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post something new every week, and you're going
to find it informative. We want to welcome to
Veterans Radio today, Jenny Chan. She is going
to tell us about a passion project, Pacific Atrocities
Education, which has turned into a decade journey
and longer. Now, Jenny, welcome to Veterans Radio.
Thank you for having me. Well, we were joking
earlier, you know, you went to the University
of Illinois at Champaign with got an economics
and statistics degree. You now live in San Francisco,
where the weather and the food is better. But
along the way, you became the co -founder and
director of Pacific Atrocities Education, which
is a 501c3 nonprofit focused on public history
of World War II in the Asia Pacific theaters.
That's a big leap from somebody in economics
So tell us how this idea got planted in your
brain that well, I'll just do a little bit of
this work Yeah, so let me tell you about this.
So thank you for having me on I'm pretty sure
you and thank you for having Quinn Cho on as
well very recently so we well when When I was
a kid, I loved watching anime. In fact, I watched
anime so much that I eventually started learning
Japanese and I was able to like passed the language
needed for SAT from my Japanese classes. And
my grandma would have always been like, oh my
gosh, those Japanese people are evil. You're
being brainwashed right now. No more Doraemon.
And I had just thought that my grandma was being
racist. And so after she passed away, we found
this box of items about And it's from her World
War Two days from military yen to raise ration
coupons. And I because I grew up in the United
States, I never really learned about World War
Two. Whenever we learn about World War Two is
90 percent Hitler. So I felt pretty disconnected
to what we what was taught and. Like what my
family had gone through and let's stop there
because your grandmother was uh lived in hong
kong at the time of uh in pre world war ii and
she was of chinese descent so yes her experiences
were nothing like the experiences of those in
the european theater so you're right it wasn't
taught you didn't know about it and that box
really became sort of pandora's box it opened
up all kinds of things you needed to go learn
about didn't it yes and i also learned that in
1941 what she was describing for three years
eight months also coincided with america's involvement
with the war because hong kong was attacked eight
hours after pearl harbor was attacked so the
three years eight months that she was describing
was also how the duration of when america was
in the war as well And so yes, that's an interesting
point. I didn't realize Hong Kong was attacked
right after Really the same day as Pearl Harbor
and and and I know the Philippines were as well
There was a multi -prong attack going on on the
day that in the United States we Think about
December 7th only as Pearl Harbor Day But there
was this multi -prong attack throughout the Yes
in the Pacific and Singapore was also attacked
in the same day. And in fact, it was very interesting
because recently I read Lee Kuan Yew's book he
was the Singapore Prime Minister and At the same
time that Pearl Harbor was attacked like 12 hours
later He almost got killed in the massacre that
was happening in Singapore as well. So in terms
of Pearl Harbor, it was not just Pearl Harbor,
it was all these other Southeast Asia countries
that were also attacked around the same time.
And again, you open up your grandmother's box,
start seeing some of her historical memorabilia
that she lived with in World War II, and where
did that lead you next? Well, and then I wanted
to read more about this so I read the rape of
nine king by the late Iris Chang and I thought
wow This is very fascinating and she also went
to you of I I also went to you of I and Then
I was I went I really went into a rabbit hole
and at the time I read The Rising Sun by John
Toland. I don't know if you've heard of this
book or read this book. It's two volumes. And
it was very hard. I went on eBay. I kept ordering
volume one, volume two, and then they kept shipping
me volume one. And like 12 tries later, I finally
got volume one and volume two. And that really
piqued my interest because I'm like, why is this
so hard to get? Volume one and volume two together
and then and also around the same time a lot
of documents were getting declassified at the
National Archives. So after I read that I was
trying to verify some facts. I also read the
Death Factory by Sheldon Harris. It's about Unit
731. And because of his books, a lot of the documents
were declassified. And so then I went into National
Archives and really tried to see what was happening
during World War II. And then it led to eventually...
digitizing a million pages from that that stop
don't don't skip over that the amount of effort
to digitize a million pages of declassified work
crime documents really from the national archives
and and victim testimony and survivor testimony
this this is way beyond looking at the box and
seeing what grandma had um and This is, I guess,
after you founded Pacific Atrocities Education
in 2014. This is all part of this 10 -year history.
Yeah, so after I got through, I finally got the
second volume of The Rising Sun, and then I thought,
wow, I really want to do more research. I want
to go into the history field. But at the time,
There's no nonprofit that is focused on Pacific
Asia during World War Two. And if you think about
it, World War Two in Pacific Asia is way more
relevant than Holocaust to America. Because you
have Pearl Harbor, you have the very famous photo
of Iwo Jima, right? And Americans were very involved
in this. Asian war and it's like we don't really
hear about it even yeah, and so I Thought there's
really something to it And that's why I started
the nonprofit and thought well if there's no
job out there for me to research this part Then
maybe I can start something and and this has
turned into a project that Has created an amazing
amount of content about these conflicts, both
between the Japanese and the Chinese, the Japanese
and the US, but really focused on what was going
on in China and Singapore. Tell us what the focus
is and what kind of original content you guys
have created. Yeah, so let me go back from like
10 years ago So one of our first project was
I actually went to China to interview these comfort
women that were in China and They I mean because
whenever you mention comfort woman is always
Korean and then there was like all kinds of documents
out there about the Korean comfort woman But
apparently I learned that wherever the Japanese
was invading, there was a comfort women system.
And I was scrolling in social media and I found
that there were still some Chinese comfort women
alive. So I went and interviewed them and that
was one of my first work on the comfort women
issue. And they were living in Shaanxi and just
seeing those people firsthand really made an
impression on me. Like these were, they were
like systematically raped every single day. And
I was talking to this woman who ended up burying
her child. Because she was pregnant after the
war and she didn't know she didn't know what
to do with it Her mom was like, okay, let's just
kill the child and then they buried it in the
cave and I thought wow these and like and this
affected like millions of people and I thought
it to myself Wow, if it really affected millions
of people why is this so black hole in this history?
And so Yeah, so that was one of the first project
then like I said Did you find that there's a
lot of Chinese history and books and documentaries
focused on this period, or has it really pretty
much been ignored? I think maybe in the last
five years it's been researched, but when I was
getting started I couldn't really find the source.
in a lot of these contexts. And so when I was
getting started, there was really not too much
out there. I have been sharing a lot of what
I have digitized to scholars in China as well
so that they can produce work. uh... they have
been for example uh... when i was taking three
in the seven three one i got really obsessed
over it so i went to the floor stop and and explain
to people veteran radio listeners who maybe didn't
listen to my prior interview with quite sure
where we talked about unit seven three one tell
us what it is and then go back to it to what
you're explaining Yes, so UNICEF 731 was a human
experimentation lab and bioweapons production
center in Japan -occupied China in Manchuria
and in Harbin. It was basically operated by Imperial
Japanese Army, a man named Ishishiro because
he thought that well if the world is signing
a Geneva Convention then maybe there's something
to germ warfare so he decided to weaponize the
germs so all the horrible things which we've
read about that the Nazis did in terms of human
experimentation the Japanese were doing similar
things freezing people to death to see how frostbite
was, and developing germ warfords, and injecting
people to see how long they'd last. I mean, again,
Unit 731 is just unknown largely here in the
U .S. Yes. So let's go back. You were saying
as you were doing your research on Unit 731,
Yes, so at this time I read the book The Death
Factory by Sheldon Harris and in the first volume,
I read both first edition and second edition
and I found that the difference was that in the
first edition he talked about how the POWs, the
US ally POWs were captured and also used for
human experimentation. And in the second volume,
he took that off. It's redacted. And so I went
over to National Archives, and I looked over
the records. And apparently, after his first
edition, the Congress decided to have a meeting
and say that, oh, basically, there was really
no POWs that were used for human experimentation.
And that led to the second edition. But from
my recent research, I realized that they did
use POW as human research. So his first edition
was correct. And when I was there at the National
Archive, I met like other scholars and then like,
you know, you network and you chat a little bit.
And I realized that a lot of like Chinese scholars
because of visa issue, they probably just go
to the National Archive for like a week and think
that they can scan the whole like primary source
from, you know, from, from, yeah, they think
that they can scan like thousands of pages in
one week, which is naive. So I told them, hey,
you know, maybe I can just upload it onto a box
for you. on the internet. And so that's what
I've been doing. And I really just want to know,
I really just wanted to scan the historical truth
and provide primary source documents for people
to research more about World War Two as well.
And you've had Quinn Cho come on to, I mean,
gone on to the show. And the Quinn Cho research
is also very interesting because He signed up
for an internship with us for like two summers.
And then he was working on, you know, Burma,
China, India at first, which was another very
untalked about topic. But Joseph Stilwell from
the United States played like a huge part of
that conflict. And so then he was working on
the second project. And then I told him, hey,
Quinn, can you imagine if no one knows about,
you know, S .S. Woffman from from Nazi Germany
and he's like yeah and I'm like okay there's
quantum army from Japan which like is so unknown
about and there's no one who is gone who has
written a book about this. There's like this
huge literature gap and so then that started
his journey of researching for that book as well.
Well that's a good point. Your work at Pacific
Atrocities isn't just covering just the war the
World War II, it looks at sort of what leads
up to it, which is that Quantum Army period in
Manchuria and the Nanking Massacre and a lot
of other pieces around just the Japanese Imperial
Army fighting U .S. It looks at all those things
that it's doing in the other Asian countries.
which again we have so little information on
here in in the United States and certainly not
in our history books. Right and there's a political
reason for that because after World War II during
the Cold War, so Unit 731, the director of the
Unit 731 decided to fake his own death and have
his little funeral and the CIA found him. And
he was alive and well, and the CIA decided that
because his human research project has been so
successful and you cannot replicate that ever
again because of ethics, then they bought the
research and offered him immunity. And so that
became a part of the public amnesia, I think.
And also, when the Soviets captured Manchuria
after World War II, the Soviets then had a trial.
And during this trial, the Western media played
it off as if it was a communist propaganda trial.
And so then Unit 731 became like this, oh, it
was communist propaganda. And so I think politics
had a lot to do with... Undoubtedly, and you
feel the ripples of this through history, and
you can see where, well, Japan became an ally
of the US in future years, and China now is the...
kind of enemy or future enemy of the US. And
so that shapes how your history gets told if
you don't go all the way to the source documents
and do the hard work you guys are doing, doesn't
it? Yeah. And so I find that is, I mean, you
can say it's kind of disgusting why I mean, this
history is not told, right? I mean, a lot of
Americans sacrificed their lives out in the Pacific
and their stories are not told. And I was talking
to a descendant from of a POW and her father
survived hellships and hellships were how they
transferred POWs from, you know, where they surrendered
to a prisoner labor camp. I'm pretty sure you've
watched River Quay. Sure, sure. Yeah. And she
was saying that, you know, the stories are barely
told and it's just One of those things is that
the Japanese had a very high death rate among
POWs as compared to the Germans. And part of
that was they didn't have any food themselves.
And so one, you know, killing one more POW meant
one less mouth to feed. I mean, there's a whole
history of not only cultural, but practical issues
when the Japanese were on the Philippines, for
example, and other islands. in the in the asian
pacific but but as you've built this research
out you've done books articles teaching resources
blogs podcasts um education we're now doing a
um you know james bradley from flags of our fathers
yes we're now doing a podcast series with him
because he also saw our work and reach out and
then now he wants to talk so yeah so Our YouTube
channel Pacific Front Untold now has James Bradley
as guest on there regularly. Just a wonderful
elevation of the work that you guys are doing.
But talk a little bit of why, I mean, this takes
a lot of energy to keep going for as long as
you've been going. Talk to us a little bit about
why you feel it still matters. Yes, it still
matters because. Today, what we're seeing in
Taiwan, what we're seeing in terms of US, Japan,
China, that all stemmed from World War II. For
example, just last month, the Prime Minister
of Sanae, Prime Minister Sanae from Japan is
doing some hawkish talking. And really, there's
no historical context in terms of mainstream
media about why Chinese people were so offended.
And also, she worked for Shinzo Abe, who was
assassinated a couple of years ago, but his grandfather
was actually one of the key architect of the
Manchurian occupation. economist. And he had
drafted up how to exploit Manchuria. But because
of politics, the Cold War politics, Eisenhower
then rescued him from Sugamo prison, and he went
from a war criminal to a prime minister within
10 years. And so then when you see that line
of like, people who escaped not just justice,
but also got into power, because Prime Minister
Sanae frequently visited the Yasukuni shrine
where they worshiped war criminals. And also
she was endorsed by one of the ex -prime ministers,
Prime Minister Aso. And so then you have this
line of denial lists, right? And so then I feel
like if I don't do the work that I do, Other
people are going to forget and people are going
to cover up what they have done in the past And
if for me as an American, I don't think that's
the right thing to do, you know So that's why
I think today that's why it still matters today
and we still need to push that information out
there because we're getting into a dangerous
area of you know going to war with China without
contacts and That's a World War III that is going
to be very disastrous for everyone. And we certainly
in the United States don't have that historical
context of why this nation and that nation have
certain entrenched attitudes or don't believe
what was said because they still remember what
was done. So again, this puts that all in a little
context. I'm wondering if you've run into any
political headwinds because not everything you
are reporting on, which has been hidden for a
while, is all that popular. Oh, for sure. I mean,
it is a very scary place on social media. In
fact, you have to be like pretty brave to talk
about it. I've come to that conclusion. And like,
sometimes I'm like happy that our videos and
whatnot go viral. But then right after that,
you get like a search of people saying like,
oh, that didn't happen. For example, when I was
talking about comfort women. a bunch of people
were saying oh they were highly paid prostitution
oh this is ccp talking point this never happened
blah blah blah blah blah like the list goes on
and and then like we have people who would um
have profile names such as like hideki tojo who
was like I think it's like an equivalent of Hitler.
So imagine if someone like named a profile named
Hitler and then like start saying some like basically
garbage things and then like calling you a liar.
Just basically denying that this whole like history
had happened. So yeah, you're right. And to say
that our I mean, I think our truth is really
against the narrative that is trying that you
know the mainstream is trying to portray but
it's just what it is it's just historical truth
well and that's that's that's the beauty of going
to the source material whether that source material
is the national archives or going to china and
talking to women uh you uh explained earlier
you're you speak japanese you also speak chinese
yes so there's nobody in the middle when these
stories are being told to you you're able to
actually listen to these women and other survivors
and know firsthand that you're getting the source
material correct. Yes. Again, this is not an
easy passion project to keep going. If folks
are interested in helping you in some regards,
is there a funding opportunity? Yeah, you can
donate on pacificatrocities .org. And you can
also subscribe on our YouTube Pacific Front Untold.
And yeah, and the reason why our branding for
our YouTube is different than our website is
because if you talk about atrocities, then your
whole channel gets a shadow ban. So we have to,
we have to go against the algorithm a little
bit here. I guess I can understand that in today's
everything's controlled by an algorithm. As you
go forward, do you, I mean, are you looking at
like, okay, this is the next five years or next
10 years. How long does this passion project
continue? It continues on as long as we have
items to go through. And what you see on our
website is really an iceberg of our research.
Um, we have a lot more to process in the back
end. I see still like at least five years of
work being pushed out there just because of this
literature gap. There's really, there's, there's
a lot of untold history out there. I'm really
amazed at the books that you can get if you go
to that website, pacificatrosseus .org and go
to the book link and go look at the books. I
encourage veteran radio listeners to go do that.
Maybe your grandfather fought in the Pacific
and you don't know much about it. This is one
place to go. There's something like 19 million
Asian Americans in the country. The population
makes up about 6 % of the U .S. population. If
you're listening to this and you think, I want
to know more about this cultural issue that I've
missed out on in my history classes, go to pacificatrocities
.org. Talk to us about your audience. I don't
want to scare people off to make them think,
well, this is just for like high brow historians.
That's not your audience, is it? No, that's not
our audience at all. Our audience are like...
people who are really interested like I said
some of the POW descendants some of the everyday
people who want to know more especially nowadays
that you know they read the news and then they
don't people are starting to really not trust
the narrative do you see that do you see that
happening oh absolutely there's a real thirst
for more direct information information people
can check out themselves You're doing great work,
Jenny, and you're welcome back any time to highlight
some of the work that you're doing or the authors,
as we did with Quinn Cho. We were glad to speak
to him as well. Great. Thank you so much for
having me. And I want to thank everybody for
listening to Veterans Radio today. I am Jim Fossone.
It's been a pleasure to be your host. I'm a Veterans
disability lawyer at Legal Help for Veterans,
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