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listen in wherever you're at to veteransradio
.org and its podcasts. We want to welcome to
Veterans Radio today, Matt Van Ocker. He is the
director and curator of the Save the Flags Project
in the state of Michigan. Matt, welcome to Veterans
Radio. Oh, thank you, Jim. I'm honored to be
invited. Well, this is something I stumbled upon,
and these are always the best stories. It's like,
I didn't know that. So tell us about the Save
the Flag Project here in the state of Michigan.
So our project started, Jim, about 30 years ago
as a part of the restoration of the State Capitol
here in Lansing, where I work. The battle flags,
240 of them had been housed in the Capitol since
shortly after its construction, at least the
Civil War flags. And then the latter war flags
from the Spanish -American War and World War
I. joined the collection after those conflicts.
But they've been housed predominantly in the
rotunda and in the east wing of the building
on the first floor. And the thought originally
was to encapsulate the cases to protect those
flags during the dust and dirt. confusion of
the restoration of the Capitol, but we started
looking into the collection more thoroughly and
we realized that we were in real danger of losing
the entire collection if something wasn't done
and done fairly quickly to arrest their deterioration.
The flags were exposed to fluctuating temperature
and humidity, almost constant natural and artificial
light. Not to mention the fact that for years
the designated smoking area in the state capitol
was in fact the rotunda literally right beside
our most prized state's possession of historic
artifacts. So we formed a task force as state
governments are wanting to do when they're faced
with the dilemma. What's the first thing you
do? You form a committee to try to figure out.
And then you issue a report, right? Then you've
got to issue a report. Exactly. So we formed
the Save the Flags Task Force. very inclusive
task force, reenactors, veterans, historians,
state museum personnel, or state and capital
personnel and museum personnel. We hired one
of the nation's leading battle flag conservators
to come in and evaluate our collection. And it
was basically based on that evaluation that the
decision was made. to remove the flags from the
building. We have a wonderful partnership with
our friends at the State Historical Center and
the State Historical Museum down the street from
the Capitol. They provided a wonderful state
of the art archival storage space. The flags
were all very carefully removed. from their entombed
glass cases at the Capitol, and were carefully
transferred over to this archival space at the
museum, where we can control. basically the elements
of their destruction, we can control humidity
and temperature and light and gravity. And most
of the infantry flags measured six by six and
a half foot. And the weight of the flags themselves
was kind of contributing to their own deterioration.
So each of the flags is laid on an asset -free
pallet over at this special archival storage
space. And so that was our first step in conserving
them. For those who may not know what a battle
flag is, and you've got 240 of them. Some of
them are now, what, 200 years old or something.
Tell us what a battle flag is. Yeah, I'm really,
really glad you asked. We'll kind of split the
collection into categories, if you will. Out
of the 240 flags in our collection, the bulk
of them, 160. were carried by Michigan soldiers
on the battlefields of the Civil War. The latter
war flags, the Spanish -American War, World War
I flags, and we actually have a flag that was
used in Vietnam now also, those were used very
differently. They tended to be camp flags, so
they marked the position of the officers of the
regiment, if you will, whereas the Civil War
flags saw active duty on the battlefields. Most
of your listeners, I'm sure are familiar with
Napoleonic tactics, but this is what was used
during the Civil War. And to put it bluntly,
there's no easy way of stating this lines of
our men marching against other lines of our men,
trying to get close enough to kill each other.
The way you kept your proper alignment on the
battlefield was by being with what they affectionately
referred to as the colors. by being with the
regimental standards. As those flags advanced,
the regiment would literally rally on them, inform
on them as they went back and retreat, the regiment
would go with them. If that color bearer, the
man who was assigned the duty or volunteered
for the duty to carry the flag, planted his staff
in the ground, every man of the regiment that
knew that that was a signal to them to fight
to the last man necessary to both defend their
regimental flag, but also to defend their regiment's
position on the battlefield. Please. In a world
where there's now instant communication, it's
hard to think back to a time when I needed to
see that flag waving to know where my guys were
and what I was supposed to do. But that was that
was a way of communicating. that really was,
you know, it's not like they could pull out their
cell phones and text each other and say, hey,
we're here now, but we're headed over to that
clump of trees next. And so the battle flags
were hugely important form of communication.
They also stood as a symbol. for what the men
were fighting for, to encourage the esprit de
corps that these men had for their regimental
flags. And the Confederates, of course, recognize
what is the quickest and surest way of confusing
and disheartening the Union troops. You kill
the man who's carrying the flag. You drop that
enemy color. And if that happens, or even better
yet, you're able to capture that Union flag,
you'll have a whole regiment literally in disarray.
So the flags become the focal point of combat,
and it becomes, if you will, a very deadly game
of capture the flag, because the Union troops,
Michigan troops recognize in turn the surest
way to dishearten the Confederate forces are
to capture their flags. There's 69 men from Michigan
are awarded the Medal of Honor for action during
the Civil War, and the overwhelming majority
received those medals due to action that took
place defending colors or in capturing Confederate
flags. These flags then are in the midst of the
battle, and I assume that their condition is
bullet -ridden, bayonet -ridden, tattered from
the wind, everything you can think of. How is
it that 200 years ago, they didn't just all get
put on the scrap key? Yeah, so, again, the men
have an incredible emotional attachment to their
colors because of the action that took place
around them, literally. They witnessed the deaths
of friends who were carrying the colors. As you
mentioned, they're bullet -ridden, blood -stained.
Many of our flags have the blood of the men who
died defending them on the battlefields of the
war. 24th, Michigan, we have their Gettysburg
flag. They suffered 80 % casualties on the first
day of combat at Gettysburg on July 1st of 63.
Nine men were killed or mortally wounded carrying
that flag in combat at that single battle. That
flag is in our collection. You can look to it
and see the bloodstains. So the flags, to answer
your question, become emotionally very important
to the men. And so when the war ends a year after
the end of the war in 1866, the regiments are
ordered by the state of Michigan to return those
colors. to the care of the state grand ceremony
in Detroit and the campus marshes 75 ,000 citizens
attended this event it was a tenth of this a
tenth of the state's population that traveled
to Detroit to see our veterans bring their beloved
battle flags back and and to formally turn them
over to the state so that's how we get the bulk
of the collection and how they weren't just thrown
on the scrap heap you know as you mentioned but
we're Really just a very important part of the
regiment's history. These are really sacred items.
The reason they existed and they were turned
in in such a massive ceremony is the men, the
veterans, these were sacred items, weren't they?
They really were. You know, I was able to honor
a group of active duty Michigan Guard troops
at their armory in Wyoming a few years back for
a donation they had made to our collection, a
financial donation. The state doesn't really
fund the project, so this is where I put the
plug in. We take donations from individuals,
families, organizations to help with our work
with caring for them and their conservation,
but they They were also they added a change of
command ceremony as a part of me being out there.
And they showed the same reverence for their
regimental colors at that command ceremony that
these boys did, you know, 160 plus years ago,
you know, after the end of the Civil War. So
it's a connection that our modern military and
service people still have to their literally
their beloved unit flags. Well, you mentioned
it, so I'll bring it up now and we'll get to
some more questions I have. But I wanted to point
out to people that, yeah, this is a labor of
love on these sacred battle flags, but it's got
to be funded somehow. And you can go to Michigan
Battle Flags, mscbattleflags .org. You'll find
a lot of information, but you can also find out
how to adopt a flag. Explain that to me. Oh,
thank you, Jim. I appreciate you bringing that
up, too. So early on, we were challenged with
fundraising. The state doesn't fund the project.
We have received occasionally some small appropriations
from the legislature, but the bulk of the money
we spend in caring for the collection and most
of our flags that have been conserved thus far,
we've had to have done out state. one of the
nation's leading battlefly conservators in West
Virginia. So my wife and I literally drive them
out to West Virginia to this conservation firm
that stabilizes them. And then, you know, we
bring it back. But we figured the best way of
getting people involved would be at the grassroots
level. So for $1 ,000, it's kind of a Oh, Number
we sort of pulled out of the thin air for a thousand
dollars groups or families or individuals can
adopt a flag in our collection They don't get
to take the flag home with them But in name only
they adopt the flag and then we honor them with
a ceremony Here at the Capitol or at the museum
where they can actually see the battle flags
or I'll take the show on the road and go out
to any parts of Michigan to honor groups that
have donated money and then with that money we
pay to have the flag stabilized. I will put another
plug in for our project though. Three years ago,
we opened a wonderful Heritage Hall Welcome Center
at the State Capitol, an underground facility.
As a part of that, we were able to have built
a conservation lab. And I've also been able since
then to have two of our staff trained. with the
same company that does our conservation work.
So for the first time ever in 30 year history
of this Save the Flags project, we're actually
conducting onsite conservation also right here
in the Capitol. We have a really neat viewing
window where people that are coming through Heritage
Hall. can actually look through the window and
see one of our battle flags. And if the timing
is appropriate, they can actually see some of
our staff stabilizing that flag. So that's a
really proud moment for me to report. It is really
interesting. I've been at the Smithsonian and
when they were restoring some of the flags there
and huge ones and they're hanging upside down
to get the stitches right in this. But explain
to us then what restoration and conservation
needs. You're not putting new fabric on this
thing or dying it. Tell us what you do. We're
not. To some people it's a very obvious difference
between the two terms, but for others it's more
of a subtle difference. The two terms conservation
and restoration tend to be used pretty interchangeably,
but they're really very two distinct terms. So
restoration, as you mentioned, we'd be sewing
new fabric onto these old flags, we'd be sewing
up the bullet holes, we'd be washing off the
blood stains, and we would attempt to try to
make that flag look like it did when it was brand
new. first presented to the regiment, what we
do is stabilize. We can serve flags as is. We
do not want to lose that very important part
of that flag's history. Were we to restore a
flag, in my mind, that would be a sacrilege to
the flag and to the... the sacrifices that took
place beneath it, the bullet holes and the blood
stains and the saber slashes and the rips on
the fly end and the hand stitching that the soldiers
did to desperately try to keep the flags intact
on the battlefield. Those are all such very important
parts of that flag's history. Now, most of our
Civil War flags were netted. in the 1960s in
an ill -fated attempt to stabilize and conserve
them. And they were actually sent out to a lady
in New York who sewed them between dyed layers
of net through her sewing machine, literally
with a zigzag pattern, literally putting tens
of thousands of holes in those battle flags.
That netting is deteriorating. It's degrading,
for one thing. And the danger is that it's becoming
embedded into the original silk. Most of the
original flags are made of silk. It was lightweight
but durable. So our goal is to remove the netting.
That means our conservators, whether here at
Heritage Hall or out in West Virginia, they have
to snip each individual stitch with surgeon scissors.
Each stitch is carefully removed with forceps.
that releases the 60s netting, which we get off.
The flags are humidified and relaxed. The fabric
is relaxed and straightened out, and then re
-encapsulated between layers of modern material.
And we don't sew them through the sewing machine.
They're all hand sewn, so we're not damaging
the actual artifact. The work that was done in
the 60s, even though it was well intended, And
we were not the only state that did this. West
Point did it to their collection. A number of
other states did this too. you know, as the state
and the country was commemorating the centennial
of the war, they were trying to do a good thing,
you know, for their flag collections. But what
we do now is we don't damage the artifact. That's
the golden rule on conservation. Do nothing to
an artifact that can't be reversed someday. So
all the work we're doing now can be reversed.
Who's to say 50 years from now, they don't say,
God, what was that? that idiot Van Acker thinking,
you know. Exactly. But everything that that our
conservators have done can be reversed. And it's
important work, we think. And it's it's These
flags are a tangible link to our past. And it's
why we visit battlefields. It's why we go to
museums and the libraries. And to see these flags
in the flash, so to speak, really has a profound
impact on everyone that goes in to see the collection.
They're living history. And I wanted to go to
next is talk to us about the the efforts to get
this history out to whether it's you know, grade
school, high school, college kids or online.
How do you move this forward so more folks know
about this history? Sure, you know, a lot of
it is kind invitations like you've extended to
me to come on this podcast. I'm out everywhere.
Anywhere I can wrangle an invitation to speak
about this collection. That's Civil War round
tables, schools, genealogical organizations.
The collection is accessible. I want to point
that out if there are folks in your audience
that would like to see the battle flags in person.
contact me. I'm pretty easy to connect with through
our website. We're really pushing to get more
information out through our website. Also, I
include updates on different things that we've
been involved in. But I had the incredible honor
last year to speak at Gettysburg as a part of
the Gettysburg Foundation and their sacred trust
talks. And that's gone out on their website.
So you can actually, you know, click on that
and watch me talking about the Michigan flags
that saw service at Gettysburg and the three
days of battle there. So it's really just doing
everything we can to outreach. As most famously
said, thank God for Michigan, right? Yes, yes.
But it highlights, because this isn't really
a state -funded project, the limitation on dollars
limits kind of what you can do, including you
know, getting 240 battle flags appropriately
photographed and on a website for review with
histories. That's all hopefully coming in the
future, but it takes money to do it. It does.
And, you know, I've been very fortunate. I worked
for the Michigan State Capitol Commission. And
they've been very supportive of our efforts and
they consider this collection as we do a very
important state collection. So they've actually
we have a number of staff that are able to work
in mostly part time on the project, but most
of our work as much as we can do is being done
in house. And that's why part of why I was so
keen on. being able to have a conservation lab
in our new facility and to have some of our staff
trained in that work, to be able to conduct that
on site saves the project considerable amounts
of money. Just to give your audience an idea
of how much professional flag conservation costs,
our conservator who is nationally recognized,
this is the company that consulted with the Smithsonian
on the work that you saw of the Fort McHenry
flag, the flag that the national anthem was written
about. This is the company that conserved the
two Mount Suribachi flags that flew at Iwo Jima,
the very famous Marine Corps monument at Arlington
that's depicted there with the flag raising.
They were the consultant on the Abraham Lincoln
assassination garments. So this company is very
internationally known for their work. They charge
a fairly modest rate, I think, of $100 an hour
for the work that they do on battle flags I take
to them. The last flag I took out to them, they
estimated was 600 hours of work. So I went into
history for a reason. I'm not a math person,
but that's pretty simple math. It's substantial
amounts of money that can be spent and rightfully
so to care for this collection So to be able
to do it in -house our staff is just finishing
work on their fifth flag So to be able to do
it here at the Capitol with trained staff is
a really a huge coup for us Well, you have another
project coming up that I would be remiss not
to talk about it that again if you go to the
website which is mscbattleflags .org. You can
learn some more about this. And we're talking
to Matt Van Acker, who is the director and curator
of the State of Michigan Save the Flags Project.
But you have a film coming out later here in
2025, I believe. Tell us a little bit about it.
Yeah, we do. So our project started in 1990.
So we've been going for about 35 years now and
trying to care for this collection. And we thought
it would be important to actually document some
of the history of the project and to share this
story of the battle flags with the general public.
So we are working with a really wonderful producer,
Bradley Egan, who owns Motion Possible right
here out of Michigan, out in our own Kalamazoo,
Michigan. And he've spent the last two years
working on this production for us. So it's a
history of the project, but it's a history. abbreviated
history. It's a half hour film on some of the
stories of the men who fought and died beneath
these flags. It includes actual footage of the
battlefield. So we've been out filming at Gettysburg
and Antietam and Chickamauga and at Stones River
and at Appomattox Courthouse in Petersburg. We
have replica battle flags with reenactors who
are carrying them. portraying color bearers as
they would have carried the colors during the
war. So I think it's, of course, a number of
interviews, short interviews with people involved
in the project. Well, I saw the trailer and the
film production is really great. I mean, it is.
something one will want to see. Will it ultimately
be on the website or displayed at the hall? What's
the... Both, both. And I'm really glad you asked
that too, Jim. Yeah, we'll make it available
on our Flat Battle Flag website so people can
click on it as they can. The short... teaser
that's that's up right now. But I have a biased
opinion because the producer is a dear friend
of mine. But his work is exceptional. And I'm
really glad to hear you confirm that. Yeah, no,
I watched it and said, Okay, well, we've got
to talk about this. Very, very interesting. Matt.
If folks want to know more information, if they
want to help out, so maybe they want to adopt
the flag, what would you tell them to do? Oh,
have them connect with me through our website.
My contact information is all there. Email, phone
number, connect. We'll talk and I can share the
collection. And as I mentioned earlier, even
if folks aren't interested in supporting it financially,
these flags belong. to the veterans. They belong,
in this case, to the people of the state of Michigan.
And I'm really committed to access. I want people
to be able to see this collection and be moved
by their stories. I would say all of these flags
could talk what incredible stories of undaunted
courage they would tell. So I consider myself
as a little bit of a spokesperson for them in
my small role here to try to be an advocate for
them and to get their voices heard. Well, that's
a great place to leave it. And Matt, I appreciate
the time that you've given to Veterans Radio
today to shed some light on this important project
here in the state of Michigan and projects similar
to this all around the nation. Thank you, Jim.
It was my pleasure. And I want to thank everybody
for listening to Veterans Radio today. I am Jim
Fossone. It's been a pleasure to be your host.
I'm a Veterans disability lawyer at Legal Help
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