of Michigan
Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering School.
So some very... well -earned credentials in the
field of ship planning and building. And that's
a little bit what we want to talk about because
we saw you quoted in an article talking about
how the Navy wants more young people to pursue
careers in shipbuilding. So we'll get to that
and we're gonna get to the current projects he's
working on. But Jonathan, how did a nice kid
like you from Canton, Michigan end up at the
Naval Academy? Great question to start with.
I had no choice, is kind of the funny answer.
You were running from the law? Is that what you're
suggesting? Fortunately not. Not that I was the
best high school performer. I got my fair share
of... trouble, but I also paid attention to grades,
played soccer, ran track, national honor society,
et cetera. Now, the almost comedic part of the
story that comes full circle at the end is my
parents did actually dig up the letter of rejection.
that I got from the University of Michigan. Oh,
there you go. So as a senior in high school,
I did not get accepted to the university where
I now work. But I did still go through the process
for the Naval Academy, talked with the soccer
coach. And it was an alternate to the military
academy. My dad had grown up in upstate New York.
so during a family trip out there one summer
in high school we visited there and Short story
is it didn't appeal to me, but then my dad who
was a Navy veteran himself I should point out
served from 71 to 78 USS Inchon among other things
back when it was an LPH He was like hey if you're
interested in the military category there's you
know there's this other one down in Annapolis
the naval county should check that out and you
know he He grows a little bit taller as he says
it, you know, because he's a veteran himself.
So I said, sure, I'll check that out. And of
course, it was great. You go and you visit the
academy. It's beautiful. The architecture, the
structure, you're right there on the bay, you
know, everything that we Navy folks like. And
so I continued to pursue it and everything involved
in that with, you know, letters from senators
at the time and was ultimately accepted because
it was the only place I actually got accepted.
Yeah, you had a really narrow focus on what you
wanted to do and that you know obviously made
all the difference. Don't let him kid you folks.
He's got a hell of a resume academically. His
bachelor's is from the Naval Academy in systems
engineering. He has a master's in engineering
management from MIT. He has a naval engineering
degree from MIT and I think your PhD in design
engineering is also from MIT so we're going to
kind of not hold all of those degrees against
you because you got all this great experience.
Tell us about your experience in the Navy a little
bit. So starting to pull the threads all the
way through a little bit I have always been interested
in engineering and so part of the decision was
that Annapolis is known, you know, the Naval
Academy is known to have good engineering. And
so while I was there, performed well enough that
I was given an option to become an engineering
duty officer. The first part of what that community
likes is we want to make sure as we repair, acquire,
and do all the things that the engineering duty
community does with ships, we want to have served
on ships. So we know what it's like for the sailors
and officers that are out in harm's way months
at a time. So I started off on DDG 63, USS Stedum
out of San Diego. I was the communications officer.
But got fully qualified on on the ship For you
know topside driving the ship, you know officer
of the watch officer the deck Everything entailed
with that and there my surface warfare pin on
that ship under a slew of great leaders from
Dave Malin to Charlie Williams and others before
I transferred to the engineering community. So
now instead of operating DEGs, now I was repairing
them. So I went immediately to a qualification
tour at the Southwest Regional Maintenance Center,
which is the hub of maintenance, repair, and
modernization for for the Pacific fleet there
and most of the Pacific fleet, for the combatant
fleet and amphibious fleet there in San Diego.
And did some repairs on LHDs and most notably
had a really unfortunate and cool project where
the main reduction gear on USS Halsey, DDG -97,
it blew up for just to... shorten what actually
happens but main reduction gear severely damaged
so we have to perform open heart surgery right
on a ship right we got to take out the guts we
got to take out the main reduction gear the thing
that takes power from the engines and puts it
down the shaft right it's like the transmission
of the ship so we had to take out this 12 foot
by 14 foot by 16 foot 60 ton thing out of the
middle of the ship and put in a brand new one
and then align it and get the ship back operational
again. So just a really cool experience to kind
of like take a ship apart and put it back together
over the course of seven months with that project.
Yeah, just fantastic. Crawling around, diving
in the bilges, looking at alignments, shaft alignment,
you know, gear bluing and teeth contact and just
learning all this cool engineering stuff on what
really makes a ship literally go, right, and
sail. Now are you in the West Coast at this point
or the East Coast? Correct still that this was
in San Diego still correct yeah great question.
And let me back you up because I think I shortchanged
you how many total years do you have did you
have in active duty Navy? 21 years total. Okay
21 years active duty and then these other assignments
that I mentioned in the office of the CNO that
that's after active duty. No. That's part of
the activity. Okay got it got it. And what kept
driving you to like not only pick up the masters
but the PhD and kind of these are great opportunities
that the Navy was presenting and you took advantage
of it sounds like. For the most part slightly
different but yeah the the nuance difference
so for the master's degree Right after that repair
tour, that's when I went to MIT the first time
to earn the two master's degrees. As part of
the engineering duty community, we want everyone.
We are the technical leaders of the Navy. And
so we need to make sure that we have good technical
chops. And so everyone in the. EDO community
is required as part of their qualification to
get a technical master's degree. And we have
about 10 billets per year at MIT as one potential
option to get that technical master's degree.
So much of an eagle to have me. I applied, and
I crossed my fingers, and I hold my breath. Luckily,
I was fortunate to be one of the ones accepted
into the cohort that started in 2008 with a bunch
of other great folks that are now, you know,
many of them are still in the Navy. You know,
the operations officer at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard
was one of my classmates. Somebody running the
dive locker for NAVSEA was another one of my
classmates. Someone running Norfolk Naval Shipyard,
another one. So just an incredible wardroom,
incredible group of people that are also now
still doing great things still in uniform. So
the EDO community required me to get those first
two degrees. In between right sort of a little
bit of a fast -forward then I wouldn't worked
on DDG 1000 right so I I started on that ship
when when she was pieces and parts all around
the shipyard up in Bath, Maine and Helped assemble
her and resolve technical issues there and got
her to float off at least before I left that
tour and about it was about a year or two before
she left the IW on sort of the maiden voyage
and the trials. After that I went to NASCO. So
back to the West Coast to be the supervisor of
shipbuilding representative down there. Basically
the government oversight for the shipyard who
was building the expeditionary staging bases
for us. So I accepted delivery of the USNS Chessy
Puller. Right, or excuse me, Louis B. Puller,
we all know him. Right, but yeah, so USS Louis
B. Puller, so, you know, first ship of the class,
but, you know, similar to that repair tour, you
know, back. crawling the ship with the contractor,
with NASCO, with the folks working for me, looking
at quality, looking at cost, making sure that
the government, that the Navy is getting the
product that we want out of those ships. And
just a fantastic experience working through some
of the issues with drainage and AFFF for firefighting
and some of these new systems for these types
of ships. Well, we probably could do a whole
other segment about the berthing quarters on
ship and the relationship between real sleep
and what's needed and you get on a Navy ship.
We've talked to Dr. Cordell before on this issue.
It's a real issue for Navy folks. But what I
wanna move forward on before we chew up a lot
of time again is you've had that shipyard, shipbuilding
experience and as we hear about the country's
national security needs for a more robust Navy
and that we're not keeping up with shipbuilding
from places like Korea and certainly our adversaries
in China, is that really a concern in the upper
echelons of the Navy and how do we attack it?
It is, so from For the last two experiences I
had, where I was the Deputy Ship Design Manager
and where I was on CNO stat, I was the Future
Surface Requirements Officer. So helping to set
requirements for future frigates and unmanned
vehicles and future destroyers and everything
that's sort of five, 10, 15, 40 years out there.
We do understand One way we can think about an
issue sometimes is that quantity is its own quality,
right? Meaning that right now, the US Navy knows
we have better ships, right? We have the best
ships in the world, and we know we can be better.
And we know China has more ships. What we don't
want is that they have more ships and better
ships. And so knowing that we have better ships,
we know we want more ships so that that equation
never heads in that direction, right? So it is,
we know it is important and what we'd like is
to hear that Congress is talking about it. The
president is talking about it. The Navy is talking
about it. Industry is talking about it. It is
bipartisan, bicameral. Everybody agrees and everybody's
speaking along the lines that and it's not just
military vessels. Part of the value chain for
Japan and Korea and China is that they have a
very robust commercial shipbuilding business
as well that aids them being good at their military
side of the business. So we understand we want
to do the same, you know, create a rising tide
through the whole industry, both commercial and
military. And so part of the language that we're
trying to get leaders to start using is what
we call the fourth coast. because we have the
East Coast, we have the West Coast, we have the
Gulf Coast, and then we have the Michigan Coast,
the Great Lake Coast, right? So we have a lot
of coast here that we can use where we can have
shipyards. We have large bodies of water that...
are protected where we can run experiments and
figure some of this stuff out before sending
it out on the high seas. And so we're trying
to create a language about the fourth coast here
in the Great Lakes where there's a lot of opportunity,
a lot of skilled workers, a lot of talent in
both manufacturing and engineering. And through
that awareness, bring some of that business here
to help the nation do what we need to do. Congress
has to fund all this largely, except if you're
talking on the commercial side. But this is a
long -term problem. It takes both shipbuilding,
yards, and facilities, but it also requires the
right type of people. And I think that's where
I want to go next is... Talk about your view,
because you've sat at the top of this thing looking
down, about what we should be doing in terms
of getting more people interested in shipbuilding
and the maritime industry as a career. Great
question. Yeah, I mean, nobody thinks about,
at least in the Midwest necessarily, about a
maritime shipbuilding career being in the trades,
and there's a lot of trades that have to be involved
here. You're working on part of that pipeline
at engineering schools, but part of that pipeline
is not straight up PhDs, is it? It's really the
trades. A little bit of yes to all. So actually,
yeah, you started sparking some neurons, so thank
you for that. I think what the largest problem
we have in terms of getting folks into these
trades and disciplines is simply awareness. So
part of it for the Midwest, for the state of
Michigan, for the Great Lake region is we have
great manufacturers from the auto industry to
others. We know how to build stuff here. We did
it in World War II. We haven't forgotten that,
right? We still know how to do that here. Part
of what I've discovered in the two years here
in Ann Arbor is people just aren't aware. We
call it sea blindness. Many people aren't aware
of the maritime trades and that 70 % of the world
is ocean, 80 % of the population of the world
lives within 100 miles of the coast. 90 % of
international trade goes by water and like over
95 % of data goes in undersea cables, right?
It's all happening in the background that we
in the sea services are kind of running the world,
but we're just letting it happen. We're just
moving goods and making things happen. And it
doesn't really hit the news until a ship uh goes
aground in the Suez Canal and brings everything
to a halt and then you know Amazon deliveries
don't get here right now we now we care now we
care yeah right and so I found true awareness
and and awareness of the opportunity uh right
so so here in the College of Engineering you
know any uh I'll say average high school senior
gets accepted here to the College of Engineering.
They immediately, they already know, well there's
aeronautical engineering, there's civil engineering,
there's mechanical engineering, chemical engineering.
Nobody really knows that there is this thing
called naval engineering. It's its own discipline
that has its own specialties that does this really
cool thing. Build the ships that make the world
go round. and move 90 % of the goods that we
look at in our houses every day. And so just
giving them that awareness and that there's opportunity.
There are jobs and actually well -paying jobs
that contribute to that. Like people convert
because it's fun, right? These ships, right?
If you like... complication and complexity right
I mean it's a floating city it moves it's got
sanitation it's got recreation it's got you know
mission equipment right that like firefighting
police everything that you need a short like
put it on a ship and make it move around the
world right it's it's it's fun to me at least
the complexity is fun Well, it certainly is a
complex system. The bigger they are, the more
complex they are. And you're a guy who's been
thinking about, well, what's this going to look
like 15 years from now or 20 years from now?
The speed of innovation on weapons systems and
electronic systems and propulsion systems is
really quite amazing. And I would think that's
where a lot of the excitement that maybe people
don't understand is there's all this technology
happening. Correct and along those lines and
along the lines of Midwest sort of you know,
Fourth Coast versus East Coast, West Coast, Gulf
Coast something else we need to realize 70 %
of the value of a ship is created outside the
shipyard. So it would be great to have shipyards
here and build ships in Fincantieri, right? Up,
you know, at our sort of northern border there
with, you know, I guess the southern border of
the northern peninsula, right? There with Wisconsin,
right? So they build frigates up there and that's
great. And having shipyards is great, but 70
% of the value doesn't need to be at a shipyard,
right? We can build pieces and parts. We can
build... pumps, we can build skids, we can build
pipes and other things here in the Midwest to
go to shipyards and help them be more efficient
and effective at final assembly, so to speak.
So just incredible. opportunity in that sense
as well here in the Midwest to really add value
into the supply chain for these things, whether
or not the shipyard is actually here. And so
incredible opportunity for the trades, incredible
opportunity for engineers, and I think just some
of that awareness of being able to get into this
business and industry is something that will
help tremendously. You know real interesting
I would never have guessed that percentage You
know 70 % of the values from stuff built outside
the shipyard. That's a very interesting way to
think about it Let me switch gears to something
else that you mentioned you mentioned What's
the future of unmanned Vehicles that the Navy
might use So there is I think that we recognize
that that is an important piece of the capability
that we need to build in our future fleet. That
there are some jobs and some missions that are
inherently conducted by humans, especially when
you get to a point where you're pressing a button,
where something launches and goes somewhere,
right? But there are other... levels of automation,
levels of autonomy for steering, for navigation,
for machinery operation, where there are some
incredible benefits that unmanned vessels or
autonomy bring for the United States Navy. I
get the sense the commander, Dr. Page, was being
coy and didn't want to go too far into the Navy's
plans for unmanned vessels, probably a subject
for the future. And we didn't actually get to
talk about how artificial intelligence or AI
factors into the Navy plan, so we'll have to
have them back. Hope you enjoyed these two stories
on naval history, naval future, some things to
think about in terms of the United States National
Defense and some of what's occurring throughout
the world and why it's important that Congress
fund and that communities support and people
support naval shipyards. So a great discussion.
We're closing out the year here. Can't believe
another one's gone by. And until next time, when
Dale Throneberry is back and we get into 2026,
we want to thank you for listening to Veterans
Radio. I'm Jim Fossone. You can find our podcasts
and things at veteransradio .org. And until next
time on Veterans Radio, you are dismissed.