WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.459 This is Veterans Radio. This is Veterans Radio. 00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:09.359 Good day. I'm Jim Fossone. I'm the Officer of 00:00:09.359 --> 00:00:11.560 the Deck today here on Veterans Radio and thanks 00:00:11.560 --> 00:00:14.320 for joining us. We've got some interesting stories 00:00:14.320 --> 00:00:16.500 for you. We always want to remind you, you can 00:00:16.500 --> 00:00:19.600 find more about Veterans Radio at its Facebook 00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:23.280 site or at the web, veteransradio .org, where 00:00:23.280 --> 00:00:26.120 we're on the web 24 -7. You can find a lot of 00:00:26.120 --> 00:00:29.160 our podcasts there as well. We post new ones 00:00:29.160 --> 00:00:33.359 every Tuesday, so you can get a new story, a 00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:36.079 new interview, something you didn't know before 00:00:36.079 --> 00:00:40.320 by going to veteransradio .org. 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We want to welcome to Veterans Radio, a 00:01:26.670 --> 00:01:29.310 Navy veteran who's got an interesting story to 00:01:29.310 --> 00:01:33.150 tell, Richard Sherman. Welcome to Veterans Radio. 00:01:33.769 --> 00:01:35.329 Jim, thanks for having me on board. It's a pleasure 00:01:35.329 --> 00:01:38.150 to be with you. Now, Richard and I met each other 00:01:38.150 --> 00:01:42.730 down in the Estero, Florida area. Today, I'm 00:01:42.730 --> 00:01:45.930 up north again, where it's 45 degrees. And he 00:01:45.930 --> 00:01:48.310 just let me know it's 82 degrees where he's at. 00:01:48.890 --> 00:01:51.349 So he's smarter than the average bearer. That's 00:01:51.349 --> 00:01:53.409 what I want to start with. But we learn from 00:01:53.409 --> 00:01:57.129 experience, Jim. We learn from experience. So 00:01:57.129 --> 00:01:59.709 how did how did you end up in the Navy? Let's 00:01:59.709 --> 00:02:04.349 start there. Sure. You know, I like most. and 00:02:04.349 --> 00:02:06.250 those, most of the families who served, there's 00:02:06.250 --> 00:02:09.030 those who served before you, right? So my dad 00:02:09.030 --> 00:02:11.750 was a Korean War Navy veteran, was a machinist 00:02:11.750 --> 00:02:14.250 mate. His brother was a radio man in World War 00:02:14.250 --> 00:02:17.830 II. He was a bit older than he was. My godfather 00:02:17.830 --> 00:02:20.909 on my mom's side, my uncle on my mom's side was 00:02:20.909 --> 00:02:24.169 aboard the John F. Kennedy, work in the decks 00:02:24.169 --> 00:02:27.870 of the JFK in the Vietnam era. And so, you know, 00:02:27.870 --> 00:02:31.210 the military experience was always part of our 00:02:31.210 --> 00:02:34.229 Thanksgiving and holiday conversations and a 00:02:34.229 --> 00:02:37.530 lot of teasing and the like. So for my dad, the 00:02:37.530 --> 00:02:40.509 Navy was extraordinarily formative for him. He 00:02:40.509 --> 00:02:42.949 was one of those rough and tumble kids growing 00:02:42.949 --> 00:02:45.430 up, living on the streets. His parents during 00:02:45.430 --> 00:02:48.370 the Second World War both worked. And so one 00:02:48.370 --> 00:02:50.229 worked night work, the other worked day work. 00:02:50.250 --> 00:02:52.189 And so he spent a lot of time on the street until 00:02:52.189 --> 00:02:55.030 finally someone said, you better get this straightened 00:02:55.030 --> 00:02:57.770 out. And he joined the Navy. And I mean, to the 00:02:57.770 --> 00:03:01.340 day he died, my dad's drawers were what we call 00:03:01.340 --> 00:03:04.639 two -blocked. I mean, his t -shirts and underwear 00:03:04.639 --> 00:03:08.840 and his socks were folded and perfectly kept. 00:03:09.159 --> 00:03:10.960 And it was really important to my dad. And so 00:03:10.960 --> 00:03:13.939 I saw that as a young boy and as a young man. 00:03:14.419 --> 00:03:17.520 And going to college, two of my roommates were 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:21.580 ROTC, one in the Air Force, one Army ROTC. And 00:03:21.580 --> 00:03:24.060 that led me to my senior year of college, where 00:03:24.060 --> 00:03:26.759 I signed papers to go to officer candidate school 00:03:26.759 --> 00:03:30.509 in the Navy. And that's where we get started. 00:03:31.069 --> 00:03:34.689 Well, it's 1989. You go into the Navy and you 00:03:34.689 --> 00:03:40.229 stay in various capacities until 1997. Most of 00:03:40.229 --> 00:03:43.490 that time as a Navy intelligence officer. That's 00:03:43.490 --> 00:03:46.030 not an oxymoron. Tell us a little bit about that. 00:03:47.110 --> 00:03:49.830 Well, you know, it was a wonderful experience. 00:03:49.930 --> 00:03:53.469 I enjoyed the Navy greatly. Probably would have 00:03:53.469 --> 00:03:57.009 stayed active duty for much, much longer, except 00:03:57.750 --> 00:04:00.770 that uh that shit was not approved by the commander 00:04:00.770 --> 00:04:05.030 in chief my my future wife um so that's just 00:04:05.030 --> 00:04:08.650 a joke but that's how that works yeah yeah well 00:04:08.650 --> 00:04:10.270 her father was a two -star admiral so she spent 00:04:10.270 --> 00:04:13.349 a lot of time um you know in that experience 00:04:13.349 --> 00:04:16.790 and i had uh varied interests as well uh but 00:04:16.790 --> 00:04:20.399 the navy intelligence field i was I mean, it's 00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:23.420 just a wonderful opportunity for me personally. 00:04:23.860 --> 00:04:25.980 I was an international relations and economics 00:04:25.980 --> 00:04:32.759 major in college, always interested in how states 00:04:32.759 --> 00:04:36.279 and nations work, history, the history of war, 00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:38.360 the history of peace, the history of diplomacy. 00:04:39.500 --> 00:04:41.980 And for me, I think the field of intelligence 00:04:41.980 --> 00:04:45.360 is extraordinarily interesting in the sense that 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:48.199 the Navy experience, I can't speak to the Army 00:04:48.199 --> 00:04:50.459 or the Air Force, but we get exposure to all 00:04:50.459 --> 00:04:52.759 the different communities, right, we get the 00:04:52.759 --> 00:04:55.680 surface fleet, we get the subs, we get the aviation, 00:04:55.800 --> 00:04:57.480 I was at the aviation squadron, I was with the 00:04:57.480 --> 00:04:59.839 Marines, I was at the Pentagon, you know, you 00:04:59.839 --> 00:05:03.480 get these special centers of intelligence that 00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:06.740 you get an opportunity. So as a career, you know, 00:05:06.779 --> 00:05:09.779 there was lots more opportunity ahead that seemed 00:05:09.779 --> 00:05:11.720 particularly interesting. And, you know, several 00:05:11.720 --> 00:05:14.139 of my OCS classmates and Intel school classmates 00:05:14.139 --> 00:05:17.680 continued on when I returned to the civilian 00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:19.579 world. But it is exceedingly interesting, right? 00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:22.339 You get spec ops experience, you get surface, 00:05:22.540 --> 00:05:24.980 you get subs, you get... It's really cool because 00:05:24.980 --> 00:05:28.779 you get exposure to the breadth of what the Navy 00:05:28.779 --> 00:05:31.980 does and you also have a perspective on what's 00:05:31.980 --> 00:05:35.480 happening and... You know, I think, you know, 00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:36.839 because of this book, which you're talking about, 00:05:36.839 --> 00:05:39.699 you know, I'm very acutely aware of those particularly 00:05:39.699 --> 00:05:41.500 in World War One and World War Two that had really 00:05:41.500 --> 00:05:44.980 no idea where they fit in into the overall piece 00:05:44.980 --> 00:05:47.720 of the engagement or the battle. Whereas in the 00:05:47.720 --> 00:05:50.379 intelligence field, for me anyway, it was very 00:05:50.379 --> 00:05:53.360 helpful to understand the breadth and the scope 00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:55.519 of what we were trying to accomplish. One of 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:57.980 the things I'm hearing is that it was intellectually 00:05:57.980 --> 00:06:03.300 challenging and and that it was because of that 00:06:03.300 --> 00:06:06.560 scope, you kind of had to be well -rounded. And 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:09.540 you had to be curious. Am I getting some of these 00:06:09.540 --> 00:06:11.620 traits right? Yeah, I think that's right, Jim. 00:06:11.720 --> 00:06:15.899 I think lots of different skill sets goes into 00:06:15.899 --> 00:06:19.379 every MOS, right? I think at the core, if there's 00:06:19.379 --> 00:06:20.759 one thing that's carried with me, and we'll talk 00:06:20.759 --> 00:06:24.300 about my life afterwards, is I'm very analytical. 00:06:24.500 --> 00:06:27.279 You have to analyze information. And I will tell 00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:31.329 the story that As a 22 year old, I'm floating 00:06:31.329 --> 00:06:35.870 in the Persian Gulf and it's desert shield. I 00:06:35.870 --> 00:06:38.629 have my ensign bars on and I'm just trying to 00:06:38.629 --> 00:06:40.850 figure out where the head is and what exactly 00:06:40.850 --> 00:06:43.009 a classic way is. I'm just trying to stay out 00:06:43.009 --> 00:06:48.310 of the way. I had a 04 that gave me some opportunity 00:06:48.310 --> 00:06:50.750 to do briefings and I was called down to the 00:06:50.750 --> 00:06:54.750 stateroom of the SEAL team commander and I walked 00:06:54.750 --> 00:06:59.839 in the room and they're dressing in uh in wetsuits 00:06:59.839 --> 00:07:03.480 and I said sir yes you know uh and you know there's 00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:05.980 knives out there's weapons out uh and this is 00:07:05.980 --> 00:07:08.980 desert shield not desert storm and uh they say 00:07:08.980 --> 00:07:11.600 to me I said I said well you know what's up how 00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:12.920 can I help and they said well we're going swimming 00:07:12.920 --> 00:07:15.920 tonight I said oh okay I said and they asked 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:20.240 me some specific questions and then like this 00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:22.160 the thing you know kind of hit me in my head 00:07:22.160 --> 00:07:25.420 it's it really became real at that very real 00:07:25.420 --> 00:07:28.009 at that stage because it's important to know 00:07:28.009 --> 00:07:31.009 what you know. And it's important to know what 00:07:31.009 --> 00:07:33.129 you don't know what you're opining about what 00:07:33.129 --> 00:07:36.649 your assessment is versus what is fact. And that 00:07:36.649 --> 00:07:39.009 became very apparent to me, because when you 00:07:39.009 --> 00:07:42.629 when you mix opinion with fact, they end up with 00:07:42.629 --> 00:07:44.949 body bags, right? I mean, it was like a dong 00:07:44.949 --> 00:07:46.790 went off in my head, like, you know, wake up. 00:07:46.829 --> 00:07:49.069 And the really interesting thing about it was, 00:07:49.389 --> 00:07:53.069 after we spoke, they wanted to access to the 00:07:53.069 --> 00:07:55.980 information that I had. shared with them so that 00:07:55.980 --> 00:08:00.459 they could read the intelligence reports themselves 00:08:00.459 --> 00:08:02.620 and also make their own conclusions. And that 00:08:02.620 --> 00:08:06.740 level of professionalism very early on in my 00:08:06.740 --> 00:08:10.220 Navy officer career was very formative for me. 00:08:10.639 --> 00:08:12.439 So yeah, I think analytical is very important 00:08:12.439 --> 00:08:16.019 and also being able to understand what you know 00:08:16.019 --> 00:08:18.600 and what you assess or think is going to happen. 00:08:18.699 --> 00:08:20.740 Those are very different things, I think, if 00:08:20.740 --> 00:08:23.959 I may. step aside, you know, in our modern society, 00:08:23.980 --> 00:08:26.519 there's a lot of opinion that we read online 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:29.420 or that we hear on the news or whatever. That's 00:08:29.420 --> 00:08:34.659 purely opinion or assessment of fact. And those 00:08:34.659 --> 00:08:36.179 things are very, very different. And I learned 00:08:36.179 --> 00:08:40.220 that at 22. Well, and there's nothing lower on 00:08:40.220 --> 00:08:44.419 a ship than Ensign, who, as you say, I'm just 00:08:44.419 --> 00:08:45.960 trying to stay out of the way. I just don't want 00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:48.360 to create a problem. So I've been there, done 00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:52.710 that. This is I want to take these traits and 00:08:52.710 --> 00:08:54.750 you add an analytical to it because it's going 00:08:54.750 --> 00:08:58.889 to tie into the book that you, the career that 00:08:58.889 --> 00:09:00.909 you chose and the book that we're going to talk 00:09:00.909 --> 00:09:04.389 about, Never Home. But tell us about that transition. 00:09:04.529 --> 00:09:07.490 Tell us, okay, the commander in chief has said 00:09:07.490 --> 00:09:10.049 you're not re -upping in the Navy no matter what 00:09:10.049 --> 00:09:13.450 my admiral dad says. You better come home and 00:09:13.450 --> 00:09:16.149 do something, Richard. So what does Richard Sherman 00:09:16.149 --> 00:09:20.210 come home and do? whatever she tells me to do. 00:09:20.769 --> 00:09:23.590 So in January I'll celebrate 30 years and so 00:09:23.590 --> 00:09:26.610 far that ability to be obedient and follow orders 00:09:26.610 --> 00:09:30.710 has worked out okay. Still an incident in that 00:09:30.710 --> 00:09:34.870 ranking. And on a performance improvement plan 00:09:34.870 --> 00:09:39.210 for the last 30 years, I'm still doing extra 00:09:39.210 --> 00:09:41.909 military instruction. But no, but on a serious 00:09:41.909 --> 00:09:44.889 note, I was in the intelligence field, and I 00:09:44.889 --> 00:09:47.169 loved that. But I started with an international 00:09:47.169 --> 00:09:49.070 relations economics background. So while I was 00:09:49.070 --> 00:09:51.909 in a reservist at the Pentagon, I got my MBA 00:09:51.909 --> 00:09:54.710 from Georgetown and then worked on Wall Street 00:09:54.710 --> 00:09:58.029 for about 16 years as an analyst. As an analyst, 00:09:58.169 --> 00:10:01.139 right? Analyzing numbers and earnings per share 00:10:01.139 --> 00:10:03.620 and whether management can execute what they 00:10:03.620 --> 00:10:07.580 say they can execute. And so I did that for 15, 00:10:07.659 --> 00:10:11.960 16 years. And during that time, I was working 00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:14.230 a lot of hours, I think. at least once or twice 00:10:14.230 --> 00:10:17.250 I worked 30 consecutive hours. So it was a lot 00:10:17.250 --> 00:10:20.210 of hours and I was getting of a certain age that 00:10:20.210 --> 00:10:22.590 I'm starting to consider other opportunities. 00:10:22.710 --> 00:10:25.610 And my wife had purchased me a one -on -one lesson 00:10:25.610 --> 00:10:27.850 with a photographer. Now I've always been interested 00:10:27.850 --> 00:10:29.750 in photography. It really goes back to the Gulf 00:10:29.750 --> 00:10:32.490 War. When I left for the Gulf War again, you 00:10:32.490 --> 00:10:36.490 know. untouched ensign bars on my followers. 00:10:37.350 --> 00:10:39.450 I went home to see my folks and say goodbye and 00:10:39.450 --> 00:10:41.389 I headed out and I said to my dad, I had a quiet 00:10:41.389 --> 00:10:45.269 moment with him. I said, dad, any advice? And 00:10:45.269 --> 00:10:47.669 he gave me no advice. What he gave me was his 00:10:47.669 --> 00:10:50.809 digital SLR camera that he had done all of our 00:10:50.809 --> 00:10:54.509 family photos with, a Minolta film camera. And 00:10:54.509 --> 00:10:56.830 I took it on board and fortunately, as an officer 00:10:56.830 --> 00:10:59.590 on board a helicopter carrier, I had a little 00:10:59.590 --> 00:11:01.590 bit of space I could stuff it on. And we did 00:11:01.590 --> 00:11:04.470 a missile shoot off the coast of the US, off 00:11:04.470 --> 00:11:08.049 the coast of North Carolina, as part of the preparations 00:11:08.049 --> 00:11:11.259 for heading over into the Far East. or the middle 00:11:11.259 --> 00:11:13.860 east and uh i remember we did a missile shoot 00:11:13.860 --> 00:11:16.000 and i had the camera up and i was leaning on 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:18.440 i wasn't on duty at the time i had my camera 00:11:18.440 --> 00:11:21.259 lined up it's all manual up against a superstructure 00:11:21.259 --> 00:11:23.700 and i have you know fast film in it and i have 00:11:23.700 --> 00:11:26.840 f4 all this other Anyway, making the camera as 00:11:26.840 --> 00:11:28.740 fast as possible and have the shutter pressed 00:11:28.740 --> 00:11:31.159 halfway down just waiting for it to shoot. Because 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:33.840 I figured I'll jump like hell. And it's exactly 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:36.080 what happened. It shot out and jumped like hell. 00:11:36.259 --> 00:11:37.940 Geez, I probably can send this to you, Jim. But 00:11:37.940 --> 00:11:41.159 I have a wonderfully exposed film image when 00:11:41.159 --> 00:11:42.919 I came home eight months later and then waited 00:11:42.919 --> 00:11:47.600 two weeks of a missile leaving a tube about 20 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:49.659 yards, 30 yards out with a beautiful plume of 00:11:49.659 --> 00:11:51.840 smoke perfectly clear. And at that stage, I learned 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:55.799 that what the camera sees can see and can't see 00:11:55.799 --> 00:11:59.059 is very different than what we see with our own 00:11:59.059 --> 00:12:00.879 eyes. And so while I'm working a Wall Street 00:12:00.879 --> 00:12:04.820 job, you know, hours are long, my wife gets me 00:12:04.820 --> 00:12:08.600 as a president, a time with a professional photographer 00:12:08.600 --> 00:12:11.440 to do some lessons. And, you know, he said, sat 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:12.820 down with me, and he said, you know, you could 00:12:12.820 --> 00:12:16.179 do this professionally, if you want it. I'm working 00:12:16.179 --> 00:12:18.179 a Wall Street job, I'm working, that's the last 00:12:18.179 --> 00:12:20.399 thing from my mind. You know, a couple years 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:23.440 later, I'm worn out. Some things have gone well, 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:24.960 some things haven't gone well, and I'm thinking 00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:28.679 to myself, do I really want to do this? And yeah, 00:12:28.679 --> 00:12:31.580 so at that stage made the decision. My wife and 00:12:31.580 --> 00:12:33.639 I don't have children, and she has been a very 00:12:33.639 --> 00:12:36.399 successful career. And she had the health care 00:12:36.399 --> 00:12:38.500 cover for that. And I said, you know, how many 00:12:38.500 --> 00:12:41.600 times would a guy in the mid 40s have an opportunity 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:43.039 to do something that they're really passionate 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:45.899 about? And that was photography. And so I started 00:12:45.899 --> 00:12:48.279 this photography business. I started to study 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:49.820 at the New York Institute of Photography. I studied 00:12:49.820 --> 00:12:53.899 photography and videography. worked with hired 00:12:53.899 --> 00:12:57.320 special photographers who are instructors now 00:12:57.320 --> 00:12:59.980 to look at my work and then work underneath them. 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:01.840 You know give them images and they would give 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:04.360 me feedback to try to accelerate my learning 00:13:04.360 --> 00:13:08.259 curve. And yeah so spent a couple years kind 00:13:08.259 --> 00:13:10.980 of learning photography and getting better at 00:13:10.980 --> 00:13:16.700 the craft. And so Richard is a professional photographer 00:13:16.700 --> 00:13:19.860 now. and that's the journey, how we got there. 00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:22.639 Give folks your website and then I wanna talk 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:26.259 about the book. Okay, I have two websites, one 00:13:26.259 --> 00:13:27.500 for the book, which you can talk about later, 00:13:27.980 --> 00:13:31.700 but it's richardshermanphotography .com. It's 00:13:31.700 --> 00:13:33.899 just very simple, richardshermanphotography .com. 00:13:34.279 --> 00:13:36.659 As a former Navy guy, I do a lot of nautical 00:13:36.659 --> 00:13:40.320 stuff. I do sailing races sometimes in that. 00:13:40.409 --> 00:13:43.769 shooting out on a helicopter. And sometimes I'm 00:13:43.769 --> 00:13:45.809 just on a chase boat. Sometimes I'm just in shore 00:13:45.809 --> 00:13:48.970 shooting a lot of boats in shore, but I do a 00:13:48.970 --> 00:13:51.149 lot of nautical stuff and nature stuff. And one 00:13:51.149 --> 00:13:55.549 of my things that I'm most proud of is there's 00:13:55.549 --> 00:13:58.129 more than three dozen VA medical facilities that 00:13:58.129 --> 00:14:00.429 have purchased my artwork and installed it in 00:14:00.429 --> 00:14:02.830 their facilities. And those of us who have been 00:14:02.830 --> 00:14:05.110 to VA facilities know that a VA is different 00:14:05.110 --> 00:14:08.110 than a hospital because our veterans, particularly 00:14:08.110 --> 00:14:11.419 veterans of a certain age, will spend many hours 00:14:11.419 --> 00:14:15.679 there. They'll go to the barbershop, or they'll 00:14:15.679 --> 00:14:17.600 get a cup of coffee, or they'll go to the little 00:14:17.600 --> 00:14:19.700 candy store, a little store there, they'll pick 00:14:19.700 --> 00:14:22.720 up a t -shirt, and they'll spend some hours telling, 00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:26.100 you know, sea stories with their fellow veterans 00:14:26.100 --> 00:14:29.059 that are there. So to think that maybe my images 00:14:29.059 --> 00:14:30.960 could be a conversation starter for one of them 00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:33.179 means a lot to me. It really does. No, that's 00:14:33.179 --> 00:14:36.299 great. Somewhere along the line, and I've heard 00:14:36.299 --> 00:14:38.720 the story, but I'm gonna let you tell it, you 00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:44.789 thought I'm going to go photograph American cemeteries 00:14:44.789 --> 00:14:49.250 overseas, which resulted in becoming the book 00:14:49.250 --> 00:14:53.210 Never Home, remembering the military heroes who 00:14:53.210 --> 00:14:57.649 never returned, which is not only photographs, 00:14:57.850 --> 00:15:02.169 but stories. Tell us about the journey to get 00:15:02.169 --> 00:15:07.149 that up and out. Sure. Yeah, I, you know, We 00:15:07.149 --> 00:15:08.570 talked about sort of the military background, 00:15:08.730 --> 00:15:11.250 you know, as veterans, we think about those who 00:15:11.250 --> 00:15:15.490 went before us. We never can ever really repay 00:15:15.490 --> 00:15:18.590 them. And from our very first days in boot camp 00:15:18.590 --> 00:15:21.169 or officer candid school, we're aware of the 00:15:21.169 --> 00:15:23.990 sacrifices and their valor. And then even now, 00:15:24.169 --> 00:15:26.409 as we're speaking now, I think for veterans are 00:15:26.409 --> 00:15:28.970 listening now, we're also very mindful that there 00:15:28.970 --> 00:15:32.129 are people on ships at sea in the air or in places 00:15:32.129 --> 00:15:34.809 even more dangerous right now as we're enjoying. 00:15:35.179 --> 00:15:38.460 40 degree rainy day in Detroit or an 82 great 00:15:38.460 --> 00:15:40.720 Sunday day here in Estero, Florida. But we're 00:15:40.720 --> 00:15:43.200 very aware of that. Right. So it was never far 00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:45.820 from my mind, but really kind of coalesced around 00:15:45.820 --> 00:15:48.139 I'm working a financial services job and I go 00:15:48.139 --> 00:15:50.940 to Vancouver, Canada in 2007 and I need a cab 00:15:50.940 --> 00:15:53.960 driver. And I, as you know, Jim, from hearing 00:15:53.960 --> 00:15:55.899 me speak before, I like to talk to cab drivers 00:15:55.899 --> 00:15:59.120 are usually immigrants from somewhere that make 00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:02.029 their way to the West. whether it's the US or 00:16:02.029 --> 00:16:03.929 in this case, Canada. And I started to chat with 00:16:03.929 --> 00:16:06.769 the cab driver turned out it was a very transformative 00:16:06.769 --> 00:16:09.169 conversation because he was a World War II vet 00:16:09.169 --> 00:16:12.690 for the Ukrainian army. So he's a young man at 00:16:12.690 --> 00:16:15.250 the time fighting for the Russian Red Army with, 00:16:15.429 --> 00:16:17.490 you know, against the Nazis in front of him, 00:16:17.870 --> 00:16:20.509 one of them, which was devastating. And then 00:16:20.779 --> 00:16:22.840 you know, it was uncertain whether that was more 00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:25.659 dangerous minute to minute than fighting for 00:16:25.659 --> 00:16:28.860 the Russian Red Army, which were, they were brutalized, 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:31.860 as he explained to me, you know, not every day, 00:16:31.860 --> 00:16:34.080 but certainly there was instances of great brutality 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:39.940 and deprivation that the Russians imposed upon 00:16:39.940 --> 00:16:42.419 their allies, the Ukrainians, we were much more 00:16:42.419 --> 00:16:45.379 aware of that cultural and ethnic difference 00:16:45.379 --> 00:16:49.080 today than we, at least than I was in 2007. And 00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:52.399 so uh speaking with him you know in 20 25 minute 00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:55.100 cab drive between the airport and the hotel he 00:16:55.100 --> 00:16:57.179 shared some of his experiences a young man in 00:16:57.179 --> 00:17:00.720 his teens uh being called into combat and and 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:02.779 his experience and but you know a couple things 00:17:02.779 --> 00:17:05.559 came out of it uh the two probably most meaningful 00:17:05.559 --> 00:17:08.039 stories came out of it it was that you know they 00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:09.980 were suffering a great deal the ukrainian you 00:17:09.980 --> 00:17:14.180 know his friends and mates were were dying regularly 00:17:14.180 --> 00:17:17.960 um and so it was there wasn't much hope for sure 00:17:17.960 --> 00:17:21.809 and then you know, he explained to me that out 00:17:21.809 --> 00:17:24.430 of the blue one day, these young men started 00:17:24.430 --> 00:17:27.470 to appear with short haircuts and wealth trained 00:17:27.470 --> 00:17:30.730 and with, you know, weapons and the like, and 00:17:30.730 --> 00:17:32.990 they started to fight next to them. And they 00:17:32.990 --> 00:17:34.690 were the American troops. Now, there's very, 00:17:34.730 --> 00:17:37.269 very little written about American experience 00:17:37.269 --> 00:17:41.170 in the Eastern Front. very, very little. And 00:17:41.170 --> 00:17:42.869 so I've had an opportunity to meet with somebody 00:17:42.869 --> 00:17:45.069 recently, a World War Two vet that was had that 00:17:45.069 --> 00:17:47.049 experience working on the Eastern Front, but 00:17:47.049 --> 00:17:48.869 very little is known about that. But he explained 00:17:48.869 --> 00:17:51.849 to me at that moment, things started to change 00:17:51.849 --> 00:17:54.390 for them. You know, they had had had a chance, 00:17:54.410 --> 00:17:57.869 they had hope. Whereas before it was, it was 00:17:57.869 --> 00:18:01.549 a rather dour outlook for them. And he couldn't 00:18:01.549 --> 00:18:03.589 understand this man's in his 80s at the time, 00:18:03.930 --> 00:18:07.210 driving the cab and saying, why would you boys 00:18:07.589 --> 00:18:11.190 leave the safety of your own home, which is, 00:18:11.190 --> 00:18:12.990 of course, thousands of miles away, an ocean 00:18:12.990 --> 00:18:16.049 away, a continent away, why would you come and 00:18:16.049 --> 00:18:19.089 fight in our land with us when we didn't even 00:18:19.089 --> 00:18:21.589 want to be there fighting? And it was a very 00:18:21.589 --> 00:18:25.289 emotional conversation that we had. And, you 00:18:25.289 --> 00:18:28.150 know, that was obviously very impactful to me, 00:18:28.190 --> 00:18:31.769 right? Because he was here in front of me, sharing 00:18:31.769 --> 00:18:34.869 the story because of the sacrifices of others 00:18:34.869 --> 00:18:38.730 that I would never meet. And so against that, 00:18:38.990 --> 00:18:41.269 with that story, he shared a second story against 00:18:41.269 --> 00:18:43.710 the backdrop of war and deprivation and horror. 00:18:44.170 --> 00:18:48.990 And we know what that's like. The American troops 00:18:48.990 --> 00:18:53.309 had food every day. They had rations every day. 00:18:53.569 --> 00:18:56.190 And again, this was baffling to him in his 80s, 00:18:56.250 --> 00:18:58.829 as I'm sure as it was as a teenager. He explained 00:18:58.829 --> 00:19:01.349 they would be fed only every four or five days. 00:19:00.910 --> 00:19:04.190 five days by the Russian Red Army. They'd have 00:19:04.190 --> 00:19:06.250 a bowl of something every four to five days. 00:19:06.309 --> 00:19:09.150 Let's call it porridge. I don't know. And yet 00:19:09.150 --> 00:19:11.269 here the American troops, thousands of miles 00:19:11.269 --> 00:19:16.390 from home, had their rations. And humanity emerged. 00:19:16.650 --> 00:19:18.609 The American troops, he explained, would open 00:19:18.609 --> 00:19:22.049 their rations and share what they had with him 00:19:22.049 --> 00:19:25.049 and his Ukrainian colleagues. A half of a chocolate 00:19:25.049 --> 00:19:28.599 bar, a cigarette. It was, you know, I mean, I 00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:31.180 get emotional when I realize, you know, against 00:19:31.180 --> 00:19:35.980 this horror and darkness of war, compassion and 00:19:35.980 --> 00:19:38.319 brotherhood emerges. And that really had an influence 00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:40.940 on me. I got out of the cab and I went to get 00:19:40.940 --> 00:19:43.539 my luggage out of the trunk and I turned around 00:19:43.539 --> 00:19:45.920 and there he was. And with his hand extended, 00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:49.619 he said, I want to say thank you to America. 00:19:50.220 --> 00:19:54.079 Humbling, right? You know, me, I'm no one. To 00:19:54.079 --> 00:19:58.319 shake his hand and accept that. Well, that set 00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:01.000 off 10 years of telling the story and laying 00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:04.420 in bed at night thinking about the personal experience 00:20:04.420 --> 00:20:07.160 of sacrifice and war, not that the third army 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:12.400 moved south under Patton. But the personal story 00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:16.880 of leaving a safe home to go fight in a foreign 00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:19.720 land and then ultimately dying in a foreign land 00:20:19.720 --> 00:20:22.380 and what happens then? Right, right, right. And 00:20:22.380 --> 00:20:26.420 so for me, it became, you know, disturbing that 00:20:26.420 --> 00:20:29.039 I could never go and thank them. And 2017, I 00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:31.619 started to work with Mary Virginia Swanson, who 00:20:31.619 --> 00:20:34.740 is a very well known photography book consultant. 00:20:36.220 --> 00:20:38.960 She's been an incredible assistant to me, but 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:43.200 she gave me a real jolt of energy when we talked 00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:45.019 about this because Mary Virginia is well known 00:20:45.019 --> 00:20:47.900 and she worked for Ansel Adams as you heard me 00:20:47.900 --> 00:20:50.519 say before when she was a younger woman and so 00:20:50.519 --> 00:20:52.299 that she would lend her name to this project 00:20:52.299 --> 00:20:54.079 that she would stand behind this project meant 00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:56.720 a lot to me and so we formulated this plan and 00:20:56.720 --> 00:20:58.480 I worked with the American Battle Monuments Commission 00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:01.880 that manages and maintains 26 overseas military 00:21:01.880 --> 00:21:05.160 cemeteries of which 23 pertained to World War 00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:07.700 I and World War II, and they were extremely supportive, 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:09.440 and it was just a wonderful organization to work 00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:12.640 with. And from that, I launched into six years 00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:15.279 of travel, four years of travel, two years that 00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:17.839 were lost or gained to COVID, lost in the sense 00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:19.900 I couldn't travel, but it allowed me to expand 00:21:19.900 --> 00:21:22.680 the biographical section in the middle of the 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:24.740 book, the middle chapter of the book. And this 00:21:24.740 --> 00:21:27.279 is a part I think a lot of people won't, you 00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:28.980 know, haven't thought about, maybe haven't read, 00:21:29.160 --> 00:21:32.839 haven't seen the history. there are 26 overseas 00:21:32.839 --> 00:21:38.200 cemeteries, and it's what, 100 ,000 plus men 00:21:38.200 --> 00:21:42.799 primarily who never returned home? I use the 00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:44.960 term memorialized, but there's over 200 ,000 00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:46.819 of those that are memorialized from World War 00:21:46.819 --> 00:21:49.539 I and World War II. And the reason I use memorialized 00:21:49.539 --> 00:21:52.619 is for those of us who served in the Navy or 00:21:52.619 --> 00:21:54.599 in the Marine Corps or in the Army Air Services, 00:21:54.980 --> 00:21:58.650 many of them Have never and will never be recovered 00:21:58.650 --> 00:22:02.049 lost forever. So just rough numbers World War 00:22:02.049 --> 00:22:05.670 two is around 93 ,000 that are buried overseas 00:22:05.670 --> 00:22:09.150 And there's about 79 ,000 that are listed on 00:22:09.150 --> 00:22:11.170 the walls of the missing almost a one -for -one 00:22:11.170 --> 00:22:15.789 ratio and these cemeteries Who maintains them 00:22:15.789 --> 00:22:20.730 who owns them who? Who honors these men who never 00:22:20.730 --> 00:22:23.420 returned home? So the American Battle Monuments 00:22:23.420 --> 00:22:26.900 Commission, which in 2023 celebrated its 100th 00:22:26.900 --> 00:22:29.980 anniversary, manages all of these cemeteries. 00:22:30.460 --> 00:22:33.559 It's an incredible organization of the US government. 00:22:33.900 --> 00:22:37.099 They have about 470, 480 employees, of which 00:22:37.099 --> 00:22:39.900 I think around 400 are foreign nationals. And 00:22:39.900 --> 00:22:44.980 so these cemeteries technically belong to the 00:22:44.980 --> 00:22:49.240 countries where they're built. But they are provided 00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:53.980 to our nation free of charge in a perpetual lease 00:22:53.980 --> 00:22:59.000 by the host nations. So they're managed and maintained 00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:02.599 by the ABMC, which includes mostly foreign nationals 00:23:02.599 --> 00:23:07.039 that wash the headstones, keep the grass meticulously 00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:09.400 trimmed. And I always say this, as you know, 00:23:09.500 --> 00:23:11.779 Jim, I challenge you, go find a cigarette butt 00:23:11.779 --> 00:23:14.039 in one of them. You'll never find one. Go find 00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:15.839 a piece of plastic on the ground. You'll never 00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:18.859 find one. They maintain meticulous care, as they 00:23:18.859 --> 00:23:20.680 should, as they rightly should, of these final 00:23:20.680 --> 00:23:22.740 resting places. And I think most of us have been 00:23:22.740 --> 00:23:25.920 at national cemeteries in our states that the 00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:29.220 VA maintains, where we've stopped by or seen 00:23:29.220 --> 00:23:33.920 film of Arlington National Cemetery. And I think 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:39.279 we all walk away amazed at how well kept they 00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:43.630 are. but how respectful it is and how much you 00:23:43.630 --> 00:23:46.890 walk away feeling like this is sacred ground 00:23:46.890 --> 00:23:51.410 and is treated as sacred ground. And in looking 00:23:51.410 --> 00:23:55.369 at the photos in the book Never Home, you get 00:23:55.369 --> 00:23:58.609 that same feeling that this is not only well 00:23:58.609 --> 00:24:00.789 maintained, but really sacred ground. And as 00:24:00.789 --> 00:24:03.490 you were going around and capturing these photographs 00:24:03.490 --> 00:24:06.910 and capturing these stories, tell me what you 00:24:06.910 --> 00:24:12.910 walked away with. Well, certainly it's a change 00:24:12.910 --> 00:24:16.230 of your life for sure. So when I speak to folks 00:24:16.230 --> 00:24:18.109 about going, oh, I'm going to go to Normandy 00:24:18.109 --> 00:24:20.750 next year or I'm going to Florence or wherever, 00:24:21.450 --> 00:24:25.130 I always say caveat emptor. When you walk in 00:24:25.130 --> 00:24:27.930 the cemetery, you will be changed. And by the 00:24:27.930 --> 00:24:29.670 time you walk out, you will feel very differently 00:24:29.670 --> 00:24:35.089 about this. I feel like in Europe, the World 00:24:35.089 --> 00:24:39.480 Wars are much more recent than they are in the 00:24:39.480 --> 00:24:41.859 United States. And maybe that's due to geography. 00:24:41.960 --> 00:24:43.900 But I'll give you an example. My first cemetery 00:24:43.900 --> 00:24:46.420 I went to was a World War Cemetery, the Somme, 00:24:46.759 --> 00:24:52.400 up north of Paris on Memorial Day in 2018. I 00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:55.359 got there early. I had press credentials, went 00:24:55.359 --> 00:24:58.900 in, start photographing, getting ready. And then 00:24:58.900 --> 00:25:02.279 there's a little town up on the hill. And when 00:25:02.279 --> 00:25:04.299 the family was getting ready to get, all these 00:25:04.299 --> 00:25:08.450 French folks, 100 years. after the end of World 00:25:08.450 --> 00:25:11.890 War I, in their finest, right? Women in dresses, 00:25:12.009 --> 00:25:15.190 men in suits comes, like the whole town just 00:25:15.190 --> 00:25:17.089 kind of empties and comes down to the cemetery, 00:25:17.289 --> 00:25:22.170 right? So these are very sacred grounds for sure. 00:25:22.369 --> 00:25:25.349 And our allies keep meticulously care of them. 00:25:25.789 --> 00:25:28.509 I think what's changed is that it's more recent 00:25:28.509 --> 00:25:32.470 for me now, right? Sometimes it's because... 00:25:32.269 --> 00:25:35.190 You know, I talked to my uncle, my dad's brother, 00:25:35.230 --> 00:25:38.410 but, you know, I was a little kid at the time. 00:25:39.329 --> 00:25:42.589 And it changed their lives in Europe without 00:25:42.589 --> 00:25:44.930 that American presence. But I want to expand 00:25:44.930 --> 00:25:47.470 this a little bit, because I think again, maybe 00:25:47.470 --> 00:25:49.829 people go, yeah, there are those over in Europe, 00:25:50.490 --> 00:25:53.890 but kind of surprised to find out that they're 00:25:53.890 --> 00:25:56.269 in the Philippines and they're elsewhere around 00:25:56.269 --> 00:25:58.730 the world. Give us some of those other locations 00:25:58.730 --> 00:26:01.859 that that probably aren't top of mind. Yeah, 00:26:01.900 --> 00:26:05.299 so it took me six years and eight trips to go 00:26:05.299 --> 00:26:07.380 to three continents. Most of them, of course, 00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:13.039 are in Europe, France, Belgium. General Patton's 00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:15.700 laid to rest in Luxembourg, the Netherlands, 00:26:16.019 --> 00:26:18.720 which is incidentally the second most visited 00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:21.960 cemetery behind, of course, Normandy. And as 00:26:21.960 --> 00:26:23.980 I say, it really has nothing really to do with 00:26:23.980 --> 00:26:26.450 the Americans, the Dutch. Robert Edsel has written 00:26:26.450 --> 00:26:29.210 a book about this, a tremendous passion for keeping 00:26:29.210 --> 00:26:31.789 the memories of those who sacrificed so much 00:26:31.789 --> 00:26:34.289 alive and all the headstones are adopted there 00:26:34.289 --> 00:26:36.890 by the Dutch families. Italy, there are two in 00:26:36.890 --> 00:26:40.710 Italy. I think I mentioned Belgium already. England, 00:26:40.930 --> 00:26:43.529 of course, there's World War I and World War 00:26:43.529 --> 00:26:47.410 II cemetery in England where those who were in 00:26:47.410 --> 00:26:49.450 the sea services or those who died in training 00:26:49.450 --> 00:26:51.849 accidents are rich. And then in North Africa, 00:26:52.029 --> 00:26:55.549 the famed standoff between the Desert Fox and 00:26:55.549 --> 00:26:59.730 Patent in the desert. And it's one of the four 00:26:59.730 --> 00:27:01.769 cemeteries in North Africa where there are again 00:27:01.769 --> 00:27:04.369 more on the walls of the missing from World War 00:27:04.369 --> 00:27:06.690 II than there are actually buried there because 00:27:06.690 --> 00:27:08.710 of the amphibious operations which we have just 00:27:08.710 --> 00:27:11.450 beginning to learn as well as that hostile desert 00:27:11.450 --> 00:27:14.609 environment where bodies are lost and never to 00:27:14.609 --> 00:27:18.170 be recovered. So North Africa and then of course 00:27:18.170 --> 00:27:23.160 Manila is The largest in terms of those who are 00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:26.839 memorialized. I mean it vastly is greater than 00:27:26.839 --> 00:27:30.880 Then Normandy there are over 17 ,000 individuals 00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:34.940 headstones that are there over 17 ,000 so almost 00:27:34.940 --> 00:27:37.619 twice as many as Normandy and then a daunting 00:27:37.619 --> 00:27:42.480 number of you know, over 36 ,000 on the walls 00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:45.400 of the missing. Now, Manila covers the entirety 00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:48.599 of the war as opposed to eight weeks or a 12 00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:51.319 week or four month campaign. It covers from 41 00:27:51.319 --> 00:27:54.019 to at a big geography, right? You know, I think 00:27:54.019 --> 00:27:57.599 about You know MacArthur flees the Philippines 00:27:57.599 --> 00:28:00.920 in May of 42 at the very same month that the 00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:03.359 US Navy records one of its really pivotal victories 00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:05.539 over the Japanese down in the Battle of Leyte 00:28:05.539 --> 00:28:09.200 Gulf and stop the progression of the the Japanese 00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:12.500 down into New Guinea and down towards Obviously 00:28:12.500 --> 00:28:15.920 Australia, but you know Manila covers the entirety 00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:18.839 of the war. So it's it's enormous in terms of 00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:21.660 those memorialized there Let me let me come back 00:28:21.660 --> 00:28:26.440 to the book never home As you were putting that 00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:29.099 together and as I say, it's not only photographs, 00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:32.740 it's stories, it's interviews with veterans, 00:28:34.579 --> 00:28:37.619 with people with deep connections to the cemeteries. 00:28:39.519 --> 00:28:42.519 Who's your audience and where do you want this 00:28:42.519 --> 00:28:45.500 book to end up? Let's talk about how people can 00:28:45.500 --> 00:28:48.759 buy it and kind of what you think they'll get 00:28:48.759 --> 00:28:53.039 out of it. Okay, yeah, I mean, the audience is 00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:58.299 anyone who will stop and listen. So there's obviously 00:28:58.299 --> 00:29:02.859 those of a certain age that have served in Vietnam 00:29:02.859 --> 00:29:06.640 or Korea or World War II, and now even the Gulf 00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:09.180 War. The veteran community obviously is a big 00:29:09.180 --> 00:29:12.140 part of that. I think certainly veterans over 00:29:12.140 --> 00:29:15.849 50. something changes, I think, you know, that 00:29:15.849 --> 00:29:19.509 love of that experience and our brothers strengthens, 00:29:19.769 --> 00:29:23.130 I think, after 50. So certainly, that's a key, 00:29:24.150 --> 00:29:25.970 I hate to use the term commercial audience, but 00:29:25.970 --> 00:29:29.009 a key audience that buys the book. On the other 00:29:29.009 --> 00:29:30.829 side, there's an audience that really doesn't 00:29:30.829 --> 00:29:33.710 buy the book that I'm very passionate about is 00:29:33.710 --> 00:29:37.250 these young people, right? I've done high schools, 00:29:37.430 --> 00:29:40.829 I've done universities. The idea is, is that, 00:29:40.849 --> 00:29:44.559 you know, they consume information, they learn 00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:47.680 more visually than through reading than we did 00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:51.200 as young men and women, right? They want to see 00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:53.839 a video, they want to look at books or pictures, 00:29:53.940 --> 00:29:57.819 they want to look at, I don't know, a short clips 00:29:57.819 --> 00:30:01.980 of things. And so my hope is, is that, you know, 00:30:01.980 --> 00:30:04.819 I can have a beneficial impact on them because 00:30:04.819 --> 00:30:07.619 for them, you know, You know, they've not talked. 00:30:07.700 --> 00:30:09.319 They didn't have an uncle who was in World War 00:30:09.319 --> 00:30:11.220 II. Maybe it was a great uncle or a great great 00:30:11.220 --> 00:30:13.599 uncle. Right. They didn't have anyone that they 00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:18.619 really knew. And so it's distant for them. It's 00:30:18.619 --> 00:30:21.779 almost like just over the horizon for them to 00:30:21.779 --> 00:30:24.759 relate to. It could be the Middle Ages. It could 00:30:24.759 --> 00:30:26.960 be, you know, the time of the New Testament. 00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:29.119 And it's just it's just in this nebulous pocket 00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:32.359 of ancient history, which is really not. And 00:30:32.359 --> 00:30:35.099 so to have that opportunity to share these images 00:30:35.099 --> 00:30:39.220 with them and the stories of those who were killed 00:30:39.220 --> 00:30:43.539 that were 19, 20, 24, 26 years old, 28 years 00:30:43.539 --> 00:30:46.940 old, that they can relate to, it's my hope that 00:30:46.940 --> 00:30:48.940 that has the biggest impact, that audience has 00:30:48.940 --> 00:30:50.960 the biggest, the book has the biggest impact 00:30:50.960 --> 00:30:54.079 on that audience, on that demographic. I see 00:30:54.079 --> 00:30:56.519 the book and the photographs in the book as sort 00:30:56.519 --> 00:30:59.759 of a key that hopefully unlocks some curiosity. 00:31:00.140 --> 00:31:02.240 where they go, I want to, I didn't know about 00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:04.660 that. That's interesting. I want to learn more. 00:31:05.099 --> 00:31:08.920 And that photograph may unlock them to go, whether 00:31:08.920 --> 00:31:11.160 it's search on the web or go to the library and 00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:13.759 say, I want to know more about this cemetery, 00:31:13.839 --> 00:31:16.099 the folks who fought there and that. So I really 00:31:16.099 --> 00:31:21.539 think that's the sort of long -term value, Richard 00:31:21.539 --> 00:31:25.900 Sherman. And if folks want the book, tell us, 00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:27.819 there's a website for the book. Tell us about 00:31:27.819 --> 00:31:31.109 that. Sure. I'll digress before I get that if 00:31:31.109 --> 00:31:33.170 we have a minute, Jim. They say if you want to 00:31:33.170 --> 00:31:35.190 meet an American college student, go to Florence, 00:31:35.529 --> 00:31:37.390 right? Because they all study abroad at Florence. 00:31:37.990 --> 00:31:41.170 It's 20 minutes to the American cemetery in Florence, 00:31:41.230 --> 00:31:44.349 whereas if you're in Paris, it's three plus hours 00:31:44.349 --> 00:31:46.910 to get out to Normandy. Your heart and your soul 00:31:46.910 --> 00:31:51.049 will be changed in Florence as it is in Normandy, 00:31:51.210 --> 00:31:53.369 right? that I would wish that there would be 00:31:53.369 --> 00:31:55.490 a way to insert it in that everyone who studies 00:31:55.490 --> 00:31:58.289 abroad takes that 20 minute ride all those young 00:31:58.289 --> 00:32:02.569 folks. The project has a homepage never home 00:32:02.569 --> 00:32:07.410 heroes .com never home heroes .com. And there's 00:32:07.410 --> 00:32:11.049 a link to buy the book and I ship you the book. 00:32:11.250 --> 00:32:15.690 The book sells for $29 .50. I'm very proud to 00:32:15.690 --> 00:32:18.309 keep it as low a price as possible. It wasn't 00:32:18.309 --> 00:32:21.299 about making the New York Times bestseller list 00:32:21.299 --> 00:32:24.619 or making money on it, because we're a long way 00:32:24.619 --> 00:32:26.839 from recuperating. This is a self -funded project. 00:32:27.799 --> 00:32:30.079 It took six years and eight trips to travel around 00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:32.660 the world to do this. But I wanted to keep it 00:32:32.660 --> 00:32:34.859 accessible because this is about, I have a duty 00:32:34.859 --> 00:32:37.359 to those. They've become like brothers and sisters 00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:40.299 to me. There's, by the way, six nurses and females 00:32:40.299 --> 00:32:43.900 in there, many of which that were killed before 00:32:43.900 --> 00:32:47.859 or served before American forces arrived. into 00:32:47.859 --> 00:32:50.599 Europe or into World War Two or even World War 00:32:50.599 --> 00:32:54.019 One in certain cases. So neverhomeheroes .com 00:32:54.019 --> 00:32:55.819 and you can buy the book there. The other thing 00:32:55.819 --> 00:32:57.859 I'm very proud of is we printed this book in 00:32:57.859 --> 00:33:00.519 the United States. You know, it was much cheaper 00:33:00.519 --> 00:33:03.420 to be able to print it in Korea or China, but 00:33:03.420 --> 00:33:07.279 it was my decision that this had to be printed 00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:10.640 in the United States and Warzalla Sheridan up 00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:14.430 in Wisconsin did a fine job. in printing the 00:33:14.430 --> 00:33:16.089 book and I'm really proud to have worked with 00:33:16.089 --> 00:33:18.789 them and very grateful for the work. Let me bring 00:33:18.789 --> 00:33:22.849 this full circle because at the outset I indicated 00:33:22.849 --> 00:33:25.829 you had certain qualities, intellectual curiosity, 00:33:25.950 --> 00:33:29.089 being well rounded, curious, you added in analytical 00:33:29.089 --> 00:33:33.150 and you can see how all those traits of veteran 00:33:33.150 --> 00:33:37.009 radio listeners Richard Sherman has brought to 00:33:37.009 --> 00:33:39.890 this project. We highly recommend go to the website, 00:33:40.289 --> 00:33:44.109 buy the book. Leave it out. So maybe it will 00:33:44.109 --> 00:33:46.890 be the key that unlocks curiosity for somebody 00:33:46.890 --> 00:33:49.710 else to go I didn't know that What went on in 00:33:49.710 --> 00:33:52.650 the Philippines or what went on in at Florence 00:33:52.650 --> 00:33:54.829 that this is there? So we would encourage you 00:33:54.829 --> 00:33:58.910 to do that Let me if you got a couple more minutes 00:33:58.910 --> 00:34:02.170 I want to ask you a question because I happen 00:34:02.170 --> 00:34:05.490 to know a Marine who has just been appointed 00:34:05.490 --> 00:34:08.989 the ambassador to Tunisia I know about the North 00:34:08.989 --> 00:34:11.610 Africa conflict but I didn't know anything about 00:34:11.610 --> 00:34:14.150 the Tunisian cemetery. Tell me a little bit about 00:34:14.150 --> 00:34:17.489 that so next time when I see them I can regale 00:34:17.489 --> 00:34:20.469 them with what you know. Very good. Yeah, so 00:34:20.469 --> 00:34:24.590 it's right there in Tunis, Tunisia, right past 00:34:24.590 --> 00:34:26.670 along the shores of the Mediterranean on the 00:34:26.670 --> 00:34:30.030 southern coast of the Mediterranean. There are 00:34:30.030 --> 00:34:33.889 some 2 ,700, little over 2 ,700 headstones there. 00:34:34.309 --> 00:34:38.210 It's a beautiful cemetery. It's one of our smaller 00:34:38.210 --> 00:34:42.760 cemeteries. 27 acres, just over 27 acres. There's 00:34:42.760 --> 00:34:44.920 a thousand more listed on the walls of the missing. 00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:48.500 It has beautiful, peaceful fountains that run 00:34:48.500 --> 00:34:52.880 through it. You can see in the picture in the 00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:56.860 book, you see a mosque in the background. It's 00:34:56.860 --> 00:34:59.500 a wonderful final resting place for those who 00:34:59.500 --> 00:35:03.480 served in that campaign. And of course, the North 00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:06.000 African campaign was a lot of things. I'll try 00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:08.980 to keep it short. Three things. One, You know, 00:35:09.079 --> 00:35:11.539 deserts are not really easy places to hold land. 00:35:11.619 --> 00:35:13.719 It's easy to take land, but it's very difficult 00:35:13.719 --> 00:35:17.000 to hold land. And so before our arrival, the 00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:19.679 American arrival and the massive force that we 00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:22.900 brought, starting in Morocco, Algeria, Tunis, 00:35:23.119 --> 00:35:25.599 and eventually getting to the east to help our 00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:29.840 British allies in Egypt. It was a bit of a soccer 00:35:29.840 --> 00:35:32.980 pitch, right? The sides were changed very, very 00:35:32.980 --> 00:35:35.460 quickly. And what was left was a lot of war dead 00:35:35.460 --> 00:35:38.800 and casualties from that experience. So it's 00:35:38.800 --> 00:35:40.579 a hard place to hold territory. And of course, 00:35:40.739 --> 00:35:42.480 point number two is the British were adamant 00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:46.059 because, and the French, because we needed the 00:35:46.059 --> 00:35:48.199 oil to come out of the Middle East up through 00:35:48.199 --> 00:35:53.400 the Suez to continue to help with the war effort. 00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:55.719 You know, there's an old saying in... Jimmy Ferby 00:35:55.719 --> 00:35:58.099 say in the military is that, you know, firepower 00:35:58.099 --> 00:36:00.420 wins battles, but logistics wins wars, right? 00:36:01.179 --> 00:36:03.400 And so the Egyptians, excuse me, the British 00:36:03.400 --> 00:36:07.780 and Egypt endured quite a, quite a beating and 00:36:07.780 --> 00:36:10.679 quite a difficult time there. And the third thing 00:36:10.679 --> 00:36:15.869 I'll say is that there are very interesting headstones 00:36:15.869 --> 00:36:18.389 there of those who had served. For example, there 00:36:18.389 --> 00:36:20.550 are those who served in a water battalion that 00:36:20.550 --> 00:36:23.449 are buried there. You know, just logistics, like 00:36:23.449 --> 00:36:25.969 just providing water so people don't die of thirst 00:36:25.969 --> 00:36:29.710 at the front, or it was an important piece of 00:36:29.710 --> 00:36:33.869 logistics. And Foy Draper is buried there. Now, 00:36:33.869 --> 00:36:36.369 Foy Draper is one of the two Olympians that are 00:36:36.369 --> 00:36:39.230 in my book. Foy Draper won the Olympic gold medal 00:36:39.230 --> 00:36:42.639 in 1936. in front of Adolf Hitler running the 00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:47.179 four by 100 relay with Jesse Owens. He went on 00:36:47.179 --> 00:36:51.099 to become an A -20 Bravo Havoc pilot. And in 00:36:51.099 --> 00:36:54.820 the battle of Kasserine Pass, his plane either 00:36:54.820 --> 00:36:56.880 went down to mechanical error or shot down. It's 00:36:56.880 --> 00:36:59.599 not exactly certain. But his plane went down 00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:04.150 and he was killed on January 4, 1943. Here we 00:37:04.150 --> 00:37:06.690 have, you know, a hero in many fronts. By today's 00:37:06.690 --> 00:37:08.989 standards, most of our heroes are athletes. So 00:37:08.989 --> 00:37:11.489 he was an incredible athlete with the NCAA championship 00:37:11.489 --> 00:37:14.190 in the sprint, in the 100 and 200, I believe. 00:37:14.949 --> 00:37:16.989 But anyway, he was the NCAA champion in sprinting. 00:37:17.809 --> 00:37:20.690 And here he went on to serve his nation and unfortunately 00:37:20.690 --> 00:37:24.409 never made it home. And he's there as well as 00:37:24.409 --> 00:37:26.570 several Native Americans that are there. We have 00:37:26.570 --> 00:37:29.070 four cemeteries, including Tunis, Tunisia, that 00:37:29.070 --> 00:37:32.309 have Native Americans that were killed in service 00:37:32.309 --> 00:37:36.769 to their nation. Well, I look forward to talking 00:37:36.769 --> 00:37:39.630 with Ambassador Bozzi and dropping a few of these 00:37:39.630 --> 00:37:42.690 facts and making sure he and as a Marine I'm 00:37:42.690 --> 00:37:47.250 sure he will appropriately honor the 2700 who 00:37:47.250 --> 00:37:50.070 are there in the thousand on the on the wall 00:37:50.070 --> 00:37:53.969 of the missing Richard Sherman, thank you for 00:37:53.969 --> 00:37:56.510 taking some time today. I'm glad we got this 00:37:56.510 --> 00:37:59.550 the connection all sorted out but thank you for 00:37:59.550 --> 00:38:02.579 taking time to talk to veterans radio on the 00:38:02.579 --> 00:38:05.099 book and your experiences in putting together 00:38:05.099 --> 00:38:08.550 Never Home. Jim, thanks to you and Veterans Radio. 00:38:08.670 --> 00:38:11.489 I mean, we need this in our society day, this 00:38:11.489 --> 00:38:13.030 connection, this important connection that we 00:38:13.030 --> 00:38:16.690 have. We need community in a world that's really 00:38:16.690 --> 00:38:18.449 kind of built around transaction. It's great 00:38:18.449 --> 00:38:20.389 to be part of your community. And thank you for 00:38:20.389 --> 00:38:22.650 having me on today. And I want to thank everybody 00:38:22.650 --> 00:38:25.469 for listening to Veterans Radio today. I am Jim 00:38:25.469 --> 00:38:28.349 Fossone. It's been a pleasure to be your host. 00:38:28.489 --> 00:38:31.150 I'm a Veterans Disability Lawyer at Legal Help 00:38:31.150 --> 00:38:35.190 for Veterans. 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