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So listen in wherever you're at to veteransradio
.org and its podcasts. We want to welcome to
Veterans Radio today Kathleen Utley -Cornierens
probably got that wrong help me with that was
perfect okay Kathleen is a US Air Force veteran
she went to the Air Force Academy back in the
day which is what we're going to talk about a
little history and a little kind of what's going
on now but Kathleen welcome to Veterans Radio
Well, thanks, Jim. It's very exciting to be here.
Well, you know, you had, whether you knew it
or not, you were in a historic class at the Air
Force Academy. Tell us a little bit about your
deciding to go to the Air Force Academy, because
you have a book out called Bring Me Men, Brought
Me Women, Marching with the First Female Cadets
of the U .S. Air Force Academy. Now, we've just
given away part of the story by reading the title,
but go ahead and tell us about it. Well, there
was no way I could have planned to go to the
Academy when I was a little girl or in high school.
I was raised in a military family. My father
was US Army, World War II in Korea. My mother
also served in the Navy. She's still with us
at 105. I think she might be maybe the oldest
U .S. Navy female veteran out there. Wow. I don't
know, but she was a storekeeper and but I never
saw my parent. I never saw my mom in uniform
and my dad retired when I was eight. So I didn't
really have the typical army brat. young childhood,
but the idea of military and service and discipline
was all part of my upbringing. And that actually
had caused you to live overseas and learn another
language a little bit in those early years, it
seems. That was after, when my dad retired, we
were living in Miami, and with the influx of
Cubans into the area, he thought that we should
learn how to speak a second language. So he took
us, lock, stock and barrel, to live in Costa
Rica, put us in the local schools and said, sink
or swim, goodbye, good luck. Within two years,
we were fluent in Spanish and then returned to
the U .S. in my junior year in high school to
figure out what was going to be next. You went
to a small town in Florida. I want to give some
color to the background here because this leap
into the Air Force Academy at that point in time
in the mid 70s is really an unusual leap. So
give us a little more background here of the
girl you were. Well, the girl I was was very
much molded because of that experience of going
to a foreign country, living in a different environment,
being an unusual Person and coming back and realizing
that the world is big the opportunities are big
and i was in a small town. And wasn't exactly
sure how do i continue that kind of life when.
my science instructor, my science teacher in
high school, stopped me in the hall one day and
said, oh, Kathy, the Air Force Academy is opening
up to women. So, you know, your reaction was
probably so what, you know, I didn't even know
what that meant, but it planted the seed and
another. Classmate was applying. His father was
Air Force. He wanted to go to the Academy, so
we just followed the procedure together towards
an application and final acceptance. He unfortunately
did not get in. And the procedure to go to the
academy is not exactly like any other college.
There's physical fitness testing. There's lots
of procedures that you go through with your senator
or congressperson to get a nomination. Because
my father was retired military, I got my nomination
through the presidential channels. But still,
It's pretty involved and this this was to be
the first class of women That were admitted to
the Air Force Academy, is that right? That is
correct in October of 1975 President Gerald Ford
signed an Appropriations Act that had within
it the One paragraph that mentioned allowing
women to enter all the U .S. military service
academies. So that was in October and by December
there was a full -blown publicity run that every
high school received a pamphlet. The superintendent
of the academy was all around the country on
television and making speeches trying to populate
that first class with women, and I was there
in the hall at high school at the right time.
I heard the right words. This is a really exclusive
club because in, what is it, 1976, there were
something like 1 ,700 women applied, but only
157 spaces. Is that about right? That is correct.
Yes, that is correct. And that's the class that
graduated in 1980 and became the class that had
its first set of female cadets who survived these
tough four years. Tell us a little bit about
those tough four years. Well, they were extraordinarily
tough. The interesting part about it was we came
together, 1 ,500 of us, Men and women so a hundred
and fifty seven women and the fourteen hundred
and whatever thirty six men in our class so we
were the first co -ed class, but We the men in
our class never knew anything different. They
came with us. They were a part of a co -ed class
The classes ahead of us were not as welcoming
so From the very beginning it was a lot of harassment
a lot of yelling But some of that was was not
was gender neutral Everyone got yelled at every
it was basic training and that's how it went
the interesting thing about the Air Force Academy
is they started planning in 1972 When the Equal
Rights Amendment came out they started planning
to have women within the Academy if Congress
mandated. So when Ford signed the legislation
in October, they went full on with the plans.
They printed the whole plans and programs on
that same day, October 7th. And it was the first
time one of their plans and programs was printed
with a pink cover. They ordered special pink
paper. And part of this is, again, it's a little
It may be difficult to think back 50 years for
some of our veteran radio listeners, but we're
talking about the plans had to include accommodations,
dormitory rooms, showers, bathrooms. The whole
physical setup had to be rethought a little bit
as 10 % of the class, if you will, roughly were
women in that opening class. The the Academy
budgeted a hundred thousand dollars to make all
of the accommodations for the women which included
converting some of the locker rooms down in the
in the gymnasium in the field house which included
converting latrines so they were You know, they
ripped the urinals off the wall It included a
separate area which wasn't built separately,
but it was Fire doors were put into privacy doors
to separate the women. And the original plan
was for 150 to 157 women all housed in this separate
area of the dorms. And all of that done in eight
months. So there was a lot going on. Uniforms
procured. Some of the stories are pretty funny
because when we arrived, they only had socks
in small sizes. So the women that had bigger
feet socks didn't fit. They didn't have any undergarments
for the women and they had a young airman waiting
at JCPenney's by the telephone and he got a call
with measurements and he had to run by bras or
underwear for each of the women as we came through.
Even today we find that the military is still
adjusting its uniforms to accommodate women.
in the service. So it's been a long road to get
to the right spot here. One of the things you
mentioned were the locker rooms. And I want to
bring this up because I'm sure there was no change
in the academic programs because women were put
into the academy. But athletics and physical
training is such an important part of every academy.
They want their students to be involved in extracurricular
activities. Tell us a little bit about that aspect
of the first four years of having women in the
United States Air Force Academy. Well, as much
as possible, at least at the Air Force Academy,
they tried to include the women co -ed teams.
I played team handball co -ed. I played water
polo co -ed as a squadron intramural. They also
had a regular intercollegiate teams that were
started right away first year with the women
who had. That kind of background in high school
like they were track they ran track in high school
then they ran track for the academy there were
a few things we didn't do wrestling there were
a few accommodations and they were very the academy
tried very hard not to change. too many of the
accommodations. Now we had physical fitness tests
every year and the standards for the men and
the women were a little different because of
physiological differences. But we all went to
intramurals or intercollegiate sports. We all
took PE, different sports and participated. We
all did the morning runs, all of us together,
you know, full fatigues, combat boots and rifles.
So they tried to keep it as as even as possible.
Well, we're talking to United States Air Force
veteran and Academy grad Kathleen Bernerns. And
the start of the book is Bring Me Men. And it's
not until I did a little research that I understood
what that was about. Now, every Academy grad
would, but tell us where that phrase comes from
at the Academy. So when we arrived and so when
all cadets arrived at the Academy up until our
year or up until the year 2003, you arrive at
the bottom of a giant ramp that leads from a
parking area and a giant concrete canyon almost
up a ramp that leads to the cadet area which
is a giant square with dorms on two sides the
chapel and then the academic buildings and above
that ramp in giant silver letters were the words
bring me men and that again took the academy
until i think you said it was like two thousand
and three maybe 2003 correct to remove that that
that phrase comes from a 1894 poem apparently
by Sam Walter Foss extolling the expansionist
spirit of the country and the first two lines
read the of the coming America poem reads bring
me men to match my mountains bring me men to
match my planes and that's where that comes from
But it had to feel a little out of date out of
sorts when when you in the subsequent classes
started arriving, didn't it? Well in my daughter
it's funny because my daughter asked me that
and I said we didn't have time to look at it
For the first couple years, you know, it was
keeping your eyes caged looking straight ahead
March look at the back of the airmen in front
of you But after a while and knowing the history
of the words that it came from a poem and in
my own mind thinking, okay, this is men in the
in the world's least sense, not in the gender
sense. I was okay with it. I mean, I marched
up the bring me men ramp on day one and I marched
down when we graduated. However, as time went
on, nobody is. Nobody can say for sure what how
other people interpreted it and the fact that
others were potentially interpreting it with
Mal intent or some kind of prejudice that women
didn't belong and because of the sexual assault
scandals at the Academy the Between Congress
and Academy administration they decided to take
the words down Well, it certainly was a bad look
in the 2000s, so it was more than time to go.
And I should point out from a little bit of additional
research that probably over 15 ,000 women have
now graduated from the different military academies,
Air Force, West Point, Naval, Coast Guard, Merchant
Marines. And the Merchant Marines actually, Academy
actually had women in the class in 1974, so a
little bit earlier before President Ford signed
his bill into law. And it's sort of interesting
how many people have now gone through there.
We certainly have a number of friends, women
who have graduated from the Air Force Academy,
actually just saw one last week at a football
game. And there's a If you survive, I think this
is true of any academy, if you survive that academy,
that's an experience that binds you to all of
those other 15 ,000 women. Do you feel that?
I feel it more than ever, and I feel it especially
this year, because this year is the 50th year
since President Ford signed that bill and my
talk at the Ford Library was going to be honoring
that anniversary. And there have been 50 celebrations
across the U .S. with women from all of the service
academies to celebrate that sisterhood, that
long line of women who have graduated. In fact,
on the 7th of October, a group of women rang
the bell, the closing bell at the New York Stock
Exchange. Again, it's a very small club when
you think about it, really. And you served from
1980 to 1985 and afterwards, I believe, picked
up an MBA from Rensselaer Polytech Institute,
RPI, and went on to a long career in education
with some of the toughest assignments I can think
of. You actually taught middle school kids, oh
my goodness. I worked with middle schoolers,
I did, I did. And my academy training came in
handy. Probably handy in combat and how to take
abuse, verbal abuse for kids. But let's not gloss
over the fact that there were rough spots during
these initial four years. You've mentioned the
harassment, it sounds like maybe particularly
from class. uh, mates who were not in the original
class, who had, had gone through just with men
in the class the three years prior. And unfortunately
we have, uh, we, we continue to hear stories
out of the Academy of, of sexual harassment and
mistreatment. Talk a little bit about your experiences,
but your views today, looking back on what the
Academy maybe could do better or different in
this regards. Let me say this in terms of why
the experiment of our class was a success one
because there was There was positive leadership
that were were promoting the idea of this being
a good thing There was not at the Air Force Academy.
There was planning and preparation As I told
you before, we were billeted in a separate area.
That turned out to be not a good idea. And the
administration of the academy, the superintendent,
the dean, and the commandant had the leadership
foresight to pivot. They weren't so embedded
in their decision. They didn't... they couldn't
change it. So in the middle of the year, instead
of having us just in 20 squad, half of the Academy
and in a separate area, they moved us to all
of the Academy. So by the time the second year,
the second group year women came through, the
whole Academy was integrated. So that was a wonderful
success. There was success because our classmates
helped us, because it was men and women working
together. Like I said before, they didn't know
any other academy. It was a co -ed school with
our class, and they were incredibly supportive.
So many of those things went right. There were
decisions that were made that were defined by
small items that became large, for example, uniforms.
We weren't allowed to march in skirts. But because
we had to go to class in skirts and March immediately
after everybody had all the women had to run
and change and come back and that decision was
made based on something visual and not actually
that the the functional needs of The Airmen are
the cadet that was at the Academy. So those kind
of things were lessons learned The Academy now
has close to 30 % women. Women graduated, go
ahead, I'm sorry. No, no, you triggered some
more research that I did, which is the graduating
class of this year was 31 % women, 69 % men,
23 % of the overall class were minority, 45 %
of the class had undergraduate pilot training.
And this is a scary factoid from the website.
The high school GPA to get into the academy was
3 .88. Let's call it 3 .9. I don't know about
you, but I didn't have a 3 .9 in high school.
These are smart men and women is my point. They
are. They are they are smart and they're also
aware and I think that's a good thing is because
of what's available on the academy websites what
what students know from their liaison officers
when they're in high school what the academy
does in outreach to to to bring information to.
Young students that are thinking about going
to the academy what they can see on youtube about
what to expect there a little bit. they're a
lot more prepared than we were. I was totally
blind. I had no idea. So the small town, they're
better off than the small town girl from Florida
who spoke Spanish. Well, and some of the men
in our class. Let's try. Let's just try this.
I want to do something different. No idea how
different that was. You mentioned liaison officers,
and I want you to talk about this because anybody
who's maybe got a son or a daughter thinking
about an academy there nowadays there's a whole
you really have to work at getting yourself in
line to get an appointment congressional or otherwise
but there's this little secret club called liaison
officers and i think most people don't know about
till too late tell us what a liaison officer
is So the liaison officers are the representatives
of the Air Force Academy that have a certain
territory. Our son is a 16 grad from the Air
Force Academy. So when he was in high school
and he wanted to talk about going to the Academy,
instead of hearing mom and dad's war stories,
we called the local liaison officer to come over
and talk to him and give him the current Story
the current scoop on what the academy was expecting
what he should do at what time because there
are a lot of gates to to prepare for your app
for your your appointment and your and your nomination
and your acceptance and so the liaison officers
that guide that guy that gets you through each
step and yes high school guidance counselors
know. Stuff and the Academy admissions office
certainly knows but that local liaison officer
is is an Air Force officer sometimes a reservist
but Available to those high school students to
help them guide them through the process It's
really a fantastic resource that again many kids
don't know about till too late Because you really
have to start this process not in your senior
year ideally in your sophomore year when you
can start lining up and checking all the boxes
and taking all the courses and doing all the
extra work but you need somebody to guide you
or point you in a direction and that's one of
the things that liaison officers do that again
most people don't know about. When you were writing
this and this is a monumental task to write this
history from 50 years ago talk a little bit about
you know what were you thinking when you took
on this project and what surprised you out of
it? My initial attempt at writing down the story
was because I wanted to tell my children. So
I have two daughters and a son, and I wanted
to tell them the story of our class, of my journey
through the academy. Their father is a classmate,
so all of that was the attempt at writing. But
as I started writing down my story, my letters
to my parents, my parents' letters to me, other
classmates came to me and started telling me
their stories. And the journey was similar, but
the stories were disparate. And everyone had
a little bit of a different experience, whether
it was primarily in the athletics. sword in the
athletics or they struggled in the academics
or vice versa. Time management, you know, didn't
understand military rank and it took me forever
to identify the pictures of the airplanes when
they held them up. So all those things came together
and it made a very unique mosaic of a story.
So that's when I started to put it all together.
And what surprised you then as you wrote this.
It surprised me how emotional the writing was.
I used to go to the library every single day.
and just sit down for three hours and see what
came to me. And the librarian would just bring
over a box of tissues because sometimes the stories
were hilarious and funny. And sometimes they
were so emotional to remember how hard it was
or how demanding or how weak I might have felt
or someone else's pain that they had told me.
It was hard. One of the things that comes across
when you read it is that resilience or that desire
to get through. Tomorrow will be better than
today kind of thing. And I think we all, that's
a lesson to be learned by everyone in life. There
are going to be those days where you just want
to give up, don't you? You do. And I lost a couple
of roommates who decided it wasn't for them.
And that was hard because you felt like this
security blanket in your roommate was pulled
away from you. But it was just a matter of managing
not even the day but managing the next Item on
the agenda whether it was a drill practice or
an inspection or an exam or You just you had
to take it just in little tiny steps And that's
one of the things the Academy and the military
teaches you how to manage projects how to manage
life how to manage training in in whatever the
time management and energy management and emotional
management of the moment Well, that's that's
why those middle schoolers were so easy for you
to work with because you'd really figure it out
Okay, I just gotta get through the moment. So
I mean, that's it. That's an important feature
now again The the the book is titled bring me
men brought women Marching with the first female
cadets of the United States Air Force Academy.
It's out in paperback You can get it online wherever
you want There's a lot of life lessons to be
learned from this book and and While you didn't
underline them and say pay attention that's kind
of a little bit of what's going on is there Yes,
I mean the being in the military going to the
Academy being in the military was such an amazing
Amazing experience in my life that I have reached
back and grabbed hold of when I needed to in
the middle school as a mother you know as a wife
as a as a citizen you you really have you've
learned more than you know yeah it it helps you
remember you'll get through this and i often
ask uh somebody you know would just would you
have your own uh would you recommend to your
own child that they go into the military but
you've already answered that question tell us
about your son a little bit and a little bit
about your husband's service so my husband is
a grad went to the Academy from South Carolina.
We met there, actually didn't really date there,
but we met there. And he was a B -52 pilot. We
were both stationed in Warner Robbins and then
again at Rome Air Force, Rome Air Development
Center, Griffiths Air Force Base in upstate New
York. The problem with our service was a joint
spouse assignment was really difficult back in
the day. So after my five years, he stayed on
a little bit longer, but it got too difficult
for us to find assignments together, especially
with an operational job in the flying side and
a research job on the other side. But we both
totally appreciate and acknowledge what we got.
from the military and the Academy. And then our
son is our youngest. He's a 2016 grad from the
Academy. He was a C -130 pilot, and now he's
flying C -40s out of Scott Air Force Base, which
was my first assignment. He's married to another
Air Force pilot. So they're working the joint
spouse, and I'm very happy to say it's a lot
better for them than it was for us. Well, it's
a great testament to the Air Force. It's a great
story that you've told and we recommend it to
people and certainly thanks for your pearls of
wisdom both in the book and today on our discussion.
Kathleen, thanks for spending a little time with
Veterans Radio. Thank you so much for having
me. It was my pleasure. And I want to thank everybody
for listening to Veterans Radio today. I am Jim
Fossone. It's been a pleasure to be your host.
I'm a veterans disability lawyer at Legal Help
for Veterans and you can reach us at 800 -693
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