WEBVTT 00:00:15.789 --> 00:00:18.550 From the studios of Ave Maria Radio in Ann Arbor, 00:00:18.809 --> 00:00:21.929 this is Veterans Radio. And now, here's your 00:00:21.929 --> 00:00:27.030 host, Gary Lillard. Good morning. Good morning 00:00:27.030 --> 00:00:29.850 to all our troops out there protecting our company, 00:00:30.550 --> 00:00:34.310 company, protecting our country. Good morning 00:00:34.310 --> 00:00:36.869 to my veteran brothers and sisters. Welcome home 00:00:36.869 --> 00:00:40.259 to all of you. Good morning America. And also 00:00:40.259 --> 00:00:42.479 good morning to our friends down in Tasmania 00:00:42.479 --> 00:00:44.399 and Australia. I know you're listening. It's 00:00:44.399 --> 00:00:46.759 awfully late at night, but we appreciate it. 00:00:46.759 --> 00:00:49.399 Listening in on the internet. Good morning to 00:00:49.399 --> 00:00:52.020 all and welcome to Veterans Radio, which is brought 00:00:52.020 --> 00:00:57.560 to you by Ave Maria Studios in Ann Arbor, Michigan. 00:00:59.119 --> 00:01:02.679 Bob, we've got a show today that might be very 00:01:02.679 --> 00:01:05.400 controversial, might not. It's one that a lot 00:01:05.400 --> 00:01:09.200 of Vietnam veterans are going to be pleased with. 00:01:09.420 --> 00:01:12.900 And it'll be one that a lot of Iraq, Afghanistan 00:01:12.900 --> 00:01:16.700 vets are going to be pleased with. It's about 00:01:16.700 --> 00:01:20.459 Winter Soldier and Winter Soldier II. Those were 00:01:20.459 --> 00:01:24.920 public hearings that were organized to talk about 00:01:24.920 --> 00:01:27.500 the atrocities being committed by our troops. 00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:30.340 And we're going to find out how factual those 00:01:30.340 --> 00:01:35.659 hearings were. I should have said... I'm talking 00:01:35.659 --> 00:01:39.120 about the Airbus, the old airborne guy. Oh, yes, 00:01:39.340 --> 00:01:42.379 I know. Don't call me Legs Gould. It's a little 00:01:42.379 --> 00:01:45.760 bit delayed, but that's all right. Gary, welcome 00:01:45.760 --> 00:01:48.799 this morning. Did you have your coffee? Barely. 00:01:48.900 --> 00:01:51.379 I've got about two -thirds of it here, and it's 00:01:51.379 --> 00:01:52.400 not kicking yet. You have to meet me down at 00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:56.019 the Big Boy. This is my first time back on after 00:01:56.019 --> 00:01:59.680 my trip to Vietnam. I came back all fired up 00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:03.879 and going to put together a show on it. It's 00:02:03.879 --> 00:02:06.439 something that I recommended to all who can do 00:02:06.439 --> 00:02:08.659 it. I know everybody has different emotional 00:02:08.659 --> 00:02:12.919 scars. Mine are different and the trip to Vietnam 00:02:12.919 --> 00:02:15.639 was the greatest cure I've ever gone through. 00:02:16.300 --> 00:02:18.340 Well, I want to welcome everybody listening to 00:02:18.340 --> 00:02:21.539 us from coast to coast and around the world and 00:02:21.539 --> 00:02:24.960 have a good Earth Day today. I don't know. Should 00:02:24.960 --> 00:02:28.159 you say happy Earth Day or good Earth Day or 00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:30.990 what? I'm not sure what to say. Happy Earth Day. 00:02:31.090 --> 00:02:33.409 Happy Earth Day. There you go. Every day is Earth 00:02:33.409 --> 00:02:35.129 Day for me. I live out in the country. If you 00:02:35.129 --> 00:02:37.330 ever say happy, how can you go wrong? That's 00:02:37.330 --> 00:02:40.370 right. Be happy. Don't worry. Be happy. Bingo. 00:02:42.569 --> 00:02:44.210 We're going to talk about veteran stuff, right? 00:02:44.949 --> 00:02:47.110 Are you through? Well, we have somebody standing 00:02:47.110 --> 00:02:54.469 by, so fire away. Tell me who we have. Mr. Brad 00:02:54.469 --> 00:02:59.340 Cooke. And Mr. Cooke is waiting to - Come on, 00:02:59.560 --> 00:03:01.960 Veterans Radio. Good morning, Brad. You're with 00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:05.000 the Veterans of Modern Warfare. Is that not right? 00:03:09.099 --> 00:03:15.819 Brad Cook? Brad Cook, this is Gary Lilly. I understand 00:03:15.819 --> 00:03:18.719 you're with Veterans of Modern Warfare? Yes, 00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:24.159 I am. Ah. Good deal. Tell us a little bit about 00:03:24.159 --> 00:03:27.020 Veterans of Modern Warfare. Most people probably 00:03:27.020 --> 00:03:29.259 haven't heard of your organization. They've heard 00:03:29.259 --> 00:03:32.159 of the VFW, the Vietnam Veterans of America, 00:03:32.460 --> 00:03:34.800 American Legion, and all of the others. What 00:03:34.800 --> 00:03:38.020 is the Veterans of Modern Warfare? Veterans of 00:03:38.020 --> 00:03:40.199 Modern Warfare is an organization that began 00:03:40.199 --> 00:03:44.360 in September of 2006. It was started by some 00:03:44.360 --> 00:03:48.879 Gulf War veterans who felt that there was a bit 00:03:48.879 --> 00:03:53.310 of a gap serving veterans. after vietnam so basically 00:03:53.310 --> 00:03:56.629 they've got started we service all veterans that 00:03:56.629 --> 00:03:59.569 have served at least one day in uniform uh... 00:03:59.569 --> 00:04:02.050 from august second nineteen ninety two present 00:04:02.050 --> 00:04:06.449 day it is a national organization uh... we're 00:04:06.449 --> 00:04:09.250 the first chapter in michigan there's currently 00:04:09.250 --> 00:04:13.030 about fourteen chapters across the country right 00:04:13.030 --> 00:04:17.470 now and still growing of course how many members 00:04:17.470 --> 00:04:20.389 do you have i currently have approximately eighty 00:04:20.389 --> 00:04:24.269 two members Is that Michigan or all told? No, 00:04:24.269 --> 00:04:28.269 that's just Michigan. Okay. And how do people, 00:04:28.810 --> 00:04:31.470 there is a real need. I know when we came back 00:04:31.470 --> 00:04:37.370 from Vietnam, we didn't really relate to the 00:04:37.370 --> 00:04:39.589 guys that were in wars ahead of us. And I suspect 00:04:39.589 --> 00:04:42.649 that you guys are going through the same thing. 00:04:43.329 --> 00:04:45.410 We Vietnam vets are doing our best to take you 00:04:45.410 --> 00:04:47.910 under our wings and help you out so you don't 00:04:47.910 --> 00:04:52.810 make the same mistakes we did. It's better always 00:04:52.810 --> 00:04:56.069 to be amongst your peers. Absolutely is correct. 00:04:56.930 --> 00:05:00.089 My particular chapter actually was spawned from 00:05:00.089 --> 00:05:03.269 a Vietnam veterans chapter, chapter 154 here 00:05:03.269 --> 00:05:07.389 in Mount Clemens. And we work real closely with 00:05:07.389 --> 00:05:10.269 them. They're kind of our big brothers and we 00:05:10.269 --> 00:05:12.350 look for all of their assistance because, like 00:05:12.350 --> 00:05:15.310 you said, you've kind of done the groundwork 00:05:15.310 --> 00:05:19.250 and we're the pioneers of helping veterans in 00:05:19.250 --> 00:05:22.939 these present times. And we rely on them for 00:05:22.939 --> 00:05:26.319 a lot of assistance, as well as beginning and 00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:30.199 building our own organization. You have a good 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:33.000 group of mentors there. I know a lot of the guys 00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:36.060 from Chapter 154. At one time they were the largest 00:05:36.060 --> 00:05:38.819 in the United States with over 1 ,200 members. 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:41.959 The projects they have going on are astounding. 00:05:42.319 --> 00:05:46.319 And taking the young vets under their wing is 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:48.000 something that's near and dear to their heart. 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:50.720 I know it. But you guys have a fundraiser coming 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:53.379 up. Tell us about it. We have a fundraiser for 00:05:53.379 --> 00:05:56.899 a young man by the name of Alex Knapp. The fundraiser 00:05:56.899 --> 00:06:03.240 is Saturday, April 26th. On March 14th, about 00:06:03.240 --> 00:06:05.740 three days approximately before Alex was due 00:06:05.740 --> 00:06:08.639 to come home, his vehicle was involved with an 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:12.439 IED explosion in Iraq. And unfortunately Alex 00:06:12.439 --> 00:06:18.720 lost both of his legs. So of course he's currently 00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:21.459 at Walter Reed Hospital. He'll be undergoing 00:06:21.459 --> 00:06:24.220 probably many surgeries as well as rehabilitation. 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:29.560 And there's been some other bad things that have 00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:32.800 happened to the family. Alex's father, Eric, 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:35.439 he is suffering with cancer right now and he's 00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:38.439 been unable to work for quite a while. And so 00:06:38.439 --> 00:06:40.500 the fundraiser right now is to really help the 00:06:40.500 --> 00:06:43.459 family. Alex's mom, Jeanette, she's in Walter 00:06:43.459 --> 00:06:46.000 Reed. She's been there since Alex has arrived 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:49.079 back in the States, as well as his dad. And I 00:06:49.079 --> 00:06:50.819 just found out the other day his dad did have 00:06:50.819 --> 00:06:55.540 to come home for some testing for his conditions. 00:06:56.079 --> 00:06:59.379 So their immediate needs are poverty money, is 00:06:59.379 --> 00:07:01.860 that correct? Yes, yes. Their immediate need, 00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:04.839 of course, is to make sure that they are able 00:07:04.839 --> 00:07:08.180 to operate the household. while mom and dad are 00:07:08.180 --> 00:07:10.680 continuously spending their time and their much 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:13.459 -needed time with Alex during his whole ordeal 00:07:13.459 --> 00:07:15.439 at Walter Reed. Well, there's one thing about 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:18.319 the Detroit area and Southeast Michigan area. 00:07:18.759 --> 00:07:21.720 It's an area with heart and we're going to call 00:07:21.720 --> 00:07:23.839 on people to show that they have heart. Tell 00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:25.819 us what the fundraiser is going to be, where 00:07:25.819 --> 00:07:28.920 it's going to be and what people can do. Well, 00:07:29.019 --> 00:07:31.980 it's going to be in Shelby Township. That's Alex's 00:07:31.980 --> 00:07:40.490 hometown. It's at a VFW post. It's on 8311 Wilson 00:07:40.490 --> 00:07:44.910 Drive in Shelby Township. And it's from 1 in 00:07:44.910 --> 00:07:49.069 the afternoon to 7 p .m. And it's a small VFW 00:07:49.069 --> 00:07:51.470 hall. They wanted to keep it in Alex's town, 00:07:51.670 --> 00:07:53.990 so they're hoping that it'll just be a continuous 00:07:53.990 --> 00:08:00.009 flow of folks that can come in and be a part 00:08:00.009 --> 00:08:03.209 of Alex's fundraising day. There'll be prizes, 00:08:03.250 --> 00:08:07.470 of course, 50 -50 raffles. There'll be 50 -50 00:08:07.470 --> 00:08:11.470 that happens probably every hour. And then there'll 00:08:11.470 --> 00:08:15.050 be food served and my chapter will be out there. 00:08:15.449 --> 00:08:20.389 I know that the Vietnam Vets from Chapter 154, 00:08:20.389 --> 00:08:23.430 I've made sure that they all know and hope to 00:08:23.430 --> 00:08:25.449 get some support from them out there that day. 00:08:25.449 --> 00:08:28.129 You'll get support from 154. I'm sorry? You'll 00:08:28.129 --> 00:08:31.310 get support from 154. Yes, they are. They've 00:08:31.310 --> 00:08:36.019 always been there for us and they truly... are 00:08:36.019 --> 00:08:38.360 making it a point to take care of these young 00:08:38.360 --> 00:08:40.820 kids. They have a lot of passion for what's going 00:08:40.820 --> 00:08:44.200 on today and that's a definite positive thing. 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:46.580 Give us that address again and your telephone 00:08:46.580 --> 00:08:52.779 number. That address is 8311 Wilson Drive and 00:08:52.779 --> 00:08:57.299 that's Shelby Township and it's at the VFW Hall. 00:08:58.120 --> 00:09:01.320 It's on Van Dyke, actually it's just off of Van 00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:08.899 Dyke between 24 and 25 Mile Road. Okay. My number 00:09:08.899 --> 00:09:17.379 that I can be reached at is 586 -615 -9975. If 00:09:17.379 --> 00:09:19.159 any of your listeners are looking for any more 00:09:19.159 --> 00:09:22.899 additional information or how we can get them 00:09:22.899 --> 00:09:25.080 out to come out and spend a little bit of time 00:09:25.080 --> 00:09:27.120 with this fundraiser, we'd be happy to let them 00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:30.179 know. Give us your full name again. My name is 00:09:30.179 --> 00:09:34.240 Brad, last name Cook. C -O -O -K. What did you 00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:37.750 do in the military, Brad? I spent about five 00:09:37.750 --> 00:09:40.350 and a half years in the Army. I spent about five 00:09:40.350 --> 00:09:42.750 and a half years actually in the Air Force. I 00:09:42.750 --> 00:09:48.990 was in Desert Storm back in 1991. And about six, 00:09:49.009 --> 00:09:51.929 eight months after that is when I retired and 00:09:51.929 --> 00:09:54.950 got on with life. And about a year and a half, 00:09:54.950 --> 00:10:00.269 two years ago, the president of 154, who is a 00:10:00.269 --> 00:10:02.990 Wolverine hog chapter member, which I also belonged 00:10:02.990 --> 00:10:05.740 to, we found that bikers are very generous people 00:10:05.740 --> 00:10:08.000 and very active with veterans and i've been involved 00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:10.500 with them and he came to me and asked me if i 00:10:10.500 --> 00:10:13.379 would be willing to get this organization up 00:10:13.379 --> 00:10:16.019 and running and uh... i told my thought it was 00:10:16.019 --> 00:10:19.659 time okay good deal and for people that uh... 00:10:19.659 --> 00:10:22.399 didn't get a chance to write that down send an 00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:25.820 email to veterans radio at veterans radio dot 00:10:25.820 --> 00:10:29.159 net and we will email the information to you 00:10:29.159 --> 00:10:31.639 we want to see a lot of uh... people turn out 00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:35.129 and support this young man who lost his legs 00:10:35.129 --> 00:10:40.429 for us, gave up his tomorrows for us. And Brad 00:10:40.429 --> 00:10:42.429 Cook, thank you so much for being on Veterans 00:10:42.429 --> 00:10:44.970 Radio. Well, thank you, Gary. I appreciate your 00:10:44.970 --> 00:10:47.389 time this afternoon. You're welcome, and welcome 00:10:47.389 --> 00:10:53.139 home. Thank you, sir, as you too. Are we going 00:10:53.139 --> 00:10:56.419 to a break right now Bob or are we going to the 00:10:56.419 --> 00:10:58.740 welcome home? Well right now we're gonna go to 00:10:58.740 --> 00:11:01.480 welcome home Gary welcome home each week on veterans 00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:05.139 radio We welcome home servicemen and women who 00:11:05.139 --> 00:11:07.460 in the service of our country have been stationed 00:11:07.460 --> 00:11:13.500 around the world Dateline, South Carolina A celebration 00:11:13.500 --> 00:11:16.179 after a year apart began as friends and family 00:11:16.179 --> 00:11:19.299 gathered at armories across the strait to welcome 00:11:19.299 --> 00:11:22.360 home members of the South Carolina Army National 00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:27.620 Guard's 218th Brigade from a deployment in Afghanistan. 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:30.899 The soldiers, part of the state's largest single 00:11:30.899 --> 00:11:34.059 unit deployment since World War II, are the first 00:11:34.059 --> 00:11:38.460 of some 1 ,600 South Carolina Guard members returning 00:11:38.460 --> 00:11:44.600 home through mid -May. Dateline Boston After 00:11:44.600 --> 00:11:47.200 a year of waiting and worrying local soldiers 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:50.600 families got to say Welcome home to their loved 00:11:50.600 --> 00:11:54.679 ones 60 army reservists from the 719th movement 00:11:54.679 --> 00:11:58.960 control battalion spent 13 months overseas nine 00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:04.080 of those months in Iraq Dateline Rochester, Minnesota 00:12:04.730 --> 00:12:08.190 Police and fire crews escorted 17 Army Reserve 00:12:08.190 --> 00:12:11.549 soldiers with the 79th Military Police Company, 00:12:11.950 --> 00:12:15.289 who returned from 11 months in Baghdad, Iraq. 00:12:15.789 --> 00:12:18.610 The soldiers working at Camp Victory in Baghdad, 00:12:18.909 --> 00:12:22.149 where General David Petraeus was stationed, were 00:12:22.149 --> 00:12:25.009 elements of the 79th Military Police Company 00:12:25.009 --> 00:12:28.639 they've been deployed for. More than any other 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:31.840 military company in Minnesota. Congratulations 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:35.879 guys. Welcome home Dateline Bainbridge, Georgia 00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:39.120 troops from the 78th troop command and a hundred 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:44.059 and hundred and tenths see SSB that's Charlie 00:12:44.059 --> 00:12:47.159 Sierra Sarah Bravo were released to the waiting 00:12:47.159 --> 00:12:50.759 arms of families and friends the unit known as 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:54.419 the Road Hogs came home to an official welcome 00:12:54.419 --> 00:12:58.000 home ceremony and a job well done from Lieutenant 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:02.100 Colonel Roy would Their mission was to transport 00:13:02.100 --> 00:13:04.720 equipment and supplies, and they traveled over 00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:09.019 1 .8 million miles, supporting both combat and 00:13:09.019 --> 00:13:12.580 local missions. Dateline, Fort Stewart, Georgia. 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:15.799 300 soldiers from the 3rd Infantry Division, 00:13:16.259 --> 00:13:19.519 members of the 1st Brigade Combat Team, arrived 00:13:19.519 --> 00:13:22.759 in Fort Stewart to an emotional homecoming scene. 00:13:23.159 --> 00:13:25.700 The soldiers marched through cottonwood trees 00:13:25.700 --> 00:13:29.600 onto Contral Field to awaiting families who had 00:13:29.600 --> 00:13:33.059 rushed in to greet them. The unit had been in 00:13:33.059 --> 00:13:40.759 Iraq for the past 15 months. Hundreds of American 00:13:40.759 --> 00:13:43.940 flags were waving in Delvin to welcome home the 00:13:43.940 --> 00:13:47.860 town's National Guard troops 50 soldiers with 00:13:47.860 --> 00:13:52.539 the 1144 Transportation Motor Transport Battalion 00:13:52.539 --> 00:13:56.360 had waited a year for this moment after serving 00:13:56.360 --> 00:14:02.200 overseas in Kuwait We're back with Veterans Radio. 00:14:02.200 --> 00:14:05.139 We've got a caller just asked where that benefit 00:14:05.139 --> 00:14:08.950 is for the young troop who lost his legs It's 00:14:08.950 --> 00:14:13.409 in Shelby Township at Van Dyke and the address 00:14:13.409 --> 00:14:18.929 is 8311 Wilson Drive and for information call 00:14:18.929 --> 00:14:27.350 Brad Cook at 586 -615 -9975. Now for anybody 00:14:27.350 --> 00:14:30.110 else that wants that information go to veteransradio 00:14:30.110 --> 00:14:34.049 .net, send us an email and we'll email that back 00:14:34.049 --> 00:14:36.210 to you. Glad to hear that there's some people 00:14:36.210 --> 00:14:41.159 out there already wanting to help. Winter Soldier 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:45.139 Winter Soldier was a hearing that was held in 00:14:45.139 --> 00:14:52.460 Detroit by What year was that? 1972 or 71 was 00:14:52.460 --> 00:14:55.500 held by members of the Vietnam Veterans Against 00:14:55.500 --> 00:15:00.259 the War hosted by John Kerry who was then an 00:15:00.259 --> 00:15:04.419 unknown funded by Jane Fonda with the several 00:15:04.419 --> 00:15:07.759 concerts that she put on and there was a lot 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:11.750 of things that came out of Winter Soldier that 00:15:11.750 --> 00:15:17.730 created a reputation, a bad reputation for Vietnam 00:15:17.730 --> 00:15:21.850 vets that continues to this day. Recently there 00:15:21.850 --> 00:15:25.330 was a Winter Soldier II hearing held. We're going 00:15:25.330 --> 00:15:27.529 to talk about both of those and right now we're 00:15:27.529 --> 00:15:31.350 going to talk to Scott Sweatt about Winter Soldier 00:15:31.350 --> 00:15:34.269 I that took place in Detroit. Good morning Scott. 00:15:34.649 --> 00:15:36.789 Hi Gary, how are you doing? Well I'm terrific, 00:15:36.809 --> 00:15:40.330 thank you. feeling on top of the world, being 00:15:40.330 --> 00:15:43.929 able to get the word out. Tell us what your position 00:15:43.929 --> 00:15:49.350 is with Winter Soldier. Well, I wrote the website 00:15:49.350 --> 00:15:54.149 WinterSoldier .com in 2004, early during the 00:15:54.149 --> 00:15:56.090 presidential campaign that of course featured 00:15:56.090 --> 00:15:58.950 John Kerry, a key participant in that event. 00:15:59.750 --> 00:16:03.690 And the idea of the website was to shed some 00:16:03.690 --> 00:16:07.379 light on the propaganda campaign. that the Vietnam 00:16:07.379 --> 00:16:10.940 veterans against the war and Carrie and Fonda 00:16:10.940 --> 00:16:14.720 and a number of other radicals put together to 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:20.840 try and convey the idea to the public that the 00:16:20.840 --> 00:16:24.240 American troops in Vietnam were committing war 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:26.899 crimes routinely and on a widespread basis, which 00:16:26.899 --> 00:16:29.580 of course is not the case. Okay, let's cover 00:16:29.580 --> 00:16:32.980 it right up front. My Lai. Everybody knows about 00:16:32.980 --> 00:16:36.509 My Lai. My Lai happened. But what I tell students 00:16:36.509 --> 00:16:39.250 when I'm talking to them is, what's notable about 00:16:39.250 --> 00:16:42.669 Meli is the fact that it's notable. The other 00:16:42.669 --> 00:16:45.850 side, that was their modus operandi to go in 00:16:45.850 --> 00:16:48.710 and wipe out villages, especially up in the mountains 00:16:48.710 --> 00:16:53.669 where the hill tribes were. But that doesn't 00:16:53.669 --> 00:16:57.070 excuse it for our guys doing it. And a lot of 00:16:57.070 --> 00:16:59.590 troops feel that the officers' heads should roll. 00:17:00.570 --> 00:17:02.950 A good friend of mine said, I can understand 00:17:02.950 --> 00:17:05.759 the rage. that took place that caused people 00:17:05.759 --> 00:17:08.640 to want to do it, but that's why we have officers 00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:13.859 to prevent it. Well, exactly. If Meli had in 00:17:13.859 --> 00:17:17.660 fact been a standard policy for the US, we would 00:17:17.660 --> 00:17:20.240 never know the name. The fact is that it was 00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:23.759 a very unusual event in the war. Nonetheless, 00:17:23.940 --> 00:17:27.700 it gave the leftist tremendous propaganda lever 00:17:27.700 --> 00:17:31.000 to use against the US by saying that this was 00:17:31.400 --> 00:17:33.900 how all of the millions of troops in Vietnam 00:17:33.900 --> 00:17:36.940 were conducting themselves. So what was the purpose 00:17:36.940 --> 00:17:39.619 of Winter Soldier and how did it get its name? 00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:45.380 Well, the name Winter Soldier came, it was a 00:17:45.380 --> 00:17:49.319 play on the term summer soldier, which was used 00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:53.880 by Thomas Paine in one of his famous essays during 00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:58.259 the Revolutionary War. The purpose of it, of 00:17:58.259 --> 00:18:01.160 course, was to convey war crimes propaganda. 00:18:02.059 --> 00:18:06.180 The event was, in theory, organized by disgruntled 00:18:06.180 --> 00:18:10.599 veterans, but what is less widely known is the 00:18:10.599 --> 00:18:13.480 extent to which top leaders of the radical left, 00:18:13.599 --> 00:18:16.079 who had already met with North Vietnamese leaders 00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:19.660 in Hanoi, were involved. Tom Hayden was there, 00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:22.279 Sidney Peck, who is the leader of the National 00:18:22.279 --> 00:18:24.640 Coalition Against War, Racism, and Repression. 00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:29.319 Howard Zinn, Richard Falk, all these people had 00:18:29.319 --> 00:18:32.480 made the pilgrimage to North Vietnam to coordinate 00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:34.740 their efforts with North Vietnamese leaders. 00:18:35.660 --> 00:18:38.880 And we're very much invested in trying to help 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:41.720 the other side win the war. And for those in 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:45.079 the Ann Arbor area who think of Tom Hayden as 00:18:45.079 --> 00:18:48.240 only a congressman from Southern California, 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:51.119 he's a University of Michigan graduate who was 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:53.819 the editor of the Michigan Daily during his time 00:18:53.819 --> 00:19:04.380 here. What was the method of conducting the winter 00:19:04.380 --> 00:19:07.599 soldiers? What did they do? It was a three -day 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:10.779 conference held in Howard Johnson's outside of 00:19:10.779 --> 00:19:15.559 Detroit from January 31st to February 2nd of 00:19:15.559 --> 00:19:20.369 1971. And what they did was they had about 100 00:19:20.369 --> 00:19:24.009 guys get up and tell horrific stories about atrocities 00:19:24.009 --> 00:19:26.529 that they said they had either witnessed or participated 00:19:26.529 --> 00:19:31.849 in. Later investigations showed that while most 00:19:31.849 --> 00:19:35.470 of these men were in fact in the military, a 00:19:35.470 --> 00:19:39.349 majority of them were not in combat. And when 00:19:39.349 --> 00:19:44.049 the U .S. Army for example investigated The claims 00:19:44.049 --> 00:19:46.990 that they had made, many retracted their stories 00:19:46.990 --> 00:19:50.029 and most of the others were completely unable 00:19:50.029 --> 00:19:53.410 to provide any evidence to support them. So it's 00:19:53.410 --> 00:19:56.009 quite clear this was a propaganda event. It was 00:19:56.009 --> 00:19:58.609 not an attempt to shed light on what was actually 00:19:58.609 --> 00:20:02.410 happening on the ground in Vietnam. Well, this 00:20:02.410 --> 00:20:05.250 is a hot issue. We've got a caller on the line 00:20:05.250 --> 00:20:09.650 already. Roger, is it? Put him through, Bob. 00:20:12.130 --> 00:20:15.460 Roger? You've called into veterans radio? No, 00:20:15.460 --> 00:20:17.059 this is Lorne from Western New York on Line 1. 00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:19.519 Okay, hi Lorne. Yeah, good morning, Gary, how 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:23.559 are you? I'm good, thank you. Yeah, your last 00:20:23.559 --> 00:20:25.839 caller there's got it right on the money about 00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:29.319 that Winter Soldiers program. It was definitely 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:32.079 proven that most of these guys were frauds right 00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:35.759 from the get -go. It was a propaganda move, it's 00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:39.099 what it was, and I one time did an article in 00:20:39.099 --> 00:20:41.640 the American Legion magazine about that telling... 00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:43.799 Basically, John Kerry should name the names, 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:49.059 and if at that time he was a reserve lieutenant 00:20:49.059 --> 00:20:51.140 in the United States Navy, he had an obligation. 00:20:51.180 --> 00:20:53.880 At that time, if he knew of war crimes committed, 00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:56.559 he had an obligation to turn these names over 00:20:56.559 --> 00:20:59.680 for prosecution. There's no statute of limitations 00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:02.119 on war crimes. If he knew about any, he should 00:21:02.119 --> 00:21:05.220 have done something about it. He claims that 00:21:05.220 --> 00:21:07.819 even his crew was involved in things like this, 00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:10.200 which begs the question, who was in command of 00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:13.589 his vessel? Was it the Boatswain's mate or was 00:21:13.589 --> 00:21:16.789 it himself? If he could not control his own five 00:21:16.789 --> 00:21:19.589 -man crew on a swift boat from committing atrocities, 00:21:20.089 --> 00:21:21.769 how could he ever think he could be Commander 00:21:21.769 --> 00:21:23.849 in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States? 00:21:24.730 --> 00:21:28.869 That's one question right there. As far as factually, 00:21:29.730 --> 00:21:34.589 nothing he said stood up to any kind of inquiries 00:21:34.589 --> 00:21:36.190 at all. When they went to looking into these 00:21:36.190 --> 00:21:40.319 things, as your last caller stipulated, None 00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:42.019 of these things could be borne out. And that's 00:21:42.019 --> 00:21:44.700 not the way American troops acted anyway. I mean, 00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:46.759 I served over there with the United States Marine 00:21:46.759 --> 00:21:49.440 Corps. We went into villages. Our corpsmen set 00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:52.119 up shop to inoculate the villagers and the children. 00:21:52.779 --> 00:21:56.440 We dug wells. We worked on the pacification program. 00:21:57.119 --> 00:22:00.380 There was a $250 fine for shooting a water buffalo. 00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:02.799 We didn't have to be told what it would be for 00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:05.660 shooting an unarmed civilian. I mean, we just 00:22:05.660 --> 00:22:08.609 knew this. I never witnessed anything like this. 00:22:08.849 --> 00:22:11.549 I served with honorable men and under honorable 00:22:11.549 --> 00:22:14.170 men, and I just can't imagine anything like this 00:22:14.170 --> 00:22:24.390 going on with professional soldiers. Almost everybody 00:22:24.390 --> 00:22:27.430 I've ever talked to that served in Vietnam. Thanks 00:22:27.430 --> 00:22:29.750 again, Lauren. Yeah, I certainly hope people 00:22:29.750 --> 00:22:31.829 put that in perspective with today's troops, 00:22:31.950 --> 00:22:33.470 too, when they start hearing the same thing, 00:22:33.630 --> 00:22:34.970 because the same kind of people are going to 00:22:34.970 --> 00:22:36.690 be out here to do the same thing. And they're 00:22:36.690 --> 00:22:38.269 doing it. We're going to talk about that later 00:22:38.269 --> 00:22:41.210 on. Thanks again. Thanks again, Lauren. Uh -huh. 00:22:41.410 --> 00:22:45.609 Bye -bye. I'd like to comment on that if I could. 00:22:45.710 --> 00:22:48.589 Sure, please. Of course, the Swift Boat Veterans 00:22:48.589 --> 00:22:52.930 for Truth in 2004 made exactly the same point 00:22:52.930 --> 00:22:56.130 that the caller just emphasized, which was that 00:22:56.130 --> 00:22:59.950 they served right with Cary in boats next to 00:22:59.950 --> 00:23:02.750 him and in one case his own gunner, and they 00:23:02.750 --> 00:23:07.930 strenuously denied that the Brown Water Navy 00:23:07.930 --> 00:23:12.230 was committing those sorts of acts, and they 00:23:12.230 --> 00:23:15.329 deeply resented Cary's testimony to the contrary. 00:23:15.690 --> 00:23:18.250 I would like them to point out, though, that 00:23:18.250 --> 00:23:20.910 Kerry didn't exactly admit to committing war 00:23:20.910 --> 00:23:23.769 crimes. What he did instead was pretend that 00:23:23.769 --> 00:23:27.569 fairly routine military actions were wrong or 00:23:27.569 --> 00:23:30.089 criminal. He said, yes, I committed the same 00:23:30.089 --> 00:23:32.569 sorts of atrocities that thousands of other soldiers 00:23:32.569 --> 00:23:35.430 did. In that I took part in shooting in free 00:23:35.430 --> 00:23:38.430 fire zones, I conducted harassment and interdiction 00:23:38.430 --> 00:23:41.069 fire. I used .50 caliber machine guns, which 00:23:41.069 --> 00:23:43.329 we were granted in order to use and so forth. 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:48.579 This was all part of the standard VDAW propaganda. 00:23:48.779 --> 00:23:51.339 They wanted people to think that free fire zones 00:23:51.339 --> 00:23:54.839 and harassment interdiction fire were euphemisms 00:23:54.839 --> 00:23:57.359 for slaughtering civilians, when in fact they 00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:00.460 were what the military calls fire control measures. 00:24:01.180 --> 00:24:03.859 The Free Fire Zone was essentially a way to coordinate 00:24:03.859 --> 00:24:06.339 between multiple groups that were sharing a battle 00:24:06.339 --> 00:24:08.960 area without having to go through a higher authority. 00:24:09.660 --> 00:24:11.380 So what they were counting on was that people 00:24:11.380 --> 00:24:13.559 wouldn't understand that these ominous sounding 00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:18.339 terms really didn't mean what the VAW tried to 00:24:18.339 --> 00:24:21.500 convince people that they did mean. When these 00:24:21.500 --> 00:24:25.339 people testified, their testimony was entered 00:24:25.339 --> 00:24:28.200 into Congress. It was delivered to them by John 00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:31.609 Kerry. Well, not actually by Kerry. It was read 00:24:31.609 --> 00:24:36.609 into the record by a Senator. By read into the 00:24:36.609 --> 00:24:38.650 record. He just mentions it and then they print 00:24:38.650 --> 00:24:42.329 it out. Correct. But I mean, who delivered it 00:24:42.329 --> 00:24:48.109 to the Senator? Well, Kerry testified on behalf 00:24:48.109 --> 00:24:52.890 of the Winter Soldier Charges in April of 1971 00:24:52.890 --> 00:24:55.990 in front of the Senate Committee, Fulbright's 00:24:55.990 --> 00:24:59.390 Committee on Foreign Relations. the event that 00:24:59.390 --> 00:25:02.750 made him famous, and the reason it did was because 00:25:02.750 --> 00:25:06.009 at the time, of course, the mainstream media 00:25:06.009 --> 00:25:09.170 just consisted of three networks, and they all 00:25:09.170 --> 00:25:11.750 shone a bright spotlight on Kerry's testimony. 00:25:12.089 --> 00:25:14.809 They treated everything that the VVAWs said as 00:25:14.809 --> 00:25:17.089 though it was real and had been checked out, 00:25:17.589 --> 00:25:21.369 and in general gave tremendous credibility to 00:25:21.369 --> 00:25:25.250 these completely unverified and unsubstantiated 00:25:25.250 --> 00:25:29.000 charges. without doing even the most basic work 00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:31.200 of the investigation. Okay, let's talk about 00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:33.839 that. The show is not about Kerry, it's about 00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:37.019 Winter Soldier and it's about the people that 00:25:37.019 --> 00:25:40.359 testified at Winter Soldier. How many people 00:25:40.359 --> 00:25:46.740 testified there? About 110. And all of them turned 00:25:46.740 --> 00:25:50.059 in notarized statements? No, none of them turned 00:25:50.059 --> 00:25:53.440 in affidavits or sworn statements of any sort. 00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:57.200 Although, Cary repeatedly promised that they 00:25:57.200 --> 00:26:01.660 would. That never happened. Okay, so were any 00:26:01.660 --> 00:26:05.900 of these people subsequently investigated? Well, 00:26:05.980 --> 00:26:07.940 it depends on what you mean by investigated. 00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:13.799 Once the charges became public and famous through 00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:18.819 Cary's agency, the military was tasked with investigating 00:26:18.819 --> 00:26:21.319 the charges that were made at Winter Soldier. 00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:25.799 and they proceeded to do so in detail. We don't 00:26:25.799 --> 00:26:29.220 have the reports from the Navy investigative 00:26:29.220 --> 00:26:34.240 services, but we do have a summary that was written 00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:37.099 in the book American Vietnam by the historian 00:26:37.099 --> 00:26:42.960 Gunter Louis. He said that the charges fell apart 00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:45.180 under investigation, that some of the people 00:26:45.180 --> 00:26:48.220 that were there were not who they claimed to 00:26:48.220 --> 00:26:53.000 be. So, stolen identity? There were a couple 00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:57.319 cases, he said, where they contacted the people 00:26:57.319 --> 00:26:59.440 who had supposedly spoken there and they said 00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:02.480 they were not ever in Detroit. Okay, we've got 00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:06.960 15 seconds left. How many of those people were 00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:09.960 actually in Vietnam that testified? 8 seconds? 00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:12.019 Probably most of them, but the key isn't whether 00:27:12.019 --> 00:27:13.519 they were there, it's whether they were telling 00:27:13.519 --> 00:27:16.140 the truth. Okay, we're going to a break now. 00:27:16.970 --> 00:27:19.769 We'll be back right after these messages. We're 00:27:19.769 --> 00:27:22.849 going to be wrapping up Winter Soldier 1 and 00:27:22.849 --> 00:27:25.410 going to Winter Soldier 2. You're listening to 00:27:25.410 --> 00:27:28.309 Veterans Radio. The Medal of Honor is the highest 00:27:28.309 --> 00:27:30.490 award for valor in combat given a member of the 00:27:30.490 --> 00:27:32.569 Armed Forces of the United States. There have 00:27:32.569 --> 00:27:35.529 been over 3 ,400 recipients of the nation's highest 00:27:35.529 --> 00:27:39.190 award. This is one of them. Specialist George 00:27:39.190 --> 00:27:41.630 Ingalls threw himself on a live grenade to save 00:27:41.630 --> 00:27:46.160 his comrades. Details after this. Engels accompanied 00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:48.660 his squad on a night ambush mission in Vietnam. 00:27:49.259 --> 00:27:51.799 Shortly after the ambush was established, an 00:27:51.799 --> 00:27:53.759 enemy soldier entered the killing zone and was 00:27:53.759 --> 00:27:56.759 shot when he tried to evade capture. Other enemy 00:27:56.759 --> 00:27:58.980 soldiers were expected to enter the area and 00:27:58.980 --> 00:28:01.180 the ambush was maintained in the same location. 00:28:02.200 --> 00:28:05.099 Two quiet hours passed without incident. Suddenly, 00:28:05.339 --> 00:28:07.480 a hand grenade was thrown from the nearby dense 00:28:07.480 --> 00:28:09.700 undergrowth into the center of the squad's position. 00:28:10.089 --> 00:28:12.690 The grenade did not explode, but shortly thereafter, 00:28:13.150 --> 00:28:15.490 a second grenade landed directly between Ingalls 00:28:15.490 --> 00:28:18.730 and a nearby comrade. Although he could have 00:28:18.730 --> 00:28:21.210 jumped to a safe position, Ingalls, in a spontaneous 00:28:21.210 --> 00:28:24.130 act of great courage, threw himself on the grenade 00:28:24.130 --> 00:28:27.750 and absorbed its full blast. The explosion mortally 00:28:27.750 --> 00:28:30.309 wounded him, but his heroic actions saved the 00:28:30.309 --> 00:28:32.569 lives of the remaining members of his squad. 00:28:34.490 --> 00:28:36.470 The Medal of Honor series is a production of 00:28:36.470 --> 00:28:39.839 Veterans Radio. Okay, we're back on Veterans 00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:42.359 Radio and we're talking about Winter Soldier 00:28:42.359 --> 00:28:45.599 with Scott Sweatt. Scott, we're going to wrap 00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:48.779 this up and then we're going to be going to Winter 00:28:48.779 --> 00:28:51.859 Soldier 2 with George Mellinger. But first off, 00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:54.380 you have a website. What is the website called? 00:28:55.299 --> 00:28:58.339 WinterSoldier .com. And it would be Winter Soldier 00:28:58.339 --> 00:29:01.619 plural or singular? Singular. Okay, WinterSoldier 00:29:01.619 --> 00:29:04.960 .com. I've gone through it a number of times 00:29:04.960 --> 00:29:10.940 and I see a section on FBI files. For a history 00:29:10.940 --> 00:29:14.200 buff, this is tremendous. How many files do you 00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:16.980 have on there and what might somebody find? I 00:29:16.980 --> 00:29:20.640 think there's something over 20 ,000 pages of 00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:24.799 files which represent the FBI's investigation 00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:27.839 into the actions of the Vietnam Veterans Against 00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:33.200 the War in the early 1970s. Are there any real 00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:36.519 fire bombs in there? Well, there's a lot of interesting 00:29:36.519 --> 00:29:40.339 information. Some of it touches on the VDAW's 00:29:40.339 --> 00:29:44.000 discussion of whether to assassinate half a dozen 00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:47.700 pro -war United States Senators, which took place 00:29:47.700 --> 00:29:51.160 in late 1971. So I would say that's fairly explosive. 00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:56.160 What about KGB involvement? Is there anything 00:29:56.160 --> 00:30:00.619 that touches on that? Not directly. However, 00:30:01.339 --> 00:30:04.000 there is a great deal that connects the VVAW 00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:07.500 to the leaders of the Viet Cong and also the 00:30:07.500 --> 00:30:12.079 North Vietnamese Communists. Scott, I thank you 00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:14.660 for being on and I really would like people, 00:30:14.900 --> 00:30:16.900 whether they're doubters or believers, to go 00:30:16.900 --> 00:30:20.619 to wintersoldier .com. There's a wealth of information 00:30:20.619 --> 00:30:24.829 and if you take time and look it over, You may 00:30:24.829 --> 00:30:27.069 change your mind, you may not change your mind, 00:30:27.170 --> 00:30:29.829 or you may reinforce positions that you already 00:30:29.829 --> 00:30:33.390 have, but go to wintersoldier .com. And if you 00:30:33.390 --> 00:30:37.589 have questions, email us at veteransradio .net. 00:30:38.089 --> 00:30:40.269 Scott Sweatt, thank you very much for being on 00:30:40.269 --> 00:30:42.650 Veterans Radio. Gary, thanks for having me on. 00:30:42.890 --> 00:30:50.130 You're very welcome. Right now, we want to have 00:30:50.130 --> 00:30:53.950 George Mellinger on the phone. George, you're 00:30:53.950 --> 00:30:57.230 an expert on Winter Soldier II or you're a self 00:30:57.230 --> 00:30:59.809 -taught expert. Tell me about your background. 00:31:00.730 --> 00:31:06.670 Well, my background is that I'm another of the 00:31:06.670 --> 00:31:12.829 Vietnam vets, but due to circumstances, I was 00:31:12.829 --> 00:31:17.240 allowed to attend the Winter Soldier II hearings 00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:22.660 in Washington this March. So that's my basic 00:31:22.660 --> 00:31:26.819 expertise. Tell us who organized those. Pardon? 00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:32.259 Tell us who organized those hearings. Back, I 00:31:32.259 --> 00:31:39.059 believe it was July of 2006, members of the old 00:31:39.059 --> 00:31:44.039 Vietnam Veterans Against the War, the VVAW, at 00:31:44.039 --> 00:31:48.099 one of their annual meet get togethers, decided 00:31:48.099 --> 00:31:53.160 to organize a group called Iraqi Veterans Against 00:31:53.160 --> 00:32:00.960 the War, which was modeled on the old VVAW. This 00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:05.160 organization, the IVAW, Iraqi Veterans Against 00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:11.319 the War, was essentially founded by the VVAW. 00:32:11.579 --> 00:32:17.960 and was modeled on them. And in most other respects, 00:32:18.420 --> 00:32:22.079 from their political orientation to their mode 00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:28.180 of operation, they resembled a younger version 00:32:28.180 --> 00:32:33.420 of VDAW. And were there the older Vietnam veterans 00:32:33.420 --> 00:32:36.359 against the war in attendance? At this conference, 00:32:36.579 --> 00:32:39.220 yes, they certainly were. How big was the room? 00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:45.400 Pardon? How big was the room? I'm pretty poor 00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:51.460 on estimating sizes of rooms, but they essentially 00:32:51.460 --> 00:32:57.700 took over for four days the Kirkland Center at 00:32:57.700 --> 00:33:06.880 the George Meany Labor College in Bethesda. It 00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:13.819 was the National Labor College. The building 00:33:13.819 --> 00:33:19.539 was essentially turned over to this IVAW hearings. 00:33:21.019 --> 00:33:27.220 The informal impression I had was that the IVAW 00:33:27.220 --> 00:33:32.460 was probably slightly more numerous than their 00:33:32.460 --> 00:33:38.329 younger IVAW proteges and they certainly seem 00:33:38.329 --> 00:33:43.549 to be the ones who were in charge both as advisors 00:33:43.549 --> 00:33:49.450 and guides and also as security. Okay, what revelations 00:33:49.450 --> 00:33:54.029 came out of this hearing? The essential revelation 00:33:54.029 --> 00:33:56.309 that came out to cut right to the bottom line 00:33:56.309 --> 00:34:01.450 is war is unpleasant and people get hurt. And 00:34:01.450 --> 00:34:04.509 if you're fighting anywhere where there are civilians, 00:34:04.789 --> 00:34:07.750 civilians are going to get caught in the crossfire 00:34:07.750 --> 00:34:11.789 and injured. I think anybody who's ever been 00:34:11.789 --> 00:34:16.309 in any other war knows this as a matter of fact. 00:34:17.829 --> 00:34:23.289 It's a sad and reprehensible truth, but it's 00:34:23.289 --> 00:34:28.190 always been that way. And nothing was brought 00:34:28.190 --> 00:34:32.599 out at Winter Soldier II. that suggested anything 00:34:32.599 --> 00:34:37.840 else. Myself, I heard no evidence of anything 00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:41.179 that could possibly be construed as an actual 00:34:41.179 --> 00:34:44.159 war crime or deliberate atrocity. And you sat 00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:47.780 there through how many of the hearings? I spent 00:34:47.780 --> 00:34:51.820 the entire of Friday at the hearings. I did not 00:34:51.820 --> 00:34:56.639 return on Saturday because the panels that were 00:34:56.639 --> 00:35:00.280 up for discussion there were such that They did 00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:04.719 not seem to promise any potential of revealing 00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:07.239 further atrocities. What was the title of the 00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:12.579 panel that you attended? I attended actually 00:35:12.579 --> 00:35:18.159 four different panels and I believe the first 00:35:18.159 --> 00:35:27.139 title was on, let's see, it was Rules of Engagement 00:35:27.139 --> 00:35:30.880 Part 1. And then there was the crisis in veterans' 00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:36.880 health care, the corporate pillaging and military 00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:40.780 contractors, and rules of engagement part two. 00:35:42.320 --> 00:35:46.500 These were the panels where the participants 00:35:46.500 --> 00:35:49.960 promised to deliver their tales of atrocity. 00:35:50.909 --> 00:35:54.489 Two of the panels were rules of engagement one 00:35:54.489 --> 00:35:58.090 and rules of engagement two. Our military has 00:35:58.090 --> 00:36:01.050 always had rules of engagement which has frustrated 00:36:01.050 --> 00:36:04.969 our troops in battle at times and early in the 00:36:04.969 --> 00:36:07.750 Vietnam War even when fired upon they had to 00:36:07.750 --> 00:36:11.349 get permission to fire back and that's the case 00:36:11.349 --> 00:36:16.389 even in Gulf War I where they were being fired 00:36:16.389 --> 00:36:19.170 on and had to get permission of fire back because 00:36:19.170 --> 00:36:23.880 it was inside a populated area. You know, you 00:36:23.880 --> 00:36:26.079 can say these are anecdotal, but I talked to 00:36:26.079 --> 00:36:29.659 people that were there. So for the people listening 00:36:29.659 --> 00:36:34.219 who thinks that it's a Wild West show, there 00:36:34.219 --> 00:36:36.900 are rules of engagement and combat. Is that right? 00:36:37.539 --> 00:36:43.380 Absolutely. And the fact is, as in Vietnam, as 00:36:43.380 --> 00:36:46.599 you and I both know, these rules of engagement 00:36:46.599 --> 00:36:50.880 were intended to be restrictive. In many cases, 00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:56.760 they kept people from taking action, which might 00:36:56.760 --> 00:37:00.619 have protected their own safety and might have 00:37:00.619 --> 00:37:03.900 reduced our own casualties, though at the risk 00:37:03.900 --> 00:37:08.739 of civilian casualties. What was the worst example 00:37:08.739 --> 00:37:12.239 that you heard about the closest to an atrocity, 00:37:12.280 --> 00:37:14.739 or what atrocity did you hear about at Winter 00:37:14.739 --> 00:37:21.099 Soldier 2? One incident, one individual discussed 00:37:21.099 --> 00:37:29.539 an occasion where he shot a civilian, someone 00:37:29.539 --> 00:37:33.260 who he referred to as, quote, a Batman, unquote, 00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:37.679 and from his description of the incident, it 00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:40.519 sounded to me as if this was something which 00:37:40.519 --> 00:37:45.639 could have been a basis for investigation or 00:37:45.639 --> 00:37:51.820 even trial. Had it been verifiable? In terms 00:37:51.820 --> 00:37:55.019 of verifiable, we mean we want to know where 00:37:55.019 --> 00:38:01.000 it happened, precisely. When it happened, who 00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:03.099 was involved? Were there any other witnesses 00:38:03.099 --> 00:38:07.739 who could confirm that it happened? Basic proof 00:38:07.739 --> 00:38:13.500 as contrasted with made up or imagined war stories. 00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:17.590 Did that man or woman report it? at the time 00:38:17.590 --> 00:38:21.190 that it happened? Apparently not. And apparently 00:38:21.190 --> 00:38:25.250 also, uh, and let me also... I can't say I blame 00:38:25.250 --> 00:38:29.630 him. ...state at this point that none of the 00:38:29.630 --> 00:38:34.630 charges that were made at Winter Soldier II were 00:38:34.630 --> 00:38:37.869 allowed to, were willing to be testified to were 00:38:37.869 --> 00:38:43.329 signed under oath. You know, and giving them 00:38:43.329 --> 00:38:45.969 a little bit of benefit of the doubt there, had 00:38:45.969 --> 00:38:52.139 I... done something in a war and if it was accidental 00:38:52.139 --> 00:38:55.360 or if it wasn't accidental, I mean, I don't know 00:38:55.360 --> 00:38:57.539 that I'd sign a statement to it saying, yes, 00:38:57.539 --> 00:39:01.460 I'm a murderer, because the penalties are harsh 00:39:01.460 --> 00:39:04.679 in the military. Military law is a lot different 00:39:04.679 --> 00:39:07.679 than civilian law and people don't quite comprehend 00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:11.179 it. And if you are found guilty of something 00:39:11.179 --> 00:39:14.880 like that and you're sent away for a long time 00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:18.429 and it's not an easy life, Absolutely not, but 00:39:18.429 --> 00:39:22.469 if you are not willing to actually back up your 00:39:22.469 --> 00:39:26.190 stories, you shouldn't go forward and produce 00:39:26.190 --> 00:39:29.989 them as public tales. I agree with you on that 00:39:29.989 --> 00:39:32.670 and I believe that everybody should be investigated 00:39:32.670 --> 00:39:34.670 if they are making that type of a statement. 00:39:35.090 --> 00:39:36.710 If you're listening to Veterans Radio, we're 00:39:36.710 --> 00:39:39.429 going to be going to our last break and we want 00:39:39.429 --> 00:39:42.230 you to stay on and hear the rest of Winter Soldier 00:39:42.230 --> 00:39:49.159 2. And you're back on Veterans Radio. We're listening 00:39:49.159 --> 00:39:54.300 to George Mellinger talking about Winter Soldier 00:39:54.300 --> 00:39:57.960 2. Before we go any further, I do want to say 00:39:57.960 --> 00:40:02.219 that I sent out emails to members of Vietnam 00:40:02.219 --> 00:40:06.559 Veterans Against the War and Iraq Veterans Against 00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:09.420 the War. I went to a couple of websites and I 00:40:09.420 --> 00:40:12.659 posted on there that this show was going to be 00:40:12.659 --> 00:40:16.119 playing. And that included our telephone number, 00:40:16.139 --> 00:40:19.880 so there's been a lot of effort to get these 00:40:19.880 --> 00:40:23.340 people to phone in and give their side of the 00:40:23.340 --> 00:40:25.800 story. Haven't heard from anybody yet, but we're 00:40:25.800 --> 00:40:27.760 going to give out our telephone number right 00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:31.119 now in case somebody wants to call in and comment 00:40:31.119 --> 00:40:38.320 one way or the other. Veterans Radio is 877 -573 00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:47.920 -7825. 877 -573 -7825 and we're back with George 00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:53.500 Mellinger. George, you were allowed to enter 00:40:53.500 --> 00:40:57.199 that room and were you allowed to tape the hearings? 00:40:58.039 --> 00:41:02.659 No, this was one of the controversial things. 00:41:03.559 --> 00:41:08.340 We were not allowed to tape. We were also supposedly 00:41:08.340 --> 00:41:12.940 not allowed to take film or other photographs, 00:41:13.500 --> 00:41:17.400 they were very restrictive about who they allowed 00:41:17.400 --> 00:41:23.800 to enter and how they treated us while we were 00:41:23.800 --> 00:41:29.960 there. There was at least one individual who 00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:33.460 was in charge of the program from IVAW who did 00:41:33.460 --> 00:41:40.010 treat us very fairly, who let us in and who assured 00:41:40.010 --> 00:41:44.090 that we were treated well while we were there. 00:41:44.690 --> 00:41:50.030 However, other IVAW members and officials treated 00:41:50.030 --> 00:41:53.650 us as if we were an obviously hostile force. 00:41:54.750 --> 00:41:57.809 A couple of the other bloggers who were in attendance 00:41:57.809 --> 00:42:02.250 even were escorted to and from the bathroom. 00:42:04.570 --> 00:42:09.340 There were guards stations throughout the building 00:42:09.340 --> 00:42:13.380 in front of virtually any and all doors to make 00:42:13.380 --> 00:42:17.079 sure that nobody went where they were not permitted 00:42:17.079 --> 00:42:19.679 to be. Okay, so you're a blogger and there are 00:42:19.679 --> 00:42:21.900 other bloggers there. What is your blog site? 00:42:23.320 --> 00:42:30.159 My blog site is called veteranamericans .com. 00:42:30.579 --> 00:42:33.960 Would you email that to us? at veteransradio 00:42:33.960 --> 00:42:38.039 .net so that we can respond for anybody else 00:42:38.039 --> 00:42:40.980 that wants to find your blog site. Absolutely. 00:42:41.380 --> 00:42:43.460 I'll do that as soon as we get off the air. Good 00:42:43.460 --> 00:42:46.440 deal. You go to veteransradio .net, send us an 00:42:46.440 --> 00:42:51.480 email with the link to your website and we'll 00:42:51.480 --> 00:42:53.820 send it out to anybody. Incidentally, talking 00:42:53.820 --> 00:42:55.880 about these confessions that brought to mind 00:42:55.880 --> 00:43:00.139 the very, very famous case during the Vietnam 00:43:00.139 --> 00:43:03.260 War. A photograph that everybody remembers that 00:43:03.260 --> 00:43:06.179 just tears at their heart of a napalm strike 00:43:06.179 --> 00:43:09.360 had taken place on a village and a young girl 00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:11.820 who was probably about nine or ten years old 00:43:11.820 --> 00:43:15.059 was running away from the village towards a cameraman, 00:43:15.460 --> 00:43:18.239 her clothes were burned off of her, her arms 00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:22.559 were out and she had been badly burned by napalm. 00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:25.820 Horrible, horrible photograph, horrible incident. 00:43:26.659 --> 00:43:29.559 The assumption was always made that it was American 00:43:29.559 --> 00:43:34.389 planes. that had dropped that napalm, it was 00:43:34.389 --> 00:43:38.570 a totally South Vietnamese Air Force operation, 00:43:39.190 --> 00:43:43.630 including the forward ground observer called 00:43:43.630 --> 00:43:48.289 in the airstrike. Now, not long ago, that lady 00:43:48.289 --> 00:43:51.969 who is now a lady and has managed to get out 00:43:51.969 --> 00:43:55.179 of the Vietnam and lives in Canada where she's 00:43:55.179 --> 00:43:58.159 married and had kids she was invited to speak 00:43:58.159 --> 00:44:01.579 at the wall in Washington DC and while she was 00:44:01.579 --> 00:44:05.519 there a man came up to her crying and apologizing 00:44:05.519 --> 00:44:08.360 to her that he was the one that called in the 00:44:08.360 --> 00:44:12.489 airstrike made national news and she forgave 00:44:12.489 --> 00:44:16.269 him and it was just an unbelievable story. Well, 00:44:16.369 --> 00:44:19.449 it was an unbelievable story. Turned out he was 00:44:19.449 --> 00:44:21.989 a fraud. He didn't call in the air strike. He 00:44:21.989 --> 00:44:25.110 wasn't anywhere near that part of Vietnam. What 00:44:25.110 --> 00:44:28.250 do we have here? Does that relate to any of these 00:44:28.250 --> 00:44:31.110 people that are claiming that they have committed 00:44:31.110 --> 00:44:35.150 atrocities? Absolutely. This is one of those 00:44:35.150 --> 00:44:39.380 things that has been a a spiritual mystery to 00:44:39.380 --> 00:44:45.519 me is why people want to advance such unfortunate 00:44:45.519 --> 00:44:48.320 claims about themselves or even to pretend to 00:44:48.320 --> 00:44:52.239 be what they are not. But the truth is there 00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:56.519 are large numbers of fake veterans. We call them 00:44:56.519 --> 00:45:01.059 wannabes, individuals who have either little 00:45:01.059 --> 00:45:08.179 or no military service, who advance unusual claims 00:45:08.179 --> 00:45:12.820 of either heroism or more often atrocities in 00:45:12.820 --> 00:45:15.300 their own behalf. This was one of the things 00:45:15.300 --> 00:45:18.480 that actually got us set up and brought in to 00:45:18.480 --> 00:45:23.139 the Winter Soldier. In the wake of these, in 00:45:23.139 --> 00:45:25.400 preceding these hearings, there had been a number 00:45:25.400 --> 00:45:31.059 of claims by veterans or supposed veterans of 00:45:31.059 --> 00:45:37.530 being, perpetrators of atrocities and crimes. 00:45:38.309 --> 00:45:42.530 Jesse Macbeth is probably the best known example 00:45:42.530 --> 00:45:47.349 who produced a video on the internet claiming 00:45:47.349 --> 00:45:52.570 to be a ranger who had committed atrocities, 00:45:52.690 --> 00:45:56.690 killed several hundred people. But almost as 00:45:56.690 --> 00:46:02.670 soon as he released his claims, real veterans 00:46:02.670 --> 00:46:06.260 started debunking them. They noticed that the 00:46:06.260 --> 00:46:09.639 uniform he was wearing was completely bogus and 00:46:09.639 --> 00:46:16.659 wrong. He didn't know the language or the slang 00:46:16.659 --> 00:46:22.320 of American troops. It turns out that he had 00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:27.239 served 44 days in basic training before being 00:46:27.239 --> 00:46:34.659 thrown out of the Army as unsuitable. later was 00:46:34.659 --> 00:46:39.440 convicted and sentenced to prison for defrauding 00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:44.780 the VA and wearing medals to which he was not 00:46:44.780 --> 00:46:48.139 entitled. It was because of people such as him 00:46:48.139 --> 00:46:53.659 that we began looking very closely at the IVAW 00:46:53.659 --> 00:46:56.460 hearings that were supposed to be upcoming and 00:46:56.460 --> 00:46:58.739 informing the IVAW that we would be checking 00:46:59.780 --> 00:47:03.000 they mortify these very carefully of anybody 00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:06.739 and everyone who testified. Well, there was a 00:47:06.739 --> 00:47:09.239 fellow that made a lot of appearances with John 00:47:09.239 --> 00:47:12.920 Kerry and I had it brought up to me a couple 00:47:12.920 --> 00:47:17.000 of years ago. The guy was outside the hearings 00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:18.679 there, the Winter Soldier hearings, and he said, 00:47:18.840 --> 00:47:22.099 I'll never forget the pilot who was in his wheelchair 00:47:22.099 --> 00:47:28.449 and had been paralyzed and the just the terrible 00:47:28.449 --> 00:47:31.110 testimony he gave of what happened to him. Well, 00:47:31.269 --> 00:47:34.550 folks, if you ever came across a photograph of 00:47:34.550 --> 00:47:37.949 that pilot, let me tell you, he was not on, he 00:47:37.949 --> 00:47:40.710 never flew over North Vietnam. He was a loadmaster 00:47:40.710 --> 00:47:45.369 on a C -130. There's no proof that it ever even 00:47:45.369 --> 00:47:48.289 flew over Vietnam, let alone landed in Vietnam. 00:47:48.710 --> 00:47:51.869 And he's in a wheelchair because he hurt his 00:47:51.869 --> 00:47:55.989 back in a basketball game. And he was one of 00:47:55.989 --> 00:47:58.869 the main people giving testimony there at Winter 00:47:58.869 --> 00:48:02.570 Soldier. And so keep that in mind when you see 00:48:02.570 --> 00:48:07.449 any photograph of Winter Soldier I. A basic question 00:48:07.449 --> 00:48:13.050 for you to ask yourself is, if you believe that 00:48:13.050 --> 00:48:17.610 the average American soldier can commit atrocities, 00:48:18.070 --> 00:48:21.889 you have to believe that you can. Think about 00:48:21.889 --> 00:48:25.650 it. If atrocities are committed in the insanity 00:48:25.650 --> 00:48:28.510 of war, the people that go off to the military 00:48:28.510 --> 00:48:32.789 are normal people. And if they can commit an 00:48:32.789 --> 00:48:35.190 atrocity, so can you. You have it in your own 00:48:35.190 --> 00:48:38.269 self to commit the atrocity. Gary, that is an 00:48:38.269 --> 00:48:43.449 excellent point. We're coming up on a couple 00:48:43.449 --> 00:48:46.030 minutes. Give us some of your last thoughts. 00:48:47.590 --> 00:48:50.949 This is a free talk zone right now, George. I 00:48:50.949 --> 00:48:54.510 would like to point out that there were only 00:48:54.510 --> 00:49:00.690 800 people who joined IVAW and that is out of 00:49:00.690 --> 00:49:03.849 about over one and a half million Americans who 00:49:03.849 --> 00:49:07.210 have actually been sent to the combat theater. 00:49:08.869 --> 00:49:14.070 I checked the IVAW website and only about 140 00:49:14.070 --> 00:49:18.929 of those 800 individuals had their profiles posted. 00:49:20.240 --> 00:49:24.780 And of those 140 people who posted their own 00:49:24.780 --> 00:49:30.139 profiles and stories publicly, only about three 00:49:30.139 --> 00:49:32.980 quarters of them had actually been deployed. 00:49:33.900 --> 00:49:36.179 The other quarter were people who had served 00:49:36.179 --> 00:49:39.360 in the United States or in Europe or someplace 00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:42.739 where they had never even gotten near the Middle 00:49:42.739 --> 00:49:52.789 East. And of that 75%, who actually saw the desert. 00:49:53.969 --> 00:49:58.489 Most of them were in non -combat positions. One 00:49:58.489 --> 00:50:03.250 of the leaders of IVAW spent his war in base 00:50:03.250 --> 00:50:09.409 camp changing slides on PowerPoint projections 00:50:09.409 --> 00:50:14.469 for the general. This is a man who really has 00:50:14.469 --> 00:50:18.630 no basis for any direct... atrocity stories, 00:50:19.010 --> 00:50:21.610 but he can make up atrocity stories or pass along 00:50:21.610 --> 00:50:25.210 second or third hand rumors. And that is essentially 00:50:25.210 --> 00:50:30.190 what the IVAW hearings were all about, made up 00:50:30.190 --> 00:50:33.309 stories and rumors. We're going to have you send 00:50:33.309 --> 00:50:36.650 your contact information, your blog site to us 00:50:36.650 --> 00:50:39.369 at Veterans Radio. George Mellinger, I appreciate 00:50:39.369 --> 00:50:42.190 your being on Veterans Radio. Scott Sweatt, thank 00:50:42.190 --> 00:50:45.980 you very much. Support those sponsors and keep 00:50:45.980 --> 00:50:48.360 Veterans Radio on the air and if you want to 00:50:48.360 --> 00:50:51.980 sponsor, give us a phone call or go to our website 00:50:51.980 --> 00:50:56.440 and email us. Until next week, you are dismissed.