Veterans Radio is dedicated to all the men and
women who have served or are currently serving
in the Armed Forces of the United States of America.
From the studios of Ave Maria Radio in Ann Arbor,
this is Veterans Radio. And now here's your host,
Dale Throneberry. And good morning America and
welcome to veterans radio and welcome to all
of our listeners out there here in the local
Ann Arbor area and around the world We're coming
to you live from the studios of WDEO 990 a .m.
And well not quite so beautiful Ann Arbor, Michigan
this morning It's always beautiful in Ann Arbor.
That's true, but the sun is hiding today. It
may be out again a little bit later. But it's
sunny here in the studio. It is always sunny
in the studio. It is especially sunny in our
control room with our engineer today, Nina. The
lovely Nina. Good morning. How are you? We are
all fine. Thank you very much, Nina, for all
that you do for the program. It's greatly appreciated.
It's my pleasure. Joining me in the studio is
my partner today is Bob Gould. Bob, how are you
doing? Well, welcome to all my brothers and sisters
out there and to the world. That's right. We've
got a little anecdote we'd like to tell, a little
story today. As you all know, here in the local
area we have breakfast every Saturday morning
at the local Big Boy restaurant at the intersection
of US -23 and Plymouth Road. And the owner of
this particular big boy, Joe, unfortunately had
an accident last weekend. And as he explained
it, he came out of his driveway much too fast
and the car that was coming down the road legally
didn't get a chance to stop. So they stopped
each other. But the EMT operator that was there
to help Joe and was getting ready to take him
into his ambulance looked down at him and says,
oh, I know you. You're the owner of the big boy
restaurant, aren't you? And the guy goes, you
know, ow, ow, ow, yes. Yes, I am. And he says,
hey, you know Bob and Dale, don't you? Yeah.
I listen to Veterans Radio every Saturday morning.
So whoever the anonymous EMT is out there, thank
you so very much. We greatly appreciate that.
We have a reputation. We do. We have a reputation
that we need to uphold. It's nice to hear that.
Which can be a little dangerous sometimes. So
anyway, so we were talking with Joe this morning
and it looks like we may be trying to figure
out how to do a remote. Right from the big boy.
Right from the big boy. Sometimes later on to
do a fundraiser. And speaking of fundraising,
if you guys out there, men and women and civilians
and military alike, if you like what you're hearing
on Veterans Radio, we could really use your support.
And to do that, you can send us your donation.
to veterans radio I mean now it's time to do
it now it's time that's right to pony up give
us a hand that's right hold you we've got our
hand out you can well a handout to pull us out
I don't mean handout no like a hat no no no no
to to pull us and we'll be we'll be hanging on
and And we want to continue on bringing this
broadcasting so we do the rubber is hitting the
road folks Now now it is now it is and you like
the programming that we have especially the one
last week gosh was that That was that was super
the one about the dewy. Oh, yes And then we had
the captain of the ship who was actually there
That's the kind of programming that we bring
to you. That's what we do. That's actually Larry
King stuff. Oh, we're way beyond Larry King.
Way beyond. Anyhow, if you'd like to help us
out and make a contribution, you can just send
us your donation to Veterans Radio at P .O. Box
3085. That's 3085, Ann Arbor, Michigan 48106.
48106. We also encourage you that are listening
to us on WDEO to keep... supporting WDEO. They
do a great job for us too. But when you do send
us your donation, make the check out to Veterans
Radio. Right. So that way it goes in to our account.
Right. So it's got to be out to... Yeah, don't
make it out to Bob or to me. All right. Then
Dale, what's that? What's that address again?
That's Peelbox 3085 Ann Arbor, Michigan 48106.
Thank you for listening. The next thing we want
to talk about is another fundraiser that's going
on, and also joining me in the studio today,
and I'm going to have him back on later on, is
our old friend, Dog Handler, the Dog Man, Vance
McCrum. Vance, welcome to Veterans Radio. Thank
you, Dale. Appreciate the offer to be in the
studio this morning, and a good morning to all
my fellow handlers out there around the world.
What a voice this guy has. I know. We keep trying
to recruit him. To all of the dog handlers out
there and to all of you dog lovers out there,
today's program is about soldier dogs and their
handlers and their training and some of the stories
that go along with them. And Vance was a dog
handler in Vietnam. When were you there? I was
in country in 1965. I was a United States Air
Force dog handler from 63 through 67. And your
dog's name was? Well, there were three. My first
dog was Casey. The dog I had in country was Dutch.
And my last dog was Teddy. They do change it
around. I was amazed when I was reading that
story. I'm getting ahead of myself. When I was
reading this story, I was amazed how they changed
off quite often. But the other reason I have
you here is I wanted to talk about the dinner
tonight, the VBA Chapter 310 recognition dinner,
the Gary Lilly annual recognition dinner. And
do you have that information off the top of your
head? Absolutely, Dave. Thank you very much.
We renamed the VBA Chapter 310's recognition
dinner to the Gary Lilly recognition dinner and
it's a spaghetti dinner. And it's every year
we have this event where we honor two chapter
members, a chapter of the year and the Jerry
Sims Award winner as well as some other people
who support our chapter and we recognize them
and we do it every year. And the recipe that
they're following for this spaghetti dinner,
by the way, is our old friend and partner, Gary
Lilly's recipe, and so nobody can mess with that.
Secret sauce. Secret recipe. Secret sauce. That's
what I understand. I understand. Nobody knows
what's in it. You know, and I want to say to
all our listeners out there, yes, we do talk
about local fundraisers, et cetera, but do check
your VVA, American Legion VFW. that's nearby
because these very recognition dinners are being
held everywhere throughout the year. So do check,
all you military folks, that's right, do check
with those local organizations. Right, and if
you want us to promote it, give us a call or
send us an email and we'll get it out over the
air for you. But that's tonight at 6 o 'clock
at UAW Local. These glasses don't work at all
anymore. UAW Local 898 Union Hall, that's on
Textile Road in Ypsilanti, Michigan. Six o 'clock,
see you, we'll all be there and we're anxious
for you to come out. That's an order. That's
right, that's an order. And speaking of orders,
this one is to Nina. We'll be right back with
our guest, author of Soldier Dogs. You have honorably
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at 239 -280 -2552. You helped us. Now let us
help you. Semper Fi. We are back here on Veterans
Radio and today's program is dedicated to the
dogs of the world and to their handlers. Joining
me here on Veterans Radio is the author of Soldier
Dogs, The Untold Story of America's Canine Heroes.
It's Maria Godavage. I'm hoping I'm pronouncing
your name right, Maria. It's just a great story,
Maria. I want to thank you so much for writing
it, for one thing. I'm excited to have you on
the program today so that we can talk about...
what these amazing animals go through in their
training and when they are deployed. Welcome
to Veterans Radio, Maria. Thank you very much
Dale. So tell me what motivated you to write
this particular book. Well I actually grew up
steeped in a little bit of talk about dogs in
war because my dad was a very young soldier in
World War II and he went over there and he wasn't
a handler but he was really comforted by the
military dogs who were there and actually the
mascot dogs. I actually have a great picture
I've got to put up on my website of him with
three puppies that he found and adopted and kind
of took in and a monkey too. But he told me all
about what these war dogs did back then and how
at the end of the day these guys would be really,
some people would be homesick. He got homesick
a little bit there and sat in tough days and
the dog would always be there and the dog would...
seemed to know who to go to and who needed the
comforting. He said he couldn't believe the magic
these dogs brought and how they saved lives.
That was with me all through my life. I was a
journalist. I worked for a number of newspapers,
USA Today. Then I got into the dog writing world
as well and was collecting books on military
dog history, including some really good ones
by Mike Lemish. And I was thinking, you know,
I'm really going to write a book one of these
days and honor these dogs and handlers and tell
people what they do. And then getting some research
done. And then the Osama bin Laden raid hit last
year, and it became pretty well known that there
was a dog involved in the raid with the Navy
SEAL Team 6. And people didn't realize that.
And the media went crazy for this dog. the fact
that they're actually dogs in the military, and
I thought, finally I'm going to start writing
this book, or continue writing this book that
I started. So that was the timing for that. But
I've always known about them and really been
in great admiration for these dog teams and how
much they do. Well, you had really unlimited
access, it seems, to Lackland Air Force Base
where most of these dogs are trained. Is that
correct? Not completely unlimited. But I was
very, very lucky that they trusted me. It took
a lot. It took a lot to get in there. It took
a lot of proving myself to them. But when I was
in there, I got really incredible access to a
lot of things that people, journalists, hadn't
gotten access to. And the amount of time I got
to spend there with certain programs was really
incredible. And I got to Lackland, as most of
your listeners probably know, is... is Dog Central.
It's where the dogs get trained for in dog school.
It's where the handlers get trained and it's
kind of the place to go if you're going to learn
about what these dogs and handlers go through.
And it was a pretty amazing time and it's intense
there. It's really amazing what the training
is and also the medical, sort of the induction
that the dogs have to go through, shall we say,
to become soldier dogs or marine dogs or whatever
they're going to be is pretty amazing. I've got
Vance McCrum here in the studio with me and if
you listen to our intro he's a dog handler in
Vietnam and when you started talking about Lackland
Air Force base he was nodding his head because
I guess everybody that's the place to go. Everybody.
Ninety nine percent of the handlers went through
Lackland and that's all branches of service but
the Army had some Army and the Marines had some
different locations for training as well. But
Lackland is the center, if you will. Sorry, did
you go through their events? Yes, I went through
Lackland in May of 1963. Wow, wow. It was in
existence then. Here's another source for your
next book. Yes, definitely. I'm glad that she
mentioned Mike Lemish because Mike has wrote
two books in his last book. Unfortunately, I
forgot the name on. I sent him some pictures.
of the first group of guys who left for Vietnam
in 1965. And Mike is a great historian on military
working dogs. Yeah, he is the historian. He's
amazing. His books are incredible. And the research
that went into his books, he went all over the
place. And he spent years doing this incredibly
intensive research on the history. And I have
great admiration for him and his books. And really,
go buy them if you like military working dog
history, absolutely. Well, for those of you out
there who have questions for Maria or Vance or
anything about soldier dogs and their handlers,
you can give us a call right here at Veterans
Radio at 877 -573 -7825. That's 877 -573 -7825.
We are talking with Maria Godavich? Yeah, yeah.
That's good. Me and I were talking about where
we put the accent on this one. Anyway, she is
the author of Soldier Dogs, the Untold Story
of America's Canine Heroes. I've got to get him
on the line right away here. I've got the president
of the United U .S. War Dogs Association, Ron
Aiello. Ron, welcome to Veterans Radio. Thank
you for having me on. It's an honor to be on
your show, especially with Maria, who wrote the
soldier dogs. I think she's done an outstanding
job of explaining what the war dogs are. Thanks,
Ron. Well, you know, it's always great to get
the endorsement from the head of the organization
that knows probably as much about these dogs
as anybody does. Oh, I try to keep up. This is
an incredible organization. This is a great place
to look to if you want to help today's dogs.
Ron, I'm sure we'll tell you about that, but
he was in Vietnam, too, with his dog, and he
has quite some stories. Ron, when were you in
Vietnam? I arrived in Vietnam March 1966 and
left in April of 1967. I was one of the first
30 Marine Scout dog teams to be deployed to Vietnam.
And the Marines, they were all up in I Corps,
correct? We were in I Corps, right, where our
base camp was just outside of Da Nang and then
we had a temporary base down in Chu Lai. Yeah,
Ron, this is Vance. I was at Da Nang in 1965,
and our kennels, the Air Force kennels, were
temporary, but we were right next to about 6
,000 Marines, so we were probably the safest
people on Earth. Yeah, you were on the other
side of the airstrip, I believe. That's correct.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have a good friend that was
there in 65, Bucky Grimm, he's our treasurer.
Bucky Grimm, yeah. Yeah, he was Air Force. We
were there almost around the same time, but we
really didn't know each other. We met each other
back in 93 and just became really good friends.
And I think that usually happens with dog handlers.
This is what's amazing about this program, as
you bring people together and you find out, oh,
I knew you 45 years ago and haven't seen you
since. That does happen. I know. But I got to
tell you, Soldier Dogs is just fantastic. It
goes right from... World War II would study right
through today's canine teams. Of course, she
touched base on Cairo. One of the things in the
book right at the very end, and it's only like
two pages, but it actually explains what the
dogs are, what they do, their classification
as far as their actual job, whether they're patrol
dogs. She tells you about it. It only takes a
couple of pages, but most people ask that. What
do the dogs do over there? She explains it all
in this book. We're going to go back to Maria
right now and talk a little bit about that because
you do a great job of explaining what the various
categories of these dogs' professions are. The
thing that you point out to me Maria that I thought
was really valuable is that dogs are considered
equipment. Ron has been trying to get that changed
for many, many years through his actions to just
get them the right kind of treatment, to get
them back. from when they're well when they deploy
they come back that's that's the good thing about
today's military is if you if you're in Afghanistan
with your dog as long as you're both you know
alive you're coming back together and that's
a obviously a really big change from Vietnam
but but if you're a dog if you're a dog and handler
team in let's say Germany and your dog is retired
in Germany. Your dog right now is going to stay
in Germany in the kennel where the dog's been
retired. If someone wants to adopt that dog in
the US, they're going to have to pay for the
dog to come back. And that's pretty prohibitive
sometimes and can prevent some really good possible
future owners from doing that and from even knowing
these dogs are up or even trying. And there's
a bill right now. in Congress and the Senate
called the Canine Members of the Armed Forces
Act, which is going, it could really help that.
It could help dogs become sort of less equipment.
It will help them come back. It will help them
get veterinary care for, I think it's just pre
-existing conditions. Ron, you can maybe help
me with that one. And also, something Ron and
his US War Dog Association has been working on
forever is getting these dogs the recognition
they so greatly deserve because right now these
dogs are not officially given honors. If you
hear about a dog who gets a Purple Heart or any
kind of recognition, it's not sanctioned by the
DOD. It's a commanding officer or someone who
realizes the incredible value of these dogs.
and wants to do something nice for the dog and
handler, but the DOD doesn't sanction that right
now, and the handlers are not too happy about
that. Ron, I don't know if you can, I know you
can contribute a whole show on this. Back, I
guess, right after we went into Afghanistan back
in late 2001, I had a lot of handlers that were
emailing me and saying, why can't my dog get
recognition for what he or she does? That's a
good question. Why can't they? I wrote to the
DOD. I think it was at that time Cohen was in
as Secretary of Defense. I wrote a letter to
him. Of course, they got back to me and said,
we don't give recognition to dogs. Medals are
only for humans. I wrote several times every
year. Then my last time I wrote to them, I changed
it a little. I said, look, I'm not asking for
for any of these medals that go to the soldiers
or marines or so forth to be used for these dogs.
I'm asking the DOD to actually create a medal
specifically for the dog so this way it doesn't
infringe on any other awards or medals that the
soldiers get. And of course then they turned
around and still said no. So my last option was
we are willing, our organization is willing to
create a medal, a service award medal for these
dogs. Would you sanction it? And of course they
came back and said, well we can't sanction a
civilian organization. So we went ahead anyway
and we created our own service award for the
military dogs and the soldiers, the handlers,
they make a request. We have a form on our website
and they send it in and we actually sent out
a certificate and the medal to the dog. I think
that's terrific. If you want to get in on a conversation
about soldier dogs here, we've got experts all
over the place today. Give us a call here at
Veterans Radio at 877 -573 -7825. We're talking
with Maria Godavich, the author of Soldier Dogs.
We've got the president of the Dog Handlers Association
on the phone, and we've got a dog handler in
the studio. So if you have any questions, feel
free to give us a call. Maria, I wanted to ask
you about the dogs. What type of dogs are they
looking for? I know you have a golden retriever
named Jake who you don't think really could quite
make it. He's loyal in all the other things,
but he might get distracted. Yeah, he's actually
a yellow lab, so speaking of distracted, he's
a bit goofy, but he has the drive. What they're
really looking for, yes, breeds are super important,
but they don't really go along breed lines. If
you have a mixed breed dog, that's fine. In fact,
Okay, first of all, we buy, the DOD buys most
dogs overseas, in Europe and Eastern Europe,
and that's because they have a very long history
of, and this is today, I'm not talking historically,
but today, because they have a long history of
these police dog sports, and they have been bred
for kind of the stuff that police and US military
working dogs do, and so they've got that, and
apparently the US just does not have that going.
There are some dogs that we do procure in the
United States from breeders here, but they're
very few and far between. So we go over there
and buy trips about six times a year and look
for these dogs through these vendors. And they've
been selected by the breeders, sell them to the
vendors, and they're about two years old when
they get them. And generally these days, a lot
of shepherds and a lot of malinois and Belgian
malinois, like the dog who was involved on the
Osama bin Laden raid. and they'll mix other breeds
into them though. Let's say you want a malinois
who has a little more stability, a little less,
say, nervousness. You might put a little shepherd
in them or sometimes even mix pit bulls or all
kinds of other breeds in them. So sometimes it's
hard to tell the difference between certain breeds
that are military working dogs and they just
make a guess. say you know this looks more like
a a melanois because it has this line but it
could equally be a shepherd so it's very interesting
but beyond the reed they're looking for and it
sounds funny but they're looking for the drive
to play with the ball the drive to find the ball
so what they do is they'll take a kong and the
hard red rubber ball usually or a tennis ball
and they will hide it somewhere and they will
look for the dogs Drive to find that ball and
to play with that dog and it's ball and it has
to be Super strong for them to want that ball
because that ball and the praise from the handler
are the two Paychecks as they call it that these
dogs get and if they don't want their paycheck
enough They're not they're gonna say, you know,
dude, you know, it's hot here. I'm gonna guess
it I don't I don't care about that I'm not gonna
work and so they don't want that happening over
there. So they they find these dogs Hopefully
usually with a high high high drive high play
and prey drive and then they bring them back
to the U .S. and train them up at Lackland. And
then they don't really look for, they don't say,
okay, well, you know, you look like you could
be a good combat tracker. You look like you could
be a good, just a plain old explosive detector.
They go by need usually. And when they do get
a dog like a Labrador Retriever, they're not
going to put them, you know, they're not going
to be a patrol dog. They're not going to be attacking
the bad guy or anything. So they'll just be pretty
much sniffer dogs, sometimes combat trackers
these days. I met a dog named Lars, I don't know
if you came across him in the book yet, but he's
a little Jack Russell Terrier, and he was supposed
to be a drug sniffing dog, but he ended up being
trained as a bomb sniffing dog because of a mistake
at dog school. I don't know what happened, but
he's a great little bomb sniffer now, he's not
in the front lines or anything, he's here in
the U .S., and when I met him he was in a...
submarine and we went down the submarine together
and it was an exercise but sure enough he found
the explosives under a pillow in a bunk and he
has a little Napoleon attitude. He thinks he
is just all that and so it can be any breed but
generally these days shepherds and melons. It's
interesting for those of you that we do try to
webcast our program when we have the opportunity
when the slide that we're showing right now is
of that dog Lars getting ready to go down in
the hole of the sub. That's a lot easier than
a shepherd going down the hole in that sub. That's
what they seem to usually have on that sub, they
said. Backbreaking work for the people lowering
the dog into the sub when it's not a small dog
like that. They've been using terriers going
back to early 80s. Lacklin had them and they
would use them on also aircraft because they're
a small dog. They can get under seats into small
crevices to smell for. for explosives. They have
been using them for quite a while, but they're
really cute to see when they're working. They
move so quickly and they do a really good job.
Yeah. I just thought the whole story was funny.
I have finished the book. I must say I finished
it. It might have been pretty early this morning,
but I did finish it. It's a great read for those
of you out there that want to know more about
military dogs or soldier dogs. and really what
they do and the different types of dogs. And
we've got about two minutes before we take a
break at the bottom of the hour. And when we
come back, I want to talk a little bit about
the different types of dogs and their different
specialties. But I've got a call on the line
from somebody who's going to ask an interesting
little question, I believe. And it's got Terry
from Ypsilini, Michigan. And Terry, welcome to
Veterans Radio. Hi. Thanks for taking my call.
I understand you had a little question. Yeah,
this is going to sound dumb but when I think
back to dogs in the military I go back to the
days of my youth and think of Rin Tin Tin and
Rusty and also I also think of Sergeant Preston
of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and his
dog Yukon King Yukon King and those kinds of
portrayals and I just was wondering within the
your studies of the history going back Were there
ever dogs like that in the days even before World
War II? The other portrayal of dogs is always
as guard dogs, especially the Germans with using
guard dogs guarding prisoners. Which came first,
the use of dogs to guard prisoners by the Germans?
us taking up that whole strategy of utilizing
dogs or where did that all come from? Well, we
did, we did. Oh, go ahead. Did someone else chime
in on that? Okay, we'll take it. We did, we did
definitely take some, take the lead, well, take,
follow the lead of the Germans and what was going
on in Europe. Even in World War One, there were
people in the U .S. who really wanted to form
a military dog, well, a military working dog,
let's say. And they were not, they never happened.
We were seeing how powerful they were over there,
not just as guard dogs, but as even dogs who
would, who would messenger dogs or dogs who would
drag, drag supplies for the, they called Red
Cross dogs for the Red Cross or for the medical
use, you know, from one place to another. And,
and they, they did have like gas sniffing dogs
and They were utilized in all kinds of ways,
even back then, but we didn't get our official
program going until World War II. I've got to
jump in here, Maria. We're going to do a hard
break. We'll be right back here listening to
Veterans Radio. We're back on Veterans Radio.
We're talking with Maria Gadavich, the author
of Soldier Dogs, The Untold Story of America's
Canine Heroes. Also on the phone is the president
of the U .S. War Dogs Association, Rana Yalo.
And in the studio with me is Vance McCrum, a
dog handler, Air Force dog handler from back
in the 60s. And we're just finishing up a question
from a caller about how the soldier dogs evolved
in U .S. history. And Maria, you were answering
that question for Terry and Yves Solani. Yeah,
I think we got up to World War II there when
we did after the attack on Pearl Harbor. The
American Kettle Club and a group called Dogs
for Defense got us going and we said this is
about time. We need these dogs. They are so important
to the fight and they're going to really help
us. And then it was finally okay. World War II
is when the US dog program officially started.
And they didn't go overseas to get the dogs from
places like Germany. That would have not been
a good thing. They appealed to dog owners here.
to donate their pets for the war effort and that's
where you see Rin Tin Tin come in in the movies
and all that but the public response was absolutely
overwhelming and people really wanted to donate
their dogs and you know it was pretty amazing
what our pet dogs could do and the difference
in what they do then and what they do now it's
you know some they're extremely highly trained
now these dogs we buy but The dogs back then,
when my dad was in the war, were pretty amazing
and what they were able to do. They were the
big heroes and they got a lot of press. I just
got a book in the mail called Buddies. I don't
know if any of you know that book. It's absolutely
gorgeous. It's more about the mascot dogs in
the various wars. It just shows the companionship
these dogs provided. Sometimes they did these
very brave feats in the meantime. Well, and back
to World War I, you know, Sergeant Stubbe, someone
had mentioned Sergeant Stubbe, and he untrained,
alerted to a gas attack by the Germans and saved
many, many American lives. And he also was able
to nab a German infiltrator. And this is an untrained
dog. This is a little pit bull. who saved many
lives, and I actually visited him recently at
the Smithsonian Institution's American History
Museum, where he still stands. So if anyone takes
a summer vacation, goes to D .C. this summer,
you can go see an old World War I hero dog, even
though he wasn't an official military dog, he
was sneaked overseas. It shows that dogs didn't
have to be these super highly trained military
dogs back then. Now we have these amazing soldier
dogs. who are, but there's a long history, and
even before World War I, people were using dogs.
Can I expand on that a little bit? Actually,
if you look at a lot of photos or images of the
American Indians, you always see that there were
dog packs with them, and what they would do is
when they set up their camp at night, they used
their dogs as sentry dogs. When the cavalry would
try to sneak in or raid their camp, when they
got in there, they would find the fire burning,
food setting around, but nobody would be in the
camp because the dog would alert them that the
cavalry were trying to sneak in. Our cavalry
actually started to kind of use that a little
bit themselves on a very limited basis. They
would actually bring a dog along with them. on
patrol. That was one of the earlier sensory dogs
being used in the United States. Good historical
fact. Thanks Terry for your call. I want to remind
people to go to Maria's website for this book
at www .soldierdogs .com and there's a great
selection of photographs. The book includes great
photographs also of the various dogs that she
talks about in the book and their handlers. and
there is even a picture of the dog in the Smithsonian
who was, you know, something like Roy Rogers
in Trigger. They live forever. Could you just
tell me a little bit, Maria, about the different
types of dogs? Because you mentioned that each,
not their breed or anything, but their skill
levels, what they learn in school. No, they're
specialties. They're specialties for their jobs.
Yeah, well today the most important job are the
ones who sniff out the bomb. So they're either
explosives detection dogs or patrol explosives
detection dogs. I'd say they're called PEDs or
EDs, and the PEDs, the P -E -D -Ds, the Patrol
Explosive Detection Dogs, are the ones who are
most commonly used in today's fight. Everyone's
life is in their nose, basically, and they lead
the troops through these mine -infected fields
or buildings. poppy fields, grape vine areas,
and it's just incredible what they can do and
what they sniff out in the conditions. So they
lead the way, then the handler, sometimes there's
a minesweeper up there too, and all these other
troops are behind them. And they depend on this
dog's nose to prevent them from walking on or
setting off these IEDs, which are the number
one killer in Afghanistan. And dogs have saved
so many lives, you can't quantify because you
don't know how many lives a dog actually saves
when you sniff out a bomb. But it's incredible,
and that's the main use today of these dogs.
So the nose is everything with the dog now. And
certainly, they have drug -sniffing dogs as well.
And one of the really interesting dog jobs, I
think, is combat tracker dogs. Explosives dogs
sniff out the explosives. The combat tracker
dogs, they sniff out the guy who planted the
explosives. So they're the ones who can track
through time, in a way. These dogs, the people
who plant the bombs, and we've found so many
people that way, or just the guy running away,
the bad guy. They can actually find the good
guy too. Someone's lost, someone's missing, they
found kids, they're incredible. Again, everyone's
life depends on their nose. And as Ron and Vince
can attest to, it's the bond that forms when
you're over there deployed 24 -7, depending on
the dog's nose, and your life depends on him,
and he depends on you or she. It's incredible,
and I feel like they can speak to this much better.
I do deal a lot with that in the book, but everyone
is just so dependent. You do depend on each other,
and century dogs, They'd be out on patrol at
night in a section of the perimeter. They'd be
patrolling back and forth, and it's just the
two of them depending on each other. We know
about Nemo in Vietnam, what Thornburg and Nemo
did that evening. What a bond that forms between
those two. They both depend on each other. Yeah,
and same thing with scout dogs. You know, you're
out there on a patrol out front leading a patrol.
You're kind of like the first line of defense
with that patrol. And the two of you just totally
depend on each other to protect each other. Hey,
Ron, this is Vance. Would you go into Airman
Thornburg and Nemo's event that evening down
at Thompson? Thornburg and Nemo, they were at
the Pantanute Air Base in South Vietnam and they
had been having problems with that air base with
the infiltration, the Viet Cong trying to infiltrate
for several nights. And on this particular night,
Thornburg and Nemo were working their section
of the perimeter and Nemo alerted out into the
darkness and Thornburg kind of looked out there
and he's looking and all of a sudden he sees
three, four Viet Cong coming in their arms. They
got satchel charges and everything. So there's
no time to call him for backup, so what he does
is he starts firing at them and he releases Nemo,
and Nemo goes in for the attack. They fire back,
Thornburg gets shot in the shoulder, he goes
down, and as he's laying on the ground, he looks
out into the darkness and you see Nemo's attacking
these three, four Vietcong. So this gives him
enough time, Thornburg enough time to actually
get his radio and call in for backup. Well, by
the time backup came in, Thornburg was on the
ground, passed out on his back. Nemo was laying
across his chest. The Vietcong were gone except
one was dead. And what was amazing about the
story, Nemo immediately came back to his handler
and laid across his chest to protect him. But
Nemo also had his right eye shot out. When he
first went in for the attack, the Vietcong shot
him. blew out his right eye, came out the side
of his jaw, tore a big gash. But he continued
the fight via comms because this is what he's
been trained to do. And then once they retreated,
the first thing in his mind was to go back and
protect his comrade, his friend, his buddy. And
that's Nemo's story. Of course, he wasn't able
to work after that. I think they actually tried
to see if they could work him, but he couldn't.
So he came back to the States and he was kind
of a hero and went around the country. They have
a small memorial at Lackland Air Force Base for
Nemo at this point. There are many stories like
Nemo. It sounds like in your book you have many
of them in there that you talk about where these
dogs go that extra mile. to protect their handlers.
In addition to the handlers, of course, going
the extra mile to protect their dogs, too. Right.
It goes around. That bond is both ways. And there's
one, remind me of the NEMO story in a way, but
just there was a handler, a Marine dog handler,
Mark Vierig, who was, he was on a long mission
in Afghanistan, and his dog, they had to sleep
in foxholes. And every night, and he, He'd tuck
in his dog next to him in the foxhole, and it
was the rainy season in Afghanistan, and he'd
have to wake up a couple times a night to get
the water out, because even though it's covered
by tarp, of course there's water pouring in.
And he'd look, the first night this happened,
it was the weirdest thing, because his dog wasn't
there. And he thought, oh my god, where's Lex?
And he peeled open the tarp, and there's Lex
standing there. on all fours standing with his
ears alert, he's a Belgian Malinois, his ears
up just standing as this man's personal sentry,
protecting his man all night and the dog did
not want to come back in and he finally dragged
him back in and sure enough next time he'd wake
up the dog was standing there in the pouring
rain. This happened for a month, pretty much
every night the dog was out there and he asked
the dog, when do you sleep dog? And the dog didn't
answer, but you know, he was just an amazing
dog and that kind of bond is incredible. There's
another dog in the book who, Patrick, who he's
really, you know, you're in a firefight, you
got your dog beside you and this dog, you know,
some dogs are a little gun shy. This dog, he
was so mellow, he's eating grass while there's
a major firefight going on with the Taliban.
And he had that kind of mellow personality, but
he would be there. protect him at any cost, and
he paid the final cost. Unfortunately, he was
leading some of these guys through a poppy field
and looking for some IDs they knew were planted.
And what a dog does when he or she finds a bomb
is they alert in some ways, and it depends on
how the dog's been trained and their personality,
but sometimes they'll lie down, sometimes they'll
sit, sometimes it's just a slight change of behavior,
a wag of a tail. a little tilt of the head, so
the handler has to know really, really well,
know their dog, and this time, but this dog usually
lay down, this time, this dog lay down super
fast, faster than the handler had ever seen him
lie down, and that was the last we saw of him.
He apparently lay down right on the IED, and
it was, and... He saved their lives in doing
so. I've got to take a break. I've got to take
a break, so hold on. We'll be right back. And
we're back on Veterans Radio and we are talking
with Maria Gadavage about her book, Soldier Dogs.
And, you know, your book is amazing, Maria, and
I'm really, I'm so pleased that I was able to
read it. And I know Vance has already swiped
it from me. So let's see if we can inflate it.
But you mentioned so many different stories in
there and unfortunately we're not going to have
enough time to go into too many of them. But
I would like to talk about the Fenji. Fenji M675.
Yeah, I have to be careful in talking about Fenji
because she goes through the book and we don't
find out. I don't want to give the whole story
away. Yeah, we don't find out really what happens
to her but I met her at what they call Afghanistan
USA, what we're calling, which is the Yuma Proving
Grounds, Yuma Proving Ground where there's this
incredible pre -deployment program, the inter
-services advanced training, canine training,
and this is where you need to go if you're a
dog and handler these days before you go over
to Afghanistan or Iraq because the conditions
are so similar and they have They have mock buildings
and the ammo and the mortar and everyone tells
me that it is the closest you can come in the
U .S. And while I was there I saw this dog wearing
doggles or dog goggles and that intrigued me
because I knew we had a dog with doggles on the
cover of the book at that point and so I had
to go meet Fenji and I got her story and she
was redeploying. after a terrible tragedy involving
her Marine handler, Max Donahue, Corporal Max
Donahue. And they had been incredibly close.
And I'm not going to go into what happened because
people will want to find out on their own. But
this is a kind of a typical soldier dog or Marine
dog, American canine hero, where she went through
hell and back. And guess what? She's in pre -deployment.
She's back over there now, again, serving the
country. serving her handler, saving lives, and
she's not coming back for a few more months.
She's over there right now. So, incredible dog.
And after all she'd been through, and I was there
on her first couple of days of training, or pre
-deployment training, she was not gun shy. She
had come through it. She had gotten a lot of
tender loving care in the meantime, and she'd
been gradually acclimated back to the work. And
she was ready to roll, and she's over there now.
So I send my... Best wishes to her and her current
handler, Corporal Shepard. So in other words,
it sounds like she had PTSD? She did not, actually.
She did not have it. She was a little gun -shy
at first, but PTSD, I'm glad you brought that
up. I'll get back to her. She was pretty good.
They told us that she did not actually officially
qualify to have PTSD. They just gave her a lot
of R &R because she was physically injured. hearing
her eyesight were really kind of blown for a
while. She was bleeding out her ears after this
event that happened over in Afghanistan, but
once she was physically rested and mentally rested,
she was okay. She didn't need the drug therapy
that a lot of these dogs get, but I'm really
glad you mentioned PTSD because that is something
that the Military Working Dog Program and the
DOD are finally recognizing that dogs... can
get PTSD. They call it canine PTSD. Of course,
the symptoms are slightly different. They call
them signs. But the signs include hypervigilance,
increased startle response, the attempt to run
away or escape, withdrawal, change the rapport
with the handler. And they're scared of things
that they would never normally be scared of.
And they do recognize that this is a disorder
in these dogs. And they're reaching out to do
more research. to treat these dogs. I mean, we
haven't got a handle on it with people, and they're
learning from PTSD in people what they can do
and can't do in dogs. And it's, of course, completely
different in some ways, but they do share some
similarities. And these dogs now, about a quarter
of them who are the dogs who are diagnosed with
this will not be going back to the fight, and
they'll be adopted out. And I actually met one
of these dogs in the kennels in in Lackland and
all these other dogs with the adoption kennels
and all these other dogs, the Malinois and the
Sheps and everyone else, where they were barking
and twirling and doing their usual energetic
kennel thing. And there was this one chocolate
lab curled up and just looking out into space
and not even looking at me, just oblivious to
the surroundings it seemed. And I said, whoa,
what's with that dog? And he said, yeah, he heard
one too many bombs. He's got PTSD. They don't
know exactly what set it off, of course, but
he was in Afghanistan and he was a sniffer dog.
and something happened. I'm told by veterinarians
there that these sporting dog breeds like Labs
are more prone to get it than the other breeds.
He received all the possible treatments, the
drug intervention, the rest, and nothing worked,
so he was adopted out. I'm actually going to
go see him when I go back to Lackland at the
end of the month for the military working dog
competition. I'm going to meet his new owners
who love him to death. They are doing so much
for him. They adopted a a puppy for him and that
really seems to have brought him partly out of
this and he's really doing very, very well. He
still has his signs of this and he's not over
it, of course, but it's great to see that they
do at least recognize this now. We've talked
a lot about the different types of dogs that
go through the training with the soldier dogs
or the various services. Can you tell me a little
bit about what they're looking for in the handlers?
Yeah, well the handler has to really want to
do this. First of all, the handlers that we're
talking about in the book mostly are military
police equivalents, so whatever branch of service
that is. They're the ones who are in law enforcement,
and although I should say there are exceptions,
there's the Marine IDD program where they are
not. It's a different program though, and it's
probably fairly short -lived. It was an emergency
program called for by Petraeus. the standard
military dog handler is in law enforcement in
the military and so that's number one. Number
two, you have to really want to be a dog handler
these days because they are, it's a highly coveted
job, it's prestigious and you have to love dogs,
not be afraid of dogs. Sometimes people get all
the way through training, part way through training
and then they meet their dog and they don't realize
the power of these dogs and the level of of energy
these dogs have and sometimes the handler just
goes, yeah, I can't do this. And then they go
back to regular MP work and someone else, some
other lucky soul gets to work with that dog.
And you have to be willing, you have to be very
physically, well, you should be very physically
fit. Some are more than others, but you have
to be willing to take the bite because you've
got to wear that sleeve or wear that bite suit
and have dogs running at you at who knows how
many miles per hour and take the, if you're going
to be a patrol handler and even if you're not,
you have to know how to. how to handle these
dogs. A lot of these people have not been brought
up with dogs. Many have, but some just love dogs
so much. They have to pay their dues. I met some
Navy handlers who spent two years helping around
the kennels. They were MPs, well, the Navy is
equivalent to Masters of the Arms. They were
shoveling poop, they were cleaning the kennels,
they were taking the bites. They were just doing
whatever they could to prove that they want to
do this. And so they are so happy by the time
they finally get to Lackland and get to go to
the handler's course. So they have that drive
to be with the dog. And they seem to have, they
are amazed. When I talk to the young, the new
handlers, the people at dog school, they're amazed
at how much they've fallen in love with their
dog so fast. Because these dogs, they have dogs
at dog schools, you can imagine, or a handler's
course, who help train. these handlers so they're
called training aids and these are dogs who may
have served and gotten a little bit too old or
not quite right for serving but they can be here
in the U .S. serving as teachers and same with
they may be washouts they may not be ready to
go they may not ever be able to go overseas or
and serve in war but they're here to help, they've
been trained up enough so that they can help
a handler, a new handler learn. And so some of
these guys are like, yeah, my dog taught me everything.
You know, it's like, hey, you know, come over
here, buddy, and I'll sniff out the bomb for
you. You give me my Kong and we're good. So they
learn from these dogs who are kind of sages and
then these dogs can get adopted out as well.
So it's quite a program and there's a lot of
love there. You mentioned in the book and we're
coming up, we've got about four minutes left
and the time is sped by too quickly as usual.
But you mentioned in the book about the adoption
programs, about the incredible medical care that
these dogs receive now. The facilities are equivalent
to and in some cases better than some of them
some humans get. It sounded like it lacked one.
But you said that there's been an upsurge in
the adoption of these animals. And some of them
are physically scarred, some of them are mentally
scarred, and some of them are just getting old.
Right and but what's interesting is everybody
after after the bin Laden raid everybody was
calling Lachlan saying I want to adopt Cairo
the dog who was involved in the raid and they're
like oh yeah we don't have Cairo but we do have
other dogs and so the list got to be about 18
months long for for adopting and they vet them
too so they're not going to take everybody who
wants to adopt a military dog because there are
people who want to adopt a dog for long reasons
too so they they're right now currently almost
18 months if you want to adopt on these dogs
and generally they're not going to be dogs who
have deployed with a handler because that handler
or another handler is probably going to be first
on the list and really want that dog and fight
to get that dog and handlers and other law enforcement
are first on the list. But it's absolutely a
completely worthy program and Ron helps people
with that and I definitely want to give a plug
to Ron's group. Because it's, you definitely,
Ron, give your website, because if people really
want to know how to support these dog teams and
what they can do, and his organization is my
favorite, it's the Primo one, and I don't know
if we have time, but tell a little about what
you can do for the dogs and how you can support
them. Well, our website is uswardogs .org. and
we have a lot of information on there for adopting
dogs or supporting the K -9 teams that are serving
in the Middle East. It's all there for you to
read and my contact information is right there
on the website. You can email me, phone me and
I'll give you whatever information you need.
One point I'd like to make real quick, we keep
mentioning Lackland Air Force Base and just for
your listeners, That is where the National War
Dog Memorial will be located now, will be at
Lackland Air Force Base and it will probably
be about two years before they actually have
a dedication. Alright, well we can find out more
information about that. Thank you so very much,
Ron, for being on Veterans Radio. Thank you.
Maria, I wanted to thank you so very much. I
can't wait to have you back on again and talk
more about this because there's so much information
inside of this book. that I think our audiences
would love to know about. It's Soldier Dogs,
the untold story of America's canine heroes.
Go to her website, soldierdogs .com. You're going
to get great information and some great pictures.
Thank you so much. It was a pleasure being here.
Thank you very much, Maria. Thank you. Thank
you both. And Vance, I want to just add, we've
got about a minute to go. And I know, in reading
her book and in talking to you, that your dogs,
all three of them, were very special to you.
Oh, absolutely. There's a bond that's formed
whether you served in a war zone or whether you
were in a peacetime area or a stateside. You
form a bond with your dog that's there forever.
I think of all three of my dogs just about every
day. I know you do. I know you do. I know you
would have liked to have the opportunity to adopt
them like they do today. Thanks so very much.
You're welcome. Thanks for inviting me into your
studio. And we will be back next week with another
program. We want to thank our sponsors, US Wings.
until next week you've been listening to Veterans
Radio, you are dismissed.