All across America and around the world, this
is Veterans Radio. This is Veterans Radio. Good
day. I'm Jim Fosson. I'm the Officer of the Deck
today here on Veterans Radio and thanks for joining
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.com. Today's interviews are going to be interesting.
We're going to talk to David Brown, self -reported
smallest seal ever. If you've ever been told
you're too small, you're not fast enough, can't
jump high enough, you're not strong enough, this
guy's story's inspiring and you want to listen
in. And then later we're going to talk to retired
Major Susan Gelvin, who was at the Pentagon on
9 -11, she's a doctor, and she's going to tell
us what their unit did that day. She ultimately
received the Soldiers Medal for her efforts,
even though she was in the United States Air
Force. Interesting story, so listen in. We want
to give you a little advance notice. We're going
to have a Veterans Radio event on Sunday, September
28th, 2025. Radio on the River. We're doing a
new location on Freedom River in Livingston County,
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going to have veteran storytelling and guest
speakers. We'll have raffle items, great local
musicians and food. Also, uniquely, there's going
to be an opportunity to fly in a UH -1 Huey from
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also win a free ride that way. Plan on supporting
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Radio on the River. Contact us at daleatveteransradio
.org or jimatveteransradio .org to get more information
but we'd love to have you come out and we'd certainly
love to have you sponsor. We want to welcome
to Veterans Radio today David W. Brown, a Navy
SEAL. in the 1980s. We're gonna talk about his
life though, because I think there's a whole
lot of life lessons in there, and we love giving
pearls of wisdom to our veteran radio listeners.
David, welcome to Veterans Radio. Thank you for
having me. I'm really excited to be here. Well,
the book is titled Anne Goliath. You get the
inside joke on this when you realize his first
name is David. And he's not the biggest, roughest,
toughest guy you've ever met. So it's a David
and Goliath story. And it's the subtitled, the
littlest Navy SEALs inspirational story about
living your biggest life. It's really a good
read. And David, you were, you know, from the
get go, your mom and dad, your genetics, you
were never gonna be a big guy, were you? No,
I started off small and stayed small and you
know what, in the end, it's okay with me. Absolutely,
it's all about a mindset and it's really about,
your book is not the typical how to become a
Navy SEAL book or how to do leadership. It's
really about talking about that kind of human
condition. and being able to be resilient and
getting through things and being persistent and
having determination. But those were skills,
whether they were inbred, genetic, was it nature
or nurture. Talk to us about your early years
of being the littlest guy in every class. I didn't
know that I was going to be the littlest person
going into even kindergarten or grade school.
It just happened that way and as I came, started
getting older, you know, and I advanced into
the grades, the typical thing happens and when
you're the smallest person in the class you get
picked on and I was picked on and one of the
very important moments in my life was when I
ran home to my mom and I was crying and and I
said you know the kids picking on me what do
I do and she was a a fiery Irish redheaded woman
and she picked me up on her knee and sat me down
and said nobody's gonna pick on my little boy
and she made me make a fist and and punch her
hand and punch that she said now you you punch
this is how you punch you do this and she did
i did it several times so i was like laughing
i'm like yes yes yes i'm gonna i'm gonna stick
up for myself and you know you go and you stick
up for yourself you know you if somebody picks
on you punch them right in the kisser and um
so i went to school and as you can imagine i
got in a fight with the kid that always picked
on me and we you know we're third grade so it's
not this is push and shove and punch this then
then And then nobody really won the fight and
we ended up becoming friends later on, but it
was a big, it was a big influence for me and
my mother helped me bring that confidence out
that I could stick up for myself. It's not like
I wanted to go out and get in a lot of fight,
but that certainly things worth having were worth
fighting for and That was the beginning if you
will of how I was started building my confidence
as even as a young as a child Yeah, you really
at some point needs there's a couple of pearls
of wisdom here what one is You need somebody
who's got your back right in your instance. It
was mom mom said it's okay to Let me show you
how to throw a punch and if you're getting bullied
Fight back. So it's important to have somebody
in your corner and knowing when the second pearl
of wisdom here is standing up for yourself, knowing
when you've got to be the one, right? I mean,
nobody else is going to come to your rescue.
You've got to find it within yourself. Yeah,
absolutely. that's the key. I think finding it
within yourself, knowing that it's there and
having a circumstance to bring that out is really
important. That's where the nurture part of the
nature and nurture comes in. You know, we all
have abilities and skills that are inherent to
us that we got from our ancestors. Your mother,
your father, and all your ancestors bring all
these things, qualities to you and you just have
to get out there and live life so you can experience
and how to focus on those things and be a better
person. Let me put some more context around this.
You grew up in what I would call coal country
in Wilkboro, Pennsylvania. Your parents, as I
say, were short in stature. You topped out at
five foot three inches. were 110 pounds when
you went into the Navy. But along the way, before
you got there, you had these experiences that
both from your parents, maybe grandparents, that
sort of started to shape your life. And there's
an analogy that you use about sheepdog that I
hadn't heard before that I thought was really
helpful to frame this. Tell us a little bit about
that. And that came from some research I was
doing about why am I the protector? Why did I
go into law enforcement? Why did I go into the
military? And during my research I found came
across a book called On Combat from Colonel Grossman
and in it he explains how certain personalities
exist in in our society and one of them being
a sheep dog and the sheep dog is the one of is
the protector now not you know the sheep don't
particularly like the sheep dog sometimes but
you know what they're willing to live with the
sheep dog and because they know the sheep dog
can be there to help them help them if the wolf
and that's the other factor in society you have
the wolves that are going to prey on the sheep
so when you talk about the sheep dog personality
of mine that's where that analogy comes from
is from Colonel Grossman and it's a great story
and I agree as soon as I read it I was like this
is spot -on because even today now that you know
I've had a career in law enforcement I'm known
even though I'm retired I'm known as the unofficial
sheriff of my neighborhood because I'm the one
who goes to the City Council and if there's some
something a safety issue I'm I petition for it
and I rally my neighbors and it's just some,
it's just part of who I am. Now also to put context
into this, I believe you were one of five kids.
You somehow convinced yourself you could fly
and you tried a few, jumping off a few things
to, until you proved to yourself this is a bad
idea. but you also got yourself scuba qualified
at eight years old. You had a lot of confidence
in some of these areas and in some regards, I
think you are telling us confidence trumps maybe
IQ. Sometimes for the bad side of that. As you
mentioned, I tried to jump off a wall with cardboard
wings, thinking I would fly because I had dreams
about flying. And I quickly found out that you
cannot fly with cardboard wings. So confidence
is great, but it needs to be coupled with common
sense. As a child, I pushed, let's just put it
this way, when I saw things that were dangerous,
that was a moderator for me. So I was often in
the hospital getting stitches, sprain, bumps,
bruises. And that's just, again, is another personality
trait. One of those personality traits that I
think you inherited or got from somewhere is
you were really adverse to quitting anything.
you know jump off the roof once it didn't work
okay i'm making a different set of wings let
me try it again you weren't a quitter in any
shape or form were you and now it happened once
and uh if you recall and there was the football
story i decided uh in at 80 pounds i was gonna
try out for the football team in junior high
school and 80 pound kid playing football against
100 200 pound kids didn't go well for me and
I quit the team and it was it was absolutely
devastating for me. It took it took over a year
really to get over the fact that I was a quitter
and that had such a influence on me going forward
that I swore to myself I was never going to quit
anything again and and I haven't I simply have
not. If I take on a task and even if it's difficult
and I don't do well I learn You know, I learn
from my experiences and I go forward I don't
look at it as a failure and if you can never
fail it in your life if you look at every single
experience as a learning opportunity, so That's
that old, you know, it's not getting knocked
down isn't the failure the failure is failing
to get back up So as long and you were very persistent
and determined to always get back up 100 % spot
-on And you write about success, failures, and
focus. And I think this is, you know, the first
part of this book is so important for anybody
maybe to give to, as I said, the grandkids, their
nieces and nephews, their own kids, about look
at if you maybe feel like you're too small, you're
scrawny, you're bullied, you're an outsider.
but your story's really about overcoming all
that, even when people told you, you're too small,
you're too weak, you're a poor runner, you'll
never make it in the Navy, you'll never make
it in the SEALs. Talk to us a little bit about
the mountain you faced as you climbed up it,
ultimately, to graduate BUDs and become a Navy
SEAL. Oh, you're absolutely right. My whole life,
leading up to before I went into the Navy, I
was always told, you're too small for this, you're
too small for that. You don't get picked in grade
school for the teams. And then when I was finally
get to the point where I'm trying to decide what
I'm gonna do with my life in high school. And
I went to the Navy recruiter and found out that
there was the thing called UDT underwater demolition
team and SEAL teams. And I'd never heard of it
before. It was in a book that he gave me of job
descriptions for the Navy. And so I read that
and I said, well, this is this is it. I have
to do this. And, you know, I was really into
Jacques Cousteau. I was into James Bond and Speed
Racer and all those shows back in the day. And,
you know, I read this and I said, wow, I'm going
to be Jacques Cousteau and a machine gun. I'm
this is everything I want to do in life. And
I went to the recruiter said, this is it. I'm
going to be a UDT seal. And he just looked at
me and he had a kind a wrinkle forehead he said
no no you're not no these are UDT seals are big
strong guys you are not and you are not gonna
make it you need to pick something you can really
do now now he was talking to a guy who had been
who had been told he's too small to do this his
entire life so I went but I I respected his opinion.
I went home. I read everything else in the book.
I came back within the next couple days and I
said, no, this is what I'm going to do and that's
it. Sign me up. It's not that easy, is it though?
For me to make the decision was easy to go forward
with it. Of course not. I was terrified. Here's
the funny thing or the interesting thing about
why people don't do things is because they're
afraid of the unknown and they're afraid of failure.
And of course I was, I was afraid of the unknown
and I've never been out of Pennsylvania. I didn't
know anything about anything at 17 years old,
joined in the Navy. And then I picked probably
the hardest job in the Navy to do, physically
at least. And I was afraid, but that's That's
life. Everything is a challenge and especially
the things that you don't know that you can accomplish
is even more of a challenge. But that shouldn't
stop you. You have a phrase in here which I wrote
down and I want you to expand on a little bit
about the loss, the battle within the prison
of the mind. It's an interesting concept because
it goes back to what you just said about Being
afraid to try something because I already figured
I've already convinced myself. I can't do that,
right? Yes Absolutely, and that's that's the
that's the first hurdle to the as you The first
step on the yellow brick road, right? You can't
go get to anywhere if you don't get that out
of that to get over the challenge in your own
mind that there's a possibility that you could
succeed and there's plenty of examples I use
but for me when I was for instance in going through
SEAL training my biggest challenge was running
I was a very slow runner my inseam is 28 you
know so you gotta step twice as much to get to
the tall guy at 6 '2 exactly I'm practically
in a sprint the whole time when they're jogging
and so I felt behind often and often and they
did all kinds of it's called a goon squad and
they made me do all these crazy exercises and
all the guys that fell behind were in the goon
squad until finally I was on a run and I felt
was falling behind again and and this was the
do or die situation for me in SEAL training is
I was either going to catch up and be the person
that I needed to be in order to succeed or I
was going to quit and I was going to fail and
as I mentioned that is not in my you know vocabulary
even then and so I had this I want to say it
is outer body experience where I just couldn't
even feel my body anymore I convinced myself
I was going to physically be able to catch up
with them and I did and I caught up with the
group and I and so we go back to what you just
mentioned how do you unlock the limitations in
your own mind that you can't do something And
when you're faced with something like a life
or death situation that I felt I was in, that's
when the true colors come out. The other thing
buried in that story is having, and mentor may
be too strong a word, but having somebody again
who has faith in you who can tell you. tricks
of the trade which is one of the things you got
about how to run in sand and I really thought
like there's somebody who's trying to help you
even though they're a pretty rough exterior talk
a little bit about how that helped keep you moving
through the process I was very lucky to have
a mentor when I checked into seal training and
he was another guy short guy about five, six,
his name was Senior Chief Kosini, Filipino, and
he took me aside from the very first day and
said, you know, Dave. Brown, this is how you're
going to have to, what you're going to have to
do in order to make it through training. And
as I said, I didn't know anything about SEAL
training. And so he was there to show me how
to do the exercises, how to run in soft sand.
And he actually took me out and he worked with
me for a few weeks. I checked into training a
couple weeks early, so I had a little bit of
time for him to show me how to do things, because
as you mentioned, there are nuances to everything
that can make it easier in a way that you can
get through. If he wasn't there to show me all
the little nuances, like you said, like running
in soft sand, step in the marks of the person
in front of you, run in the person's footsteps.
What that did, I mean, physically, it may be
lengthen my stride, right? So number one, that
helped. But mentally, when you're running in
the footprints of the person that's making it
and succeeding, that actually is that momentum
is pulling you forward. And instead of you. Pushing
yourself. Well, and I think that again that's
one of when you read this book. It's really about
the human condition The book is titled and Goliath
by David Brown It it focuses you on some you
know sort of basic rules of life and one is don't
be afraid to take a little help and There's always
a new answers always the people before you have
always learned a way to get through it glean
some information to them and your journey will
be a little easier won't it? Absolutely and you're
very lucky if you can have that type of mentor
and I tried to be that person throughout the
rest of my career helping the people that I hired
and as special agents and investigators and I
always told everyone even the first day I was
hired them I'd bring them in my office and say
look I hired you because I feel you have the
ability to replace me and that's my job is to
make you good enough to be able to take my job.
You have a couple of other phrases in here that
that I wrote down because I think they help everybody
understand things. One was bad never lasts forever.
And that's important to link back up to the prisoner
of the mind, right? The games that's going on
inside your own brain, like, I'll never get through
this, it's horrible, this is a bad situation,
but it doesn't last forever, does it? No, it
doesn't. And in training, budge training, the
way you get through six months of hell is you
break it down into what we called evolutions.
And there were many evolutions in in the day,
some worse than others, but we always knew mentally
that that particular evolution was going to end,
no matter how cold it was, no matter how hot,
nasty, wet, that when the clock reached noon
or whatever, one, two o 'clock, when that time
ended, the bad was going to be over. survive
that evolution and then then you went on to the
next evolution and then the next one but if you
put them all together it was this giant ball
of of of drama that you could never get out from
underneath knowing that you were going to have
to survive six months of what you were enduring
at that moment you had to know that it was going
to end and just endure the moment don't get too
far ahead of yourself And again, this is one
of these life lessons on the human condition.
Right now may not be great, but don't let your
mind spin out so far out you can't get through
it. You've gotta get through the evolution as
you talk about sucking up and get through the
evolution. Now, we're gonna run out of time and
this always happens to me because I really enjoyed
this book and all the little wisdom in it. But
you were in the SEALs, you were in the Navy for,
I think, about seven, eight years. You then went
into law enforcement. You were a special agent
with the National Criminal Investigative Services,
NCIS. I'm sure you must have been Mark Harmon's
inspiration for the popular TV show. If you could
have only got the royalties, right? You then
left NCIS and took a leadership position at the
Environmental Protection Agency's Criminal Investigative
Division, or CID. So from a scrawny little kid
in Pennsylvania, this isn't a life you could
have ever imagined, was it? No, not at all. When
I got out of the Navy, I remember saying if I
could just make $30 ,000 a year, I would be set
and I could retire. Now it won't buy a car. I
said to myself, I'm going to get my college degree
when I was in the Navy and I did. I went to night
school and I got my degree and I was going to
get out of the Navy and wear a suit and carry
a gun was what I used to say. And so I did that.
I went out and With the same fervor as going
to become a Navy SEAL, I attacked being a special
agent, and I think I did really well. In the
end, I advanced through the ranks from, in the
government terms, GS7, pay grade, all the way
to where I retired as a senior executive. And
part of this is I want to get across to people
that you'll David's very candid in the book.
There's a lot of heartbreak along the way, both
personal, marriage -wise, and all of that's in
all of our lives, but some of the things you
earned early on in your life, pre -Navy, during
the sealed time, I suspect those lessons helped
you get through the hard times in the rest of
life. Absolutely, there are physical challenge
and then there are personal challenges and mental
challenges and I don't know which is more difficult
as I mentioned at you know certainly the beginning
of the book there's a death and I say something
to the effect that nothing I had experienced
in the Navy or in budge training or as a special
agent prepared me to deal with the death. And
that was hard. It was hard. And it really took
me to go back and remember the situations that
I had faced, the difficult ones, and said, well,
if I can get through that, I can get through
this. As we mentioned, it's another evolution.
It's not the most pleasant, but it's just another
evolution in life. Well, David Brown, you've
had a great career path. I think it's inspirational.
The story Anne Goliath is available from all
booksellers online and elsewhere. And I really
think it's useful, a useful read for those who
may be struggling or have family members or friends
who are struggling with. sort of all the outside
negativity they get about, you can't do this,
you can't do that, you do this, you do that.
There's a lot of wisdom in here, and I think
you did a great job of bringing that forward
in. And Goliath, which is a, oh, I had it here
somewhere. Double Dagger is the publisher, I
believe. Yes. Well, thank you for spending some
time with Veterans Radio today, David, and wish
you nothing but best of luck on the book and
in the future. Thank you for having me and shout
out to all the veterans, all the great job you
do out there. It's a safer world because of you.
Military veterans touch everyone's life. I'm
guessing right now you're thinking of a veteran,
a close friend, relative. Maybe it's you. Even
the toughest of us sometimes need help, but don't
know where to turn for support. You don't need
special training to help a veteran in your life.
Even small actions can make a world of difference.
If you know a veteran in crisis, please call
the Veterans Crisis Line, 800 -273 -8255. 800
-273 -8255. A message from the U .S. Department
of Veterans Affairs. If you have a VA claim denied
by the Board of Veterans' Appeals, contact Legal
Help for Veterans at 1 -800 -693 -4800. They're
experts in handling cases before the U .S. Court
of Appeals for Veterans' claims. Their number
again, 1 -800 -693 -4800. We're going to hear
now from a doctor who was at the Pentagon on
9 -11. You're going to find Major Susan Gelvin's
story riveting and probably bring back some memories
for you as well. about that fateful day. She
ultimately received the soldiers medal for her
activities that day, even though she's from the
United States Air Force. So listen in. We want
to welcome to Veterans Radio today, Susan C.
Gelvin, United States Air Force, retired as a
major, has an interesting military story, and
she was in the Pentagon on 9 -11. Susan, welcome
to Veterans Radio. Thank you so much. It's really
an honor to be asked to be here. Well, you have
a unique story that should be told and we hope
our veteran radio listeners find some new facts
here that maybe they didn't know about what went
on after the plane crashed into the Pentagon.
But let's start with more basic stuff. How did
a nice kid like you from Massachusetts end up
in the Air Force? You know, it's funny because
my dad had served He actually his service landed
kind of between wars He was a radar technician
and spent some time in Libya, but he never ever
talked about it and it didn't come up until I
was you know getting ready to apply for colleges
so but that point we had moved from Massachusetts
to California because his company had transferred
him out and my dad was like well have you ever
thought about you know joining the military and
they could pay for your education and you know
you think about the academy and things like that
and I have to admit like I've always been kind
of a rule follower and just thinking like I felt
like I'd fit in well with just the military way
of life but I really wanted to be a physician.
And just the more we looked into it, the more
we thought, well then maybe the Academy wasn't
the way to go because, you know, they definitely
can put some restrictions, what you do after
the Academy. So, you know, I was applying to
various colleges and programs and looking at
ROTC. And I ended up being accepted into a six
year program where I essentially did my bachelor's
and my medical degree in six years. which meant
I was only in college physically for two. When
I signed up for Air Force ROTC at RPI, which
was my undergrad, I got there and the officers
in charge looked at my program and they're like,
you're doing what? They have three -year scholarships
and four -year scholarships for ROTC, but they
just didn't know what to do with this two -year
program. And so they said, well, we really don't
think we can help you for college. But when you
get to med school, there's a whole other program.
So I decided to stay in ROTC, even though I wasn't
a scholarship cadet, just because I figured,
well, if I'm going to sign up for the military,
I should probably know what I'm getting into.
And I loved it. Some of the best friends I've
ever made were in Air Force ROTC. And I loved
the joint mission. I loved the idea of serving
my country. And you know, I also learned that
docs kind of get of a bad rep in the military
of not being real officers. And I decided, well,
I was gonna do the best I could to be a real
officer, even if I was just a doctor. Even if,
so you ended up getting your medical degree from
Albany Medical College in coordination with Rensselaer
Poly. Tech Institute or RPI in short order and
came out as a freshly minted captain. Where did
you do your residency and how did your military
career proceed? So with that scholarship program
you have the option to apply for a civilian deferral
to do a civilian residency. But again, I was
like, well, for a penny and for a pound. And
I got into the family medicine residency at Andrews
Air Force Base down in Maryland. And so my first
day of active duty, I was a brand new captain
and a brand new doctor. And my first rotation
was on the labor and delivery ward. And I learned
very quickly that most average officers and who
aren't in the medical field see those captain's
bars and assume a lot about you that may or may
not be true. It really is a baptism of life.
This captain, this doctor, she must know a lot
to be here, right? Little did they know it was
the first week. Yep, first week wearing the uniform
every day other than some summer tours I had
done in med school. So it was like jumping into
two deep end pools at the same time. Well one
of the things that is always interesting in talking
to people is particularly those who go through
ROTC. I don't think I've ever talked to anybody
who didn't go through that process and felt it
was really powerful in shaping them and in giving
them insight into the military. I don't think
we talked to our kids enough about this. Was
ROTC something that your dad pushed or just something
that you saw as Hey, I'm interested in this field.
I'm going to get in knee deep. Suddenly, we were
looking for how are we going to pay for this
for college and med school because the six -year
programming in these schools were expensive.
That's how it started. But I got to tell you
in very short order, pretty much by the end of
what we called our little cadet boot camp before
freshman year of college started, I was like,
these are my people. Well, it's good to feel
that grounded going into college certainly and
I should mention that you served on active duty
from 1998 to 2005 you did some reserve time while
you were in med school back 94 through up to
98 and then you did a year in reserves afterwards
when you finally got out as a major because of
family dynamics and decisions So you've got a
good decade or more of service here, and tell
us how you came to be at the Pentagon on September
11th of 2001. Well, my husband and I had just
gotten married Okay, you snuck that snuck that
in let's tell them where you've met your husband
So I met my husband at Andrew's he at the time
was also a family physician and We we got married
and Obviously, since I'd be graduating residency,
I'd be finishing my assignment at Andrews, and
he wasn't really in the assignment cycle for
him to move yet. Since we were married, they
assigned me to an open slot at the DeLorenzo
Tricare Health Clinic, which is the big clinic
in the Pentagon. When I started the Pentagon
in July, we had been married for a couple months.
And when 9 -11 happened, I had been there for
all of five weeks. And I had a new job as a new
attending. There's another little twist here,
because anybody who's ever been in the military
and wonder how these guys make assignments in
the personnel office. So you just got married,
you're going to be assigned to the Pentagon.
What did they decide to do with your husband
at that time, I believe a major, where did they
decide to send him? So they decided it was his
turn to do a deployment at Prince Sultan Air
Base in Saudi Arabia. So exactly a week before
9 -11, I dropped him off at the airport. So here
you are, sort of brand new at this clinic in
the Pentagon. Tell us what your duties were.
Tell us what was going on sort of in your professional
career at that point as the events of 9 -11 unfold.
Okay, so the clinic there is actually pretty
sizable. It's tri -service, though it's run by
the Army. And we had primary care, physical therapy.
We had our own lab, radiology. We also handled
all emergency services for the building. We had
little ambulances. They were golf carts, but
they were like stretch golf carts because I could
hold a gurney. So if there was any kind of accident
or someone had a heart attack in the Pentagon,
we took care of them as well. So when I came
in, I was a family physician, and I also was
the chief of the physical exam section for the
Air Force. So I was responsible for making sure
that the 3 ,000 to 4 ,000 Air Force people in
the building got their physical, but it was what
was called something called a PHA, every year.
So on the morning of 9 -11, I'd been there about
five weeks. I still hadn't been anywhere in the
building without an escort. Usually they send
an escort with you because they need to get lost.
They hate to lose new doctors and new captains
in the Pentagon. It's just wandering around,
don't they? Yeah, they call it the five -sided
puzzle palace, and that is no lie. To be honest,
I was a little afraid to go anywhere beyond the
little, you know, convenience shop down the hallway
without somebody with me. So I mainly stuck to
the clinic and did my work there. And the morning,
9 -11, I mean, it was like any other clinic day.
And I remember walking up to the front desk because
I hadn't seen a patient in a little bit. And
I wondered if maybe they had no showed. And I
noticed there were a bunch of people watching
the television in the waiting area and showing
the first plane going into the first building.
in New York City. And so I watched for a few
minutes and I remember walking back to one of
my colleagues' offices and saying, hey, did you
see what's on TV? A plane flew into the World
Trade Center. And she has a really kind of dry,
sarcastic sense of humor. And she goes, well,
she goes, maybe we ought to just close up because
I best learn next. And I mean, I kid you not,
it probably wasn't 10 minutes later when the
Pentagon was hit. I didn't I didn't feel like
a big boom or anything, but I was on my feet
at the time. My colleague said that she sort
of felt like a like a wump at her desk. Like
if you've ever been in a small earthquake in
California, it kind of feels like that. And your
clinic was located on the opposite side of the
Pentagon from where the plane crashed. Is that
right? Yes. Yes, and the odd thing is that had
just moved from that location. I want to say
maybe a couple years before, but the online the
website for the Pentagon, like, like the things
on there had not been updated. So when this all
happened. a bunch of my family went on the Pentagon
website to see if they could figure out where
I was. And they thought I was right where the
plane had hit. But yes, we were we were almost
directly opposite. We were on the right by north
parking. If you walk in, you go through the turnstiles.
We're right there on the left. So I. And did
you think did you think, oh, that's the plane
crashing into us, like my colleague said, or
what? Now what was your immediate thought about
what had occurred? You know I thought I was a
pretty worldly person up to this point and today
I realized just how naive I was because um you
know I I went back up to the front desk and this
man comes in and just starts screaming we've
been hit we've been hit everybody get out. and
so then this whole mass of people which actually
there was a lot of people in the waiting area
then and the only thing I could think of is that
people knew we had a tv and as they were coming
in the building they were stopping in to kind
of see you know get an update on what was going
on so this wave of people goes out and literally
just sweeps me out of the building and I get
outside and I stop and I turn around I see all
these people running towards me and I can see
smoke coming up from the from far away, like
I told the other side of the building, like not
our side. And, you know, Pentagon is old. And
that side actually was undergoing some very much
needed renovations. There's places in that in
the in there that had not had significant renovations
for decades. And I thought, well, maybe a gas
line blew or like something like that. My first
thought was not, oh, another plane came and hit
us. Well, and I think all of us watching this
I know I was watching it on TV As it has occurred,
you know that first plane you thought well, how
dumb is the pilot? I mean, I'm not sure we as
Americans necessarily Quickly equated it to an
organized terrorist attack Did your mind ever
get there that day or was the chaos and the medical
needs just so overwhelming? It didn't matter
why it happened Well, I think I think we all
got there pretty quickly and I think to be honest
most people faster than me and a lot of rumors
started flying because I was outside for maybe
ten minutes right after we all left the building
there and You'd hear these things. Oh, I heard
that there was a bomb at Camp David and then
it was a car bomb at the Capitol. And so I think
by then most people had after the two planes
in New York and this one had moved into, oh,
this was not a series of very unfortunate events.
This was planned. But then at the same time,
you're like, well, it doesn't really matter.
Like, I'm here now and there are people that
are hurt and we just got to do what we have to
do. You said Initially, you're outside for about
10 minutes. Yeah. At what point and how does
it happen? You say, I got to go back inside and
help folks. Well, I mean, I think after the initial
confusion, like I didn't see a lot of people
from our clinic. There was one of the nurses
and we had a nursing student with us and I didn't
have a radio on her thing. And I learned at that
point that normally Every day in the clinic,
we had something called the emergency team in
case something happened in the building. And
there'd be, you know, some medics, a nurse, a
doc, and they would all have a walkie talkie.
And so you'd still go about doing your normal
stuff. But in case an emergency came up, everybody
was reachable and they had go bags with all the
supplies and that kind of stuff. Well, I didn't
have one of those radios because I wasn't on
the emergency team. They didn't make me do that
duty until I had gotten my feet a little wetter
there. And then one of the other medics was outside
and ran up and handed me his radio. And it was
just a, it was really a cluster of all sorts
of people talking, but I realized that everyone
was, you know, was still back in there. So I
said, well, if that's where we're going, we're
go back in the building. So I went back inside
and the first place I stopped was the clinic.
And it was like, I put this, I told this to Mr.
Stirner, it was like, it was kind of like mash.
Like there were, the waiting area was just people
on the floor and they were trying to start IVs.
There were people with burns. There were people
with injuries. And our commander was at Walter
Reed that day. And so the next clinical person
in command, the chief nurse gave me her radio
or told me to keep my radio and said, I need
you to go to where the plane hit and tell me
how many casualties we have there. And I don't
think she was realizing at the time that out
of everybody in the room, I'd hear the least
about how to get around in the building. There's
those captain bars again. Yeah, like just we're
nothing but trouble. And so like I didn't realize
that you could just cut straight up that there
were like spokes of the wheel and that you could
just cut straight up into the center courtyard
and cut across to the other side. I hadn't been
there yet. So I followed the path ways that I
had been taken on before when I had to go to
various offices when I was in processing. and
so I ended up working my way up I think to the
fourth floor of the building and I thought I
must be getting really close because the smoke
started getting really bad but again one of the
the weird physics of the sort of circular nature
of the Pentagon is that once that explosion happened,
the smoke kind of got drawn and sucked all the
way around the circle. So it was really, really
smoky, but I actually wasn't anywhere near the
crash site, but there were a lot of people milling
around confused. I ran into a couple people from
the clinic and they said, look, we have to get
these people out of here. And so we were running
down, just banging on doors and directing people
to the only open ways we knew to get out of the
building. The smoke just kept getting worse and
worse and it got to the point where we were just
crawling on our hands and knees until basically
we couldn't find any more people. No more people
were answering knocks on doors and then we got
a call on the radio from the security of the
Pentagon and they said, we have reports of another
plane incoming and everybody needs to get out
of the building now. Just has to be frightening.
I mean just I know those of us who watched it
on TV were frightened But to be on the ground
to smell it to breathe that smoke to see people
who were injured It just had to be frightening
and I guess I'm wondering How would struck you
in the moment? To be honest, in that moment,
it hadn't really hit me yet. I don't know if
that's just a blessing from God in the way he
enables our brain to compartmentalize. But in
that moment, all I could think about was what's
the next right thing we need to do. And so we
headed back down to the clinic and They were
trying to basically get as many supplies from
inside the clinic to outside so we could get
out of the building. This is a clinic, it's not
an ER, it's not a hospital, you have limited.
No, but I will say it is one of the nicest supplied
clinics I've ever worked in in my career. Like
I said, we have a mini ER of sorts, so we could
do quite a bit. before say an ambulance would
arrive if someone was in dire straits. So we
had a couple of intubation kits, we had oxygen
tanks, we had IVs, all that kind of stuff. And
then we had our own pharmacy, so there was medications.
So everyone in each of the clinic rooms had like
a little... You know, those craftsman tool kits
kind of looks like that, but more hospitally
full of supplies. So they were rolling those
out. We were opening up the supply cabinets,
like filling up, you know, an empty trash bin,
all that kind of stuff. So everything and then
we just got outside and and out in North parking.
There were quite. a few wounded out there already.
I think the majority were actually on the other
side on the outside of the south area where the
plane crashed and I would say probably half our
folks had already gone in that direction to work
out there. So we got out of the building and
then it was a matter of trying to treat the people
that we had in front of us there. I do have some
pretty indelible mental images from there. I
mean, people had jumped out windows, people had
been thrown into walls by the blast, and then
just smoke inhalation, this can be so deadly
very quickly. So we did our best to treat the
people on the ground the best we could. And then
when we stopped getting ambulances, because they
had closed all the roads for security, our head
administrative guy, he wasn't a doc, but he was
right below the doc who was the commander, just
started getting people to take people to the
hospital and even commandeered someone's SUV
himself. And they'd pull up their cars or whatever,
we'd put all the seats down, slide the gurney
in the back with a medic and send them off to
the hospital. It really sounds like the team
came together and just did what needed to be
done And that was really something that always
attracted you to the military, was sort of that
higher team obligation, goal, mission. It sounds
like that's what happened that day. It really
did. I mean, was it a chaotic hot mess? Yes.
We always do the exact right thing, no, but we
did not have the supplies we needed and we were
just doing the best we could to keep people alive
until they could get to a higher level of care.
And it was, it was, yeah, it's one of those things
that I think if any of us had had the chance
to stop and think, people are falling apart,
but it's, you know, you train and you train and
you train and this is why. So that when you know
what hits the fan, you just, You just do. There's
also a personal side of this. I know in that
while this is going, you've got to be thinking
about your new husband. You've got to be thinking
about your mom and dad. There's no cell phone
service. And you're you're on the ground at the
Pentagon for what, 10, 12 hours? Yeah, I mean,
I was there till sometime between. like eight
and nine o 'clock that night. And at one point,
you know, we did have not quite quiet, but stiller
moments when we had done all we can do and we
were waiting. And it did occur to me, I'm like,
I don't know what my parents know. And at this
point, because all we knew was that New York
had been attacked, we had been attacked and there
was another plane in the air. Like I'm like,
I mean, did World War III just start? Like we
had no context to put all of this in. So I did
think about my husband Steve and I thought about
my parents, but also at the same time at that
moment there was nothing I could do about it.
I mean, eventually once we had taken care of
everyone we could outside, they asked us to go
back in the building just to cut through to get
to that center courtyard so that we could be
right behind where the plane had gone in. So
that way there were medical teams on both sides
of the wreckage. because they didn't know if
they were gonna find any further survivors, they
didn't know what direction they'd be easiest
to get them out. And they just basically wanted
to have medical teams ready on either side. So
we walked through and we got all set up and we
divided into our triage teams, like immediate
and delayed and things like that. We'll talk
about that a little bit in the book. And then
it was a matter of waiting to see who would come
out. And during that waiting time, someone who
did have a cell phone on them and had battery
was very generous and just pass their phone around
and let everybody make one quick call. Um, so
nobody could get through long distance though.
Multiple people tried and it was just completely,
it was, it was completely jammed. And it was
going to show like the times, but I happened
to have my Palm pilot in my lab coat pocket and
it had my, I remember thinking that was like
the height of technology. Um, I had my church's
phone number in it, and we were getting some
local calls through. So I called my church and
talked to the church secretary, who was a friend
of mine, and I gave her my parents' phone numbers.
And I said, can you just please keep calling
until you get through and tell them I'm alive
and ask them to email Steve in Saudi and tell
them I'm alive? Because I think that's probably
the fastest way we can get word to him. So I
got to talk to her, you know, for five minutes
and then I passed the phone on to my boss so
she could call her family. And so I did get that
chance to put word out. But, you know, she my
boss was a rock all day. And, you know, she my
direct supervisor and she's like a sister to
me now. And but when she she managed to get her
sister on the phone, she started to break a little
bit. And I realized I'd like, I was actually
grateful that I couldn't get a hold of my parents
because I think I might've been done after that.
You can hear the rest of the interview with Dr.
Gelvin on the veteran radio podcast that we put
up. She goes on to talk about her faith and how
she got through all this. Interesting story,
as I say, from somebody on the ground. We just
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