WEBVTT 00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:09.060 All across America and around the world, this 00:00:09.060 --> 00:00:15.160 is Veterans Radio. This is Veterans Radio. Good 00:00:15.160 --> 00:00:18.600 day. I'm Jim Fossone. I'm the Officer of the 00:00:18.600 --> 00:00:20.699 Deck today here on Veterans Radio and thanks 00:00:20.699 --> 00:00:23.469 for joining us. We've got some interesting stories 00:00:23.469 --> 00:00:25.649 for you. We always want to remind you you can 00:00:25.649 --> 00:00:28.750 find more about Veterans Radio at its Facebook 00:00:28.750 --> 00:00:32.429 site or at the web, veteransradio .org, where 00:00:32.429 --> 00:00:35.270 we're on the web 24 -7. You can find a lot of 00:00:35.270 --> 00:00:38.310 our podcasts there as well. We post new ones 00:00:38.310 --> 00:00:42.490 every Tuesday, so you can get a new story, a 00:00:42.490 --> 00:00:45.229 new interview, something you didn't know before 00:00:45.229 --> 00:00:49.219 by going to VeteransRadio .org. 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We were recently identified 00:02:20.340 --> 00:02:25.120 as the in the 15th spot, if you will, of the 00:02:25.120 --> 00:02:30.060 top 100 veteran -centric podcasts by Feet Spot. 00:02:30.639 --> 00:02:33.020 So really pretty proud of being in the top 15. 00:02:33.620 --> 00:02:38.400 So listen in wherever you're at to veteransradio 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:42.669 .org and its podcasts. We want to welcome to 00:02:42.669 --> 00:02:46.590 Veterans Radio today Joshua Shores who goes by 00:02:46.590 --> 00:02:50.169 Joshua, so I don't know I'm not dissing him. 00:02:50.169 --> 00:02:51.789 I already asked him how he wanted to be called. 00:02:52.009 --> 00:02:56.689 Josh is a Marine He served for just under four 00:02:56.689 --> 00:02:58.509 and a half years. Yeah four and a half years 00:02:58.509 --> 00:03:02.289 of the Marine Corps came out as a staff sergeant 00:03:02.289 --> 00:03:06.909 and There's been a lot of growth in the subsequent 00:03:06.909 --> 00:03:10.900 years and he captured both his four years in 00:03:10.900 --> 00:03:14.680 the Marine Corps where he was both in Iraq and 00:03:14.680 --> 00:03:19.259 Afghanistan and his time afterwards, the transition 00:03:19.259 --> 00:03:21.939 and the issues with that in a book called Counting 00:03:21.939 --> 00:03:25.280 on Death, A Marine Infantryman's Journey from 00:03:25.280 --> 00:03:29.020 the Frontlines of Combat to the Fight for Peace. 00:03:29.479 --> 00:03:33.020 It's really well done, Josh. It really captured 00:03:33.020 --> 00:03:36.180 me in reading it. Nice job. Thank you for reading 00:03:36.180 --> 00:03:38.460 it. I appreciate that. So thank you for having 00:03:38.460 --> 00:03:42.810 me on. You know, you're a 19 -year -old kid and 00:03:42.810 --> 00:03:45.669 you say to yourself, I just need time in the 00:03:45.669 --> 00:03:50.270 Marine Corps. Yeah. Yeah, I was actually 17 when 00:03:50.270 --> 00:03:54.229 I signed the papers, you know. And my dad was 00:03:54.229 --> 00:03:57.610 a Marine. My mom's side of the family had mostly 00:03:57.610 --> 00:04:00.689 Marines. And then I had my dad -side grandpa 00:04:00.689 --> 00:04:03.030 and great -grandpa both served in World War I 00:04:03.030 --> 00:04:07.389 and II, you know. And so serving was just something 00:04:07.389 --> 00:04:10.520 that felt right, and I'd always had an interest 00:04:10.520 --> 00:04:13.080 in. But it wasn't anything that was ever required. 00:04:13.340 --> 00:04:15.439 You know, my parents weren't telling me you need 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:17.759 to go join the military. They supported if I 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:20.339 wanted to do the college route. But I knew that's 00:04:20.339 --> 00:04:24.120 what I wanted to do. And you grew up in the Midwest. 00:04:24.220 --> 00:04:26.680 Give us a little thumbnail of getting through 00:04:26.680 --> 00:04:29.040 high school and kind of what that upbringing 00:04:29.040 --> 00:04:32.160 was that you brought to the Marine Corps. Sure. 00:04:32.519 --> 00:04:36.699 So, yeah, my dad is an entrepreneur. And so I 00:04:36.699 --> 00:04:40.800 grew up with that mindset around me and helping 00:04:40.800 --> 00:04:46.019 him at his shops and stuff growing up. So, you 00:04:46.019 --> 00:04:47.699 know, a lot of the time growing up, spending 00:04:47.699 --> 00:04:50.620 it with my dad was helping him build whatever 00:04:50.620 --> 00:04:53.019 business he was doing just to be present and 00:04:53.019 --> 00:04:56.860 see how that worked. And in high school, I worked 00:04:56.860 --> 00:05:00.120 like three or four jobs at the same time juggling. 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:02.920 You know, if it was summer, I was working more. 00:05:03.199 --> 00:05:06.399 Winter, I was working less and I had a a very 00:05:06.399 --> 00:05:10.779 steady girlfriend that is now my wife. And so 00:05:10.779 --> 00:05:12.920 we spent a lot of time together. This is an important 00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:16.720 part of the story. He's been married now 20 years. 00:05:17.579 --> 00:05:20.079 They went together for a number of years in front 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:24.800 of that. But there was a wrinkle in this as well. 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:27.680 And I think this is, again, a kind of a common 00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:33.279 theme among military men in particular. Talk 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:37.860 about that wrinkle. Yeah, so we stopped dating. 00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:40.079 So when I moved, I was a year ahead of her in 00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:42.899 school. And so when I moved out of town and went 00:05:42.899 --> 00:05:46.519 to the Marine Corps, that next year was her senior 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:50.560 year in school. And we had dated at the beginning 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:55.459 part of that. But, you know, life back home being 00:05:55.459 --> 00:05:58.459 different from here, she was talking to guys, 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:01.040 just hanging out and having fun. And I got jealous. 00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:04.319 And so I just started talking to women out in 00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:08.720 California and So we decided to break up for 00:06:08.720 --> 00:06:11.000 I think it was like a three -month period in 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:14.319 the fall I think if I was talking to her she 00:06:14.319 --> 00:06:17.139 wouldn't say we Decided to break up. Oh, no, 00:06:17.259 --> 00:06:19.639 it was me. Yeah, I think I think that's I think 00:06:19.639 --> 00:06:24.439 that's right and yeah, and during that time it 00:06:24.439 --> 00:06:26.959 was just kind of like well, I'm free I'm about 00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:30.300 to go to war so I'm just gonna do whatever I 00:06:30.300 --> 00:06:34.019 want and And then right before I left on my pre 00:06:34.019 --> 00:06:38.459 -deployment leave, I apologized for all my shenanigans 00:06:38.459 --> 00:06:42.180 and asked her if she wanted to start dating again. 00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:47.860 And after taking a good slap at one point, she 00:06:47.860 --> 00:06:53.060 took me back. So as I say, this is a story a 00:06:53.060 --> 00:06:57.899 lot of guys can relate to. Sorry to put you on 00:06:57.899 --> 00:07:00.100 the spot, but I wanted to break it out. Because 00:07:00.100 --> 00:07:03.199 you are a young Marine and they say you know 00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:06.779 what you're a rifleman We're sending you over 00:07:06.779 --> 00:07:10.199 so talk about your first deployment There are 00:07:10.199 --> 00:07:12.100 two of them. We're going to talk about but this 00:07:12.100 --> 00:07:19.259 first one. I think is where As a young guy Your 00:07:19.259 --> 00:07:24.660 values your morals your compass is really getting 00:07:24.660 --> 00:07:31.000 whipped around Yeah So going there, so when I 00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:34.379 first got dropped to one five, I got assigned 00:07:34.379 --> 00:07:37.100 to Alpha Company, which was the, in a typical 00:07:37.100 --> 00:07:42.079 Marine Corps, you know, training work up, they 00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:43.660 have different assigned, you know, different 00:07:43.660 --> 00:07:45.879 assigned duties for every company. And ours was 00:07:45.879 --> 00:07:48.060 a boat company, which we didn't do any boat training 00:07:48.060 --> 00:07:49.759 when we first got there. They had done a little 00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:54.279 bit prior to us coming back before they went 00:07:54.279 --> 00:07:57.509 and did Fallujah. But it was all Iraq combat 00:07:57.509 --> 00:08:00.490 focused. And so when I got dropped there, it 00:08:00.490 --> 00:08:04.449 was with OIF -1 and OIF -2 vets who were very 00:08:04.449 --> 00:08:07.649 salty. And so there was a lot of expectations 00:08:07.649 --> 00:08:10.110 for myself and from them that we needed to be 00:08:10.110 --> 00:08:13.889 ready to go to combat for a third time for the 00:08:13.889 --> 00:08:18.509 unit, with that being my first time. And so there's 00:08:18.509 --> 00:08:21.550 just a lot of expectations of us young guys to 00:08:21.550 --> 00:08:23.790 be able to perform and not let the team down. 00:08:24.340 --> 00:08:26.459 And so we looked to, you know, we call them the 00:08:26.459 --> 00:08:28.759 senior Lance corporals. We looked to, you know, 00:08:28.759 --> 00:08:31.379 the seniors that had been there, the non -commissioned 00:08:31.379 --> 00:08:35.539 officers, officers, everything. And, you know, 00:08:35.580 --> 00:08:37.440 it was just a whirlwind of training. We got dropped 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:41.919 right into like traffic training evolutions for 00:08:41.919 --> 00:08:47.200 combat. So the mindset was definitely, you know, 00:08:47.240 --> 00:08:50.299 we're going there to kill the enemy. And then 00:08:50.299 --> 00:08:51.860 I talk about it a little bit in the book, but 00:08:51.860 --> 00:08:56.929 I think the failure as a military force to try 00:08:56.929 --> 00:08:59.970 to transition us into a battle space that was 00:08:59.970 --> 00:09:02.149 more like, hey, we want to win hearts and minds. 00:09:03.529 --> 00:09:05.450 There was a bit of a failure because our mindset 00:09:05.450 --> 00:09:09.610 was just go there and kill. And Marines, that's 00:09:09.610 --> 00:09:11.690 what we should do. That's what Marine Corps is 00:09:11.690 --> 00:09:15.690 great at. And I think it was just kind of a weird 00:09:15.690 --> 00:09:19.690 time to be in there in 2005, right after all 00:09:19.690 --> 00:09:23.059 the big Pushes from Fallujah and the initial 00:09:23.059 --> 00:09:28.940 Ramadi combat so You find yourself in some hot 00:09:28.940 --> 00:09:33.360 situations that again sort of tested your your 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:35.100 moral compass you want to talk about that a little 00:09:35.100 --> 00:09:41.759 bit yeah, so Combat is a interesting interesting 00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:45.460 thing to take part in in that you have you know 00:09:45.460 --> 00:09:49.659 your rules of engagement and when you're new 00:09:49.659 --> 00:09:51.480 to it, you're like, well, that's easy to remember, 00:09:51.500 --> 00:09:54.220 I'll do those things, you know, but then the 00:09:54.220 --> 00:09:56.759 situations present themselves. And then the enemy's 00:09:56.759 --> 00:10:00.500 tactics, because, you know, a good enemy would 00:10:00.500 --> 00:10:03.139 adapt to what our tactics are. And then they 00:10:03.139 --> 00:10:04.799 start figuring out what our rules of engagement 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:10.940 are. And so they adapt their combat to, you know, 00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:15.559 maybe what we can't, how we can't respond. And 00:10:15.559 --> 00:10:18.009 it makes us feel very vulnerable. So It was a 00:10:18.009 --> 00:10:20.269 very confusing place to be, especially for, I 00:10:20.269 --> 00:10:22.929 think, a lot of the older veterans, because they 00:10:22.929 --> 00:10:27.289 had done the initial invasion, which was an obvious 00:10:27.289 --> 00:10:31.049 way to do combat. You're just going across and 00:10:31.049 --> 00:10:32.870 fighting an enemy. And then Fallujah, too, where 00:10:32.870 --> 00:10:36.710 they had dropped leaflets and made announcements 00:10:36.710 --> 00:10:38.549 that anyone left in the city is considered an 00:10:38.549 --> 00:10:40.990 enemy, to now putting us in Ramadi where we're 00:10:40.990 --> 00:10:43.970 trying to mix in with the local populace. And 00:10:43.970 --> 00:10:46.190 so that mindset is a hard one to break, especially 00:10:46.190 --> 00:10:51.590 after you've experienced heavy combat and you 00:10:51.590 --> 00:10:53.210 know what happens when you let your guard down. 00:10:53.950 --> 00:10:59.429 So it was a very crazy place of like IEDs all 00:10:59.429 --> 00:11:02.210 the time, getting blown up or hearing other units 00:11:02.210 --> 00:11:04.429 getting blown up, knowing people that are getting 00:11:04.429 --> 00:11:09.929 killed and wounded. And then also having, while 00:11:09.929 --> 00:11:12.870 you're going out on those missions and getting 00:11:12.870 --> 00:11:18.500 blown up, the goal of that maybe patrol was to 00:11:18.500 --> 00:11:21.600 shake hands and kiss babies. And how do you do 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:25.139 that after you're losing people and fighting 00:11:25.139 --> 00:11:27.659 cowards in a sense, because a lot of the tactics 00:11:27.659 --> 00:11:31.360 were quick ambushes and then they run or they 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:35.539 drop the weapon. So one of the tests your group 00:11:35.539 --> 00:11:39.440 had in Ramadi was protecting what was called 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:44.330 the government center where there would be U 00:11:44.330 --> 00:11:49.750 .S. troops there almost all the time, thus making 00:11:49.750 --> 00:11:52.090 it easy for the terrorists to go, those guys 00:11:52.090 --> 00:11:54.389 are going to be there. So we now know where to 00:11:54.389 --> 00:11:57.330 put our IEDs. And indeed, you lost some guys 00:11:57.330 --> 00:12:03.269 as a result of that. And again, that really threw 00:12:03.269 --> 00:12:05.730 based on the notes that you took while you were 00:12:05.730 --> 00:12:08.450 there that became part of the part of the book, 00:12:08.669 --> 00:12:16.230 counting on death. the loss of those members 00:12:16.230 --> 00:12:20.710 in an IED situation at a government center where 00:12:20.710 --> 00:12:25.350 you were constantly trying to protect it really 00:12:25.350 --> 00:12:29.350 was formative to your experiences. Yeah. And 00:12:29.350 --> 00:12:30.929 that's why, you know, I titled it Coming Undeath 00:12:30.929 --> 00:12:33.070 because I feel like the psychological effect 00:12:33.070 --> 00:12:37.830 of the IED on everyone else that survives then, 00:12:38.250 --> 00:12:43.220 because I was blown up. three times in in Ramadi 00:12:43.220 --> 00:12:46.840 with IEDs and then we had like grenades I got 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:50.500 I got blown up with separately in Helmand province 00:12:50.500 --> 00:12:53.700 but having that many different experiences with 00:12:53.700 --> 00:12:58.559 it it's easier if I found it easier and I think 00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:00.460 a lot of guys did just saying well I'm not going 00:13:00.460 --> 00:13:03.440 to come home from this so I'm just going to do 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:06.100 what I need to to survive and I don't really 00:13:06.100 --> 00:13:11.960 care you know Pretty early on you you sort of 00:13:11.960 --> 00:13:14.799 said I can feel myself turning into a monster 00:13:14.799 --> 00:13:19.539 Mm -hmm. That's a pretty shocking statement Explain 00:13:19.539 --> 00:13:23.000 what you meant when you wrote those words in 00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:28.539 the book Sure, so The way I looked at the terrorists 00:13:28.539 --> 00:13:31.159 we were fighting as it was monsters before I 00:13:31.159 --> 00:13:34.629 went, you know, they they killed, you know thousands 00:13:34.629 --> 00:13:37.769 of people in 9 -11 and then the war up to that 00:13:37.769 --> 00:13:41.070 point and you know the beheadings of their own 00:13:41.070 --> 00:13:43.149 people or people of different religions in the 00:13:43.149 --> 00:13:47.350 countries that that we were in. You know I had 00:13:47.350 --> 00:13:50.110 this vision of what we were there to fight and 00:13:50.110 --> 00:13:54.009 in reality like on reflecting and writing the 00:13:54.009 --> 00:13:58.190 book when I first started this back in 2009 or 00:13:58.190 --> 00:14:01.309 10 whenever it was I started writing this. It 00:14:01.309 --> 00:14:05.029 was like well we were doing some of the similar 00:14:05.029 --> 00:14:07.590 things, not beheading people and all that, but 00:14:07.590 --> 00:14:11.110 there was this weird line that we were trying 00:14:11.110 --> 00:14:15.590 to stay on that I watched myself and watched 00:14:15.590 --> 00:14:19.409 others stray from just on the psychological effects 00:14:19.409 --> 00:14:22.690 of war and the rules that were there. And it 00:14:22.690 --> 00:14:25.610 wasn't until I wrote the book and then some of 00:14:25.610 --> 00:14:27.649 these podcasts where there was a realization 00:14:27.649 --> 00:14:32.320 that came out that Some of the reasons I felt 00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:36.539 so much of the guilt that weighed on me was we 00:14:36.539 --> 00:14:38.659 were trying to do what we thought our government 00:14:38.659 --> 00:14:41.059 and our people and our citizens in America wanted 00:14:41.059 --> 00:14:45.299 us to do. And at one point when I had that shooting 00:14:45.299 --> 00:14:49.940 that I got an inquiry or investigation on of 00:14:49.940 --> 00:14:53.159 that man, it was like, why am I getting investigated 00:14:53.159 --> 00:14:55.100 for doing something that we were approved to 00:14:55.100 --> 00:14:59.159 do? And now how does this war, like now what 00:14:59.159 --> 00:15:01.240 do I do? you know, I thought I was doing what 00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:02.960 everyone wanted me to do, what everyone trained 00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:07.059 me to do. And instead of nice, nice job, it was, 00:15:07.460 --> 00:15:09.360 why did you do that? And you know, you might 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:13.659 go to prison for it, you know, and so it was 00:15:13.659 --> 00:15:18.159 a, as a 19 year old kid, you know, who's had, 00:15:18.179 --> 00:15:20.220 you know, pretty intense combat at that time 00:15:20.220 --> 00:15:23.240 and multiple blast exposure. It was like, I don't 00:15:23.240 --> 00:15:25.700 know what my brain was doing, but I was just 00:15:25.700 --> 00:15:29.720 in a survival mode. Yeah. And I think what captured 00:15:29.720 --> 00:15:33.580 me about your writing here was it's just so candid 00:15:33.580 --> 00:15:37.519 and raw about the emotions you were going through 00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:41.039 and what you were trying to process and in your 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:43.620 brain but also on a day -to -day basis of what 00:15:43.620 --> 00:15:48.120 you run into and see and the reaction from militants 00:15:48.120 --> 00:15:50.799 and civilians and how the hell you tell the difference 00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:55.080 between them You know, the book's candid enough 00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:57.320 to say, hey, at times I felt like I was a bully 00:15:57.320 --> 00:16:01.279 or a moron for what I was doing. And that's why 00:16:01.279 --> 00:16:03.820 this is not just a typical read. It's really 00:16:03.820 --> 00:16:08.980 a good reflection, I think, of the questions 00:16:08.980 --> 00:16:12.580 everybody has when put into those situations. 00:16:13.259 --> 00:16:15.220 Talk a little bit about the audience you were 00:16:15.220 --> 00:16:20.899 writing for. I was writing for, I think, mainly 00:16:20.899 --> 00:16:23.710 friends and families of vets. Um, you know, a 00:16:23.710 --> 00:16:26.669 lot of the vets, the guys I served with, um, 00:16:26.789 --> 00:16:29.210 know the story, you know, and, and everyone, 00:16:29.250 --> 00:16:32.570 you know, I was talking with, um, uh, Kelly Thompson, 00:16:33.049 --> 00:16:35.029 the Lieutenant Recurrental, the retired Lieutenant 00:16:35.029 --> 00:16:36.850 Colonel that wrote the forward for the book. 00:16:37.090 --> 00:16:39.809 And, um, and he's like, you know, he was in some 00:16:39.809 --> 00:16:41.289 of those firefights and he's like, yeah, did 00:16:41.289 --> 00:16:43.230 you remember this thing or this? And I was like, 00:16:43.230 --> 00:16:45.730 no, I don't. Um, I don't remember that happening. 00:16:45.769 --> 00:16:48.029 And it's just interesting that any one of those 00:16:48.029 --> 00:16:50.409 men that served alongside could write a book 00:16:50.409 --> 00:16:53.830 and it would be, you know, similar timeline, 00:16:53.850 --> 00:16:56.730 different events that they picked up on or witnessed. 00:16:57.590 --> 00:17:00.809 And so I was really writing it for from my view. 00:17:01.210 --> 00:17:03.970 And to go back to you saying it was very raw, 00:17:05.150 --> 00:17:09.490 I came to the the conclusion that I should just 00:17:09.490 --> 00:17:11.509 write it as real as I can, because a lot of the 00:17:11.509 --> 00:17:13.809 stuff that was weighing on me are the things 00:17:13.809 --> 00:17:16.390 that have led me to like suicide attempts and 00:17:16.390 --> 00:17:18.509 constantly thinking about killing myself. And 00:17:18.509 --> 00:17:21.869 and it's like, well, if I was willing to do that, 00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:24.319 why can't I just share a story? And let's see 00:17:24.319 --> 00:17:27.000 what other people think. And I think a lot of 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:29.680 guys have that weighing on them. And so, if I 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:34.619 have a book that family or friends can read that 00:17:34.619 --> 00:17:37.220 gives a little bit of insight into some of the 00:17:37.220 --> 00:17:40.619 things that Vets might be thinking or feeling, 00:17:40.660 --> 00:17:42.480 even though we are very good at hiding it, then 00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:44.660 that's a win in my book. Yeah. It gives a little 00:17:44.660 --> 00:17:47.240 understanding of it, you know. I think you've 00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:49.099 accomplished that. I think this is a book that 00:17:49.099 --> 00:17:51.359 should be given to friends and family, spouses 00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:54.339 and loved ones to get a little peek inside what 00:17:54.339 --> 00:17:59.940 maybe their marine or army vet went through in 00:17:59.940 --> 00:18:04.900 combat. You have a section on sunflowers, my 00:18:04.900 --> 00:18:06.660 note says sunflowers and blood and I'm going 00:18:06.660 --> 00:18:08.660 to make you talk about it a little bit, but there's 00:18:08.660 --> 00:18:11.799 a line in it that says, in that particular section 00:18:11.799 --> 00:18:15.720 on page 62 that says, war turns the beautiful 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:22.000 into the ghastly, the kind into the cruel. Damn, 00:18:22.140 --> 00:18:27.099 man. Were you an English major? What a great 00:18:27.099 --> 00:18:30.440 turn of phrase, but really it's a bit of a trigger. 00:18:30.740 --> 00:18:36.339 Talk about it for you. Yeah, so we lost five 00:18:36.339 --> 00:18:40.299 guys in an IED blast from second platoon and 00:18:40.299 --> 00:18:43.200 our platoon was tasked with doing the quick response 00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:46.259 force for that and so we were out there very 00:18:46.259 --> 00:18:49.799 shortly after it happened and where I dismounted 00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:53.210 from um on my vehicle I had to walk through a 00:18:53.210 --> 00:18:56.349 it was like a small I don't know quarter acres 00:18:56.349 --> 00:19:00.609 or smaller lot of sunflowers um that were about 00:19:00.609 --> 00:19:03.710 knee high a little maybe mid -thigh high and 00:19:03.710 --> 00:19:06.789 um I walked through it and I remember just looking 00:19:06.789 --> 00:19:08.609 down at them as I'm walking trying to make sure 00:19:08.609 --> 00:19:10.809 there's not another IED or anything else that 00:19:10.809 --> 00:19:13.890 might be in there uh as I'm looking down I start 00:19:13.890 --> 00:19:17.210 noticing there's debris and then um blood splatter 00:19:17.210 --> 00:19:21.170 on the petals of these flowers and um in knowing 00:19:21.170 --> 00:19:23.289 that, you know, the smells and everything else 00:19:23.289 --> 00:19:26.349 that were there of the five guys that had died, 00:19:26.549 --> 00:19:30.450 um, just forever ruined the sunflowers for me. 00:19:30.470 --> 00:19:34.630 You know, I can't, um, I can't look at a sunflower 00:19:34.630 --> 00:19:37.190 and see anything beautiful. It's just like, I 00:19:37.190 --> 00:19:40.369 see that, you know, and again, that's one of 00:19:40.369 --> 00:19:43.250 those lessons for our family members, because 00:19:43.250 --> 00:19:45.960 unless you express that, nobody would know why 00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:47.880 that's a trigger, right? They would think, well, 00:19:47.980 --> 00:19:51.099 look, I'm a bunch of your wife or you walk through 00:19:51.099 --> 00:19:53.400 a beautiful flower shop and a bunch of sunflowers. 00:19:53.579 --> 00:19:56.799 We have to express that, hey, this triggers this 00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:00.519 memory for me so that our friends and families 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:06.619 know that and can work with that. But keep going 00:20:06.619 --> 00:20:09.099 back to family because during the middle of this, 00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:11.359 you sort of got to a point where you're accepting 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:15.490 death. and decide to end your relationship with 00:20:15.490 --> 00:20:21.309 your fiance? Yep. I called off the marriage in 00:20:21.309 --> 00:20:22.829 the middle of it being planned because we were 00:20:22.829 --> 00:20:24.349 planning on getting married right when I returned 00:20:24.349 --> 00:20:32.329 from Iraq. I was numb to everything. This is 00:20:32.329 --> 00:20:35.470 after my friends had died. It was July 17th or 00:20:35.470 --> 00:20:38.750 12th or something like that. I have a little 00:20:38.750 --> 00:20:41.049 black book that would be I've often thought it 00:20:41.049 --> 00:20:45.609 would be cool to publish or do it like some kind 00:20:45.609 --> 00:20:49.630 of a company document to the book because it's 00:20:49.630 --> 00:20:51.190 it's notes I took, but I stopped writing it at 00:20:51.190 --> 00:20:53.410 that point. I said, no, screw it. Why am I trying 00:20:53.410 --> 00:20:55.309 to even remember this? I will never forget it. 00:20:55.349 --> 00:20:58.049 Why am I writing notes? And at that point, I 00:20:58.049 --> 00:20:59.690 said, I'm not going to make it home. I'll call 00:20:59.690 --> 00:21:01.970 off the wedding. And so I went into the phone 00:21:01.970 --> 00:21:05.769 trailer and called my wife like an hour before 00:21:05.769 --> 00:21:07.650 we were leaving for the government center, which 00:21:07.650 --> 00:21:11.720 is a four day post that we'd stand and I didn't 00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:14.519 have a chance to call or she wouldn't have a 00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:17.559 chance to communicate with me during that time 00:21:17.559 --> 00:21:21.220 so I kind of set myself up for failure by doing 00:21:21.220 --> 00:21:24.559 it right before we left and then my friends you 00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:27.180 know on post and at the government center convinced 00:21:27.180 --> 00:21:29.619 me that I was being an idiot and that I was going 00:21:29.619 --> 00:21:33.829 to make it back um and so the the day I got back 00:21:33.829 --> 00:21:35.849 I called and said I'm sorry you know and then 00:21:35.849 --> 00:21:38.950 of course it wasn't just an easy oh that's okay 00:21:38.950 --> 00:21:43.250 you know but I think that was her first instance 00:21:43.250 --> 00:21:45.670 of seeing that there were a lot of changes in 00:21:45.670 --> 00:21:49.930 me happening you know you actually got to the 00:21:49.930 --> 00:21:52.609 point where you write that at one point you felt 00:21:52.609 --> 00:21:58.089 you didn't deserve to come home yeah yeah like 00:21:58.089 --> 00:22:02.150 seeing the quality of of men that were surrounding 00:22:02.150 --> 00:22:05.849 me dying in the way I upheld their, you know, 00:22:05.990 --> 00:22:10.190 them in my mind. And, you know, it was like, 00:22:10.289 --> 00:22:12.410 well, why, why does this three time combat veteran 00:22:12.410 --> 00:22:16.269 have to go die? It should be me, right? You know, 00:22:16.509 --> 00:22:18.430 why this, this person survived way more combat 00:22:18.430 --> 00:22:21.869 than me. You know, I don't, I shouldn't be here. 00:22:21.930 --> 00:22:24.650 I'm not as good of a Marine as them. And again, 00:22:24.650 --> 00:22:26.490 I think that's the sort of thing a lot of people 00:22:26.490 --> 00:22:30.660 think about. Why I like the book so much as it 00:22:30.660 --> 00:22:34.440 expresses this and and makes us face it head 00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:39.319 -on But you do come out of Iraq you get home 00:22:39.319 --> 00:22:41.900 you come you get married in 2019. I believe it 00:22:41.900 --> 00:22:49.640 is 2005 2005 yeah October of 05 and and now it's 00:22:49.640 --> 00:22:51.980 You're getting close to the tour being up to 00:22:51.980 --> 00:22:54.579 you reenlist. What do you do? What do you do? 00:22:57.099 --> 00:22:59.180 Have you proven everything you wanted to prove 00:22:59.180 --> 00:23:01.640 to yourself a lot a lot of stuff going on in 00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:04.180 your head, isn't there? Yep. Yeah, and I had 00:23:04.180 --> 00:23:06.799 actually So my second deployment after I got 00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:10.460 back was to the 31st Mew where we did on like 00:23:10.460 --> 00:23:13.920 a Southeast Asia Float basically and we went 00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:16.839 to Okinawa China in the Philippines and so there's 00:23:16.839 --> 00:23:19.740 no combat in that one and after I came off that 00:23:20.740 --> 00:23:23.880 They said, hey, we're starting up this new organization 00:23:23.880 --> 00:23:25.660 or this new one had just been started up called 00:23:25.660 --> 00:23:28.859 MARSOC, Marine Special Operations Command. And 00:23:28.859 --> 00:23:32.940 they were looking for infantry, combat infantry 00:23:32.940 --> 00:23:36.619 volunteers at the time from one five as they 00:23:36.619 --> 00:23:38.200 were already like pulling guys from recon and 00:23:38.200 --> 00:23:40.960 they had stood down force recon to make MARSOC. 00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:42.859 So a lot of those guys just kind of went right 00:23:42.859 --> 00:23:45.500 to there. And so I talked with a couple of my 00:23:45.500 --> 00:23:47.220 friends and said, Hey, do you want to extend 00:23:47.220 --> 00:23:51.049 our time? to go do MARSOC and it sounded like 00:23:51.049 --> 00:23:54.490 a cool thing to attempt to do. And so I talked 00:23:54.490 --> 00:23:56.109 to my wife and said, hey, what are your thoughts 00:23:56.109 --> 00:23:59.289 if I, instead of getting out, which I was supposed 00:23:59.289 --> 00:24:01.589 to do, what if I extend my time and go to Marine 00:24:01.589 --> 00:24:05.589 Special Operations? And we talked about it and 00:24:05.589 --> 00:24:07.329 she understood that I felt like I needed to do 00:24:07.329 --> 00:24:09.809 that. And especially because I assumed that most 00:24:09.809 --> 00:24:11.890 likely we'd be going to combat and I had combat 00:24:11.890 --> 00:24:14.450 experience that I felt would be wasteful just 00:24:14.450 --> 00:24:16.970 to get out of the Marine Corps with. Um, you 00:24:16.970 --> 00:24:19.130 know, and, and now having been a, I was a corporal 00:24:19.130 --> 00:24:21.750 at the time, a senior corporal, I just felt it 00:24:21.750 --> 00:24:25.250 was my duty to, to pass some of that on to younger 00:24:25.250 --> 00:24:29.009 guys. So, um, or people, maybe that, that hadn't 00:24:29.009 --> 00:24:33.049 been the combat. And so we extended and I went 00:24:33.049 --> 00:24:37.029 through the Marsoc, um, all that training and 00:24:37.029 --> 00:24:39.009 ended up having to send my wife home during that, 00:24:39.150 --> 00:24:40.869 because we just never saw each other. It was 00:24:40.869 --> 00:24:44.980 so busy training and, um, And then that led us 00:24:44.980 --> 00:24:48.980 to go into Afghanistan. And how long was that 00:24:48.980 --> 00:24:54.960 tour? That was December through April. And before 00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:57.019 that, we went to actually the Philippines for 00:24:57.019 --> 00:25:00.220 a month and lived there. And we were doing foreign 00:25:00.220 --> 00:25:03.400 internal defense training. So we cross -trained 00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:07.160 their Philippine drug enforcement agents and 00:25:07.160 --> 00:25:11.400 some of their special forces. It was NBI, the 00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:14.119 National Bureau of Investigation for the Philippines. 00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:16.920 So we did a month -long training program for 00:25:16.920 --> 00:25:20.220 them where I was the chief instructor there. 00:25:20.519 --> 00:25:23.099 And that was an awesome experience too. It was 00:25:23.099 --> 00:25:27.460 76 students. The book talks a lot about coming 00:25:27.460 --> 00:25:31.359 home too. And again, it's candid. It's what you 00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:34.200 want to understand what's going on in a guy's 00:25:34.200 --> 00:25:36.619 head and help get a look at what other vets may 00:25:36.619 --> 00:25:43.680 be doing. You write, I lost track of my soul 00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:47.140 and when I accepted my death, I became the enemy. 00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:49.700 I turned into a terrorist in a foreign land and 00:25:49.700 --> 00:25:54.440 displayed little mercy toward my opponents. All 00:25:54.440 --> 00:25:56.500 that's rolling around in your head as you get 00:25:56.500 --> 00:26:01.160 out and you describe it, you write, one word 00:26:01.160 --> 00:26:03.660 sums up my experience of leaving the active duty 00:26:03.660 --> 00:26:10.700 military and returning home, loneliness. That's 00:26:10.700 --> 00:26:13.720 a lot to carry. And it's a lot to carry by yourself. 00:26:15.660 --> 00:26:19.900 How did you go through that phase? I drank a 00:26:19.900 --> 00:26:25.160 lot and isolated myself. So I told you this book 00:26:25.160 --> 00:26:28.920 is candid and Josh Shores is nothing but candid. 00:26:29.859 --> 00:26:32.259 Again, a lot of guys do that. How do you keep 00:26:32.259 --> 00:26:36.380 going through that and not ending up on the slab? 00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:42.720 Yeah, I just... I think, honestly, there was 00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:46.279 something that happened along the way there. 00:26:46.279 --> 00:26:49.799 My brother -in -law died in a car accident right 00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:51.900 after I got out, like three months after I got 00:26:51.900 --> 00:26:54.359 out of the Marine Corps. And so my wife and I 00:26:54.359 --> 00:26:57.880 had a lot of optimism in what life was going 00:26:57.880 --> 00:26:59.980 to be while I'm still going through stuff. And 00:26:59.980 --> 00:27:02.960 so when my brother -in -law died, it was like, 00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:06.640 well, now that my rock, my wife has been patient 00:27:06.640 --> 00:27:10.069 with me and supportive, is falling apart. It's 00:27:10.069 --> 00:27:13.250 like, do I be, it's like, you know, you have 00:27:13.250 --> 00:27:15.589 to make a decision. And my decision is I want 00:27:15.589 --> 00:27:18.650 this family to work. And so, you know, I just 00:27:18.650 --> 00:27:21.230 kind of put walls up and, and then it was like, 00:27:21.329 --> 00:27:23.549 how can I be supportive of my wife? You know, 00:27:23.569 --> 00:27:25.230 that's the most important thing at this point. 00:27:25.509 --> 00:27:28.710 And so it kind of had to put a lot of stuff aside. 00:27:28.829 --> 00:27:30.829 And at that point I said, well, I can't, I'm 00:27:30.829 --> 00:27:34.930 having trouble doing this. You know, I need help. 00:27:34.950 --> 00:27:36.650 And so I went to the VA and just said, I need 00:27:36.650 --> 00:27:41.099 help. And they started me in a program there. 00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:45.519 So at the end of the day, the program, it was 00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:47.880 supposed to be just me in a meeting. And I said, 00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:51.319 because of the situation with my wife and I and 00:27:51.319 --> 00:27:55.119 her brother passing away, I said, I can't do 00:27:55.119 --> 00:27:57.559 this alone. I can't do all this talking at these 00:27:57.559 --> 00:28:00.079 sessions and then come home and feel the way 00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:02.799 I do without my wife understanding what's going 00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:04.299 on. She doesn't have the patience for it. It's 00:28:04.299 --> 00:28:06.299 not fair to her. and so I asked if she could 00:28:06.299 --> 00:28:08.180 come in on the sessions and they said well we 00:28:08.180 --> 00:28:10.779 can't do couples therapy and I said so you'd 00:28:10.779 --> 00:28:12.859 rather just me kill myself or do something else 00:28:12.859 --> 00:28:15.200 than then have my wife sit in with me is that 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:16.940 is that where we're at with this it's ridiculous 00:28:16.940 --> 00:28:19.099 and they said well let's we'll just have her 00:28:19.099 --> 00:28:21.880 sit in and it ended up being something that was 00:28:21.880 --> 00:28:24.680 kind of a couples therapy and it saved myself 00:28:24.680 --> 00:28:28.240 and my marriage and um and it was a lot better 00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:31.680 for my wife to be sitting in and hearing me talk 00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:34.799 about the things that were weighing on me versus 00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:37.839 me going to the session and then driving the 00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:40.119 45 minutes back home and not wanting to talk 00:28:40.119 --> 00:28:43.480 about anything. So you call out in the book through 00:28:43.480 --> 00:28:46.539 our almost year -long weekly sessions, Dr. Laura 00:28:46.539 --> 00:28:48.839 gave both of us the tools to make it through 00:28:48.839 --> 00:28:52.640 relationship and personal issues. And I want 00:28:52.640 --> 00:28:55.339 to highlight because a lot of folks, a lot of 00:28:55.339 --> 00:28:57.000 guys think, well, I'm not going to the VA. They 00:28:57.000 --> 00:28:59.740 don't care, blah, blah, blah. But you call out 00:28:59.740 --> 00:29:03.960 that the mental health therapy that sessions 00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:08.740 you got from the VA made the difference. It's 00:29:08.740 --> 00:29:13.519 work, you write somewhere, it's hard work. But 00:29:13.519 --> 00:29:15.740 don't cut off that avenue just because you think 00:29:15.740 --> 00:29:17.740 those people don't care. They care, don't they? 00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:19.920 Yeah, then they do. And that's the thing is, 00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:23.039 from what my experience has been with the VA 00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:27.599 system, at least, is they're not going to reach 00:29:27.599 --> 00:29:29.619 out to every vet and say, how are you doing? 00:29:29.720 --> 00:29:32.279 They're just not, it's impossible. And it's a 00:29:32.279 --> 00:29:36.640 governmental run program that supports veterans, 00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:39.380 but you as a veteran have to look at yourself 00:29:39.380 --> 00:29:41.920 and say, I need this help, or it's time now, 00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:43.579 or take the cues from your family. And that was 00:29:43.579 --> 00:29:45.039 another thing that like there were cues from 00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:46.500 my family members of like, do you need help? 00:29:46.579 --> 00:29:48.119 Maybe you should stop drinking as much. And, 00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:51.900 you know, and so like, you have to be aware enough 00:29:51.900 --> 00:29:55.799 and willing enough to help yourself by reaching 00:29:55.799 --> 00:29:57.500 out and being persistent. You have to be your 00:29:57.500 --> 00:30:00.279 own advocate. If they're not doing a good enough 00:30:00.279 --> 00:30:02.319 job, you need to be the squeaky wheel that gets 00:30:02.319 --> 00:30:05.859 the grease. And, and yeah, you know, I had to 00:30:05.859 --> 00:30:09.200 go do some of those things and it was tough at 00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:11.740 first, but once I got the care, it wasn't shitty 00:30:11.740 --> 00:30:13.680 care. And I think that's what I hear from a lot 00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:18.220 of vets is like, they don't care. In my experience, 00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:22.079 after I started the program and now even still, 00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:25.400 like I still see a therapist at least quarterly, 00:30:25.799 --> 00:30:30.220 if not more when I'm struggling and And that's 00:30:30.220 --> 00:30:31.940 done through the community care from the VA. 00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:35.160 And I had to be an advocate to get there. And 00:30:35.160 --> 00:30:37.819 I had to say to myself that I need it. You have 00:30:37.819 --> 00:30:40.059 to be able to say that. And that's a big step. 00:30:40.059 --> 00:30:43.279 And it takes a lot because it's not weak, but 00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:45.279 you don't want to come off as weak. And I think 00:30:45.279 --> 00:30:48.119 that's what a lot of us struggle with. You also 00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:50.480 went out and got some more education. You picked 00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:54.339 up a business degree, which gave you some direction. 00:30:54.440 --> 00:30:56.660 And we'll do a full circle here, come back around. 00:30:56.960 --> 00:30:59.500 As you said, at the outset in high school, you 00:30:59.500 --> 00:31:01.240 worked with your dad. He was an entrepreneur, 00:31:01.259 --> 00:31:03.779 a number of different businesses, but just sort 00:31:03.779 --> 00:31:06.119 of needed that education and experience. And 00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:09.940 now you're back in that world of being an entrepreneur. 00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:12.839 Talk to us a little bit about, you know, we've 00:31:12.839 --> 00:31:14.400 gone through the bad stuff. Let's talk about 00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:18.539 a little good stuff. I think the people have 00:31:18.539 --> 00:31:20.940 asked me often, like, would you redo it all again? 00:31:21.059 --> 00:31:24.539 Would you want the same life? And I wouldn't 00:31:24.539 --> 00:31:33.329 be as open to life, I think, had I not been so 00:31:33.329 --> 00:31:38.089 close to death and accepted it really and seen 00:31:38.089 --> 00:31:43.549 what that really looks like. And so I really, 00:31:43.890 --> 00:31:45.750 you know, the thing the Marine Corps had done 00:31:45.750 --> 00:31:47.670 for me is show me that you can get through anything 00:31:47.670 --> 00:31:50.230 and there's no obstacle, you know, it doesn't. 00:31:50.269 --> 00:31:52.289 even if you don't have the right tools, you'll 00:31:52.289 --> 00:31:54.609 make the right tools, you'll find the right tools, 00:31:54.609 --> 00:31:56.710 and you'll make it happen. And so that mindset 00:31:56.710 --> 00:31:59.410 has carried me through my life as an entrepreneur 00:31:59.410 --> 00:32:02.269 and some of the businesses I've started have 00:32:02.269 --> 00:32:05.650 not done very well. Some of them have been okay, 00:32:06.490 --> 00:32:09.490 but it's just like I have this drive in me to 00:32:09.490 --> 00:32:12.829 keep doing. And I think that is both from my 00:32:12.829 --> 00:32:15.569 father, but also the Marine Corps instilling 00:32:15.569 --> 00:32:19.170 and showing me my own limits. and showing me 00:32:19.170 --> 00:32:22.410 how I can overcome those. So it's directly translated 00:32:22.410 --> 00:32:29.849 and yeah. It's made you who you are today. And 00:32:29.849 --> 00:32:32.130 Josh Shores, we really appreciate the time that 00:32:32.130 --> 00:32:34.670 you spent with Veterans Radio today. The book 00:32:34.670 --> 00:32:39.490 is Counting on Death. It's on the Casemate imprint. 00:32:40.750 --> 00:32:43.309 Where can folks find this if they want a candid 00:32:43.309 --> 00:32:48.109 look at? what it's all about when you're a Marine 00:32:48.109 --> 00:32:51.390 Infantryman in combat. Yes, you can buy it on 00:32:51.390 --> 00:32:54.670 Amazon. Like you said, Chasemate's site directly. 00:32:54.769 --> 00:32:59.829 They have it on Audible and Barnes and Noble. 00:33:00.069 --> 00:33:01.769 I think where books are sold, books a million. 00:33:02.410 --> 00:33:05.730 Well, we wish you and your family, I can't believe 00:33:05.730 --> 00:33:09.230 she kept putting up with you. Me either. I lost 00:33:09.230 --> 00:33:11.130 count of how many times you tried to get rid 00:33:11.130 --> 00:33:14.960 of her, but she's too good for that. We appreciate 00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:17.460 your time and wish you nothing but the best. 00:33:18.279 --> 00:33:20.700 Thank you. I really appreciate it, Jim. And I 00:33:20.700 --> 00:33:22.579 want to thank everybody for listening to Veterans 00:33:22.579 --> 00:33:26.400 Radio today. I am Jim Fossone. It's been a pleasure 00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:28.980 to be your host. I'm a Veterans disability lawyer 00:33:28.980 --> 00:33:31.799 at Legal Help for Veterans and you can reach 00:33:31.799 --> 00:33:37.759 us at 800 -693 -4800 or legalhelpforveterans 00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:40.980 .com on the web. You can follow Veterans Radio 00:33:40.980 --> 00:33:44.259 on Facebook and listen to its podcasts and internet 00:33:44.259 --> 00:33:48.880 radio shows by visiting us at veteransradio .org. 00:33:49.019 --> 00:33:52.380 That's veteransradio .org. We would again want 00:33:52.380 --> 00:33:55.380 to thank our national sponsors, the National 00:33:55.380 --> 00:33:59.319 Veterans Business Development Council, nvbdc 00:33:59.319 --> 00:34:04.400 .org. Legal Help for Veterans, a veterans disability 00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:08.460 law firm with a national practice before The 00:34:08.460 --> 00:34:12.099 VA can help you on your claims and your appeals. 00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:16.400 It can be reached at LegalHelpForVeterans .com 00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:23.840 or 1 -800 -693 -4800. And PuroClean, a leader 00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:28.039 in property emergency services. It's the paramedics 00:34:28.039 --> 00:34:31.820 of property damage, providing water damage remediation, 00:34:32.099 --> 00:34:35.380 flood water removal, fire and smoke damage remediation. 00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:39.900 mold and biohazard cleanups, you can reach them 00:34:39.900 --> 00:34:47.599 at puroclean .com or 800 -775 -7876. We also 00:34:47.599 --> 00:34:50.559 want to thank our local sponsors. This would 00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:56.360 include the Charles S. Kettles chapter of the 00:34:56.360 --> 00:34:59.619 Vietnam Veterans of America, that's chapter 310, 00:34:59.940 --> 00:35:04.719 VFW Graf O 'Hara Post 423, the American Legion. 00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:08.059 Erwin Preskin, Post 46 in Ann Arbor as well, 00:35:08.579 --> 00:35:11.599 the VA Ann Arbor Health Care System, and certainly 00:35:11.599 --> 00:35:14.719 the National Vietnam Veterans of America Association. 00:35:15.380 --> 00:35:18.019 You can be a sponsor by going to veteransradio 00:35:18.019 --> 00:35:22.420 .org, clicking on the About Us and our sponsors, 00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:25.699 and help us out. Keep this program alive for 00:35:25.699 --> 00:35:30.260 the 21 and 22 years. Keep us going for another 00:35:30.260 --> 00:35:31.380 20. Thank you.