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listen in wherever you're at to veteransradio
.org and its podcasts. We've got a couple of
special programs for you today that I think you're
going to find interesting. You probably won't
find them anywhere else, which is what we try
to do is bring you this information. The first
is going to be an interview talking about the
atrocities that the Japanese committed in World
War II. And it's from the Pacific Atrocities
Foundation. They're focusing on this because
so much of what we focus on in World War II is
the European action and then maybe the US winning
battles in the Pacific, but not the battles that
occurred between Japan and China. So that's what's
going to be focused there. And as we come into
the month, it's also a good time to remember
are MIA POWs, and we're going to talk to a gentleman
who's been kind of focused on that since Vietnam,
making sure we never forget. Both good interviews.
Listen in. We want to welcome to Veterans Radio
today, historian, author, fellow, Quyen Chau,
who's going to talk to us about the Pacific atrocities
education. Foundation out in California, although
I think he's actually on the East Coast at this
point. But Quinn, welcome to Veterans Radio.
Hi, thank you for having me on. Well, let me
set this up a little bit. You are, as I mentioned,
a historian and author specializing in the history
of global conflict and geopolitics in the Asia
Pacific region. You are a 2023 graduate. Summa
Cum Laude from the University of Southern California.
We always like to have these really smart guys
on, because you can help the rest of us regular
folk just understand what's going on. You had
a double major in history and international relations.
You are a fellow at the Pacific Atrocities Education
Foundation. And that's an organization, as I
understand it, that started in 2014 by Jenny
Chen to have a little more focus, a little more
research, a little more academics on what went
on in the Asia -Pacific region during World War
II. We tend to focus a little more, I think,
on European theater, but a whole lot of activities.
I know my father was over in the Pacific, so
a lot of activities in the Pacific. But tell
us how you got involved with the Pacific atrocities
education? Yeah, so I actually got involved with
Pacific atrocities education in the summer of
2020 during the pandemic. I was a bit of interest
in the Second World War and in military history
for quite a long time since I was rather small
child. And by the time that I was done with my
freshman year of college, I found this internship
opportunity on the Pacific Atrocities Education
website. And I applied and I became an intern.
And I wrote a book actually on the China Burma
India campaign of World War II. It's on Amazon.
You can buy it if you so desire. It's called
Competing Empires in Burma. Yeah, the China -Burma
-India Theater World War II. Yeah, I did that.
Actually, today I just completed an over 400
-page book about the Kwantung Army. which was
a Japanese army in Manchuria. After my fellowship
ended in 2020, I basically started a new project
on the Kwantung Army and I've been working on
it in the summers and ever since I became a fellow
at PAE after graduation. Today, I finished. I
finished the final draft. Congratulations. Congratulations.
That's got to feel great to finally say, OK,
that's done. Now, are you still in the editing
for publications phase? Or is that all done as
well? I just finished the editing process. It
took a lot out of me, and I, you know, I've pulled
some all -nighters here, but I've burnt the candle
on both ends and gone to the mat, but I think
the result will end up being worth it in the
end. Well, one of the things I think Pacific
Atrocities Education's trying to do is put a
little more scholarly research into Hey, what
really went on in World War II from a Japanese
Army perspective? Can you talk about a little
bit about the scholarship and the research that
Pacific Atrocities has been focused on for going
on now with something like 10 years, 10, 11 years?
Yes, so Generally speaking, as you pointed out,
in the kind of English -speaking world, and even
the Western world more generally, there is maybe
less knowledge about the Asia -Pacific theater
of World War II. Especially anything that happens
on the Asian continent, the Asian mainland, right,
I think is very... forgotten and overlooked.
It was even forgotten at all. In most cases,
I'd say in America, it's just kind of not well
known that for, you know, depending on how you
count either four or even 10 years before the
Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor, the Chinese were
engaged in a pretty high intensity conflict with
the Japanese for with the Imperial Japanese Army.
I think at the peak of the Imperial Japanese
Army's deployment to China, I think there are
somewhere around 1 .5 or 1 .6 million troops
that were deployed. these obviously being tied
down to this extent in a country so big and vast
as China is a bit of a strategic blunder from
the perspective of Japan. But more to the question,
we basically write about and try to inform English
-speaking audiences about a variety of different
topics, mainly and especially the various atrocities
the Imperial Japanese Army committed on the Asian
mainland in their campaigns of imperial aggression,
but also the campaigns themselves, the military
history and the operational history, if you will.
We try to tell that. I actually kind of see myself
as being a bit of an ops guy. So we try to strike
a fine balance, but there is definitely an emphasis
on the atrocities that the Imperial Japanese
Army committed during the war. And a lot of this,
as you mentioned, you know, I don't think we
in the United States really have maybe been exposed
to it in part because Hollywood hasn't done its
bit to make the right movies, right? There are
hundreds of books and videos that Pacific Atrocities
has put up on its website, which is pacificatrocities
.org, you know, from fall of Saigon, fall of
Singapore, I mean, the China -Burma -India war,
Philippines resistance, and then Unit 731, which
I want you to talk a little bit about because
I don't know anything about this. And as you
say, you've written research and written on the
China -Burma -India theater and the Kwantung
Army. Kind of give us give us at a high level
those things which we just haven't yet focused
on In that area Yes, so There's a lot to unpack
in both cases With regards to the China Burma
India theater is very noteworthy for being a
very multinational theater You have Chinese,
you have Indians, you have West Africans, you
have various different types of the Bermans and
people who would not call themselves Berman from
what's now called Myanmar. You obviously have
the Japanese, you have Americans, you have British
and et cetera down the line. diverse pool of
people that are fighting over Burma, which was
primarily important in a strategic sense because
it is a route by which the Allies, Britain and
America, could send China weapons, oil and supplies,
at least up through The spring of 1942 when Burma
fell after a series of kind of rapid Japanese
outflanking maneuvers of the Defenders and the
shall we say less than optimal Preparation and
deployment of those said defenders to kind of
give you an idea of the by unpreparedness of
the British defenders in Burma during the first
Burma campaign You had a one division defending
400 miles of frontage That for reference division
should probably defend her somewhere around but
10 kilometers of frontage in World War two 400
miles is in almost even if the terrain is totally
impassable would be quite a bit still to ask
of one division. That's a rabbit hole. With regards...
Quinn, let me ask you this. Were the mistakes
which Britain and US made in some of these actions
in Asia in part because they just didn't know
what the heck they were getting into. They were
unfamiliar with that part of the world, or did
they just truly underestimate the capabilities
of the Imperial Army and maybe the Chinese forces
as well? After you've done all this research,
what are your thoughts on some of those strategic
or operational mistakes that were made? The case
of the British, especially early in the war,
and even to an extent the Americans as well,
there was an underestimation of the Japanese,
the Imperial Japanese Army, that was rather severe.
In part, it was kind of a byproduct of the prejudices
of the day, kind of the racism, to put it bluntly.
You had some British soldiers and airmen who
didn't think the Japanese could be good pilots
or design good aircraft. And then they found
out that the Japanese had established air superiority
over Malaya and Singapore in the matter of a
few days. It's a combination of poorly appraising
the enemy and also not being prepared to fight
against an enemy that is weaponizing surprise,
rapid light infantry out flanking maneuvers,
and being ready for the jungle warfare. essentially.
There was an element of unpreparedness of defending
the jungle. There's too much just focusing on
cleared areas and key roads and kind of maintaining
defenses in these places, but not in the shall
we say less though still less traversable though
still passable terrain. I know I'm jumping all
around and there's way too much to cover here
and we'll probably have to do this again but
let me because I think Jenny would want to make
sure we talk some not only about some of those
operational issues but the atrocities themselves
I think that's what shook her in 2014 to say,
wow, I didn't know the Imperial Japanese Army
did that. It is shocking. And that's what she's
trying to make sure doesn't get lost to history.
Can you give us a little bit of insight into
those or that area? Of course. So I just completed
a book on the Kwantung Army and one of the kind
of most extreme aspects of the Kwantung Army
was, as you pointed out, Unit 731. And Unit 731
was the bacteriological and biological warfare
element within the Kwantung Army. And its role
was to test and try and Develop bacteriological
and biological weapons, but the way they did
this was they experimented on people And they
for instance would inject people with diseases
such as anthrax and syphilis And try to and see
what happened they would freeze people they would
do experiments where they would try to find out
the threshold for a frostbite and to what extent
you could survive extreme cold or pressure or
alternatively live vivisections. They would basically
take people's vital organs out of their body
while they were still alive and try to see how
long it would take for them to die and what would
happen, or they might try to reattach one part
of the body to another. And this was something
that was, you know, they made into an industry
of sorts. They did it at a scale and for a length
of time that is quite... shuddering to think
about, quite honestly. The craziest part is that
after the end of World War II, they got off the
hook, because General MacArthur wanted the results
from the experiments, and he didn't opt to prosecute
them at the Tokyo war crimes trials. The head
of 731 Isshiro, he exchanged the results of the
experiments for essentially going free. There
is, I think, widely known in the United States,
the certain amount of brutality in the Japanese
POW camps. I think the death rate far exceeded
the death rate in the German camps. As you research
this, and thought about some of these atrocities,
is there an explanation or a rationale for why?
Well, in terms of Western allied prisoners of
war in German camps, I think the death rate was
somewhere around like 3 % or something. It was
pretty small. In the Japanese prisoner of war
camps, it was somewhere around 27%. If you were
alternatively a Chinese prisoner, you were basically
dead if you got taken prisoner. In most cases,
there were some instances of guys that would
be maybe impressed into roles as soldiers in
a puppet army or puppet militia or made to do
some kind of slave labor. By and large, the Imperial
Japanese Army did not take Chinese prisoners.
They killed a lot of them. That was their modus
operandi. One of the reasons that IJA treated
prisoners so badly was because of the culture
that was kind of fostered within the IJA for
basic training on forward. So there was frequent
corporal punishment from NCOs that was inflicted
on the enlisted ranks during basic training and
even after. And this was quite common. Officers
would also sometimes strike their subordinates.
All the while, these men are being kind of inculcated
with the idea that it's very shameful to surrender.
It's very shameful to give up. It's not a fighting
man does not do this. He doesn't give up the
fight as long as he has a fighting breath. This
was in many ways a byproduct of the IJA's doctrinal
emphasis on morale and spirit and Ilan over kind
of factors such as firepower or numerical superiority
or material capability This this was in people
call it kind of understand it in terms of Bushido
or the way of the warrior Even really the IJA
actually in a sense picked and chose what it
wanted to from the existing tradition or pre
-existing tradition of Bushido and they basically
chose the parts that were more suitable to creating
brainwashed warriors that would kill at the drop
of a hat and on command. Without any sense of
humanity, right? If you're gonna kill all the
Chinese prisoners And and the death rate in the
Japanese POW camps for Americans and Australians
and British so high there's really no sense of
humanity there was there Well, there's no humanity.
It's also worth noting that Japan went to war
with limited food supply, right? So you're basically,
they went to war with only kind of 90 % of the
food requirements that they needed, which sounds
okay until you realize that at least probably
five to 10 % of the population is going to starve
because of that, if not more. when you take into
account infrastructure and kind of various inefficiencies
and things of that nature. So, you know, for
instance, in Vietnam, towards the end of the
war in 1944 and five, you had over a million
people starved to death because the Japanese
infantrymen were kind of left to wither on the
vine. Their logistical situation had collapsed
in part because of the American submarine campaign
in the latter years of the war and in part because
the IJA's logistical system was very flawed and
limited to begin with. But They yeah, we're basically
just going around forging for food and Basically,
yes stealing it from they didn't need another
mouth to feed However, you were a prisoner, but
let me ask you this as we kind of run through
some time here and Why is it why is it important
that the work of the specific atrocities education
move forward? What is it as an author, a historian,
a researcher? Give us that sort of big picture
view of why it's important not to forget this.
Well, it's important for several reasons. For
one thing, it's within living memory. And there
is also a historical memory of all the atrocities
and misdeeds that the Imperial Japanese Army
committed in Asia during the war. So in China,
for example, I think this month, you have films
being released about Unit 731. And also about
the rape of Nanking which is probably the more
Iris Chang wrote a very famous book entitled
the rape of Nanking I think back in 2003 and
it did a very good job of chronicling how the
Imperial Japanese Army basically slaughtered
probably hundreds of thousands of Chinese in
Nanking after the fall of the city. These events
and these historical occurrences are still within
living memory of many people in East Asia. I
think that Japan has not really adequately apologized
for any of the atrocities that it committed during
the war. And I must say that the American government
in the post -war era made a conscious decision
to empower certain elements within Japan that
were complicit, or in some cases more than complicit,
in the war crimes that were committed during
the war. So to give an example, there is a fellow
named Kishi Nobusuke who oversaw the economy
and industrialization of Manchuria. and he was
using slave labor in the millions to basically
build a military industrial complex in Manchuria.
But after the war, he was... Basically, he became
the prime minister of Japan in the late 50s with
the help of the American CIA, and his grandson,
a fellow by the name of Abe Shinzo, became the
prime minister of Japan. So there is a pretty
straight line that can be drawn between the various
figures that emerged from the dust of World War
II and that emerged from the result of World
War II into the relatively contemporary period.
That ripple carries forward right to today. Hope
you enjoyed that discussion with Quinn Cho. We
actually have a longer discussion with him on
our podcast, which you can go find at any of
your favorite download locations, look for Veterans
Radio, and Quinn Cho talks about the Kwantung
Army as well, which is pre -World War II, but
I also learned about Unit 731 from him, and there's
a lot of writing on this in the pacificatrocities
.org website and books. These are units 731 did
ghastly medical experiments on people. We know
about what the Nazis did. We haven't paid much
attention, I don't think, to what was done by
the Imperial Japanese Army. So you may want to
listen to that too. A few words from sponsors
and supporters and then we'll get on with talking
about MIAPOW issues. Military veterans touch
everyone's life. I'm guessing right now you're
thinking of a veteran, a close friend, relative.
Maybe it's you. Even the toughest of us sometimes
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You don't need special training to help a veteran
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Department of Veterans Affairs. 4800. They're
experts in handling cases before the U .S. Court
of Appeals for Veterans Claims. Their number
again, 1 -800 -693 -4800. We want to welcome
to Veterans Radio today, Air Force veteran Raymond
Mike Sands. It goes by Mike, so that's what I'm
going to call him. Mike, welcome to Veterans
Radio. Thank you for having me. Appreciate everything
you're doing and getting the word out about what
we veterans are up to. Well, that's one of the
stories we want to tell. Most people probably
don't know that the third Friday of every September
is National Recognition Day, M -I -A -P -O -W,
National Recognition Day, and we want to highlight
that a little bit. We're going to talk about
that some. Mike served in the Air Force from
about August of 1967 until sometime in 1971 and
has comes from, his father was a veteran, an
Army veteran, World War II, but Mike has never
walked away from his veteran status and is still
very active in terms of trying to keep certain
messages alive here in the state and here nationally.
Mike, I think most people would be surprised
to know that there's still 88 ,000 service members
missing from the wars and conflicts in which
the US has been engaged. That's a big number.
For sure. And one of your counterparts in this
effort is a woman by the name of Marty Eddy who's
been involved in this since the early 1970s,
has a family connection as to why she's so active
in it. But almost every month, maybe almost every
week, DOD is announcing the identification of
remains of those 88 ,000 missing service members.
DNA technology I suppose is how this all gets
done. But talk about a little bit about what
drew you into working at this issue and keeping
this issue alive. Well how much time do you have?
It's quite fascinating. I don't know if I've
been blessed or cursed, but, you know, my father
served at the end of World War II in Germany
and my family ascended from Eastern Europe. So
my father, being German, Sprecher Sie Deutsche
Kleine Bisseau, ended up in Germany at the end
of the war and he was a truck driver. And I'm
going, truck driver what's he doing the combat
infantry badge what why is a guy that worked
in the motor pool have at the end of the war
well i found out years years later that he uh
was part of the program if you will to clean
up the uh mess after the the russians came in
and slaughtered the germans so he had what they
called shell shock at that time And that's one
of the reasons he was so involved with the American
Legion. So when I came along, he wanted to keep
that flag flying. So he signed me up as a charter
member of the Sons of the American Legion when
I was 10. So I would go in the parades, I would,
you know, decorate my bicycle red, white and
blue and all this. And so in my teens, I became
draft made, of course. And because of my interest
in shop class, I was able to pass the Air Force
qualification test and joined for four years
as opposed to being drafted for two. But that
created a situation where my dad said, oh, now
that you're a veteran, you need to get back involved.
Well, when the Vietnam vets came home, we weren't
very popular, of course. And a lot of the World
War II people say you didn't fight in the real
war, la, la, la. But my dad always supported
me. And that's kind of what got my interest.
But there's a song from the 60s called Ten Years
After. A lot of us Vietnam guys, you know, we
had to, you know, reestablish our jobs, our families,
readjust to being home. And so there was a drought
there for a long time. So even though I was in
the American Legion, I didn't do much. I met
a fellow during when David Bonyer was running
for office. He's from McComb County and so am
I. And he was all about veterans in Congress,
about recognizing our service. And he had a rally
in Detroit. And a friend of mine and I went there.
We met a fellow named Jack Devine. Jack Devine
was one of the founders of Vietnam Veterans of
America, I'm sorry, Vietnam Veterans of Michigan.
And later they joined up with Bobby Mueller,
the Vietnam Veterans of America out of New York.
And so we became Chapter Nine. And because we're
Detroiters, people, you guys are pretty tough.
Literally, we bought a building in the heart
of the Cass corridor, which at the time was the
murder capital of America, and bought a building
from the University of Michigan Regents for $10
,000. And this place was a hellhole. I mean,
the homeless had dragged in all kinds of you
-know -what and feces, blah, blah, blah. We took
13 dead cats out of there. But we turned that
building into a veterans center to help the community,
to help homeless veterans, to make a difference.
And I think the record speaks for itself. But
I'm proud to be member number 61 and be involved
and be able to carry on the progress, the forward
progress of Vietnam Veterans of America Chapter
9. Well, you were a board member for that chapter.
You're a former commissioner with the Michigan
Vietnam Memorial Monument that was built on several
grounds and dedicated 20 years plus now in 2001.
So you've been active for a long time and sort
of have a view of the importance of continuing
to think about our POWs and MIAs. Sure. Talk
to us a little bit about that. Well again, interesting.
A couple of things. Number one that I served
in the Air Force during the bombing of North
Vietnam and Rolling Thunder, I serviced the F
-105 Thunder Chief, which has stories. They call
it the one -man guided missile. They call it
the Thud. I mean, that aircraft was originally
designed to carry a nuclear warhead. I don't
know if you know that, but the F -105 Thunder
Chief, from the cold war as a bomb bay and the
bomb bay was designed to carry a nuclear warhead
and the planes were stationed in Europe and the
pilots was the strategic air command at the time
and if the pilots got caught up called up they
had a specific target that they were given once
they were called up and they would not return
from that target because the detonation of the
nuclear bomb was greater than the speed of the
aircraft so you could say that we had kamikaze
pilots so that aircraft was never used for the
purpose it was intended but when the war started
in Vietnam they converted it to a fighter bomber
and loaded it up with everything from anti -personnel
bombs napalm 500 pound bomb 750 pound bombs and
so these pilots you know the lead sled they sometimes
call this use this thing For a purpose that it
wasn't initially designed for. Anyway, we lost
a lot of those aircraft. We lost a whole lot
of those. And I would, you know, send them out.
I'm a ground crew person, but I was responsible
for all the flight controls, the landing gear,
the steering, all that business. And you told
me earlier, you were over in Thailand. I was
in Thailand. You know, secretly are coming out
of Thailand and supporting the war mission. And
so you know guys... from that base that were
shot down between POWs or MIAs. And so that's
kind of where the driver came for you, I take
it. Oh yeah. Well, not only that, I mean, I'm
having goosebumps while I'm speaking with you,
but I don't know if you've heard of Digger O'Dell.
Oh sure. Digger O'Dell, he flew the same aircraft
that I serviced, F -105 Thunder Chiefs. And he
was there before I was. But when I later found
out that Digger flew out of Carat where I was,
we kind of bonded. So I got to know Digger very,
very well. And also he was the public affairs
fellow for Selfridge Air Base here, which I'm
also involved with. And just for our listeners
who don't know this story, as opposed to you,
he was a POW. Oh, for sure. For five, yeah, yeah.
Five and a half years. Five years, yeah. So again,
you have this personal connection with this issue,
and it really goes kind of beyond just, geez,
I feel bad for these families who don't know
what happened to their loved ones. Well, here's
a story that I would like to share with you.
So, you know, the war, we pulled out in 73. The
war was over in 75. But we had our POWs that
were unaccounted for. And the ones that were
returned were able to walk. They were, you know,
looked like they were in reasonable condition.
But here at Fraser, where I live, there was a
family that lost, had a missing son, Robert Leon
Tucci, who was a captain at the time. And he
was flying an F4 and a two in the secret war
in Laos. We weren't there, but we were there.
And that's what my outfit did. When Nixon stopped
the bombing, our sorties picked up. We were doing
twice as many sorties. We're saying, if the bombing
has stopped in Vietnam, why are we doing all
these? bombing runs. So here where I live they
have a VFW post 6691 and when the POWs came home
there was no Robert L. Tucci and so the family
of Robert they came to the VFW said how come
Robert's remains or body hasn't been returned.
So the commander at the time here was Nelson
Amstel and he partnered with a judge, Frank Zadkoff,
and they raised money here in Fraser to send
these two fellas to Paris to negotiate with the
North Vietnamese to find out where Robert Tucci
is. So they went there, they had their meeting
with the North Vietnamese, and the North Vietnamese
answer to them was, when Richard Nixon pays for
the damage that he caused by bombing North Vietnam,
we will let you know about Tucci and many others
that are unaccounted for. So we found out, you
know, that Tucci was shot down in Laos, but we
weren't in Laos. So the local newspaper here,
the McComb Daily, Mitch Cohesion, started a series
about where is Robert Tucci? Where are the POWs?
And so at the same time, the POW -MIA program
started up. Marty got involved. Vietnam vets
got involved. And so that kind of kept me going
with it. And like I said, we kind of hold that
flag dear because we were part of the initiation
of starting the POW movement. And the reason
we're having this conversation, and Mike and
I have talked about this, is it's still relevant
today. It may be 50 years later. But even today,
if you go to a veteran program, there's often
a table recognizing the M .I .A. POWs and it's
very symbolic. I had the opportunity to take
my nephew to one recently. He had no idea what
the table was about and heard the meaningfulness
of the lemon, the salt, the upside down glass,
the empty plate. You know, there's a very important
symbolism here. But we have to explain that to
people who weren't around 50 years ago and keep
keep it alive to know that the country made a
commitment to bring these guys home and yet maybe
many many years later but the families still
really do need and appreciate getting remains
home and so one of the things projects you're
working on that let's talk about is trying to
keep that idea alive in a state capital like
Lansing, Michigan, where you're working on a
chair. Talk a little bit about what that project's
about. Well, I had the opportunity to participate
in one of the runs for Rolling Thunder. Rolling
Thunder is sponsored by the motorcycle group
Rolling Thunder. Memorial Day, each year they
would have a bike run to the state, to the national
capital, I'm sorry. And I had the privilege of
participating because I was on the Michigan Vietnam
Monument Commission. So I actually got to ride
in the lead of that group. But the interesting
sidebar is that I had a Yamaha and these are
mostly Harleys and a lot of the Vietnam vets,
you know, they had the Harley Davidsons. And
so So you got you got you got ribbed for your
I got ripped but I'm in the front right I'm with
the Vietnam veteran motorcycle people and when
we got we real quick we left Michigan here with
six bikes we got to Monroe with hundreds of bikes
we got to Ohio we had 2 ,000 bikes so we're going
into Maryland and there's a Harley dealer that
is kind of welcoming everybody so I'm in the
front of the group and the guy's out in front
he's waving in the Harleys but he's telling me
no you can't go in there so the the bikers that
are with me they're going no he doesn't go in
there we don't go so we got thousands of motorcycles
backed up trying to get into this Harley -Davidson
thing so the owner comes out and he looks he
shakes his head he says go ahead you can go in
there Let me get you back to the chair that you're
working at. Sure, sure, sure. So yes, so the
Rolling Thunder Motorcycle Club, their mission
is to have a POWMIA chair at every state. Marty
Eddy's been working with this as long as I've
known her. And we have been instrumental in,
like I say, beating the drum, letting people
know how important this is. And I think if you
go to any veteran's whatever you want, club,
I say, you'll see a chair in there. So Michigan
does not have a POWMI chair. And chapter nine,
we've been able to raise quite a bit of money.
And we said, we're gonna buy the chair. So we
actually went to Lancaster, Pennsylvania. We
found a custom manufacturer, if you will, that
they deal with Amish craftsmen. And we modeled
the chair after the chair in Washington, DC.
So it's a, they call it a library chair. It's
white oak, got a brown color to it and a black
leather cushion. And we also have a 24 inch by
24 inch bronze plaque that's being made that
tells the story. Like you said, it has the symbol
of the POWMIA logo and also the seal of the state
of Michigan. And I hope this gets to the right
ears because why? Why on earth? can we not have
this chair of honor, a national icon in our state
capital, when Michigan in particular is so significant
in the history of the military activities in
America. So I've gone through politicians, I've
gone through bureaucrats, I've gone through,
you know, people supporters, and it's just amazing
to me. And I'm going to say it right to you.
Shame on these people shame shame shame because
lest we forget lest we forget and it's not going
to cost the state of Michigan anything but a
space to put it well I want to jump on this because
the whole the POW MIA iconic symbol says at the
bottom you are not forgotten exactly and and
I we talked earlier like we have to pass on to
the younger generations what this is about, why
it's a sacred trust, and the state capital is
a place that they bring school kids in by the
busloads every year. So this would create an
opportunity for younger people to see that chair
and ask, hey, what's that about? What's that
about, exactly. Sure, and the Library and Historical
Museum is right there adjacent to the memorial.
and the grounds where the memorial, the Vietnam
Memorial, is also sacred and it might be a place
for future wars to be recognized. You know, there'll
always be wars, I hate to say, but we're kind
of across from the Library Historical Museum
and the Supreme Court building and the Capitol
in this mall area. So we fought very hard. It
took 11 years to get the Vietnam Memorial there,
but, you know, we're happy to have that. We call
it tension and strength. We call that memorial
tension and strength. Because it's a beam that's
bent on a curve with a wire. And that shows the
tension and then the steel and the concrete show
the strength. And there's 264 names on it. So
Mike, as we come to a conclusion here, and I
appreciate you coming on to represent the POWMIA
community. approach the National Remembrance
Day September 19th 2025 this year. What final
words do you want to pass on to our veteran radio
listeners about the importance of remembering
POWs and MIAs? We have a motto, for those who
fought for it freedom has a flavor the protected
will never know and you know lest we forget you
mentioned earlier and I'm going to say real quick
I mean, we have prisoners of war right now in
Gaza. We have the Vietnamese prisoners of war
number in up to 500 ,000. Not that they're all
service people, but it's just amazing to me.
Lest we forget, and how can we expect our young
people to step up and serve this country if we
don't recognize those who are unaccounted for?
It's very, very important. I appreciate you taking
the time to have me come on here and you know,
help with the cause. Well, we've got a moral
obligation and I think that's what you're trying
to communicate is that the country has this moral
obligation and future generations will judge
us by whether or not we paid attention to it.
For sure. Mike, thanks for taking some time with
Veterans Radio today. We really do appreciate
it. I appreciate what you're doing and God bless
America and keep her flying. Well, as I said
at the outset, these were both kind of unusual
stories to tell but needed to be told. And we
hope that you found them somewhat inspiring.
And maybe you want to go learn a little more.
Maybe you want to keep the MIA POW alive at your
post or at your church or at your school, whatever
it might be. So we can't do this program. I think
we tell you this every week without the help
of our sponsors. We'd certainly love you to be
either an individual Donator to the cause you
can go to veteransradio .org Hit the donate button
and do that or reach out to Dale at veteransradio
.org if you'd like to be a corporate sponsor
We want to thank NVBDC org the gold standard
for certification of disabled and veteran owned
businesses the Vietnam Veterans of America National
Chapter, Legal Help for Veterans, and all they
do with regards to helping veterans get the disability
rights that they've earned, the VA Ann Arbor
Health Care System, and our local posts as well.
Vietnam Veterans of America, Charles S. Kettles,
Chapter 310 in Ann Arbor, VFW Graf O 'Hara, Post
423, American Legion. Erwin Prescon Post 46 in
Ann Arbor. All of these folks really keep us
going and keep us on the air. It is a labor of
love for those of us who do it. We're not getting
rich doing this at all, but we are getting spiritually
benefit, if you will, from bringing these stories
to you and making sure that this history just
doesn't die on the ash heaps. We're right around
Veterans Day. You hopefully are going out to
various programs in your local area wherever
you're listening to Veterans Radio to participate.
We've got a couple of days here before Veterans
Day, but get out and participate. Wear the cap,
show folks. There's so few of us left who are
veterans. show the cap, show the flag, get out
and do those sorts of things, go to the memorials,
go to the parades so that this is alive and doesn't
just become dusty old history. And it's really
also important so that the kids out there kind
of know who the... military veterans are and
what they did. We're gonna have a great opportunity
over the next year to talk about this as the
Congressional Medal of Honor Society comes to
Detroit at the end of September of 2026. It'll
be a great opportunity to help explain to kids
today, whether they're in grade school, high
school, early college. that the heroes of yesteryear
are regular people who did extraordinary things.
So we'd encourage you to kind of watch for some
of that as it develops. It's going to be a great
opportunity here in southeast Michigan. You can
go to their website which is medalofhonoredetroit
.com to learn more about that upcoming convention.
There are only 61 living Medal of Honor recipients.
So it's a pretty small select group who are in
there and there's a lot we can learn from them.
So we'd certainly encourage you to do that. Just
as we'd encourage you to listen to Veterans Radio
on your podcast, we post something new. Every
Tuesday morning, we also post our Sunday program
that you're listening to so you can catch it
there if you missed it live on Sunday. But there's
a lot of good information, a lot of things to
pass along. So I'm Jim Fossone with Veterans
Radio. My partner Dale Throneberry will be back
next week. And until then, you are dismissed.