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So listen in wherever you're at to veteransradio
.org and its podcasts. We want to welcome to
Veterans Radio today Joshua Shores who goes by
Joshua, so I don't know I'm not dissing him.
I already asked him how he wanted to be called.
Josh is a Marine He served for just under four
and a half years. Yeah four and a half years
of the Marine Corps came out as a staff sergeant
and There's been a lot of growth in the subsequent
years and he captured both his four years in
the Marine Corps where he was both in Iraq and
Afghanistan and his time afterwards, the transition
and the issues with that in a book called Counting
on Death, A Marine Infantryman's Journey from
the Frontlines of Combat to the Fight for Peace.
It's really well done, Josh. It really captured
me in reading it. Nice job. Thank you for reading
it. I appreciate that. So thank you for having
me on. You know, you're a 19 -year -old kid and
you say to yourself, I just need time in the
Marine Corps. Yeah. Yeah, I was actually 17 when
I signed the papers, you know. And my dad was
a Marine. My mom's side of the family had mostly
Marines. And then I had my dad -side grandpa
and great -grandpa both served in World War I
and II, you know. And so serving was just something
that felt right, and I'd always had an interest
in. But it wasn't anything that was ever required.
You know, my parents weren't telling me you need
to go join the military. They supported if I
wanted to do the college route. But I knew that's
what I wanted to do. And you grew up in the Midwest.
Give us a little thumbnail of getting through
high school and kind of what that upbringing
was that you brought to the Marine Corps. Sure.
So, yeah, my dad is an entrepreneur. And so I
grew up with that mindset around me and helping
him at his shops and stuff growing up. So, you
know, a lot of the time growing up, spending
it with my dad was helping him build whatever
business he was doing just to be present and
see how that worked. And in high school, I worked
like three or four jobs at the same time juggling.
You know, if it was summer, I was working more.
Winter, I was working less and I had a a very
steady girlfriend that is now my wife. And so
we spent a lot of time together. This is an important
part of the story. He's been married now 20 years.
They went together for a number of years in front
of that. But there was a wrinkle in this as well.
And I think this is, again, a kind of a common
theme among military men in particular. Talk
about that wrinkle. Yeah, so we stopped dating.
So when I moved, I was a year ahead of her in
school. And so when I moved out of town and went
to the Marine Corps, that next year was her senior
year in school. And we had dated at the beginning
part of that. But, you know, life back home being
different from here, she was talking to guys,
just hanging out and having fun. And I got jealous.
And so I just started talking to women out in
California and So we decided to break up for
I think it was like a three -month period in
the fall I think if I was talking to her she
wouldn't say we Decided to break up. Oh, no,
it was me. Yeah, I think I think that's I think
that's right and yeah, and during that time it
was just kind of like well, I'm free I'm about
to go to war so I'm just gonna do whatever I
want and And then right before I left on my pre
-deployment leave, I apologized for all my shenanigans
and asked her if she wanted to start dating again.
And after taking a good slap at one point, she
took me back. So as I say, this is a story a
lot of guys can relate to. Sorry to put you on
the spot, but I wanted to break it out. Because
you are a young Marine and they say you know
what you're a rifleman We're sending you over
so talk about your first deployment There are
two of them. We're going to talk about but this
first one. I think is where As a young guy Your
values your morals your compass is really getting
whipped around Yeah So going there, so when I
first got dropped to one five, I got assigned
to Alpha Company, which was the, in a typical
Marine Corps, you know, training work up, they
have different assigned, you know, different
assigned duties for every company. And ours was
a boat company, which we didn't do any boat training
when we first got there. They had done a little
bit prior to us coming back before they went
and did Fallujah. But it was all Iraq combat
focused. And so when I got dropped there, it
was with OIF -1 and OIF -2 vets who were very
salty. And so there was a lot of expectations
for myself and from them that we needed to be
ready to go to combat for a third time for the
unit, with that being my first time. And so there's
just a lot of expectations of us young guys to
be able to perform and not let the team down.
And so we looked to, you know, we call them the
senior Lance corporals. We looked to, you know,
the seniors that had been there, the non -commissioned
officers, officers, everything. And, you know,
it was just a whirlwind of training. We got dropped
right into like traffic training evolutions for
combat. So the mindset was definitely, you know,
we're going there to kill the enemy. And then
I talk about it a little bit in the book, but
I think the failure as a military force to try
to transition us into a battle space that was
more like, hey, we want to win hearts and minds.
There was a bit of a failure because our mindset
was just go there and kill. And Marines, that's
what we should do. That's what Marine Corps is
great at. And I think it was just kind of a weird
time to be in there in 2005, right after all
the big Pushes from Fallujah and the initial
Ramadi combat so You find yourself in some hot
situations that again sort of tested your your
moral compass you want to talk about that a little
bit yeah, so Combat is a interesting interesting
thing to take part in in that you have you know
your rules of engagement and when you're new
to it, you're like, well, that's easy to remember,
I'll do those things, you know, but then the
situations present themselves. And then the enemy's
tactics, because, you know, a good enemy would
adapt to what our tactics are. And then they
start figuring out what our rules of engagement
are. And so they adapt their combat to, you know,
maybe what we can't, how we can't respond. And
it makes us feel very vulnerable. So It was a
very confusing place to be, especially for, I
think, a lot of the older veterans, because they
had done the initial invasion, which was an obvious
way to do combat. You're just going across and
fighting an enemy. And then Fallujah, too, where
they had dropped leaflets and made announcements
that anyone left in the city is considered an
enemy, to now putting us in Ramadi where we're
trying to mix in with the local populace. And
so that mindset is a hard one to break, especially
after you've experienced heavy combat and you
know what happens when you let your guard down.
So it was a very crazy place of like IEDs all
the time, getting blown up or hearing other units
getting blown up, knowing people that are getting
killed and wounded. And then also having, while
you're going out on those missions and getting
blown up, the goal of that maybe patrol was to
shake hands and kiss babies. And how do you do
that after you're losing people and fighting
cowards in a sense, because a lot of the tactics
were quick ambushes and then they run or they
drop the weapon. So one of the tests your group
had in Ramadi was protecting what was called
the government center where there would be U
.S. troops there almost all the time, thus making
it easy for the terrorists to go, those guys
are going to be there. So we now know where to
put our IEDs. And indeed, you lost some guys
as a result of that. And again, that really threw
based on the notes that you took while you were
there that became part of the part of the book,
counting on death. the loss of those members
in an IED situation at a government center where
you were constantly trying to protect it really
was formative to your experiences. Yeah. And
that's why, you know, I titled it Coming Undeath
because I feel like the psychological effect
of the IED on everyone else that survives then,
because I was blown up. three times in in Ramadi
with IEDs and then we had like grenades I got
I got blown up with separately in Helmand province
but having that many different experiences with
it it's easier if I found it easier and I think
a lot of guys did just saying well I'm not going
to come home from this so I'm just going to do
what I need to to survive and I don't really
care you know Pretty early on you you sort of
said I can feel myself turning into a monster
Mm -hmm. That's a pretty shocking statement Explain
what you meant when you wrote those words in
the book Sure, so The way I looked at the terrorists
we were fighting as it was monsters before I
went, you know, they they killed, you know thousands
of people in 9 -11 and then the war up to that
point and you know the beheadings of their own
people or people of different religions in the
countries that that we were in. You know I had
this vision of what we were there to fight and
in reality like on reflecting and writing the
book when I first started this back in 2009 or
10 whenever it was I started writing this. It
was like well we were doing some of the similar
things, not beheading people and all that, but
there was this weird line that we were trying
to stay on that I watched myself and watched
others stray from just on the psychological effects
of war and the rules that were there. And it
wasn't until I wrote the book and then some of
these podcasts where there was a realization
that came out that Some of the reasons I felt
so much of the guilt that weighed on me was we
were trying to do what we thought our government
and our people and our citizens in America wanted
us to do. And at one point when I had that shooting
that I got an inquiry or investigation on of
that man, it was like, why am I getting investigated
for doing something that we were approved to
do? And now how does this war, like now what
do I do? you know, I thought I was doing what
everyone wanted me to do, what everyone trained
me to do. And instead of nice, nice job, it was,
why did you do that? And you know, you might
go to prison for it, you know, and so it was
a, as a 19 year old kid, you know, who's had,
you know, pretty intense combat at that time
and multiple blast exposure. It was like, I don't
know what my brain was doing, but I was just
in a survival mode. Yeah. And I think what captured
me about your writing here was it's just so candid
and raw about the emotions you were going through
and what you were trying to process and in your
brain but also on a day -to -day basis of what
you run into and see and the reaction from militants
and civilians and how the hell you tell the difference
between them You know, the book's candid enough
to say, hey, at times I felt like I was a bully
or a moron for what I was doing. And that's why
this is not just a typical read. It's really
a good reflection, I think, of the questions
everybody has when put into those situations.
Talk a little bit about the audience you were
writing for. I was writing for, I think, mainly
friends and families of vets. Um, you know, a
lot of the vets, the guys I served with, um,
know the story, you know, and, and everyone,
you know, I was talking with, um, uh, Kelly Thompson,
the Lieutenant Recurrental, the retired Lieutenant
Colonel that wrote the forward for the book.
And, um, and he's like, you know, he was in some
of those firefights and he's like, yeah, did
you remember this thing or this? And I was like,
no, I don't. Um, I don't remember that happening.
And it's just interesting that any one of those
men that served alongside could write a book
and it would be, you know, similar timeline,
different events that they picked up on or witnessed.
And so I was really writing it for from my view.
And to go back to you saying it was very raw,
I came to the the conclusion that I should just
write it as real as I can, because a lot of the
stuff that was weighing on me are the things
that have led me to like suicide attempts and
constantly thinking about killing myself. And
and it's like, well, if I was willing to do that,
why can't I just share a story? And let's see
what other people think. And I think a lot of
guys have that weighing on them. And so, if I
have a book that family or friends can read that
gives a little bit of insight into some of the
things that Vets might be thinking or feeling,
even though we are very good at hiding it, then
that's a win in my book. Yeah. It gives a little
understanding of it, you know. I think you've
accomplished that. I think this is a book that
should be given to friends and family, spouses
and loved ones to get a little peek inside what
maybe their marine or army vet went through in
combat. You have a section on sunflowers, my
note says sunflowers and blood and I'm going
to make you talk about it a little bit, but there's
a line in it that says, in that particular section
on page 62 that says, war turns the beautiful
into the ghastly, the kind into the cruel. Damn,
man. Were you an English major? What a great
turn of phrase, but really it's a bit of a trigger.
Talk about it for you. Yeah, so we lost five
guys in an IED blast from second platoon and
our platoon was tasked with doing the quick response
force for that and so we were out there very
shortly after it happened and where I dismounted
from um on my vehicle I had to walk through a
it was like a small I don't know quarter acres
or smaller lot of sunflowers um that were about
knee high a little maybe mid -thigh high and
um I walked through it and I remember just looking
down at them as I'm walking trying to make sure
there's not another IED or anything else that
might be in there uh as I'm looking down I start
noticing there's debris and then um blood splatter
on the petals of these flowers and um in knowing
that, you know, the smells and everything else
that were there of the five guys that had died,
um, just forever ruined the sunflowers for me.
You know, I can't, um, I can't look at a sunflower
and see anything beautiful. It's just like, I
see that, you know, and again, that's one of
those lessons for our family members, because
unless you express that, nobody would know why
that's a trigger, right? They would think, well,
look, I'm a bunch of your wife or you walk through
a beautiful flower shop and a bunch of sunflowers.
We have to express that, hey, this triggers this
memory for me so that our friends and families
know that and can work with that. But keep going
back to family because during the middle of this,
you sort of got to a point where you're accepting
death. and decide to end your relationship with
your fiance? Yep. I called off the marriage in
the middle of it being planned because we were
planning on getting married right when I returned
from Iraq. I was numb to everything. This is
after my friends had died. It was July 17th or
12th or something like that. I have a little
black book that would be I've often thought it
would be cool to publish or do it like some kind
of a company document to the book because it's
it's notes I took, but I stopped writing it at
that point. I said, no, screw it. Why am I trying
to even remember this? I will never forget it.
Why am I writing notes? And at that point, I
said, I'm not going to make it home. I'll call
off the wedding. And so I went into the phone
trailer and called my wife like an hour before
we were leaving for the government center, which
is a four day post that we'd stand and I didn't
have a chance to call or she wouldn't have a
chance to communicate with me during that time
so I kind of set myself up for failure by doing
it right before we left and then my friends you
know on post and at the government center convinced
me that I was being an idiot and that I was going
to make it back um and so the the day I got back
I called and said I'm sorry you know and then
of course it wasn't just an easy oh that's okay
you know but I think that was her first instance
of seeing that there were a lot of changes in
me happening you know you actually got to the
point where you write that at one point you felt
you didn't deserve to come home yeah yeah like
seeing the quality of of men that were surrounding
me dying in the way I upheld their, you know,
them in my mind. And, you know, it was like,
well, why, why does this three time combat veteran
have to go die? It should be me, right? You know,
why this, this person survived way more combat
than me. You know, I don't, I shouldn't be here.
I'm not as good of a Marine as them. And again,
I think that's the sort of thing a lot of people
think about. Why I like the book so much as it
expresses this and and makes us face it head
-on But you do come out of Iraq you get home
you come you get married in 2019. I believe it
is 2005 2005 yeah October of 05 and and now it's
You're getting close to the tour being up to
you reenlist. What do you do? What do you do?
Have you proven everything you wanted to prove
to yourself a lot a lot of stuff going on in
your head, isn't there? Yep. Yeah, and I had
actually So my second deployment after I got
back was to the 31st Mew where we did on like
a Southeast Asia Float basically and we went
to Okinawa China in the Philippines and so there's
no combat in that one and after I came off that
They said, hey, we're starting up this new organization
or this new one had just been started up called
MARSOC, Marine Special Operations Command. And
they were looking for infantry, combat infantry
volunteers at the time from one five as they
were already like pulling guys from recon and
they had stood down force recon to make MARSOC.
So a lot of those guys just kind of went right
to there. And so I talked with a couple of my
friends and said, Hey, do you want to extend
our time? to go do MARSOC and it sounded like
a cool thing to attempt to do. And so I talked
to my wife and said, hey, what are your thoughts
if I, instead of getting out, which I was supposed
to do, what if I extend my time and go to Marine
Special Operations? And we talked about it and
she understood that I felt like I needed to do
that. And especially because I assumed that most
likely we'd be going to combat and I had combat
experience that I felt would be wasteful just
to get out of the Marine Corps with. Um, you
know, and, and now having been a, I was a corporal
at the time, a senior corporal, I just felt it
was my duty to, to pass some of that on to younger
guys. So, um, or people, maybe that, that hadn't
been the combat. And so we extended and I went
through the Marsoc, um, all that training and
ended up having to send my wife home during that,
because we just never saw each other. It was
so busy training and, um, And then that led us
to go into Afghanistan. And how long was that
tour? That was December through April. And before
that, we went to actually the Philippines for
a month and lived there. And we were doing foreign
internal defense training. So we cross -trained
their Philippine drug enforcement agents and
some of their special forces. It was NBI, the
National Bureau of Investigation for the Philippines.
So we did a month -long training program for
them where I was the chief instructor there.
And that was an awesome experience too. It was
76 students. The book talks a lot about coming
home too. And again, it's candid. It's what you
want to understand what's going on in a guy's
head and help get a look at what other vets may
be doing. You write, I lost track of my soul
and when I accepted my death, I became the enemy.
I turned into a terrorist in a foreign land and
displayed little mercy toward my opponents. All
that's rolling around in your head as you get
out and you describe it, you write, one word
sums up my experience of leaving the active duty
military and returning home, loneliness. That's
a lot to carry. And it's a lot to carry by yourself.
How did you go through that phase? I drank a
lot and isolated myself. So I told you this book
is candid and Josh Shores is nothing but candid.
Again, a lot of guys do that. How do you keep
going through that and not ending up on the slab?
Yeah, I just... I think, honestly, there was
something that happened along the way there.
My brother -in -law died in a car accident right
after I got out, like three months after I got
out of the Marine Corps. And so my wife and I
had a lot of optimism in what life was going
to be while I'm still going through stuff. And
so when my brother -in -law died, it was like,
well, now that my rock, my wife has been patient
with me and supportive, is falling apart. It's
like, do I be, it's like, you know, you have
to make a decision. And my decision is I want
this family to work. And so, you know, I just
kind of put walls up and, and then it was like,
how can I be supportive of my wife? You know,
that's the most important thing at this point.
And so it kind of had to put a lot of stuff aside.
And at that point I said, well, I can't, I'm
having trouble doing this. You know, I need help.
And so I went to the VA and just said, I need
help. And they started me in a program there.
So at the end of the day, the program, it was
supposed to be just me in a meeting. And I said,
because of the situation with my wife and I and
her brother passing away, I said, I can't do
this alone. I can't do all this talking at these
sessions and then come home and feel the way
I do without my wife understanding what's going
on. She doesn't have the patience for it. It's
not fair to her. and so I asked if she could
come in on the sessions and they said well we
can't do couples therapy and I said so you'd
rather just me kill myself or do something else
than then have my wife sit in with me is that
is that where we're at with this it's ridiculous
and they said well let's we'll just have her
sit in and it ended up being something that was
kind of a couples therapy and it saved myself
and my marriage and um and it was a lot better
for my wife to be sitting in and hearing me talk
about the things that were weighing on me versus
me going to the session and then driving the
45 minutes back home and not wanting to talk
about anything. So you call out in the book through
our almost year -long weekly sessions, Dr. Laura
gave both of us the tools to make it through
relationship and personal issues. And I want
to highlight because a lot of folks, a lot of
guys think, well, I'm not going to the VA. They
don't care, blah, blah, blah. But you call out
that the mental health therapy that sessions
you got from the VA made the difference. It's
work, you write somewhere, it's hard work. But
don't cut off that avenue just because you think
those people don't care. They care, don't they?
Yeah, then they do. And that's the thing is,
from what my experience has been with the VA
system, at least, is they're not going to reach
out to every vet and say, how are you doing?
They're just not, it's impossible. And it's a
governmental run program that supports veterans,
but you as a veteran have to look at yourself
and say, I need this help, or it's time now,
or take the cues from your family. And that was
another thing that like there were cues from
my family members of like, do you need help?
Maybe you should stop drinking as much. And,
you know, and so like, you have to be aware enough
and willing enough to help yourself by reaching
out and being persistent. You have to be your
own advocate. If they're not doing a good enough
job, you need to be the squeaky wheel that gets
the grease. And, and yeah, you know, I had to
go do some of those things and it was tough at
first, but once I got the care, it wasn't shitty
care. And I think that's what I hear from a lot
of vets is like, they don't care. In my experience,
after I started the program and now even still,
like I still see a therapist at least quarterly,
if not more when I'm struggling and And that's
done through the community care from the VA.
And I had to be an advocate to get there. And
I had to say to myself that I need it. You have
to be able to say that. And that's a big step.
And it takes a lot because it's not weak, but
you don't want to come off as weak. And I think
that's what a lot of us struggle with. You also
went out and got some more education. You picked
up a business degree, which gave you some direction.
And we'll do a full circle here, come back around.
As you said, at the outset in high school, you
worked with your dad. He was an entrepreneur,
a number of different businesses, but just sort
of needed that education and experience. And
now you're back in that world of being an entrepreneur.
Talk to us a little bit about, you know, we've
gone through the bad stuff. Let's talk about
a little good stuff. I think the people have
asked me often, like, would you redo it all again?
Would you want the same life? And I wouldn't
be as open to life, I think, had I not been so
close to death and accepted it really and seen
what that really looks like. And so I really,
you know, the thing the Marine Corps had done
for me is show me that you can get through anything
and there's no obstacle, you know, it doesn't.
even if you don't have the right tools, you'll
make the right tools, you'll find the right tools,
and you'll make it happen. And so that mindset
has carried me through my life as an entrepreneur
and some of the businesses I've started have
not done very well. Some of them have been okay,
but it's just like I have this drive in me to
keep doing. And I think that is both from my
father, but also the Marine Corps instilling
and showing me my own limits. and showing me
how I can overcome those. So it's directly translated
and yeah. It's made you who you are today. And
Josh Shores, we really appreciate the time that
you spent with Veterans Radio today. The book
is Counting on Death. It's on the Casemate imprint.
Where can folks find this if they want a candid
look at? what it's all about when you're a Marine
Infantryman in combat. Yes, you can buy it on
Amazon. Like you said, Chasemate's site directly.
They have it on Audible and Barnes and Noble.
I think where books are sold, books a million.
Well, we wish you and your family, I can't believe
she kept putting up with you. Me either. I lost
count of how many times you tried to get rid
of her, but she's too good for that. We appreciate
your time and wish you nothing but the best.
Thank you. I really appreciate it, Jim. And I
want to thank everybody for listening to Veterans
Radio today. I am Jim Fossone. It's been a pleasure
to be your host. I'm a Veterans disability lawyer
at Legal Help for Veterans and you can reach
us at 800 -693 -4800 or legalhelpforveterans
.com on the web. You can follow Veterans Radio
on Facebook and listen to its podcasts and internet
radio shows by visiting us at veteransradio .org.
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VA can help you on your claims and your appeals.
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Vietnam Veterans of America, that's chapter 310,
VFW Graf O 'Hara Post 423, the American Legion.
Erwin Preskin, Post 46 in Ann Arbor as well,
the VA Ann Arbor Health Care System, and certainly
the National Vietnam Veterans of America Association.
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