From the studios of Ave Maria Radio in Ann Arbor,
this is Veterans Radio. And now, here's your
host, Gary Lillard. Good morning. Good morning
to all our troops out there protecting our company,
company, protecting our country. Good morning
to my veteran brothers and sisters. Welcome home
to all of you. Good morning America. And also
good morning to our friends down in Tasmania
and Australia. I know you're listening. It's
awfully late at night, but we appreciate it.
Listening in on the internet. Good morning to
all and welcome to Veterans Radio, which is brought
to you by Ave Maria Studios in Ann Arbor, Michigan.
Bob, we've got a show today that might be very
controversial, might not. It's one that a lot
of Vietnam veterans are going to be pleased with.
And it'll be one that a lot of Iraq, Afghanistan
vets are going to be pleased with. It's about
Winter Soldier and Winter Soldier II. Those were
public hearings that were organized to talk about
the atrocities being committed by our troops.
And we're going to find out how factual those
hearings were. I should have said... I'm talking
about the Airbus, the old airborne guy. Oh, yes,
I know. Don't call me Legs Gould. It's a little
bit delayed, but that's all right. Gary, welcome
this morning. Did you have your coffee? Barely.
I've got about two -thirds of it here, and it's
not kicking yet. You have to meet me down at
the Big Boy. This is my first time back on after
my trip to Vietnam. I came back all fired up
and going to put together a show on it. It's
something that I recommended to all who can do
it. I know everybody has different emotional
scars. Mine are different and the trip to Vietnam
was the greatest cure I've ever gone through.
Well, I want to welcome everybody listening to
us from coast to coast and around the world and
have a good Earth Day today. I don't know. Should
you say happy Earth Day or good Earth Day or
what? I'm not sure what to say. Happy Earth Day.
Happy Earth Day. There you go. Every day is Earth
Day for me. I live out in the country. If you
ever say happy, how can you go wrong? That's
right. Be happy. Don't worry. Be happy. Bingo.
We're going to talk about veteran stuff, right?
Are you through? Well, we have somebody standing
by, so fire away. Tell me who we have. Mr. Brad
Cooke. And Mr. Cooke is waiting to - Come on,
Veterans Radio. Good morning, Brad. You're with
the Veterans of Modern Warfare. Is that not right?
Brad Cook? Brad Cook, this is Gary Lilly. I understand
you're with Veterans of Modern Warfare? Yes,
I am. Ah. Good deal. Tell us a little bit about
Veterans of Modern Warfare. Most people probably
haven't heard of your organization. They've heard
of the VFW, the Vietnam Veterans of America,
American Legion, and all of the others. What
is the Veterans of Modern Warfare? Veterans of
Modern Warfare is an organization that began
in September of 2006. It was started by some
Gulf War veterans who felt that there was a bit
of a gap serving veterans. after vietnam so basically
they've got started we service all veterans that
have served at least one day in uniform uh...
from august second nineteen ninety two present
day it is a national organization uh... we're
the first chapter in michigan there's currently
about fourteen chapters across the country right
now and still growing of course how many members
do you have i currently have approximately eighty
two members Is that Michigan or all told? No,
that's just Michigan. Okay. And how do people,
there is a real need. I know when we came back
from Vietnam, we didn't really relate to the
guys that were in wars ahead of us. And I suspect
that you guys are going through the same thing.
We Vietnam vets are doing our best to take you
under our wings and help you out so you don't
make the same mistakes we did. It's better always
to be amongst your peers. Absolutely is correct.
My particular chapter actually was spawned from
a Vietnam veterans chapter, chapter 154 here
in Mount Clemens. And we work real closely with
them. They're kind of our big brothers and we
look for all of their assistance because, like
you said, you've kind of done the groundwork
and we're the pioneers of helping veterans in
these present times. And we rely on them for
a lot of assistance, as well as beginning and
building our own organization. You have a good
group of mentors there. I know a lot of the guys
from Chapter 154. At one time they were the largest
in the United States with over 1 ,200 members.
The projects they have going on are astounding.
And taking the young vets under their wing is
something that's near and dear to their heart.
I know it. But you guys have a fundraiser coming
up. Tell us about it. We have a fundraiser for
a young man by the name of Alex Knapp. The fundraiser
is Saturday, April 26th. On March 14th, about
three days approximately before Alex was due
to come home, his vehicle was involved with an
IED explosion in Iraq. And unfortunately Alex
lost both of his legs. So of course he's currently
at Walter Reed Hospital. He'll be undergoing
probably many surgeries as well as rehabilitation.
And there's been some other bad things that have
happened to the family. Alex's father, Eric,
he is suffering with cancer right now and he's
been unable to work for quite a while. And so
the fundraiser right now is to really help the
family. Alex's mom, Jeanette, she's in Walter
Reed. She's been there since Alex has arrived
back in the States, as well as his dad. And I
just found out the other day his dad did have
to come home for some testing for his conditions.
So their immediate needs are poverty money, is
that correct? Yes, yes. Their immediate need,
of course, is to make sure that they are able
to operate the household. while mom and dad are
continuously spending their time and their much
-needed time with Alex during his whole ordeal
at Walter Reed. Well, there's one thing about
the Detroit area and Southeast Michigan area.
It's an area with heart and we're going to call
on people to show that they have heart. Tell
us what the fundraiser is going to be, where
it's going to be and what people can do. Well,
it's going to be in Shelby Township. That's Alex's
hometown. It's at a VFW post. It's on 8311 Wilson
Drive in Shelby Township. And it's from 1 in
the afternoon to 7 p .m. And it's a small VFW
hall. They wanted to keep it in Alex's town,
so they're hoping that it'll just be a continuous
flow of folks that can come in and be a part
of Alex's fundraising day. There'll be prizes,
of course, 50 -50 raffles. There'll be 50 -50
that happens probably every hour. And then there'll
be food served and my chapter will be out there.
I know that the Vietnam Vets from Chapter 154,
I've made sure that they all know and hope to
get some support from them out there that day.
You'll get support from 154. I'm sorry? You'll
get support from 154. Yes, they are. They've
always been there for us and they truly... are
making it a point to take care of these young
kids. They have a lot of passion for what's going
on today and that's a definite positive thing.
Give us that address again and your telephone
number. That address is 8311 Wilson Drive and
that's Shelby Township and it's at the VFW Hall.
It's on Van Dyke, actually it's just off of Van
Dyke between 24 and 25 Mile Road. Okay. My number
that I can be reached at is 586 -615 -9975. If
any of your listeners are looking for any more
additional information or how we can get them
out to come out and spend a little bit of time
with this fundraiser, we'd be happy to let them
know. Give us your full name again. My name is
Brad, last name Cook. C -O -O -K. What did you
do in the military, Brad? I spent about five
and a half years in the Army. I spent about five
and a half years actually in the Air Force. I
was in Desert Storm back in 1991. And about six,
eight months after that is when I retired and
got on with life. And about a year and a half,
two years ago, the president of 154, who is a
Wolverine hog chapter member, which I also belonged
to, we found that bikers are very generous people
and very active with veterans and i've been involved
with them and he came to me and asked me if i
would be willing to get this organization up
and running and uh... i told my thought it was
time okay good deal and for people that uh...
didn't get a chance to write that down send an
email to veterans radio at veterans radio dot
net and we will email the information to you
we want to see a lot of uh... people turn out
and support this young man who lost his legs
for us, gave up his tomorrows for us. And Brad
Cook, thank you so much for being on Veterans
Radio. Well, thank you, Gary. I appreciate your
time this afternoon. You're welcome, and welcome
home. Thank you, sir, as you too. Are we going
to a break right now Bob or are we going to the
welcome home? Well right now we're gonna go to
welcome home Gary welcome home each week on veterans
radio We welcome home servicemen and women who
in the service of our country have been stationed
around the world Dateline, South Carolina A celebration
after a year apart began as friends and family
gathered at armories across the strait to welcome
home members of the South Carolina Army National
Guard's 218th Brigade from a deployment in Afghanistan.
The soldiers, part of the state's largest single
unit deployment since World War II, are the first
of some 1 ,600 South Carolina Guard members returning
home through mid -May. Dateline Boston After
a year of waiting and worrying local soldiers
families got to say Welcome home to their loved
ones 60 army reservists from the 719th movement
control battalion spent 13 months overseas nine
of those months in Iraq Dateline Rochester, Minnesota
Police and fire crews escorted 17 Army Reserve
soldiers with the 79th Military Police Company,
who returned from 11 months in Baghdad, Iraq.
The soldiers working at Camp Victory in Baghdad,
where General David Petraeus was stationed, were
elements of the 79th Military Police Company
they've been deployed for. More than any other
military company in Minnesota. Congratulations
guys. Welcome home Dateline Bainbridge, Georgia
troops from the 78th troop command and a hundred
and hundred and tenths see SSB that's Charlie
Sierra Sarah Bravo were released to the waiting
arms of families and friends the unit known as
the Road Hogs came home to an official welcome
home ceremony and a job well done from Lieutenant
Colonel Roy would Their mission was to transport
equipment and supplies, and they traveled over
1 .8 million miles, supporting both combat and
local missions. Dateline, Fort Stewart, Georgia.
300 soldiers from the 3rd Infantry Division,
members of the 1st Brigade Combat Team, arrived
in Fort Stewart to an emotional homecoming scene.
The soldiers marched through cottonwood trees
onto Contral Field to awaiting families who had
rushed in to greet them. The unit had been in
Iraq for the past 15 months. Hundreds of American
flags were waving in Delvin to welcome home the
town's National Guard troops 50 soldiers with
the 1144 Transportation Motor Transport Battalion
had waited a year for this moment after serving
overseas in Kuwait We're back with Veterans Radio.
We've got a caller just asked where that benefit
is for the young troop who lost his legs It's
in Shelby Township at Van Dyke and the address
is 8311 Wilson Drive and for information call
Brad Cook at 586 -615 -9975. Now for anybody
else that wants that information go to veteransradio
.net, send us an email and we'll email that back
to you. Glad to hear that there's some people
out there already wanting to help. Winter Soldier
Winter Soldier was a hearing that was held in
Detroit by What year was that? 1972 or 71 was
held by members of the Vietnam Veterans Against
the War hosted by John Kerry who was then an
unknown funded by Jane Fonda with the several
concerts that she put on and there was a lot
of things that came out of Winter Soldier that
created a reputation, a bad reputation for Vietnam
vets that continues to this day. Recently there
was a Winter Soldier II hearing held. We're going
to talk about both of those and right now we're
going to talk to Scott Sweatt about Winter Soldier
I that took place in Detroit. Good morning Scott.
Hi Gary, how are you doing? Well I'm terrific,
thank you. feeling on top of the world, being
able to get the word out. Tell us what your position
is with Winter Soldier. Well, I wrote the website
WinterSoldier .com in 2004, early during the
presidential campaign that of course featured
John Kerry, a key participant in that event.
And the idea of the website was to shed some
light on the propaganda campaign. that the Vietnam
veterans against the war and Carrie and Fonda
and a number of other radicals put together to
try and convey the idea to the public that the
American troops in Vietnam were committing war
crimes routinely and on a widespread basis, which
of course is not the case. Okay, let's cover
it right up front. My Lai. Everybody knows about
My Lai. My Lai happened. But what I tell students
when I'm talking to them is, what's notable about
Meli is the fact that it's notable. The other
side, that was their modus operandi to go in
and wipe out villages, especially up in the mountains
where the hill tribes were. But that doesn't
excuse it for our guys doing it. And a lot of
troops feel that the officers' heads should roll.
A good friend of mine said, I can understand
the rage. that took place that caused people
to want to do it, but that's why we have officers
to prevent it. Well, exactly. If Meli had in
fact been a standard policy for the US, we would
never know the name. The fact is that it was
a very unusual event in the war. Nonetheless,
it gave the leftist tremendous propaganda lever
to use against the US by saying that this was
how all of the millions of troops in Vietnam
were conducting themselves. So what was the purpose
of Winter Soldier and how did it get its name?
Well, the name Winter Soldier came, it was a
play on the term summer soldier, which was used
by Thomas Paine in one of his famous essays during
the Revolutionary War. The purpose of it, of
course, was to convey war crimes propaganda.
The event was, in theory, organized by disgruntled
veterans, but what is less widely known is the
extent to which top leaders of the radical left,
who had already met with North Vietnamese leaders
in Hanoi, were involved. Tom Hayden was there,
Sidney Peck, who is the leader of the National
Coalition Against War, Racism, and Repression.
Howard Zinn, Richard Falk, all these people had
made the pilgrimage to North Vietnam to coordinate
their efforts with North Vietnamese leaders.
And we're very much invested in trying to help
the other side win the war. And for those in
the Ann Arbor area who think of Tom Hayden as
only a congressman from Southern California,
he's a University of Michigan graduate who was
the editor of the Michigan Daily during his time
here. What was the method of conducting the winter
soldiers? What did they do? It was a three -day
conference held in Howard Johnson's outside of
Detroit from January 31st to February 2nd of
1971. And what they did was they had about 100
guys get up and tell horrific stories about atrocities
that they said they had either witnessed or participated
in. Later investigations showed that while most
of these men were in fact in the military, a
majority of them were not in combat. And when
the U .S. Army for example investigated The claims
that they had made, many retracted their stories
and most of the others were completely unable
to provide any evidence to support them. So it's
quite clear this was a propaganda event. It was
not an attempt to shed light on what was actually
happening on the ground in Vietnam. Well, this
is a hot issue. We've got a caller on the line
already. Roger, is it? Put him through, Bob.
Roger? You've called into veterans radio? No,
this is Lorne from Western New York on Line 1.
Okay, hi Lorne. Yeah, good morning, Gary, how
are you? I'm good, thank you. Yeah, your last
caller there's got it right on the money about
that Winter Soldiers program. It was definitely
proven that most of these guys were frauds right
from the get -go. It was a propaganda move, it's
what it was, and I one time did an article in
the American Legion magazine about that telling...
Basically, John Kerry should name the names,
and if at that time he was a reserve lieutenant
in the United States Navy, he had an obligation.
At that time, if he knew of war crimes committed,
he had an obligation to turn these names over
for prosecution. There's no statute of limitations
on war crimes. If he knew about any, he should
have done something about it. He claims that
even his crew was involved in things like this,
which begs the question, who was in command of
his vessel? Was it the Boatswain's mate or was
it himself? If he could not control his own five
-man crew on a swift boat from committing atrocities,
how could he ever think he could be Commander
in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States?
That's one question right there. As far as factually,
nothing he said stood up to any kind of inquiries
at all. When they went to looking into these
things, as your last caller stipulated, None
of these things could be borne out. And that's
not the way American troops acted anyway. I mean,
I served over there with the United States Marine
Corps. We went into villages. Our corpsmen set
up shop to inoculate the villagers and the children.
We dug wells. We worked on the pacification program.
There was a $250 fine for shooting a water buffalo.
We didn't have to be told what it would be for
shooting an unarmed civilian. I mean, we just
knew this. I never witnessed anything like this.
I served with honorable men and under honorable
men, and I just can't imagine anything like this
going on with professional soldiers. Almost everybody
I've ever talked to that served in Vietnam. Thanks
again, Lauren. Yeah, I certainly hope people
put that in perspective with today's troops,
too, when they start hearing the same thing,
because the same kind of people are going to
be out here to do the same thing. And they're
doing it. We're going to talk about that later
on. Thanks again. Thanks again, Lauren. Uh -huh.
Bye -bye. I'd like to comment on that if I could.
Sure, please. Of course, the Swift Boat Veterans
for Truth in 2004 made exactly the same point
that the caller just emphasized, which was that
they served right with Cary in boats next to
him and in one case his own gunner, and they
strenuously denied that the Brown Water Navy
was committing those sorts of acts, and they
deeply resented Cary's testimony to the contrary.
I would like them to point out, though, that
Kerry didn't exactly admit to committing war
crimes. What he did instead was pretend that
fairly routine military actions were wrong or
criminal. He said, yes, I committed the same
sorts of atrocities that thousands of other soldiers
did. In that I took part in shooting in free
fire zones, I conducted harassment and interdiction
fire. I used .50 caliber machine guns, which
we were granted in order to use and so forth.
This was all part of the standard VDAW propaganda.
They wanted people to think that free fire zones
and harassment interdiction fire were euphemisms
for slaughtering civilians, when in fact they
were what the military calls fire control measures.
The Free Fire Zone was essentially a way to coordinate
between multiple groups that were sharing a battle
area without having to go through a higher authority.
So what they were counting on was that people
wouldn't understand that these ominous sounding
terms really didn't mean what the VAW tried to
convince people that they did mean. When these
people testified, their testimony was entered
into Congress. It was delivered to them by John
Kerry. Well, not actually by Kerry. It was read
into the record by a Senator. By read into the
record. He just mentions it and then they print
it out. Correct. But I mean, who delivered it
to the Senator? Well, Kerry testified on behalf
of the Winter Soldier Charges in April of 1971
in front of the Senate Committee, Fulbright's
Committee on Foreign Relations. the event that
made him famous, and the reason it did was because
at the time, of course, the mainstream media
just consisted of three networks, and they all
shone a bright spotlight on Kerry's testimony.
They treated everything that the VVAWs said as
though it was real and had been checked out,
and in general gave tremendous credibility to
these completely unverified and unsubstantiated
charges. without doing even the most basic work
of the investigation. Okay, let's talk about
that. The show is not about Kerry, it's about
Winter Soldier and it's about the people that
testified at Winter Soldier. How many people
testified there? About 110. And all of them turned
in notarized statements? No, none of them turned
in affidavits or sworn statements of any sort.
Although, Cary repeatedly promised that they
would. That never happened. Okay, so were any
of these people subsequently investigated? Well,
it depends on what you mean by investigated.
Once the charges became public and famous through
Cary's agency, the military was tasked with investigating
the charges that were made at Winter Soldier.
and they proceeded to do so in detail. We don't
have the reports from the Navy investigative
services, but we do have a summary that was written
in the book American Vietnam by the historian
Gunter Louis. He said that the charges fell apart
under investigation, that some of the people
that were there were not who they claimed to
be. So, stolen identity? There were a couple
cases, he said, where they contacted the people
who had supposedly spoken there and they said
they were not ever in Detroit. Okay, we've got
15 seconds left. How many of those people were
actually in Vietnam that testified? 8 seconds?
Probably most of them, but the key isn't whether
they were there, it's whether they were telling
the truth. Okay, we're going to a break now.
We'll be back right after these messages. We're
going to be wrapping up Winter Soldier 1 and
going to Winter Soldier 2. You're listening to
Veterans Radio. The Medal of Honor is the highest
award for valor in combat given a member of the
Armed Forces of the United States. There have
been over 3 ,400 recipients of the nation's highest
award. This is one of them. Specialist George
Ingalls threw himself on a live grenade to save
his comrades. Details after this. Engels accompanied
his squad on a night ambush mission in Vietnam.
Shortly after the ambush was established, an
enemy soldier entered the killing zone and was
shot when he tried to evade capture. Other enemy
soldiers were expected to enter the area and
the ambush was maintained in the same location.
Two quiet hours passed without incident. Suddenly,
a hand grenade was thrown from the nearby dense
undergrowth into the center of the squad's position.
The grenade did not explode, but shortly thereafter,
a second grenade landed directly between Ingalls
and a nearby comrade. Although he could have
jumped to a safe position, Ingalls, in a spontaneous
act of great courage, threw himself on the grenade
and absorbed its full blast. The explosion mortally
wounded him, but his heroic actions saved the
lives of the remaining members of his squad.
The Medal of Honor series is a production of
Veterans Radio. Okay, we're back on Veterans
Radio and we're talking about Winter Soldier
with Scott Sweatt. Scott, we're going to wrap
this up and then we're going to be going to Winter
Soldier 2 with George Mellinger. But first off,
you have a website. What is the website called?
WinterSoldier .com. And it would be Winter Soldier
plural or singular? Singular. Okay, WinterSoldier
.com. I've gone through it a number of times
and I see a section on FBI files. For a history
buff, this is tremendous. How many files do you
have on there and what might somebody find? I
think there's something over 20 ,000 pages of
files which represent the FBI's investigation
into the actions of the Vietnam Veterans Against
the War in the early 1970s. Are there any real
fire bombs in there? Well, there's a lot of interesting
information. Some of it touches on the VDAW's
discussion of whether to assassinate half a dozen
pro -war United States Senators, which took place
in late 1971. So I would say that's fairly explosive.
What about KGB involvement? Is there anything
that touches on that? Not directly. However,
there is a great deal that connects the VVAW
to the leaders of the Viet Cong and also the
North Vietnamese Communists. Scott, I thank you
for being on and I really would like people,
whether they're doubters or believers, to go
to wintersoldier .com. There's a wealth of information
and if you take time and look it over, You may
change your mind, you may not change your mind,
or you may reinforce positions that you already
have, but go to wintersoldier .com. And if you
have questions, email us at veteransradio .net.
Scott Sweatt, thank you very much for being on
Veterans Radio. Gary, thanks for having me on.
You're very welcome. Right now, we want to have
George Mellinger on the phone. George, you're
an expert on Winter Soldier II or you're a self
-taught expert. Tell me about your background.
Well, my background is that I'm another of the
Vietnam vets, but due to circumstances, I was
allowed to attend the Winter Soldier II hearings
in Washington this March. So that's my basic
expertise. Tell us who organized those. Pardon?
Tell us who organized those hearings. Back, I
believe it was July of 2006, members of the old
Vietnam Veterans Against the War, the VVAW, at
one of their annual meet get togethers, decided
to organize a group called Iraqi Veterans Against
the War, which was modeled on the old VVAW. This
organization, the IVAW, Iraqi Veterans Against
the War, was essentially founded by the VVAW.
and was modeled on them. And in most other respects,
from their political orientation to their mode
of operation, they resembled a younger version
of VDAW. And were there the older Vietnam veterans
against the war in attendance? At this conference,
yes, they certainly were. How big was the room?
Pardon? How big was the room? I'm pretty poor
on estimating sizes of rooms, but they essentially
took over for four days the Kirkland Center at
the George Meany Labor College in Bethesda. It
was the National Labor College. The building
was essentially turned over to this IVAW hearings.
The informal impression I had was that the IVAW
was probably slightly more numerous than their
younger IVAW proteges and they certainly seem
to be the ones who were in charge both as advisors
and guides and also as security. Okay, what revelations
came out of this hearing? The essential revelation
that came out to cut right to the bottom line
is war is unpleasant and people get hurt. And
if you're fighting anywhere where there are civilians,
civilians are going to get caught in the crossfire
and injured. I think anybody who's ever been
in any other war knows this as a matter of fact.
It's a sad and reprehensible truth, but it's
always been that way. And nothing was brought
out at Winter Soldier II. that suggested anything
else. Myself, I heard no evidence of anything
that could possibly be construed as an actual
war crime or deliberate atrocity. And you sat
there through how many of the hearings? I spent
the entire of Friday at the hearings. I did not
return on Saturday because the panels that were
up for discussion there were such that They did
not seem to promise any potential of revealing
further atrocities. What was the title of the
panel that you attended? I attended actually
four different panels and I believe the first
title was on, let's see, it was Rules of Engagement
Part 1. And then there was the crisis in veterans'
health care, the corporate pillaging and military
contractors, and rules of engagement part two.
These were the panels where the participants
promised to deliver their tales of atrocity.
Two of the panels were rules of engagement one
and rules of engagement two. Our military has
always had rules of engagement which has frustrated
our troops in battle at times and early in the
Vietnam War even when fired upon they had to
get permission to fire back and that's the case
even in Gulf War I where they were being fired
on and had to get permission of fire back because
it was inside a populated area. You know, you
can say these are anecdotal, but I talked to
people that were there. So for the people listening
who thinks that it's a Wild West show, there
are rules of engagement and combat. Is that right?
Absolutely. And the fact is, as in Vietnam, as
you and I both know, these rules of engagement
were intended to be restrictive. In many cases,
they kept people from taking action, which might
have protected their own safety and might have
reduced our own casualties, though at the risk
of civilian casualties. What was the worst example
that you heard about the closest to an atrocity,
or what atrocity did you hear about at Winter
Soldier 2? One incident, one individual discussed
an occasion where he shot a civilian, someone
who he referred to as, quote, a Batman, unquote,
and from his description of the incident, it
sounded to me as if this was something which
could have been a basis for investigation or
even trial. Had it been verifiable? In terms
of verifiable, we mean we want to know where
it happened, precisely. When it happened, who
was involved? Were there any other witnesses
who could confirm that it happened? Basic proof
as contrasted with made up or imagined war stories.
Did that man or woman report it? at the time
that it happened? Apparently not. And apparently
also, uh, and let me also... I can't say I blame
him. ...state at this point that none of the
charges that were made at Winter Soldier II were
allowed to, were willing to be testified to were
signed under oath. You know, and giving them
a little bit of benefit of the doubt there, had
I... done something in a war and if it was accidental
or if it wasn't accidental, I mean, I don't know
that I'd sign a statement to it saying, yes,
I'm a murderer, because the penalties are harsh
in the military. Military law is a lot different
than civilian law and people don't quite comprehend
it. And if you are found guilty of something
like that and you're sent away for a long time
and it's not an easy life, Absolutely not, but
if you are not willing to actually back up your
stories, you shouldn't go forward and produce
them as public tales. I agree with you on that
and I believe that everybody should be investigated
if they are making that type of a statement.
If you're listening to Veterans Radio, we're
going to be going to our last break and we want
you to stay on and hear the rest of Winter Soldier
2. And you're back on Veterans Radio. We're listening
to George Mellinger talking about Winter Soldier
2. Before we go any further, I do want to say
that I sent out emails to members of Vietnam
Veterans Against the War and Iraq Veterans Against
the War. I went to a couple of websites and I
posted on there that this show was going to be
playing. And that included our telephone number,
so there's been a lot of effort to get these
people to phone in and give their side of the
story. Haven't heard from anybody yet, but we're
going to give out our telephone number right
now in case somebody wants to call in and comment
one way or the other. Veterans Radio is 877 -573
-7825. 877 -573 -7825 and we're back with George
Mellinger. George, you were allowed to enter
that room and were you allowed to tape the hearings?
No, this was one of the controversial things.
We were not allowed to tape. We were also supposedly
not allowed to take film or other photographs,
they were very restrictive about who they allowed
to enter and how they treated us while we were
there. There was at least one individual who
was in charge of the program from IVAW who did
treat us very fairly, who let us in and who assured
that we were treated well while we were there.
However, other IVAW members and officials treated
us as if we were an obviously hostile force.
A couple of the other bloggers who were in attendance
even were escorted to and from the bathroom.
There were guards stations throughout the building
in front of virtually any and all doors to make
sure that nobody went where they were not permitted
to be. Okay, so you're a blogger and there are
other bloggers there. What is your blog site?
My blog site is called veteranamericans .com.
Would you email that to us? at veteransradio
.net so that we can respond for anybody else
that wants to find your blog site. Absolutely.
I'll do that as soon as we get off the air. Good
deal. You go to veteransradio .net, send us an
email with the link to your website and we'll
send it out to anybody. Incidentally, talking
about these confessions that brought to mind
the very, very famous case during the Vietnam
War. A photograph that everybody remembers that
just tears at their heart of a napalm strike
had taken place on a village and a young girl
who was probably about nine or ten years old
was running away from the village towards a cameraman,
her clothes were burned off of her, her arms
were out and she had been badly burned by napalm.
Horrible, horrible photograph, horrible incident.
The assumption was always made that it was American
planes. that had dropped that napalm, it was
a totally South Vietnamese Air Force operation,
including the forward ground observer called
in the airstrike. Now, not long ago, that lady
who is now a lady and has managed to get out
of the Vietnam and lives in Canada where she's
married and had kids she was invited to speak
at the wall in Washington DC and while she was
there a man came up to her crying and apologizing
to her that he was the one that called in the
airstrike made national news and she forgave
him and it was just an unbelievable story. Well,
it was an unbelievable story. Turned out he was
a fraud. He didn't call in the air strike. He
wasn't anywhere near that part of Vietnam. What
do we have here? Does that relate to any of these
people that are claiming that they have committed
atrocities? Absolutely. This is one of those
things that has been a a spiritual mystery to
me is why people want to advance such unfortunate
claims about themselves or even to pretend to
be what they are not. But the truth is there
are large numbers of fake veterans. We call them
wannabes, individuals who have either little
or no military service, who advance unusual claims
of either heroism or more often atrocities in
their own behalf. This was one of the things
that actually got us set up and brought in to
the Winter Soldier. In the wake of these, in
preceding these hearings, there had been a number
of claims by veterans or supposed veterans of
being, perpetrators of atrocities and crimes.
Jesse Macbeth is probably the best known example
who produced a video on the internet claiming
to be a ranger who had committed atrocities,
killed several hundred people. But almost as
soon as he released his claims, real veterans
started debunking them. They noticed that the
uniform he was wearing was completely bogus and
wrong. He didn't know the language or the slang
of American troops. It turns out that he had
served 44 days in basic training before being
thrown out of the Army as unsuitable. later was
convicted and sentenced to prison for defrauding
the VA and wearing medals to which he was not
entitled. It was because of people such as him
that we began looking very closely at the IVAW
hearings that were supposed to be upcoming and
informing the IVAW that we would be checking
they mortify these very carefully of anybody
and everyone who testified. Well, there was a
fellow that made a lot of appearances with John
Kerry and I had it brought up to me a couple
of years ago. The guy was outside the hearings
there, the Winter Soldier hearings, and he said,
I'll never forget the pilot who was in his wheelchair
and had been paralyzed and the just the terrible
testimony he gave of what happened to him. Well,
folks, if you ever came across a photograph of
that pilot, let me tell you, he was not on, he
never flew over North Vietnam. He was a loadmaster
on a C -130. There's no proof that it ever even
flew over Vietnam, let alone landed in Vietnam.
And he's in a wheelchair because he hurt his
back in a basketball game. And he was one of
the main people giving testimony there at Winter
Soldier. And so keep that in mind when you see
any photograph of Winter Soldier I. A basic question
for you to ask yourself is, if you believe that
the average American soldier can commit atrocities,
you have to believe that you can. Think about
it. If atrocities are committed in the insanity
of war, the people that go off to the military
are normal people. And if they can commit an
atrocity, so can you. You have it in your own
self to commit the atrocity. Gary, that is an
excellent point. We're coming up on a couple
minutes. Give us some of your last thoughts.
This is a free talk zone right now, George. I
would like to point out that there were only
800 people who joined IVAW and that is out of
about over one and a half million Americans who
have actually been sent to the combat theater.
I checked the IVAW website and only about 140
of those 800 individuals had their profiles posted.
And of those 140 people who posted their own
profiles and stories publicly, only about three
quarters of them had actually been deployed.
The other quarter were people who had served
in the United States or in Europe or someplace
where they had never even gotten near the Middle
East. And of that 75%, who actually saw the desert.
Most of them were in non -combat positions. One
of the leaders of IVAW spent his war in base
camp changing slides on PowerPoint projections
for the general. This is a man who really has
no basis for any direct... atrocity stories,
but he can make up atrocity stories or pass along
second or third hand rumors. And that is essentially
what the IVAW hearings were all about, made up
stories and rumors. We're going to have you send
your contact information, your blog site to us
at Veterans Radio. George Mellinger, I appreciate
your being on Veterans Radio. Scott Sweatt, thank
you very much. Support those sponsors and keep
Veterans Radio on the air and if you want to
sponsor, give us a phone call or go to our website
and email us. Until next week, you are dismissed.