WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.680 dedicated to the memory of Corporal Charles McMahon 00:00:02.680 --> 00:00:05.700 and Corporal Darwin Judge and all the past and 00:00:05.700 --> 00:00:08.439 present members of the Marine Security Guards. 00:00:29.929 --> 00:00:33.530 The number one veterans radio program, Veterans 00:00:33.530 --> 00:00:45.729 Radio. And now, here's your host for today, Dale 00:00:45.729 --> 00:00:49.729 Throneberry. Good morning America and welcome 00:00:49.729 --> 00:00:52.070 to Veterans Radio on a beautiful day here in 00:00:52.070 --> 00:00:54.909 Michigan and all across the country. We've got 00:00:54.909 --> 00:00:57.009 a great program for you. We're going to be talking 00:00:57.009 --> 00:00:59.509 about the fall of Saigon and the last men out. 00:00:59.710 --> 00:01:01.750 It's a new book coming out I believe probably 00:01:01.750 --> 00:01:05.430 today authored by Bob Drury and Tom Clavin and 00:01:05.430 --> 00:01:07.310 we're going to be having them on after our first 00:01:07.310 --> 00:01:10.170 break and we got pictures on the webcast if you're 00:01:10.170 --> 00:01:12.090 interested in looking at that just go to Veterans 00:01:12.090 --> 00:01:15.670 Radio and click on watch us live. It's going 00:01:15.670 --> 00:01:19.250 to be, I found it a rather fascinating book. 00:01:19.950 --> 00:01:22.250 I was talking to a friend this morning, actually 00:01:22.250 --> 00:01:23.689 I was talking to Gary this morning and I was 00:01:23.689 --> 00:01:25.950 saying after I read it that that was a part of 00:01:25.950 --> 00:01:28.129 my life that I had blocked out because April 00:01:28.129 --> 00:01:31.489 30th, 1975 is when the last helicopter flew off 00:01:31.489 --> 00:01:34.590 the top of the United States Embassy and ended 00:01:34.590 --> 00:01:39.170 our involvement in Vietnam. It's a really strong 00:01:39.170 --> 00:01:41.390 story. Running our board this morning is our 00:01:41.390 --> 00:01:44.530 air boss, Bob Gould. Good morning, Bob. Airborne! 00:01:44.629 --> 00:01:48.250 Airborne all the way. And we've got a number 00:01:48.250 --> 00:01:51.170 of other people hiding out back there. Gary Lilly 00:01:51.170 --> 00:01:53.290 is going to be running the photos through the 00:01:53.290 --> 00:01:57.370 webcast. CVs can do. And Kai is back there running 00:01:57.370 --> 00:01:59.209 all of our music and everything else. Yeah, he's 00:01:59.209 --> 00:02:01.530 doing his morning over there. We're doing just 00:02:01.530 --> 00:02:05.629 fine. Radio is great. Live radio is amazing. 00:02:05.790 --> 00:02:07.670 We come right up to the last second. Oh, this 00:02:07.670 --> 00:02:09.930 isn't working. Oh, there it goes. OK, it's working 00:02:09.930 --> 00:02:12.469 now. So we're going to be doing that. I'm going 00:02:12.469 --> 00:02:15.569 to go right into our first break here in just 00:02:15.569 --> 00:02:18.430 a moment, get Bob getting ready for it. And we're 00:02:18.430 --> 00:02:19.889 going to be coming back. We're going to be talking 00:02:19.889 --> 00:02:23.259 with Bob Jury and Tom Clavin and Steve Shuler 00:02:23.259 --> 00:02:26.120 about the last men out, the last helicopter off 00:02:26.120 --> 00:02:29.639 the roof of the embassy in Saigon on 30th of 00:02:29.639 --> 00:02:36.580 April 1975. We'll be right back. Vietnam is the 00:02:36.580 --> 00:02:38.460 topic today and we're going to be talking about 00:02:38.460 --> 00:02:41.039 the last aircraft out of Vietnam and the last 00:02:41.039 --> 00:02:43.620 Marines off the roof of the embassy and we're 00:02:43.620 --> 00:02:45.460 going to be talking with the authors of the book, 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:47.719 The Last Men Out. I'm going to show you on the 00:02:47.719 --> 00:02:50.759 webcast here. And first, joining me on the line 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:52.479 are the authors. And first of all, we're going 00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:57.340 to have Bob Drury and Tom Glavin. And Bob and 00:02:57.340 --> 00:03:00.780 Tom, welcome to Veterans Radio. Good morning, 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:02.680 Mr. Strombury. I believe you're talking to people. 00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:04.379 We have a really bad connection. I'm sorry. I 00:03:04.379 --> 00:03:06.539 just seem to have lost you. OK. Well, we'll give 00:03:06.539 --> 00:03:08.180 you a call back. Why don't you hang up and we'll 00:03:08.180 --> 00:03:11.740 give you a call right back. Right? So who's left 00:03:11.740 --> 00:03:16.750 on the line? Tom, you're still there? Yes, I'm 00:03:16.750 --> 00:03:18.909 here. Okay, Tom. We're going to be calling Bob 00:03:18.909 --> 00:03:21.669 back to get him on line, but I wanted to welcome 00:03:21.669 --> 00:03:24.550 you to Veterans Radio. Thank you for having us 00:03:24.550 --> 00:03:28.610 on. It should be. I'm hoping it's... You've written 00:03:28.610 --> 00:03:30.849 a number of other books, and you currently write... 00:03:30.849 --> 00:03:32.530 Are you still contributing to the New York Times? 00:03:33.349 --> 00:03:35.710 No, I haven't for a few years, mostly because 00:03:35.710 --> 00:03:39.669 I'm focusing on book work. Okay. I'm sorry I 00:03:39.669 --> 00:03:41.349 wasn't able to do my homework this morning. We 00:03:41.349 --> 00:03:44.180 had a couple of technical glitches here. Tell 00:03:44.180 --> 00:03:45.759 me some of the other books that you've been involved 00:03:45.759 --> 00:03:50.000 with. Well, there's a book that I did last year 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:52.500 that was a biography of the baseball player Roger 00:03:52.500 --> 00:03:56.500 Maris. Some people remember him, not only with 00:03:56.500 --> 00:03:58.699 the New York Yankees, but he had a few successful 00:03:58.699 --> 00:04:01.939 years with the St. Louis Cardinals also. That 00:04:01.939 --> 00:04:03.780 one is actually the paperback version of that, 00:04:03.800 --> 00:04:06.819 just from coming out. Bob and I have collaborated 00:04:06.819 --> 00:04:09.259 on two previous books. One was called Halsey's 00:04:09.259 --> 00:04:12.509 Typhoon, which is a World War II story. Then 00:04:12.509 --> 00:04:15.650 we followed that with a book called Last Stand 00:04:15.650 --> 00:04:18.209 of Fox Company, which is about a company of Marines 00:04:18.209 --> 00:04:20.610 in the Korean War. Okay. We're going to have 00:04:20.610 --> 00:04:22.029 to talk about that because I remember reading 00:04:22.029 --> 00:04:24.110 Halsey's Typhoon. I said, this is something we 00:04:24.110 --> 00:04:26.050 need to talk about on the air. We need to get 00:04:26.050 --> 00:04:28.550 a hold of you. Yeah. Actually, there's a connection 00:04:28.550 --> 00:04:31.949 when we get Bob back on the line. There's a connection 00:04:31.949 --> 00:04:36.269 between Halsey's Typhoon and how the Last Man 00:04:36.269 --> 00:04:38.389 Out book actually with the original concept for 00:04:38.389 --> 00:04:40.920 it came about. Okay, we've got Bob back on the 00:04:40.920 --> 00:04:43.459 line. Bob, welcome back to Veterans Radio. I'm 00:04:43.459 --> 00:04:45.240 sorry about that. I am back on the line, yes. 00:04:45.420 --> 00:04:49.079 Are you in New Jersey? Yes, I am. In Manisquan? 00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:52.939 I am. Do you know it? I was born in Spring Lake. 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:56.079 Oh, the Irish Riviera, eh? Yeah, well, Spring 00:04:56.079 --> 00:05:01.079 Lake Heights, you know. Close enough. It is very 00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:02.939 close. Thank you very much. No, my aunt lived 00:05:02.939 --> 00:05:05.000 on Church Street in Manisquan. Sorry everybody, 00:05:05.019 --> 00:05:08.300 you know, got to do a little reminiscing back 00:05:08.300 --> 00:05:10.720 here. We're right up the street from Church Street. 00:05:10.899 --> 00:05:13.839 OK. It's a great place to be from. I'll see you 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:18.959 tomorrow, sir. I was just talking with Tom about 00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:21.379 the other books that you've collaborated on. 00:05:22.120 --> 00:05:24.500 And I wanted to start off with you, Bob, about 00:05:24.500 --> 00:05:28.240 what made you decide to write this story? Well, 00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:31.220 in my day job, so to speak, I work for Men's 00:05:31.220 --> 00:05:35.379 Health magazine. And I'm downrange a lot. I've 00:05:35.379 --> 00:06:07.040 been in Iraq. a dozen times. I got to tell you, 00:06:07.160 --> 00:06:09.800 Dale, I'm a pretty good researcher. But if you 00:06:09.800 --> 00:06:13.439 threw me in the Library of Congress or the National 00:06:13.439 --> 00:06:15.939 Archives or the Jerry Ford Museum, you'd have 00:06:15.939 --> 00:06:17.519 to come and get me in about six months with a 00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:20.120 miner's light on your hat. Whereas Tom goes into 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:23.920 these places and he just finds the nub of the 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:27.199 story. And he did some research and he said, 00:06:27.480 --> 00:06:29.339 did you know, now I don't want to give away the 00:06:29.339 --> 00:06:31.019 ending of the book, but he said, did you know 00:06:31.019 --> 00:06:35.009 this happened? I said, no, I had no idea. Whether 00:06:35.009 --> 00:06:36.889 it was Halsey's typhoon, whether it was the last 00:06:36.889 --> 00:06:39.470 stand of Fox company, or now with last men out, 00:06:39.730 --> 00:06:42.649 Tom and I, I guess you would say our MOS, is 00:06:42.649 --> 00:06:45.430 we like to take stories that have ordinary men 00:06:45.430 --> 00:06:48.009 in extraordinary circumstances. And these were 00:06:48.009 --> 00:06:50.709 certainly extraordinary circumstances for these 00:06:50.709 --> 00:06:53.529 Marine security guards that were trapped in Saigon 00:06:53.529 --> 00:06:57.970 in 1975. Absolutely, and that's a line that we 00:06:57.970 --> 00:07:01.089 use all the time as we tell stories about ordinary 00:07:01.089 --> 00:07:04.029 people who have done extraordinary things. And 00:07:04.029 --> 00:07:06.649 Tom, tell me a little bit about the Marine Security 00:07:06.649 --> 00:07:09.829 Guard. I wasn't that familiar with them. Well, 00:07:09.930 --> 00:07:12.029 yeah, I just want to interject something, just 00:07:12.029 --> 00:07:14.649 to add to something that Bob said is, you know, 00:07:15.410 --> 00:07:18.370 your show is, everybody across the country can 00:07:18.370 --> 00:07:21.930 hear it, but you're in Michigan, and there's 00:07:21.930 --> 00:07:25.149 a connection there to Last Man Out because when 00:07:25.149 --> 00:07:29.129 our first book came out, Halsey's Typhoon, we 00:07:29.129 --> 00:07:31.449 were both on book tours, but we went separately 00:07:31.449 --> 00:07:33.860 to different parts of the country. One of my 00:07:33.860 --> 00:07:37.060 stops was at the Gerald Ford Museum in Grand 00:07:37.060 --> 00:07:43.199 Rapids and where they have the stairway from 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:45.779 the last day of Saigon, the stairway that was 00:07:45.779 --> 00:07:48.779 used to climb up onto the roof and get those 00:07:48.779 --> 00:07:51.459 people onto the helicopter from the iconic photograph. 00:07:52.459 --> 00:07:55.399 And I remember being taken on a tour there and 00:07:55.399 --> 00:07:57.839 those people are not familiar with the Gerald 00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:00.459 Ford Library in Ann Arbor and the museum in Grand 00:08:00.459 --> 00:08:03.069 Rapids there. They're really wonderful places 00:08:03.069 --> 00:08:06.269 and a great staff out there. I remember being 00:08:06.269 --> 00:08:07.709 taken around a little bit and somebody saying, 00:08:07.730 --> 00:08:09.889 you know, there's a really good story involved 00:08:09.889 --> 00:08:14.189 in the fall of Saigon. And I immediately said, 00:08:14.209 --> 00:08:16.050 oh yeah, I know it, just like we all sort of 00:08:16.050 --> 00:08:18.610 know the story. And actually it turned out that 00:08:18.610 --> 00:08:21.310 we didn't. Bob and I went on this voyage of discovery 00:08:21.310 --> 00:08:23.810 to find out that there's a lot we certainly did 00:08:23.810 --> 00:08:29.129 not know about the last day in Saigon. And so, 00:08:29.129 --> 00:08:32.090 you know, by doing some research and talking 00:08:32.090 --> 00:08:36.590 to the people involved and, you know, as Bob 00:08:36.590 --> 00:08:39.450 will point out, too, the gentlemen we got to 00:08:39.450 --> 00:08:43.049 meet and talk to who were actually involved in 00:08:43.049 --> 00:08:46.070 the last days, the Marine Security Guards, were 00:08:46.070 --> 00:08:47.889 really generous with their time and with their 00:08:47.889 --> 00:08:49.789 recollections. And obviously, you know, this 00:08:49.789 --> 00:08:52.169 book wouldn't exist if they were not so generous 00:08:52.169 --> 00:08:54.309 with their recollections. Well, I was talking 00:08:54.309 --> 00:08:56.899 with your publicist yesterday. And after I had 00:08:56.899 --> 00:08:58.759 read the book, I said it was a time period. I 00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:02.379 had blocked that whole time out intentionally 00:09:02.379 --> 00:09:04.039 or unintentionally. I didn't even think about 00:09:04.039 --> 00:09:06.879 it. But as I read the book and read about all 00:09:06.879 --> 00:09:09.600 of the screw -ups that were going on and the 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:12.100 miscommunications, it just got me more and more 00:09:12.100 --> 00:09:16.659 upset about our exit from Vietnam. Because the 00:09:16.659 --> 00:09:19.419 real story in here, of course, is the Marine 00:09:19.419 --> 00:09:21.720 detachment there, the last 11 guys to get off 00:09:21.720 --> 00:09:26.009 the roof. But the side stories are all of the 00:09:26.009 --> 00:09:30.269 interagency conflicts and bullying and not talking 00:09:30.269 --> 00:09:33.529 to anybody and trying to save face and so on 00:09:33.529 --> 00:09:36.090 and so forth that are really... Deception. Deception. 00:09:36.370 --> 00:09:40.289 I mean, the CIA was deceiving, yeah. And I've 00:09:40.289 --> 00:09:41.870 got Steve Shuler on the line. I just want to 00:09:41.870 --> 00:09:44.490 bring him on for just a second. Steve, welcome 00:09:44.490 --> 00:09:47.629 to Veterans Radio. Hey, glad to be here. I'm 00:09:47.629 --> 00:09:50.029 sure you're glad to be anywhere, right? Really, 00:09:50.250 --> 00:09:52.789 especially today. When we go back and we look 00:09:52.789 --> 00:09:55.669 at the picture and when you first read the book, 00:09:55.850 --> 00:09:57.529 Steve, when I talked to you, Steve was on the 00:09:57.529 --> 00:10:01.190 roof that last day. You were a Marine on the 00:10:01.190 --> 00:10:04.970 roof on April 30th of 1975. What was going through 00:10:04.970 --> 00:10:10.129 your mind at that time? Peace. The only thing 00:10:10.129 --> 00:10:12.990 you could remember was how peaceful and quiet 00:10:12.990 --> 00:10:15.149 looking over the whole city was. There was no 00:10:15.149 --> 00:10:18.490 one moving, nothing going on. It was an eerie 00:10:18.490 --> 00:10:19.929 feeling because you didn't know what the heck 00:10:19.929 --> 00:10:21.690 was going on, but you knew something was going 00:10:21.690 --> 00:10:26.470 on. And it was just a quiet little moment that 00:10:26.470 --> 00:10:28.690 you didn't know what was going to happen and 00:10:28.690 --> 00:10:31.350 when. Well, that's for sure. And you guys were 00:10:31.350 --> 00:10:33.509 very brave. I'm going to ask you to hold on the 00:10:33.509 --> 00:10:34.710 line, Steve. We're going to get back to you and 00:10:34.710 --> 00:10:37.090 talk more about what was actually happening to 00:10:37.090 --> 00:10:39.389 you at the time. But I want to come back. We're 00:10:39.389 --> 00:10:41.970 talking with the authors of Last Men Out, Bob 00:10:41.970 --> 00:10:48.049 Drury and Tom Glavin. kind of give you a historical 00:10:48.049 --> 00:10:51.049 perspective of what was happening in Saigon at 00:10:51.049 --> 00:10:55.509 the time. The United States Marines or the official 00:10:55.509 --> 00:10:59.169 government deployment, I guess, of where people 00:10:59.169 --> 00:11:01.490 were is that they were evacuating people, weren't 00:11:01.490 --> 00:11:07.149 they? Yes, they were. There was the Operation 00:11:07.149 --> 00:11:09.870 Frequent Wind. What's that? No, go ahead. You 00:11:09.870 --> 00:11:13.289 take it. Yeah, Operation Frequent Wind was the 00:11:13.289 --> 00:11:16.399 name of the of the operation that was that there's 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:19.279 actually people and the the epicenter of the 00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:22.559 that was the u .s. embassy in saigon and What 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:24.700 they set up was that there's actually two places 00:11:24.700 --> 00:11:27.240 There's a DAO compound by the airport or in the 00:11:27.240 --> 00:11:31.100 airport and then there was a landing spot set 00:11:31.100 --> 00:11:33.899 up a couple landing spots in the embassy compound 00:11:33.899 --> 00:11:38.240 and so the the American personnel were being 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:40.720 evacuated. There were a lot of Vietnamese civilians 00:11:40.720 --> 00:11:43.879 who are being evacuated And it was the job of 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:45.860 the Marine security guards to sort of basically 00:11:45.860 --> 00:11:49.299 provide that security, and especially if possible, 00:11:49.320 --> 00:11:51.700 get people, get the helicopters down, landed, 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:53.659 get people on the helicopters, get them to take 00:11:53.659 --> 00:11:56.620 off, okay, next helicopter in. It was hour after 00:11:56.620 --> 00:11:58.480 hour of exhausting work to try and get as many 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:01.320 people as possible out of there because they 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:03.299 didn't know at any moment that the North Vietnamese 00:12:03.299 --> 00:12:05.299 troops were going to enter the city and shut 00:12:05.299 --> 00:12:08.399 everything down. Mr. Thurmbury, Drury here. I'm 00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:11.200 sure the humble Steve Schuler will disagree. 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:14.620 But I have to add that in the total confusion, 00:12:14.740 --> 00:12:18.860 in the total, the breakdown of communications, 00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:21.179 the deception that you mentioned earlier, it 00:12:21.179 --> 00:12:23.759 was the MSGs, the Marine Security Guards, who 00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:25.860 more or less acted as the rock. They more or 00:12:25.860 --> 00:12:28.600 less took control and said, even though there 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:30.879 were people higher on the food chain, so to speak, 00:12:30.899 --> 00:12:33.179 the ambassador, the ambassador's staff, it was 00:12:33.179 --> 00:12:35.620 the MSG contingent that just said, this is what 00:12:35.620 --> 00:12:37.480 we're going to do, this is how we're going to 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:39.620 get as many people out as we can, and this is 00:12:39.620 --> 00:12:41.539 how we're going to take control. of the situation. 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:46.159 I'm sure Sergeant Shuler is blushing as he listens 00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:49.080 to me say this, but he failed to mention to you 00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:51.279 that when he was on that roof, he had a bayonet 00:12:51.279 --> 00:12:55.279 wound in his side. That's right. He's too humble 00:12:55.279 --> 00:12:56.519 to mention that, but I thought I would bring 00:12:56.519 --> 00:12:59.899 that up. I was going to get to that, but I think 00:12:59.899 --> 00:13:02.559 it's so important. We've got to remember that 00:13:02.559 --> 00:13:05.159 we had promised the Vietnamese that if the North 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:07.240 invaded that we were going to go to their rescue 00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:11.529 or we were going to go help them. And we didn't, 00:13:11.750 --> 00:13:16.509 unfortunately. And the NVA that was coming down 00:13:16.509 --> 00:13:18.649 all the way from I Corps, all the way through, 00:13:18.750 --> 00:13:20.549 and there had already been one evacuation out 00:13:20.549 --> 00:13:23.389 of Da Nang that had gone kaflui, it sounded like. 00:13:24.450 --> 00:13:27.730 And this general, the NVA general, what's his 00:13:27.730 --> 00:13:30.950 name? General Dung. Yeah, General Dung. Unfortunately 00:13:30.950 --> 00:13:35.649 named General Dung. Right, yes. But he had Saigon 00:13:35.649 --> 00:13:39.460 surrounded, didn't he? He had 150 ,000 troops. 00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:43.799 They had washed through the Republic of Vietnam 00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:48.139 as if they opened the sluices to a dam. And I 00:13:48.139 --> 00:13:49.820 tell you what, there's another book to be written. 00:13:50.299 --> 00:13:52.840 Tom and I, in our setup, alluded to this, actually 00:13:52.840 --> 00:13:55.960 mentioned it, but why the Paris Peace Accords 00:13:55.960 --> 00:14:00.120 allowed North Vietnam to keep 130 ,000 troops. 00:14:00.379 --> 00:14:03.100 across the DMZ in the Republic of Vietnam after 00:14:03.100 --> 00:14:05.679 those papers were signed, I'll never know. And 00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:07.960 when they decided to break the Paris Peace Accords 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:10.580 and they swept down, General Dung, who was a 00:14:10.580 --> 00:14:13.519 master strategist and a master tactician, he 00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:17.279 expected more of a fight. He had told his superiors 00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:20.879 at the Hanoi Politburo that they would probably 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:25.360 take Saigon in 1976. They didn't expect to just 00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:29.950 run through South Vietnam and encircle Saigon 00:14:29.950 --> 00:14:32.789 the way he did. And I think it was a shock to 00:14:32.789 --> 00:14:34.570 everybody. It was certainly a shock to President 00:14:34.570 --> 00:14:37.210 Ford and to Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, 00:14:37.529 --> 00:14:40.450 and to Ambassador Graham Martin. And as I said, 00:14:40.509 --> 00:14:43.470 I keep coming back to this, but the more that 00:14:43.470 --> 00:14:45.629 we speak about this, the more you just remind 00:14:45.629 --> 00:14:47.990 me that it was the MSGs, the Marine Security 00:14:47.990 --> 00:14:49.409 Guards. They were pretty much the only people 00:14:49.409 --> 00:14:51.789 that kept their heads. Well, and that was Major 00:14:51.789 --> 00:14:54.210 Keene, correct? That was Major Keene, correct. 00:14:54.350 --> 00:14:56.470 I'm sure Steve Shuler could speak to Major Keene 00:14:56.470 --> 00:14:59.070 much better than Tom Orion. We're going to get 00:14:59.070 --> 00:15:01.350 to him, too. I'm trying to set this picture because 00:15:01.350 --> 00:15:02.929 there were a number of different stories going 00:15:02.929 --> 00:15:05.769 on at the same time. You had the airport up at 00:15:05.769 --> 00:15:08.669 Benoit -Tonsonut that was rocketed, so therefore 00:15:08.669 --> 00:15:12.049 it was useless, and Operation Frequent Wind ended 00:15:12.049 --> 00:15:13.610 up with the helicopters, which was something 00:15:13.610 --> 00:15:20.070 like Plan E. Yeah, Option 4. And they decided 00:15:20.070 --> 00:15:21.370 that they were going to take these people out 00:15:21.370 --> 00:15:23.269 by helicopter, and there just weren't enough 00:15:23.269 --> 00:15:25.929 of them, and there wasn't enough time. You're 00:15:25.929 --> 00:15:29.210 exactly right. You're exactly right. It was just 00:15:29.210 --> 00:15:32.429 mass confusion. And when the Marines came in, 00:15:32.649 --> 00:15:34.429 a contingent, a company of Marines came in from 00:15:34.429 --> 00:15:36.750 the 7th Fleet and landed at, we should mention 00:15:36.750 --> 00:15:39.629 that the DAO stands for Defense Attaché's Office, 00:15:39.669 --> 00:15:43.210 and that was kind of a U .S. It was an extension. 00:15:43.250 --> 00:15:44.870 It was about six miles away from the embassy, 00:15:44.950 --> 00:15:46.690 but it was almost an extension of the embassy. 00:15:47.529 --> 00:15:49.330 And that's where the Marines from the fleet flew 00:15:49.330 --> 00:15:52.409 into. And there were simultaneous evacuations 00:15:52.409 --> 00:15:56.259 going on, both from the airport. The DAO was 00:15:56.259 --> 00:15:58.840 attached to the airport and the embassy. And 00:15:58.840 --> 00:16:00.600 finally, by about four o 'clock in the afternoon, 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:03.379 they cleared out everyone from the DAO and that 00:16:03.379 --> 00:16:07.259 left the embassy as kind of the Alamo of Saigon. 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:08.759 Well, we're going to get to that in just a minute. 00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:11.320 We're talking with the authors of Last Man Out, 00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:14.220 Bob Drury, Tom Clavin, and Steve Shuler, who 00:16:14.220 --> 00:16:17.259 was there. And this is a book that, for Vietnam 00:16:17.259 --> 00:16:18.960 veterans especially and for history buffs, this 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:20.980 is something you need to read because it's going 00:16:20.980 --> 00:16:23.440 to open up, it's going to come up with more questions. 00:16:24.319 --> 00:16:26.259 that you just never knew about. If you want to 00:16:26.259 --> 00:16:28.179 get in on this conversation on Veterans Radio, 00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:32.720 give us a call here at 877 -573 -7825. That's 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:37.360 877 -573 -7825. I wanted to talk just briefly 00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:39.559 about what was going on south of Saigon at the 00:16:39.559 --> 00:16:41.019 same time, because I thought this was a really 00:16:41.019 --> 00:16:44.480 interesting story down in Canto, which was in 00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:46.399 IV Corps for civilians and for people that were 00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:54.000 in there, with the aptly named McNamara. Tom, 00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:58.840 tell me about McNamara and Hasty too. Well, McNamara 00:16:58.840 --> 00:17:01.080 is kind of a little bit of a, maybe you could 00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:04.240 say a larger than life character. He was, I believe 00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:06.660 at the time he was in his late 40s. He was a 00:17:06.660 --> 00:17:09.799 veteran diplomat. He had had postings at places 00:17:09.799 --> 00:17:15.279 all around the world. He knew his business, but 00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:20.029 he was also kind of a ball vivant. He, I think 00:17:20.029 --> 00:17:22.890 when Sergeant Hastie first encountered him, he 00:17:22.890 --> 00:17:25.210 had a drink in one hand and a lady friend in 00:17:25.210 --> 00:17:29.690 the other. He was somebody who enjoyed things, 00:17:29.710 --> 00:17:32.509 but he also was a very serious, very smart guy. 00:17:33.329 --> 00:17:39.369 He knew that he couldn't depend on the plans 00:17:39.369 --> 00:17:41.690 that were already in place in case the North 00:17:41.690 --> 00:17:44.230 Vietnamese suddenly rushed towards Canto and 00:17:44.230 --> 00:17:48.690 Saigon. So he sort of had this ad hoc little 00:17:48.690 --> 00:17:52.589 flotilla at the ready. Sergeant Hastie was his. 00:17:52.910 --> 00:17:54.309 They called him sort of like a John Wayne. He 00:17:54.309 --> 00:17:58.930 was only 24 years old at the time, but somewhat 00:17:58.930 --> 00:18:01.849 inexperienced Marine. He later on in his career 00:18:01.849 --> 00:18:03.690 got a lot of experience all around the world. 00:18:04.849 --> 00:18:08.130 But they together put this little flotilla together 00:18:08.130 --> 00:18:10.609 and put the several hundred Vietnamese civilians 00:18:10.609 --> 00:18:13.150 on there, and they started down the river. And 00:18:13.150 --> 00:18:15.289 because they were supposed to have helicopters 00:18:15.289 --> 00:18:17.769 that were going to take them out of there, but 00:18:17.769 --> 00:18:22.250 when they found out that the CIA took them, they 00:18:22.250 --> 00:18:24.450 were left kind of stranded. And they started 00:18:24.450 --> 00:18:26.690 down the river and had quite the adventure to 00:18:26.690 --> 00:18:29.150 reach the open sea, which included being stopped 00:18:29.150 --> 00:18:32.970 by Vietnamese, being fired upon, going through 00:18:32.970 --> 00:18:36.930 a gauntlet of fire. And that's, again, a story 00:18:36.930 --> 00:18:39.329 that a lot of people wouldn't know about the 00:18:39.329 --> 00:18:41.670 last couple of days in Saigon, that this little 00:18:42.500 --> 00:18:45.740 impromptu fleet saved several hundred Vietnamese 00:18:45.740 --> 00:18:49.519 lives, including to a contingent of Marines and 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:53.640 the Council there, McNamara. And I'm very happy 00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:57.259 to say that Council McNamara is alive and well, 00:18:57.279 --> 00:18:59.759 lives in the Washington D .C. area. Well, it's 00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:01.859 a fascinating story. And again, I encourage our 00:19:01.859 --> 00:19:03.519 listeners to go out and get this book. It's called 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:06.279 Last Man Out. There are so many different subplots 00:19:06.279 --> 00:19:08.880 going on inside of it. I think you'll find it 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:12.339 just absolutely riveting. to me about McNamara 00:19:12.339 --> 00:19:15.440 and Hasty going down the river being shot at 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:20.160 by the friendlies and the bad guys. I mean, you 00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:22.039 could certainly understand the Vietnamese being 00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:23.599 a little upset. Hey, you guys said you were going 00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:26.339 to take us out and now you're not. And pirates 00:19:26.339 --> 00:19:28.220 and they encountered pirates also. I remember 00:19:28.220 --> 00:19:30.920 when I first interviewed, uh, uh, it was a Colonel 00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:33.140 Hasty by then he was just back from Afghanistan 00:19:33.140 --> 00:19:35.960 and he said, well, let me see my list of things 00:19:35.960 --> 00:19:38.079 to worry about as we were floating down. It was 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:40.829 about a 70 mile run, a four hour run. It turned 00:19:40.829 --> 00:19:43.930 out to last much longer, as you've read the book, 00:19:43.930 --> 00:19:46.130 you know this. And he said, I was worried about, 00:19:46.130 --> 00:19:49.190 I guess, the North Vietnamese, the Viet Cong, 00:19:49.710 --> 00:19:52.289 the South Vietnamese turning on us, currents, 00:19:52.730 --> 00:19:55.569 pirates, weather, and shoals, in that order, 00:19:55.809 --> 00:19:58.950 and we hit every one of them. And then they popped 00:19:58.950 --> 00:20:00.890 out into the South China Sea with the promise 00:20:00.890 --> 00:20:02.490 that a ship would be there to pick them up, and 00:20:02.490 --> 00:20:06.589 it wasn't there. It wasn't there, yeah. What 00:20:06.589 --> 00:20:09.539 an adventure. Terry McNamara's pirate fleet. 00:20:09.779 --> 00:20:11.259 Terry and the Pirates. That's what we called 00:20:11.259 --> 00:20:15.240 it. Absolutely. I just wanted to mention that 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:18.660 story to him. And as you mentioned, I believe 00:20:18.660 --> 00:20:21.839 it was Sergeant Hastey at the time. And we have 00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:24.779 a picture up on the webcast of him shooting at 00:20:24.779 --> 00:20:28.039 somebody with an M60 machine gun. Well, they 00:20:28.039 --> 00:20:30.339 had just been stopped by the South Vietnamese 00:20:30.339 --> 00:20:32.339 who boarded. They didn't know what was going 00:20:32.339 --> 00:20:35.759 on. And the South Vietnamese... allegedly were 00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:38.160 looking for draft -age Vietnamese that they weren't 00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:40.839 going to let escape. But in truth, they were 00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:44.059 very, very angry at any American who was leaving 00:20:44.059 --> 00:20:46.660 the country after the promises we had made. And 00:20:46.660 --> 00:20:50.039 what happened was Terry McNamara, the consul 00:20:50.039 --> 00:20:52.839 at Canto, had the foresight. He demanded that 00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:55.420 the patrol boat captain, he demanded that he 00:20:55.420 --> 00:20:57.460 speak to his superior. So they were hauled up 00:20:57.460 --> 00:20:59.180 for like two hours in the middle of the river. 00:20:59.500 --> 00:21:01.440 Finally, the superior, the Commodore, got there. 00:21:01.660 --> 00:21:03.720 And Terry McNamara threw his arm around him and 00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:06.480 said, ah, remember three weeks ago when I got 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:08.640 your wife and your children and your entire family 00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:11.259 out of South Vietnam and over to Guam. And the 00:21:11.259 --> 00:21:12.900 Commodore, the South Vietnamese Commodore just 00:21:12.900 --> 00:21:15.359 kind of sheepishly smiled and said, yes, sir, 00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:16.960 I remember that very well. You're free to go 00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:21.140 on your way. It's not, you know, right. That's 00:21:21.140 --> 00:21:24.440 always who you know. Exactly. Exactly. We expected, 00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:27.339 you know, as Hastie said. The way that Hasey 00:21:27.339 --> 00:21:29.220 had his hand, he had his safety off, he had his 00:21:29.220 --> 00:21:31.940 M -16 in a burlap bag, and he was ready to start. 00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:34.539 There were six other Marines, six other Marine 00:21:34.539 --> 00:21:36.680 security guards from Canto on this little flotilla, 00:21:36.759 --> 00:21:39.279 this little pirate fleet. And he had his M -16 00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:42.099 in a burlap bag, and he was, you know, are we 00:21:42.099 --> 00:21:44.420 going to shoot it out here with our ostensible 00:21:44.420 --> 00:21:46.720 allies, our former allies? And the next thing 00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:49.019 you know, he sees Terry McNamara with his arm 00:21:49.019 --> 00:21:51.400 around the Commodore shoulder chatting, and he 00:21:51.400 --> 00:21:52.839 said, I was waiting for somebody to break out 00:21:52.839 --> 00:21:57.000 champagne flutes. Well, we always look at the 00:21:57.000 --> 00:21:59.220 humor in these events, especially when we survive 00:21:59.220 --> 00:22:04.180 them. It's much better that way. Let's go back 00:22:04.180 --> 00:22:07.859 into Saigon. Tom, I'm going to bring you on and 00:22:07.859 --> 00:22:11.079 talk about the idea of what was going on around 00:22:11.079 --> 00:22:13.759 the embassy at the time. At the end of April, 00:22:14.900 --> 00:22:17.819 there are no airline flights going out any longer. 00:22:17.859 --> 00:22:20.359 It's all done by helicopter. What is the embassy 00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:24.059 like? Well, what the big challenge the Marines 00:22:24.059 --> 00:22:26.099 and Jury Guards faced was to try and maintain 00:22:26.099 --> 00:22:32.579 order in the midst of surrounding chaos. The 00:22:32.579 --> 00:22:35.200 embassy had sent out, there were Marines and 00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:37.339 other personnel manning these buses going out 00:22:37.339 --> 00:22:40.480 into the city to try and pick up American personnel 00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:45.900 and press reporters. The Vietnamese who were 00:22:45.900 --> 00:22:48.880 told they were going to be able to be transported 00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:51.700 out of the city, out of the American Embassy 00:22:51.700 --> 00:22:54.200 compound. And so there were these buses trying 00:22:54.200 --> 00:22:55.640 to get through these streets that would choke 00:22:55.640 --> 00:22:59.640 with people. You had Vietnamese soldiers who 00:22:59.640 --> 00:23:02.299 were very scared because they knew that everything 00:23:02.299 --> 00:23:05.779 was over and they were just firing randomly into 00:23:05.779 --> 00:23:09.859 the air. They were stealing clothing and taking 00:23:09.859 --> 00:23:11.640 off their uniforms off and putting on civilian 00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:14.059 clothes, hoping that They would go undetected 00:23:14.059 --> 00:23:16.279 when the North Vietnamese came in. There were 00:23:16.279 --> 00:23:19.880 just traffic jams. There were a lot of people 00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:21.819 just wandering around, not knowing what was going 00:23:21.819 --> 00:23:25.880 to happen. As it turned out, when the North Vietnamese 00:23:25.880 --> 00:23:28.220 troops entered the city, there were not these 00:23:28.220 --> 00:23:31.359 mass slaughters, but people feared that that's 00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:34.380 what was going to happen, that literally thousands 00:23:34.380 --> 00:23:36.079 of civilians were just going to be put up against 00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:41.920 walls and shot. And so the American embassy was... 00:23:42.500 --> 00:23:44.400 It's supposed to be kind of like the eye of the 00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:48.779 hurricane. As time went on, there were thousands 00:23:48.779 --> 00:23:51.319 of people who gathered around the embassy, pressing 00:23:51.319 --> 00:23:53.819 against the gates. They could see the helicopters 00:23:53.819 --> 00:23:55.880 coming in and landing, picking people up and 00:23:55.880 --> 00:23:58.480 taking them off. And there was all these hopes 00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:02.839 that they would be part of that evacuation. And 00:24:02.839 --> 00:24:04.940 as time went on, they realized their hopes started 00:24:04.940 --> 00:24:07.930 to diminish. They were replaced by anger. The 00:24:07.930 --> 00:24:10.950 marine security guards had to be worried about 00:24:10.950 --> 00:24:14.710 at what point might there be some kind of coordinated 00:24:14.710 --> 00:24:16.950 effort to just break through into the compound 00:24:16.950 --> 00:24:18.769 and once that was done, the evacuation would 00:24:18.769 --> 00:24:23.549 come to a close. So every minute was tense because 00:24:23.549 --> 00:24:24.950 you really didn't know what might happen the 00:24:24.950 --> 00:24:28.049 very next minute. And at one point there was, 00:24:28.109 --> 00:24:30.589 you know, Bob mentioned before about Sergeant 00:24:30.589 --> 00:24:33.970 Shuler having a bayonet wound and he could, you 00:24:33.970 --> 00:24:36.130 know, I'm sure remember that very clearly what 00:24:36.130 --> 00:24:40.009 happened. They were trying to get somebody into 00:24:40.009 --> 00:24:42.910 the compound and the gates opened a little bit 00:24:42.910 --> 00:24:45.970 and some people poured through. That was a real 00:24:45.970 --> 00:24:48.690 shaky moment because they were able to get the 00:24:48.690 --> 00:24:51.990 gates closed again, if not, and the Sea of Humanity 00:24:51.990 --> 00:24:54.029 could have poured into the embassy and that would 00:24:54.029 --> 00:24:56.450 have put everything to a stop. There were also 00:24:56.450 --> 00:24:59.309 heartbreaking moments, Mr. Thromer. I just thought 00:24:59.309 --> 00:25:01.190 I'd throw that in. I remember the MSG's telling 00:25:01.190 --> 00:25:06.250 us about elderly soldiers coming up. showing 00:25:06.250 --> 00:25:09.950 old yellowed letters saying, Mr. Na served the 00:25:09.950 --> 00:25:11.690 Republic of Vietnam and the United States of 00:25:11.690 --> 00:25:13.349 America very well, but he didn't have the right 00:25:13.349 --> 00:25:16.569 papers to give to the embassy. John Gillane told 00:25:16.569 --> 00:25:21.490 us about, he was lifting people over the gate 00:25:21.490 --> 00:25:24.650 and men were coming up to him and showing him 00:25:24.650 --> 00:25:27.869 bags full of jewels and bags full of gold Krugerons, 00:25:27.910 --> 00:25:31.750 get me in, please get me in. And all the MSGs 00:25:31.750 --> 00:25:35.920 that we spoke to just felt so horrible. about 00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:37.819 playing God, that they felt they were playing 00:25:37.819 --> 00:25:40.160 God. You can come, you can't. You can come, you 00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:42.039 can't. You have the right papers, you don't. 00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:44.539 And it was just a horrible, horrible decision 00:25:44.539 --> 00:25:47.799 that they had to make. There were so many decisions 00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:49.380 in reading in the book, and we're talking with 00:25:49.380 --> 00:25:53.380 the authors of Last Man Out and Sergeant Steve 00:25:53.380 --> 00:25:55.299 Shuler, who was there. We're going to talk with 00:25:55.299 --> 00:25:57.779 Steve after we take our next break. I want to 00:25:57.779 --> 00:26:00.599 talk about some of the incidents, including your 00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:02.779 meeting with that bayonet through the fence. 00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:06.059 If you want to get in on the conversation, give 00:26:06.059 --> 00:26:10.720 us a call here at 877 -573 -7825. We're talking 00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:13.880 about the last days in Saigon, the last helicopters 00:26:13.880 --> 00:26:16.460 off the top of the embassy, and I can say that 00:26:16.460 --> 00:26:19.579 I landed on that embassy myself when I was there, 00:26:19.579 --> 00:26:22.180 and it's not a very big landing pad. Where did 00:26:22.180 --> 00:26:24.660 you fly, Dale? What kind of bird did you fly? 00:26:25.579 --> 00:26:27.579 And we'll be right back after this message you're 00:26:27.579 --> 00:26:29.880 listening to Veterans Radio. I love listening 00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:31.799 to that old music. We're talking with the authors 00:26:31.799 --> 00:26:33.980 of Last Men Out, the true story of America's 00:26:33.980 --> 00:26:36.380 heroic final hours in Vietnam. We're talking 00:26:36.380 --> 00:26:39.140 with Bob Drury and Tom Clavin and also Sergeant 00:26:39.140 --> 00:26:41.759 Steve Shuler. And I want to bring Steve onto 00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:45.779 the program. Steve, they alluded to what happened 00:26:45.779 --> 00:26:47.579 to you when you let somebody in. Can you tell 00:26:47.579 --> 00:26:53.859 me what your memory of that is? Yeah, about 20 00:26:53.859 --> 00:26:56.369 minutes before that. about this came up to me. 00:26:56.470 --> 00:27:00.069 I was up on a roof burning and you were burning 00:27:00.069 --> 00:27:04.210 documents. They were trying to burn every document 00:27:04.210 --> 00:27:06.950 that they could find at that point, correct? 00:27:07.710 --> 00:27:11.230 Correct. That had been a two -week project. We 00:27:11.230 --> 00:27:13.390 had started two or three weeks before all of 00:27:13.390 --> 00:27:16.990 this. There was just tons of classified information 00:27:16.990 --> 00:27:19.349 that had to be shredded and burned. Including 00:27:19.349 --> 00:27:22.450 money? Including at one point, yeah, including 00:27:22.450 --> 00:27:25.430 a few million dollars that came up with They 00:27:25.430 --> 00:27:28.369 had it destroyed. They couldn't get out. So, 00:27:28.369 --> 00:27:30.130 all right. So, you've been doing that for two 00:27:30.130 --> 00:27:31.869 weeks. Now you're coming off the roof and you're 00:27:31.869 --> 00:27:34.650 down by the fence. What happened? Everybody got 00:27:34.650 --> 00:27:37.130 rotated up and did a tour up on a burn detail. 00:27:37.910 --> 00:27:39.869 So, Todd Valdez came by and tapped a few guys 00:27:39.869 --> 00:27:41.970 on the shoulders and told us to go down by the 00:27:41.970 --> 00:27:47.069 CRA gate, which where at the time the crowd was 00:27:47.069 --> 00:27:50.670 building and building and there were a lot of 00:27:50.670 --> 00:27:54.589 Americans, mostly secretaries or employees of 00:27:54.539 --> 00:27:57.079 the different government agencies that were trying 00:27:57.079 --> 00:27:59.779 to get through the crowd and you could see that 00:27:59.779 --> 00:28:02.500 you passed an American passport so they were 00:28:02.500 --> 00:28:04.680 trying to pluck them out of the crowd to get 00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:08.319 into the compound and at one point they had to 00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:11.960 open the gate there were several of them and 00:28:11.960 --> 00:28:13.900 the Marines just came out and pushed out and 00:28:13.900 --> 00:28:16.640 made like a V formation like in another typical 00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:21.019 riot formation and they got the people in and 00:28:21.019 --> 00:28:24.329 as they were closing it up coming back in Out 00:28:24.329 --> 00:28:27.289 of the corner of my eye I saw this motion and 00:28:27.289 --> 00:28:30.049 to the right of me was Sergeant Bennington. Apparently 00:28:30.049 --> 00:28:34.630 there was some Arvin that was just grunted and 00:28:34.630 --> 00:28:37.109 discharged through the crowd with a bayonet on 00:28:37.109 --> 00:28:40.549 his rifle and at the very last second I saw him 00:28:40.549 --> 00:28:42.549 out of the corner of my eye but Sergeant Bennington 00:28:42.549 --> 00:28:47.009 saw him before I did and hit him with his rifle 00:28:47.009 --> 00:28:50.079 and he got me about, you know, he just... The 00:28:50.079 --> 00:28:52.299 tip of his bayonet just barely penetrated me, 00:28:52.299 --> 00:28:55.960 but he got me and the guy went flying back and 00:28:55.960 --> 00:28:58.019 they just pulled the formation back in and closed 00:28:58.019 --> 00:29:01.680 the gate back up. And I think that was the last 00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:03.359 time that we were authorized to actually open 00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:06.000 the gate. And then the Marines started standing 00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:09.759 on the Marine's shoulders trying to lean over 00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:12.660 the top of the gate to pull people up through 00:29:12.660 --> 00:29:14.880 it. There were a lot of examples in the book. 00:29:15.259 --> 00:29:18.559 You guys do a great job of... telling us what 00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:20.660 was happening at the time, but they were passing 00:29:20.660 --> 00:29:23.880 people over, they were throwing kids over. They 00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:28.619 were throwing babies over. It was desperation 00:29:28.619 --> 00:29:31.940 on everyone's behalf. There was just total chaos. 00:29:32.140 --> 00:29:35.539 I can't even imagine how chaotic that must have 00:29:35.539 --> 00:29:37.220 been. I'm sure that's something that you live 00:29:37.220 --> 00:29:41.380 with every single day, I would think. Can any 00:29:41.380 --> 00:29:43.720 of you jump in here? I just want to talk briefly 00:29:43.720 --> 00:29:46.549 and make sure that we talk about Corporal Charles 00:29:46.549 --> 00:29:49.809 McMahon and Corporal Judge that were up at the 00:29:49.809 --> 00:29:52.690 DAL, we'd like to talk about them for a second. 00:29:54.109 --> 00:30:00.769 Well, they were two very young men who were somewhat 00:30:00.769 --> 00:30:06.549 inexperienced. When they got to the Saigon, Sergeant 00:30:06.549 --> 00:30:10.569 Juan Valdez, who's a major character in the book, 00:30:11.559 --> 00:30:15.200 He sent them out to the airport thinking that, 00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:17.559 well, you know, maybe that's a safer place for 00:30:17.559 --> 00:30:19.400 them. He said, I didn't want to take a chance 00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:22.960 of putting them in a harm's way. And they, but 00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:25.619 unfortunately what happened is on the morning 00:30:25.619 --> 00:30:30.359 of April 29th, the North Vietnamese began to 00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:34.720 do some shelling of the airport. Excuse me, what 00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:39.410 happened was that one of their shells Hit the 00:30:39.410 --> 00:30:41.650 the guardhouse over the where they were stationed 00:30:41.650 --> 00:30:44.569 and they were both They were both killed instantly. 00:30:44.789 --> 00:30:49.049 So and as it turned out They were the last two 00:30:49.049 --> 00:30:52.910 American troops killed in Vietnam There was actually 00:30:52.910 --> 00:30:55.990 a couple of subsequent deaths later later that 00:30:55.990 --> 00:30:58.150 that night because there was a helicopter that 00:30:58.150 --> 00:31:01.009 went down that was part of the evacuation operation 00:31:01.009 --> 00:31:05.210 that killed a couple of guys, but but That was, 00:31:06.009 --> 00:31:09.710 to this day, and Sergeant Schuler could certainly 00:31:09.710 --> 00:31:14.210 speak to this, but I went to a year ago, there 00:31:14.210 --> 00:31:18.829 was a 35th anniversary reunion of the MSGs at 00:31:18.829 --> 00:31:23.369 Quantico, and what the number of them were talking 00:31:23.369 --> 00:31:26.289 about is the remorse they still feel to this 00:31:26.289 --> 00:31:28.349 day about the deaths of those two young men. 00:31:29.180 --> 00:31:32.839 especially since they were sort of newbies. It 00:31:32.839 --> 00:31:35.160 wasn't like they were griddle veterans and the 00:31:35.160 --> 00:31:37.420 effort was made to try and protect them a bit 00:31:37.420 --> 00:31:40.200 and not put them in harm's way. Just a great 00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:42.640 misfortune that that particular North Vietnamese 00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:44.599 shell at that particular spot at that particular 00:31:44.599 --> 00:31:48.619 time. That was the irony of irony. At one point 00:31:48.619 --> 00:31:50.559 the ambassador, Ambassador Martin, ordered Top 00:31:50.559 --> 00:31:54.059 Valdez and Major Keen to split their MSG deployment. 00:31:56.150 --> 00:32:00.930 a couple dozen 16, 18 MSGs out at the DAO to 00:32:00.930 --> 00:32:03.630 stand security. And neither Keene nor Valdez 00:32:03.630 --> 00:32:05.250 thought that this was a good idea. They both 00:32:05.250 --> 00:32:06.789 knew what was coming down the road. And they 00:32:06.789 --> 00:32:09.349 said, as soon as we split our, as soon as we 00:32:09.349 --> 00:32:10.750 split this unit up, we're never gonna see those 00:32:10.750 --> 00:32:12.210 guys again, meaning that they would have to get 00:32:12.210 --> 00:32:14.690 out on their own. But since it was an order from 00:32:14.690 --> 00:32:16.549 the State Department and the MSGs took their 00:32:16.549 --> 00:32:18.589 orders from the State Department, unlike any 00:32:18.589 --> 00:32:22.069 other unit in the Marine Corps, they were under 00:32:22.069 --> 00:32:25.309 the aegis of the civilians. He said, okay, well 00:32:25.309 --> 00:32:27.970 listen, I'm going to send my most inexperienced 00:32:27.970 --> 00:32:31.309 hands down to the airport. Because if the North 00:32:31.309 --> 00:32:32.910 Vietnamese really want us out of this country, 00:32:33.309 --> 00:32:34.710 there's no way they're going to shell the airport. 00:32:35.950 --> 00:32:37.769 And Charles McMahon, in particular, had only 00:32:37.769 --> 00:32:40.589 been in country for one week. And Darwin Judge 00:32:40.589 --> 00:32:43.569 had been in country for several weeks. And they 00:32:43.569 --> 00:32:44.829 said, well, get rid of these guys. Send them 00:32:44.829 --> 00:32:46.529 down the airport. They'll be safer down the airport. 00:32:46.710 --> 00:32:50.150 And the next thing you know, a rocket killed 00:32:50.150 --> 00:32:52.609 them both. Well, I know that there's an association 00:32:52.609 --> 00:32:56.549 for the last survivors of Saigon. One of you 00:32:56.549 --> 00:32:58.390 want to tell our audience what that website might 00:32:58.390 --> 00:33:01.089 be? I found a lot of information on there myself. 00:33:02.009 --> 00:33:04.289 Yeah, I would recommend, this is Tom speaking, 00:33:04.829 --> 00:33:07.710 I would recommend that people go to the fallofsaigon 00:33:07.710 --> 00:33:11.410 .org and spell it just as it sounds, fallofsaigon 00:33:11.410 --> 00:33:14.839 .org and it's a... uh... there's a false i got 00:33:14.839 --> 00:33:17.440 association that that uh... that runs it and 00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:19.400 it's got a lot of information on the aircraft 00:33:19.400 --> 00:33:22.759 photograph it's got uh... it's got actual letters 00:33:22.759 --> 00:33:25.460 that were sent by president ford and and and 00:33:25.460 --> 00:33:27.920 secretary of state kissinger and others uh... 00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:29.640 you could you could be a photograph of major 00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:32.359 key and james keen and uh... and many of the 00:33:32.359 --> 00:33:34.599 many of the other msg's uh... who was who were 00:33:34.599 --> 00:33:36.880 there in saigon uh... that and will put in the 00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:39.779 last helicopters to leave it at that And it also 00:33:39.779 --> 00:33:42.920 has a scholarship fund for both the McMahon and 00:33:42.920 --> 00:33:45.200 Judge that the Fall of Saigon Association runs. 00:33:45.420 --> 00:33:46.779 And so I think that'd be good if people found 00:33:46.779 --> 00:33:47.539 out more about that. Well, they can do that. 00:33:47.619 --> 00:33:49.700 Go to thefallofsaigon .org and we'll try to get 00:33:49.700 --> 00:33:51.660 that up on our website. I want to go back to 00:33:51.660 --> 00:33:55.059 Steve right now. Steve, tell me about Major Keen. 00:33:55.559 --> 00:33:57.460 Tell me about him. He seems like a fascinating 00:33:57.460 --> 00:34:02.480 man. He was. He was... I definitely would not 00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:07.950 have been in his shoes, but he was... Probably 00:34:07.950 --> 00:34:09.489 one of the best commanding officers you could 00:34:09.489 --> 00:34:14.670 ask for. And he was hard, but he demanded a lot. 00:34:15.010 --> 00:34:16.989 But there was a lot on his shoulders. And he 00:34:16.989 --> 00:34:18.949 told you to do something. You went over and you 00:34:18.949 --> 00:34:20.730 did it. And you kept doing it until he came back 00:34:20.730 --> 00:34:23.489 and told you not to. He was running around the 00:34:23.489 --> 00:34:27.610 whole time in a golf shirt, wasn't he? He was 00:34:27.610 --> 00:34:31.429 actually stationed in Hong Kong. On the Marine 00:34:31.429 --> 00:34:33.789 Security Program, you only see an officer twice 00:34:33.789 --> 00:34:37.559 a year. Oh, all right. They come up for semi 00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:39.659 -annual inspections. You know, they do the PFT, 00:34:40.019 --> 00:34:43.260 all your Marine Corps testing, written tests 00:34:43.260 --> 00:34:45.320 you have to take, the refreshers, and then they 00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:47.659 run you through the evacuation plans at the MSC. 00:34:48.219 --> 00:34:50.599 It's a three -day inspection, and they do it 00:34:50.599 --> 00:34:54.260 twice a year. So when he received his phone call, 00:34:54.539 --> 00:34:56.699 he happened to be in Hong Kong at the time, and 00:34:56.699 --> 00:34:58.719 all he did was just grab a couple items, got 00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:02.300 on a plane, and flew in the Saigon. He was there 00:35:02.300 --> 00:35:07.860 for a while. He had on his back what he wore 00:35:07.860 --> 00:35:12.820 for several weeks. I know that things get rather 00:35:12.820 --> 00:35:16.360 testy and odorific, I guess, could be the term 00:35:16.360 --> 00:35:19.300 that you might want to use with that. You had 00:35:19.300 --> 00:35:22.539 all of these people crammed into the embassy. 00:35:23.800 --> 00:35:27.099 Bob, I'm going to go back to you. The ambassador 00:35:27.099 --> 00:35:30.460 really kind of kept procrastinating. What did 00:35:30.460 --> 00:35:32.719 he hope for? Why did he not get people out sooner? 00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:36.960 He was almost like a Lear character, a King Canute 00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:39.860 raging against the tides. He thought that he 00:35:39.860 --> 00:35:43.039 was the only man that could get the North Vietnamese 00:35:43.039 --> 00:35:46.039 to sit down at the negotiating table and so an 00:35:46.039 --> 00:35:48.840 orderly transition could be made. And he was 00:35:48.840 --> 00:35:51.039 a sick man. He was physically sick. He was walking 00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:54.500 around. I have walking pneumonia. He had injuries 00:35:54.500 --> 00:35:59.199 from an old car, a car collision. He was on medications. 00:35:59.449 --> 00:36:03.090 He just did not look good, and the officers around, 00:36:03.190 --> 00:36:05.590 the military people around him, both in Saigon 00:36:05.590 --> 00:36:08.389 and on the 7th Fleet, eventually started to wonder, 00:36:08.909 --> 00:36:11.190 what is with Ambassador Martin? What's going 00:36:11.190 --> 00:36:14.389 on? What does he think he can accomplish by procrastinating, 00:36:14.429 --> 00:36:17.309 by not calling for this evacuation sooner? I 00:36:17.309 --> 00:36:19.269 mean, the North Vietnamese, they're giving us 00:36:19.269 --> 00:36:20.949 a calling card. They're shelling the airport. 00:36:21.050 --> 00:36:22.550 They're going to start shelling the city any 00:36:22.550 --> 00:36:26.150 moment. What does Martin think he's doing? And 00:36:26.150 --> 00:36:29.070 I would say that he did have good intentions. 00:36:29.239 --> 00:36:32.820 but they were just misplaced. And he was, towards 00:36:32.820 --> 00:36:35.039 the end, I think, a lack of sleep, the medications 00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:37.300 he was on, his injuries, his walking pneumonia. 00:36:37.780 --> 00:36:40.579 It turned him a bit delusional, where he thought 00:36:40.579 --> 00:36:43.780 that if he could just get the right man on the 00:36:43.780 --> 00:36:45.760 phone, or if Kissinger could just buy him some 00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:49.039 more time, or if the new president of South Vietnam, 00:36:49.239 --> 00:36:52.480 Big Min, could be in contact with the Politburo 00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:55.760 in Hanoi, Martin could step in and kind of save 00:36:55.760 --> 00:36:58.389 the day for the South Vietnamese. Now, I want 00:36:58.389 --> 00:37:01.530 to say underlying this delusion that I'm calling 00:37:01.530 --> 00:37:04.949 it was a sense of honor, was a sense that we 00:37:04.949 --> 00:37:07.730 have promised these people that we are their 00:37:07.730 --> 00:37:09.909 allies, that if the North invades, we will back 00:37:09.909 --> 00:37:12.449 them up. And he had that in the back of his mind 00:37:12.449 --> 00:37:17.369 the entire time. So it wasn't quite that he was 00:37:17.369 --> 00:37:20.170 just stark raving mad. It was he was trying to 00:37:20.170 --> 00:37:22.730 act on this honor, but everyone around him knew 00:37:22.730 --> 00:37:24.889 it was just too late to act on that. And we've 00:37:24.889 --> 00:37:29.409 got to get out of here. Well, he was talking 00:37:29.409 --> 00:37:31.570 to Washington. Washington was talking to Thon. 00:37:31.690 --> 00:37:34.469 Kissinger's talking to Ford. President Ford, 00:37:34.530 --> 00:37:36.929 I guess, had made the executive decision that 00:37:36.929 --> 00:37:39.630 we just need to get out of here. Correct. Correct. 00:37:40.690 --> 00:37:43.610 And in fact, it was kind of a ruse. Jerry Berry, 00:37:45.929 --> 00:37:48.809 the 46th pilot, the C -9 that landed on the roof, 00:37:49.369 --> 00:37:51.210 he pretended that he had written orders from 00:37:51.210 --> 00:37:53.269 the President Ford that Ambassador Martin must 00:37:53.269 --> 00:37:55.519 depart. And he wouldn't leave the roof. He wouldn't 00:37:55.519 --> 00:37:57.199 fly off the roof of his helicopter until he had 00:37:57.199 --> 00:37:59.539 Martin aboard. And of course, he did not have 00:37:59.539 --> 00:38:02.000 written orders. He just kind of had jotted something 00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:04.920 down on a piece of paper. But at that point, 00:38:05.059 --> 00:38:08.860 it was just so, as Steve says, it was just so 00:38:08.860 --> 00:38:12.599 chaotic that anything went and Jerry Berry was 00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:14.500 ordered to get the ambassador out of there and 00:38:14.500 --> 00:38:16.420 by hook or by crook. And he got him out by hook. 00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:18.400 That's true. We're coming up on another break 00:38:18.400 --> 00:38:19.719 and we'll be right back. We're going to finish 00:38:19.719 --> 00:38:22.119 this up. We're talking with the authors of Last 00:38:22.119 --> 00:38:25.059 Men Out. the story of the last day in Saigon. 00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:26.840 You're listening to Veterans Radio. We'll be 00:38:26.840 --> 00:38:28.719 right back. I don't know what you want to call 00:38:28.719 --> 00:38:30.619 it. Anthem, I guess you could say of the Vietnam 00:38:30.619 --> 00:38:32.980 War. We're talking with the authors of Last Man 00:38:32.980 --> 00:38:36.119 Out, Bob Drury, Tom Glavin, Sergeant Steve Shuler, 00:38:36.179 --> 00:38:39.500 who was there at the time. And we're going to 00:38:39.500 --> 00:38:41.500 kind of finish it up here because this program 00:38:41.500 --> 00:38:44.579 seems to run out of time so quickly. Bob, I'm 00:38:44.579 --> 00:38:46.900 going to go back to you for just a second. So 00:38:46.900 --> 00:38:49.119 let's repaint this picture a little bit about 00:38:49.119 --> 00:38:52.199 the embassy is The last flights are out. The 00:38:52.199 --> 00:38:55.780 ambassador is finally gone. What's next? Well, 00:38:55.880 --> 00:38:58.719 there's a contingent of marine security guards 00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:01.920 and a platoon of marines has landed at the embassy 00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:06.099 once the DAO has been evacuated over by the airport. 00:39:06.159 --> 00:39:08.619 So now you just have the embassy. It's the last 00:39:08.619 --> 00:39:11.739 bastion, a little island of, well, I can't even 00:39:11.739 --> 00:39:13.619 say it was an island of sanity, an island of 00:39:13.619 --> 00:39:16.719 safety in a chaotic city. The city is... There's 00:39:16.719 --> 00:39:18.679 plumes of smoke all over the city. There's looters. 00:39:18.840 --> 00:39:20.559 There's firefights. There's a few Arvin troops, 00:39:20.780 --> 00:39:23.719 South Vietnamese troops still holding out. And 00:39:23.719 --> 00:39:26.880 here we are in this, it was not calm, but it 00:39:26.880 --> 00:39:29.260 was probably the calmest place in Saigon. So 00:39:29.260 --> 00:39:32.440 at one point Major Keane says, all right, there's 00:39:32.440 --> 00:39:35.079 still, there's still evacuees. That was the hardest 00:39:35.079 --> 00:39:37.000 thing for these MSGs. There was still several 00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:39.940 hundred, four or 500 evacuees inside the embassy 00:39:39.940 --> 00:39:42.079 compound, but they have orders from the seventh 00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:45.519 fleet. We're only sending in 16 more helicopters. 00:39:45.780 --> 00:39:48.360 Keane does a quick head count. He realizes that's 00:39:48.360 --> 00:39:50.340 going to take the entire American contingent 00:39:50.340 --> 00:39:53.139 out. So he orders Top Valdez, shut her down. 00:39:53.719 --> 00:39:56.679 So all the Marines, they kind of form a semi 00:39:56.679 --> 00:39:58.679 -circle and they start backing into the Chancery, 00:39:58.679 --> 00:40:00.960 the main building of the embassy. When they get 00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:03.320 there, suddenly a lull comes over the crowd. 00:40:03.719 --> 00:40:05.780 The crowd has just been yelling in chaos and 00:40:05.780 --> 00:40:08.019 suddenly it's silent. And it takes the crowd 00:40:08.019 --> 00:40:09.980 about 10 seconds to realize they're leaving without 00:40:09.980 --> 00:40:12.820 us. This is it. And the Marines... get into the 00:40:12.820 --> 00:40:14.739 embassy. They start running up the stairs. They 00:40:14.739 --> 00:40:17.039 disable the elevators. They run up the stairs. 00:40:17.480 --> 00:40:19.760 They're locking the gates at each stairwell behind 00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:21.980 them. Now they're on the roof. It didn't take 00:40:21.980 --> 00:40:24.000 more than a minute before the gates to the embassy 00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:27.840 compound to come down. The crowd drove a fire 00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:30.260 truck through the front door. Now there's Marines 00:40:30.260 --> 00:40:33.920 on the roof. I'd say there's about 50. One helicopter 00:40:33.920 --> 00:40:36.320 comes in. Actually, there's more than 50. One 00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:38.880 helicopter comes in, takes a contingent. Another 00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:41.420 helicopter comes in. They're shedding their flak 00:40:41.420 --> 00:40:42.920 jackets. They're shedding their helmets. They're 00:40:42.920 --> 00:40:45.139 trying to squeeze in as many as they can. And 00:40:45.139 --> 00:40:48.139 Major Keen realizes, you know what? We're not 00:40:48.139 --> 00:40:49.800 going to get everybody out on these two helicopters, 00:40:49.880 --> 00:40:52.400 the last two helicopters. And so he goes to Top 00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:54.480 Valdez, Master Sergeant Valdez, and he says, 00:40:54.699 --> 00:40:57.219 Top, give me 11 good men I could fight with. 00:40:57.420 --> 00:40:59.340 Or 10 good men, counting Keen. There was 11 left 00:40:59.340 --> 00:41:01.800 on the roof. And Steve Schuler was one of those 00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:05.980 men. And so there's 11 men. Helicopters are gone. 00:41:06.159 --> 00:41:08.989 Total chaos. They hear the... The enemy, the 00:41:08.989 --> 00:41:10.630 North Vietnamese are closing, coming into the 00:41:10.630 --> 00:41:12.230 city. They can hear the tanks. They can see the 00:41:12.230 --> 00:41:14.869 tanks. The crowd around the embassy has broken 00:41:14.869 --> 00:41:16.969 into the embassy and they're clawing their way, 00:41:17.130 --> 00:41:19.730 trying to get to the roof. And there's 11 Marines 00:41:19.730 --> 00:41:21.789 sitting on the roof, wondering, watching the 00:41:21.789 --> 00:41:24.469 sun come up and wondering, did they forget about 00:41:24.469 --> 00:41:26.989 us? Or what's going on? Are they coming back 00:41:26.989 --> 00:41:29.670 for us? And of course, Major Keene and Todd Valdez 00:41:29.670 --> 00:41:31.329 were, yes, they're coming back for us. Of course 00:41:31.329 --> 00:41:33.590 they're coming back for us. But there was doubt 00:41:33.590 --> 00:41:35.989 in everyone's mind, a little bit of doubt. And 00:41:35.989 --> 00:41:39.369 it was a scary situation. And I got to tell you, 00:41:39.570 --> 00:41:40.969 Dale, if any of your readers want to find out 00:41:40.969 --> 00:41:42.150 what happened, why don't you think they have 00:41:42.150 --> 00:41:44.130 to read the book? I think they do have to read 00:41:44.130 --> 00:41:46.429 the book. But Steve, I want to bring you back 00:41:46.429 --> 00:41:51.309 on. You were part of that 11, and you had a little 00:41:51.309 --> 00:41:53.849 ritual that you did up there. I think we can 00:41:53.849 --> 00:41:56.869 share this little story about the passing of 00:41:56.869 --> 00:42:01.309 the bottle. The passing of the bottle. They got 00:42:01.309 --> 00:42:05.539 to a certain point where... you're in God's hand, 00:42:05.559 --> 00:42:09.079 whatever's gonna happen is gonna happen. So, 00:42:09.139 --> 00:42:11.400 Corporal Bauer happened to have, he was the bar 00:42:11.400 --> 00:42:13.880 in CL, he happened to have two bottles of Johnny 00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:17.719 Walker's scotch, one red and one black. So everybody 00:42:17.719 --> 00:42:19.880 sat around with their backs against the walls 00:42:19.880 --> 00:42:24.199 and yeah, corked the bottles and passed them 00:42:24.199 --> 00:42:29.639 around. I think those two bottles got three, 00:42:29.840 --> 00:42:32.039 I think everybody got three or four drinks of 00:42:32.039 --> 00:42:35.420 pulls off of it. That was it. We sat there and 00:42:35.420 --> 00:42:38.340 said, this is it. Well, this was your Alamo moment, 00:42:38.420 --> 00:42:41.480 wasn't it? That was the Alamo moment. Right. 00:42:41.599 --> 00:42:42.880 This is what we're going to do. We're going to 00:42:42.880 --> 00:42:46.400 fight it out if we have to. I've got a question 00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:48.059 coming up real quick from somebody on the air. 00:42:48.079 --> 00:42:50.260 I've got Ed from Wyandotte, Michigan. Ed, welcome 00:42:50.260 --> 00:42:53.300 to Veterans Radio. Thank you. Thanks for taking 00:42:53.300 --> 00:42:56.579 the call. Real quickly, were there other embassies 00:42:56.579 --> 00:42:59.880 that you had to coordinate with, or were there 00:42:59.880 --> 00:43:02.820 other embassies trying to get their people out, 00:43:02.820 --> 00:43:05.920 or was this just entirely a U .S. situation? 00:43:06.940 --> 00:43:13.059 The Brits had evacuated a week earlier. The French 00:43:13.059 --> 00:43:17.079 had cut a separate deal with Hanoi. And I would 00:43:17.079 --> 00:43:19.639 suppose there was a Korean contingent from the 00:43:19.639 --> 00:43:22.039 Korean embassy. And they were, they don't call 00:43:22.039 --> 00:43:24.760 the Koreans the Irish of Asia for no reason. 00:43:24.780 --> 00:43:26.599 They kind of bullied their way into the compound. 00:43:26.980 --> 00:43:28.840 They tried to get to the front of the line and 00:43:28.840 --> 00:43:30.360 tried to get on the first choppers that were 00:43:30.360 --> 00:43:33.099 coming in. Major Keene stopped that. He said 00:43:33.099 --> 00:43:35.860 to them, you're last in, you're last out. They 00:43:35.860 --> 00:43:37.900 eventually all got out. Actually, no, several 00:43:37.900 --> 00:43:39.840 of the Koreans were left behind, but most of 00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:43.139 them got out. And the other embassies had all 00:43:43.139 --> 00:43:45.480 kind of cut their separate piece with the North 00:43:45.480 --> 00:43:47.940 Vietnamese. And anyone who was our ally, such 00:43:47.940 --> 00:43:51.190 as the Brits, they were long gone. Okay. All 00:43:51.190 --> 00:43:53.210 right. Thank you, Ed, for calling. You're welcome. 00:43:54.190 --> 00:43:56.530 All right. So we're up on the roof. What's happening 00:43:56.530 --> 00:44:00.349 is Alamo Mona. Why were there delays in these 00:44:00.349 --> 00:44:02.630 helicopters coming in and out? I want you guys 00:44:02.630 --> 00:44:04.409 to get into a little bit of the bureaucracy of 00:44:04.409 --> 00:44:06.670 that real quickly. We've got a couple of minutes. 00:44:07.369 --> 00:44:09.550 Well, I could answer that for you real quick 00:44:09.550 --> 00:44:13.989 is that when Captain Barry's helicopter left 00:44:13.989 --> 00:44:16.989 with the Ambassador on board, there was a phrase 00:44:16.989 --> 00:44:19.110 he used, you know, the tiger is out, the tiger 00:44:19.110 --> 00:44:22.679 is out. And that was supposed to tell the 7th 00:44:22.679 --> 00:44:24.780 Fleet that the Ambassador was on the helicopter 00:44:24.780 --> 00:44:28.400 and left the Embassy. And that was actually interpreted 00:44:28.400 --> 00:44:31.159 also as meaning that with the Ambassador was 00:44:31.159 --> 00:44:33.519 the last Marine so that there was no one left 00:44:33.519 --> 00:44:37.400 at the Embassy at all. And so there was that 00:44:37.400 --> 00:44:41.079 belief for some time that everybody was out and 00:44:41.079 --> 00:44:44.079 that no one knew that there were still those 00:44:44.079 --> 00:44:47.739 11 Marines on the roof of the Embassy. it took 00:44:47.739 --> 00:44:49.880 a little while for that to dawn on somebody back 00:44:49.880 --> 00:44:51.940 at the flea hey wait a minute you know we still 00:44:51.940 --> 00:44:54.019 got guys they aren't so they have to scramble 00:44:54.019 --> 00:44:57.440 and uh... and uh... send a helicopter are back 00:44:57.440 --> 00:45:00.300 for them and and certainly hope uh... a couple 00:45:00.300 --> 00:45:02.320 of things hope that those eleven marines will 00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:04.679 still there when the uh... helicopter arrived 00:45:04.679 --> 00:45:07.079 and also because it was those that took off so 00:45:07.079 --> 00:45:09.800 suddenly uh... what they found out on uh... while 00:45:09.800 --> 00:45:11.820 helicopters in the area that was really low on 00:45:11.820 --> 00:45:14.940 gas so i think that that It had to get to Saigon 00:45:14.940 --> 00:45:16.820 and back and hope that it had a lot of Marines 00:45:16.820 --> 00:45:20.119 on board on the way back. In the fluidity of 00:45:20.119 --> 00:45:23.119 the situation, Dale, the original plan, you mentioned 00:45:23.119 --> 00:45:26.579 Plan E before, Option 4. Well, Option 1, the 00:45:26.579 --> 00:45:28.480 ambassador was going to be the last man out. 00:45:28.659 --> 00:45:31.199 Okay. And there was a bureaucratic foul -ups 00:45:31.199 --> 00:45:32.980 red tape. Okay, the ambassador's out. Everybody 00:45:32.980 --> 00:45:34.659 else must be out too, right? And it took them, 00:45:34.699 --> 00:45:36.280 as Tom said, it took them a while to realize. 00:45:36.860 --> 00:45:39.619 In fact, I don't know, black humor, I suppose, 00:45:39.699 --> 00:45:41.519 is the best way to describe this. Henry Kissinger 00:45:41.519 --> 00:45:43.340 actually had a press conference in Washington. 00:45:43.719 --> 00:45:46.260 And he told the press, every American who wants 00:45:46.260 --> 00:45:47.739 to be out, because there were some reporters 00:45:47.739 --> 00:45:50.239 who stayed behind, but every American who wants 00:45:50.239 --> 00:45:53.260 to be out of Saigon has been evacuated from Saigon. 00:45:53.579 --> 00:45:56.159 And he walked off the stage and an aide whispered 00:45:56.159 --> 00:45:59.559 into his ear, no, Mr. Secretary, we still have 00:45:59.559 --> 00:46:02.619 Marines on the roof. And he went ballistic. He 00:46:02.619 --> 00:46:04.400 made me look like a fool in front of the press. 00:46:05.780 --> 00:46:09.420 And it was just indicative of the chaos. That's 00:46:09.420 --> 00:46:11.239 true. I've also got somebody on the line here. 00:46:11.260 --> 00:46:13.139 I've got Joel from New Jersey. Joel, welcome 00:46:13.139 --> 00:46:17.960 to Veterans Radio. You got a question? Yes. My 00:46:17.960 --> 00:46:20.920 name is Joel. I'm a disabled Air Force Vietnam 00:46:20.920 --> 00:46:25.440 veteran from Agent Orange. Two interesting points 00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:29.079 is that the current Air Force Chiefs of Staff, 00:46:29.900 --> 00:46:35.400 General Norton Schwartz, flew some of the last 00:46:35.400 --> 00:46:40.239 fixed wing evacuation flights. out of Tonso Nguyen, 00:46:40.320 --> 00:46:42.699 which is interesting. That's quite a career. 00:46:43.360 --> 00:46:48.619 The other interesting thing is CBS News broadcaster 00:46:48.619 --> 00:46:52.340 Betty, actually it's Nguyen she pronounced it, 00:46:52.360 --> 00:46:56.239 Nguyen. Her father and mother, her father was 00:46:56.239 --> 00:47:00.639 a Navy Vietnam veteran who stayed in Vietnam 00:47:00.639 --> 00:47:03.739 and married a Vietnamese woman as a little child. 00:47:04.159 --> 00:47:08.469 Her mother, father and her. made one of the last 00:47:08.469 --> 00:47:12.030 flights out of Saigon on an Air Force transport. 00:47:13.070 --> 00:47:17.389 She used to work for CNN. She worked for CBS 00:47:17.389 --> 00:47:20.250 News. As a matter of fact, she was on this morning. 00:47:21.289 --> 00:47:25.489 It still comes back to the present in the terms 00:47:25.489 --> 00:47:31.369 of a little girl who is now a famous news broadcaster 00:47:31.369 --> 00:47:34.690 and the Chief of Staff of the Air Force, General 00:47:34.690 --> 00:47:38.269 Norton Schwartz. I guess he was piloting one 00:47:38.269 --> 00:47:41.289 of those big C -130s right before they started 00:47:41.289 --> 00:47:43.889 shelling the airport. That was plan B. Plan A, 00:47:43.889 --> 00:47:46.590 plan B, plan C. Plan B was we're going to get 00:47:46.590 --> 00:47:48.530 everybody out of fixed wing. We're going to strip 00:47:48.530 --> 00:47:51.630 down our C -130s and we're going to just have 00:47:51.630 --> 00:47:54.309 an assembly line of C -130s landing. But once 00:47:54.309 --> 00:47:56.469 the North Vietnamese shell Thompson at the airport, 00:47:56.650 --> 00:48:00.070 that plan went out the window. Thank you very 00:48:00.070 --> 00:48:01.730 much. One of the interesting things, I was talking 00:48:01.730 --> 00:48:03.190 to Steve Schuler yesterday. We were having a 00:48:03.190 --> 00:48:06.920 private conversation. He said something like, 00:48:07.019 --> 00:48:10.039 well, it's history now. Even though it's the 00:48:10.039 --> 00:48:12.719 anniversary, it's history. And I guess everybody's 00:48:12.719 --> 00:48:14.599 forgotten it. And I don't think everybody has 00:48:14.599 --> 00:48:17.500 forgotten it. I think this American Dunkirk, 00:48:17.500 --> 00:48:20.079 so to speak, that took place 36 years ago today, 00:48:20.559 --> 00:48:25.659 I think it's relevant even today as to, A, not 00:48:25.659 --> 00:48:27.800 only MSG's we have stationed around the world 00:48:27.800 --> 00:48:31.039 in harm's way and with what's going on in the 00:48:31.039 --> 00:48:34.110 Mideast in North Africa. but also with our planned 00:48:34.110 --> 00:48:35.969 withdrawals from Iraq and Afghanistan. And I 00:48:35.969 --> 00:48:38.190 think there's a parallel. And I certainly hope 00:48:38.190 --> 00:48:39.989 we've learned something. I think so. We've got 00:48:39.989 --> 00:48:41.730 to end it right there, gentlemen. Thank you so 00:48:41.730 --> 00:48:43.929 very much for being on Veterans Radio today. 00:48:44.269 --> 00:48:46.190 Thank you. Make sure you get the book, folks. 00:48:46.630 --> 00:48:49.110 Last Man Out, Bob Drury, Tom Glavin. Thank you 00:48:49.110 --> 00:48:51.269 both very much for being on Veterans Radio. Steve 00:48:51.269 --> 00:48:54.210 Shuler, thank you also. We'll be back next week 00:48:54.210 --> 00:48:56.269 with another fascinating story about American 00:48:56.269 --> 00:48:59.329 veterans. We will not ever let you forget. Until 00:48:59.329 --> 00:49:14.309 then, you are dismissed. Not all views and opinions 00:49:14.309 --> 00:49:16.530 expressed on Veterans Radio reflect the views 00:49:16.530 --> 00:49:19.989 of Veterans Radio or your local station. Veterans 00:49:19.989 --> 00:49:22.489 Radio is the production of Veterans Radio, LLC.