WEBVTT 00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:09.060 All across America and around the world, this 00:00:09.060 --> 00:00:15.160 is Veterans Radio. This is Veterans Radio. Good 00:00:15.160 --> 00:00:18.600 day. I'm Jim Fossone. I'm the Officer of the 00:00:18.600 --> 00:00:20.699 Deck today here on Veterans Radio and thanks 00:00:20.699 --> 00:00:23.469 for joining us. We've got some interesting stories 00:00:23.469 --> 00:00:25.649 for you. We always want to remind you you can 00:00:25.649 --> 00:00:28.750 find more about Veterans Radio at its Facebook 00:00:28.750 --> 00:00:32.429 site or at the web, veteransradio .org, where 00:00:32.429 --> 00:00:35.270 we're on the web 24 -7. You can find a lot of 00:00:35.270 --> 00:00:38.310 our podcasts there as well. We post new ones 00:00:38.310 --> 00:00:42.490 every Tuesday, so you can get a new story, a 00:00:42.490 --> 00:00:45.229 new interview, something you didn't know before 00:00:45.229 --> 00:00:49.219 by going to VeteransRadio .org. 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It provides water 00:01:38.760 --> 00:01:42.019 damage remediation, flood water removal, fire 00:01:42.019 --> 00:01:45.840 and smoke damage remediation, mold removal, biohazard 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:50.879 cleanup. It also has a focus on veteran franchisees. 00:01:51.319 --> 00:01:54.359 You can learn more about them by going to PuroClean 00:01:54.359 --> 00:01:58.200 .com. We just want to remind you that veterans 00:01:58.200 --> 00:02:03.280 radio podcasts are available on all your favorite 00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:07.319 streaming platforms including RSS .com, Apple 00:02:07.319 --> 00:02:12.199 Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Podcasts, by Heart 00:02:12.199 --> 00:02:16.280 Radio and Reeves Across America Radio. So wherever 00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:20.340 you are, you can find us. We were recently identified 00:02:20.340 --> 00:02:25.439 as in the 15th spot, if you will, of the top 00:02:25.439 --> 00:02:30.939 100 veteran -centric podcasts by Feet Spot. So 00:02:30.939 --> 00:02:34.240 really pretty proud of being in the top 15. So 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:38.400 listen in wherever you're at to veteransradio 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:42.409 .org and its podcasts. We want to welcome to 00:02:42.409 --> 00:02:46.650 Veterans Radio today, Matt Van Ocker. He is the 00:02:46.650 --> 00:02:50.590 director and curator of the Save the Flags Project 00:02:50.590 --> 00:02:53.650 in the state of Michigan. Matt, welcome to Veterans 00:02:53.650 --> 00:02:56.449 Radio. Oh, thank you, Jim. I'm honored to be 00:02:56.449 --> 00:02:59.509 invited. Well, this is something I stumbled upon, 00:02:59.509 --> 00:03:02.189 and these are always the best stories. It's like, 00:03:02.289 --> 00:03:07.050 I didn't know that. So tell us about the Save 00:03:07.050 --> 00:03:10.270 the Flag Project here in the state of Michigan. 00:03:10.539 --> 00:03:14.120 So our project started, Jim, about 30 years ago 00:03:14.120 --> 00:03:17.759 as a part of the restoration of the State Capitol 00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:21.699 here in Lansing, where I work. The battle flags, 00:03:21.939 --> 00:03:26.180 240 of them had been housed in the Capitol since 00:03:26.180 --> 00:03:28.560 shortly after its construction, at least the 00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:32.080 Civil War flags. And then the latter war flags 00:03:32.080 --> 00:03:34.419 from the Spanish -American War and World War 00:03:34.419 --> 00:03:37.750 I. joined the collection after those conflicts. 00:03:38.069 --> 00:03:40.689 But they've been housed predominantly in the 00:03:40.689 --> 00:03:42.990 rotunda and in the east wing of the building 00:03:42.990 --> 00:03:46.590 on the first floor. And the thought originally 00:03:46.590 --> 00:03:50.349 was to encapsulate the cases to protect those 00:03:50.349 --> 00:03:53.919 flags during the dust and dirt. confusion of 00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:57.180 the restoration of the Capitol, but we started 00:03:57.180 --> 00:03:59.719 looking into the collection more thoroughly and 00:03:59.719 --> 00:04:02.800 we realized that we were in real danger of losing 00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:05.699 the entire collection if something wasn't done 00:04:05.699 --> 00:04:10.020 and done fairly quickly to arrest their deterioration. 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:15.000 The flags were exposed to fluctuating temperature 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:19.240 and humidity, almost constant natural and artificial 00:04:19.240 --> 00:04:22.500 light. Not to mention the fact that for years 00:04:22.500 --> 00:04:26.060 the designated smoking area in the state capitol 00:04:26.060 --> 00:04:29.519 was in fact the rotunda literally right beside 00:04:29.519 --> 00:04:33.120 our most prized state's possession of historic 00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:37.670 artifacts. So we formed a task force as state 00:04:37.670 --> 00:04:39.870 governments are wanting to do when they're faced 00:04:39.870 --> 00:04:42.250 with the dilemma. What's the first thing you 00:04:42.250 --> 00:04:44.910 do? You form a committee to try to figure out. 00:04:44.930 --> 00:04:46.310 And then you issue a report, right? Then you've 00:04:46.310 --> 00:04:49.410 got to issue a report. Exactly. So we formed 00:04:49.410 --> 00:04:53.240 the Save the Flags Task Force. very inclusive 00:04:53.240 --> 00:04:56.920 task force, reenactors, veterans, historians, 00:04:57.399 --> 00:05:00.379 state museum personnel, or state and capital 00:05:00.379 --> 00:05:03.899 personnel and museum personnel. We hired one 00:05:03.899 --> 00:05:06.740 of the nation's leading battle flag conservators 00:05:06.740 --> 00:05:09.740 to come in and evaluate our collection. And it 00:05:09.740 --> 00:05:12.800 was basically based on that evaluation that the 00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:15.959 decision was made. to remove the flags from the 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:18.779 building. We have a wonderful partnership with 00:05:18.779 --> 00:05:22.019 our friends at the State Historical Center and 00:05:22.019 --> 00:05:24.560 the State Historical Museum down the street from 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:27.779 the Capitol. They provided a wonderful state 00:05:27.779 --> 00:05:31.500 of the art archival storage space. The flags 00:05:31.500 --> 00:05:35.819 were all very carefully removed. from their entombed 00:05:35.819 --> 00:05:39.079 glass cases at the Capitol, and were carefully 00:05:39.079 --> 00:05:41.959 transferred over to this archival space at the 00:05:41.959 --> 00:05:45.910 museum, where we can control. basically the elements 00:05:45.910 --> 00:05:48.769 of their destruction, we can control humidity 00:05:48.769 --> 00:05:52.589 and temperature and light and gravity. And most 00:05:52.589 --> 00:05:55.689 of the infantry flags measured six by six and 00:05:55.689 --> 00:05:59.529 a half foot. And the weight of the flags themselves 00:05:59.529 --> 00:06:02.629 was kind of contributing to their own deterioration. 00:06:02.949 --> 00:06:06.000 So each of the flags is laid on an asset -free 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:09.579 pallet over at this special archival storage 00:06:09.579 --> 00:06:13.319 space. And so that was our first step in conserving 00:06:13.319 --> 00:06:16.600 them. For those who may not know what a battle 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:22.199 flag is, and you've got 240 of them. Some of 00:06:22.199 --> 00:06:24.420 them are now, what, 200 years old or something. 00:06:26.300 --> 00:06:29.300 Tell us what a battle flag is. Yeah, I'm really, 00:06:29.300 --> 00:06:34.540 really glad you asked. We'll kind of split the 00:06:34.540 --> 00:06:39.839 collection into categories, if you will. Out 00:06:39.839 --> 00:06:43.339 of the 240 flags in our collection, the bulk 00:06:43.339 --> 00:06:47.600 of them, 160. were carried by Michigan soldiers 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:51.319 on the battlefields of the Civil War. The latter 00:06:51.319 --> 00:06:54.220 war flags, the Spanish -American War, World War 00:06:54.220 --> 00:06:56.959 I flags, and we actually have a flag that was 00:06:56.959 --> 00:07:00.319 used in Vietnam now also, those were used very 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:02.939 differently. They tended to be camp flags, so 00:07:02.939 --> 00:07:06.160 they marked the position of the officers of the 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:09.180 regiment, if you will, whereas the Civil War 00:07:09.180 --> 00:07:13.720 flags saw active duty on the battlefields. Most 00:07:13.720 --> 00:07:16.399 of your listeners, I'm sure are familiar with 00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:19.939 Napoleonic tactics, but this is what was used 00:07:19.939 --> 00:07:22.819 during the Civil War. And to put it bluntly, 00:07:22.860 --> 00:07:25.439 there's no easy way of stating this lines of 00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:28.579 our men marching against other lines of our men, 00:07:29.100 --> 00:07:31.139 trying to get close enough to kill each other. 00:07:31.439 --> 00:07:34.560 The way you kept your proper alignment on the 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:37.680 battlefield was by being with what they affectionately 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:40.790 referred to as the colors. by being with the 00:07:40.790 --> 00:07:43.449 regimental standards. As those flags advanced, 00:07:43.649 --> 00:07:46.829 the regiment would literally rally on them, inform 00:07:46.829 --> 00:07:50.029 on them as they went back and retreat, the regiment 00:07:50.029 --> 00:07:53.069 would go with them. If that color bearer, the 00:07:53.069 --> 00:07:55.709 man who was assigned the duty or volunteered 00:07:55.709 --> 00:07:59.069 for the duty to carry the flag, planted his staff 00:07:59.069 --> 00:08:02.230 in the ground, every man of the regiment that 00:08:02.230 --> 00:08:04.629 knew that that was a signal to them to fight 00:08:04.629 --> 00:08:08.350 to the last man necessary to both defend their 00:08:08.350 --> 00:08:12.170 regimental flag, but also to defend their regiment's 00:08:12.170 --> 00:08:16.470 position on the battlefield. Please. In a world 00:08:16.470 --> 00:08:20.769 where there's now instant communication, it's 00:08:20.769 --> 00:08:24.449 hard to think back to a time when I needed to 00:08:24.449 --> 00:08:27.509 see that flag waving to know where my guys were 00:08:27.509 --> 00:08:30.149 and what I was supposed to do. But that was that 00:08:30.149 --> 00:08:32.700 was a way of communicating. that really was, 00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:34.700 you know, it's not like they could pull out their 00:08:34.700 --> 00:08:37.740 cell phones and text each other and say, hey, 00:08:37.820 --> 00:08:39.919 we're here now, but we're headed over to that 00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:43.100 clump of trees next. And so the battle flags 00:08:43.100 --> 00:08:46.399 were hugely important form of communication. 00:08:47.179 --> 00:08:51.320 They also stood as a symbol. for what the men 00:08:51.320 --> 00:08:54.539 were fighting for, to encourage the esprit de 00:08:54.539 --> 00:08:58.519 corps that these men had for their regimental 00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:02.600 flags. And the Confederates, of course, recognize 00:09:02.600 --> 00:09:06.019 what is the quickest and surest way of confusing 00:09:06.019 --> 00:09:10.019 and disheartening the Union troops. You kill 00:09:10.019 --> 00:09:13.360 the man who's carrying the flag. You drop that 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:16.399 enemy color. And if that happens, or even better 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:19.080 yet, you're able to capture that Union flag, 00:09:19.539 --> 00:09:22.960 you'll have a whole regiment literally in disarray. 00:09:23.879 --> 00:09:27.700 So the flags become the focal point of combat, 00:09:27.700 --> 00:09:30.559 and it becomes, if you will, a very deadly game 00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:33.679 of capture the flag, because the Union troops, 00:09:34.100 --> 00:09:37.600 Michigan troops recognize in turn the surest 00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:40.480 way to dishearten the Confederate forces are 00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:44.320 to capture their flags. There's 69 men from Michigan 00:09:44.320 --> 00:09:47.279 are awarded the Medal of Honor for action during 00:09:47.279 --> 00:09:50.559 the Civil War, and the overwhelming majority 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:53.980 received those medals due to action that took 00:09:53.980 --> 00:09:58.159 place defending colors or in capturing Confederate 00:09:58.159 --> 00:10:02.860 flags. These flags then are in the midst of the 00:10:02.860 --> 00:10:08.100 battle, and I assume that their condition is 00:10:08.100 --> 00:10:11.409 bullet -ridden, bayonet -ridden, tattered from 00:10:11.409 --> 00:10:16.289 the wind, everything you can think of. How is 00:10:16.289 --> 00:10:21.289 it that 200 years ago, they didn't just all get 00:10:21.289 --> 00:10:26.929 put on the scrap key? Yeah, so, again, the men 00:10:26.929 --> 00:10:30.429 have an incredible emotional attachment to their 00:10:30.429 --> 00:10:33.370 colors because of the action that took place 00:10:33.370 --> 00:10:37.120 around them, literally. They witnessed the deaths 00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:39.779 of friends who were carrying the colors. As you 00:10:39.779 --> 00:10:43.759 mentioned, they're bullet -ridden, blood -stained. 00:10:43.980 --> 00:10:46.480 Many of our flags have the blood of the men who 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:49.500 died defending them on the battlefields of the 00:10:49.500 --> 00:10:52.820 war. 24th, Michigan, we have their Gettysburg 00:10:52.820 --> 00:10:56.700 flag. They suffered 80 % casualties on the first 00:10:56.700 --> 00:11:01.120 day of combat at Gettysburg on July 1st of 63. 00:11:01.980 --> 00:11:04.799 Nine men were killed or mortally wounded carrying 00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:08.799 that flag in combat at that single battle. That 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:11.779 flag is in our collection. You can look to it 00:11:11.779 --> 00:11:14.879 and see the bloodstains. So the flags, to answer 00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:19.519 your question, become emotionally very important 00:11:19.519 --> 00:11:22.740 to the men. And so when the war ends a year after 00:11:22.740 --> 00:11:26.960 the end of the war in 1866, the regiments are 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:30.120 ordered by the state of Michigan to return those 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:33.629 colors. to the care of the state grand ceremony 00:11:33.629 --> 00:11:38.250 in Detroit and the campus marshes 75 ,000 citizens 00:11:38.250 --> 00:11:41.370 attended this event it was a tenth of this a 00:11:41.370 --> 00:11:44.110 tenth of the state's population that traveled 00:11:44.110 --> 00:11:46.970 to Detroit to see our veterans bring their beloved 00:11:46.970 --> 00:11:50.289 battle flags back and and to formally turn them 00:11:50.289 --> 00:11:52.990 over to the state so that's how we get the bulk 00:11:52.990 --> 00:11:55.889 of the collection and how they weren't just thrown 00:11:55.889 --> 00:11:58.870 on the scrap heap you know as you mentioned but 00:11:58.870 --> 00:12:01.929 we're Really just a very important part of the 00:12:01.929 --> 00:12:05.210 regiment's history. These are really sacred items. 00:12:05.570 --> 00:12:08.509 The reason they existed and they were turned 00:12:08.509 --> 00:12:14.909 in in such a massive ceremony is the men, the 00:12:14.909 --> 00:12:17.230 veterans, these were sacred items, weren't they? 00:12:17.419 --> 00:12:19.960 They really were. You know, I was able to honor 00:12:19.960 --> 00:12:24.039 a group of active duty Michigan Guard troops 00:12:24.039 --> 00:12:28.299 at their armory in Wyoming a few years back for 00:12:28.299 --> 00:12:32.019 a donation they had made to our collection, a 00:12:32.019 --> 00:12:34.320 financial donation. The state doesn't really 00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:36.659 fund the project, so this is where I put the 00:12:36.659 --> 00:12:40.259 plug in. We take donations from individuals, 00:12:40.620 --> 00:12:43.460 families, organizations to help with our work 00:12:43.460 --> 00:12:45.720 with caring for them and their conservation, 00:12:46.039 --> 00:12:49.899 but they They were also they added a change of 00:12:49.899 --> 00:12:52.860 command ceremony as a part of me being out there. 00:12:53.220 --> 00:12:56.580 And they showed the same reverence for their 00:12:56.580 --> 00:13:00.340 regimental colors at that command ceremony that 00:13:00.340 --> 00:13:03.960 these boys did, you know, 160 plus years ago, 00:13:03.960 --> 00:13:06.519 you know, after the end of the Civil War. So 00:13:06.519 --> 00:13:10.419 it's a connection that our modern military and 00:13:10.419 --> 00:13:13.240 service people still have to their literally 00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:16.809 their beloved unit flags. Well, you mentioned 00:13:16.809 --> 00:13:19.549 it, so I'll bring it up now and we'll get to 00:13:19.549 --> 00:13:22.789 some more questions I have. But I wanted to point 00:13:22.789 --> 00:13:28.149 out to people that, yeah, this is a labor of 00:13:28.149 --> 00:13:31.490 love on these sacred battle flags, but it's got 00:13:31.490 --> 00:13:34.909 to be funded somehow. And you can go to Michigan 00:13:34.909 --> 00:13:40.129 Battle Flags, mscbattleflags .org. You'll find 00:13:40.129 --> 00:13:42.809 a lot of information, but you can also find out 00:13:42.830 --> 00:13:45.570 how to adopt a flag. Explain that to me. Oh, 00:13:45.570 --> 00:13:47.529 thank you, Jim. I appreciate you bringing that 00:13:47.529 --> 00:13:50.870 up, too. So early on, we were challenged with 00:13:50.870 --> 00:13:53.990 fundraising. The state doesn't fund the project. 00:13:54.210 --> 00:13:58.370 We have received occasionally some small appropriations 00:13:58.370 --> 00:14:00.889 from the legislature, but the bulk of the money 00:14:00.889 --> 00:14:04.350 we spend in caring for the collection and most 00:14:04.350 --> 00:14:07.470 of our flags that have been conserved thus far, 00:14:07.570 --> 00:14:10.370 we've had to have done out state. one of the 00:14:10.370 --> 00:14:13.009 nation's leading battlefly conservators in West 00:14:13.009 --> 00:14:16.009 Virginia. So my wife and I literally drive them 00:14:16.009 --> 00:14:19.169 out to West Virginia to this conservation firm 00:14:19.169 --> 00:14:22.129 that stabilizes them. And then, you know, we 00:14:22.129 --> 00:14:26.110 bring it back. But we figured the best way of 00:14:26.110 --> 00:14:28.389 getting people involved would be at the grassroots 00:14:28.389 --> 00:14:34.970 level. So for $1 ,000, it's kind of a Oh, Number 00:14:34.970 --> 00:14:37.950 we sort of pulled out of the thin air for a thousand 00:14:37.950 --> 00:14:40.870 dollars groups or families or individuals can 00:14:40.870 --> 00:14:43.929 adopt a flag in our collection They don't get 00:14:43.929 --> 00:14:47.070 to take the flag home with them But in name only 00:14:47.070 --> 00:14:49.750 they adopt the flag and then we honor them with 00:14:49.750 --> 00:14:53.529 a ceremony Here at the Capitol or at the museum 00:14:53.529 --> 00:14:55.509 where they can actually see the battle flags 00:14:55.509 --> 00:14:58.169 or I'll take the show on the road and go out 00:14:58.169 --> 00:15:00.889 to any parts of Michigan to honor groups that 00:15:00.889 --> 00:15:04.350 have donated money and then with that money we 00:15:04.350 --> 00:15:08.289 pay to have the flag stabilized. I will put another 00:15:08.289 --> 00:15:11.210 plug in for our project though. Three years ago, 00:15:11.750 --> 00:15:14.730 we opened a wonderful Heritage Hall Welcome Center 00:15:14.730 --> 00:15:18.169 at the State Capitol, an underground facility. 00:15:18.690 --> 00:15:21.610 As a part of that, we were able to have built 00:15:21.610 --> 00:15:25.629 a conservation lab. And I've also been able since 00:15:25.629 --> 00:15:28.799 then to have two of our staff trained. with the 00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:31.580 same company that does our conservation work. 00:15:31.980 --> 00:15:34.919 So for the first time ever in 30 year history 00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:38.279 of this Save the Flags project, we're actually 00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:41.379 conducting onsite conservation also right here 00:15:41.379 --> 00:15:44.480 in the Capitol. We have a really neat viewing 00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:46.840 window where people that are coming through Heritage 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:49.639 Hall. can actually look through the window and 00:15:49.639 --> 00:15:52.460 see one of our battle flags. And if the timing 00:15:52.460 --> 00:15:55.019 is appropriate, they can actually see some of 00:15:55.019 --> 00:15:59.279 our staff stabilizing that flag. So that's a 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:02.620 really proud moment for me to report. It is really 00:16:02.620 --> 00:16:05.120 interesting. I've been at the Smithsonian and 00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:09.919 when they were restoring some of the flags there 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:13.279 and huge ones and they're hanging upside down 00:16:13.279 --> 00:16:15.820 to get the stitches right in this. But explain 00:16:15.820 --> 00:16:18.860 to us then what restoration and conservation 00:16:18.860 --> 00:16:21.980 needs. You're not putting new fabric on this 00:16:21.980 --> 00:16:24.899 thing or dying it. Tell us what you do. We're 00:16:24.899 --> 00:16:30.639 not. To some people it's a very obvious difference 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:33.539 between the two terms, but for others it's more 00:16:33.539 --> 00:16:37.299 of a subtle difference. The two terms conservation 00:16:37.299 --> 00:16:40.879 and restoration tend to be used pretty interchangeably, 00:16:41.259 --> 00:16:45.620 but they're really very two distinct terms. So 00:16:45.620 --> 00:16:48.220 restoration, as you mentioned, we'd be sewing 00:16:48.220 --> 00:16:51.440 new fabric onto these old flags, we'd be sewing 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:54.519 up the bullet holes, we'd be washing off the 00:16:54.519 --> 00:16:57.240 blood stains, and we would attempt to try to 00:16:57.240 --> 00:17:00.039 make that flag look like it did when it was brand 00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:03.480 new. first presented to the regiment, what we 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:06.940 do is stabilize. We can serve flags as is. We 00:17:06.940 --> 00:17:10.339 do not want to lose that very important part 00:17:10.339 --> 00:17:14.220 of that flag's history. Were we to restore a 00:17:14.220 --> 00:17:17.680 flag, in my mind, that would be a sacrilege to 00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:20.970 the flag and to the... the sacrifices that took 00:17:20.970 --> 00:17:23.589 place beneath it, the bullet holes and the blood 00:17:23.589 --> 00:17:27.049 stains and the saber slashes and the rips on 00:17:27.049 --> 00:17:30.569 the fly end and the hand stitching that the soldiers 00:17:30.569 --> 00:17:33.730 did to desperately try to keep the flags intact 00:17:33.730 --> 00:17:37.309 on the battlefield. Those are all such very important 00:17:37.309 --> 00:17:40.809 parts of that flag's history. Now, most of our 00:17:40.809 --> 00:17:44.900 Civil War flags were netted. in the 1960s in 00:17:44.900 --> 00:17:48.039 an ill -fated attempt to stabilize and conserve 00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:50.539 them. And they were actually sent out to a lady 00:17:50.539 --> 00:17:53.940 in New York who sewed them between dyed layers 00:17:53.940 --> 00:17:57.400 of net through her sewing machine, literally 00:17:57.400 --> 00:18:00.440 with a zigzag pattern, literally putting tens 00:18:00.440 --> 00:18:03.380 of thousands of holes in those battle flags. 00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:08.000 That netting is deteriorating. It's degrading, 00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:11.140 for one thing. And the danger is that it's becoming 00:18:11.140 --> 00:18:14.119 embedded into the original silk. Most of the 00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:16.960 original flags are made of silk. It was lightweight 00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:21.160 but durable. So our goal is to remove the netting. 00:18:21.299 --> 00:18:23.960 That means our conservators, whether here at 00:18:23.960 --> 00:18:27.539 Heritage Hall or out in West Virginia, they have 00:18:27.539 --> 00:18:31.279 to snip each individual stitch with surgeon scissors. 00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:35.099 Each stitch is carefully removed with forceps. 00:18:36.140 --> 00:18:39.980 that releases the 60s netting, which we get off. 00:18:40.420 --> 00:18:43.680 The flags are humidified and relaxed. The fabric 00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:47.299 is relaxed and straightened out, and then re 00:18:47.299 --> 00:18:50.839 -encapsulated between layers of modern material. 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:53.920 And we don't sew them through the sewing machine. 00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:56.779 They're all hand sewn, so we're not damaging 00:18:56.779 --> 00:19:00.019 the actual artifact. The work that was done in 00:19:00.019 --> 00:19:03.240 the 60s, even though it was well intended, And 00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:05.599 we were not the only state that did this. West 00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:07.960 Point did it to their collection. A number of 00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:10.960 other states did this too. you know, as the state 00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:13.059 and the country was commemorating the centennial 00:19:13.059 --> 00:19:15.759 of the war, they were trying to do a good thing, 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:18.819 you know, for their flag collections. But what 00:19:18.819 --> 00:19:22.200 we do now is we don't damage the artifact. That's 00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:25.279 the golden rule on conservation. Do nothing to 00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:28.339 an artifact that can't be reversed someday. So 00:19:28.339 --> 00:19:31.740 all the work we're doing now can be reversed. 00:19:31.960 --> 00:19:35.039 Who's to say 50 years from now, they don't say, 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:38.549 God, what was that? that idiot Van Acker thinking, 00:19:38.690 --> 00:19:43.490 you know. Exactly. But everything that that our 00:19:43.490 --> 00:19:47.849 conservators have done can be reversed. And it's 00:19:47.849 --> 00:19:50.990 important work, we think. And it's it's These 00:19:50.990 --> 00:19:54.910 flags are a tangible link to our past. And it's 00:19:54.910 --> 00:19:57.710 why we visit battlefields. It's why we go to 00:19:57.710 --> 00:20:02.289 museums and the libraries. And to see these flags 00:20:02.289 --> 00:20:06.490 in the flash, so to speak, really has a profound 00:20:06.490 --> 00:20:09.849 impact on everyone that goes in to see the collection. 00:20:10.230 --> 00:20:13.529 They're living history. And I wanted to go to 00:20:13.529 --> 00:20:17.450 next is talk to us about the the efforts to get 00:20:17.450 --> 00:20:20.900 this history out to whether it's you know, grade 00:20:20.900 --> 00:20:23.599 school, high school, college kids or online. 00:20:23.940 --> 00:20:28.440 How do you move this forward so more folks know 00:20:28.440 --> 00:20:31.140 about this history? Sure, you know, a lot of 00:20:31.140 --> 00:20:34.059 it is kind invitations like you've extended to 00:20:34.059 --> 00:20:39.160 me to come on this podcast. I'm out everywhere. 00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:42.259 Anywhere I can wrangle an invitation to speak 00:20:42.259 --> 00:20:44.759 about this collection. That's Civil War round 00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:49.480 tables, schools, genealogical organizations. 00:20:50.420 --> 00:20:52.799 The collection is accessible. I want to point 00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:55.319 that out if there are folks in your audience 00:20:55.319 --> 00:20:58.559 that would like to see the battle flags in person. 00:20:59.339 --> 00:21:02.319 contact me. I'm pretty easy to connect with through 00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:05.640 our website. We're really pushing to get more 00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:09.799 information out through our website. Also, I 00:21:09.799 --> 00:21:12.059 include updates on different things that we've 00:21:12.059 --> 00:21:16.000 been involved in. But I had the incredible honor 00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:19.099 last year to speak at Gettysburg as a part of 00:21:19.099 --> 00:21:22.440 the Gettysburg Foundation and their sacred trust 00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:26.019 talks. And that's gone out on their website. 00:21:26.019 --> 00:21:28.759 So you can actually, you know, click on that 00:21:28.619 --> 00:21:31.720 and watch me talking about the Michigan flags 00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:34.259 that saw service at Gettysburg and the three 00:21:34.259 --> 00:21:37.359 days of battle there. So it's really just doing 00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:41.519 everything we can to outreach. As most famously 00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:44.680 said, thank God for Michigan, right? Yes, yes. 00:21:45.099 --> 00:21:48.960 But it highlights, because this isn't really 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:53.380 a state -funded project, the limitation on dollars 00:21:53.380 --> 00:21:57.390 limits kind of what you can do, including you 00:21:57.390 --> 00:22:01.630 know, getting 240 battle flags appropriately 00:22:01.630 --> 00:22:04.509 photographed and on a website for review with 00:22:04.509 --> 00:22:07.750 histories. That's all hopefully coming in the 00:22:07.750 --> 00:22:10.049 future, but it takes money to do it. It does. 00:22:10.230 --> 00:22:12.170 And, you know, I've been very fortunate. I worked 00:22:12.170 --> 00:22:15.450 for the Michigan State Capitol Commission. And 00:22:15.450 --> 00:22:18.609 they've been very supportive of our efforts and 00:22:18.609 --> 00:22:21.710 they consider this collection as we do a very 00:22:21.710 --> 00:22:25.529 important state collection. So they've actually 00:22:25.529 --> 00:22:28.809 we have a number of staff that are able to work 00:22:28.809 --> 00:22:32.869 in mostly part time on the project, but most 00:22:32.869 --> 00:22:35.289 of our work as much as we can do is being done 00:22:35.289 --> 00:22:38.470 in house. And that's why part of why I was so 00:22:38.470 --> 00:22:41.990 keen on. being able to have a conservation lab 00:22:41.990 --> 00:22:45.089 in our new facility and to have some of our staff 00:22:45.089 --> 00:22:48.250 trained in that work, to be able to conduct that 00:22:48.250 --> 00:22:52.089 on site saves the project considerable amounts 00:22:52.089 --> 00:22:55.130 of money. Just to give your audience an idea 00:22:55.130 --> 00:22:58.890 of how much professional flag conservation costs, 00:22:59.069 --> 00:23:02.009 our conservator who is nationally recognized, 00:23:02.109 --> 00:23:06.380 this is the company that consulted with the Smithsonian 00:23:06.380 --> 00:23:09.680 on the work that you saw of the Fort McHenry 00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:12.180 flag, the flag that the national anthem was written 00:23:12.180 --> 00:23:15.440 about. This is the company that conserved the 00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:19.180 two Mount Suribachi flags that flew at Iwo Jima, 00:23:19.319 --> 00:23:23.660 the very famous Marine Corps monument at Arlington 00:23:23.660 --> 00:23:25.859 that's depicted there with the flag raising. 00:23:26.220 --> 00:23:28.200 They were the consultant on the Abraham Lincoln 00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:32.299 assassination garments. So this company is very 00:23:32.299 --> 00:23:35.410 internationally known for their work. They charge 00:23:35.410 --> 00:23:39.130 a fairly modest rate, I think, of $100 an hour 00:23:39.130 --> 00:23:42.269 for the work that they do on battle flags I take 00:23:42.269 --> 00:23:45.950 to them. The last flag I took out to them, they 00:23:45.950 --> 00:23:51.210 estimated was 600 hours of work. So I went into 00:23:51.210 --> 00:23:53.529 history for a reason. I'm not a math person, 00:23:53.609 --> 00:23:57.460 but that's pretty simple math. It's substantial 00:23:57.460 --> 00:24:00.539 amounts of money that can be spent and rightfully 00:24:00.539 --> 00:24:03.920 so to care for this collection So to be able 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:06.859 to do it in -house our staff is just finishing 00:24:06.859 --> 00:24:10.559 work on their fifth flag So to be able to do 00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:13.599 it here at the Capitol with trained staff is 00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:18.220 a really a huge coup for us Well, you have another 00:24:18.220 --> 00:24:21.180 project coming up that I would be remiss not 00:24:21.180 --> 00:24:23.740 to talk about it that again if you go to the 00:24:23.740 --> 00:24:29.339 website which is mscbattleflags .org. You can 00:24:29.339 --> 00:24:32.180 learn some more about this. And we're talking 00:24:32.180 --> 00:24:35.819 to Matt Van Acker, who is the director and curator 00:24:35.819 --> 00:24:40.339 of the State of Michigan Save the Flags Project. 00:24:41.059 --> 00:24:45.940 But you have a film coming out later here in 00:24:45.940 --> 00:24:49.299 2025, I believe. Tell us a little bit about it. 00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:53.339 Yeah, we do. So our project started in 1990. 00:24:53.559 --> 00:24:57.799 So we've been going for about 35 years now and 00:24:57.799 --> 00:25:00.619 trying to care for this collection. And we thought 00:25:00.619 --> 00:25:03.680 it would be important to actually document some 00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:06.920 of the history of the project and to share this 00:25:06.920 --> 00:25:09.920 story of the battle flags with the general public. 00:25:10.299 --> 00:25:14.779 So we are working with a really wonderful producer, 00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:18.180 Bradley Egan, who owns Motion Possible right 00:25:18.180 --> 00:25:20.500 here out of Michigan, out in our own Kalamazoo, 00:25:20.500 --> 00:25:23.819 Michigan. And he've spent the last two years 00:25:23.819 --> 00:25:27.319 working on this production for us. So it's a 00:25:27.319 --> 00:25:32.299 history of the project, but it's a history. abbreviated 00:25:32.299 --> 00:25:36.079 history. It's a half hour film on some of the 00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:38.420 stories of the men who fought and died beneath 00:25:38.420 --> 00:25:42.000 these flags. It includes actual footage of the 00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:45.740 battlefield. So we've been out filming at Gettysburg 00:25:45.740 --> 00:25:50.539 and Antietam and Chickamauga and at Stones River 00:25:50.539 --> 00:25:55.440 and at Appomattox Courthouse in Petersburg. We 00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:58.940 have replica battle flags with reenactors who 00:25:58.940 --> 00:26:01.950 are carrying them. portraying color bearers as 00:26:01.950 --> 00:26:04.009 they would have carried the colors during the 00:26:04.009 --> 00:26:07.250 war. So I think it's, of course, a number of 00:26:07.250 --> 00:26:09.789 interviews, short interviews with people involved 00:26:09.789 --> 00:26:15.029 in the project. Well, I saw the trailer and the 00:26:15.029 --> 00:26:18.589 film production is really great. I mean, it is. 00:26:19.930 --> 00:26:23.430 something one will want to see. Will it ultimately 00:26:23.430 --> 00:26:28.049 be on the website or displayed at the hall? What's 00:26:28.049 --> 00:26:30.609 the... Both, both. And I'm really glad you asked 00:26:30.609 --> 00:26:33.069 that too, Jim. Yeah, we'll make it available 00:26:33.069 --> 00:26:36.349 on our Flat Battle Flag website so people can 00:26:36.349 --> 00:26:39.269 click on it as they can. The short... teaser 00:26:39.269 --> 00:26:42.829 that's that's up right now. But I have a biased 00:26:42.829 --> 00:26:45.329 opinion because the producer is a dear friend 00:26:45.329 --> 00:26:48.650 of mine. But his work is exceptional. And I'm 00:26:48.650 --> 00:26:51.549 really glad to hear you confirm that. Yeah, no, 00:26:51.750 --> 00:26:54.349 I watched it and said, Okay, well, we've got 00:26:54.349 --> 00:26:59.970 to talk about this. Very, very interesting. Matt. 00:27:00.890 --> 00:27:03.869 If folks want to know more information, if they 00:27:03.869 --> 00:27:05.569 want to help out, so maybe they want to adopt 00:27:05.569 --> 00:27:08.369 the flag, what would you tell them to do? Oh, 00:27:08.650 --> 00:27:10.630 have them connect with me through our website. 00:27:10.930 --> 00:27:14.369 My contact information is all there. Email, phone 00:27:14.369 --> 00:27:18.490 number, connect. We'll talk and I can share the 00:27:18.490 --> 00:27:21.009 collection. And as I mentioned earlier, even 00:27:21.009 --> 00:27:24.789 if folks aren't interested in supporting it financially, 00:27:25.049 --> 00:27:28.920 these flags belong. to the veterans. They belong, 00:27:29.019 --> 00:27:31.759 in this case, to the people of the state of Michigan. 00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:35.180 And I'm really committed to access. I want people 00:27:35.180 --> 00:27:38.359 to be able to see this collection and be moved 00:27:38.359 --> 00:27:42.230 by their stories. I would say all of these flags 00:27:42.230 --> 00:27:45.069 could talk what incredible stories of undaunted 00:27:45.069 --> 00:27:48.250 courage they would tell. So I consider myself 00:27:48.250 --> 00:27:51.690 as a little bit of a spokesperson for them in 00:27:51.690 --> 00:27:54.910 my small role here to try to be an advocate for 00:27:54.910 --> 00:27:58.930 them and to get their voices heard. Well, that's 00:27:58.930 --> 00:28:01.390 a great place to leave it. And Matt, I appreciate 00:28:01.390 --> 00:28:03.529 the time that you've given to Veterans Radio 00:28:03.529 --> 00:28:06.890 today to shed some light on this important project 00:28:06.890 --> 00:28:11.049 here in the state of Michigan and projects similar 00:28:11.049 --> 00:28:13.910 to this all around the nation. Thank you, Jim. 00:28:14.069 --> 00:28:16.930 It was my pleasure. And I want to thank everybody 00:28:16.930 --> 00:28:19.730 for listening to Veterans Radio today. I am Jim 00:28:19.730 --> 00:28:22.630 Fossone. It's been a pleasure to be your host. 00:28:22.730 --> 00:28:25.450 I'm a Veterans disability lawyer at Legal Help 00:28:25.450 --> 00:28:29.390 for Veterans, and you can reach us at 800 -693 00:28:29.390 --> 00:28:34.210 -4800 or legalhelpforveterans .com on the web. 00:28:34.509 --> 00:28:37.809 You can follow Veterans Radio on Facebook and 00:28:37.809 --> 00:28:40.849 listen to its podcasts and internet radio shows 00:28:40.849 --> 00:28:44.849 by visiting us at veteransradio .org. That's 00:28:44.849 --> 00:28:48.190 veteransradio .org. We would again want to thank 00:28:48.190 --> 00:28:51.329 our national sponsors, the National Veterans 00:28:51.329 --> 00:28:56.769 Business Development Council, nvbdc .org. Legal 00:28:56.769 --> 00:29:00.170 Help for Veterans, a veterans disability law 00:29:00.170 --> 00:29:05.240 firm with a national practice before The VA can 00:29:05.240 --> 00:29:08.940 help you on your claims and your appeals. 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