WEBVTT 00:00:05.419 --> 00:00:09.060 All across America and around the world, this 00:00:09.060 --> 00:00:15.140 is Veterans Radio. This is Veterans Radio. Good 00:00:15.140 --> 00:00:18.600 day. I'm Jim Fossone. I'm the officer of the 00:00:18.600 --> 00:00:20.699 deck today here on Veterans Radio and thanks 00:00:20.699 --> 00:00:23.460 for joining us. We've got some interesting stories 00:00:23.460 --> 00:00:25.640 for you. We always want to remind you you can 00:00:25.640 --> 00:00:28.739 find more about Veterans Radio at its Facebook 00:00:28.739 --> 00:00:32.420 site or at the web, veteransradio .org, where 00:00:32.420 --> 00:00:35.259 we're on the web 24 -7. You can find a lot of 00:00:35.259 --> 00:00:38.299 our podcasts there as well. We post new ones 00:00:38.299 --> 00:00:42.479 every Tuesday, so you can get a new story, a 00:00:42.479 --> 00:00:45.240 new interview, something you didn't know before 00:00:45.240 --> 00:00:49.219 by going to veteransradio .org. 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So 00:02:30.939 --> 00:02:34.240 really pretty proud of being in the top 15. So 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:38.400 listen in wherever you're at to veteransradio 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:42.009 .org and its podcasts. We've got a couple of 00:02:42.009 --> 00:02:44.650 special programs for you today that I think you're 00:02:44.650 --> 00:02:46.449 going to find interesting. You probably won't 00:02:46.449 --> 00:02:48.629 find them anywhere else, which is what we try 00:02:48.629 --> 00:02:51.650 to do is bring you this information. The first 00:02:51.650 --> 00:02:55.889 is going to be an interview talking about the 00:02:55.889 --> 00:03:00.870 atrocities that the Japanese committed in World 00:03:00.870 --> 00:03:06.909 War II. And it's from the Pacific Atrocities 00:03:06.909 --> 00:03:11.139 Foundation. They're focusing on this because 00:03:11.139 --> 00:03:16.099 so much of what we focus on in World War II is 00:03:16.099 --> 00:03:20.039 the European action and then maybe the US winning 00:03:20.039 --> 00:03:23.560 battles in the Pacific, but not the battles that 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:28.240 occurred between Japan and China. So that's what's 00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:31.539 going to be focused there. And as we come into 00:03:31.539 --> 00:03:34.219 the month, it's also a good time to remember 00:03:34.750 --> 00:03:39.189 are MIA POWs, and we're going to talk to a gentleman 00:03:39.189 --> 00:03:43.050 who's been kind of focused on that since Vietnam, 00:03:43.110 --> 00:03:46.389 making sure we never forget. Both good interviews. 00:03:46.969 --> 00:03:50.469 Listen in. We want to welcome to Veterans Radio 00:03:50.469 --> 00:03:55.629 today, historian, author, fellow, Quyen Chau, 00:03:55.990 --> 00:03:58.909 who's going to talk to us about the Pacific atrocities 00:03:58.909 --> 00:04:02.500 education. Foundation out in California, although 00:04:02.500 --> 00:04:04.400 I think he's actually on the East Coast at this 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:07.500 point. But Quinn, welcome to Veterans Radio. 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:12.020 Hi, thank you for having me on. Well, let me 00:04:12.020 --> 00:04:15.300 set this up a little bit. You are, as I mentioned, 00:04:15.599 --> 00:04:18.680 a historian and author specializing in the history 00:04:18.680 --> 00:04:21.899 of global conflict and geopolitics in the Asia 00:04:21.899 --> 00:04:27.620 Pacific region. You are a 2023 graduate. Summa 00:04:27.620 --> 00:04:30.639 Cum Laude from the University of Southern California. 00:04:30.660 --> 00:04:32.680 We always like to have these really smart guys 00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:35.540 on, because you can help the rest of us regular 00:04:35.540 --> 00:04:39.279 folk just understand what's going on. You had 00:04:39.279 --> 00:04:42.240 a double major in history and international relations. 00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:47.199 You are a fellow at the Pacific Atrocities Education 00:04:47.199 --> 00:04:52.259 Foundation. And that's an organization, as I 00:04:52.259 --> 00:04:56.689 understand it, that started in 2014 by Jenny 00:04:56.689 --> 00:05:01.709 Chen to have a little more focus, a little more 00:05:01.709 --> 00:05:04.709 research, a little more academics on what went 00:05:04.709 --> 00:05:08.670 on in the Asia -Pacific region during World War 00:05:08.670 --> 00:05:12.310 II. We tend to focus a little more, I think, 00:05:12.589 --> 00:05:15.810 on European theater, but a whole lot of activities. 00:05:15.910 --> 00:05:19.750 I know my father was over in the Pacific, so 00:05:19.750 --> 00:05:22.389 a lot of activities in the Pacific. But tell 00:05:22.389 --> 00:05:26.860 us how you got involved with the Pacific atrocities 00:05:26.860 --> 00:05:32.100 education? Yeah, so I actually got involved with 00:05:32.100 --> 00:05:35.379 Pacific atrocities education in the summer of 00:05:35.379 --> 00:05:40.379 2020 during the pandemic. I was a bit of interest 00:05:40.379 --> 00:05:43.779 in the Second World War and in military history 00:05:43.779 --> 00:05:49.029 for quite a long time since I was rather small 00:05:49.029 --> 00:05:54.009 child. And by the time that I was done with my 00:05:54.009 --> 00:05:57.149 freshman year of college, I found this internship 00:05:57.149 --> 00:06:00.550 opportunity on the Pacific Atrocities Education 00:06:00.550 --> 00:06:06.589 website. And I applied and I became an intern. 00:06:06.589 --> 00:06:10.850 And I wrote a book actually on the China Burma 00:06:10.850 --> 00:06:16.860 India campaign of World War II. It's on Amazon. 00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:21.560 You can buy it if you so desire. It's called 00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:26.399 Competing Empires in Burma. Yeah, the China -Burma 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:31.860 -India Theater World War II. Yeah, I did that. 00:06:33.139 --> 00:06:38.339 Actually, today I just completed an over 400 00:06:38.339 --> 00:06:42.829 -page book about the Kwantung Army. which was 00:06:42.829 --> 00:06:48.329 a Japanese army in Manchuria. After my fellowship 00:06:48.329 --> 00:06:55.110 ended in 2020, I basically started a new project 00:06:55.110 --> 00:07:01.829 on the Kwantung Army and I've been working on 00:07:01.829 --> 00:07:06.110 it in the summers and ever since I became a fellow 00:07:06.110 --> 00:07:11.750 at PAE after graduation. Today, I finished. I 00:07:11.750 --> 00:07:15.649 finished the final draft. Congratulations. Congratulations. 00:07:15.810 --> 00:07:18.589 That's got to feel great to finally say, OK, 00:07:18.930 --> 00:07:21.470 that's done. Now, are you still in the editing 00:07:21.470 --> 00:07:25.129 for publications phase? Or is that all done as 00:07:25.129 --> 00:07:29.110 well? I just finished the editing process. It 00:07:29.110 --> 00:07:32.310 took a lot out of me, and I, you know, I've pulled 00:07:32.310 --> 00:07:35.870 some all -nighters here, but I've burnt the candle 00:07:35.870 --> 00:07:39.170 on both ends and gone to the mat, but I think 00:07:39.170 --> 00:07:43.670 the result will end up being worth it in the 00:07:43.670 --> 00:07:47.610 end. Well, one of the things I think Pacific 00:07:47.610 --> 00:07:49.949 Atrocities Education's trying to do is put a 00:07:49.949 --> 00:07:54.699 little more scholarly research into Hey, what 00:07:54.699 --> 00:08:00.360 really went on in World War II from a Japanese 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:04.620 Army perspective? Can you talk about a little 00:08:04.620 --> 00:08:11.360 bit about the scholarship and the research that 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:16.060 Pacific Atrocities has been focused on for going 00:08:16.060 --> 00:08:18.600 on now with something like 10 years, 10, 11 years? 00:08:19.899 --> 00:08:24.980 Yes, so Generally speaking, as you pointed out, 00:08:25.639 --> 00:08:28.319 in the kind of English -speaking world, and even 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:32.679 the Western world more generally, there is maybe 00:08:32.679 --> 00:08:37.179 less knowledge about the Asia -Pacific theater 00:08:37.179 --> 00:08:42.039 of World War II. Especially anything that happens 00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:45.419 on the Asian continent, the Asian mainland, right, 00:08:45.460 --> 00:08:49.759 I think is very... forgotten and overlooked. 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:53.259 It was even forgotten at all. In most cases, 00:08:53.320 --> 00:08:56.500 I'd say in America, it's just kind of not well 00:08:56.500 --> 00:09:01.240 known that for, you know, depending on how you 00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:06.200 count either four or even 10 years before the 00:09:06.200 --> 00:09:09.840 Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor, the Chinese were 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:14.720 engaged in a pretty high intensity conflict with 00:09:14.720 --> 00:09:19.139 the Japanese for with the Imperial Japanese Army. 00:09:19.539 --> 00:09:23.419 I think at the peak of the Imperial Japanese 00:09:23.419 --> 00:09:30.879 Army's deployment to China, I think there are 00:09:30.879 --> 00:09:34.720 somewhere around 1 .5 or 1 .6 million troops 00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:40.419 that were deployed. these obviously being tied 00:09:40.419 --> 00:09:45.279 down to this extent in a country so big and vast 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:51.860 as China is a bit of a strategic blunder from 00:09:51.860 --> 00:09:56.259 the perspective of Japan. But more to the question, 00:09:57.759 --> 00:10:04.179 we basically write about and try to inform English 00:10:04.179 --> 00:10:06.860 -speaking audiences about a variety of different 00:10:06.860 --> 00:10:14.019 topics, mainly and especially the various atrocities 00:10:14.019 --> 00:10:17.679 the Imperial Japanese Army committed on the Asian 00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:21.679 mainland in their campaigns of imperial aggression, 00:10:22.299 --> 00:10:27.440 but also the campaigns themselves, the military 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:31.860 history and the operational history, if you will. 00:10:31.899 --> 00:10:36.320 We try to tell that. I actually kind of see myself 00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:42.860 as being a bit of an ops guy. So we try to strike 00:10:42.860 --> 00:10:46.500 a fine balance, but there is definitely an emphasis 00:10:46.500 --> 00:10:52.139 on the atrocities that the Imperial Japanese 00:10:52.139 --> 00:10:56.720 Army committed during the war. And a lot of this, 00:10:56.740 --> 00:10:58.720 as you mentioned, you know, I don't think we 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:02.360 in the United States really have maybe been exposed 00:11:02.360 --> 00:11:06.200 to it in part because Hollywood hasn't done its 00:11:06.200 --> 00:11:10.080 bit to make the right movies, right? There are 00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:14.720 hundreds of books and videos that Pacific Atrocities 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:19.379 has put up on its website, which is pacificatrocities 00:11:19.379 --> 00:11:26.700 .org, you know, from fall of Saigon, fall of 00:11:26.700 --> 00:11:30.279 Singapore, I mean, the China -Burma -India war, 00:11:31.539 --> 00:11:36.340 Philippines resistance, and then Unit 731, which 00:11:36.340 --> 00:11:38.340 I want you to talk a little bit about because 00:11:38.340 --> 00:11:42.000 I don't know anything about this. And as you 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:48.159 say, you've written research and written on the 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:51.159 China -Burma -India theater and the Kwantung 00:11:51.159 --> 00:11:55.470 Army. Kind of give us give us at a high level 00:11:55.470 --> 00:11:58.330 those things which we just haven't yet focused 00:11:58.330 --> 00:12:07.590 on In that area Yes, so There's a lot to unpack 00:12:07.590 --> 00:12:13.649 in both cases With regards to the China Burma 00:12:13.649 --> 00:12:18.330 India theater is very noteworthy for being a 00:12:18.330 --> 00:12:24.899 very multinational theater You have Chinese, 00:12:25.220 --> 00:12:29.379 you have Indians, you have West Africans, you 00:12:29.379 --> 00:12:35.820 have various different types of the Bermans and 00:12:35.820 --> 00:12:38.919 people who would not call themselves Berman from 00:12:38.919 --> 00:12:42.879 what's now called Myanmar. You obviously have 00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:45.740 the Japanese, you have Americans, you have British 00:12:45.740 --> 00:12:53.440 and et cetera down the line. diverse pool of 00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:59.879 people that are fighting over Burma, which was 00:12:59.879 --> 00:13:03.259 primarily important in a strategic sense because 00:13:03.259 --> 00:13:07.980 it is a route by which the Allies, Britain and 00:13:07.980 --> 00:13:13.700 America, could send China weapons, oil and supplies, 00:13:13.899 --> 00:13:20.659 at least up through The spring of 1942 when Burma 00:13:20.659 --> 00:13:25.200 fell after a series of kind of rapid Japanese 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:29.600 outflanking maneuvers of the Defenders and the 00:13:29.600 --> 00:13:34.399 shall we say less than optimal Preparation and 00:13:34.399 --> 00:13:37.419 deployment of those said defenders to kind of 00:13:37.419 --> 00:13:43.139 give you an idea of the by unpreparedness of 00:13:43.139 --> 00:13:47.039 the British defenders in Burma during the first 00:13:47.039 --> 00:13:52.039 Burma campaign You had a one division defending 00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:58.620 400 miles of frontage That for reference division 00:13:58.620 --> 00:14:01.080 should probably defend her somewhere around but 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:07.059 10 kilometers of frontage in World War two 400 00:14:07.059 --> 00:14:10.629 miles is in almost even if the terrain is totally 00:14:10.629 --> 00:14:15.529 impassable would be quite a bit still to ask 00:14:15.529 --> 00:14:22.090 of one division. That's a rabbit hole. With regards... 00:14:22.090 --> 00:14:26.669 Quinn, let me ask you this. Were the mistakes 00:14:26.669 --> 00:14:31.909 which Britain and US made in some of these actions 00:14:31.909 --> 00:14:36.669 in Asia in part because they just didn't know 00:14:36.669 --> 00:14:38.330 what the heck they were getting into. They were 00:14:38.330 --> 00:14:41.590 unfamiliar with that part of the world, or did 00:14:41.590 --> 00:14:46.789 they just truly underestimate the capabilities 00:14:46.789 --> 00:14:51.470 of the Imperial Army and maybe the Chinese forces 00:14:51.470 --> 00:14:54.129 as well? After you've done all this research, 00:14:55.769 --> 00:14:59.090 what are your thoughts on some of those strategic 00:14:59.090 --> 00:15:03.919 or operational mistakes that were made? The case 00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:07.019 of the British, especially early in the war, 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:10.679 and even to an extent the Americans as well, 00:15:10.860 --> 00:15:15.519 there was an underestimation of the Japanese, 00:15:16.019 --> 00:15:19.659 the Imperial Japanese Army, that was rather severe. 00:15:20.940 --> 00:15:25.919 In part, it was kind of a byproduct of the prejudices 00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:32.039 of the day, kind of the racism, to put it bluntly. 00:15:33.509 --> 00:15:38.129 You had some British soldiers and airmen who 00:15:38.129 --> 00:15:40.269 didn't think the Japanese could be good pilots 00:15:40.269 --> 00:15:45.929 or design good aircraft. And then they found 00:15:45.929 --> 00:15:49.350 out that the Japanese had established air superiority 00:15:49.350 --> 00:15:52.649 over Malaya and Singapore in the matter of a 00:15:52.649 --> 00:16:05.940 few days. It's a combination of poorly appraising 00:16:05.940 --> 00:16:12.399 the enemy and also not being prepared to fight 00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:16.980 against an enemy that is weaponizing surprise, 00:16:18.379 --> 00:16:21.379 rapid light infantry out flanking maneuvers, 00:16:22.500 --> 00:16:30.200 and being ready for the jungle warfare. essentially. 00:16:31.419 --> 00:16:37.940 There was an element of unpreparedness of defending 00:16:37.940 --> 00:16:42.639 the jungle. There's too much just focusing on 00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:48.600 cleared areas and key roads and kind of maintaining 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:54.960 defenses in these places, but not in the shall 00:16:54.960 --> 00:16:59.700 we say less though still less traversable though 00:16:59.700 --> 00:17:04.519 still passable terrain. I know I'm jumping all 00:17:04.519 --> 00:17:08.460 around and there's way too much to cover here 00:17:08.460 --> 00:17:12.240 and we'll probably have to do this again but 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:16.319 let me because I think Jenny would want to make 00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:20.079 sure we talk some not only about some of those 00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:23.359 operational issues but the atrocities themselves 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:27.890 I think that's what shook her in 2014 to say, 00:17:27.990 --> 00:17:30.950 wow, I didn't know the Imperial Japanese Army 00:17:30.950 --> 00:17:36.890 did that. It is shocking. And that's what she's 00:17:36.890 --> 00:17:39.150 trying to make sure doesn't get lost to history. 00:17:39.569 --> 00:17:43.289 Can you give us a little bit of insight into 00:17:43.289 --> 00:17:50.369 those or that area? Of course. So I just completed 00:17:50.369 --> 00:17:54.529 a book on the Kwantung Army and one of the kind 00:17:54.529 --> 00:17:59.950 of most extreme aspects of the Kwantung Army 00:17:59.950 --> 00:18:06.309 was, as you pointed out, Unit 731. And Unit 731 00:18:06.309 --> 00:18:11.549 was the bacteriological and biological warfare 00:18:11.549 --> 00:18:18.329 element within the Kwantung Army. And its role 00:18:18.329 --> 00:18:27.920 was to test and try and Develop bacteriological 00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:30.460 and biological weapons, but the way they did 00:18:30.460 --> 00:18:35.720 this was they experimented on people And they 00:18:35.720 --> 00:18:39.640 for instance would inject people with diseases 00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:45.519 such as anthrax and syphilis And try to and see 00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:49.160 what happened they would freeze people they would 00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:52.180 do experiments where they would try to find out 00:18:52.180 --> 00:18:58.789 the threshold for a frostbite and to what extent 00:18:58.789 --> 00:19:05.589 you could survive extreme cold or pressure or 00:19:05.589 --> 00:19:12.970 alternatively live vivisections. They would basically 00:19:12.970 --> 00:19:16.849 take people's vital organs out of their body 00:19:16.849 --> 00:19:23.259 while they were still alive and try to see how 00:19:23.259 --> 00:19:26.220 long it would take for them to die and what would 00:19:26.220 --> 00:19:29.960 happen, or they might try to reattach one part 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:35.640 of the body to another. And this was something 00:19:35.640 --> 00:19:40.940 that was, you know, they made into an industry 00:19:40.940 --> 00:19:45.720 of sorts. They did it at a scale and for a length 00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:52.279 of time that is quite... shuddering to think 00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:57.680 about, quite honestly. The craziest part is that 00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:01.220 after the end of World War II, they got off the 00:20:01.220 --> 00:20:04.519 hook, because General MacArthur wanted the results 00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:09.460 from the experiments, and he didn't opt to prosecute 00:20:09.460 --> 00:20:13.339 them at the Tokyo war crimes trials. The head 00:20:13.339 --> 00:20:20.940 of 731 Isshiro, he exchanged the results of the 00:20:20.940 --> 00:20:28.339 experiments for essentially going free. There 00:20:28.339 --> 00:20:32.059 is, I think, widely known in the United States, 00:20:34.819 --> 00:20:38.740 the certain amount of brutality in the Japanese 00:20:38.740 --> 00:20:43.980 POW camps. I think the death rate far exceeded 00:20:43.980 --> 00:20:49.039 the death rate in the German camps. As you research 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:53.549 this, and thought about some of these atrocities, 00:20:55.190 --> 00:21:00.490 is there an explanation or a rationale for why? 00:21:02.369 --> 00:21:07.950 Well, in terms of Western allied prisoners of 00:21:07.950 --> 00:21:10.569 war in German camps, I think the death rate was 00:21:10.569 --> 00:21:14.369 somewhere around like 3 % or something. It was 00:21:14.369 --> 00:21:18.809 pretty small. In the Japanese prisoner of war 00:21:18.809 --> 00:21:23.829 camps, it was somewhere around 27%. If you were 00:21:23.829 --> 00:21:29.130 alternatively a Chinese prisoner, you were basically 00:21:29.130 --> 00:21:35.349 dead if you got taken prisoner. In most cases, 00:21:36.349 --> 00:21:39.630 there were some instances of guys that would 00:21:39.630 --> 00:21:45.069 be maybe impressed into roles as soldiers in 00:21:45.069 --> 00:21:49.470 a puppet army or puppet militia or made to do 00:21:49.470 --> 00:21:55.390 some kind of slave labor. By and large, the Imperial 00:21:55.390 --> 00:21:58.569 Japanese Army did not take Chinese prisoners. 00:21:59.609 --> 00:22:06.509 They killed a lot of them. That was their modus 00:22:06.509 --> 00:22:13.400 operandi. One of the reasons that IJA treated 00:22:13.400 --> 00:22:16.700 prisoners so badly was because of the culture 00:22:16.700 --> 00:22:20.440 that was kind of fostered within the IJA for 00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:25.740 basic training on forward. So there was frequent 00:22:25.740 --> 00:22:32.759 corporal punishment from NCOs that was inflicted 00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:37.759 on the enlisted ranks during basic training and 00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:45.039 even after. And this was quite common. Officers 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:48.759 would also sometimes strike their subordinates. 00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:57.099 All the while, these men are being kind of inculcated 00:22:57.099 --> 00:23:03.000 with the idea that it's very shameful to surrender. 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:12.279 It's very shameful to give up. It's not a fighting 00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:17.059 man does not do this. He doesn't give up the 00:23:17.059 --> 00:23:20.759 fight as long as he has a fighting breath. This 00:23:20.759 --> 00:23:25.279 was in many ways a byproduct of the IJA's doctrinal 00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:32.799 emphasis on morale and spirit and Ilan over kind 00:23:32.799 --> 00:23:39.420 of factors such as firepower or numerical superiority 00:23:39.420 --> 00:23:48.000 or material capability This this was in people 00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:51.279 call it kind of understand it in terms of Bushido 00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:57.160 or the way of the warrior Even really the IJA 00:23:57.160 --> 00:24:02.039 actually in a sense picked and chose what it 00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:05.839 wanted to from the existing tradition or pre 00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:11.180 -existing tradition of Bushido and they basically 00:24:11.180 --> 00:24:18.619 chose the parts that were more suitable to creating 00:24:18.619 --> 00:24:25.200 brainwashed warriors that would kill at the drop 00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:30.519 of a hat and on command. Without any sense of 00:24:30.519 --> 00:24:33.700 humanity, right? If you're gonna kill all the 00:24:33.700 --> 00:24:38.900 Chinese prisoners And and the death rate in the 00:24:38.900 --> 00:24:42.259 Japanese POW camps for Americans and Australians 00:24:42.259 --> 00:24:46.579 and British so high there's really no sense of 00:24:46.579 --> 00:24:50.000 humanity there was there Well, there's no humanity. 00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:55.480 It's also worth noting that Japan went to war 00:24:57.090 --> 00:25:03.930 with limited food supply, right? So you're basically, 00:25:04.210 --> 00:25:08.769 they went to war with only kind of 90 % of the 00:25:08.769 --> 00:25:13.369 food requirements that they needed, which sounds 00:25:13.369 --> 00:25:19.849 okay until you realize that at least probably 00:25:19.849 --> 00:25:23.109 five to 10 % of the population is going to starve 00:25:23.109 --> 00:25:27.630 because of that, if not more. when you take into 00:25:27.630 --> 00:25:33.809 account infrastructure and kind of various inefficiencies 00:25:33.809 --> 00:25:38.089 and things of that nature. So, you know, for 00:25:38.089 --> 00:25:41.109 instance, in Vietnam, towards the end of the 00:25:41.109 --> 00:25:44.210 war in 1944 and five, you had over a million 00:25:44.210 --> 00:25:48.710 people starved to death because the Japanese 00:25:49.420 --> 00:25:53.960 infantrymen were kind of left to wither on the 00:25:53.960 --> 00:25:57.799 vine. Their logistical situation had collapsed 00:25:57.799 --> 00:26:02.559 in part because of the American submarine campaign 00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:06.799 in the latter years of the war and in part because 00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:11.380 the IJA's logistical system was very flawed and 00:26:11.380 --> 00:26:17.180 limited to begin with. But They yeah, we're basically 00:26:17.180 --> 00:26:22.779 just going around forging for food and Basically, 00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:26.480 yes stealing it from they didn't need another 00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:31.680 mouth to feed However, you were a prisoner, but 00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:34.160 let me ask you this as we kind of run through 00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:40.700 some time here and Why is it why is it important 00:26:40.700 --> 00:26:46.819 that the work of the specific atrocities education 00:26:46.819 --> 00:26:51.839 move forward? What is it as an author, a historian, 00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:57.140 a researcher? Give us that sort of big picture 00:26:57.140 --> 00:26:59.839 view of why it's important not to forget this. 00:27:01.339 --> 00:27:04.599 Well, it's important for several reasons. For 00:27:04.599 --> 00:27:10.259 one thing, it's within living memory. And there 00:27:10.259 --> 00:27:15.740 is also a historical memory of all the atrocities 00:27:15.740 --> 00:27:18.660 and misdeeds that the Imperial Japanese Army 00:27:18.660 --> 00:27:23.220 committed in Asia during the war. So in China, 00:27:23.259 --> 00:27:29.200 for example, I think this month, you have films 00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:33.289 being released about Unit 731. And also about 00:27:33.289 --> 00:27:36.849 the rape of Nanking which is probably the more 00:27:36.849 --> 00:27:40.910 Iris Chang wrote a very famous book entitled 00:27:40.910 --> 00:27:46.730 the rape of Nanking I think back in 2003 and 00:27:46.730 --> 00:27:51.089 it did a very good job of chronicling how the 00:27:51.089 --> 00:27:55.450 Imperial Japanese Army basically slaughtered 00:27:55.450 --> 00:27:59.150 probably hundreds of thousands of Chinese in 00:27:59.150 --> 00:28:10.190 Nanking after the fall of the city. These events 00:28:10.190 --> 00:28:17.309 and these historical occurrences are still within 00:28:17.309 --> 00:28:26.140 living memory of many people in East Asia. I 00:28:26.140 --> 00:28:33.960 think that Japan has not really adequately apologized 00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:39.799 for any of the atrocities that it committed during 00:28:39.799 --> 00:28:46.180 the war. And I must say that the American government 00:28:46.180 --> 00:28:52.200 in the post -war era made a conscious decision 00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:57.039 to empower certain elements within Japan that 00:28:57.039 --> 00:29:03.099 were complicit, or in some cases more than complicit, 00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:06.200 in the war crimes that were committed during 00:29:06.200 --> 00:29:09.200 the war. So to give an example, there is a fellow 00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:14.400 named Kishi Nobusuke who oversaw the economy 00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:20.009 and industrialization of Manchuria. and he was 00:29:20.009 --> 00:29:27.109 using slave labor in the millions to basically 00:29:27.109 --> 00:29:31.430 build a military industrial complex in Manchuria. 00:29:31.950 --> 00:29:37.279 But after the war, he was... Basically, he became 00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:40.000 the prime minister of Japan in the late 50s with 00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:45.960 the help of the American CIA, and his grandson, 00:29:46.579 --> 00:29:51.119 a fellow by the name of Abe Shinzo, became the 00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:56.259 prime minister of Japan. So there is a pretty 00:29:56.259 --> 00:30:01.559 straight line that can be drawn between the various 00:30:02.459 --> 00:30:06.240 figures that emerged from the dust of World War 00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:11.160 II and that emerged from the result of World 00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:16.500 War II into the relatively contemporary period. 00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:21.759 That ripple carries forward right to today. Hope 00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:25.200 you enjoyed that discussion with Quinn Cho. We 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:27.940 actually have a longer discussion with him on 00:30:27.940 --> 00:30:30.640 our podcast, which you can go find at any of 00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:34.809 your favorite download locations, look for Veterans 00:30:34.809 --> 00:30:39.490 Radio, and Quinn Cho talks about the Kwantung 00:30:39.490 --> 00:30:43.089 Army as well, which is pre -World War II, but 00:30:43.089 --> 00:30:47.690 I also learned about Unit 731 from him, and there's 00:30:47.690 --> 00:30:52.150 a lot of writing on this in the pacificatrocities 00:30:52.150 --> 00:30:56.779 .org website and books. These are units 731 did 00:30:56.779 --> 00:30:59.799 ghastly medical experiments on people. We know 00:30:59.799 --> 00:31:03.000 about what the Nazis did. We haven't paid much 00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:06.299 attention, I don't think, to what was done by 00:31:06.299 --> 00:31:08.539 the Imperial Japanese Army. So you may want to 00:31:08.539 --> 00:31:11.500 listen to that too. A few words from sponsors 00:31:11.500 --> 00:31:14.839 and supporters and then we'll get on with talking 00:31:14.839 --> 00:31:18.440 about MIAPOW issues. Military veterans touch 00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:20.779 everyone's life. I'm guessing right now you're 00:31:20.779 --> 00:31:23.480 thinking of a veteran, a close friend, relative. 00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:26.559 Maybe it's you. Even the toughest of us sometimes 00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:28.859 need help, but don't know where to turn for support. 00:31:29.279 --> 00:31:30.960 You don't need special training to help a veteran 00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:33.880 in your life. Even small actions can make a world 00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:36.200 of difference. If you know a veteran in crisis, 00:31:36.500 --> 00:31:40.259 please call the Veterans Crisis Line, 800 -273 00:31:40.259 --> 00:31:45.740 -8255. 800 -273 -8255. A message from the U .S. 00:31:46.059 --> 00:31:55.779 Department of Veterans Affairs. 4800. They're 00:31:55.779 --> 00:31:57.819 experts in handling cases before the U .S. Court 00:31:57.819 --> 00:31:59.839 of Appeals for Veterans Claims. Their number 00:31:59.839 --> 00:32:04.380 again, 1 -800 -693 -4800. We want to welcome 00:32:04.380 --> 00:32:08.460 to Veterans Radio today, Air Force veteran Raymond 00:32:08.460 --> 00:32:12.000 Mike Sands. It goes by Mike, so that's what I'm 00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:14.000 going to call him. Mike, welcome to Veterans 00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:17.799 Radio. Thank you for having me. Appreciate everything 00:32:17.799 --> 00:32:20.119 you're doing and getting the word out about what 00:32:20.119 --> 00:32:22.900 we veterans are up to. Well, that's one of the 00:32:22.900 --> 00:32:25.720 stories we want to tell. Most people probably 00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:29.279 don't know that the third Friday of every September 00:32:29.279 --> 00:32:33.700 is National Recognition Day, M -I -A -P -O -W, 00:32:33.880 --> 00:32:36.339 National Recognition Day, and we want to highlight 00:32:36.339 --> 00:32:37.859 that a little bit. We're going to talk about 00:32:37.859 --> 00:32:41.759 that some. Mike served in the Air Force from 00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:49.059 about August of 1967 until sometime in 1971 and 00:32:49.059 --> 00:32:53.480 has comes from, his father was a veteran, an 00:32:53.480 --> 00:32:57.819 Army veteran, World War II, but Mike has never 00:32:57.819 --> 00:33:00.539 walked away from his veteran status and is still 00:33:00.539 --> 00:33:04.019 very active in terms of trying to keep certain 00:33:04.019 --> 00:33:08.220 messages alive here in the state and here nationally. 00:33:09.539 --> 00:33:11.680 Mike, I think most people would be surprised 00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:14.619 to know that there's still 88 ,000 service members 00:33:14.619 --> 00:33:17.400 missing from the wars and conflicts in which 00:33:17.400 --> 00:33:19.920 the US has been engaged. That's a big number. 00:33:20.279 --> 00:33:24.519 For sure. And one of your counterparts in this 00:33:24.519 --> 00:33:27.440 effort is a woman by the name of Marty Eddy who's 00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:31.839 been involved in this since the early 1970s, 00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:35.099 has a family connection as to why she's so active 00:33:35.099 --> 00:33:39.519 in it. But almost every month, maybe almost every 00:33:39.519 --> 00:33:45.380 week, DOD is announcing the identification of 00:33:45.380 --> 00:33:50.079 remains of those 88 ,000 missing service members. 00:33:50.619 --> 00:33:53.599 DNA technology I suppose is how this all gets 00:33:53.599 --> 00:33:58.299 done. But talk about a little bit about what 00:33:58.299 --> 00:34:03.059 drew you into working at this issue and keeping 00:34:03.059 --> 00:34:07.940 this issue alive. Well how much time do you have? 00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:14.139 It's quite fascinating. I don't know if I've 00:34:14.139 --> 00:34:17.679 been blessed or cursed, but, you know, my father 00:34:17.679 --> 00:34:19.659 served at the end of World War II in Germany 00:34:19.659 --> 00:34:25.239 and my family ascended from Eastern Europe. So 00:34:25.239 --> 00:34:28.739 my father, being German, Sprecher Sie Deutsche 00:34:28.739 --> 00:34:33.480 Kleine Bisseau, ended up in Germany at the end 00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:36.519 of the war and he was a truck driver. And I'm 00:34:36.519 --> 00:34:38.969 going, truck driver what's he doing the combat 00:34:38.969 --> 00:34:41.510 infantry badge what why is a guy that worked 00:34:41.510 --> 00:34:43.789 in the motor pool have at the end of the war 00:34:43.789 --> 00:34:48.469 well i found out years years later that he uh 00:34:48.469 --> 00:34:51.670 was part of the program if you will to clean 00:34:51.670 --> 00:34:56.230 up the uh mess after the the russians came in 00:34:56.230 --> 00:34:59.989 and slaughtered the germans so he had what they 00:34:59.989 --> 00:35:04.239 called shell shock at that time And that's one 00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:06.539 of the reasons he was so involved with the American 00:35:06.539 --> 00:35:10.300 Legion. So when I came along, he wanted to keep 00:35:10.300 --> 00:35:13.199 that flag flying. So he signed me up as a charter 00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:15.139 member of the Sons of the American Legion when 00:35:15.139 --> 00:35:18.960 I was 10. So I would go in the parades, I would, 00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:21.199 you know, decorate my bicycle red, white and 00:35:21.199 --> 00:35:26.420 blue and all this. And so in my teens, I became 00:35:26.420 --> 00:35:30.760 draft made, of course. And because of my interest 00:35:30.760 --> 00:35:36.059 in shop class, I was able to pass the Air Force 00:35:36.059 --> 00:35:39.179 qualification test and joined for four years 00:35:39.179 --> 00:35:42.000 as opposed to being drafted for two. But that 00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:44.159 created a situation where my dad said, oh, now 00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:46.800 that you're a veteran, you need to get back involved. 00:35:46.840 --> 00:35:49.139 Well, when the Vietnam vets came home, we weren't 00:35:49.139 --> 00:35:51.900 very popular, of course. And a lot of the World 00:35:51.900 --> 00:35:53.760 War II people say you didn't fight in the real 00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:56.380 war, la, la, la. But my dad always supported 00:35:56.380 --> 00:36:00.039 me. And that's kind of what got my interest. 00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:02.739 But there's a song from the 60s called Ten Years 00:36:02.739 --> 00:36:05.139 After. A lot of us Vietnam guys, you know, we 00:36:05.139 --> 00:36:08.639 had to, you know, reestablish our jobs, our families, 00:36:09.340 --> 00:36:12.739 readjust to being home. And so there was a drought 00:36:12.739 --> 00:36:15.079 there for a long time. So even though I was in 00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:17.519 the American Legion, I didn't do much. I met 00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:22.260 a fellow during when David Bonyer was running 00:36:22.260 --> 00:36:24.780 for office. He's from McComb County and so am 00:36:24.780 --> 00:36:27.840 I. And he was all about veterans in Congress, 00:36:27.860 --> 00:36:31.420 about recognizing our service. And he had a rally 00:36:31.420 --> 00:36:34.460 in Detroit. And a friend of mine and I went there. 00:36:34.780 --> 00:36:37.760 We met a fellow named Jack Devine. Jack Devine 00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:40.780 was one of the founders of Vietnam Veterans of 00:36:40.780 --> 00:36:42.920 America, I'm sorry, Vietnam Veterans of Michigan. 00:36:43.579 --> 00:36:47.599 And later they joined up with Bobby Mueller, 00:36:48.019 --> 00:36:50.400 the Vietnam Veterans of America out of New York. 00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:54.599 And so we became Chapter Nine. And because we're 00:36:54.599 --> 00:36:58.079 Detroiters, people, you guys are pretty tough. 00:36:58.760 --> 00:37:01.880 Literally, we bought a building in the heart 00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:04.500 of the Cass corridor, which at the time was the 00:37:04.500 --> 00:37:07.760 murder capital of America, and bought a building 00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:11.059 from the University of Michigan Regents for $10 00:37:11.059 --> 00:37:15.699 ,000. And this place was a hellhole. I mean, 00:37:15.860 --> 00:37:18.820 the homeless had dragged in all kinds of you 00:37:18.820 --> 00:37:22.400 -know -what and feces, blah, blah, blah. We took 00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:25.739 13 dead cats out of there. But we turned that 00:37:25.739 --> 00:37:29.559 building into a veterans center to help the community, 00:37:29.860 --> 00:37:32.440 to help homeless veterans, to make a difference. 00:37:32.480 --> 00:37:35.420 And I think the record speaks for itself. But 00:37:35.420 --> 00:37:39.340 I'm proud to be member number 61 and be involved 00:37:39.340 --> 00:37:43.000 and be able to carry on the progress, the forward 00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:45.360 progress of Vietnam Veterans of America Chapter 00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:50.559 9. Well, you were a board member for that chapter. 00:37:50.659 --> 00:37:53.460 You're a former commissioner with the Michigan 00:37:53.639 --> 00:37:56.760 Vietnam Memorial Monument that was built on several 00:37:56.760 --> 00:38:01.119 grounds and dedicated 20 years plus now in 2001. 00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:06.659 So you've been active for a long time and sort 00:38:06.659 --> 00:38:11.260 of have a view of the importance of continuing 00:38:11.260 --> 00:38:16.719 to think about our POWs and MIAs. Sure. Talk 00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:21.139 to us a little bit about that. Well again, interesting. 00:38:21.940 --> 00:38:24.420 A couple of things. Number one that I served 00:38:24.420 --> 00:38:27.940 in the Air Force during the bombing of North 00:38:27.940 --> 00:38:31.500 Vietnam and Rolling Thunder, I serviced the F 00:38:31.500 --> 00:38:37.119 -105 Thunder Chief, which has stories. They call 00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:40.059 it the one -man guided missile. They call it 00:38:40.059 --> 00:38:44.659 the Thud. I mean, that aircraft was originally 00:38:44.659 --> 00:38:47.739 designed to carry a nuclear warhead. I don't 00:38:47.739 --> 00:38:49.980 know if you know that, but the F -105 Thunder 00:38:49.980 --> 00:38:53.570 Chief, from the cold war as a bomb bay and the 00:38:53.570 --> 00:38:56.090 bomb bay was designed to carry a nuclear warhead 00:38:56.090 --> 00:39:00.750 and the planes were stationed in Europe and the 00:39:00.750 --> 00:39:03.750 pilots was the strategic air command at the time 00:39:03.750 --> 00:39:07.030 and if the pilots got caught up called up they 00:39:07.030 --> 00:39:09.030 had a specific target that they were given once 00:39:09.030 --> 00:39:11.130 they were called up and they would not return 00:39:11.130 --> 00:39:14.710 from that target because the detonation of the 00:39:14.710 --> 00:39:16.469 nuclear bomb was greater than the speed of the 00:39:16.469 --> 00:39:18.969 aircraft so you could say that we had kamikaze 00:39:18.969 --> 00:39:21.739 pilots so that aircraft was never used for the 00:39:21.739 --> 00:39:24.440 purpose it was intended but when the war started 00:39:24.440 --> 00:39:27.119 in Vietnam they converted it to a fighter bomber 00:39:27.119 --> 00:39:31.920 and loaded it up with everything from anti -personnel 00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:36.539 bombs napalm 500 pound bomb 750 pound bombs and 00:39:36.539 --> 00:39:40.239 so these pilots you know the lead sled they sometimes 00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:45.800 call this use this thing For a purpose that it 00:39:45.800 --> 00:39:47.719 wasn't initially designed for. Anyway, we lost 00:39:47.719 --> 00:39:49.659 a lot of those aircraft. We lost a whole lot 00:39:49.659 --> 00:39:52.539 of those. And I would, you know, send them out. 00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:56.300 I'm a ground crew person, but I was responsible 00:39:56.300 --> 00:39:58.519 for all the flight controls, the landing gear, 00:39:58.639 --> 00:40:00.820 the steering, all that business. And you told 00:40:00.820 --> 00:40:03.440 me earlier, you were over in Thailand. I was 00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:06.340 in Thailand. You know, secretly are coming out 00:40:06.340 --> 00:40:09.400 of Thailand and supporting the war mission. And 00:40:09.400 --> 00:40:13.750 so you know guys... from that base that were 00:40:13.750 --> 00:40:18.050 shot down between POWs or MIAs. And so that's 00:40:18.050 --> 00:40:21.190 kind of where the driver came for you, I take 00:40:21.190 --> 00:40:24.130 it. Oh yeah. Well, not only that, I mean, I'm 00:40:24.130 --> 00:40:26.469 having goosebumps while I'm speaking with you, 00:40:26.630 --> 00:40:28.969 but I don't know if you've heard of Digger O'Dell. 00:40:29.230 --> 00:40:33.650 Oh sure. Digger O'Dell, he flew the same aircraft 00:40:33.650 --> 00:40:37.769 that I serviced, F -105 Thunder Chiefs. And he 00:40:37.769 --> 00:40:41.860 was there before I was. But when I later found 00:40:41.860 --> 00:40:44.539 out that Digger flew out of Carat where I was, 00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:47.340 we kind of bonded. So I got to know Digger very, 00:40:47.340 --> 00:40:50.719 very well. And also he was the public affairs 00:40:50.719 --> 00:40:52.980 fellow for Selfridge Air Base here, which I'm 00:40:52.980 --> 00:40:57.639 also involved with. And just for our listeners 00:40:57.639 --> 00:40:59.159 who don't know this story, as opposed to you, 00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:03.400 he was a POW. Oh, for sure. For five, yeah, yeah. 00:41:03.559 --> 00:41:06.940 Five and a half years. Five years, yeah. So again, 00:41:07.059 --> 00:41:11.380 you have this personal connection with this issue, 00:41:11.539 --> 00:41:14.380 and it really goes kind of beyond just, geez, 00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:16.099 I feel bad for these families who don't know 00:41:16.099 --> 00:41:19.599 what happened to their loved ones. Well, here's 00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:21.980 a story that I would like to share with you. 00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:25.980 So, you know, the war, we pulled out in 73. The 00:41:25.980 --> 00:41:29.960 war was over in 75. But we had our POWs that 00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:33.280 were unaccounted for. And the ones that were 00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:35.679 returned were able to walk. They were, you know, 00:41:35.699 --> 00:41:38.199 looked like they were in reasonable condition. 00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:42.400 But here at Fraser, where I live, there was a 00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:46.400 family that lost, had a missing son, Robert Leon 00:41:46.400 --> 00:41:49.500 Tucci, who was a captain at the time. And he 00:41:49.500 --> 00:41:53.480 was flying an F4 and a two in the secret war 00:41:53.480 --> 00:41:55.800 in Laos. We weren't there, but we were there. 00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:59.039 And that's what my outfit did. When Nixon stopped 00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:02.179 the bombing, our sorties picked up. We were doing 00:42:02.179 --> 00:42:06.300 twice as many sorties. We're saying, if the bombing 00:42:06.300 --> 00:42:08.099 has stopped in Vietnam, why are we doing all 00:42:08.099 --> 00:42:13.199 these? bombing runs. So here where I live they 00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:20.199 have a VFW post 6691 and when the POWs came home 00:42:20.199 --> 00:42:24.380 there was no Robert L. Tucci and so the family 00:42:24.380 --> 00:42:28.719 of Robert they came to the VFW said how come 00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:32.039 Robert's remains or body hasn't been returned. 00:42:32.440 --> 00:42:36.820 So the commander at the time here was Nelson 00:42:36.820 --> 00:42:42.440 Amstel and he partnered with a judge, Frank Zadkoff, 00:42:42.659 --> 00:42:45.619 and they raised money here in Fraser to send 00:42:45.619 --> 00:42:48.579 these two fellas to Paris to negotiate with the 00:42:48.579 --> 00:42:51.440 North Vietnamese to find out where Robert Tucci 00:42:51.440 --> 00:42:56.400 is. So they went there, they had their meeting 00:42:56.400 --> 00:42:59.780 with the North Vietnamese, and the North Vietnamese 00:42:59.780 --> 00:43:03.519 answer to them was, when Richard Nixon pays for 00:43:03.519 --> 00:43:06.219 the damage that he caused by bombing North Vietnam, 00:43:06.489 --> 00:43:09.389 we will let you know about Tucci and many others 00:43:09.389 --> 00:43:12.530 that are unaccounted for. So we found out, you 00:43:12.530 --> 00:43:15.650 know, that Tucci was shot down in Laos, but we 00:43:15.650 --> 00:43:18.329 weren't in Laos. So the local newspaper here, 00:43:18.429 --> 00:43:22.389 the McComb Daily, Mitch Cohesion, started a series 00:43:22.389 --> 00:43:25.190 about where is Robert Tucci? Where are the POWs? 00:43:25.650 --> 00:43:29.929 And so at the same time, the POW -MIA program 00:43:29.929 --> 00:43:33.329 started up. Marty got involved. Vietnam vets 00:43:33.329 --> 00:43:37.400 got involved. And so that kind of kept me going 00:43:37.400 --> 00:43:43.440 with it. And like I said, we kind of hold that 00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:45.760 flag dear because we were part of the initiation 00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:49.679 of starting the POW movement. And the reason 00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:51.980 we're having this conversation, and Mike and 00:43:51.980 --> 00:43:54.119 I have talked about this, is it's still relevant 00:43:54.119 --> 00:43:59.639 today. It may be 50 years later. But even today, 00:43:59.800 --> 00:44:04.269 if you go to a veteran program, there's often 00:44:04.269 --> 00:44:08.849 a table recognizing the M .I .A. POWs and it's 00:44:08.849 --> 00:44:11.469 very symbolic. I had the opportunity to take 00:44:11.469 --> 00:44:13.809 my nephew to one recently. He had no idea what 00:44:13.809 --> 00:44:17.989 the table was about and heard the meaningfulness 00:44:17.989 --> 00:44:22.190 of the lemon, the salt, the upside down glass, 00:44:22.389 --> 00:44:26.650 the empty plate. You know, there's a very important 00:44:26.650 --> 00:44:30.690 symbolism here. But we have to explain that to 00:44:30.690 --> 00:44:35.230 people who weren't around 50 years ago and keep 00:44:35.230 --> 00:44:40.489 keep it alive to know that the country made a 00:44:40.489 --> 00:44:43.750 commitment to bring these guys home and yet maybe 00:44:43.750 --> 00:44:46.409 many many years later but the families still 00:44:46.409 --> 00:44:49.489 really do need and appreciate getting remains 00:44:49.489 --> 00:44:53.289 home and so one of the things projects you're 00:44:53.289 --> 00:44:56.650 working on that let's talk about is trying to 00:44:56.650 --> 00:45:01.630 keep that idea alive in a state capital like 00:45:01.630 --> 00:45:04.889 Lansing, Michigan, where you're working on a 00:45:04.889 --> 00:45:08.210 chair. Talk a little bit about what that project's 00:45:08.210 --> 00:45:12.449 about. Well, I had the opportunity to participate 00:45:12.449 --> 00:45:16.409 in one of the runs for Rolling Thunder. Rolling 00:45:16.409 --> 00:45:21.969 Thunder is sponsored by the motorcycle group 00:45:21.969 --> 00:45:27.590 Rolling Thunder. Memorial Day, each year they 00:45:27.590 --> 00:45:31.250 would have a bike run to the state, to the national 00:45:31.250 --> 00:45:34.610 capital, I'm sorry. And I had the privilege of 00:45:34.610 --> 00:45:36.969 participating because I was on the Michigan Vietnam 00:45:36.969 --> 00:45:39.530 Monument Commission. So I actually got to ride 00:45:39.530 --> 00:45:44.269 in the lead of that group. But the interesting 00:45:44.269 --> 00:45:48.010 sidebar is that I had a Yamaha and these are 00:45:48.010 --> 00:45:50.429 mostly Harleys and a lot of the Vietnam vets, 00:45:50.489 --> 00:45:52.829 you know, they had the Harley Davidsons. And 00:45:52.829 --> 00:45:57.530 so So you got you got you got ribbed for your 00:45:57.530 --> 00:46:00.550 I got ripped but I'm in the front right I'm with 00:46:00.550 --> 00:46:04.050 the Vietnam veteran motorcycle people and when 00:46:04.050 --> 00:46:07.929 we got we real quick we left Michigan here with 00:46:07.929 --> 00:46:12.409 six bikes we got to Monroe with hundreds of bikes 00:46:12.409 --> 00:46:19.690 we got to Ohio we had 2 ,000 bikes so we're going 00:46:19.690 --> 00:46:22.699 into Maryland and there's a Harley dealer that 00:46:22.699 --> 00:46:25.559 is kind of welcoming everybody so I'm in the 00:46:25.559 --> 00:46:28.019 front of the group and the guy's out in front 00:46:28.019 --> 00:46:30.320 he's waving in the Harleys but he's telling me 00:46:30.320 --> 00:46:33.340 no you can't go in there so the the bikers that 00:46:33.340 --> 00:46:35.820 are with me they're going no he doesn't go in 00:46:35.820 --> 00:46:38.340 there we don't go so we got thousands of motorcycles 00:46:38.340 --> 00:46:41.400 backed up trying to get into this Harley -Davidson 00:46:41.400 --> 00:46:44.159 thing so the owner comes out and he looks he 00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:46.340 shakes his head he says go ahead you can go in 00:46:46.340 --> 00:46:52.320 there Let me get you back to the chair that you're 00:46:52.320 --> 00:46:56.599 working at. Sure, sure, sure. So yes, so the 00:46:56.599 --> 00:46:58.760 Rolling Thunder Motorcycle Club, their mission 00:46:58.760 --> 00:47:03.000 is to have a POWMIA chair at every state. Marty 00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:05.059 Eddy's been working with this as long as I've 00:47:05.059 --> 00:47:10.679 known her. And we have been instrumental in, 00:47:10.679 --> 00:47:12.340 like I say, beating the drum, letting people 00:47:12.340 --> 00:47:14.780 know how important this is. And I think if you 00:47:14.780 --> 00:47:18.780 go to any veteran's whatever you want, club, 00:47:18.780 --> 00:47:22.699 I say, you'll see a chair in there. So Michigan 00:47:22.699 --> 00:47:26.400 does not have a POWMI chair. And chapter nine, 00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:29.179 we've been able to raise quite a bit of money. 00:47:29.539 --> 00:47:32.860 And we said, we're gonna buy the chair. So we 00:47:32.860 --> 00:47:36.099 actually went to Lancaster, Pennsylvania. We 00:47:36.099 --> 00:47:40.480 found a custom manufacturer, if you will, that 00:47:40.480 --> 00:47:43.639 they deal with Amish craftsmen. And we modeled 00:47:43.639 --> 00:47:46.480 the chair after the chair in Washington, DC. 00:47:46.780 --> 00:47:50.639 So it's a, they call it a library chair. It's 00:47:50.639 --> 00:47:54.219 white oak, got a brown color to it and a black 00:47:54.219 --> 00:47:58.679 leather cushion. And we also have a 24 inch by 00:47:58.679 --> 00:48:01.780 24 inch bronze plaque that's being made that 00:48:01.780 --> 00:48:04.599 tells the story. Like you said, it has the symbol 00:48:04.599 --> 00:48:09.300 of the POWMIA logo and also the seal of the state 00:48:09.300 --> 00:48:12.519 of Michigan. And I hope this gets to the right 00:48:12.519 --> 00:48:17.920 ears because why? Why on earth? can we not have 00:48:17.920 --> 00:48:22.219 this chair of honor, a national icon in our state 00:48:22.219 --> 00:48:26.960 capital, when Michigan in particular is so significant 00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:30.659 in the history of the military activities in 00:48:30.659 --> 00:48:34.800 America. So I've gone through politicians, I've 00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:36.800 gone through bureaucrats, I've gone through, 00:48:36.800 --> 00:48:40.019 you know, people supporters, and it's just amazing 00:48:40.019 --> 00:48:42.420 to me. And I'm going to say it right to you. 00:48:42.489 --> 00:48:46.909 Shame on these people shame shame shame because 00:48:46.909 --> 00:48:49.789 lest we forget lest we forget and it's not going 00:48:49.789 --> 00:48:51.570 to cost the state of Michigan anything but a 00:48:51.570 --> 00:48:55.690 space to put it well I want to jump on this because 00:48:55.690 --> 00:49:01.590 the whole the POW MIA iconic symbol says at the 00:49:01.590 --> 00:49:05.670 bottom you are not forgotten exactly and and 00:49:05.670 --> 00:49:09.670 I we talked earlier like we have to pass on to 00:49:09.670 --> 00:49:13.389 the younger generations what this is about, why 00:49:13.389 --> 00:49:17.869 it's a sacred trust, and the state capital is 00:49:17.869 --> 00:49:21.489 a place that they bring school kids in by the 00:49:21.489 --> 00:49:24.670 busloads every year. So this would create an 00:49:24.670 --> 00:49:29.989 opportunity for younger people to see that chair 00:49:29.989 --> 00:49:32.550 and ask, hey, what's that about? What's that 00:49:32.550 --> 00:49:36.110 about, exactly. Sure, and the Library and Historical 00:49:36.110 --> 00:49:40.170 Museum is right there adjacent to the memorial. 00:49:40.599 --> 00:49:42.940 and the grounds where the memorial, the Vietnam 00:49:42.940 --> 00:49:46.440 Memorial, is also sacred and it might be a place 00:49:46.440 --> 00:49:49.900 for future wars to be recognized. You know, there'll 00:49:49.900 --> 00:49:52.960 always be wars, I hate to say, but we're kind 00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:56.280 of across from the Library Historical Museum 00:49:56.280 --> 00:49:58.760 and the Supreme Court building and the Capitol 00:49:58.760 --> 00:50:02.099 in this mall area. So we fought very hard. It 00:50:02.099 --> 00:50:05.260 took 11 years to get the Vietnam Memorial there, 00:50:05.539 --> 00:50:09.409 but, you know, we're happy to have that. We call 00:50:09.409 --> 00:50:11.789 it tension and strength. We call that memorial 00:50:11.789 --> 00:50:14.929 tension and strength. Because it's a beam that's 00:50:14.929 --> 00:50:19.210 bent on a curve with a wire. And that shows the 00:50:19.210 --> 00:50:23.010 tension and then the steel and the concrete show 00:50:23.010 --> 00:50:27.349 the strength. And there's 264 names on it. So 00:50:27.349 --> 00:50:29.949 Mike, as we come to a conclusion here, and I 00:50:29.949 --> 00:50:33.750 appreciate you coming on to represent the POWMIA 00:50:33.750 --> 00:50:41.019 community. approach the National Remembrance 00:50:41.019 --> 00:50:45.699 Day September 19th 2025 this year. What final 00:50:45.699 --> 00:50:48.480 words do you want to pass on to our veteran radio 00:50:48.480 --> 00:50:53.119 listeners about the importance of remembering 00:50:53.119 --> 00:50:57.519 POWs and MIAs? We have a motto, for those who 00:50:57.519 --> 00:51:00.460 fought for it freedom has a flavor the protected 00:51:00.460 --> 00:51:03.639 will never know and you know lest we forget you 00:51:03.639 --> 00:51:06.320 mentioned earlier and I'm going to say real quick 00:51:06.489 --> 00:51:10.230 I mean, we have prisoners of war right now in 00:51:10.230 --> 00:51:15.030 Gaza. We have the Vietnamese prisoners of war 00:51:15.030 --> 00:51:18.510 number in up to 500 ,000. Not that they're all 00:51:18.510 --> 00:51:21.530 service people, but it's just amazing to me. 00:51:21.650 --> 00:51:24.289 Lest we forget, and how can we expect our young 00:51:24.289 --> 00:51:26.909 people to step up and serve this country if we 00:51:26.909 --> 00:51:29.230 don't recognize those who are unaccounted for? 00:51:30.570 --> 00:51:33.190 It's very, very important. I appreciate you taking 00:51:33.190 --> 00:51:35.980 the time to have me come on here and you know, 00:51:36.239 --> 00:51:38.519 help with the cause. Well, we've got a moral 00:51:38.519 --> 00:51:40.440 obligation and I think that's what you're trying 00:51:40.440 --> 00:51:43.579 to communicate is that the country has this moral 00:51:43.579 --> 00:51:46.679 obligation and future generations will judge 00:51:46.679 --> 00:51:49.639 us by whether or not we paid attention to it. 00:51:49.920 --> 00:51:53.199 For sure. Mike, thanks for taking some time with 00:51:53.199 --> 00:51:55.980 Veterans Radio today. We really do appreciate 00:51:55.980 --> 00:51:59.739 it. I appreciate what you're doing and God bless 00:51:59.739 --> 00:52:03.610 America and keep her flying. Well, as I said 00:52:03.610 --> 00:52:05.909 at the outset, these were both kind of unusual 00:52:05.909 --> 00:52:09.489 stories to tell but needed to be told. And we 00:52:09.489 --> 00:52:12.630 hope that you found them somewhat inspiring. 00:52:12.690 --> 00:52:14.150 And maybe you want to go learn a little more. 00:52:14.230 --> 00:52:18.289 Maybe you want to keep the MIA POW alive at your 00:52:18.289 --> 00:52:20.789 post or at your church or at your school, whatever 00:52:20.789 --> 00:52:24.929 it might be. So we can't do this program. I think 00:52:24.929 --> 00:52:26.690 we tell you this every week without the help 00:52:26.690 --> 00:52:29.590 of our sponsors. We'd certainly love you to be 00:52:29.590 --> 00:52:32.530 either an individual Donator to the cause you 00:52:32.530 --> 00:52:35.510 can go to veteransradio .org Hit the donate button 00:52:35.510 --> 00:52:39.170 and do that or reach out to Dale at veteransradio 00:52:39.170 --> 00:52:41.230 .org if you'd like to be a corporate sponsor 00:52:41.230 --> 00:52:47.409 We want to thank NVBDC org the gold standard 00:52:47.409 --> 00:52:49.909 for certification of disabled and veteran owned 00:52:49.909 --> 00:52:53.409 businesses the Vietnam Veterans of America National 00:52:53.409 --> 00:52:56.730 Chapter, Legal Help for Veterans, and all they 00:52:56.730 --> 00:53:00.230 do with regards to helping veterans get the disability 00:53:00.230 --> 00:53:03.130 rights that they've earned, the VA Ann Arbor 00:53:03.130 --> 00:53:07.429 Health Care System, and our local posts as well. 00:53:07.949 --> 00:53:10.349 Vietnam Veterans of America, Charles S. Kettles, 00:53:10.389 --> 00:53:15.389 Chapter 310 in Ann Arbor, VFW Graf O 'Hara, Post 00:53:15.389 --> 00:53:21.579 423, American Legion. Erwin Prescon Post 46 in 00:53:21.579 --> 00:53:26.059 Ann Arbor. All of these folks really keep us 00:53:26.059 --> 00:53:29.940 going and keep us on the air. It is a labor of 00:53:29.940 --> 00:53:32.860 love for those of us who do it. We're not getting 00:53:32.860 --> 00:53:37.079 rich doing this at all, but we are getting spiritually 00:53:37.079 --> 00:53:41.619 benefit, if you will, from bringing these stories 00:53:41.619 --> 00:53:44.219 to you and making sure that this history just 00:53:44.219 --> 00:53:49.000 doesn't die on the ash heaps. We're right around 00:53:49.000 --> 00:53:52.619 Veterans Day. You hopefully are going out to 00:53:52.619 --> 00:53:56.340 various programs in your local area wherever 00:53:56.340 --> 00:53:59.960 you're listening to Veterans Radio to participate. 00:54:01.300 --> 00:54:04.239 We've got a couple of days here before Veterans 00:54:04.239 --> 00:54:07.960 Day, but get out and participate. Wear the cap, 00:54:08.840 --> 00:54:11.980 show folks. There's so few of us left who are 00:54:11.980 --> 00:54:16.989 veterans. show the cap, show the flag, get out 00:54:16.989 --> 00:54:19.909 and do those sorts of things, go to the memorials, 00:54:19.989 --> 00:54:24.489 go to the parades so that this is alive and doesn't 00:54:24.489 --> 00:54:27.789 just become dusty old history. And it's really 00:54:27.789 --> 00:54:32.230 also important so that the kids out there kind 00:54:32.230 --> 00:54:37.519 of know who the... military veterans are and 00:54:37.519 --> 00:54:40.219 what they did. We're gonna have a great opportunity 00:54:40.219 --> 00:54:42.719 over the next year to talk about this as the 00:54:42.719 --> 00:54:46.260 Congressional Medal of Honor Society comes to 00:54:46.260 --> 00:54:52.099 Detroit at the end of September of 2026. It'll 00:54:52.099 --> 00:54:56.699 be a great opportunity to help explain to kids 00:54:56.699 --> 00:54:59.400 today, whether they're in grade school, high 00:54:59.400 --> 00:55:04.670 school, early college. that the heroes of yesteryear 00:55:04.670 --> 00:55:07.710 are regular people who did extraordinary things. 00:55:08.070 --> 00:55:11.269 So we'd encourage you to kind of watch for some 00:55:11.269 --> 00:55:15.489 of that as it develops. It's going to be a great 00:55:15.489 --> 00:55:20.010 opportunity here in southeast Michigan. You can 00:55:20.010 --> 00:55:23.510 go to their website which is medalofhonoredetroit 00:55:23.510 --> 00:55:27.409 .com to learn more about that upcoming convention. 00:55:28.010 --> 00:55:31.989 There are only 61 living Medal of Honor recipients. 00:55:32.550 --> 00:55:36.809 So it's a pretty small select group who are in 00:55:36.809 --> 00:55:39.130 there and there's a lot we can learn from them. 00:55:39.130 --> 00:55:42.510 So we'd certainly encourage you to do that. Just 00:55:42.510 --> 00:55:45.389 as we'd encourage you to listen to Veterans Radio 00:55:45.389 --> 00:55:49.929 on your podcast, we post something new. Every 00:55:49.929 --> 00:55:53.929 Tuesday morning, we also post our Sunday program 00:55:53.929 --> 00:55:56.269 that you're listening to so you can catch it 00:55:56.269 --> 00:55:59.230 there if you missed it live on Sunday. But there's 00:55:59.230 --> 00:56:01.550 a lot of good information, a lot of things to 00:56:01.550 --> 00:56:05.489 pass along. So I'm Jim Fossone with Veterans 00:56:05.489 --> 00:56:08.650 Radio. My partner Dale Throneberry will be back 00:56:08.650 --> 00:56:14.489 next week. And until then, you are dismissed.