WEBVTT 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.039 Live from Ann Arbor, Michigan, this is Veterans 00:00:18.039 --> 00:00:21.219 Radio and now here's your host Dale Throneberry. 00:00:25.699 --> 00:00:28.100 And beginning of this portion of our Veterans 00:00:28.100 --> 00:00:29.820 Radio program, Ken's going to give us a little 00:00:29.820 --> 00:00:31.739 bit of news. What's going on in the world of 00:00:31.739 --> 00:00:34.560 military affairs? Well, the Department of Veterans 00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:37.500 Affairs recently dedicated a ceremony to officially 00:00:37.500 --> 00:00:41.020 open the Sacramento Valley VA National Cemetery 00:00:41.020 --> 00:00:45.600 in Dixon, California. Nearly 346 ,000 veterans 00:00:45.600 --> 00:00:47.939 and their families live within the service radius 00:00:47.939 --> 00:00:51.200 of the National Cemetery. Burials began in October 00:00:51.200 --> 00:00:55.780 of 2006 on approximately 14 acres, which includes 00:00:55.780 --> 00:00:58.299 a committal shelter and three burial sections. 00:00:58.799 --> 00:01:01.359 And you can get more information on VA burial 00:01:01.359 --> 00:01:10.400 benefits by going to CEM .VA .gov. That's the 00:01:10.400 --> 00:01:13.870 Veterans Affairs webpage. An airman assigned 00:01:13.870 --> 00:01:16.109 to the 50th Mission Support Squadron recently 00:01:16.109 --> 00:01:19.329 fell victim to a new banking scam. The scammers 00:01:19.329 --> 00:01:22.209 apparently generate random routing and account 00:01:22.209 --> 00:01:25.390 numbers into which they try to deposit one cent. 00:01:26.209 --> 00:01:29.680 Once the one cent deposit clears, The perpetrators 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:32.299 know the account is active and begin to withdraw 00:01:32.299 --> 00:01:34.680 funds from the account. The withdrawals seem 00:01:34.680 --> 00:01:36.540 to take place near the beginning of the month 00:01:36.540 --> 00:01:39.900 and some people have only seen a single withdrawal 00:01:39.900 --> 00:01:43.219 from their accounts. So, word of the wise, check 00:01:43.219 --> 00:01:45.359 your accounts frequently. It sounds like PayPal. 00:01:45.780 --> 00:01:48.040 It's similar, yeah. That's the way that they 00:01:48.040 --> 00:01:51.379 test your account. But PayPal is a little more 00:01:51.379 --> 00:01:54.379 secure. These guys are just getting into a bank 00:01:54.379 --> 00:01:56.859 and randomly running numbers and seeing what 00:01:56.859 --> 00:02:00.599 happens. That's dangerous. So keep your word 00:02:00.599 --> 00:02:02.920 to the wise. Know what's going on with your account. 00:02:04.099 --> 00:02:06.620 Drug researchers in the United States are trying 00:02:06.620 --> 00:02:09.219 to develop a controversial new treatment that 00:02:09.219 --> 00:02:11.659 could potentially help by reducing the intensity 00:02:11.659 --> 00:02:14.400 of a particular traumatic memory in veterans 00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:17.699 with post -traumatic stress disorder. They stress 00:02:17.699 --> 00:02:19.599 they are not trying to wipe out the memory itself, 00:02:19.620 --> 00:02:22.620 but rather to alter the patient's response to 00:02:22.620 --> 00:02:26.639 it. Evidently, what they do is they give them 00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:31.250 the drug that eases the the reaction and that's 00:02:31.250 --> 00:02:34.849 their goal is to try to to relieve the anxieties 00:02:34.849 --> 00:02:36.750 and stresses. It's an interesting story that 00:02:36.750 --> 00:02:40.909 I was talking to my undercover agent who works 00:02:40.909 --> 00:02:47.530 with the Michigan National Guard and supposedly 00:02:47.530 --> 00:02:49.409 when the troops come back from overseas they're 00:02:49.409 --> 00:02:51.889 being debriefed you know and you go through what 00:02:51.889 --> 00:02:53.629 the treatments are what your issues are and so 00:02:53.629 --> 00:02:55.669 on and so forth. Well one of the problems is 00:02:55.669 --> 00:02:59.280 that those debriefings are taking up to a year 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:01.620 and a half to sit down and talk with some of 00:03:01.620 --> 00:03:03.379 these veterans and find out what their issues 00:03:03.379 --> 00:03:06.740 are and that that's resulting obviously in some 00:03:06.740 --> 00:03:09.060 problems. Another issue that's going on with 00:03:09.060 --> 00:03:11.659 the Veterans Affairs Office right now is that 00:03:11.659 --> 00:03:13.639 some of the people at the higher up levels of 00:03:13.639 --> 00:03:17.439 the VA got really nice bonuses. Oh, really? Yes, 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:20.219 for their work over the last year. Oh, that's 00:03:20.219 --> 00:03:21.960 nice. And that's something that we're going to 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:24.800 be talking about in a couple of weeks. We all 00:03:24.800 --> 00:03:26.539 know that the Veterans Administration, at least 00:03:26.539 --> 00:03:28.520 most of the local VA hospitals, do the best that 00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:31.699 they can with the funds that they have, and it's 00:03:31.699 --> 00:03:33.680 something I think that we need to address later 00:03:33.680 --> 00:03:36.120 on. This is coming down from a number of sources 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:38.240 that were sending me emails over the week. People 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:40.500 were a little bit upset with that. I would be 00:03:40.500 --> 00:03:42.659 upset with that, too, yes. Yeah, for such a good 00:03:42.659 --> 00:03:46.599 job. And one final news item. in a very sad one. 00:03:46.819 --> 00:03:48.379 The United States has lost one of its heroes 00:03:48.379 --> 00:03:51.539 Thursday. Wally Schirra, one of the seven original 00:03:51.539 --> 00:03:53.439 astronauts, died of a heart attack in Scripps 00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:56.439 Green Hospital near San Diego. He was a Naval 00:03:56.439 --> 00:03:59.199 Academy graduate, shot down an enemy jet in Korea, 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:02.240 and went on to set several space records. He 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:04.960 was the only astronaut to fly in the first three 00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:08.020 space programs, the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo. 00:04:08.189 --> 00:04:11.550 In 1965, he performed the first rendezvous in 00:04:11.550 --> 00:04:14.909 space maneuvering his Gemini 6 to within 10 feet 00:04:14.909 --> 00:04:19.389 of Gemini 7. Wally Schirra was 84 years old. 00:04:20.230 --> 00:04:24.370 I still idolize those guys and I think most of 00:04:24.370 --> 00:04:26.329 us of our generation just think they were so 00:04:26.329 --> 00:04:28.910 amazing and heroic in what they did and how anybody 00:04:28.910 --> 00:04:31.730 had the nerve to go up in space like that. Remember 00:04:31.730 --> 00:04:33.209 they used to isolate them when they'd come back 00:04:33.209 --> 00:04:34.610 and they didn't know what they'd been exposed 00:04:34.610 --> 00:04:38.220 to and so forth. I still want to go. Well, all 00:04:38.220 --> 00:04:40.439 you need is what? Ten million dollars or something 00:04:40.439 --> 00:04:44.180 like that. I might have to cash a paycheck. Okay, 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:47.399 yeah, quit hoarding all your money. It's time 00:04:47.399 --> 00:04:49.839 for Welcome Home, and each week, Veterans Radio, 00:04:50.300 --> 00:04:52.319 we welcome home servicemen and women who have 00:04:52.319 --> 00:04:54.399 been stationed around the world in the service 00:04:54.399 --> 00:04:57.620 of our country. Sal's Restaurant provided a welcome 00:04:57.620 --> 00:05:00.240 home meal for over 100 Marines from the 3rd Battalion, 00:05:00.279 --> 00:05:03.420 14th Marine Regiment, on Wednesday the 1st of 00:05:03.420 --> 00:05:06.199 May at West Trenton's Reserve Center in Pennsylvania. 00:05:07.000 --> 00:05:10.879 Soldiers from the Boone -based 1451st Transportation 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:13.279 Company of the North Carolina National Guard 00:05:13.279 --> 00:05:16.939 returned home on Monday, April 30th. And Marine 00:05:16.939 --> 00:05:19.339 Corporal Brad Walker from the Delta Company of 00:05:19.339 --> 00:05:21.899 the 4th Combat Engineer Battalion received a 00:05:21.899 --> 00:05:24.180 very special welcome home celebration from friends 00:05:24.180 --> 00:05:26.779 and family as he walked through his home's front 00:05:26.779 --> 00:05:30.699 door on his new pair of legs. Hudson County held 00:05:30.699 --> 00:05:33.439 a very special ceremony to welcome Vietnam veterans 00:05:33.439 --> 00:05:36.560 on April 12th at the Brennan courthouse in Jersey 00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:39.899 City, New Jersey Welcome home. I think that's 00:05:39.899 --> 00:05:42.939 a that's an incredible thing that was going on 00:05:42.939 --> 00:05:45.240 there in Hudson County is that they they gave 00:05:45.240 --> 00:05:48.959 out medals mm -hmm to the Vietnam veterans and 00:05:48.959 --> 00:05:51.040 the other issue that I wanted to talk about real 00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:54.379 briefly is That as far as welcoming home is concerned 00:05:54.379 --> 00:05:56.300 is that they've added three more veterans names 00:05:56.300 --> 00:06:00.540 to the Vietnam Memorial and Army Sergeant Richard 00:06:00.540 --> 00:06:04.060 Pruitt, who died as a result of complications 00:06:04.060 --> 00:06:06.079 from wounds that he received in the war 30 years 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:11.839 ago. Joseph Gerald Krawicki of Holton, Michigan 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:15.639 and Army Specialist Weston Alvin Stiverson of 00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:17.779 Monticello, Illinois have been added to the Vietnam 00:06:17.779 --> 00:06:20.379 War wall. And on behalf of Veterans Radio, I 00:06:20.379 --> 00:06:23.139 want to tell all of them to welcome them all 00:06:23.139 --> 00:06:25.240 home and welcome home to all the veterans coming 00:06:25.240 --> 00:06:27.060 home from Iraq and around the world. And while 00:06:27.060 --> 00:06:30.060 you're talking about the wall, the 25th anniversary 00:06:30.060 --> 00:06:33.959 of the wall will be coming up this November 11th 00:06:33.959 --> 00:06:37.480 in Washington. So if you're interested in going 00:06:37.480 --> 00:06:41.860 and seeing the wall and helping to observe its 00:06:41.860 --> 00:06:45.319 anniversary, you can do that. And we'll be right 00:06:45.319 --> 00:06:49.939 back. You're listening to Veterans Radio. And 00:06:49.939 --> 00:06:52.480 we are back here on Veterans Radio coming to 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:55.199 you from the studios of Avi Maria Radio in Ann 00:06:55.199 --> 00:06:57.620 Arbor. The program of today is going to be talking 00:06:57.620 --> 00:07:01.079 about a case against some Marines that, and I 00:07:01.079 --> 00:07:02.920 want to kind of set the stage a little bit for 00:07:02.920 --> 00:07:06.899 you, if I can. On November 19th, 2005, members 00:07:06.899 --> 00:07:10.379 of Kilo Company of the Marine Corps were on deployment 00:07:10.379 --> 00:07:15.779 near and about the town of Haditha in Iraq. And 00:07:15.779 --> 00:07:19.899 one of their Humvees was blown up. As a result 00:07:19.899 --> 00:07:25.279 of that, and different variations of what we've 00:07:25.279 --> 00:07:27.579 been able to find out so far, and we'll get into 00:07:27.579 --> 00:07:29.519 this a little bit more later, is that in addition 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:31.959 to the Humvee being blown up and one of the Marines 00:07:31.959 --> 00:07:34.259 being killed, two were seriously wounded, that 00:07:34.259 --> 00:07:36.379 there was a coordinated ambush going on with 00:07:36.379 --> 00:07:39.560 this at the time, and that the Marines fought 00:07:39.560 --> 00:07:43.040 back, and over the period of time, a number of 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:44.959 Iraqi insurgents were killed, and unfortunately, 00:07:45.019 --> 00:07:47.259 a number of Iraqi civilians were killed also. 00:07:49.490 --> 00:07:52.050 After this, a number of different types of investigations 00:07:52.050 --> 00:07:56.350 have been going on. Time magazines had some newsmax. 00:07:57.149 --> 00:07:59.430 Lots of different stories are out there. They 00:07:59.430 --> 00:08:01.430 said it was a massacre. They said it wasn't a 00:08:01.430 --> 00:08:03.769 massacre. They said that the commanders up the 00:08:03.769 --> 00:08:05.829 line didn't know what was going on, didn't follow 00:08:05.829 --> 00:08:09.230 what was happening. Once they did do their investigation, 00:08:09.329 --> 00:08:12.910 they supposedly tried to cover it up. And it's 00:08:12.910 --> 00:08:14.910 just been kind of rolling and rolling and rolling 00:08:14.910 --> 00:08:16.910 as it's been going on over the last couple of 00:08:16.910 --> 00:08:20.470 years. As I say, different news sources have 00:08:20.470 --> 00:08:23.009 had different stories from one end of the spectrum 00:08:23.009 --> 00:08:26.110 to the other end of the spectrum. Our guest today 00:08:26.110 --> 00:08:30.129 is Dick Thompson, who is the chief counsel of 00:08:30.129 --> 00:08:33.110 the Thomas Moore Law Center here in Ann Arbor. 00:08:33.809 --> 00:08:36.450 And they, the Thomas Moore Law Center, has taken 00:08:36.450 --> 00:08:40.470 on the case for Lieutenant Colonel Ciasani. And 00:08:40.470 --> 00:08:45.649 Lieutenant Colonel Ciasani is about to go. go 00:08:45.649 --> 00:08:49.370 before a Article 32 board, I believe it is, by 00:08:49.370 --> 00:08:52.450 the end of the month. And so anyway, you've taken 00:08:52.450 --> 00:08:54.250 on this case, and Dick, I want to welcome you 00:08:54.250 --> 00:08:56.350 to Veterans Radio. Thank you. It's a pleasure 00:08:56.350 --> 00:08:58.690 to be here. And maybe you can kind of fill us 00:08:58.690 --> 00:09:00.450 in a little bit more on the background of this 00:09:00.450 --> 00:09:03.330 case. Sure. As you indicated, the incident occurred 00:09:03.330 --> 00:09:07.529 on November 19, 2005. At about 7 .15 a .m., this 00:09:07.529 --> 00:09:09.950 Marine convoy was going through Haditha. Now, 00:09:09.950 --> 00:09:12.309 you have to understand, Haditha is an insurgent 00:09:13.100 --> 00:09:18.980 stronghold. This is in Albar province. Suddenly 00:09:18.980 --> 00:09:23.179 an IED roadside bomb went off underneath one 00:09:23.179 --> 00:09:26.460 of the Humvees. It killed one of the Marines, 00:09:26.620 --> 00:09:29.740 injured two others, and simultaneously as soon 00:09:29.740 --> 00:09:32.720 as that explosion occurred the Marine convoy 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:36.320 started to get fire from nearby civilian homes. 00:09:37.220 --> 00:09:39.419 and uh... the marines did what they were trained 00:09:39.419 --> 00:09:43.500 to do uh... they got out of their vehicles and 00:09:43.500 --> 00:09:46.600 a lieutenant shortly came up and told the marine 00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:50.879 squad to take the houses and a four -man squad 00:09:50.879 --> 00:09:55.139 went into these three houses that they were getting 00:09:55.139 --> 00:10:00.080 fire from uh... and they went room to room and 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:02.639 did what they were trained to do. That is, they 00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:05.960 threw a hand grenade in, and once the hand grenade 00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:07.899 exploded, they'd go in there and spray the room. 00:10:07.940 --> 00:10:10.700 Now, I have three sons and they play video games. 00:10:11.100 --> 00:10:14.539 That's the way they take care of homes in these 00:10:14.539 --> 00:10:17.799 war games that they play. They did this in several 00:10:17.799 --> 00:10:20.320 rooms. They went to the next house, did the same 00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:24.179 thing. As a result of this house clearing operation, 00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:27.600 there were 24 Iraqis that were ultimately killed. 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:34.970 15 of them were civilians. Now everyone understands 00:10:34.970 --> 00:10:38.909 in the combat zone in Iraq that the insurgents, 00:10:39.029 --> 00:10:43.289 the terrorists, make use of civilian populated 00:10:43.289 --> 00:10:45.850 areas as their cover, whether they're firing 00:10:45.850 --> 00:10:50.090 from mosques, schools. houses and they realize 00:10:50.090 --> 00:10:52.090 that the marines are going to defend themselves 00:10:52.090 --> 00:10:56.169 and return fire and as soon as any uh... civilian 00:10:56.169 --> 00:10:58.730 is killed and they use that as a co -propaganda 00:10:58.730 --> 00:11:02.809 machine to you know to give the americans a black 00:11:02.809 --> 00:11:07.210 eye as a result of this uh... i e d that exploded 00:11:07.210 --> 00:11:12.960 it became a signal throughout haditha for insurgent 00:11:12.960 --> 00:11:15.340 attacks. And several attacks were occurring throughout 00:11:15.340 --> 00:11:18.820 that area that Colonel Chassani had command of. 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:22.139 He was the battalion commander of the battalion 00:11:22.139 --> 00:11:25.220 that was stationed in Haditha. In addition to 00:11:25.220 --> 00:11:28.200 about a thousand American troops he had, he had 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:30.899 an additional thousand Iraqi troops as well. 00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:34.279 So he was, as a commander, he was monitoring 00:11:34.279 --> 00:11:40.519 the situation and ordering his troops. interestingly 00:11:40.519 --> 00:11:49.039 enough as let me jump forward in December of 00:11:49.039 --> 00:11:54.500 this year he was in December of 2006 they ultimately 00:11:54.500 --> 00:11:57.399 concluded a report and he was charged with two 00:11:57.399 --> 00:12:02.960 offenses one of the offenses was failure to investigate 00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:07.519 the incident that occurred on November 19th and 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:12.509 the second a charge was failure to properly brief 00:12:12.509 --> 00:12:16.929 his upper -echelon command as to what occurred. 00:12:18.070 --> 00:12:19.870 Now those are the two charges against him. If 00:12:19.870 --> 00:12:23.149 he is convicted, he faces a possible three years 00:12:23.149 --> 00:12:29.970 in prison, dismissal from the Marines, and loss 00:12:29.970 --> 00:12:33.110 of all of his retirement. Now he's a 19 -year 00:12:33.110 --> 00:12:37.320 Marine veteran. He served in the Persian Gulf 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:40.639 War. He served in Panama. He's had three tours 00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:45.759 in Iraq and now his entire career is going to 00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:48.200 be wiped out and the livelihood. He has five 00:12:48.200 --> 00:12:50.539 young children. I wanted to say that because 00:12:50.539 --> 00:12:53.960 I want to now go back to the scene. What was 00:12:53.960 --> 00:12:59.200 interesting is that immediately upon receiving 00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:04.639 the attack on November 19th, radio communications 00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:07.720 as you know would go back and forth what they 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:12.460 also had was an unmanned drone that was launched 00:13:12.460 --> 00:13:17.659 immediately by division to cover the scene and 00:13:17.659 --> 00:13:24.320 so immediately as this event was folding the 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:27.259 upper echelon knew what was going on they were 00:13:27.259 --> 00:13:29.899 monitoring the radio traffic they were seeing 00:13:29.899 --> 00:13:33.470 it with unmanned drones what was going on And 00:13:33.470 --> 00:13:37.309 the reports were going through the line. The 00:13:37.309 --> 00:13:41.230 next day, Colonel Ciasani visited the scene, 00:13:41.669 --> 00:13:47.330 looked at it. All of his staff, his intelligence 00:13:47.330 --> 00:13:49.970 officer, the lieutenants on the scene, the company 00:13:49.970 --> 00:13:53.990 commanders on the scene, indicated what had occurred. 00:13:54.389 --> 00:13:58.909 And the civilian deaths were an unfortunate aspect 00:13:58.909 --> 00:14:03.259 of the Marines defending themselves. No problem. 00:14:03.740 --> 00:14:06.840 No investigation occurred at that time until 00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:11.980 Time magazine several months later Get some information 00:14:11.980 --> 00:14:16.039 from an Iraqi who we now know was an insurgent 00:14:16.039 --> 00:14:21.139 operative and Says there was a massacre Time 00:14:21.139 --> 00:14:24.320 magazine reporter a guy by the name of McGurk 00:14:24.509 --> 00:14:28.289 sends a communique to the Marine Command saying, 00:14:28.450 --> 00:14:30.990 I've got these questions. The Marine Command 00:14:30.990 --> 00:14:33.970 sends the questions down to Chassani. Chassani 00:14:33.970 --> 00:14:38.649 responds to the questions and Time Magazine leads 00:14:38.649 --> 00:14:43.929 off with the story, Haditha Massacre. As soon 00:14:43.929 --> 00:14:50.669 as that story is led that way, the upper echelon, 00:14:50.710 --> 00:14:54.149 not the Marine Command but the overall general, 00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:59.519 General Chiarelli asked for an investigation. 00:15:01.379 --> 00:15:03.059 I want to reintroduce, make sure people know 00:15:03.059 --> 00:15:04.960 what we're talking about here. And we're talking 00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:07.019 with Dick Thompson, who is the chief counsel 00:15:07.019 --> 00:15:10.039 for the Thomas Moore Law Center, who has taken 00:15:10.039 --> 00:15:13.039 on the case for Lieutenant Colonel Ciasani. And 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:17.059 what's going on is we're investigating the collateral 00:15:17.059 --> 00:15:20.159 damage or massacre at Haditha back in November 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:23.559 of 2005. One of the questions I wanted to ask 00:15:23.559 --> 00:15:26.279 you is, in one of the articles I was reading, 00:15:27.539 --> 00:15:30.059 is that there were people on the ground almost 00:15:30.059 --> 00:15:34.100 immediately after this conflict, which is what 00:15:34.100 --> 00:15:35.379 you do in the military. I mean, you always have 00:15:35.379 --> 00:15:38.940 to fill in after -action reports and that they, 00:15:38.940 --> 00:15:40.320 you know, that they saw that there were civilians 00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:42.960 involved and they immediately, you know, did 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:45.120 whatever they had to do to take care of them 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:47.580 and the wounded and so forth, but that all of 00:15:47.580 --> 00:15:49.340 these reports were going up and that it does 00:15:49.340 --> 00:15:51.980 turn out that this drone was taking videotapes 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:56.019 of this entire incident. Although that just came 00:15:56.019 --> 00:16:00.500 to light very recently. Yes, in fact it was within 00:16:00.500 --> 00:16:04.200 the last month the two lawyers that we have assigned 00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:07.639 to this case actually went down to Camp Pendleton. 00:16:08.029 --> 00:16:12.629 and saw the video still classified, saw the classified 00:16:12.629 --> 00:16:15.669 video. There are a lot of strange things that's 00:16:15.669 --> 00:16:18.230 happening in this case. I mean, I don't like 00:16:18.230 --> 00:16:20.850 to have a conspiratorial theory out here, but 00:16:20.850 --> 00:16:24.009 basically I think this whole investigation has 00:16:24.009 --> 00:16:28.250 been politicized and it's been done to harm the 00:16:28.250 --> 00:16:31.490 ability of not only the Marines, but every combat 00:16:31.490 --> 00:16:37.620 officer and soldier uh... fighting the war in 00:16:37.620 --> 00:16:40.860 iraq because now what they have to do is every 00:16:40.860 --> 00:16:43.899 time they fire they have to see hey am i going 00:16:43.899 --> 00:16:46.379 to be investigated for a crime you might as well 00:16:46.379 --> 00:16:51.139 have a a lawyer beside every combat soldier to 00:16:51.139 --> 00:16:52.840 tell them okay you can shoot and this is what 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:54.639 you can shoot at i mean i looked at the rules 00:16:54.639 --> 00:16:58.120 of engagement and i it is outrageous if we had 00:16:58.120 --> 00:17:00.179 those rules of engagement in world war two we 00:17:00.179 --> 00:17:02.220 would have lost world war two right i mean though 00:17:02.220 --> 00:17:05.390 you ike you know i was a young I don't want to 00:17:05.390 --> 00:17:07.769 give away my age either. Age became a problem 00:17:07.769 --> 00:17:10.670 here. But I was at Fort Benning, Georgia for 00:17:10.670 --> 00:17:13.710 two years in a basic officer infantry course 00:17:13.710 --> 00:17:16.450 there. We didn't have anything about rules of 00:17:16.450 --> 00:17:19.170 engagement at that time. I mean, we were taught. 00:17:19.450 --> 00:17:21.569 To fight and defeat the enemy. We didn't have 00:17:21.569 --> 00:17:23.769 to look at, you know, can I fire here or can 00:17:23.769 --> 00:17:27.089 I fire there? The rules of engagement used to 00:17:27.089 --> 00:17:29.309 be if somebody shot at you, you shot back. Right. 00:17:29.470 --> 00:17:36.490 But now we're making our combat soldiers afraid 00:17:36.490 --> 00:17:39.210 to defend themselves. And that's why I say this 00:17:39.210 --> 00:17:43.390 case is a lot bigger than merely some Marines 00:17:43.390 --> 00:17:46.210 being charged and some officers careers being 00:17:46.210 --> 00:17:51.220 ruined. It is going to impact. the way our military 00:17:51.220 --> 00:17:54.019 can respond and I think that we have to change 00:17:54.019 --> 00:17:56.480 the total environment of these rules of engagement 00:17:56.480 --> 00:18:00.180 because if soldiers cannot react in combat the 00:18:00.180 --> 00:18:02.980 way they are trained to do. If they cannot fire 00:18:02.980 --> 00:18:05.339 upon the enemy when they're fired upon, then 00:18:05.339 --> 00:18:07.859 pretty soon we are not going to be able to defend 00:18:07.859 --> 00:18:11.720 ourselves and fight an effective campaign. That's 00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:14.440 what's happening here. In fact, Stars and Stripes 00:18:14.440 --> 00:18:17.940 had an article a few weeks ago where there are 00:18:17.940 --> 00:18:21.880 some Marines now patrolling the streets of Haditha, 00:18:22.259 --> 00:18:25.680 wearing video cameras on their helmet that they've 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:28.599 gotten themselves so that if they fire back, 00:18:28.859 --> 00:18:31.779 they have some proof that they were firing in 00:18:31.779 --> 00:18:33.859 self -defense. That's how bad it's gotten. We've 00:18:33.859 --> 00:18:36.579 talked to a number of Iraqi veterans who have 00:18:36.579 --> 00:18:40.200 complained about that same problem, and that 00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:42.220 they have to think about it. The problem is that 00:18:42.220 --> 00:18:44.079 when you get yourself into a combat situation, 00:18:44.140 --> 00:18:47.940 if you hesitate, you're dead. Correct. And that's 00:18:47.940 --> 00:18:50.099 the issue. I did want to just kind of go back 00:18:50.099 --> 00:18:52.160 quickly, and you mentioned the two lawyers from 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:54.400 the Thomas Moore Law Center that are covering 00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:56.619 the case. Those are both Iraqi veterans themselves, 00:18:56.799 --> 00:18:59.440 aren't they? Yes. First of all, both of them 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:03.220 are former Marine officers. Rob Muse was a Marine 00:19:03.220 --> 00:19:05.819 infantry officer. And then during his stay in 00:19:05.819 --> 00:19:09.059 the Marines, the Marines actually sent him to 00:19:09.059 --> 00:19:11.599 law school. And then once he got out, he became 00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:16.029 a JAG officer. and he was a veteran of the first 00:19:16.029 --> 00:19:21.130 Persian Gulf War. Brian Rooney is a JAG officer. 00:19:21.450 --> 00:19:25.250 He served seven months in Iraq. He was there 00:19:25.250 --> 00:19:29.299 just last year. And so he's very familiar with, 00:19:29.500 --> 00:19:31.619 he was involved with the Fallujah campaign. He's 00:19:31.619 --> 00:19:35.700 very familiar with the rules of engagement and 00:19:35.700 --> 00:19:39.700 what they tell their Marines, which is totally 00:19:39.700 --> 00:19:43.019 different now than what is coming down from headquarters. 00:19:43.180 --> 00:19:45.380 In fact, headquarters, as a result of the Haditha 00:19:45.380 --> 00:19:47.400 case, have changed their rules of engagement, 00:19:47.779 --> 00:19:52.799 making it even worse. Before, if you received 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:56.779 hostile fire, you could fire back now you have 00:19:56.779 --> 00:20:00.000 to positively identify the person before you 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:02.079 fire back and you know a lot of time that's not 00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:04.460 you can't do that you know you're the fire is 00:20:04.460 --> 00:20:06.500 coming from the house you don't know who else 00:20:06.500 --> 00:20:09.640 is in the house beside the person firing at you 00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:12.200 is that does that mean you can't fire back so 00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:17.460 it is it is a ludicrous implications here of 00:20:17.460 --> 00:20:21.640 what is happening not only to the officers and 00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:25.000 let me tell you The officers that are being charged, 00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:29.450 I've looked at their evaluation reports. They 00:20:29.450 --> 00:20:32.069 were all scheduled for higher command positions. 00:20:32.710 --> 00:20:36.309 Outstanding evaluation reports. The four Marines 00:20:36.309 --> 00:20:39.089 that were charged, I mean, their lives are ruined. 00:20:39.309 --> 00:20:40.990 Their families don't have money. Their families 00:20:40.990 --> 00:20:43.829 are trying to get funds to hire these lawyers. 00:20:43.990 --> 00:20:45.750 Now, the Thomas Moore Law Center is a public 00:20:45.750 --> 00:20:48.410 interest law firm, and so we can give our services 00:20:48.410 --> 00:20:53.029 to Chisani without charge. But this is destroying 00:20:53.029 --> 00:20:55.950 the lives of Marines who thought they were doing 00:20:55.950 --> 00:21:01.190 the right thing. It is clear that once this investigation 00:21:01.190 --> 00:21:07.509 started, these are marine personnel, the army 00:21:07.509 --> 00:21:11.109 conducted the investigation. An army colonel 00:21:11.109 --> 00:21:13.890 cleared the marines. That wasn't good enough. 00:21:14.190 --> 00:21:17.450 So they brought in a general, an army general 00:21:17.450 --> 00:21:20.849 who then... conducted an investigation, and it 00:21:20.849 --> 00:21:23.730 was based upon the investigation of the Army 00:21:23.730 --> 00:21:28.029 General that these chargers were levied. But 00:21:28.029 --> 00:21:31.210 let me tell you, and the Army General's report 00:21:31.210 --> 00:21:35.509 is yet classified, but I'm going to talk about 00:21:35.509 --> 00:21:38.569 it in this sense because someone's leaked the 00:21:38.569 --> 00:21:41.619 General's report to the Washington Post And if 00:21:41.619 --> 00:21:44.880 you read carefully what the Washington Post says, 00:21:45.299 --> 00:21:47.759 the report said, not with their characterization, 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:51.420 but what the report says, it says, number one, 00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:54.579 there was no intentional killing of any civilians. 00:21:54.579 --> 00:22:00.279 That's what it found. Secondly, Colonel Ciasani 00:22:00.279 --> 00:22:04.299 and the officers repeated everything that happened 00:22:04.299 --> 00:22:07.880 and up the chain of command. So the report itself 00:22:07.880 --> 00:22:11.940 would have cleared Ciasani, and these Marines. 00:22:12.680 --> 00:22:16.200 But that's still classified. Nevertheless, these 00:22:16.200 --> 00:22:19.460 Marines were charged. I think they were charged 00:22:19.460 --> 00:22:23.700 for political reasons. Before the report was 00:22:23.700 --> 00:22:26.660 even completed, before the charges were even 00:22:26.660 --> 00:22:29.220 levied, you had Congressman John Murtha from 00:22:29.220 --> 00:22:34.839 Pennsylvania in May come out publicly and accuse 00:22:34.839 --> 00:22:39.299 the Marines of cold -blooded murder and the officers 00:22:39.299 --> 00:22:42.220 of covering it up. This is a congressman. A former 00:22:42.220 --> 00:22:45.279 marine general. He was a colonel. He was a former 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:48.859 colonel. I'd like to see his record, but anyway, 00:22:50.279 --> 00:22:54.220 he accused these officers of covering it up and 00:22:54.220 --> 00:22:58.819 the marine combat troops of cold -blooded murder. 00:22:59.860 --> 00:23:03.500 What that means, in one sense, and Lieutenant 00:23:03.500 --> 00:23:06.480 General McInerney from the Air Force and Air 00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:10.339 Force Chief of Staff, opined that when Murtha 00:23:10.339 --> 00:23:14.220 said that, that tainted the entire criminal prosecution 00:23:14.220 --> 00:23:17.240 because there is undue command influence. Because 00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:20.240 Murtha said he got it from a high -ranking Marine 00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:23.220 general. So right away, everyone in the chain 00:23:23.220 --> 00:23:25.039 of command knows, hey, the general thinks these 00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:27.910 guys are, or thinks the general... thinks these 00:23:27.910 --> 00:23:30.990 guys are guilty of cold -blooded murder, so I 00:23:30.990 --> 00:23:32.849 better watch what I do in the court -martial. 00:23:33.349 --> 00:23:35.990 This thing stinks to high heaven. Well, we're 00:23:35.990 --> 00:23:38.430 going to go into more detail about that in a 00:23:38.430 --> 00:23:40.210 little bit. We're coming up on a break at the 00:23:40.210 --> 00:23:42.690 bottom of the hour, and we're talking with Dick 00:23:42.690 --> 00:23:45.029 Thompson of the Thomas Moore Law Center, and 00:23:45.029 --> 00:23:47.990 we're investigating the supposed shootings and 00:23:47.990 --> 00:23:51.269 massacres in Haditha in Iraq in November of 2005. 00:23:51.730 --> 00:23:53.470 We'll be right back. You're listening to Veterans 00:23:53.470 --> 00:23:59.710 Radio. of honors the highest award for valor 00:23:59.710 --> 00:24:01.670 in combat given a member of the armed forces 00:24:01.670 --> 00:24:04.650 of the United States. There had been over 3 ,400 00:24:04.650 --> 00:24:07.750 recipients of the nation's highest award. This 00:24:07.750 --> 00:24:10.710 is one of them. Staff Sergeant Homer Wise's platoon 00:24:10.710 --> 00:24:14.150 was pinned down four times. Each time, Wise led 00:24:14.150 --> 00:24:17.490 a breakout of the platoon. While his platoon 00:24:17.490 --> 00:24:19.769 was pinned down by enemy small arms fire from 00:24:19.769 --> 00:24:22.950 both flanks, he left his position of comparative 00:24:22.950 --> 00:24:25.230 safety and assisted in carrying one of his men. 00:24:25.400 --> 00:24:27.579 who had been seriously wounded and who lay in 00:24:27.579 --> 00:24:30.059 an exposed position, to a point where he could 00:24:30.059 --> 00:24:33.039 receive medical attention. The advance of the 00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:35.259 platoon was resumed, but it was again stopped 00:24:35.259 --> 00:24:38.700 by enemy frontal fire. A German officer and two 00:24:38.700 --> 00:24:41.619 enlisted men, armed with automatic weapons, threatened 00:24:41.619 --> 00:24:45.140 the right flank. Fearlessly exposing himself, 00:24:45.740 --> 00:24:47.539 Weiss moved to a position from which he killed 00:24:47.539 --> 00:24:50.500 all three with his submachine gun. Returning 00:24:50.500 --> 00:24:53.759 to his squad, he obtained an M1 rifle. and several 00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:56.099 anti -tank grenades, then took up a position 00:24:56.099 --> 00:24:58.259 from which he delivered accurate fire on the 00:24:58.259 --> 00:25:01.720 enemy, holding up the advance. As the battalion 00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:04.440 moved forward, it was again stopped by enemy 00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:07.619 frontal and flanking fire. Weiss procured an 00:25:07.619 --> 00:25:10.180 automatic rifle and, advancing ahead of his men, 00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:13.019 neutralized an enemy machine gun with his fire. 00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:16.420 When the flanking fire became more intense, he 00:25:16.420 --> 00:25:19.079 ran to a nearby tank and, exposing himself on 00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:21.940 the turret, restored a jammed machine gun to 00:25:21.940 --> 00:25:24.690 operating efficiency and used it so effectively 00:25:24.690 --> 00:25:27.410 that the enemy fire from an adjacent ridge was 00:25:27.410 --> 00:25:30.410 materially reduced, thus permitting the battalion 00:25:30.410 --> 00:25:33.430 to occupy its objective. The Medal of Honor series 00:25:33.430 --> 00:25:37.250 is a production of Veterans Radio. And we're 00:25:37.250 --> 00:25:39.009 back on Veterans Radio and we're talking with 00:25:39.009 --> 00:25:41.549 Dick Thompson, the chief counsel for the Thomas 00:25:41.549 --> 00:25:44.069 Moore Law Center. And Ken, you had a question 00:25:44.069 --> 00:25:47.869 for him. Yes, sir. It sounds to me like these 00:25:47.869 --> 00:25:53.069 charges are... are really false. If you consider 00:25:53.069 --> 00:25:56.650 that they'd have the drone and reporting up the 00:25:56.650 --> 00:25:58.690 chain command and everything, how do these sergeants 00:25:58.690 --> 00:26:01.519 actually come about that well that's a very interesting 00:26:01.519 --> 00:26:04.039 that's why i think it this is all a political 00:26:04.039 --> 00:26:06.740 uh... scapegoating going out of the marine officers 00:26:06.740 --> 00:26:10.319 and the troops that were there because time magazine 00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:12.720 had this article that said you know there was 00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:16.019 a subdued the massacre then the congressman who 00:26:16.019 --> 00:26:18.559 was uh... uh... chair of the subcommittee and 00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:21.799 uh... on uh... military appropriations accuses 00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:25.000 the marines and officers of crimes and so all 00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:27.599 at once there was marching orders to the NCIS 00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:31.619 you better find something wrong they had to substantiate 00:26:31.619 --> 00:26:36.099 what this congressman was saying and to support 00:26:36.099 --> 00:26:39.480 what you said all the way up to a two -star general 00:26:39.480 --> 00:26:42.940 in the Marine Corps had the information and thought 00:26:42.940 --> 00:26:45.240 there was no need for investigation, that there 00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:49.839 were no crimes committed. Yet when the words 00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:54.279 start coming out of the media and also from Congressman 00:26:54.279 --> 00:26:58.220 John Murtha, I think that became the rule for 00:26:58.220 --> 00:27:01.799 the NCIS that they had to go out and find something 00:27:01.799 --> 00:27:06.240 wrong. And this investigation lasted over a year. 00:27:06.579 --> 00:27:11.079 There were over 60 NCIS agents used in the investigation. 00:27:11.779 --> 00:27:15.640 Thousands and thousands of pages of classified 00:27:15.640 --> 00:27:19.680 investigation material were compiled as a result 00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:23.079 of it. And our lawyers, Rob Muse and Brian Rooney, 00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:26.039 are going through those thousands of pages of 00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:28.799 classified information. And we just found that 00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:30.940 there is, they just found some more classified 00:27:30.940 --> 00:27:33.339 information. So they're just kind of leaking 00:27:33.339 --> 00:27:35.799 this stuff out to us. And the more they give 00:27:35.799 --> 00:27:39.539 us, the more clear it is that there was no crime, 00:27:39.559 --> 00:27:43.829 that this is a made up crime. I am so outraged 00:27:43.829 --> 00:27:46.549 by what is happening here. I think most patriotic 00:27:46.549 --> 00:27:49.230 Americans, most veterans would be, maybe the 00:27:49.230 --> 00:27:50.930 veterans might not be stunned, they may have 00:27:50.930 --> 00:27:53.109 had some kind of experience with this before, 00:27:53.650 --> 00:27:57.329 but most Americans would be shocked to see what 00:27:57.329 --> 00:28:00.940 the military is doing to its own. What about 00:28:00.940 --> 00:28:02.920 the Marines that were involved in it and not 00:28:02.920 --> 00:28:04.859 the Colonel but the but there's troops on the 00:28:04.859 --> 00:28:07.180 ground What was the result of their cases their 00:28:07.180 --> 00:28:10.079 their cases have not yet been tried one of the 00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:13.680 four Marines charged the four combat Marines 00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:16.039 that took these houses were charged with murder. 00:28:16.039 --> 00:28:20.880 Mm -hmm unpremeditated murder As a result of 00:28:20.880 --> 00:28:23.420 the investigation going on, and quite frankly 00:28:23.420 --> 00:28:27.539 as a result of our lawyer, Rob Muse, going down 00:28:27.539 --> 00:28:31.039 to Camp Pendleton and taking some sworn video 00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:33.319 tape testimony because several of these marines 00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:36.319 are going back to Iraq, the marine prosecutor 00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:39.480 realized how bad his case was turning out to 00:28:39.480 --> 00:28:42.619 be and just granted one of the four marines charged 00:28:42.619 --> 00:28:46.619 with immunity so that they can try to make a 00:28:46.619 --> 00:28:49.720 case. But even the lawyers that are representing 00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:53.519 the other remaining three think that that's not 00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:55.819 going to help the government's case at all because 00:28:55.819 --> 00:28:58.460 this Marine has given statements before that 00:28:58.460 --> 00:29:01.859 exonerated all of them. It just doesn't make 00:29:01.859 --> 00:29:03.759 sense. It doesn't make sense. There's something, 00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:05.900 as they say, there's something rotten in Denmark 00:29:05.900 --> 00:29:09.519 and hopefully we'll find out. I'm looking at 00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:11.859 an article about this, they dropped the case 00:29:11.859 --> 00:29:15.420 against the Sergeant Dela Cruz just last week 00:29:15.420 --> 00:29:18.700 it looks like. And it's going, although the prosecutors 00:29:18.700 --> 00:29:20.819 say they needed more time to prepare their cases, 00:29:20.980 --> 00:29:23.519 there is much more to the story than has been 00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:25.140 learned. And it paints a shocking picture of 00:29:25.140 --> 00:29:27.819 a prosecution that should never have been pursued. 00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:30.900 Can you tell us a little bit about, I know that 00:29:30.900 --> 00:29:33.039 why Thomas Moore got involved in this was because 00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:36.980 that the NCIS was getting, I don't know, it's 00:29:36.980 --> 00:29:40.130 almost like they were getting rough. with their 00:29:40.130 --> 00:29:43.710 witnesses and trying to get them to answer their 00:29:43.710 --> 00:29:45.950 questions. Could you tell us a little bit about 00:29:45.950 --> 00:29:48.309 what might have occurred with that? Right. We 00:29:48.309 --> 00:29:50.869 started to find this out as our lawyers were 00:29:50.869 --> 00:29:54.809 interrogating witnesses in preparation for the 00:29:54.809 --> 00:29:57.930 Article 32 hearing. And then we took the videotape 00:29:57.930 --> 00:30:02.400 testimony. We were shocked as to what NCIS was 00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:05.119 doing now. I was a also a former prosecuting 00:30:05.119 --> 00:30:07.740 attorney for Oakland County So I pretty much 00:30:07.740 --> 00:30:10.380 know how you how you're supposed to investigate 00:30:10.380 --> 00:30:12.759 How you're supposed to examine witnesses and 00:30:12.759 --> 00:30:16.460 even suspects what we found out that these marine 00:30:16.460 --> 00:30:20.240 Officers and enlisted men were being interrogated 00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:23.500 up to 18 hours at a time When they were asking 00:30:23.500 --> 00:30:28.000 for food and water They weren't being given that 00:30:29.099 --> 00:30:32.700 Marine officers were yelled at. Papers were thrown 00:30:32.700 --> 00:30:37.059 at them. Agents segregated them into dark, dungeon 00:30:37.059 --> 00:30:40.700 -like rooms. Mind you, a lot of this was happening 00:30:40.700 --> 00:30:45.220 in Haditha while there was a combat going on. 00:30:45.980 --> 00:30:51.609 And so we, the officers realized that These NCIS 00:30:51.609 --> 00:30:54.150 agents weren't really looking to find out what 00:30:54.150 --> 00:30:57.430 happened. They had an agenda. And when the officers 00:30:57.430 --> 00:30:59.609 started giving them information that would tend 00:30:59.609 --> 00:31:02.950 to exonerate what these other Marines had done 00:31:02.950 --> 00:31:06.569 in Haditha, the NCI agents weren't interested 00:31:06.569 --> 00:31:08.190 in it. They brushed it off. They said, well, 00:31:08.230 --> 00:31:11.539 we want to get back to this subject matter. So 00:31:11.539 --> 00:31:13.740 in other words, they already had a plan of what 00:31:13.740 --> 00:31:17.740 they wanted. Exactly. So what we did, Dale, is 00:31:17.740 --> 00:31:20.920 just two weeks ago, we sent a letter to the Secretary 00:31:20.920 --> 00:31:24.000 of Navy, Donald Winters, and we asked that he 00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:28.740 conduct an independent investigation into the 00:31:28.740 --> 00:31:32.220 methods and techniques used by the NCIS agents, 00:31:32.660 --> 00:31:36.359 because even while this was occurring, a Marine 00:31:36.359 --> 00:31:40.809 commander went to the senior NCI agent in Haditha 00:31:40.809 --> 00:31:44.089 and complained as to how officers and men were 00:31:44.089 --> 00:31:48.589 being treated by these NCIS agents in the interrogation 00:31:48.589 --> 00:31:51.210 process, and they brushed them aside. So we've 00:31:51.210 --> 00:31:55.450 asked the Navy secretary to conduct an independent 00:31:55.450 --> 00:31:59.390 investigation into this. Now, they haven't contacted 00:31:59.390 --> 00:32:02.670 our office specifically, but they released a 00:32:02.670 --> 00:32:05.130 public statement that they were going to conduct 00:32:05.130 --> 00:32:10.549 an investigation. I don't know. It just seems... 00:32:10.549 --> 00:32:13.650 It's scary when we start doing this. And I'm 00:32:13.650 --> 00:32:15.329 not saying that we shouldn't be investigating 00:32:15.329 --> 00:32:19.690 wanton premeditated murders or even accidental 00:32:19.690 --> 00:32:21.450 murders. We need to investigate them so that 00:32:21.450 --> 00:32:23.549 they don't happen on a regular basis. But it 00:32:23.549 --> 00:32:26.109 just seems like for whatever reason that the... 00:32:26.109 --> 00:32:27.829 I don't want to say the administration, but the 00:32:27.829 --> 00:32:31.349 Pentagon in this case is going overboard to get 00:32:31.349 --> 00:32:33.789 these guys. And this is not the first case of 00:32:33.789 --> 00:32:36.170 this. It seems like a lot of times there's overreaction. 00:32:36.309 --> 00:32:38.549 And I know that the news gets out and it goes 00:32:38.549 --> 00:32:41.670 crazy on one end of the media and they say the 00:32:41.670 --> 00:32:45.109 mass media is doing this and so forth. But when 00:32:45.109 --> 00:32:46.609 you've got congressmen are coming out with their 00:32:46.609 --> 00:32:51.109 own agenda. And I mean, Murtha is head of the 00:32:51.109 --> 00:32:54.049 House, I think it's the House Military Appropriations 00:32:54.049 --> 00:32:56.470 Committee. So I mean, they got to play the political 00:32:56.470 --> 00:32:58.609 game in here. So now you've got people that are 00:32:58.609 --> 00:33:00.390 higher up that who have their careers, their 00:33:00.390 --> 00:33:02.890 generals and so forth. They got to cover their 00:33:02.890 --> 00:33:06.650 backsides. And it's almost like everybody's on 00:33:06.650 --> 00:33:09.269 their own instead of the teamwork that should 00:33:09.269 --> 00:33:13.529 be there. So what you have here is you have a 00:33:13.529 --> 00:33:16.839 insurgent propaganda operative. fulfilling his 00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:20.380 mission, the Marines and the military are doing 00:33:20.380 --> 00:33:23.359 the job for him. They are destroying the combat 00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:26.420 effectiveness of Marines and soldiers in Haditha 00:33:26.420 --> 00:33:30.259 and other places in Iraq by making them so afraid 00:33:30.259 --> 00:33:34.220 to fire their weapons because they may be charged 00:33:34.220 --> 00:33:36.900 later on down the road. I mean, a year later 00:33:36.900 --> 00:33:41.200 they may be charged and facing prison time. So 00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:45.500 they have effectively curtailed the combat. effectiveness 00:33:45.500 --> 00:33:48.940 of our troops. And I just think that this is 00:33:48.940 --> 00:33:52.140 sabotaging the war effort. And I don't know who's 00:33:52.140 --> 00:33:55.180 behind it, but it's clear based upon all of the 00:33:55.180 --> 00:33:58.140 investigation that we have, based upon, as you 00:33:58.140 --> 00:34:01.000 said, Dale, now once they're granting immunity, 00:34:01.500 --> 00:34:04.579 realizing they don't have a case, but yet the 00:34:04.579 --> 00:34:07.640 word is out there on the street, be careful before 00:34:07.640 --> 00:34:10.889 you fire your weapon. And as you know, he who 00:34:10.889 --> 00:34:13.550 hesitates is lost. He who hesitates is dead. 00:34:13.849 --> 00:34:20.110 Right, is dead. Quite clearly. One of the problems, 00:34:20.210 --> 00:34:23.409 among many others out there, is that our troops 00:34:23.409 --> 00:34:24.889 are over there acting as policemen, and they're 00:34:24.889 --> 00:34:26.769 not trained to be policemen. And even though 00:34:26.769 --> 00:34:28.409 we've been doing it for four years now, we're 00:34:28.409 --> 00:34:32.030 still not... There is no way that you can react 00:34:32.030 --> 00:34:34.289 to this. I mean, we have police on the streets 00:34:34.289 --> 00:34:38.949 of major cities in our own country. that if they're 00:34:38.949 --> 00:34:43.570 shot at, they can't return fire. So it ends up 00:34:43.570 --> 00:34:45.170 with the thing is these guys now are wearing 00:34:45.170 --> 00:34:49.269 dash cameras on their heads. First of all, the 00:34:49.269 --> 00:34:51.840 Marines are trained that... You have to look 00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:55.960 at every civilian with a degree of suspicion. 00:34:56.380 --> 00:34:58.119 Oh, absolutely. Because they're strapping bombs 00:34:58.119 --> 00:35:02.760 to young kids. Women are strapping bombs to themselves. 00:35:03.380 --> 00:35:06.480 And so on the one hand, they're trained to be 00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:09.760 wary of everybody. Because as you say, they're 00:35:09.760 --> 00:35:11.960 now policemen. They're not combat soldiers. They're 00:35:11.960 --> 00:35:14.800 walking and patrolling the streets. There was 00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:17.119 one incident that occurred just before then. 00:35:18.119 --> 00:35:20.480 and I'm not sure it was in the Haditha province 00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:23.579 or not, where this Marine went into a hospital 00:35:23.579 --> 00:35:26.739 without taking the appropriate precautions, this 00:35:26.739 --> 00:35:31.019 Marine squad, and went into this place where 00:35:31.019 --> 00:35:34.360 there were a bunch of beds. Men were lying in 00:35:34.360 --> 00:35:37.480 the beds, and these men were insurgents, and 00:35:37.480 --> 00:35:42.179 they jumped up and fired their automatic weapons, 00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:46.070 killed eight Marines. time after time after time 00:35:46.070 --> 00:35:49.690 you see what seems to be an innocent situation 00:35:49.690 --> 00:35:52.570 developing into an attack on marines where our 00:35:52.570 --> 00:35:56.269 soldiers are being killed and and this kind of 00:35:56.269 --> 00:36:00.690 prosecution uh... ties the hands limits the ability 00:36:00.690 --> 00:36:04.190 of not only soldiers on the ground but even commanders 00:36:04.190 --> 00:36:05.829 you know if you're gonna spend all your time 00:36:05.829 --> 00:36:08.309 now doing investigations every time a civilian 00:36:08.309 --> 00:36:11.190 is killed well you know we're we're gonna we're 00:36:11.190 --> 00:36:13.789 gonna have a paper army that can't fight a war 00:36:13.789 --> 00:36:15.510 they're just going to be doing investigations 00:36:15.510 --> 00:36:17.489 absolutely we're gonna take another break right 00:36:17.489 --> 00:36:19.309 now we'll be back in just a moment you're listening 00:36:19.309 --> 00:36:25.969 to veterans radio And we're back on Veterans 00:36:25.969 --> 00:36:29.030 Radio, and we are talking with Dick Thompson, 00:36:29.289 --> 00:36:31.210 who is the chief counsel for the Thomas Moore 00:36:31.210 --> 00:36:33.309 Law Center, and we're talking about a case involving 00:36:33.309 --> 00:36:36.909 Lieutenant Colonel Ciasani, who is being accused 00:36:36.909 --> 00:36:40.690 of covering up a conflict or supposed massacre 00:36:40.690 --> 00:36:43.690 that occurred in Haditha, Iraq, in November of 00:36:43.690 --> 00:36:47.829 2005. Dick, where do we go from here? I mean, 00:36:47.909 --> 00:36:50.789 right now, they're coming up on an essence, a 00:36:50.789 --> 00:36:53.030 grand jury investigation of Chisani, which is 00:36:53.030 --> 00:36:56.889 the Article 32. But their case is kind of crumbling 00:36:56.889 --> 00:36:59.789 around them. Where do you see it going? Well, 00:36:59.789 --> 00:37:02.449 as you say, the Article 32 is the first stage. 00:37:02.550 --> 00:37:06.050 Now, that is scheduled to begin on May 30th in 00:37:06.050 --> 00:37:11.489 Camp Pendleton, California. We know it'll start. 00:37:12.440 --> 00:37:16.739 But as I indicated earlier, because new information 00:37:16.739 --> 00:37:20.260 is being dropped on us, new classified information 00:37:20.260 --> 00:37:22.559 is being declassified so we can take a look at 00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:25.800 it, although the Article 32 starts, it may go 00:37:25.800 --> 00:37:28.900 longer than the two weeks we planned for it to 00:37:28.900 --> 00:37:32.079 go. Once the Article 32 hearing is complete, 00:37:32.360 --> 00:37:34.820 the investigating officer then will make his 00:37:34.820 --> 00:37:38.519 recommendation to the general. And then the general 00:37:38.519 --> 00:37:41.300 has some time within which he can either accept 00:37:41.300 --> 00:37:45.250 the recommendation or reject the recommendation. 00:37:45.510 --> 00:37:47.349 For instance, if the investigating officer says, 00:37:47.789 --> 00:37:51.030 I don't find any crime here, the commanding general 00:37:51.030 --> 00:37:54.449 can still say, yes, I do, and schedule a courts 00:37:54.449 --> 00:37:57.130 martial, which would then begin several months 00:37:57.130 --> 00:38:00.230 thereafter. So this process is going to go on 00:38:00.230 --> 00:38:03.070 for a long period of time. It's going to begin 00:38:03.070 --> 00:38:07.429 on May the 30th. Now, Colonel Ciasani is the 00:38:07.429 --> 00:38:12.420 first officer I believe is the first officer 00:38:12.420 --> 00:38:16.460 who's going to have his Article 32 hearing begin, 00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:20.480 so May 30th. And as new investigative material 00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:25.980 comes in, we don't know. Maybe the prosecution 00:38:25.980 --> 00:38:29.659 will dump the case, but I doubt it. Well, if 00:38:29.659 --> 00:38:33.289 the general can override... the investigating 00:38:33.289 --> 00:38:36.489 officer's decision. Why have the Article 32? 00:38:37.070 --> 00:38:39.989 I'm not an expert on the military justice system, 00:38:40.329 --> 00:38:43.230 but that's the way the military is. Obviously, 00:38:44.530 --> 00:38:48.090 it's unique in the sense that dereliction of 00:38:48.090 --> 00:38:51.210 duty is one of the charges that's where he failed 00:38:51.210 --> 00:38:55.110 to properly investigate. It's a military charge 00:38:55.110 --> 00:38:57.590 more than what we would see in the criminal justice 00:38:57.590 --> 00:39:01.599 system in a civilian world. You know, it's a 00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:05.059 subjective thing in many respects. One of the 00:39:05.059 --> 00:39:09.099 things that I think is a defense that people 00:39:09.099 --> 00:39:12.820 will be surprised with, in the military system 00:39:12.820 --> 00:39:15.460 where there is a dereliction of duty charge, 00:39:16.199 --> 00:39:20.619 the outstanding military character of the defendant 00:39:20.619 --> 00:39:25.000 can finesse that charge. And we do know that 00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:29.250 Colonel Chissani had an outstanding military 00:39:29.250 --> 00:39:33.010 character and reputation. His evaluation reports 00:39:33.010 --> 00:39:37.750 were superb. In fact, the commanding general 00:39:37.750 --> 00:39:40.469 signed off on his evaluation reports. This is 00:39:40.469 --> 00:39:43.989 after the Adifa matter occurred, saying that 00:39:43.989 --> 00:39:48.849 this man is ready for higher command. He should 00:39:48.849 --> 00:39:53.289 be sent to a TLS top -level school, the Navy 00:39:53.289 --> 00:39:57.159 War College. It was clear that Colonel Ciasani 00:39:57.159 --> 00:40:03.199 was on the path to a general's star until this 00:40:03.199 --> 00:40:07.179 prosecution occurred. Assuming that he is found 00:40:07.179 --> 00:40:10.340 not guilty, what will that do to his military 00:40:10.340 --> 00:40:12.500 career, just having this charge against him? 00:40:12.519 --> 00:40:15.679 You know, I asked our lawyers that because they're 00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:19.760 involved in JAG when they were in the military 00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:23.650 service. And one of the lawyers pointed to me, 00:40:23.650 --> 00:40:26.510 remember the tail hook controversy? One of the 00:40:26.510 --> 00:40:28.809 officers in the tail hook controversy became 00:40:28.809 --> 00:40:32.130 a general. So it doesn't necessarily, or an admiral, 00:40:32.389 --> 00:40:34.570 doesn't necessarily mean he can't reach that 00:40:34.570 --> 00:40:38.250 position. But it certainly is something he has 00:40:38.250 --> 00:40:40.530 to overcome. It's a mark against him. It's a 00:40:40.530 --> 00:40:43.940 mark against him. I would think so. Dick, I wanted 00:40:43.940 --> 00:40:46.739 to ask you a little bit more about the Thomas 00:40:46.739 --> 00:40:50.340 More Law Center, and I know how you got involved 00:40:50.340 --> 00:40:52.780 in this case, but what else type of cases are 00:40:52.780 --> 00:40:55.780 you involved in? Well, we are a 501c3 corporation, 00:40:56.099 --> 00:40:58.820 and basically what we get involved in is religious 00:40:58.820 --> 00:41:01.179 freedom of Christians, time -honored family values, 00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:04.400 and the sanctity of human life. In more generic 00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:08.280 terms, we attempt to preserve America. by defending 00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:11.119 its uh... christian heritage and moral values 00:41:11.119 --> 00:41:13.460 we've gotten involved in cases like the mount 00:41:13.460 --> 00:41:15.179 soledad cross i don't know if you're familiar 00:41:15.179 --> 00:41:17.880 with that case that was a forty three -foot cross 00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:20.079 that was a centerpiece of a veterans memorial 00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:23.219 in san diego california where the a c l u filed 00:41:23.219 --> 00:41:26.219 a lawsuit saying take down the cross it's a religious 00:41:26.219 --> 00:41:29.300 symbol in the city was ready to do it after a 00:41:29.300 --> 00:41:32.079 fifteen -year uh... battle in the thomas more 00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:36.389 uh... thomas more law center came in and um... 00:41:36.389 --> 00:41:38.670 stopped it. We saved the cross. There's a recent 00:41:38.670 --> 00:41:40.710 case that I was reading about in the news this 00:41:40.710 --> 00:41:43.489 morning about another case in California where 00:41:43.489 --> 00:41:46.199 they're asking a history teacher of 30 years 00:41:46.199 --> 00:41:48.780 or so to take down banners that he had in his 00:41:48.780 --> 00:41:50.880 room like you know all men are created equal 00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:54.400 and in God We trust yes, that was a case where 00:41:54.400 --> 00:41:57.900 This teacher Brad Johnson had been a school teacher 00:41:57.900 --> 00:42:00.500 for many many years He had these banners up for 00:42:00.500 --> 00:42:03.460 over 20 years. They said things like in God we 00:42:03.460 --> 00:42:06.840 trust God bless America No one ever complained 00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:09.679 about it for all the 20 years he had it up until 00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:12.219 this year when this principal said take it down 00:42:12.219 --> 00:42:14.860 because it has a particular religious viewpoint. 00:42:15.900 --> 00:42:19.420 And after negotiations with the principal, they 00:42:19.420 --> 00:42:22.780 wouldn't budge. And so we filed a lawsuit on 00:42:22.780 --> 00:42:25.139 his behalf in the district court, federal district 00:42:25.139 --> 00:42:27.219 court in California. And where does that stand 00:42:27.219 --> 00:42:30.059 now? Well, the lawsuit was just filed, so it's 00:42:30.059 --> 00:42:34.449 a long way. If we don't pay attention nobody 00:42:34.449 --> 00:42:37.489 will I guess it seems out there, you know, it's 00:42:37.489 --> 00:42:40.150 just some of these things are so outrageous Well, 00:42:40.190 --> 00:42:42.050 you know Abraham Lincoln said, you know, if we're 00:42:42.050 --> 00:42:44.250 gonna be defeated it's not gonna be some foreign 00:42:44.250 --> 00:42:46.650 army from across the ocean We're gonna defeat 00:42:46.650 --> 00:42:49.630 ourselves. We're gonna die by suicide and it 00:42:49.630 --> 00:42:52.989 seems that that That kind of thing is happening 00:42:52.989 --> 00:42:56.760 in America more and more and Pogo said I've seen 00:42:56.760 --> 00:43:00.500 the enemy, they is us. Yes. Well, we just all 00:43:00.500 --> 00:43:02.599 have to pay attention. One of the advantages 00:43:02.599 --> 00:43:05.400 of living in this great country is that we do 00:43:05.400 --> 00:43:08.579 have such a diversity of opinion and what we 00:43:08.579 --> 00:43:10.380 think is right and what we think is wrong, but 00:43:10.380 --> 00:43:12.539 at least we can say it and nobody's going to 00:43:12.539 --> 00:43:16.219 come to you and you're not going to just disappear. 00:43:16.619 --> 00:43:18.929 Right. uh... like in so many other places well 00:43:18.929 --> 00:43:20.789 for more information how would people get a hold 00:43:20.789 --> 00:43:23.090 of of thomas more well they can visit our website 00:43:23.090 --> 00:43:27.710 it's uh... w w w dot thomas more dot org there's 00:43:27.710 --> 00:43:32.110 one oh and more and uh... if they have any information 00:43:32.110 --> 00:43:35.389 uh... please feel free to contact us you rob 00:43:35.389 --> 00:43:38.969 use or uh... brian rooney at area code seven 00:43:38.969 --> 00:43:42.789 three four eight two seven two zero zero one 00:43:42.940 --> 00:43:45.760 Okay, and we will get that put a link up on our 00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:48.099 website for people to get that from the veterans 00:43:48.099 --> 00:43:51.360 radio site and Please keep us posted on the status 00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:53.659 of this case. We're very interested in this we'll 00:43:53.659 --> 00:43:55.940 do we'll do appreciate it very much dick Thank 00:43:55.940 --> 00:43:57.880 you very much for being on veterans radio my 00:43:57.880 --> 00:44:00.960 pleasure. Thank you. Thank you We got another 00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:04.179 big show coming up next. Yes, sir. Oh, yes, sir. 00:44:04.239 --> 00:44:06.480 We do Yeah, it's one that I've been looking forward 00:44:06.480 --> 00:44:11.360 to for many months Colonel Bud Day is the most 00:44:11.360 --> 00:44:14.559 decorated officer in the United States. He holds 00:44:14.559 --> 00:44:17.940 every combat medal from the Medal of Honor on 00:44:17.940 --> 00:44:20.659 down. And he spent five and a half years in a 00:44:20.659 --> 00:44:25.360 POW camp. He was a cellmate of John McCain and 00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:30.260 he went on to help the retirees retain their 00:44:30.260 --> 00:44:32.579 medical benefits because the government wanted 00:44:32.579 --> 00:44:35.139 to cut off the medical benefits at the age 65 00:44:35.139 --> 00:44:37.880 and saying, hey, just go on Medicare. And he 00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:41.460 fought the battle and he lost the lawsuit but 00:44:41.460 --> 00:44:44.579 he won the battle because Congress passed the 00:44:44.579 --> 00:44:48.920 law giving a retired military uh... medicare 00:44:48.920 --> 00:44:51.400 for life admitted medical treatment for life 00:44:51.400 --> 00:44:54.360 uh... so uh... i'd i'm very excited to have him 00:44:54.360 --> 00:44:56.719 on he's in a piece of amazing man his biography 00:44:56.719 --> 00:45:01.000 is uh... uh... when you read it you say how how 00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:04.019 could this man have have gone through all of 00:45:04.019 --> 00:45:06.840 this treatment in the p of the camp he was tortured 00:45:06.840 --> 00:45:12.059 daily for almost five years in the p of the camp 00:45:12.059 --> 00:45:16.639 his is uh... His accomplishments are just absolutely 00:45:16.639 --> 00:45:19.300 amazing. Throughout the entire time he was in 00:45:19.300 --> 00:45:23.739 the POW camp, he was tortured and he never once 00:45:23.739 --> 00:45:27.659 gave the North Vietnamese any useful information. 00:45:28.380 --> 00:45:30.860 It was always just his name, rank, and serial 00:45:30.860 --> 00:45:34.579 number. His mantra was to return with honor. 00:45:35.300 --> 00:45:38.500 We're also going to have a special guest. John 00:45:38.500 --> 00:45:41.000 McCain is going to be on to talk about Bud Day 00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:43.900 and how he met and what they went through in 00:45:43.900 --> 00:45:47.730 the camp. So I'm excited. I can tell. I can tell. 00:45:47.849 --> 00:45:49.050 He's jumping out of his seat here, folks. Can 00:45:49.050 --> 00:45:52.269 you tell I'm excited? He can't wait to do that. 00:45:52.489 --> 00:45:54.269 You know, I wanted to just point out something 00:45:54.269 --> 00:45:57.130 before I should have mentioned this when I was 00:45:57.130 --> 00:45:59.690 talking with Dick Thompson is that one of the 00:45:59.690 --> 00:46:01.690 members of their board at the Thomas Moore Law 00:46:01.690 --> 00:46:05.829 Center is Rear Admiral Jeremiah Denton, who was 00:46:05.829 --> 00:46:09.670 one of the longest held POWs. And I was thinking 00:46:09.670 --> 00:46:11.389 when you're talking about Bud Day, you know, 00:46:11.449 --> 00:46:14.070 how these people came back from that situation 00:46:14.070 --> 00:46:16.269 and have gone on to live a very, you know, very 00:46:16.489 --> 00:46:19.309 life obviously some of them had you know I'm 00:46:19.309 --> 00:46:21.369 gonna talk about PTSD I would think that there 00:46:21.369 --> 00:46:22.989 would be some issues going on there with some 00:46:22.989 --> 00:46:25.849 of those guys mm -hmm but of course but days 00:46:25.849 --> 00:46:29.030 is he's got many physical disabilities because 00:46:29.030 --> 00:46:31.269 of the I know it's been five years all crunched 00:46:31.269 --> 00:46:33.190 up because they broke his fingers numerous numerous 00:46:33.190 --> 00:46:37.190 times yeah So I'm excited to talk about... It's 00:46:37.190 --> 00:46:42.289 also interesting when a military person is taken 00:46:42.289 --> 00:46:47.750 as a POW, his rank never changes while he's a 00:46:47.750 --> 00:46:51.369 POW. It's when he comes home, he finds out, hey, 00:46:51.769 --> 00:46:53.670 you got promoted three times while you were in 00:46:53.670 --> 00:46:57.690 camp. Admiral Denton was that way because he 00:46:57.690 --> 00:47:00.050 went in, I think, as a commander, and when he 00:47:00.050 --> 00:47:04.139 came out, he was a two -star admiral. And all 00:47:04.139 --> 00:47:07.360 of their promotions are classified, top secret, 00:47:07.599 --> 00:47:09.940 until their return. It has to prevent them from 00:47:09.940 --> 00:47:12.739 being mistreated because of their rank in the 00:47:12.739 --> 00:47:16.920 POW camps. It makes certain sense. So make sure 00:47:16.920 --> 00:47:18.539 that you tune in next week to Veterans Radio 00:47:18.539 --> 00:47:21.360 to hear that incredible story. Coming up the 00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:23.260 following week on the 19th, we're going to be 00:47:23.260 --> 00:47:26.519 looking at the Okinawa invasion of World War 00:47:26.519 --> 00:47:28.500 II, and we are looking for some survivors of 00:47:28.500 --> 00:47:31.480 the Okinawa invasion. So please, if you know 00:47:31.480 --> 00:47:33.760 of anybody who has been involved with that, give 00:47:33.760 --> 00:47:36.349 us a call. at uh... veterans radio you can find 00:47:36.349 --> 00:47:38.389 all the information on our website and then on 00:47:38.389 --> 00:47:40.949 memorial day we want to tell some stories about 00:47:40.949 --> 00:47:43.909 your personal heroes that unfortunately did not 00:47:43.909 --> 00:47:45.750 make it home cuz that's what memorial day is 00:47:45.750 --> 00:47:48.650 all about so we want you to uh... give us a call 00:47:48.650 --> 00:47:51.030 at veterans radio or send us an email and will 00:47:51.030 --> 00:47:53.710 be more than happy to tell your stories on the 00:47:53.710 --> 00:47:56.510 air i guess that's about it we've got one thing 00:47:56.510 --> 00:47:58.369 you want to say i understand that uh... i think 00:47:58.369 --> 00:48:00.710 our guests bob good job on the board all our 00:48:00.710 --> 00:48:02.750 new interns which will be meeting as we go along 00:48:02.750 --> 00:48:06.150 the way On behalf of Veterans Radio and Ave Maria 00:48:06.150 --> 00:48:08.230 Radio, you are dismissed.