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So 00:02:30.939 --> 00:02:34.240 really pretty proud of being in the top 15. So 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:38.400 listen in wherever you're at to veteransradio 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:43.030 .org and its podcasts. We want to welcome to 00:02:43.030 --> 00:02:47.330 Veterans Radio today, historian, author, fellow, 00:02:48.389 --> 00:02:51.250 Quinn Chow, who's going to talk to us about the 00:02:51.250 --> 00:02:55.009 Pacific Atrocities Education Foundation out in 00:02:55.009 --> 00:02:56.930 California, although I think he's actually on 00:02:56.930 --> 00:02:59.569 the East Coast at this point. But Quinn, welcome 00:02:59.569 --> 00:03:03.729 to Veterans Radio. Hi. Thank you for having me 00:03:03.729 --> 00:03:07.949 on. Well, let me set this up a little bit. You 00:03:07.949 --> 00:03:12.560 are. as I mentioned, a historian and author specializing 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:15.379 in the history of global conflict and geopolitics 00:03:15.379 --> 00:03:20.879 in the Asia -Pacific region. You are a 2023 graduate 00:03:20.879 --> 00:03:24.460 summa cum laude from the University of Southern 00:03:24.460 --> 00:03:26.539 California. We always like to have these really 00:03:26.539 --> 00:03:29.300 smart guys on because you can help the rest of 00:03:29.300 --> 00:03:32.159 us regular folk just understand what's going 00:03:32.159 --> 00:03:36.060 on. You had a double major in history and international 00:03:36.060 --> 00:03:40.340 relations. You are a fellow at the Pacific Atrocities 00:03:40.340 --> 00:03:46.219 Education Foundation. And that's an organization, 00:03:46.259 --> 00:03:51.219 as I understand it, that started in 2014 by Jenny 00:03:51.219 --> 00:03:56.080 Chen to have a little more focus, a little more 00:03:56.080 --> 00:03:59.139 research, a little more academics on what went 00:03:59.139 --> 00:04:03.120 on in the Asia Pacific region. during World War 00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:06.719 II. We tend to focus a little more, I think, 00:04:07.639 --> 00:04:10.219 on European theater, but a whole lot of activities. 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:14.159 I know my father was over in the Pacific, so 00:04:14.159 --> 00:04:16.819 a lot of activities in the Pacific. But tell 00:04:16.819 --> 00:04:21.300 us how you got involved with the Pacific Attrusses 00:04:21.300 --> 00:04:26.639 education. Yeah, so I actually got involved with 00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:29.779 Pacific Atrosities Education in the summer of 00:04:29.779 --> 00:04:35.120 2020 during the pandemic. I was of interest in 00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:38.139 the Second World War and in military history 00:04:38.139 --> 00:04:42.759 for quite a long time since I was a... rather 00:04:42.759 --> 00:04:47.980 small child. And by the time that I was done 00:04:47.980 --> 00:04:51.019 with my freshman year of college, I found this 00:04:51.019 --> 00:04:54.259 internship opportunity on the Pacific Atrocities 00:04:54.259 --> 00:04:58.379 Education website. And I applied and I became 00:04:58.379 --> 00:05:04.459 an intern. And I wrote a book actually on the 00:05:04.459 --> 00:05:10.459 China Burma India campaign of World War II. It's 00:05:10.459 --> 00:05:15.720 on Amazon. You can buy it if you so desire. It's 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:20.319 called Competing Empires in Burma. Yeah, the 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:24.519 China -Burma -India Theater World War II. Yeah, 00:05:25.300 --> 00:05:30.069 I did that and I've actually... Today, I just 00:05:30.069 --> 00:05:35.629 completed a over 400 -page book about the Kwantung 00:05:35.629 --> 00:05:40.290 Army, which was a Japanese army in Manchuria. 00:05:41.310 --> 00:05:47.889 After my fellowship ended in 2020, I basically 00:05:47.889 --> 00:05:55.079 started a new project on the Kwantung Army. I've 00:05:55.079 --> 00:05:59.500 been working on it in the summers, and ever since 00:05:59.500 --> 00:06:03.740 I became a fellow at PAE after graduation, today 00:06:03.740 --> 00:06:08.360 I finished. I finished the final draft. Congratulations. 00:06:09.399 --> 00:06:12.060 Congratulations. That's got to feel great to 00:06:12.060 --> 00:06:14.779 finally say, OK, that's done. Now, are you still 00:06:14.779 --> 00:06:18.620 in the editing for publications phase, or is 00:06:18.620 --> 00:06:22.540 that all done as well? I just finished the editing 00:06:22.540 --> 00:06:26.279 process. It took a lot out of me and I, you know, 00:06:26.339 --> 00:06:29.639 I've pulled some all -nighters here, but I've 00:06:29.639 --> 00:06:32.759 burnt the candle on both ends and gone to the 00:06:32.759 --> 00:06:36.600 mat, but I think the result will end up being 00:06:36.600 --> 00:06:40.180 worth it in the end. You've just finished a book, 00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:42.019 so I want to talk about it a little bit because 00:06:42.019 --> 00:06:46.699 it's so fresh in your brain. Tell us about why 00:06:46.699 --> 00:06:50.860 you... wrote 400 pages on the Kwantung army, 00:06:50.939 --> 00:06:55.420 and what's that all about? Yeah, it's a very 00:06:55.420 --> 00:07:00.420 good question. I certainly did write over 400 00:07:00.420 --> 00:07:03.899 pages on the Kwantung army, and in a way, I'm 00:07:03.899 --> 00:07:07.000 still trying to grapple with the question of 00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:11.680 what it's about. And that's 400 pages later. 00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:20.399 But I guess the key idea that is in this first 00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:24.439 volume. This is only volume one. What is probably 00:07:24.439 --> 00:07:28.759 going to be a three -part series about the Kwantung 00:07:28.759 --> 00:07:33.079 army is that the Kwantung Army is really the 00:07:33.079 --> 00:07:38.060 key initiator of events, the catalyzer of events 00:07:38.060 --> 00:07:43.180 in East Asia that puts Japan on the path to war 00:07:43.180 --> 00:07:48.980 in the Asia -Pacific region. Why is this? Well, 00:07:48.980 --> 00:07:52.720 it's because of the false flag attack it conducted 00:07:52.720 --> 00:07:55.600 on the Japanese -owned South Manchuria Railway 00:07:55.600 --> 00:08:02.680 on September 18, 1931. Basically, what you had 00:08:02.680 --> 00:08:06.500 was you had two Kwantung Army staff officers. 00:08:08.259 --> 00:08:12.199 You had Ishiwara Kanji, the chief of the operations 00:08:12.199 --> 00:08:16.160 section, and another guy by the name of Itagaki 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:23.980 Sesuro, who for two years planned an invasion 00:08:23.980 --> 00:08:28.540 of Manchuria. and eventually resolved to conduct 00:08:28.540 --> 00:08:32.659 a false flag attack to justify it and get support 00:08:32.659 --> 00:08:36.019 from their own government and understanding from 00:08:36.019 --> 00:08:44.480 abroad. They schemed and planned and conducted 00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:51.409 reconnaissance. conducted in -depth studies of 00:08:51.409 --> 00:08:55.850 the region and its people and geography and terrain 00:08:55.850 --> 00:09:01.610 and administration. And they came to the conclusion 00:09:01.610 --> 00:09:08.289 that Manchuria was very important to Japan, so 00:09:08.289 --> 00:09:11.730 much so that it was, in their view, a lifeline, 00:09:12.389 --> 00:09:16.480 an economic lifeline that could help put Japan 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:21.639 on the road to autarky or self -sufficiency. 00:09:23.139 --> 00:09:25.620 Ishiwara in particular had some very interesting 00:09:25.620 --> 00:09:29.500 ideas about what he called the final war and 00:09:29.500 --> 00:09:34.659 the idea that there would probably be a war at 00:09:34.659 --> 00:09:37.840 the supposed end of history between the U .S. 00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:43.070 and Japan and that Japan needed in autarkic self 00:09:43.070 --> 00:09:47.750 -sufficient sphere in Manchuria to prevail and 00:09:47.750 --> 00:09:49.929 to even have a chance to prevail in such a war. 00:09:50.690 --> 00:09:56.389 And it's because of these, I guess, ideas which 00:09:56.389 --> 00:10:03.070 caught on because for a variety of reasons, including 00:10:03.070 --> 00:10:07.190 the Great Depression and the rise of Chinese 00:10:07.190 --> 00:10:13.580 nationalism in the other parts of China that 00:10:13.580 --> 00:10:18.379 the Japanese and the Kwantung Army decided to 00:10:18.379 --> 00:10:22.889 take matters into their own hands. and kind of 00:10:22.889 --> 00:10:26.450 conduct this false flag attack and invade Manchuria, 00:10:26.950 --> 00:10:29.370 and it could continually expand the incident 00:10:29.370 --> 00:10:35.470 despite their government and general staff not 00:10:35.470 --> 00:10:39.350 ordering them to do so. This was their own initiative, 00:10:39.470 --> 00:10:47.169 right? This was their doing. And because of that, 00:10:47.490 --> 00:10:52.179 they... Yes, we're able to conquer Manchukuo, 00:10:52.379 --> 00:10:56.559 or Manchuria, despite great odds. For reference, 00:10:57.200 --> 00:10:59.480 there were about 10 ,000 men in the Kuantung 00:10:59.480 --> 00:11:02.580 army on September 18th, and there were about 00:11:02.580 --> 00:11:07.279 probably 250 ,000 men in Zhang Xueliang's army. 00:11:07.299 --> 00:11:09.860 He was the Chinese warlord that opposed them. 00:11:10.419 --> 00:11:14.980 Maybe 130 or 140 ,000 of those guys were in Manchuria. 00:11:15.419 --> 00:11:21.399 That's still over 10 to 1 odds. right and you 00:11:21.399 --> 00:11:24.700 know was it was this a was this a land grab and 00:11:24.700 --> 00:11:27.419 resource grab is that was the that was the thinking 00:11:27.419 --> 00:11:30.059 we've got to get off our island here in japan 00:11:30.059 --> 00:11:34.059 and go get that mainland area yes for resources 00:11:34.059 --> 00:11:38.159 and people resources and people especially in 00:11:38.159 --> 00:11:41.440 manchuria you have coal and iron right steel 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:47.899 um that was a a big part of the calculus. Ishihara 00:11:47.899 --> 00:11:50.379 in particular wanted to build a second industrial 00:11:50.379 --> 00:11:54.720 base in Manchuria in the event that there would 00:11:54.720 --> 00:12:00.500 be some sort of a bombing campaign from the U 00:12:00.500 --> 00:12:05.100 .S. during what he saw as inevitable conflict 00:12:05.100 --> 00:12:12.659 between it and Japan. So, there was that element. 00:12:16.519 --> 00:12:20.700 It's really probably best understood in context 00:12:20.700 --> 00:12:24.639 in which it arose, and that is of the Great Depression, 00:12:25.539 --> 00:12:29.559 in which there was a severe worldwide economic 00:12:29.559 --> 00:12:34.179 crisis that also affected Japan. So, for instance, 00:12:34.820 --> 00:12:42.100 you have a silk the silk exports, the value of 00:12:42.100 --> 00:12:45.360 silk exports, I think went down from over 300 00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:51.440 million dollars in 1929 to 69 million in 1934. 00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:58.539 That's a pretty precipitous decline. And then 00:12:58.539 --> 00:13:05.429 you also have the Effect that this had on many 00:13:05.429 --> 00:13:08.909 rural households in Japan. So two in five rural 00:13:08.909 --> 00:13:12.009 households were involved in the silk industry 00:13:12.009 --> 00:13:15.509 the Japanese society at that time was still majority 00:13:15.509 --> 00:13:20.570 rural as were most of the guys in the army and 00:13:20.570 --> 00:13:25.129 so you had consequently a kind of proliferation 00:13:25.129 --> 00:13:33.299 of I I guess ideas that were outside the bounds 00:13:33.299 --> 00:13:37.000 of what was considered normal in the 1920s in 00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:41.759 Japan. So this conflict starts a decade before 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:44.799 World War II, really, and bombing of sort of 00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:47.200 Pearl Harbor, about a decade. Yeah, a decade. 00:13:47.539 --> 00:13:53.440 And how does that Manchurian invasion just sort 00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:56.549 of blend into World War II? How does it how does 00:13:56.549 --> 00:13:59.350 the Kwantung army, and you're writing three volumes, 00:13:59.889 --> 00:14:01.830 so you haven't gotten to the end yet, you're 00:14:01.830 --> 00:14:06.149 only 400 pages into the first volume, quickly 00:14:06.149 --> 00:14:10.950 walk us to like where's the end point? Well that's 00:14:10.950 --> 00:14:12.750 kind of one of the problems for the Kwantung 00:14:12.750 --> 00:14:17.070 army and also for Japan as a whole is there was 00:14:17.070 --> 00:14:22.220 no end point in a sense. So they So they take 00:14:22.220 --> 00:14:25.720 over Manchuria. It is a successful operation. 00:14:26.179 --> 00:14:30.120 They planned it well. It was very in -depth, 00:14:30.179 --> 00:14:33.419 and they were also helped by the fact that Chiang 00:14:33.419 --> 00:14:35.840 Kai -shek was fighting the communists and some 00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:39.120 other domestic enemies, and he issued a non -resistance 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:43.080 order to Zhang Xueliang's forces. He was the 00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:45.799 Chiang Kai -shek -aligned warlord in northeast 00:14:45.799 --> 00:14:51.090 China. So, okay. that you take over Manchuria, 00:14:51.250 --> 00:14:55.330 but then there's the problem of what you might 00:14:55.330 --> 00:14:58.509 call mission creep, or the mission creep complex, 00:14:58.529 --> 00:15:02.110 right? That is to say once you take over Manchuria, 00:15:03.129 --> 00:15:05.789 well, Manchuria doesn't have all the coal and 00:15:05.789 --> 00:15:10.470 iron deposits that you thought that it had, and 00:15:10.470 --> 00:15:13.250 those turn out to be a little bit further west. 00:15:14.059 --> 00:15:19.419 and you also have this remaining force of Zhang 00:15:19.419 --> 00:15:22.919 Xueliang's armies that are still in immediately 00:15:22.919 --> 00:15:25.919 to the west of Manchukuo, which was the puppet 00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:29.700 state that the Kuantung army set up. So what 00:15:29.700 --> 00:15:33.059 do you do? You invade the province of Yehou, 00:15:33.299 --> 00:15:39.100 or Rehe, in 1933, again, without really getting 00:15:39.100 --> 00:15:42.799 the permission of the government or the general 00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:48.820 staff, you then begin balkanizing or trying to 00:15:48.820 --> 00:15:52.220 balkanize parts of North China, most notably 00:15:52.220 --> 00:15:56.919 Hebei province, which is kind of surrounds Beijing, 00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:02.440 and Inner Mongolia, which is kind of, it borders 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:07.399 Mongolia, as the name would suggest, and you 00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:12.769 basically get the Kwantung Army covertly supporting 00:16:12.769 --> 00:16:18.870 these ethnic and regional separatists in trying 00:16:18.870 --> 00:16:22.210 to break off what is nominally sovereign Chinese 00:16:22.210 --> 00:16:26.950 territory into Kwantung Army satellite states, 00:16:27.190 --> 00:16:32.289 all in the name of securing the original possession 00:16:32.289 --> 00:16:38.750 of Manchuria. Then that leads to Chiang Kai -shek. 00:16:38.750 --> 00:16:42.799 He gets kidnapped by Zhang Xueliang and held 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:47.779 at gunpoint. And he's basically told that you're 00:16:47.779 --> 00:16:50.899 either going to end this first pacification, 00:16:51.100 --> 00:16:56.059 then resistance policy or else. He ends it, creates 00:16:56.059 --> 00:17:00.700 a united front and resolves to resist Japan and 00:17:00.700 --> 00:17:03.440 not let any of these encroachments happen anymore. 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:07.039 And then you get the second sign of Japanese 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:11.839 war. breaking out in 1937 after the Marco Polo 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:16.839 Bridge incident, which is another one of these 00:17:16.839 --> 00:17:21.940 incidents. That was more of an accident, really, 00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:28.599 but it objectively led to a conflagration breaking 00:17:28.599 --> 00:17:33.720 out in China. And then the Second Southern Japanese 00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:37.799 War eventually leads to Pearl Harbor and the 00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:40.400 strike south campaign, which is Japan's assault 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:44.500 on Southeast Asia Because the China campaign 00:17:44.500 --> 00:17:48.299 is why Japan doesn't have the necessary raw materials 00:17:48.299 --> 00:17:51.099 that it needs to continue prosecuting the war 00:17:51.099 --> 00:17:55.859 or really it's because Japan did not defeat China 00:17:55.859 --> 00:18:00.079 in the six months that it assumed it could Well, 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:03.059 I got to tell you Quinn. This is a fascinating 00:18:03.059 --> 00:18:06.440 story. I see the I'm beginning to see or understand 00:18:06.440 --> 00:18:09.319 the complexity and why this is going to end up 00:18:09.319 --> 00:18:12.839 a three -volume set for you. It's a hell of an 00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:16.480 endeavor. And listening to you, I have echoes 00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:21.960 of Putin and Crimea and Ukraine going on in my 00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:24.539 head like, have we learned nothing? And the answer 00:18:24.539 --> 00:18:26.920 is, of course, we've learned nothing from our 00:18:26.920 --> 00:18:29.859 history. That's why, in part, it's important 00:18:29.859 --> 00:18:32.420 to know your history so maybe you can learn a 00:18:32.420 --> 00:18:37.089 few things. I really appreciate the extra time. 00:18:37.609 --> 00:18:40.109 I told you, you know, we've doubled what I told 00:18:40.109 --> 00:18:43.230 you we were gonna run. So I do appreciate this. 00:18:44.750 --> 00:18:47.130 And I anticipate we're gonna be back together 00:18:47.130 --> 00:18:50.170 talking about some of this in the future because 00:18:50.170 --> 00:18:55.650 of its complexity and its importance today. To 00:18:55.650 --> 00:18:58.849 our veteran radio listeners, Quinn Zhou, who 00:18:58.849 --> 00:19:02.250 are... Going I knew nothing about this. Where 00:19:02.250 --> 00:19:04.690 would you point him for some more resources? 00:19:05.490 --> 00:19:09.910 To get a little more educated Yeah, so obviously 00:19:09.910 --> 00:19:13.190 Pacific atrocities education website is a great 00:19:13.190 --> 00:19:18.940 place to start there a good many blog posts and 00:19:18.940 --> 00:19:23.220 videos and books you can find on the website. 00:19:23.539 --> 00:19:27.799 Most of the books are not 400 pages so that's 00:19:27.799 --> 00:19:30.880 not really something you can start off smaller 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:35.779 if you want and the blog posts obviously are 00:19:35.779 --> 00:19:41.269 even More diminutive than that and I think they're 00:19:41.269 --> 00:19:45.210 very well written in my opinion I think the interns 00:19:45.210 --> 00:19:48.710 put a lot of effort into them and they're very 00:19:48.710 --> 00:19:53.309 informative I'm quite impressed oftentimes by 00:19:53.309 --> 00:19:56.950 the content that I see and then you have the 00:19:56.950 --> 00:20:02.430 videos as well on the PAE website, so I would 00:20:02.430 --> 00:20:05.750 say that you should check the website out for 00:20:05.750 --> 00:20:10.859 sure and see what strikes your fancy. So, and 00:20:10.859 --> 00:20:15.000 you can find Quinn's book, Competing Empires 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:17.920 in Burma, a chronicle of the China -Burma -India 00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:21.099 theater of World War II on Amazon. It was actually 00:20:21.099 --> 00:20:26.160 ranked in the top 10 of Amazon's military category. 00:20:27.460 --> 00:20:30.259 His new book is now written, not quite out yet, 00:20:30.299 --> 00:20:32.960 but you expect it to be published later this 00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:37.740 year, I take it? I hope it will be published 00:20:37.740 --> 00:20:42.000 by September 18th, the anniversary of the Mukden 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:46.099 incident, the false flag attack. So you'll be 00:20:46.099 --> 00:20:48.880 able to find that. Again, will that be up on 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:52.099 not only the PAE website, but also over on Amazon? 00:20:53.019 --> 00:20:58.980 Yeah, it should be on Amazon for sure. Well, 00:20:58.980 --> 00:21:01.339 you're doing exciting and important work. We 00:21:01.339 --> 00:21:05.009 appreciate the time that you gave us here today 00:21:05.009 --> 00:21:08.809 on Veterans Radio. Quinn, thank you. Thank you 00:21:08.809 --> 00:21:13.990 for having me. I'm going to stop the... And I 00:21:13.990 --> 00:21:15.890 want to thank everybody for listening to Veterans 00:21:15.890 --> 00:21:19.690 Radio today. I am Jim Fossone. It's been a pleasure 00:21:19.690 --> 00:21:22.309 to be your host. I'm a Veterans Disability Lawyer 00:21:22.309 --> 00:21:25.069 at Legal Help for Veterans, and you can reach 00:21:25.069 --> 00:21:31.069 us at 800 -693 -4800 or legalhelpforveterans 00:21:31.069 --> 00:21:34.269 .com on the web. 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