WEBVTT 00:00:05.160 --> 00:00:09.000 All across America and around the world, this 00:00:09.000 --> 00:00:15.140 is Veterans Radio. This is Veterans Radio. Good 00:00:15.140 --> 00:00:18.739 day. I'm Jim Fosson. I'm the Officer of the Deck 00:00:18.739 --> 00:00:21.179 today here on Veterans Radio and thanks for joining 00:00:21.179 --> 00:00:23.899 us. We've got some interesting stories for you. 00:00:24.059 --> 00:00:26.199 We always want to remind you, you can find more 00:00:26.199 --> 00:00:29.620 about Veterans Radio at its Facebook site or 00:00:29.620 --> 00:00:32.799 at the web, veteransradio .org. Where we're on 00:00:32.799 --> 00:00:35.979 the web 24 -7, you can find a lot of our podcasts 00:00:35.979 --> 00:00:39.380 there as well. We post new ones every Tuesday, 00:00:39.500 --> 00:00:43.840 so you can get a new story, a new interview, 00:00:43.939 --> 00:00:46.840 something you didn't know before by going to 00:00:46.840 --> 00:00:49.700 veteransradio .org. 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We 00:01:32.079 --> 00:01:35.799 just want to remind you that Veterans Radio podcasts 00:01:35.799 --> 00:01:39.480 are available on all your favorite streaming 00:01:39.480 --> 00:01:44.319 platforms including rss .com, Apple Podcasts, 00:01:44.090 --> 00:01:49.650 Spotify, YouTube Podcasts, iHeartRadio, and Reeves 00:01:49.650 --> 00:01:52.670 Across America Radio. So wherever you are, you 00:01:52.670 --> 00:01:56.329 can find us, whether it's on your mobile phone 00:01:56.329 --> 00:01:58.709 or your computer or your laptop, your tablet, 00:01:59.250 --> 00:02:02.510 but listen in to Veterans Radio Podcasts. We 00:02:02.510 --> 00:02:04.790 post something new every week, and you're going 00:02:04.790 --> 00:02:11.500 to find it informative. We want to welcome to 00:02:11.500 --> 00:02:15.560 Veterans Radio today, Jenny Chan. She is going 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:21.060 to tell us about a passion project, Pacific Atrocities 00:02:21.060 --> 00:02:26.039 Education, which has turned into a decade journey 00:02:26.039 --> 00:02:29.939 and longer. Now, Jenny, welcome to Veterans Radio. 00:02:30.340 --> 00:02:33.139 Thank you for having me. Well, we were joking 00:02:33.139 --> 00:02:35.039 earlier, you know, you went to the University 00:02:35.039 --> 00:02:37.759 of Illinois at Champaign with got an economics 00:02:37.759 --> 00:02:41.800 and statistics degree. You now live in San Francisco, 00:02:41.860 --> 00:02:45.680 where the weather and the food is better. But 00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:49.539 along the way, you became the co -founder and 00:02:49.539 --> 00:02:52.560 director of Pacific Atrocities Education, which 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:56.340 is a 501c3 nonprofit focused on public history 00:02:56.340 --> 00:02:59.719 of World War II in the Asia Pacific theaters. 00:03:01.020 --> 00:03:03.759 That's a big leap from somebody in economics 00:03:03.759 --> 00:03:06.539 So tell us how this idea got planted in your 00:03:06.539 --> 00:03:08.659 brain that well, I'll just do a little bit of 00:03:08.659 --> 00:03:12.060 this work Yeah, so let me tell you about this. 00:03:12.060 --> 00:03:15.000 So thank you for having me on I'm pretty sure 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:17.960 you and thank you for having Quinn Cho on as 00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:23.830 well very recently so we well when When I was 00:03:23.830 --> 00:03:27.490 a kid, I loved watching anime. In fact, I watched 00:03:27.490 --> 00:03:31.250 anime so much that I eventually started learning 00:03:31.250 --> 00:03:37.509 Japanese and I was able to like passed the language 00:03:37.509 --> 00:03:44.009 needed for SAT from my Japanese classes. And 00:03:44.009 --> 00:03:45.909 my grandma would have always been like, oh my 00:03:45.909 --> 00:03:47.889 gosh, those Japanese people are evil. You're 00:03:47.889 --> 00:03:50.810 being brainwashed right now. No more Doraemon. 00:03:51.330 --> 00:03:53.509 And I had just thought that my grandma was being 00:03:53.509 --> 00:03:57.629 racist. And so after she passed away, we found 00:03:57.629 --> 00:04:03.699 this box of items about And it's from her World 00:04:03.699 --> 00:04:06.659 War Two days from military yen to raise ration 00:04:06.659 --> 00:04:10.580 coupons. And I because I grew up in the United 00:04:10.580 --> 00:04:14.159 States, I never really learned about World War 00:04:14.159 --> 00:04:16.160 Two. Whenever we learn about World War Two is 00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:18.879 90 percent Hitler. So I felt pretty disconnected 00:04:18.879 --> 00:04:24.860 to what we what was taught and. Like what my 00:04:24.860 --> 00:04:27.720 family had gone through and let's stop there 00:04:27.720 --> 00:04:30.920 because your grandmother was uh lived in hong 00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:34.519 kong at the time of uh in pre world war ii and 00:04:34.519 --> 00:04:38.560 she was of chinese descent so yes her experiences 00:04:38.560 --> 00:04:42.160 were nothing like the experiences of those in 00:04:42.160 --> 00:04:45.139 the european theater so you're right it wasn't 00:04:45.139 --> 00:04:47.920 taught you didn't know about it and that box 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:50.420 really became sort of pandora's box it opened 00:04:50.420 --> 00:04:53.180 up all kinds of things you needed to go learn 00:04:53.180 --> 00:04:57.439 about didn't it yes and i also learned that in 00:04:57.439 --> 00:05:00.160 1941 what she was describing for three years 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:03.899 eight months also coincided with america's involvement 00:05:03.899 --> 00:05:07.319 with the war because hong kong was attacked eight 00:05:07.319 --> 00:05:10.519 hours after pearl harbor was attacked so the 00:05:10.519 --> 00:05:12.540 three years eight months that she was describing 00:05:12.540 --> 00:05:17.259 was also how the duration of when america was 00:05:17.259 --> 00:05:21.500 in the war as well And so yes, that's an interesting 00:05:21.500 --> 00:05:23.879 point. I didn't realize Hong Kong was attacked 00:05:23.879 --> 00:05:27.699 right after Really the same day as Pearl Harbor 00:05:27.699 --> 00:05:30.379 and and and I know the Philippines were as well 00:05:30.379 --> 00:05:34.839 There was a multi -prong attack going on on the 00:05:34.839 --> 00:05:38.500 day that in the United States we Think about 00:05:38.500 --> 00:05:42.439 December 7th only as Pearl Harbor Day But there 00:05:42.439 --> 00:05:46.959 was this multi -prong attack throughout the Yes 00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:49.660 in the Pacific and Singapore was also attacked 00:05:49.660 --> 00:05:52.160 in the same day. And in fact, it was very interesting 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:56.879 because recently I read Lee Kuan Yew's book he 00:05:56.879 --> 00:06:01.279 was the Singapore Prime Minister and At the same 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:04.220 time that Pearl Harbor was attacked like 12 hours 00:06:04.220 --> 00:06:07.600 later He almost got killed in the massacre that 00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:11.259 was happening in Singapore as well. So in terms 00:06:11.259 --> 00:06:14.040 of Pearl Harbor, it was not just Pearl Harbor, 00:06:14.180 --> 00:06:18.500 it was all these other Southeast Asia countries 00:06:18.500 --> 00:06:21.680 that were also attacked around the same time. 00:06:22.579 --> 00:06:27.560 And again, you open up your grandmother's box, 00:06:28.100 --> 00:06:32.699 start seeing some of her historical memorabilia 00:06:32.699 --> 00:06:36.339 that she lived with in World War II, and where 00:06:36.339 --> 00:06:39.629 did that lead you next? Well, and then I wanted 00:06:39.629 --> 00:06:41.949 to read more about this so I read the rape of 00:06:41.949 --> 00:06:44.649 nine king by the late Iris Chang and I thought 00:06:44.649 --> 00:06:47.870 wow This is very fascinating and she also went 00:06:47.870 --> 00:06:51.089 to you of I I also went to you of I and Then 00:06:51.089 --> 00:06:54.110 I was I went I really went into a rabbit hole 00:06:54.110 --> 00:07:00.899 and at the time I read The Rising Sun by John 00:07:00.899 --> 00:07:02.720 Toland. I don't know if you've heard of this 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:05.920 book or read this book. It's two volumes. And 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:08.819 it was very hard. I went on eBay. I kept ordering 00:07:08.819 --> 00:07:11.639 volume one, volume two, and then they kept shipping 00:07:11.639 --> 00:07:16.439 me volume one. And like 12 tries later, I finally 00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:20.339 got volume one and volume two. And that really 00:07:20.339 --> 00:07:22.420 piqued my interest because I'm like, why is this 00:07:22.420 --> 00:07:27.040 so hard to get? Volume one and volume two together 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:30.680 and then and also around the same time a lot 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:32.959 of documents were getting declassified at the 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:35.319 National Archives. So after I read that I was 00:07:35.319 --> 00:07:38.170 trying to verify some facts. I also read the 00:07:38.170 --> 00:07:42.310 Death Factory by Sheldon Harris. It's about Unit 00:07:42.310 --> 00:07:47.790 731. And because of his books, a lot of the documents 00:07:47.790 --> 00:07:51.529 were declassified. And so then I went into National 00:07:51.529 --> 00:07:56.170 Archives and really tried to see what was happening 00:07:56.170 --> 00:08:02.170 during World War II. And then it led to eventually... 00:08:02.079 --> 00:08:06.579 digitizing a million pages from that that stop 00:08:06.579 --> 00:08:10.160 don't don't skip over that the amount of effort 00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:15.199 to digitize a million pages of declassified work 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:18.199 crime documents really from the national archives 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:21.399 and and victim testimony and survivor testimony 00:08:21.399 --> 00:08:27.639 this this is way beyond looking at the box and 00:08:27.639 --> 00:08:33.500 seeing what grandma had um and This is, I guess, 00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:37.860 after you founded Pacific Atrocities Education 00:08:37.860 --> 00:08:41.940 in 2014. This is all part of this 10 -year history. 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:45.419 Yeah, so after I got through, I finally got the 00:08:45.419 --> 00:08:49.899 second volume of The Rising Sun, and then I thought, 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:52.320 wow, I really want to do more research. I want 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:55.659 to go into the history field. But at the time, 00:08:55.840 --> 00:09:00.440 There's no nonprofit that is focused on Pacific 00:09:00.440 --> 00:09:04.240 Asia during World War Two. And if you think about 00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:08.159 it, World War Two in Pacific Asia is way more 00:09:08.159 --> 00:09:12.539 relevant than Holocaust to America. Because you 00:09:12.539 --> 00:09:15.240 have Pearl Harbor, you have the very famous photo 00:09:15.240 --> 00:09:20.460 of Iwo Jima, right? And Americans were very involved 00:09:20.460 --> 00:09:24.490 in this. Asian war and it's like we don't really 00:09:24.490 --> 00:09:30.210 hear about it even yeah, and so I Thought there's 00:09:30.210 --> 00:09:33.009 really something to it And that's why I started 00:09:33.009 --> 00:09:35.490 the nonprofit and thought well if there's no 00:09:35.490 --> 00:09:40.169 job out there for me to research this part Then 00:09:40.169 --> 00:09:43.769 maybe I can start something and and this has 00:09:43.769 --> 00:09:50.620 turned into a project that Has created an amazing 00:09:50.620 --> 00:09:54.379 amount of content about these conflicts, both 00:09:54.379 --> 00:09:57.960 between the Japanese and the Chinese, the Japanese 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:03.159 and the US, but really focused on what was going 00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:09.620 on in China and Singapore. Tell us what the focus 00:10:09.620 --> 00:10:13.559 is and what kind of original content you guys 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:18.399 have created. Yeah, so let me go back from like 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:21.960 10 years ago So one of our first project was 00:10:21.960 --> 00:10:25.279 I actually went to China to interview these comfort 00:10:25.279 --> 00:10:30.360 women that were in China and They I mean because 00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:32.700 whenever you mention comfort woman is always 00:10:32.700 --> 00:10:35.279 Korean and then there was like all kinds of documents 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:37.759 out there about the Korean comfort woman But 00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:41.230 apparently I learned that wherever the Japanese 00:10:41.230 --> 00:10:44.009 was invading, there was a comfort women system. 00:10:47.220 --> 00:10:50.200 And I was scrolling in social media and I found 00:10:50.200 --> 00:10:52.179 that there were still some Chinese comfort women 00:10:52.179 --> 00:10:55.399 alive. So I went and interviewed them and that 00:10:55.399 --> 00:10:58.120 was one of my first work on the comfort women 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:01.980 issue. And they were living in Shaanxi and just 00:11:01.980 --> 00:11:04.980 seeing those people firsthand really made an 00:11:04.980 --> 00:11:08.500 impression on me. Like these were, they were 00:11:08.500 --> 00:11:11.679 like systematically raped every single day. And 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:15.059 I was talking to this woman who ended up burying 00:11:15.059 --> 00:11:19.840 her child. Because she was pregnant after the 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:22.080 war and she didn't know she didn't know what 00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:24.259 to do with it Her mom was like, okay, let's just 00:11:24.259 --> 00:11:26.000 kill the child and then they buried it in the 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:30.000 cave and I thought wow these and like and this 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:33.200 affected like millions of people and I thought 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:35.720 it to myself Wow, if it really affected millions 00:11:35.720 --> 00:11:39.559 of people why is this so black hole in this history? 00:11:40.519 --> 00:11:44.679 And so Yeah, so that was one of the first project 00:11:44.679 --> 00:11:49.789 then like I said Did you find that there's a 00:11:49.789 --> 00:11:53.149 lot of Chinese history and books and documentaries 00:11:53.149 --> 00:11:57.370 focused on this period, or has it really pretty 00:11:57.370 --> 00:12:01.850 much been ignored? I think maybe in the last 00:12:01.850 --> 00:12:06.549 five years it's been researched, but when I was 00:12:06.549 --> 00:12:09.210 getting started I couldn't really find the source. 00:12:09.710 --> 00:12:15.769 in a lot of these contexts. And so when I was 00:12:15.769 --> 00:12:17.889 getting started, there was really not too much 00:12:17.889 --> 00:12:20.870 out there. I have been sharing a lot of what 00:12:20.870 --> 00:12:24.110 I have digitized to scholars in China as well 00:12:24.110 --> 00:12:27.120 so that they can produce work. uh... they have 00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:29.879 been for example uh... when i was taking three 00:12:29.879 --> 00:12:31.860 in the seven three one i got really obsessed 00:12:31.860 --> 00:12:36.259 over it so i went to the floor stop and and explain 00:12:36.259 --> 00:12:38.679 to people veteran radio listeners who maybe didn't 00:12:38.679 --> 00:12:41.340 listen to my prior interview with quite sure 00:12:41.340 --> 00:12:43.860 where we talked about unit seven three one tell 00:12:43.860 --> 00:12:45.840 us what it is and then go back to it to what 00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:49.710 you're explaining Yes, so UNICEF 731 was a human 00:12:49.710 --> 00:12:53.110 experimentation lab and bioweapons production 00:12:53.110 --> 00:12:58.629 center in Japan -occupied China in Manchuria 00:12:58.629 --> 00:13:10.110 and in Harbin. It was basically operated by Imperial 00:13:10.110 --> 00:13:15.809 Japanese Army, a man named Ishishiro because 00:13:15.809 --> 00:13:20.690 he thought that well if the world is signing 00:13:20.690 --> 00:13:24.509 a Geneva Convention then maybe there's something 00:13:24.509 --> 00:13:28.129 to germ warfare so he decided to weaponize the 00:13:28.129 --> 00:13:31.429 germs so all the horrible things which we've 00:13:31.429 --> 00:13:34.610 read about that the Nazis did in terms of human 00:13:34.610 --> 00:13:38.009 experimentation the Japanese were doing similar 00:13:38.009 --> 00:13:42.190 things freezing people to death to see how frostbite 00:13:42.190 --> 00:13:44.929 was, and developing germ warfords, and injecting 00:13:44.929 --> 00:13:48.730 people to see how long they'd last. I mean, again, 00:13:50.070 --> 00:13:53.929 Unit 731 is just unknown largely here in the 00:13:53.929 --> 00:13:56.950 U .S. Yes. So let's go back. You were saying 00:13:56.950 --> 00:13:59.809 as you were doing your research on Unit 731, 00:14:00.269 --> 00:14:04.330 Yes, so at this time I read the book The Death 00:14:04.330 --> 00:14:07.169 Factory by Sheldon Harris and in the first volume, 00:14:07.190 --> 00:14:10.809 I read both first edition and second edition 00:14:10.809 --> 00:14:14.029 and I found that the difference was that in the 00:14:14.029 --> 00:14:17.110 first edition he talked about how the POWs, the 00:14:17.110 --> 00:14:21.320 US ally POWs were captured and also used for 00:14:21.320 --> 00:14:24.159 human experimentation. And in the second volume, 00:14:24.299 --> 00:14:27.620 he took that off. It's redacted. And so I went 00:14:27.620 --> 00:14:30.860 over to National Archives, and I looked over 00:14:30.860 --> 00:14:33.820 the records. And apparently, after his first 00:14:33.820 --> 00:14:37.799 edition, the Congress decided to have a meeting 00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:41.179 and say that, oh, basically, there was really 00:14:41.179 --> 00:14:44.700 no POWs that were used for human experimentation. 00:14:44.759 --> 00:14:48.460 And that led to the second edition. But from 00:14:48.460 --> 00:14:50.799 my recent research, I realized that they did 00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:55.500 use POW as human research. So his first edition 00:14:55.500 --> 00:14:59.179 was correct. And when I was there at the National 00:14:59.179 --> 00:15:02.580 Archive, I met like other scholars and then like, 00:15:02.600 --> 00:15:04.919 you know, you network and you chat a little bit. 00:15:05.139 --> 00:15:07.600 And I realized that a lot of like Chinese scholars 00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:09.940 because of visa issue, they probably just go 00:15:09.940 --> 00:15:12.700 to the National Archive for like a week and think 00:15:12.700 --> 00:15:16.309 that they can scan the whole like primary source 00:15:16.309 --> 00:15:22.710 from, you know, from, from, yeah, they think 00:15:22.710 --> 00:15:25.049 that they can scan like thousands of pages in 00:15:25.049 --> 00:15:29.570 one week, which is naive. So I told them, hey, 00:15:29.590 --> 00:15:33.350 you know, maybe I can just upload it onto a box 00:15:33.350 --> 00:15:36.230 for you. on the internet. And so that's what 00:15:36.230 --> 00:15:39.710 I've been doing. And I really just want to know, 00:15:40.250 --> 00:15:42.649 I really just wanted to scan the historical truth 00:15:42.649 --> 00:15:46.690 and provide primary source documents for people 00:15:46.690 --> 00:15:50.230 to research more about World War Two as well. 00:15:50.690 --> 00:15:53.389 And you've had Quinn Cho come on to, I mean, 00:15:53.529 --> 00:15:57.210 gone on to the show. And the Quinn Cho research 00:15:57.210 --> 00:16:00.779 is also very interesting because He signed up 00:16:00.779 --> 00:16:04.960 for an internship with us for like two summers. 00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:07.700 And then he was working on, you know, Burma, 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:10.899 China, India at first, which was another very 00:16:10.899 --> 00:16:14.259 untalked about topic. But Joseph Stilwell from 00:16:14.259 --> 00:16:16.480 the United States played like a huge part of 00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:19.320 that conflict. And so then he was working on 00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:21.899 the second project. And then I told him, hey, 00:16:22.059 --> 00:16:25.019 Quinn, can you imagine if no one knows about, 00:16:25.019 --> 00:16:30.110 you know, S .S. Woffman from from Nazi Germany 00:16:30.110 --> 00:16:33.730 and he's like yeah and I'm like okay there's 00:16:33.730 --> 00:16:37.149 quantum army from Japan which like is so unknown 00:16:37.149 --> 00:16:40.450 about and there's no one who is gone who has 00:16:40.450 --> 00:16:42.350 written a book about this. There's like this 00:16:42.350 --> 00:16:45.250 huge literature gap and so then that started 00:16:45.250 --> 00:16:48.750 his journey of researching for that book as well. 00:16:49.370 --> 00:16:53.210 Well that's a good point. Your work at Pacific 00:16:53.210 --> 00:16:57.929 Atrocities isn't just covering just the war the 00:16:57.929 --> 00:17:00.970 World War II, it looks at sort of what leads 00:17:00.970 --> 00:17:04.809 up to it, which is that Quantum Army period in 00:17:04.809 --> 00:17:08.109 Manchuria and the Nanking Massacre and a lot 00:17:08.109 --> 00:17:14.509 of other pieces around just the Japanese Imperial 00:17:14.509 --> 00:17:19.069 Army fighting U .S. It looks at all those things 00:17:19.069 --> 00:17:22.609 that it's doing in the other Asian countries. 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:25.400 which again we have so little information on 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:28.319 here in in the United States and certainly not 00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:31.759 in our history books. Right and there's a political 00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:35.059 reason for that because after World War II during 00:17:35.059 --> 00:17:42.160 the Cold War, so Unit 731, the director of the 00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:45.319 Unit 731 decided to fake his own death and have 00:17:45.319 --> 00:17:49.839 his little funeral and the CIA found him. And 00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:54.519 he was alive and well, and the CIA decided that 00:17:54.519 --> 00:17:58.720 because his human research project has been so 00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:01.200 successful and you cannot replicate that ever 00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:06.359 again because of ethics, then they bought the 00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:10.059 research and offered him immunity. And so that 00:18:10.059 --> 00:18:14.660 became a part of the public amnesia, I think. 00:18:15.049 --> 00:18:18.890 And also, when the Soviets captured Manchuria 00:18:18.890 --> 00:18:26.690 after World War II, the Soviets then had a trial. 00:18:27.829 --> 00:18:30.789 And during this trial, the Western media played 00:18:30.789 --> 00:18:36.029 it off as if it was a communist propaganda trial. 00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:42.859 And so then Unit 731 became like this, oh, it 00:18:42.859 --> 00:18:47.240 was communist propaganda. And so I think politics 00:18:47.240 --> 00:18:52.119 had a lot to do with... Undoubtedly, and you 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:55.099 feel the ripples of this through history, and 00:18:55.099 --> 00:19:00.680 you can see where, well, Japan became an ally 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:05.220 of the US in future years, and China now is the... 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:14.500 kind of enemy or future enemy of the US. And 00:19:14.500 --> 00:19:17.380 so that shapes how your history gets told if 00:19:17.380 --> 00:19:19.200 you don't go all the way to the source documents 00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:21.380 and do the hard work you guys are doing, doesn't 00:19:21.380 --> 00:19:26.920 it? Yeah. And so I find that is, I mean, you 00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:31.390 can say it's kind of disgusting why I mean, this 00:19:31.390 --> 00:19:34.549 history is not told, right? I mean, a lot of 00:19:34.549 --> 00:19:37.769 Americans sacrificed their lives out in the Pacific 00:19:37.769 --> 00:19:41.990 and their stories are not told. And I was talking 00:19:41.990 --> 00:19:48.880 to a descendant from of a POW and her father 00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:52.759 survived hellships and hellships were how they 00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:57.339 transferred POWs from, you know, where they surrendered 00:19:57.339 --> 00:20:01.160 to a prisoner labor camp. I'm pretty sure you've 00:20:01.160 --> 00:20:06.400 watched River Quay. Sure, sure. Yeah. And she 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:11.160 was saying that, you know, the stories are barely 00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:16.549 told and it's just One of those things is that 00:20:16.549 --> 00:20:20.569 the Japanese had a very high death rate among 00:20:20.569 --> 00:20:23.890 POWs as compared to the Germans. And part of 00:20:23.890 --> 00:20:25.809 that was they didn't have any food themselves. 00:20:26.690 --> 00:20:30.569 And so one, you know, killing one more POW meant 00:20:30.569 --> 00:20:33.430 one less mouth to feed. I mean, there's a whole 00:20:33.430 --> 00:20:38.089 history of not only cultural, but practical issues 00:20:38.089 --> 00:20:41.730 when the Japanese were on the Philippines, for 00:20:41.730 --> 00:20:45.880 example, and other islands. in the in the asian 00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:50.019 pacific but but as you've built this research 00:20:50.019 --> 00:20:54.759 out you've done books articles teaching resources 00:20:54.759 --> 00:21:00.200 blogs podcasts um education we're now doing a 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:03.660 um you know james bradley from flags of our fathers 00:21:03.660 --> 00:21:07.680 yes we're now doing a podcast series with him 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:10.740 because he also saw our work and reach out and 00:21:10.740 --> 00:21:14.789 then now he wants to talk so yeah so Our YouTube 00:21:14.789 --> 00:21:18.089 channel Pacific Front Untold now has James Bradley 00:21:18.089 --> 00:21:23.390 as guest on there regularly. Just a wonderful 00:21:23.390 --> 00:21:25.910 elevation of the work that you guys are doing. 00:21:26.630 --> 00:21:30.369 But talk a little bit of why, I mean, this takes 00:21:30.369 --> 00:21:32.690 a lot of energy to keep going for as long as 00:21:32.690 --> 00:21:35.569 you've been going. Talk to us a little bit about 00:21:35.569 --> 00:21:39.809 why you feel it still matters. Yes, it still 00:21:39.809 --> 00:21:43.519 matters because. Today, what we're seeing in 00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:46.619 Taiwan, what we're seeing in terms of US, Japan, 00:21:46.700 --> 00:21:50.819 China, that all stemmed from World War II. For 00:21:50.819 --> 00:21:54.519 example, just last month, the Prime Minister 00:21:54.519 --> 00:21:58.819 of Sanae, Prime Minister Sanae from Japan is 00:21:58.819 --> 00:22:04.819 doing some hawkish talking. And really, there's 00:22:04.819 --> 00:22:08.460 no historical context in terms of mainstream 00:22:08.460 --> 00:22:11.579 media about why Chinese people were so offended. 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:19.839 And also, she worked for Shinzo Abe, who was 00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:24.059 assassinated a couple of years ago, but his grandfather 00:22:24.059 --> 00:22:27.920 was actually one of the key architect of the 00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:34.759 Manchurian occupation. economist. And he had 00:22:34.759 --> 00:22:39.819 drafted up how to exploit Manchuria. But because 00:22:39.819 --> 00:22:43.779 of politics, the Cold War politics, Eisenhower 00:22:43.779 --> 00:22:46.619 then rescued him from Sugamo prison, and he went 00:22:46.619 --> 00:22:49.240 from a war criminal to a prime minister within 00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:53.059 10 years. And so then when you see that line 00:22:53.059 --> 00:22:56.220 of like, people who escaped not just justice, 00:22:56.259 --> 00:22:59.579 but also got into power, because Prime Minister 00:22:59.579 --> 00:23:04.430 Sanae frequently visited the Yasukuni shrine 00:23:04.430 --> 00:23:08.930 where they worshiped war criminals. And also 00:23:08.930 --> 00:23:13.710 she was endorsed by one of the ex -prime ministers, 00:23:13.750 --> 00:23:16.869 Prime Minister Aso. And so then you have this 00:23:16.869 --> 00:23:20.269 line of denial lists, right? And so then I feel 00:23:20.269 --> 00:23:23.539 like if I don't do the work that I do, Other 00:23:23.539 --> 00:23:25.799 people are going to forget and people are going 00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:29.500 to cover up what they have done in the past And 00:23:29.500 --> 00:23:32.980 if for me as an American, I don't think that's 00:23:32.980 --> 00:23:36.039 the right thing to do, you know So that's why 00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:39.000 I think today that's why it still matters today 00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:41.099 and we still need to push that information out 00:23:41.099 --> 00:23:44.920 there because we're getting into a dangerous 00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:48.160 area of you know going to war with China without 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:52.829 contacts and That's a World War III that is going 00:23:52.829 --> 00:23:56.549 to be very disastrous for everyone. And we certainly 00:23:56.549 --> 00:24:00.170 in the United States don't have that historical 00:24:00.170 --> 00:24:07.430 context of why this nation and that nation have 00:24:07.430 --> 00:24:10.990 certain entrenched attitudes or don't believe 00:24:10.990 --> 00:24:13.569 what was said because they still remember what 00:24:13.569 --> 00:24:17.730 was done. So again, this puts that all in a little 00:24:17.730 --> 00:24:20.450 context. I'm wondering if you've run into any 00:24:20.450 --> 00:24:23.390 political headwinds because not everything you 00:24:23.390 --> 00:24:26.509 are reporting on, which has been hidden for a 00:24:26.509 --> 00:24:32.730 while, is all that popular. Oh, for sure. I mean, 00:24:32.869 --> 00:24:37.309 it is a very scary place on social media. In 00:24:37.309 --> 00:24:39.589 fact, you have to be like pretty brave to talk 00:24:39.589 --> 00:24:43.569 about it. I've come to that conclusion. And like, 00:24:44.049 --> 00:24:46.750 sometimes I'm like happy that our videos and 00:24:46.750 --> 00:24:49.150 whatnot go viral. But then right after that, 00:24:49.490 --> 00:24:52.089 you get like a search of people saying like, 00:24:52.289 --> 00:24:54.549 oh, that didn't happen. For example, when I was 00:24:54.549 --> 00:24:57.400 talking about comfort women. a bunch of people 00:24:57.400 --> 00:25:00.000 were saying oh they were highly paid prostitution 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:03.319 oh this is ccp talking point this never happened 00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:05.980 blah blah blah blah blah like the list goes on 00:25:05.980 --> 00:25:10.279 and and then like we have people who would um 00:25:10.279 --> 00:25:13.460 have profile names such as like hideki tojo who 00:25:13.460 --> 00:25:16.720 was like I think it's like an equivalent of Hitler. 00:25:17.299 --> 00:25:19.960 So imagine if someone like named a profile named 00:25:19.960 --> 00:25:23.099 Hitler and then like start saying some like basically 00:25:23.099 --> 00:25:26.259 garbage things and then like calling you a liar. 00:25:27.380 --> 00:25:31.640 Just basically denying that this whole like history 00:25:31.640 --> 00:25:36.400 had happened. So yeah, you're right. And to say 00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:41.319 that our I mean, I think our truth is really 00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:44.339 against the narrative that is trying that you 00:25:44.339 --> 00:25:48.579 know the mainstream is trying to portray but 00:25:48.579 --> 00:25:51.359 it's just what it is it's just historical truth 00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:54.000 well and that's that's that's the beauty of going 00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:56.299 to the source material whether that source material 00:25:56.299 --> 00:26:00.019 is the national archives or going to china and 00:26:00.019 --> 00:26:03.619 talking to women uh you uh explained earlier 00:26:03.619 --> 00:26:07.160 you're you speak japanese you also speak chinese 00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:10.119 yes so there's nobody in the middle when these 00:26:10.119 --> 00:26:12.900 stories are being told to you you're able to 00:26:12.900 --> 00:26:17.440 actually listen to these women and other survivors 00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:20.460 and know firsthand that you're getting the source 00:26:20.460 --> 00:26:25.740 material correct. Yes. Again, this is not an 00:26:25.740 --> 00:26:30.380 easy passion project to keep going. If folks 00:26:30.380 --> 00:26:33.240 are interested in helping you in some regards, 00:26:33.420 --> 00:26:37.160 is there a funding opportunity? Yeah, you can 00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:42.200 donate on pacificatrocities .org. And you can 00:26:42.200 --> 00:26:46.440 also subscribe on our YouTube Pacific Front Untold. 00:26:47.259 --> 00:26:49.779 And yeah, and the reason why our branding for 00:26:49.779 --> 00:26:51.980 our YouTube is different than our website is 00:26:51.980 --> 00:26:55.000 because if you talk about atrocities, then your 00:26:55.000 --> 00:26:58.960 whole channel gets a shadow ban. So we have to, 00:26:59.259 --> 00:27:01.559 we have to go against the algorithm a little 00:27:01.559 --> 00:27:06.420 bit here. I guess I can understand that in today's 00:27:06.420 --> 00:27:11.529 everything's controlled by an algorithm. As you 00:27:11.529 --> 00:27:15.109 go forward, do you, I mean, are you looking at 00:27:15.109 --> 00:27:17.829 like, okay, this is the next five years or next 00:27:17.829 --> 00:27:24.849 10 years. How long does this passion project 00:27:24.849 --> 00:27:28.990 continue? It continues on as long as we have 00:27:28.990 --> 00:27:31.650 items to go through. And what you see on our 00:27:31.650 --> 00:27:34.170 website is really an iceberg of our research. 00:27:34.650 --> 00:27:38.150 Um, we have a lot more to process in the back 00:27:38.150 --> 00:27:40.809 end. I see still like at least five years of 00:27:40.809 --> 00:27:44.069 work being pushed out there just because of this 00:27:44.069 --> 00:27:48.349 literature gap. There's really, there's, there's 00:27:48.349 --> 00:27:51.339 a lot of untold history out there. I'm really 00:27:51.339 --> 00:27:54.140 amazed at the books that you can get if you go 00:27:54.140 --> 00:27:57.960 to that website, pacificatrosseus .org and go 00:27:57.960 --> 00:28:01.500 to the book link and go look at the books. I 00:28:01.500 --> 00:28:04.000 encourage veteran radio listeners to go do that. 00:28:04.420 --> 00:28:07.680 Maybe your grandfather fought in the Pacific 00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:10.180 and you don't know much about it. This is one 00:28:10.180 --> 00:28:12.619 place to go. There's something like 19 million 00:28:12.619 --> 00:28:16.299 Asian Americans in the country. The population 00:28:16.299 --> 00:28:19.420 makes up about 6 % of the U .S. population. If 00:28:19.420 --> 00:28:21.599 you're listening to this and you think, I want 00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:24.059 to know more about this cultural issue that I've 00:28:24.059 --> 00:28:28.579 missed out on in my history classes, go to pacificatrocities 00:28:28.579 --> 00:28:34.019 .org. Talk to us about your audience. I don't 00:28:34.019 --> 00:28:35.720 want to scare people off to make them think, 00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:40.000 well, this is just for like high brow historians. 00:28:40.220 --> 00:28:42.940 That's not your audience, is it? No, that's not 00:28:42.940 --> 00:28:46.099 our audience at all. Our audience are like... 00:28:46.039 --> 00:28:49.279 people who are really interested like I said 00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:53.460 some of the POW descendants some of the everyday 00:28:53.460 --> 00:28:56.279 people who want to know more especially nowadays 00:28:56.279 --> 00:29:00.259 that you know they read the news and then they 00:29:00.259 --> 00:29:02.859 don't people are starting to really not trust 00:29:02.859 --> 00:29:05.000 the narrative do you see that do you see that 00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:07.819 happening oh absolutely there's a real thirst 00:29:07.819 --> 00:29:11.980 for more direct information information people 00:29:11.980 --> 00:29:15.640 can check out themselves You're doing great work, 00:29:15.940 --> 00:29:18.160 Jenny, and you're welcome back any time to highlight 00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:21.359 some of the work that you're doing or the authors, 00:29:21.420 --> 00:29:24.180 as we did with Quinn Cho. We were glad to speak 00:29:24.180 --> 00:29:26.980 to him as well. Great. Thank you so much for 00:29:26.980 --> 00:29:30.319 having me. And I want to thank everybody for 00:29:30.319 --> 00:29:33.720 listening to Veterans Radio today. I am Jim Fossone. 00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:36.500 It's been a pleasure to be your host. I'm a Veterans 00:29:36.500 --> 00:29:39.220 disability lawyer at Legal Help for Veterans, 00:29:39.539 --> 00:29:46.339 and you can reach us at 800 - 693 -4800 or legalhelpforveterans 00:29:46.339 --> 00:29:49.519 .com on the web. You can follow Veterans Radio 00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:52.839 on Facebook and listen to its podcasts and internet 00:29:52.839 --> 00:29:57.440 radio shows by visiting us at veteransradio .org. 00:29:57.619 --> 00:30:01.380 That's veteransradio .org. 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