WEBVTT 00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:09.060 All across America and around the world, this 00:00:09.060 --> 00:00:15.160 is Veterans Radio. This is Veterans Radio. Good 00:00:15.160 --> 00:00:18.600 day. I'm Jim Fossone. I'm the Officer of the 00:00:18.600 --> 00:00:20.699 Deck today here on Veterans Radio and thanks 00:00:20.699 --> 00:00:23.469 for joining us. We've got some interesting stories 00:00:23.469 --> 00:00:25.649 for you. We always want to remind you you can 00:00:25.649 --> 00:00:28.750 find more about Veterans Radio at its Facebook 00:00:28.750 --> 00:00:32.429 site or at the web, veteransradio .org, where 00:00:32.429 --> 00:00:35.270 we're on the web 24 -7. You can find a lot of 00:00:35.270 --> 00:00:38.310 our podcasts there as well. We post new ones 00:00:38.310 --> 00:00:42.490 every Tuesday, so you can get a new story, a 00:00:42.490 --> 00:00:45.229 new interview, something you didn't know before 00:00:45.229 --> 00:00:49.219 by going to VeteransRadio .org. 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We were recently identified 00:02:20.340 --> 00:02:25.099 as the in the 15th spot, if you will, of the 00:02:25.099 --> 00:02:30.060 top 100 veteran -centric podcasts by Feet Spot. 00:02:30.639 --> 00:02:33.020 So really pretty proud of being in the top 15. 00:02:33.620 --> 00:02:38.400 So listen in wherever you're at to veteransradio 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:43.199 .org and its podcasts. We want to welcome to 00:02:43.199 --> 00:02:48.500 Veterans Radio today Kathleen Utley -Cornierens 00:02:48.500 --> 00:02:50.960 probably got that wrong help me with that was 00:02:50.960 --> 00:02:57.479 perfect okay Kathleen is a US Air Force veteran 00:02:57.479 --> 00:03:01.259 she went to the Air Force Academy back in the 00:03:01.259 --> 00:03:03.840 day which is what we're going to talk about a 00:03:03.840 --> 00:03:05.620 little history and a little kind of what's going 00:03:05.620 --> 00:03:09.000 on now but Kathleen welcome to Veterans Radio 00:03:09.229 --> 00:03:12.469 Well, thanks, Jim. It's very exciting to be here. 00:03:12.889 --> 00:03:15.689 Well, you know, you had, whether you knew it 00:03:15.689 --> 00:03:19.069 or not, you were in a historic class at the Air 00:03:19.069 --> 00:03:26.110 Force Academy. Tell us a little bit about your 00:03:26.110 --> 00:03:28.569 deciding to go to the Air Force Academy, because 00:03:28.569 --> 00:03:31.250 you have a book out called Bring Me Men, Brought 00:03:31.250 --> 00:03:33.870 Me Women, Marching with the First Female Cadets 00:03:33.870 --> 00:03:37.030 of the U .S. Air Force Academy. Now, we've just 00:03:37.030 --> 00:03:39.449 given away part of the story by reading the title, 00:03:39.530 --> 00:03:43.229 but go ahead and tell us about it. Well, there 00:03:43.229 --> 00:03:46.930 was no way I could have planned to go to the 00:03:46.930 --> 00:03:50.550 Academy when I was a little girl or in high school. 00:03:50.909 --> 00:03:54.229 I was raised in a military family. My father 00:03:54.229 --> 00:04:00.509 was US Army, World War II in Korea. My mother 00:04:00.509 --> 00:04:04.699 also served in the Navy. She's still with us 00:04:04.699 --> 00:04:09.840 at 105. I think she might be maybe the oldest 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:14.180 U .S. Navy female veteran out there. Wow. I don't 00:04:14.180 --> 00:04:20.759 know, but she was a storekeeper and but I never 00:04:20.759 --> 00:04:24.040 saw my parent. I never saw my mom in uniform 00:04:24.040 --> 00:04:26.819 and my dad retired when I was eight. So I didn't 00:04:26.819 --> 00:04:32.430 really have the typical army brat. young childhood, 00:04:32.750 --> 00:04:37.110 but the idea of military and service and discipline 00:04:37.110 --> 00:04:42.089 was all part of my upbringing. And that actually 00:04:42.089 --> 00:04:45.509 had caused you to live overseas and learn another 00:04:45.509 --> 00:04:49.069 language a little bit in those early years, it 00:04:49.069 --> 00:04:52.959 seems. That was after, when my dad retired, we 00:04:52.959 --> 00:04:56.439 were living in Miami, and with the influx of 00:04:56.439 --> 00:05:00.620 Cubans into the area, he thought that we should 00:05:00.620 --> 00:05:03.459 learn how to speak a second language. So he took 00:05:03.459 --> 00:05:06.300 us, lock, stock and barrel, to live in Costa 00:05:06.300 --> 00:05:11.740 Rica, put us in the local schools and said, sink 00:05:11.740 --> 00:05:15.990 or swim, goodbye, good luck. Within two years, 00:05:16.110 --> 00:05:19.670 we were fluent in Spanish and then returned to 00:05:19.670 --> 00:05:24.970 the U .S. in my junior year in high school to 00:05:24.970 --> 00:05:30.290 figure out what was going to be next. You went 00:05:30.290 --> 00:05:34.589 to a small town in Florida. I want to give some 00:05:34.589 --> 00:05:38.209 color to the background here because this leap 00:05:38.209 --> 00:05:41.670 into the Air Force Academy at that point in time 00:05:41.670 --> 00:05:46.149 in the mid 70s is really an unusual leap. So 00:05:46.149 --> 00:05:48.470 give us a little more background here of the 00:05:48.470 --> 00:05:53.389 girl you were. Well, the girl I was was very 00:05:53.389 --> 00:05:56.730 much molded because of that experience of going 00:05:56.730 --> 00:06:00.930 to a foreign country, living in a different environment, 00:06:01.250 --> 00:06:06.009 being an unusual Person and coming back and realizing 00:06:06.009 --> 00:06:10.509 that the world is big the opportunities are big 00:06:10.509 --> 00:06:14.730 and i was in a small town. And wasn't exactly 00:06:14.730 --> 00:06:18.930 sure how do i continue that kind of life when. 00:06:19.709 --> 00:06:22.769 my science instructor, my science teacher in 00:06:22.769 --> 00:06:25.329 high school, stopped me in the hall one day and 00:06:25.329 --> 00:06:29.290 said, oh, Kathy, the Air Force Academy is opening 00:06:29.290 --> 00:06:32.910 up to women. So, you know, your reaction was 00:06:32.910 --> 00:06:34.829 probably so what, you know, I didn't even know 00:06:34.829 --> 00:06:39.529 what that meant, but it planted the seed and 00:06:39.529 --> 00:06:43.649 another. Classmate was applying. His father was 00:06:43.649 --> 00:06:47.149 Air Force. He wanted to go to the Academy, so 00:06:47.149 --> 00:06:52.089 we just followed the procedure together towards 00:06:52.089 --> 00:06:56.009 an application and final acceptance. He unfortunately 00:06:56.009 --> 00:07:00.259 did not get in. And the procedure to go to the 00:07:00.259 --> 00:07:03.360 academy is not exactly like any other college. 00:07:03.839 --> 00:07:07.019 There's physical fitness testing. There's lots 00:07:07.019 --> 00:07:11.720 of procedures that you go through with your senator 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:15.100 or congressperson to get a nomination. Because 00:07:15.100 --> 00:07:18.519 my father was retired military, I got my nomination 00:07:18.519 --> 00:07:23.860 through the presidential channels. But still, 00:07:24.680 --> 00:07:28.399 It's pretty involved and this this was to be 00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:33.279 the first class of women That were admitted to 00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:35.579 the Air Force Academy, is that right? That is 00:07:35.579 --> 00:07:42.160 correct in October of 1975 President Gerald Ford 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:47.379 signed an Appropriations Act that had within 00:07:47.379 --> 00:07:53.439 it the One paragraph that mentioned allowing 00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:56.079 women to enter all the U .S. military service 00:07:56.079 --> 00:08:02.199 academies. So that was in October and by December 00:08:02.199 --> 00:08:08.139 there was a full -blown publicity run that every 00:08:08.139 --> 00:08:11.199 high school received a pamphlet. The superintendent 00:08:11.199 --> 00:08:14.100 of the academy was all around the country on 00:08:14.100 --> 00:08:19.319 television and making speeches trying to populate 00:08:19.319 --> 00:08:23.959 that first class with women, and I was there 00:08:23.959 --> 00:08:27.060 in the hall at high school at the right time. 00:08:27.060 --> 00:08:30.060 I heard the right words. This is a really exclusive 00:08:30.060 --> 00:08:37.120 club because in, what is it, 1976, there were 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:41.159 something like 1 ,700 women applied, but only 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:45.100 157 spaces. Is that about right? That is correct. 00:08:45.139 --> 00:08:49.820 Yes, that is correct. And that's the class that 00:08:49.820 --> 00:08:53.720 graduated in 1980 and became the class that had 00:08:53.720 --> 00:08:58.379 its first set of female cadets who survived these 00:08:58.379 --> 00:09:01.940 tough four years. Tell us a little bit about 00:09:01.940 --> 00:09:08.360 those tough four years. Well, they were extraordinarily 00:09:08.360 --> 00:09:14.019 tough. The interesting part about it was we came 00:09:14.019 --> 00:09:18.750 together, 1 ,500 of us, Men and women so a hundred 00:09:18.750 --> 00:09:21.409 and fifty seven women and the fourteen hundred 00:09:21.409 --> 00:09:25.570 and whatever thirty six men in our class so we 00:09:25.570 --> 00:09:30.210 were the first co -ed class, but We the men in 00:09:30.210 --> 00:09:32.549 our class never knew anything different. They 00:09:32.549 --> 00:09:35.730 came with us. They were a part of a co -ed class 00:09:35.730 --> 00:09:39.710 The classes ahead of us were not as welcoming 00:09:39.710 --> 00:09:47.789 so From the very beginning it was a lot of harassment 00:09:47.789 --> 00:09:51.769 a lot of yelling But some of that was was not 00:09:51.769 --> 00:09:54.830 was gender neutral Everyone got yelled at every 00:09:54.830 --> 00:09:57.789 it was basic training and that's how it went 00:09:57.789 --> 00:10:00.149 the interesting thing about the Air Force Academy 00:10:00.149 --> 00:10:05.850 is they started planning in 1972 When the Equal 00:10:05.850 --> 00:10:08.110 Rights Amendment came out they started planning 00:10:08.110 --> 00:10:12.559 to have women within the Academy if Congress 00:10:12.559 --> 00:10:18.179 mandated. So when Ford signed the legislation 00:10:18.179 --> 00:10:22.240 in October, they went full on with the plans. 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:24.980 They printed the whole plans and programs on 00:10:24.980 --> 00:10:28.559 that same day, October 7th. And it was the first 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:30.879 time one of their plans and programs was printed 00:10:30.879 --> 00:10:34.360 with a pink cover. They ordered special pink 00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:38.919 paper. And part of this is, again, it's a little 00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:42.240 It may be difficult to think back 50 years for 00:10:42.240 --> 00:10:44.480 some of our veteran radio listeners, but we're 00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:49.320 talking about the plans had to include accommodations, 00:10:50.340 --> 00:10:56.100 dormitory rooms, showers, bathrooms. The whole 00:10:56.100 --> 00:10:59.120 physical setup had to be rethought a little bit 00:10:59.120 --> 00:11:03.019 as 10 % of the class, if you will, roughly were 00:11:03.019 --> 00:11:07.629 women in that opening class. The the Academy 00:11:07.629 --> 00:11:10.509 budgeted a hundred thousand dollars to make all 00:11:10.509 --> 00:11:14.190 of the accommodations for the women which included 00:11:14.190 --> 00:11:17.470 converting some of the locker rooms down in the 00:11:17.470 --> 00:11:20.850 in the gymnasium in the field house which included 00:11:20.850 --> 00:11:24.450 converting latrines so they were You know, they 00:11:24.450 --> 00:11:28.610 ripped the urinals off the wall It included a 00:11:28.610 --> 00:11:31.190 separate area which wasn't built separately, 00:11:31.269 --> 00:11:35.129 but it was Fire doors were put into privacy doors 00:11:35.129 --> 00:11:37.730 to separate the women. And the original plan 00:11:37.730 --> 00:11:42.889 was for 150 to 157 women all housed in this separate 00:11:42.889 --> 00:11:47.190 area of the dorms. And all of that done in eight 00:11:47.190 --> 00:11:50.090 months. So there was a lot going on. Uniforms 00:11:50.090 --> 00:11:53.830 procured. Some of the stories are pretty funny 00:11:53.830 --> 00:11:58.309 because when we arrived, they only had socks 00:11:58.309 --> 00:12:01.210 in small sizes. So the women that had bigger 00:12:01.210 --> 00:12:07.360 feet socks didn't fit. They didn't have any undergarments 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:09.740 for the women and they had a young airman waiting 00:12:09.740 --> 00:12:14.080 at JCPenney's by the telephone and he got a call 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:18.220 with measurements and he had to run by bras or 00:12:18.220 --> 00:12:21.539 underwear for each of the women as we came through. 00:12:22.460 --> 00:12:26.639 Even today we find that the military is still 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:30.659 adjusting its uniforms to accommodate women. 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:35.639 in the service. So it's been a long road to get 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:38.120 to the right spot here. One of the things you 00:12:38.120 --> 00:12:40.159 mentioned were the locker rooms. And I want to 00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:43.539 bring this up because I'm sure there was no change 00:12:43.539 --> 00:12:47.700 in the academic programs because women were put 00:12:47.700 --> 00:12:53.899 into the academy. But athletics and physical 00:12:53.899 --> 00:12:56.940 training is such an important part of every academy. 00:12:57.580 --> 00:13:01.539 They want their students to be involved in extracurricular 00:13:01.539 --> 00:13:04.600 activities. Tell us a little bit about that aspect 00:13:04.600 --> 00:13:08.480 of the first four years of having women in the 00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:11.340 United States Air Force Academy. Well, as much 00:13:11.340 --> 00:13:13.559 as possible, at least at the Air Force Academy, 00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:17.960 they tried to include the women co -ed teams. 00:13:18.019 --> 00:13:20.980 I played team handball co -ed. I played water 00:13:20.980 --> 00:13:25.600 polo co -ed as a squadron intramural. They also 00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:29.139 had a regular intercollegiate teams that were 00:13:29.139 --> 00:13:31.980 started right away first year with the women 00:13:31.980 --> 00:13:36.000 who had. That kind of background in high school 00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:38.320 like they were track they ran track in high school 00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:40.980 then they ran track for the academy there were 00:13:40.980 --> 00:13:45.120 a few things we didn't do wrestling there were 00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:48.960 a few accommodations and they were very the academy 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:53.200 tried very hard not to change. too many of the 00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:55.279 accommodations. Now we had physical fitness tests 00:13:55.279 --> 00:13:59.340 every year and the standards for the men and 00:13:59.340 --> 00:14:01.080 the women were a little different because of 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:05.659 physiological differences. But we all went to 00:14:05.659 --> 00:14:08.679 intramurals or intercollegiate sports. We all 00:14:08.679 --> 00:14:12.179 took PE, different sports and participated. We 00:14:12.179 --> 00:14:14.639 all did the morning runs, all of us together, 00:14:15.320 --> 00:14:17.960 you know, full fatigues, combat boots and rifles. 00:14:18.590 --> 00:14:23.669 So they tried to keep it as as even as possible. 00:14:24.049 --> 00:14:27.570 Well, we're talking to United States Air Force 00:14:27.570 --> 00:14:33.330 veteran and Academy grad Kathleen Bernerns. And 00:14:33.330 --> 00:14:39.889 the start of the book is Bring Me Men. And it's 00:14:39.889 --> 00:14:43.549 not until I did a little research that I understood 00:14:43.549 --> 00:14:47.330 what that was about. Now, every Academy grad 00:14:47.330 --> 00:14:52.429 would, but tell us where that phrase comes from 00:14:52.429 --> 00:14:56.350 at the Academy. So when we arrived and so when 00:14:56.350 --> 00:14:59.830 all cadets arrived at the Academy up until our 00:14:59.830 --> 00:15:03.269 year or up until the year 2003, you arrive at 00:15:03.269 --> 00:15:07.789 the bottom of a giant ramp that leads from a 00:15:07.789 --> 00:15:12.789 parking area and a giant concrete canyon almost 00:15:12.789 --> 00:15:15.889 up a ramp that leads to the cadet area which 00:15:15.889 --> 00:15:20.330 is a giant square with dorms on two sides the 00:15:20.330 --> 00:15:24.870 chapel and then the academic buildings and above 00:15:24.870 --> 00:15:29.450 that ramp in giant silver letters were the words 00:15:29.450 --> 00:15:34.889 bring me men and that again took the academy 00:15:34.889 --> 00:15:37.769 until i think you said it was like two thousand 00:15:37.769 --> 00:15:42.220 and three maybe 2003 correct to remove that that 00:15:42.220 --> 00:15:48.320 that phrase comes from a 1894 poem apparently 00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:52.539 by Sam Walter Foss extolling the expansionist 00:15:52.539 --> 00:15:54.340 spirit of the country and the first two lines 00:15:54.340 --> 00:15:59.000 read the of the coming America poem reads bring 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:01.639 me men to match my mountains bring me men to 00:16:01.639 --> 00:16:05.220 match my planes and that's where that comes from 00:16:05.929 --> 00:16:09.129 But it had to feel a little out of date out of 00:16:09.129 --> 00:16:12.029 sorts when when you in the subsequent classes 00:16:12.029 --> 00:16:15.909 started arriving, didn't it? Well in my daughter 00:16:15.909 --> 00:16:18.070 it's funny because my daughter asked me that 00:16:18.070 --> 00:16:21.450 and I said we didn't have time to look at it 00:16:21.450 --> 00:16:24.070 For the first couple years, you know, it was 00:16:24.070 --> 00:16:26.970 keeping your eyes caged looking straight ahead 00:16:26.970 --> 00:16:30.129 March look at the back of the airmen in front 00:16:30.129 --> 00:16:35.159 of you But after a while and knowing the history 00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:38.879 of the words that it came from a poem and in 00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:42.419 my own mind thinking, okay, this is men in the 00:16:42.419 --> 00:16:44.919 in the world's least sense, not in the gender 00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:49.559 sense. I was okay with it. I mean, I marched 00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:52.059 up the bring me men ramp on day one and I marched 00:16:52.059 --> 00:16:55.899 down when we graduated. However, as time went 00:16:55.899 --> 00:17:02.860 on, nobody is. Nobody can say for sure what how 00:17:02.860 --> 00:17:06.440 other people interpreted it and the fact that 00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:10.680 others were potentially interpreting it with 00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:14.180 Mal intent or some kind of prejudice that women 00:17:14.180 --> 00:17:18.160 didn't belong and because of the sexual assault 00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:24.000 scandals at the Academy the Between Congress 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:27.299 and Academy administration they decided to take 00:17:27.299 --> 00:17:29.869 the words down Well, it certainly was a bad look 00:17:29.869 --> 00:17:33.109 in the 2000s, so it was more than time to go. 00:17:33.390 --> 00:17:36.130 And I should point out from a little bit of additional 00:17:36.130 --> 00:17:40.109 research that probably over 15 ,000 women have 00:17:40.109 --> 00:17:45.309 now graduated from the different military academies, 00:17:45.569 --> 00:17:50.269 Air Force, West Point, Naval, Coast Guard, Merchant 00:17:50.269 --> 00:17:55.769 Marines. And the Merchant Marines actually, Academy 00:17:55.769 --> 00:18:00.279 actually had women in the class in 1974, so a 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:05.180 little bit earlier before President Ford signed 00:18:05.180 --> 00:18:10.819 his bill into law. And it's sort of interesting 00:18:10.819 --> 00:18:14.279 how many people have now gone through there. 00:18:14.279 --> 00:18:18.039 We certainly have a number of friends, women 00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:20.099 who have graduated from the Air Force Academy, 00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:22.019 actually just saw one last week at a football 00:18:22.019 --> 00:18:28.460 game. And there's a If you survive, I think this 00:18:28.460 --> 00:18:31.759 is true of any academy, if you survive that academy, 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:36.900 that's an experience that binds you to all of 00:18:36.900 --> 00:18:40.079 those other 15 ,000 women. Do you feel that? 00:18:41.099 --> 00:18:45.779 I feel it more than ever, and I feel it especially 00:18:45.779 --> 00:18:50.500 this year, because this year is the 50th year 00:18:50.500 --> 00:18:54.609 since President Ford signed that bill and my 00:18:54.609 --> 00:18:57.509 talk at the Ford Library was going to be honoring 00:18:57.509 --> 00:19:02.069 that anniversary. And there have been 50 celebrations 00:19:02.069 --> 00:19:06.069 across the U .S. with women from all of the service 00:19:06.069 --> 00:19:10.170 academies to celebrate that sisterhood, that 00:19:10.170 --> 00:19:13.150 long line of women who have graduated. In fact, 00:19:13.450 --> 00:19:16.529 on the 7th of October, a group of women rang 00:19:16.529 --> 00:19:19.670 the bell, the closing bell at the New York Stock 00:19:19.670 --> 00:19:23.980 Exchange. Again, it's a very small club when 00:19:23.980 --> 00:19:27.339 you think about it, really. And you served from 00:19:27.339 --> 00:19:32.920 1980 to 1985 and afterwards, I believe, picked 00:19:32.920 --> 00:19:36.460 up an MBA from Rensselaer Polytech Institute, 00:19:36.579 --> 00:19:40.180 RPI, and went on to a long career in education 00:19:40.180 --> 00:19:43.160 with some of the toughest assignments I can think 00:19:43.160 --> 00:19:46.720 of. You actually taught middle school kids, oh 00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:48.579 my goodness. I worked with middle schoolers, 00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:51.859 I did, I did. And my academy training came in 00:19:51.859 --> 00:19:55.920 handy. Probably handy in combat and how to take 00:19:55.920 --> 00:20:02.200 abuse, verbal abuse for kids. But let's not gloss 00:20:02.200 --> 00:20:05.660 over the fact that there were rough spots during 00:20:05.660 --> 00:20:08.180 these initial four years. You've mentioned the 00:20:08.180 --> 00:20:11.420 harassment, it sounds like maybe particularly 00:20:11.420 --> 00:20:15.000 from class. uh, mates who were not in the original 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:17.380 class, who had, had gone through just with men 00:20:17.380 --> 00:20:21.579 in the class the three years prior. And unfortunately 00:20:21.579 --> 00:20:24.359 we have, uh, we, we continue to hear stories 00:20:24.359 --> 00:20:27.079 out of the Academy of, of sexual harassment and 00:20:27.079 --> 00:20:31.859 mistreatment. Talk a little bit about your experiences, 00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:36.000 but your views today, looking back on what the 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:39.039 Academy maybe could do better or different in 00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:44.180 this regards. Let me say this in terms of why 00:20:44.180 --> 00:20:48.299 the experiment of our class was a success one 00:20:48.299 --> 00:20:52.359 because there was There was positive leadership 00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:57.119 that were were promoting the idea of this being 00:20:57.119 --> 00:21:00.839 a good thing There was not at the Air Force Academy. 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:05.329 There was planning and preparation As I told 00:21:05.329 --> 00:21:08.390 you before, we were billeted in a separate area. 00:21:08.730 --> 00:21:12.690 That turned out to be not a good idea. And the 00:21:12.690 --> 00:21:15.730 administration of the academy, the superintendent, 00:21:16.329 --> 00:21:21.269 the dean, and the commandant had the leadership 00:21:21.269 --> 00:21:25.289 foresight to pivot. They weren't so embedded 00:21:25.289 --> 00:21:28.470 in their decision. They didn't... they couldn't 00:21:28.470 --> 00:21:31.089 change it. So in the middle of the year, instead 00:21:31.089 --> 00:21:34.650 of having us just in 20 squad, half of the Academy 00:21:34.650 --> 00:21:37.470 and in a separate area, they moved us to all 00:21:37.470 --> 00:21:40.190 of the Academy. So by the time the second year, 00:21:40.289 --> 00:21:44.029 the second group year women came through, the 00:21:44.029 --> 00:21:47.450 whole Academy was integrated. So that was a wonderful 00:21:47.450 --> 00:21:51.410 success. There was success because our classmates 00:21:51.410 --> 00:21:55.190 helped us, because it was men and women working 00:21:55.190 --> 00:21:59.180 together. Like I said before, they didn't know 00:21:59.180 --> 00:22:02.299 any other academy. It was a co -ed school with 00:22:02.299 --> 00:22:05.500 our class, and they were incredibly supportive. 00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:12.220 So many of those things went right. There were 00:22:12.220 --> 00:22:16.940 decisions that were made that were defined by 00:22:16.940 --> 00:22:22.119 small items that became large, for example, uniforms. 00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:26.869 We weren't allowed to march in skirts. But because 00:22:26.869 --> 00:22:30.849 we had to go to class in skirts and March immediately 00:22:30.849 --> 00:22:33.690 after everybody had all the women had to run 00:22:33.690 --> 00:22:37.269 and change and come back and that decision was 00:22:37.269 --> 00:22:41.730 made based on something visual and not actually 00:22:41.730 --> 00:22:48.250 that the the functional needs of The Airmen are 00:22:48.250 --> 00:22:51.210 the cadet that was at the Academy. So those kind 00:22:51.210 --> 00:22:55.180 of things were lessons learned The Academy now 00:22:55.180 --> 00:23:00.759 has close to 30 % women. Women graduated, go 00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:04.039 ahead, I'm sorry. No, no, you triggered some 00:23:04.039 --> 00:23:06.740 more research that I did, which is the graduating 00:23:06.740 --> 00:23:12.279 class of this year was 31 % women, 69 % men, 00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:18.299 23 % of the overall class were minority, 45 % 00:23:18.299 --> 00:23:21.900 of the class had undergraduate pilot training. 00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:26.279 And this is a scary factoid from the website. 00:23:27.339 --> 00:23:30.279 The high school GPA to get into the academy was 00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:34.059 3 .88. Let's call it 3 .9. I don't know about 00:23:34.059 --> 00:23:36.859 you, but I didn't have a 3 .9 in high school. 00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:40.880 These are smart men and women is my point. They 00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:43.539 are. They are they are smart and they're also 00:23:43.539 --> 00:23:46.680 aware and I think that's a good thing is because 00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:51.039 of what's available on the academy websites what 00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:53.500 what students know from their liaison officers 00:23:53.500 --> 00:23:55.859 when they're in high school what the academy 00:23:55.859 --> 00:24:01.019 does in outreach to to to bring information to. 00:24:01.539 --> 00:24:04.259 Young students that are thinking about going 00:24:04.259 --> 00:24:07.920 to the academy what they can see on youtube about 00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:11.250 what to expect there a little bit. they're a 00:24:11.250 --> 00:24:14.789 lot more prepared than we were. I was totally 00:24:14.789 --> 00:24:18.750 blind. I had no idea. So the small town, they're 00:24:18.750 --> 00:24:21.190 better off than the small town girl from Florida 00:24:21.190 --> 00:24:23.049 who spoke Spanish. Well, and some of the men 00:24:23.049 --> 00:24:25.549 in our class. Let's try. Let's just try this. 00:24:25.609 --> 00:24:28.509 I want to do something different. No idea how 00:24:28.509 --> 00:24:31.670 different that was. You mentioned liaison officers, 00:24:31.670 --> 00:24:34.210 and I want you to talk about this because anybody 00:24:34.210 --> 00:24:37.329 who's maybe got a son or a daughter thinking 00:24:37.329 --> 00:24:41.539 about an academy there nowadays there's a whole 00:24:41.539 --> 00:24:44.460 you really have to work at getting yourself in 00:24:44.460 --> 00:24:47.480 line to get an appointment congressional or otherwise 00:24:47.480 --> 00:24:51.759 but there's this little secret club called liaison 00:24:51.759 --> 00:24:53.960 officers and i think most people don't know about 00:24:53.960 --> 00:24:56.480 till too late tell us what a liaison officer 00:24:56.480 --> 00:25:00.750 is So the liaison officers are the representatives 00:25:00.750 --> 00:25:02.930 of the Air Force Academy that have a certain 00:25:02.930 --> 00:25:06.890 territory. Our son is a 16 grad from the Air 00:25:06.890 --> 00:25:10.170 Force Academy. So when he was in high school 00:25:10.170 --> 00:25:13.230 and he wanted to talk about going to the Academy, 00:25:13.690 --> 00:25:15.710 instead of hearing mom and dad's war stories, 00:25:16.609 --> 00:25:19.509 we called the local liaison officer to come over 00:25:19.509 --> 00:25:24.240 and talk to him and give him the current Story 00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:28.160 the current scoop on what the academy was expecting 00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:31.759 what he should do at what time because there 00:25:31.759 --> 00:25:36.279 are a lot of gates to to prepare for your app 00:25:36.279 --> 00:25:40.299 for your your appointment and your and your nomination 00:25:40.299 --> 00:25:44.339 and your acceptance and so the liaison officers 00:25:44.339 --> 00:25:47.680 that guide that guy that gets you through each 00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:50.220 step and yes high school guidance counselors 00:25:50.220 --> 00:25:53.660 know. Stuff and the Academy admissions office 00:25:53.660 --> 00:25:58.339 certainly knows but that local liaison officer 00:25:58.339 --> 00:26:02.440 is is an Air Force officer sometimes a reservist 00:26:02.440 --> 00:26:06.880 but Available to those high school students to 00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:09.140 help them guide them through the process It's 00:26:09.140 --> 00:26:12.779 really a fantastic resource that again many kids 00:26:12.779 --> 00:26:15.519 don't know about till too late Because you really 00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:17.980 have to start this process not in your senior 00:26:17.980 --> 00:26:21.099 year ideally in your sophomore year when you 00:26:21.099 --> 00:26:23.220 can start lining up and checking all the boxes 00:26:23.220 --> 00:26:25.119 and taking all the courses and doing all the 00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:28.519 extra work but you need somebody to guide you 00:26:28.519 --> 00:26:30.220 or point you in a direction and that's one of 00:26:30.220 --> 00:26:32.839 the things that liaison officers do that again 00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:36.339 most people don't know about. When you were writing 00:26:36.339 --> 00:26:39.319 this and this is a monumental task to write this 00:26:39.319 --> 00:26:44.059 history from 50 years ago talk a little bit about 00:26:44.059 --> 00:26:46.420 you know what were you thinking when you took 00:26:46.420 --> 00:26:49.779 on this project and what surprised you out of 00:26:49.779 --> 00:26:55.319 it? My initial attempt at writing down the story 00:26:55.319 --> 00:26:58.039 was because I wanted to tell my children. So 00:26:58.039 --> 00:27:01.119 I have two daughters and a son, and I wanted 00:27:01.119 --> 00:27:05.720 to tell them the story of our class, of my journey 00:27:05.720 --> 00:27:08.440 through the academy. Their father is a classmate, 00:27:08.579 --> 00:27:14.150 so all of that was the attempt at writing. But 00:27:14.150 --> 00:27:17.829 as I started writing down my story, my letters 00:27:17.829 --> 00:27:21.210 to my parents, my parents' letters to me, other 00:27:21.210 --> 00:27:23.309 classmates came to me and started telling me 00:27:23.309 --> 00:27:29.829 their stories. And the journey was similar, but 00:27:29.829 --> 00:27:33.369 the stories were disparate. And everyone had 00:27:33.369 --> 00:27:36.789 a little bit of a different experience, whether 00:27:36.789 --> 00:27:41.660 it was primarily in the athletics. sword in the 00:27:41.660 --> 00:27:43.799 athletics or they struggled in the academics 00:27:43.799 --> 00:27:48.000 or vice versa. Time management, you know, didn't 00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:50.740 understand military rank and it took me forever 00:27:50.740 --> 00:27:54.619 to identify the pictures of the airplanes when 00:27:54.619 --> 00:27:57.559 they held them up. So all those things came together 00:27:57.559 --> 00:28:02.500 and it made a very unique mosaic of a story. 00:28:03.660 --> 00:28:06.279 So that's when I started to put it all together. 00:28:06.700 --> 00:28:10.730 And what surprised you then as you wrote this. 00:28:11.869 --> 00:28:17.089 It surprised me how emotional the writing was. 00:28:17.849 --> 00:28:20.529 I used to go to the library every single day. 00:28:20.670 --> 00:28:24.170 and just sit down for three hours and see what 00:28:24.170 --> 00:28:26.829 came to me. And the librarian would just bring 00:28:26.829 --> 00:28:31.049 over a box of tissues because sometimes the stories 00:28:31.049 --> 00:28:34.430 were hilarious and funny. And sometimes they 00:28:34.430 --> 00:28:37.450 were so emotional to remember how hard it was 00:28:37.450 --> 00:28:41.470 or how demanding or how weak I might have felt 00:28:41.470 --> 00:28:44.430 or someone else's pain that they had told me. 00:28:44.769 --> 00:28:47.130 It was hard. One of the things that comes across 00:28:47.130 --> 00:28:53.250 when you read it is that resilience or that desire 00:28:53.250 --> 00:28:56.809 to get through. Tomorrow will be better than 00:28:56.809 --> 00:29:01.690 today kind of thing. And I think we all, that's 00:29:01.690 --> 00:29:05.710 a lesson to be learned by everyone in life. There 00:29:05.710 --> 00:29:07.789 are going to be those days where you just want 00:29:07.789 --> 00:29:12.069 to give up, don't you? You do. And I lost a couple 00:29:12.069 --> 00:29:15.769 of roommates who decided it wasn't for them. 00:29:16.349 --> 00:29:20.349 And that was hard because you felt like this 00:29:20.349 --> 00:29:22.710 security blanket in your roommate was pulled 00:29:22.710 --> 00:29:28.029 away from you. But it was just a matter of managing 00:29:28.029 --> 00:29:33.170 not even the day but managing the next Item on 00:29:33.170 --> 00:29:36.430 the agenda whether it was a drill practice or 00:29:36.430 --> 00:29:40.769 an inspection or an exam or You just you had 00:29:40.769 --> 00:29:44.029 to take it just in little tiny steps And that's 00:29:44.029 --> 00:29:46.089 one of the things the Academy and the military 00:29:46.089 --> 00:29:50.089 teaches you how to manage projects how to manage 00:29:50.089 --> 00:29:54.829 life how to manage training in in whatever the 00:29:54.829 --> 00:29:58.089 time management and energy management and emotional 00:29:58.089 --> 00:30:02.180 management of the moment Well, that's that's 00:30:02.180 --> 00:30:04.500 why those middle schoolers were so easy for you 00:30:04.500 --> 00:30:07.079 to work with because you'd really figure it out 00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:09.480 Okay, I just gotta get through the moment. So 00:30:09.480 --> 00:30:11.720 I mean, that's it. That's an important feature 00:30:11.720 --> 00:30:16.099 now again The the the book is titled bring me 00:30:16.099 --> 00:30:19.740 men brought women Marching with the first female 00:30:19.740 --> 00:30:22.000 cadets of the United States Air Force Academy. 00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:25.339 It's out in paperback You can get it online wherever 00:30:25.339 --> 00:30:29.859 you want There's a lot of life lessons to be 00:30:29.859 --> 00:30:34.940 learned from this book and and While you didn't 00:30:34.940 --> 00:30:37.180 underline them and say pay attention that's kind 00:30:37.180 --> 00:30:40.819 of a little bit of what's going on is there Yes, 00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:43.960 I mean the being in the military going to the 00:30:43.960 --> 00:30:47.460 Academy being in the military was such an amazing 00:30:47.460 --> 00:30:51.039 Amazing experience in my life that I have reached 00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:54.960 back and grabbed hold of when I needed to in 00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:58.569 the middle school as a mother you know as a wife 00:30:58.569 --> 00:31:02.569 as a as a citizen you you really have you've 00:31:02.569 --> 00:31:05.769 learned more than you know yeah it it helps you 00:31:05.769 --> 00:31:07.890 remember you'll get through this and i often 00:31:07.890 --> 00:31:10.549 ask uh somebody you know would just would you 00:31:10.549 --> 00:31:12.410 have your own uh would you recommend to your 00:31:12.410 --> 00:31:14.410 own child that they go into the military but 00:31:14.410 --> 00:31:17.829 you've already answered that question tell us 00:31:17.829 --> 00:31:19.470 about your son a little bit and a little bit 00:31:19.470 --> 00:31:22.210 about your husband's service so my husband is 00:31:22.210 --> 00:31:26.150 a grad went to the Academy from South Carolina. 00:31:27.210 --> 00:31:30.390 We met there, actually didn't really date there, 00:31:30.450 --> 00:31:34.970 but we met there. And he was a B -52 pilot. We 00:31:34.970 --> 00:31:38.950 were both stationed in Warner Robbins and then 00:31:38.950 --> 00:31:42.910 again at Rome Air Force, Rome Air Development 00:31:42.910 --> 00:31:45.369 Center, Griffiths Air Force Base in upstate New 00:31:45.369 --> 00:31:49.390 York. The problem with our service was a joint 00:31:49.390 --> 00:31:52.250 spouse assignment was really difficult back in 00:31:52.250 --> 00:31:57.349 the day. So after my five years, he stayed on 00:31:57.349 --> 00:31:59.789 a little bit longer, but it got too difficult 00:31:59.789 --> 00:32:01.930 for us to find assignments together, especially 00:32:01.930 --> 00:32:06.730 with an operational job in the flying side and 00:32:06.730 --> 00:32:11.369 a research job on the other side. But we both 00:32:11.369 --> 00:32:15.650 totally appreciate and acknowledge what we got. 00:32:15.710 --> 00:32:18.529 from the military and the Academy. And then our 00:32:18.529 --> 00:32:22.670 son is our youngest. He's a 2016 grad from the 00:32:22.670 --> 00:32:25.890 Academy. He was a C -130 pilot, and now he's 00:32:25.890 --> 00:32:29.569 flying C -40s out of Scott Air Force Base, which 00:32:29.569 --> 00:32:33.109 was my first assignment. He's married to another 00:32:33.109 --> 00:32:36.710 Air Force pilot. So they're working the joint 00:32:36.710 --> 00:32:39.349 spouse, and I'm very happy to say it's a lot 00:32:39.349 --> 00:32:42.970 better for them than it was for us. Well, it's 00:32:42.970 --> 00:32:47.970 a great testament to the Air Force. It's a great 00:32:47.970 --> 00:32:50.910 story that you've told and we recommend it to 00:32:50.910 --> 00:32:54.490 people and certainly thanks for your pearls of 00:32:54.490 --> 00:32:58.250 wisdom both in the book and today on our discussion. 00:32:58.789 --> 00:33:00.509 Kathleen, thanks for spending a little time with 00:33:00.509 --> 00:33:02.849 Veterans Radio. Thank you so much for having 00:33:02.849 --> 00:33:05.720 me. It was my pleasure. And I want to thank everybody 00:33:05.720 --> 00:33:08.519 for listening to Veterans Radio today. I am Jim 00:33:08.519 --> 00:33:11.400 Fossone. It's been a pleasure to be your host. 00:33:11.579 --> 00:33:14.220 I'm a veterans disability lawyer at Legal Help 00:33:14.220 --> 00:33:18.200 for Veterans and you can reach us at 800 -693 00:33:18.200 --> 00:33:23.000 -4800 or legalhelpforveterans .com on the web. 00:33:23.720 --> 00:33:26.579 You can follow Veterans Radio on Facebook and 00:33:26.579 --> 00:33:29.519 listen to its podcasts and internet radio shows 00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:33.710 by visiting us at veteransradio .org. That's 00:33:33.710 --> 00:33:36.970 veteransradio .org. We would again want to thank 00:33:36.970 --> 00:33:40.089 our national sponsors, the National Veterans 00:33:40.089 --> 00:33:45.529 Business Development Council, nvbdc .org. 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