WEBVTT 00:00:05.160 --> 00:00:09.000 All across America and around the world, this 00:00:09.000 --> 00:00:15.140 is Veterans Radio. This is Veterans Radio. Good 00:00:15.140 --> 00:00:18.739 day. I'm Jim Fosson. I'm the Officer of the Deck 00:00:18.739 --> 00:00:21.179 today here on Veterans Radio and thanks for joining 00:00:21.179 --> 00:00:23.879 us. We've got some interesting stories for you. 00:00:24.059 --> 00:00:26.199 We always want to remind you, you can find more 00:00:26.199 --> 00:00:29.620 about Veterans Radio at its Facebook site or 00:00:29.620 --> 00:00:32.799 at the web, veteransradio .org, where we're on 00:00:32.799 --> 00:00:35.979 the web 24 -7. You can find a lot of our podcasts 00:00:35.979 --> 00:00:39.399 there as well. We post new ones every Tuesday, 00:00:39.539 --> 00:00:43.820 so you can get a new story, a new interview, 00:00:43.979 --> 00:00:47.799 something you didn't know before. going to veteransradio 00:00:47.799 --> 00:00:50.679 .org. And before we get started, we want to thank 00:00:50.679 --> 00:00:54.259 our sponsors. First up, we want to thank National 00:00:54.259 --> 00:00:59.719 Veteran Business Development Council, NVBDC .org. 00:00:59.939 --> 00:01:03.759 It was established to certify both service -disabled 00:01:03.759 --> 00:01:06.239 and veteran -owned businesses. You'll find out 00:01:06.239 --> 00:01:09.980 how they can help your business by going to NVBDC 00:01:09.980 --> 00:01:14.659 .org. We want to thank Legal Help for Veterans. 00:01:15.019 --> 00:01:18.939 Legal Help for Veterans fights for veterans disability 00:01:18.939 --> 00:01:22.060 rights all across the nation. You can reach them 00:01:22.060 --> 00:01:30.500 at 800 -693 -4800 or on the web at legalhelpforveterans 00:01:30.500 --> 00:01:36.180 .com. And finally, PuroClean. PuroClean is the 00:01:36.180 --> 00:01:38.760 paramedics of property damage. It provides water 00:01:38.760 --> 00:01:42.019 damage remediation, flood water removal, fire 00:01:42.019 --> 00:01:45.859 and smoke damage remediation, mold removal, biohazard 00:01:45.859 --> 00:01:50.900 cleanup. It also has a focus on veteran franchisees. 00:01:51.319 --> 00:01:54.359 You can learn more about them by going to PuroClean 00:01:54.359 --> 00:01:58.340 .com. Today's interviews are going to be interesting. 00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:03.439 We're going to talk to David Brown, self -reported 00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:06.159 smallest seal ever. If you've ever been told 00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:09.300 you're too small, you're not fast enough, can't 00:02:09.300 --> 00:02:12.449 jump high enough, you're not strong enough, this 00:02:12.449 --> 00:02:14.810 guy's story's inspiring and you want to listen 00:02:14.810 --> 00:02:18.669 in. And then later we're going to talk to retired 00:02:18.669 --> 00:02:23.189 Major Susan Gelvin, who was at the Pentagon on 00:02:23.189 --> 00:02:26.169 9 -11, she's a doctor, and she's going to tell 00:02:26.169 --> 00:02:30.849 us what their unit did that day. She ultimately 00:02:30.849 --> 00:02:33.229 received the Soldiers Medal for her efforts, 00:02:33.810 --> 00:02:35.590 even though she was in the United States Air 00:02:35.590 --> 00:02:39.289 Force. Interesting story, so listen in. We want 00:02:39.289 --> 00:02:41.930 to give you a little advance notice. We're going 00:02:41.930 --> 00:02:46.289 to have a Veterans Radio event on Sunday, September 00:02:46.289 --> 00:02:51.770 28th, 2025. Radio on the River. We're doing a 00:02:51.770 --> 00:02:55.189 new location on Freedom River in Livingston County, 00:02:55.229 --> 00:02:57.949 Michigan. We want you to save the date. We're 00:02:57.949 --> 00:02:59.750 going to have veteran storytelling and guest 00:02:59.750 --> 00:03:03.310 speakers. We'll have raffle items, great local 00:03:03.310 --> 00:03:07.110 musicians and food. Also, uniquely, there's going 00:03:07.110 --> 00:03:10.590 to be an opportunity to fly in a UH -1 Huey from 00:03:10.590 --> 00:03:13.610 the Michigan Flight Museum. And maybe you can 00:03:13.610 --> 00:03:17.719 also win a free ride that way. Plan on supporting 00:03:17.719 --> 00:03:21.719 Veterans Radio either by buying tickets or sponsoring 00:03:21.719 --> 00:03:27.780 Radio on the River. Contact us at daleatveteransradio 00:03:27.780 --> 00:03:31.740 .org or jimatveteransradio .org to get more information 00:03:31.740 --> 00:03:34.680 but we'd love to have you come out and we'd certainly 00:03:34.680 --> 00:03:37.280 love to have you sponsor. We want to welcome 00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:42.500 to Veterans Radio today David W. Brown, a Navy 00:03:42.500 --> 00:03:47.680 SEAL. in the 1980s. We're gonna talk about his 00:03:47.680 --> 00:03:49.699 life though, because I think there's a whole 00:03:49.699 --> 00:03:53.159 lot of life lessons in there, and we love giving 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:55.659 pearls of wisdom to our veteran radio listeners. 00:03:56.439 --> 00:03:59.719 David, welcome to Veterans Radio. Thank you for 00:03:59.719 --> 00:04:02.060 having me. I'm really excited to be here. Well, 00:04:02.139 --> 00:04:07.759 the book is titled Anne Goliath. You get the 00:04:07.759 --> 00:04:11.080 inside joke on this when you realize his first 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:14.409 name is David. And he's not the biggest, roughest, 00:04:14.509 --> 00:04:17.430 toughest guy you've ever met. So it's a David 00:04:17.430 --> 00:04:21.689 and Goliath story. And it's the subtitled, the 00:04:21.689 --> 00:04:24.850 littlest Navy SEALs inspirational story about 00:04:24.850 --> 00:04:28.389 living your biggest life. It's really a good 00:04:28.389 --> 00:04:34.410 read. And David, you were, you know, from the 00:04:34.410 --> 00:04:38.230 get go, your mom and dad, your genetics, you 00:04:38.230 --> 00:04:43.439 were never gonna be a big guy, were you? No, 00:04:43.439 --> 00:04:47.300 I started off small and stayed small and you 00:04:47.300 --> 00:04:51.540 know what, in the end, it's okay with me. Absolutely, 00:04:51.779 --> 00:04:54.759 it's all about a mindset and it's really about, 00:04:54.839 --> 00:04:59.680 your book is not the typical how to become a 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:04.939 Navy SEAL book or how to do leadership. It's 00:05:04.939 --> 00:05:08.100 really about talking about that kind of human 00:05:08.100 --> 00:05:12.620 condition. and being able to be resilient and 00:05:12.620 --> 00:05:16.579 getting through things and being persistent and 00:05:16.579 --> 00:05:22.420 having determination. But those were skills, 00:05:22.579 --> 00:05:29.079 whether they were inbred, genetic, was it nature 00:05:29.079 --> 00:05:32.699 or nurture. Talk to us about your early years 00:05:32.699 --> 00:05:38.500 of being the littlest guy in every class. I didn't 00:05:38.500 --> 00:05:40.500 know that I was going to be the littlest person 00:05:40.500 --> 00:05:43.439 going into even kindergarten or grade school. 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:48.240 It just happened that way and as I came, started 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:51.420 getting older, you know, and I advanced into 00:05:51.420 --> 00:05:54.120 the grades, the typical thing happens and when 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:55.879 you're the smallest person in the class you get 00:05:55.879 --> 00:06:00.600 picked on and I was picked on and one of the 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:04.189 very important moments in my life was when I 00:06:04.189 --> 00:06:06.870 ran home to my mom and I was crying and and I 00:06:06.870 --> 00:06:08.509 said you know the kids picking on me what do 00:06:08.509 --> 00:06:13.009 I do and she was a a fiery Irish redheaded woman 00:06:13.009 --> 00:06:15.389 and she picked me up on her knee and sat me down 00:06:15.389 --> 00:06:17.870 and said nobody's gonna pick on my little boy 00:06:17.870 --> 00:06:21.339 and she made me make a fist and and punch her 00:06:21.339 --> 00:06:24.220 hand and punch that she said now you you punch 00:06:24.220 --> 00:06:26.939 this is how you punch you do this and she did 00:06:26.939 --> 00:06:28.819 i did it several times so i was like laughing 00:06:28.819 --> 00:06:31.120 i'm like yes yes yes i'm gonna i'm gonna stick 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:33.100 up for myself and you know you go and you stick 00:06:33.100 --> 00:06:35.660 up for yourself you know you if somebody picks 00:06:35.660 --> 00:06:38.800 on you punch them right in the kisser and um 00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:41.519 so i went to school and as you can imagine i 00:06:41.519 --> 00:06:43.220 got in a fight with the kid that always picked 00:06:43.220 --> 00:06:46.660 on me and we you know we're third grade so it's 00:06:46.660 --> 00:06:49.100 not this is push and shove and punch this then 00:06:49.100 --> 00:06:52.649 then And then nobody really won the fight and 00:06:52.649 --> 00:06:55.430 we ended up becoming friends later on, but it 00:06:55.430 --> 00:06:59.230 was a big, it was a big influence for me and 00:06:59.230 --> 00:07:02.649 my mother helped me bring that confidence out 00:07:02.649 --> 00:07:04.569 that I could stick up for myself. It's not like 00:07:04.569 --> 00:07:06.550 I wanted to go out and get in a lot of fight, 00:07:07.230 --> 00:07:10.870 but that certainly things worth having were worth 00:07:10.870 --> 00:07:14.819 fighting for and That was the beginning if you 00:07:14.819 --> 00:07:18.839 will of how I was started building my confidence 00:07:18.839 --> 00:07:22.639 as even as a young as a child Yeah, you really 00:07:22.639 --> 00:07:25.879 at some point needs there's a couple of pearls 00:07:25.879 --> 00:07:29.019 of wisdom here what one is You need somebody 00:07:29.019 --> 00:07:31.420 who's got your back right in your instance. It 00:07:31.420 --> 00:07:35.160 was mom mom said it's okay to Let me show you 00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:38.180 how to throw a punch and if you're getting bullied 00:07:38.180 --> 00:07:42.420 Fight back. So it's important to have somebody 00:07:42.420 --> 00:07:46.759 in your corner and knowing when the second pearl 00:07:46.759 --> 00:07:49.819 of wisdom here is standing up for yourself, knowing 00:07:49.819 --> 00:07:53.579 when you've got to be the one, right? I mean, 00:07:53.879 --> 00:07:55.360 nobody else is going to come to your rescue. 00:07:55.459 --> 00:07:59.259 You've got to find it within yourself. Yeah, 00:07:59.639 --> 00:08:03.560 absolutely. that's the key. I think finding it 00:08:03.560 --> 00:08:06.500 within yourself, knowing that it's there and 00:08:06.500 --> 00:08:09.579 having a circumstance to bring that out is really 00:08:09.579 --> 00:08:13.620 important. That's where the nurture part of the 00:08:13.620 --> 00:08:17.399 nature and nurture comes in. You know, we all 00:08:17.399 --> 00:08:20.819 have abilities and skills that are inherent to 00:08:20.819 --> 00:08:24.879 us that we got from our ancestors. Your mother, 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:26.879 your father, and all your ancestors bring all 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:29.639 these things, qualities to you and you just have 00:08:29.639 --> 00:08:33.320 to get out there and live life so you can experience 00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:36.159 and how to focus on those things and be a better 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:39.740 person. Let me put some more context around this. 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:42.399 You grew up in what I would call coal country 00:08:42.399 --> 00:08:52.019 in Wilkboro, Pennsylvania. Your parents, as I 00:08:52.019 --> 00:08:55.899 say, were short in stature. You topped out at 00:08:55.899 --> 00:08:59.980 five foot three inches. were 110 pounds when 00:08:59.980 --> 00:09:05.059 you went into the Navy. But along the way, before 00:09:05.059 --> 00:09:08.620 you got there, you had these experiences that 00:09:08.620 --> 00:09:13.340 both from your parents, maybe grandparents, that 00:09:13.340 --> 00:09:16.539 sort of started to shape your life. And there's 00:09:16.539 --> 00:09:22.460 an analogy that you use about sheepdog that I 00:09:22.460 --> 00:09:25.279 hadn't heard before that I thought was really 00:09:25.279 --> 00:09:28.860 helpful to frame this. Tell us a little bit about 00:09:28.860 --> 00:09:33.000 that. And that came from some research I was 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:37.200 doing about why am I the protector? Why did I 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:40.519 go into law enforcement? Why did I go into the 00:09:40.519 --> 00:09:43.000 military? And during my research I found came 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:47.139 across a book called On Combat from Colonel Grossman 00:09:47.139 --> 00:09:51.919 and in it he explains how certain personalities 00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:55.860 exist in in our society and one of them being 00:09:55.860 --> 00:09:59.600 a sheep dog and the sheep dog is the one of is 00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:02.440 the protector now not you know the sheep don't 00:10:02.440 --> 00:10:04.799 particularly like the sheep dog sometimes but 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:06.519 you know what they're willing to live with the 00:10:06.519 --> 00:10:08.960 sheep dog and because they know the sheep dog 00:10:08.960 --> 00:10:12.519 can be there to help them help them if the wolf 00:10:12.519 --> 00:10:15.799 and that's the other factor in society you have 00:10:15.799 --> 00:10:17.399 the wolves that are going to prey on the sheep 00:10:17.399 --> 00:10:21.019 so when you talk about the sheep dog personality 00:10:21.019 --> 00:10:24.720 of mine that's where that analogy comes from 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:28.100 is from Colonel Grossman and it's a great story 00:10:28.100 --> 00:10:31.840 and I agree as soon as I read it I was like this 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:35.179 is spot -on because even today now that you know 00:10:35.179 --> 00:10:37.940 I've had a career in law enforcement I'm known 00:10:37.940 --> 00:10:41.240 even though I'm retired I'm known as the unofficial 00:10:41.240 --> 00:10:44.419 sheriff of my neighborhood because I'm the one 00:10:44.419 --> 00:10:48.159 who goes to the City Council and if there's some 00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:52.250 something a safety issue I'm I petition for it 00:10:52.250 --> 00:10:56.230 and I rally my neighbors and it's just some, 00:10:56.409 --> 00:11:00.990 it's just part of who I am. Now also to put context 00:11:00.990 --> 00:11:03.909 into this, I believe you were one of five kids. 00:11:05.929 --> 00:11:09.049 You somehow convinced yourself you could fly 00:11:09.049 --> 00:11:11.590 and you tried a few, jumping off a few things 00:11:11.590 --> 00:11:14.370 to, until you proved to yourself this is a bad 00:11:14.370 --> 00:11:18.809 idea. but you also got yourself scuba qualified 00:11:18.809 --> 00:11:24.610 at eight years old. You had a lot of confidence 00:11:24.610 --> 00:11:30.210 in some of these areas and in some regards, I 00:11:30.210 --> 00:11:33.889 think you are telling us confidence trumps maybe 00:11:33.889 --> 00:11:43.210 IQ. Sometimes for the bad side of that. As you 00:11:43.210 --> 00:11:45.490 mentioned, I tried to jump off a wall with cardboard 00:11:45.490 --> 00:11:48.850 wings, thinking I would fly because I had dreams 00:11:48.850 --> 00:11:52.470 about flying. And I quickly found out that you 00:11:52.470 --> 00:11:56.470 cannot fly with cardboard wings. So confidence 00:11:56.470 --> 00:12:00.049 is great, but it needs to be coupled with common 00:12:00.049 --> 00:12:05.769 sense. As a child, I pushed, let's just put it 00:12:05.769 --> 00:12:07.909 this way, when I saw things that were dangerous, 00:12:08.429 --> 00:12:12.330 that was a moderator for me. So I was often in 00:12:12.330 --> 00:12:15.629 the hospital getting stitches, sprain, bumps, 00:12:15.909 --> 00:12:19.889 bruises. And that's just, again, is another personality 00:12:19.889 --> 00:12:23.470 trait. One of those personality traits that I 00:12:23.470 --> 00:12:28.190 think you inherited or got from somewhere is 00:12:28.190 --> 00:12:31.269 you were really adverse to quitting anything. 00:12:32.330 --> 00:12:34.470 you know jump off the roof once it didn't work 00:12:34.470 --> 00:12:36.269 okay i'm making a different set of wings let 00:12:36.269 --> 00:12:39.230 me try it again you weren't a quitter in any 00:12:39.230 --> 00:12:43.070 shape or form were you and now it happened once 00:12:43.070 --> 00:12:45.950 and uh if you recall and there was the football 00:12:45.950 --> 00:12:50.309 story i decided uh in at 80 pounds i was gonna 00:12:50.309 --> 00:12:53.129 try out for the football team in junior high 00:12:53.129 --> 00:12:57.470 school and 80 pound kid playing football against 00:12:57.470 --> 00:13:00.929 100 200 pound kids didn't go well for me and 00:13:00.919 --> 00:13:04.620 I quit the team and it was it was absolutely 00:13:04.620 --> 00:13:08.139 devastating for me. It took it took over a year 00:13:08.139 --> 00:13:10.779 really to get over the fact that I was a quitter 00:13:10.779 --> 00:13:14.940 and that had such a influence on me going forward 00:13:14.940 --> 00:13:17.179 that I swore to myself I was never going to quit 00:13:17.179 --> 00:13:21.220 anything again and and I haven't I simply have 00:13:21.220 --> 00:13:26.299 not. If I take on a task and even if it's difficult 00:13:26.299 --> 00:13:29.830 and I don't do well I learn You know, I learn 00:13:29.830 --> 00:13:32.509 from my experiences and I go forward I don't 00:13:32.509 --> 00:13:35.990 look at it as a failure and if you can never 00:13:35.990 --> 00:13:39.470 fail it in your life if you look at every single 00:13:39.470 --> 00:13:43.090 experience as a learning opportunity, so That's 00:13:43.090 --> 00:13:45.309 that old, you know, it's not getting knocked 00:13:45.309 --> 00:13:47.529 down isn't the failure the failure is failing 00:13:47.529 --> 00:13:51.889 to get back up So as long and you were very persistent 00:13:51.889 --> 00:13:57.149 and determined to always get back up 100 % spot 00:13:57.149 --> 00:14:01.509 -on And you write about success, failures, and 00:14:01.509 --> 00:14:04.789 focus. And I think this is, you know, the first 00:14:04.789 --> 00:14:08.870 part of this book is so important for anybody 00:14:08.870 --> 00:14:13.549 maybe to give to, as I said, the grandkids, their 00:14:13.549 --> 00:14:16.769 nieces and nephews, their own kids, about look 00:14:16.769 --> 00:14:19.549 at if you maybe feel like you're too small, you're 00:14:19.549 --> 00:14:21.509 scrawny, you're bullied, you're an outsider. 00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:25.039 but your story's really about overcoming all 00:14:25.039 --> 00:14:27.940 that, even when people told you, you're too small, 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:30.500 you're too weak, you're a poor runner, you'll 00:14:30.500 --> 00:14:32.379 never make it in the Navy, you'll never make 00:14:32.379 --> 00:14:35.639 it in the SEALs. Talk to us a little bit about 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:38.720 the mountain you faced as you climbed up it, 00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:43.700 ultimately, to graduate BUDs and become a Navy 00:14:43.700 --> 00:14:48.919 SEAL. Oh, you're absolutely right. My whole life, 00:14:49.460 --> 00:14:52.240 leading up to before I went into the Navy, I 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:54.419 was always told, you're too small for this, you're 00:14:54.419 --> 00:14:57.679 too small for that. You don't get picked in grade 00:14:57.679 --> 00:15:02.480 school for the teams. And then when I was finally 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:04.980 get to the point where I'm trying to decide what 00:15:04.980 --> 00:15:07.179 I'm gonna do with my life in high school. And 00:15:07.179 --> 00:15:11.759 I went to the Navy recruiter and found out that 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:14.899 there was the thing called UDT underwater demolition 00:15:14.899 --> 00:15:17.360 team and SEAL teams. And I'd never heard of it 00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:20.960 before. It was in a book that he gave me of job 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:23.679 descriptions for the Navy. And so I read that 00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:26.039 and I said, well, this is this is it. I have 00:15:26.039 --> 00:15:28.919 to do this. And, you know, I was really into 00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:32.220 Jacques Cousteau. I was into James Bond and Speed 00:15:32.220 --> 00:15:35.139 Racer and all those shows back in the day. And, 00:15:35.259 --> 00:15:36.919 you know, I read this and I said, wow, I'm going 00:15:36.919 --> 00:15:39.320 to be Jacques Cousteau and a machine gun. I'm 00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:41.879 this is everything I want to do in life. And 00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:43.820 I went to the recruiter said, this is it. I'm 00:15:43.820 --> 00:15:46.480 going to be a UDT seal. And he just looked at 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:49.679 me and he had a kind a wrinkle forehead he said 00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:55.460 no no you're not no these are UDT seals are big 00:15:55.460 --> 00:15:59.100 strong guys you are not and you are not gonna 00:15:59.100 --> 00:16:01.139 make it you need to pick something you can really 00:16:01.139 --> 00:16:06.720 do now now he was talking to a guy who had been 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:08.960 who had been told he's too small to do this his 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:13.070 entire life so I went but I I respected his opinion. 00:16:13.190 --> 00:16:15.269 I went home. I read everything else in the book. 00:16:15.289 --> 00:16:17.929 I came back within the next couple days and I 00:16:17.929 --> 00:16:20.669 said, no, this is what I'm going to do and that's 00:16:20.669 --> 00:16:25.970 it. Sign me up. It's not that easy, is it though? 00:16:29.309 --> 00:16:33.190 For me to make the decision was easy to go forward 00:16:33.190 --> 00:16:38.750 with it. Of course not. I was terrified. Here's 00:16:38.750 --> 00:16:41.070 the funny thing or the interesting thing about 00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:43.980 why people don't do things is because they're 00:16:43.980 --> 00:16:47.340 afraid of the unknown and they're afraid of failure. 00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:50.639 And of course I was, I was afraid of the unknown 00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:52.799 and I've never been out of Pennsylvania. I didn't 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:54.820 know anything about anything at 17 years old, 00:16:55.019 --> 00:16:57.240 joined in the Navy. And then I picked probably 00:16:57.240 --> 00:17:00.779 the hardest job in the Navy to do, physically 00:17:00.779 --> 00:17:05.789 at least. And I was afraid, but that's That's 00:17:05.789 --> 00:17:08.869 life. Everything is a challenge and especially 00:17:08.869 --> 00:17:11.769 the things that you don't know that you can accomplish 00:17:11.769 --> 00:17:14.450 is even more of a challenge. But that shouldn't 00:17:14.450 --> 00:17:17.769 stop you. You have a phrase in here which I wrote 00:17:17.769 --> 00:17:20.190 down and I want you to expand on a little bit 00:17:20.190 --> 00:17:24.750 about the loss, the battle within the prison 00:17:24.750 --> 00:17:29.089 of the mind. It's an interesting concept because 00:17:29.089 --> 00:17:33.059 it goes back to what you just said about Being 00:17:33.059 --> 00:17:35.019 afraid to try something because I already figured 00:17:35.019 --> 00:17:37.259 I've already convinced myself. I can't do that, 00:17:37.299 --> 00:17:43.200 right? Yes Absolutely, and that's that's the 00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:47.779 that's the first hurdle to the as you The first 00:17:47.779 --> 00:17:50.859 step on the yellow brick road, right? You can't 00:17:50.859 --> 00:17:54.019 go get to anywhere if you don't get that out 00:17:54.019 --> 00:17:57.180 of that to get over the challenge in your own 00:17:57.180 --> 00:17:59.460 mind that there's a possibility that you could 00:17:59.460 --> 00:18:04.809 succeed and there's plenty of examples I use 00:18:04.809 --> 00:18:08.230 but for me when I was for instance in going through 00:18:08.230 --> 00:18:13.069 SEAL training my biggest challenge was running 00:18:13.069 --> 00:18:15.869 I was a very slow runner my inseam is 28 you 00:18:15.869 --> 00:18:20.210 know so you gotta step twice as much to get to 00:18:20.210 --> 00:18:23.950 the tall guy at 6 '2 exactly I'm practically 00:18:23.950 --> 00:18:26.609 in a sprint the whole time when they're jogging 00:18:26.609 --> 00:18:30.009 and so I felt behind often and often and they 00:18:30.009 --> 00:18:32.539 did all kinds of it's called a goon squad and 00:18:32.539 --> 00:18:34.519 they made me do all these crazy exercises and 00:18:34.519 --> 00:18:36.420 all the guys that fell behind were in the goon 00:18:36.420 --> 00:18:39.920 squad until finally I was on a run and I felt 00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:43.259 was falling behind again and and this was the 00:18:43.259 --> 00:18:46.680 do or die situation for me in SEAL training is 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:51.460 I was either going to catch up and be the person 00:18:51.460 --> 00:18:54.319 that I needed to be in order to succeed or I 00:18:54.319 --> 00:18:57.539 was going to quit and I was going to fail and 00:18:57.539 --> 00:19:01.670 as I mentioned that is not in my you know vocabulary 00:19:01.670 --> 00:19:05.190 even then and so I had this I want to say it 00:19:05.190 --> 00:19:07.569 is outer body experience where I just couldn't 00:19:07.569 --> 00:19:10.049 even feel my body anymore I convinced myself 00:19:10.049 --> 00:19:12.670 I was going to physically be able to catch up 00:19:12.670 --> 00:19:15.230 with them and I did and I caught up with the 00:19:15.230 --> 00:19:19.210 group and I and so we go back to what you just 00:19:19.210 --> 00:19:22.589 mentioned how do you unlock the limitations in 00:19:22.589 --> 00:19:25.769 your own mind that you can't do something And 00:19:25.769 --> 00:19:27.730 when you're faced with something like a life 00:19:27.730 --> 00:19:30.609 or death situation that I felt I was in, that's 00:19:30.609 --> 00:19:34.509 when the true colors come out. The other thing 00:19:34.509 --> 00:19:40.890 buried in that story is having, and mentor may 00:19:40.890 --> 00:19:44.329 be too strong a word, but having somebody again 00:19:44.329 --> 00:19:49.150 who has faith in you who can tell you. tricks 00:19:49.150 --> 00:19:52.150 of the trade which is one of the things you got 00:19:52.150 --> 00:19:54.890 about how to run in sand and I really thought 00:19:54.890 --> 00:19:58.890 like there's somebody who's trying to help you 00:19:58.890 --> 00:20:02.569 even though they're a pretty rough exterior talk 00:20:02.569 --> 00:20:07.710 a little bit about how that helped keep you moving 00:20:07.710 --> 00:20:11.549 through the process I was very lucky to have 00:20:11.549 --> 00:20:14.430 a mentor when I checked into seal training and 00:20:14.430 --> 00:20:18.720 he was another guy short guy about five, six, 00:20:18.819 --> 00:20:23.599 his name was Senior Chief Kosini, Filipino, and 00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:26.839 he took me aside from the very first day and 00:20:26.839 --> 00:20:30.859 said, you know, Dave. Brown, this is how you're 00:20:30.859 --> 00:20:32.640 going to have to, what you're going to have to 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.140 do in order to make it through training. And 00:20:35.140 --> 00:20:37.359 as I said, I didn't know anything about SEAL 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:40.000 training. And so he was there to show me how 00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:44.539 to do the exercises, how to run in soft sand. 00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:46.619 And he actually took me out and he worked with 00:20:46.619 --> 00:20:51.470 me for a few weeks. I checked into training a 00:20:51.470 --> 00:20:53.450 couple weeks early, so I had a little bit of 00:20:53.450 --> 00:20:56.390 time for him to show me how to do things, because 00:20:56.390 --> 00:20:59.730 as you mentioned, there are nuances to everything 00:20:59.730 --> 00:21:04.210 that can make it easier in a way that you can 00:21:04.210 --> 00:21:06.130 get through. If he wasn't there to show me all 00:21:06.130 --> 00:21:07.950 the little nuances, like you said, like running 00:21:07.950 --> 00:21:11.769 in soft sand, step in the marks of the person 00:21:11.769 --> 00:21:15.809 in front of you, run in the person's footsteps. 00:21:16.759 --> 00:21:19.420 What that did, I mean, physically, it may be 00:21:19.420 --> 00:21:22.420 lengthen my stride, right? So number one, that 00:21:22.420 --> 00:21:25.880 helped. But mentally, when you're running in 00:21:25.880 --> 00:21:29.059 the footprints of the person that's making it 00:21:29.059 --> 00:21:33.500 and succeeding, that actually is that momentum 00:21:33.500 --> 00:21:37.380 is pulling you forward. And instead of you. Pushing 00:21:37.380 --> 00:21:39.839 yourself. Well, and I think that again that's 00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:41.839 one of when you read this book. It's really about 00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:45.400 the human condition The book is titled and Goliath 00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:51.140 by David Brown It it focuses you on some you 00:21:51.140 --> 00:21:54.279 know sort of basic rules of life and one is don't 00:21:54.279 --> 00:21:57.440 be afraid to take a little help and There's always 00:21:57.440 --> 00:22:00.539 a new answers always the people before you have 00:22:00.539 --> 00:22:04.759 always learned a way to get through it glean 00:22:04.759 --> 00:22:07.259 some information to them and your journey will 00:22:07.259 --> 00:22:11.299 be a little easier won't it? Absolutely and you're 00:22:11.299 --> 00:22:14.140 very lucky if you can have that type of mentor 00:22:14.140 --> 00:22:17.799 and I tried to be that person throughout the 00:22:17.799 --> 00:22:21.099 rest of my career helping the people that I hired 00:22:21.099 --> 00:22:24.900 and as special agents and investigators and I 00:22:24.900 --> 00:22:28.539 always told everyone even the first day I was 00:22:28.539 --> 00:22:30.440 hired them I'd bring them in my office and say 00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:33.559 look I hired you because I feel you have the 00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:36.799 ability to replace me and that's my job is to 00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:39.940 make you good enough to be able to take my job. 00:22:41.259 --> 00:22:43.599 You have a couple of other phrases in here that 00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:46.539 that I wrote down because I think they help everybody 00:22:46.539 --> 00:22:51.779 understand things. One was bad never lasts forever. 00:22:52.940 --> 00:22:56.180 And that's important to link back up to the prisoner 00:22:56.180 --> 00:22:58.779 of the mind, right? The games that's going on 00:22:58.779 --> 00:23:01.779 inside your own brain, like, I'll never get through 00:23:01.779 --> 00:23:04.779 this, it's horrible, this is a bad situation, 00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:09.420 but it doesn't last forever, does it? No, it 00:23:09.420 --> 00:23:12.819 doesn't. And in training, budge training, the 00:23:12.819 --> 00:23:16.119 way you get through six months of hell is you 00:23:16.119 --> 00:23:19.059 break it down into what we called evolutions. 00:23:19.460 --> 00:23:22.619 And there were many evolutions in in the day, 00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:27.279 some worse than others, but we always knew mentally 00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:30.500 that that particular evolution was going to end, 00:23:30.779 --> 00:23:33.319 no matter how cold it was, no matter how hot, 00:23:34.180 --> 00:23:38.579 nasty, wet, that when the clock reached noon 00:23:38.579 --> 00:23:42.680 or whatever, one, two o 'clock, when that time 00:23:42.680 --> 00:23:47.640 ended, the bad was going to be over. survive 00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:50.140 that evolution and then then you went on to the 00:23:50.140 --> 00:23:52.339 next evolution and then the next one but if you 00:23:52.339 --> 00:23:55.720 put them all together it was this giant ball 00:23:55.720 --> 00:24:00.920 of of of drama that you could never get out from 00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:03.180 underneath knowing that you were going to have 00:24:03.180 --> 00:24:06.720 to survive six months of what you were enduring 00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:09.380 at that moment you had to know that it was going 00:24:09.380 --> 00:24:14.339 to end and just endure the moment don't get too 00:24:14.339 --> 00:24:16.779 far ahead of yourself And again, this is one 00:24:16.779 --> 00:24:19.000 of these life lessons on the human condition. 00:24:19.660 --> 00:24:23.079 Right now may not be great, but don't let your 00:24:23.079 --> 00:24:27.420 mind spin out so far out you can't get through 00:24:27.420 --> 00:24:30.359 it. You've gotta get through the evolution as 00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:32.660 you talk about sucking up and get through the 00:24:32.660 --> 00:24:35.299 evolution. Now, we're gonna run out of time and 00:24:35.299 --> 00:24:38.000 this always happens to me because I really enjoyed 00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:40.440 this book and all the little wisdom in it. But 00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:43.960 you were in the SEALs, you were in the Navy for, 00:24:43.960 --> 00:24:48.160 I think, about seven, eight years. You then went 00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:50.579 into law enforcement. You were a special agent 00:24:50.579 --> 00:24:53.559 with the National Criminal Investigative Services, 00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:58.900 NCIS. I'm sure you must have been Mark Harmon's 00:24:58.900 --> 00:25:03.349 inspiration for the popular TV show. If you could 00:25:03.349 --> 00:25:06.750 have only got the royalties, right? You then 00:25:06.750 --> 00:25:10.789 left NCIS and took a leadership position at the 00:25:10.789 --> 00:25:14.009 Environmental Protection Agency's Criminal Investigative 00:25:14.009 --> 00:25:19.609 Division, or CID. So from a scrawny little kid 00:25:19.609 --> 00:25:23.049 in Pennsylvania, this isn't a life you could 00:25:23.049 --> 00:25:28.329 have ever imagined, was it? No, not at all. When 00:25:28.329 --> 00:25:30.269 I got out of the Navy, I remember saying if I 00:25:30.269 --> 00:25:34.089 could just make $30 ,000 a year, I would be set 00:25:34.089 --> 00:25:43.210 and I could retire. Now it won't buy a car. I 00:25:43.210 --> 00:25:45.230 said to myself, I'm going to get my college degree 00:25:45.230 --> 00:25:46.970 when I was in the Navy and I did. I went to night 00:25:46.970 --> 00:25:50.769 school and I got my degree and I was going to 00:25:50.769 --> 00:25:54.269 get out of the Navy and wear a suit and carry 00:25:54.269 --> 00:25:58.609 a gun was what I used to say. And so I did that. 00:25:58.750 --> 00:26:02.859 I went out and With the same fervor as going 00:26:02.859 --> 00:26:05.819 to become a Navy SEAL, I attacked being a special 00:26:05.819 --> 00:26:10.119 agent, and I think I did really well. In the 00:26:10.119 --> 00:26:14.200 end, I advanced through the ranks from, in the 00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:17.599 government terms, GS7, pay grade, all the way 00:26:17.599 --> 00:26:24.339 to where I retired as a senior executive. And 00:26:24.339 --> 00:26:27.019 part of this is I want to get across to people 00:26:27.019 --> 00:26:30.000 that you'll David's very candid in the book. 00:26:30.579 --> 00:26:32.779 There's a lot of heartbreak along the way, both 00:26:32.779 --> 00:26:40.299 personal, marriage -wise, and all of that's in 00:26:40.299 --> 00:26:43.160 all of our lives, but some of the things you 00:26:43.160 --> 00:26:48.920 earned early on in your life, pre -Navy, during 00:26:48.920 --> 00:26:52.460 the sealed time, I suspect those lessons helped 00:26:52.460 --> 00:26:55.339 you get through the hard times in the rest of 00:26:55.339 --> 00:27:00.440 life. Absolutely, there are physical challenge 00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:03.299 and then there are personal challenges and mental 00:27:03.299 --> 00:27:08.019 challenges and I don't know which is more difficult 00:27:08.019 --> 00:27:10.140 as I mentioned at you know certainly the beginning 00:27:10.140 --> 00:27:14.440 of the book there's a death and I say something 00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:18.359 to the effect that nothing I had experienced 00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:23.319 in the Navy or in budge training or as a special 00:27:23.319 --> 00:27:28.379 agent prepared me to deal with the death. And 00:27:28.379 --> 00:27:31.539 that was hard. It was hard. And it really took 00:27:31.539 --> 00:27:35.400 me to go back and remember the situations that 00:27:35.400 --> 00:27:38.059 I had faced, the difficult ones, and said, well, 00:27:38.059 --> 00:27:39.819 if I can get through that, I can get through 00:27:39.819 --> 00:27:42.339 this. As we mentioned, it's another evolution. 00:27:43.140 --> 00:27:47.259 It's not the most pleasant, but it's just another 00:27:47.259 --> 00:27:51.309 evolution in life. Well, David Brown, you've 00:27:51.309 --> 00:27:55.210 had a great career path. I think it's inspirational. 00:27:57.309 --> 00:28:01.589 The story Anne Goliath is available from all 00:28:01.589 --> 00:28:04.549 booksellers online and elsewhere. And I really 00:28:04.549 --> 00:28:07.910 think it's useful, a useful read for those who 00:28:07.910 --> 00:28:10.750 may be struggling or have family members or friends 00:28:10.750 --> 00:28:14.710 who are struggling with. sort of all the outside 00:28:14.710 --> 00:28:17.650 negativity they get about, you can't do this, 00:28:17.710 --> 00:28:20.170 you can't do that, you do this, you do that. 00:28:21.150 --> 00:28:22.930 There's a lot of wisdom in here, and I think 00:28:22.930 --> 00:28:26.190 you did a great job of bringing that forward 00:28:26.190 --> 00:28:31.750 in. And Goliath, which is a, oh, I had it here 00:28:31.750 --> 00:28:36.089 somewhere. Double Dagger is the publisher, I 00:28:36.089 --> 00:28:41.029 believe. Yes. Well, thank you for spending some 00:28:41.029 --> 00:28:45.430 time with Veterans Radio today, David, and wish 00:28:45.430 --> 00:28:47.950 you nothing but best of luck on the book and 00:28:47.950 --> 00:28:51.950 in the future. Thank you for having me and shout 00:28:51.950 --> 00:28:53.930 out to all the veterans, all the great job you 00:28:53.930 --> 00:28:56.990 do out there. It's a safer world because of you. 00:28:57.549 --> 00:28:59.869 Military veterans touch everyone's life. I'm 00:28:59.869 --> 00:29:01.730 guessing right now you're thinking of a veteran, 00:29:02.049 --> 00:29:05.289 a close friend, relative. Maybe it's you. Even 00:29:05.289 --> 00:29:07.769 the toughest of us sometimes need help, but don't 00:29:07.769 --> 00:29:09.789 know where to turn for support. You don't need 00:29:09.789 --> 00:29:11.650 special training to help a veteran in your life. 00:29:11.930 --> 00:29:14.509 Even small actions can make a world of difference. 00:29:14.890 --> 00:29:17.069 If you know a veteran in crisis, please call 00:29:17.069 --> 00:29:22.190 the Veterans Crisis Line, 800 -273 -8255. 800 00:29:22.190 --> 00:29:26.210 -273 -8255. A message from the U .S. Department 00:29:26.210 --> 00:29:28.990 of Veterans Affairs. If you have a VA claim denied 00:29:28.990 --> 00:29:31.210 by the Board of Veterans' Appeals, contact Legal 00:29:31.210 --> 00:29:35.789 Help for Veterans at 1 -800 -693 -4800. They're 00:29:35.789 --> 00:29:37.950 experts in handling cases before the U .S. Court 00:29:37.950 --> 00:29:39.950 of Appeals for Veterans' claims. Their number 00:29:39.950 --> 00:29:44.089 again, 1 -800 -693 -4800. We're going to hear 00:29:44.089 --> 00:29:47.190 now from a doctor who was at the Pentagon on 00:29:47.190 --> 00:29:51.789 9 -11. You're going to find Major Susan Gelvin's 00:29:51.789 --> 00:29:55.769 story riveting and probably bring back some memories 00:29:55.769 --> 00:29:59.819 for you as well. about that fateful day. She 00:29:59.819 --> 00:30:03.519 ultimately received the soldiers medal for her 00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:05.619 activities that day, even though she's from the 00:30:05.619 --> 00:30:08.180 United States Air Force. So listen in. We want 00:30:08.180 --> 00:30:11.960 to welcome to Veterans Radio today, Susan C. 00:30:12.140 --> 00:30:15.319 Gelvin, United States Air Force, retired as a 00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:19.400 major, has an interesting military story, and 00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:23.160 she was in the Pentagon on 9 -11. Susan, welcome 00:30:23.160 --> 00:30:28.319 to Veterans Radio. Thank you so much. It's really 00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:30.900 an honor to be asked to be here. Well, you have 00:30:30.900 --> 00:30:34.759 a unique story that should be told and we hope 00:30:34.759 --> 00:30:38.019 our veteran radio listeners find some new facts 00:30:38.019 --> 00:30:40.019 here that maybe they didn't know about what went 00:30:40.019 --> 00:30:42.720 on after the plane crashed into the Pentagon. 00:30:43.200 --> 00:30:46.740 But let's start with more basic stuff. How did 00:30:46.740 --> 00:30:49.619 a nice kid like you from Massachusetts end up 00:30:49.619 --> 00:30:53.970 in the Air Force? You know, it's funny because 00:30:53.970 --> 00:30:58.230 my dad had served He actually his service landed 00:30:58.230 --> 00:31:01.609 kind of between wars He was a radar technician 00:31:01.609 --> 00:31:04.710 and spent some time in Libya, but he never ever 00:31:04.710 --> 00:31:08.890 talked about it and it didn't come up until I 00:31:08.890 --> 00:31:11.970 was you know getting ready to apply for colleges 00:31:11.970 --> 00:31:14.490 so but that point we had moved from Massachusetts 00:31:14.490 --> 00:31:17.089 to California because his company had transferred 00:31:17.089 --> 00:31:21.480 him out and my dad was like well have you ever 00:31:21.480 --> 00:31:23.819 thought about you know joining the military and 00:31:23.819 --> 00:31:26.240 they could pay for your education and you know 00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:28.380 you think about the academy and things like that 00:31:28.380 --> 00:31:31.859 and I have to admit like I've always been kind 00:31:31.859 --> 00:31:36.440 of a rule follower and just thinking like I felt 00:31:36.440 --> 00:31:39.960 like I'd fit in well with just the military way 00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:44.359 of life but I really wanted to be a physician. 00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:48.079 And just the more we looked into it, the more 00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:50.000 we thought, well then maybe the Academy wasn't 00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:52.460 the way to go because, you know, they definitely 00:31:52.460 --> 00:31:55.460 can put some restrictions, what you do after 00:31:55.460 --> 00:31:59.500 the Academy. So, you know, I was applying to 00:31:59.500 --> 00:32:02.299 various colleges and programs and looking at 00:32:02.299 --> 00:32:07.259 ROTC. And I ended up being accepted into a six 00:32:07.259 --> 00:32:09.839 year program where I essentially did my bachelor's 00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:12.750 and my medical degree in six years. which meant 00:32:12.750 --> 00:32:17.109 I was only in college physically for two. When 00:32:17.109 --> 00:32:21.170 I signed up for Air Force ROTC at RPI, which 00:32:21.170 --> 00:32:25.170 was my undergrad, I got there and the officers 00:32:25.170 --> 00:32:27.049 in charge looked at my program and they're like, 00:32:27.130 --> 00:32:30.690 you're doing what? They have three -year scholarships 00:32:30.690 --> 00:32:32.789 and four -year scholarships for ROTC, but they 00:32:32.789 --> 00:32:34.130 just didn't know what to do with this two -year 00:32:34.130 --> 00:32:37.000 program. And so they said, well, we really don't 00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:40.400 think we can help you for college. But when you 00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:42.319 get to med school, there's a whole other program. 00:32:42.380 --> 00:32:46.319 So I decided to stay in ROTC, even though I wasn't 00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:48.400 a scholarship cadet, just because I figured, 00:32:48.579 --> 00:32:50.440 well, if I'm going to sign up for the military, 00:32:50.599 --> 00:32:52.140 I should probably know what I'm getting into. 00:32:53.079 --> 00:32:55.839 And I loved it. Some of the best friends I've 00:32:55.839 --> 00:32:59.579 ever made were in Air Force ROTC. And I loved 00:32:59.579 --> 00:33:02.680 the joint mission. I loved the idea of serving 00:33:02.680 --> 00:33:06.880 my country. And you know, I also learned that 00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:08.819 docs kind of get of a bad rep in the military 00:33:08.819 --> 00:33:12.180 of not being real officers. And I decided, well, 00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:14.380 I was gonna do the best I could to be a real 00:33:14.380 --> 00:33:17.619 officer, even if I was just a doctor. Even if, 00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:21.619 so you ended up getting your medical degree from 00:33:21.619 --> 00:33:25.019 Albany Medical College in coordination with Rensselaer 00:33:25.019 --> 00:33:31.210 Poly. Tech Institute or RPI in short order and 00:33:31.210 --> 00:33:35.730 came out as a freshly minted captain. Where did 00:33:35.730 --> 00:33:38.049 you do your residency and how did your military 00:33:38.049 --> 00:33:43.089 career proceed? So with that scholarship program 00:33:43.089 --> 00:33:46.269 you have the option to apply for a civilian deferral 00:33:46.269 --> 00:33:49.349 to do a civilian residency. But again, I was 00:33:49.349 --> 00:33:51.490 like, well, for a penny and for a pound. And 00:33:51.490 --> 00:33:54.930 I got into the family medicine residency at Andrews 00:33:54.930 --> 00:33:58.890 Air Force Base down in Maryland. And so my first 00:33:58.890 --> 00:34:01.950 day of active duty, I was a brand new captain 00:34:01.950 --> 00:34:04.349 and a brand new doctor. And my first rotation 00:34:04.349 --> 00:34:07.910 was on the labor and delivery ward. And I learned 00:34:07.910 --> 00:34:15.139 very quickly that most average officers and who 00:34:15.139 --> 00:34:17.360 aren't in the medical field see those captain's 00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:19.840 bars and assume a lot about you that may or may 00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:22.719 not be true. It really is a baptism of life. 00:34:22.739 --> 00:34:25.920 This captain, this doctor, she must know a lot 00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:28.260 to be here, right? Little did they know it was 00:34:28.260 --> 00:34:33.360 the first week. Yep, first week wearing the uniform 00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:35.659 every day other than some summer tours I had 00:34:35.659 --> 00:34:40.239 done in med school. So it was like jumping into 00:34:40.239 --> 00:34:43.860 two deep end pools at the same time. Well one 00:34:43.860 --> 00:34:46.719 of the things that is always interesting in talking 00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:50.760 to people is particularly those who go through 00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:54.099 ROTC. I don't think I've ever talked to anybody 00:34:54.099 --> 00:34:56.780 who didn't go through that process and felt it 00:34:56.780 --> 00:35:01.039 was really powerful in shaping them and in giving 00:35:01.039 --> 00:35:03.599 them insight into the military. I don't think 00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:06.219 we talked to our kids enough about this. Was 00:35:06.219 --> 00:35:09.380 ROTC something that your dad pushed or just something 00:35:09.380 --> 00:35:13.099 that you saw as Hey, I'm interested in this field. 00:35:13.099 --> 00:35:16.280 I'm going to get in knee deep. Suddenly, we were 00:35:16.280 --> 00:35:18.099 looking for how are we going to pay for this 00:35:18.099 --> 00:35:19.960 for college and med school because the six -year 00:35:19.960 --> 00:35:21.659 programming in these schools were expensive. 00:35:22.139 --> 00:35:25.420 That's how it started. But I got to tell you 00:35:25.420 --> 00:35:28.119 in very short order, pretty much by the end of 00:35:28.119 --> 00:35:30.280 what we called our little cadet boot camp before 00:35:30.280 --> 00:35:31.980 freshman year of college started, I was like, 00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:36.159 these are my people. Well, it's good to feel 00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:38.659 that grounded going into college certainly and 00:35:38.659 --> 00:35:41.559 I should mention that you served on active duty 00:35:41.559 --> 00:35:48.360 from 1998 to 2005 you did some reserve time while 00:35:48.360 --> 00:35:52.980 you were in med school back 94 through up to 00:35:52.980 --> 00:35:55.880 98 and then you did a year in reserves afterwards 00:35:55.880 --> 00:35:59.940 when you finally got out as a major because of 00:35:59.940 --> 00:36:03.699 family dynamics and decisions So you've got a 00:36:03.699 --> 00:36:09.659 good decade or more of service here, and tell 00:36:09.659 --> 00:36:13.739 us how you came to be at the Pentagon on September 00:36:13.739 --> 00:36:20.170 11th of 2001. Well, my husband and I had just 00:36:20.170 --> 00:36:23.309 gotten married Okay, you snuck that snuck that 00:36:23.309 --> 00:36:26.610 in let's tell them where you've met your husband 00:36:26.610 --> 00:36:31.489 So I met my husband at Andrew's he at the time 00:36:31.489 --> 00:36:38.409 was also a family physician and We we got married 00:36:38.409 --> 00:36:41.579 and Obviously, since I'd be graduating residency, 00:36:41.699 --> 00:36:44.360 I'd be finishing my assignment at Andrews, and 00:36:44.360 --> 00:36:48.659 he wasn't really in the assignment cycle for 00:36:48.659 --> 00:36:51.500 him to move yet. Since we were married, they 00:36:51.500 --> 00:36:56.380 assigned me to an open slot at the DeLorenzo 00:36:56.380 --> 00:36:58.739 Tricare Health Clinic, which is the big clinic 00:36:58.739 --> 00:37:04.619 in the Pentagon. When I started the Pentagon 00:37:04.619 --> 00:37:07.260 in July, we had been married for a couple months. 00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:11.559 And when 9 -11 happened, I had been there for 00:37:11.559 --> 00:37:14.820 all of five weeks. And I had a new job as a new 00:37:14.820 --> 00:37:16.980 attending. There's another little twist here, 00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:19.579 because anybody who's ever been in the military 00:37:19.579 --> 00:37:23.360 and wonder how these guys make assignments in 00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:26.380 the personnel office. So you just got married, 00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:29.260 you're going to be assigned to the Pentagon. 00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:33.539 What did they decide to do with your husband 00:37:33.539 --> 00:37:38.460 at that time, I believe a major, where did they 00:37:38.460 --> 00:37:42.860 decide to send him? So they decided it was his 00:37:42.860 --> 00:37:47.300 turn to do a deployment at Prince Sultan Air 00:37:47.300 --> 00:37:52.159 Base in Saudi Arabia. So exactly a week before 00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:57.579 9 -11, I dropped him off at the airport. So here 00:37:57.579 --> 00:38:00.659 you are, sort of brand new at this clinic in 00:38:00.659 --> 00:38:03.960 the Pentagon. Tell us what your duties were. 00:38:04.139 --> 00:38:08.960 Tell us what was going on sort of in your professional 00:38:08.960 --> 00:38:13.219 career at that point as the events of 9 -11 unfold. 00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:17.280 Okay, so the clinic there is actually pretty 00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:20.960 sizable. It's tri -service, though it's run by 00:38:20.960 --> 00:38:25.780 the Army. And we had primary care, physical therapy. 00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:29.119 We had our own lab, radiology. We also handled 00:38:29.119 --> 00:38:32.159 all emergency services for the building. We had 00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:35.019 little ambulances. They were golf carts, but 00:38:35.019 --> 00:38:36.860 they were like stretch golf carts because I could 00:38:36.860 --> 00:38:41.059 hold a gurney. So if there was any kind of accident 00:38:41.059 --> 00:38:43.460 or someone had a heart attack in the Pentagon, 00:38:43.599 --> 00:38:47.300 we took care of them as well. So when I came 00:38:47.300 --> 00:38:50.760 in, I was a family physician, and I also was 00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:53.820 the chief of the physical exam section for the 00:38:53.820 --> 00:38:56.739 Air Force. So I was responsible for making sure 00:38:56.739 --> 00:38:59.119 that the 3 ,000 to 4 ,000 Air Force people in 00:38:59.119 --> 00:39:02.760 the building got their physical, but it was what 00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:05.360 was called something called a PHA, every year. 00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:09.599 So on the morning of 9 -11, I'd been there about 00:39:09.599 --> 00:39:12.429 five weeks. I still hadn't been anywhere in the 00:39:12.429 --> 00:39:15.670 building without an escort. Usually they send 00:39:15.670 --> 00:39:18.309 an escort with you because they need to get lost. 00:39:18.530 --> 00:39:21.670 They hate to lose new doctors and new captains 00:39:21.670 --> 00:39:23.250 in the Pentagon. It's just wandering around, 00:39:23.449 --> 00:39:27.110 don't they? Yeah, they call it the five -sided 00:39:27.110 --> 00:39:30.909 puzzle palace, and that is no lie. To be honest, 00:39:31.090 --> 00:39:33.289 I was a little afraid to go anywhere beyond the 00:39:33.289 --> 00:39:36.489 little, you know, convenience shop down the hallway 00:39:36.489 --> 00:39:39.860 without somebody with me. So I mainly stuck to 00:39:39.860 --> 00:39:44.340 the clinic and did my work there. And the morning, 00:39:44.440 --> 00:39:46.940 9 -11, I mean, it was like any other clinic day. 00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:51.139 And I remember walking up to the front desk because 00:39:51.139 --> 00:39:53.440 I hadn't seen a patient in a little bit. And 00:39:53.440 --> 00:39:55.739 I wondered if maybe they had no showed. And I 00:39:55.739 --> 00:39:57.440 noticed there were a bunch of people watching 00:39:57.440 --> 00:40:02.179 the television in the waiting area and showing 00:40:02.179 --> 00:40:05.039 the first plane going into the first building. 00:40:06.139 --> 00:40:11.360 in New York City. And so I watched for a few 00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:13.840 minutes and I remember walking back to one of 00:40:13.840 --> 00:40:16.199 my colleagues' offices and saying, hey, did you 00:40:16.199 --> 00:40:18.320 see what's on TV? A plane flew into the World 00:40:18.320 --> 00:40:20.780 Trade Center. And she has a really kind of dry, 00:40:20.840 --> 00:40:23.139 sarcastic sense of humor. And she goes, well, 00:40:23.159 --> 00:40:25.320 she goes, maybe we ought to just close up because 00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:28.460 I best learn next. And I mean, I kid you not, 00:40:28.599 --> 00:40:32.079 it probably wasn't 10 minutes later when the 00:40:32.079 --> 00:40:35.800 Pentagon was hit. I didn't I didn't feel like 00:40:35.800 --> 00:40:37.860 a big boom or anything, but I was on my feet 00:40:37.860 --> 00:40:41.000 at the time. My colleague said that she sort 00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:43.739 of felt like a like a wump at her desk. Like 00:40:43.739 --> 00:40:46.059 if you've ever been in a small earthquake in 00:40:46.059 --> 00:40:49.400 California, it kind of feels like that. And your 00:40:49.400 --> 00:40:54.079 clinic was located on the opposite side of the 00:40:54.079 --> 00:40:56.280 Pentagon from where the plane crashed. Is that 00:40:56.280 --> 00:40:59.550 right? Yes. Yes, and the odd thing is that had 00:40:59.550 --> 00:41:03.309 just moved from that location. I want to say 00:41:03.309 --> 00:41:07.570 maybe a couple years before, but the online the 00:41:07.570 --> 00:41:10.190 website for the Pentagon, like, like the things 00:41:10.190 --> 00:41:13.190 on there had not been updated. So when this all 00:41:13.190 --> 00:41:15.989 happened. a bunch of my family went on the Pentagon 00:41:15.989 --> 00:41:17.690 website to see if they could figure out where 00:41:17.690 --> 00:41:20.030 I was. And they thought I was right where the 00:41:20.030 --> 00:41:22.570 plane had hit. But yes, we were we were almost 00:41:22.570 --> 00:41:24.969 directly opposite. We were on the right by north 00:41:24.969 --> 00:41:27.690 parking. If you walk in, you go through the turnstiles. 00:41:27.710 --> 00:41:32.630 We're right there on the left. So I. And did 00:41:32.630 --> 00:41:36.730 you think did you think, oh, that's the plane 00:41:36.730 --> 00:41:39.230 crashing into us, like my colleague said, or 00:41:39.230 --> 00:41:43.059 what? Now what was your immediate thought about 00:41:43.059 --> 00:41:47.519 what had occurred? You know I thought I was a 00:41:47.519 --> 00:41:49.840 pretty worldly person up to this point and today 00:41:49.840 --> 00:41:53.900 I realized just how naive I was because um you 00:41:53.900 --> 00:41:57.159 know I I went back up to the front desk and this 00:41:57.159 --> 00:41:59.900 man comes in and just starts screaming we've 00:41:59.900 --> 00:42:02.889 been hit we've been hit everybody get out. and 00:42:02.889 --> 00:42:05.269 so then this whole mass of people which actually 00:42:05.269 --> 00:42:07.110 there was a lot of people in the waiting area 00:42:07.110 --> 00:42:08.869 then and the only thing I could think of is that 00:42:08.869 --> 00:42:10.829 people knew we had a tv and as they were coming 00:42:10.829 --> 00:42:12.550 in the building they were stopping in to kind 00:42:12.550 --> 00:42:14.590 of see you know get an update on what was going 00:42:14.590 --> 00:42:18.050 on so this wave of people goes out and literally 00:42:18.050 --> 00:42:21.570 just sweeps me out of the building and I get 00:42:21.570 --> 00:42:24.110 outside and I stop and I turn around I see all 00:42:24.110 --> 00:42:27.840 these people running towards me and I can see 00:42:27.840 --> 00:42:30.780 smoke coming up from the from far away, like 00:42:30.780 --> 00:42:32.480 I told the other side of the building, like not 00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:36.780 our side. And, you know, Pentagon is old. And 00:42:36.780 --> 00:42:39.699 that side actually was undergoing some very much 00:42:39.699 --> 00:42:42.920 needed renovations. There's places in that in 00:42:42.920 --> 00:42:45.800 the in there that had not had significant renovations 00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:48.679 for decades. And I thought, well, maybe a gas 00:42:48.679 --> 00:42:51.320 line blew or like something like that. My first 00:42:51.320 --> 00:42:53.320 thought was not, oh, another plane came and hit 00:42:53.320 --> 00:42:56.869 us. Well, and I think all of us watching this 00:42:56.869 --> 00:43:00.510 I know I was watching it on TV As it has occurred, 00:43:00.710 --> 00:43:02.969 you know that first plane you thought well, how 00:43:02.969 --> 00:43:06.710 dumb is the pilot? I mean, I'm not sure we as 00:43:06.710 --> 00:43:10.849 Americans necessarily Quickly equated it to an 00:43:10.849 --> 00:43:13.849 organized terrorist attack Did your mind ever 00:43:13.849 --> 00:43:17.369 get there that day or was the chaos and the medical 00:43:17.369 --> 00:43:19.809 needs just so overwhelming? It didn't matter 00:43:19.809 --> 00:43:24.780 why it happened Well, I think I think we all 00:43:24.780 --> 00:43:27.440 got there pretty quickly and I think to be honest 00:43:27.440 --> 00:43:30.320 most people faster than me and a lot of rumors 00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:32.460 started flying because I was outside for maybe 00:43:32.460 --> 00:43:35.519 ten minutes right after we all left the building 00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:39.239 there and You'd hear these things. Oh, I heard 00:43:39.239 --> 00:43:42.139 that there was a bomb at Camp David and then 00:43:42.139 --> 00:43:44.760 it was a car bomb at the Capitol. And so I think 00:43:44.760 --> 00:43:47.420 by then most people had after the two planes 00:43:47.420 --> 00:43:50.579 in New York and this one had moved into, oh, 00:43:50.619 --> 00:43:53.340 this was not a series of very unfortunate events. 00:43:53.420 --> 00:43:56.860 This was planned. But then at the same time, 00:43:56.920 --> 00:43:58.940 you're like, well, it doesn't really matter. 00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:01.380 Like, I'm here now and there are people that 00:44:01.380 --> 00:44:03.420 are hurt and we just got to do what we have to 00:44:03.420 --> 00:44:07.650 do. You said Initially, you're outside for about 00:44:07.650 --> 00:44:12.309 10 minutes. Yeah. At what point and how does 00:44:12.309 --> 00:44:14.610 it happen? You say, I got to go back inside and 00:44:14.610 --> 00:44:19.090 help folks. Well, I mean, I think after the initial 00:44:19.090 --> 00:44:21.869 confusion, like I didn't see a lot of people 00:44:21.869 --> 00:44:25.150 from our clinic. There was one of the nurses 00:44:25.150 --> 00:44:28.250 and we had a nursing student with us and I didn't 00:44:28.250 --> 00:44:33.630 have a radio on her thing. And I learned at that 00:44:33.630 --> 00:44:35.949 point that normally Every day in the clinic, 00:44:36.130 --> 00:44:37.929 we had something called the emergency team in 00:44:37.929 --> 00:44:39.929 case something happened in the building. And 00:44:39.929 --> 00:44:42.250 there'd be, you know, some medics, a nurse, a 00:44:42.250 --> 00:44:44.690 doc, and they would all have a walkie talkie. 00:44:44.710 --> 00:44:46.530 And so you'd still go about doing your normal 00:44:46.530 --> 00:44:48.570 stuff. But in case an emergency came up, everybody 00:44:48.570 --> 00:44:50.789 was reachable and they had go bags with all the 00:44:50.789 --> 00:44:52.909 supplies and that kind of stuff. Well, I didn't 00:44:52.909 --> 00:44:54.789 have one of those radios because I wasn't on 00:44:54.789 --> 00:44:57.550 the emergency team. They didn't make me do that 00:44:57.550 --> 00:44:59.869 duty until I had gotten my feet a little wetter 00:44:59.869 --> 00:45:04.460 there. And then one of the other medics was outside 00:45:04.460 --> 00:45:07.280 and ran up and handed me his radio. And it was 00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:10.119 just a, it was really a cluster of all sorts 00:45:10.119 --> 00:45:13.019 of people talking, but I realized that everyone 00:45:13.019 --> 00:45:15.719 was, you know, was still back in there. So I 00:45:15.719 --> 00:45:17.920 said, well, if that's where we're going, we're 00:45:17.920 --> 00:45:20.019 go back in the building. So I went back inside 00:45:20.019 --> 00:45:22.780 and the first place I stopped was the clinic. 00:45:23.309 --> 00:45:26.710 And it was like, I put this, I told this to Mr. 00:45:26.889 --> 00:45:29.150 Stirner, it was like, it was kind of like mash. 00:45:29.369 --> 00:45:31.449 Like there were, the waiting area was just people 00:45:31.449 --> 00:45:33.690 on the floor and they were trying to start IVs. 00:45:33.690 --> 00:45:35.550 There were people with burns. There were people 00:45:35.550 --> 00:45:38.769 with injuries. And our commander was at Walter 00:45:38.769 --> 00:45:42.489 Reed that day. And so the next clinical person 00:45:42.489 --> 00:45:44.949 in command, the chief nurse gave me her radio 00:45:44.949 --> 00:45:48.250 or told me to keep my radio and said, I need 00:45:48.250 --> 00:45:50.190 you to go to where the plane hit and tell me 00:45:50.190 --> 00:45:53.019 how many casualties we have there. And I don't 00:45:53.019 --> 00:45:54.619 think she was realizing at the time that out 00:45:54.619 --> 00:45:57.579 of everybody in the room, I'd hear the least 00:45:57.579 --> 00:45:59.260 about how to get around in the building. There's 00:45:59.260 --> 00:46:03.260 those captain bars again. Yeah, like just we're 00:46:03.260 --> 00:46:06.699 nothing but trouble. And so like I didn't realize 00:46:06.699 --> 00:46:08.539 that you could just cut straight up that there 00:46:08.539 --> 00:46:10.039 were like spokes of the wheel and that you could 00:46:10.039 --> 00:46:12.119 just cut straight up into the center courtyard 00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:14.079 and cut across to the other side. I hadn't been 00:46:14.079 --> 00:46:17.659 there yet. So I followed the path ways that I 00:46:17.659 --> 00:46:19.539 had been taken on before when I had to go to 00:46:19.539 --> 00:46:22.090 various offices when I was in processing. and 00:46:22.090 --> 00:46:26.730 so I ended up working my way up I think to the 00:46:26.730 --> 00:46:29.030 fourth floor of the building and I thought I 00:46:29.030 --> 00:46:31.010 must be getting really close because the smoke 00:46:31.010 --> 00:46:33.869 started getting really bad but again one of the 00:46:33.929 --> 00:46:36.869 the weird physics of the sort of circular nature 00:46:36.869 --> 00:46:40.349 of the Pentagon is that once that explosion happened, 00:46:40.750 --> 00:46:43.389 the smoke kind of got drawn and sucked all the 00:46:43.389 --> 00:46:45.969 way around the circle. So it was really, really 00:46:45.969 --> 00:46:48.070 smoky, but I actually wasn't anywhere near the 00:46:48.070 --> 00:46:50.670 crash site, but there were a lot of people milling 00:46:50.670 --> 00:46:54.250 around confused. I ran into a couple people from 00:46:54.250 --> 00:46:55.909 the clinic and they said, look, we have to get 00:46:55.909 --> 00:46:59.769 these people out of here. And so we were running 00:46:59.769 --> 00:47:02.210 down, just banging on doors and directing people 00:47:02.210 --> 00:47:05.059 to the only open ways we knew to get out of the 00:47:05.059 --> 00:47:08.000 building. The smoke just kept getting worse and 00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:09.820 worse and it got to the point where we were just 00:47:09.820 --> 00:47:13.599 crawling on our hands and knees until basically 00:47:13.599 --> 00:47:16.500 we couldn't find any more people. No more people 00:47:16.500 --> 00:47:20.199 were answering knocks on doors and then we got 00:47:20.199 --> 00:47:23.920 a call on the radio from the security of the 00:47:23.920 --> 00:47:28.320 Pentagon and they said, we have reports of another 00:47:28.320 --> 00:47:30.440 plane incoming and everybody needs to get out 00:47:30.440 --> 00:47:33.829 of the building now. Just has to be frightening. 00:47:34.030 --> 00:47:37.170 I mean just I know those of us who watched it 00:47:37.170 --> 00:47:40.889 on TV were frightened But to be on the ground 00:47:40.889 --> 00:47:45.190 to smell it to breathe that smoke to see people 00:47:45.190 --> 00:47:49.429 who were injured It just had to be frightening 00:47:49.429 --> 00:47:54.630 and I guess I'm wondering How would struck you 00:47:54.630 --> 00:47:59.800 in the moment? To be honest, in that moment, 00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:02.840 it hadn't really hit me yet. I don't know if 00:48:02.840 --> 00:48:05.480 that's just a blessing from God in the way he 00:48:05.480 --> 00:48:08.079 enables our brain to compartmentalize. But in 00:48:08.079 --> 00:48:11.639 that moment, all I could think about was what's 00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:15.219 the next right thing we need to do. And so we 00:48:15.219 --> 00:48:19.760 headed back down to the clinic and They were 00:48:19.760 --> 00:48:21.619 trying to basically get as many supplies from 00:48:21.619 --> 00:48:23.440 inside the clinic to outside so we could get 00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:26.699 out of the building. This is a clinic, it's not 00:48:26.699 --> 00:48:29.679 an ER, it's not a hospital, you have limited. 00:48:31.179 --> 00:48:35.460 No, but I will say it is one of the nicest supplied 00:48:35.460 --> 00:48:40.179 clinics I've ever worked in in my career. Like 00:48:40.179 --> 00:48:44.219 I said, we have a mini ER of sorts, so we could 00:48:44.219 --> 00:48:47.519 do quite a bit. before say an ambulance would 00:48:47.519 --> 00:48:50.380 arrive if someone was in dire straits. So we 00:48:50.380 --> 00:48:54.039 had a couple of intubation kits, we had oxygen 00:48:54.039 --> 00:48:58.280 tanks, we had IVs, all that kind of stuff. And 00:48:58.280 --> 00:49:01.760 then we had our own pharmacy, so there was medications. 00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:05.119 So everyone in each of the clinic rooms had like 00:49:05.119 --> 00:49:07.519 a little... You know, those craftsman tool kits 00:49:07.519 --> 00:49:10.300 kind of looks like that, but more hospitally 00:49:10.300 --> 00:49:13.000 full of supplies. So they were rolling those 00:49:13.000 --> 00:49:15.199 out. We were opening up the supply cabinets, 00:49:15.300 --> 00:49:17.519 like filling up, you know, an empty trash bin, 00:49:17.679 --> 00:49:20.059 all that kind of stuff. So everything and then 00:49:20.059 --> 00:49:23.500 we just got outside and and out in North parking. 00:49:23.980 --> 00:49:27.409 There were quite. a few wounded out there already. 00:49:27.730 --> 00:49:30.190 I think the majority were actually on the other 00:49:30.190 --> 00:49:32.429 side on the outside of the south area where the 00:49:32.429 --> 00:49:34.329 plane crashed and I would say probably half our 00:49:34.329 --> 00:49:38.289 folks had already gone in that direction to work 00:49:38.289 --> 00:49:42.409 out there. So we got out of the building and 00:49:42.409 --> 00:49:44.730 then it was a matter of trying to treat the people 00:49:44.730 --> 00:49:49.170 that we had in front of us there. I do have some 00:49:49.170 --> 00:49:52.110 pretty indelible mental images from there. I 00:49:52.110 --> 00:49:55.690 mean, people had jumped out windows, people had 00:49:55.690 --> 00:49:58.489 been thrown into walls by the blast, and then 00:49:58.489 --> 00:50:01.230 just smoke inhalation, this can be so deadly 00:50:01.230 --> 00:50:06.250 very quickly. So we did our best to treat the 00:50:06.250 --> 00:50:10.329 people on the ground the best we could. And then 00:50:10.329 --> 00:50:12.670 when we stopped getting ambulances, because they 00:50:12.670 --> 00:50:16.800 had closed all the roads for security, our head 00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:19.639 administrative guy, he wasn't a doc, but he was 00:50:19.639 --> 00:50:22.619 right below the doc who was the commander, just 00:50:22.619 --> 00:50:24.800 started getting people to take people to the 00:50:24.800 --> 00:50:27.619 hospital and even commandeered someone's SUV 00:50:27.619 --> 00:50:30.960 himself. And they'd pull up their cars or whatever, 00:50:31.159 --> 00:50:32.960 we'd put all the seats down, slide the gurney 00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:35.079 in the back with a medic and send them off to 00:50:35.079 --> 00:50:40.139 the hospital. It really sounds like the team 00:50:40.139 --> 00:50:44.659 came together and just did what needed to be 00:50:44.659 --> 00:50:48.860 done And that was really something that always 00:50:48.860 --> 00:50:51.320 attracted you to the military, was sort of that 00:50:51.320 --> 00:50:57.219 higher team obligation, goal, mission. It sounds 00:50:57.219 --> 00:51:00.599 like that's what happened that day. It really 00:51:00.599 --> 00:51:04.340 did. I mean, was it a chaotic hot mess? Yes. 00:51:05.860 --> 00:51:09.440 We always do the exact right thing, no, but we 00:51:09.440 --> 00:51:11.880 did not have the supplies we needed and we were 00:51:11.880 --> 00:51:14.559 just doing the best we could to keep people alive 00:51:14.559 --> 00:51:16.559 until they could get to a higher level of care. 00:51:18.139 --> 00:51:20.760 And it was, it was, yeah, it's one of those things 00:51:20.760 --> 00:51:22.940 that I think if any of us had had the chance 00:51:22.940 --> 00:51:25.900 to stop and think, people are falling apart, 00:51:26.460 --> 00:51:28.639 but it's, you know, you train and you train and 00:51:28.639 --> 00:51:31.840 you train and this is why. So that when you know 00:51:31.840 --> 00:51:36.559 what hits the fan, you just, You just do. There's 00:51:36.559 --> 00:51:41.019 also a personal side of this. I know in that 00:51:41.019 --> 00:51:43.639 while this is going, you've got to be thinking 00:51:43.639 --> 00:51:46.539 about your new husband. You've got to be thinking 00:51:46.539 --> 00:51:49.800 about your mom and dad. There's no cell phone 00:51:49.800 --> 00:51:53.219 service. And you're you're on the ground at the 00:51:53.219 --> 00:51:57.239 Pentagon for what, 10, 12 hours? Yeah, I mean, 00:51:57.260 --> 00:52:00.610 I was there till sometime between. like eight 00:52:00.610 --> 00:52:03.849 and nine o 'clock that night. And at one point, 00:52:04.630 --> 00:52:09.210 you know, we did have not quite quiet, but stiller 00:52:09.210 --> 00:52:11.130 moments when we had done all we can do and we 00:52:11.130 --> 00:52:13.889 were waiting. And it did occur to me, I'm like, 00:52:13.949 --> 00:52:16.750 I don't know what my parents know. And at this 00:52:16.750 --> 00:52:19.650 point, because all we knew was that New York 00:52:19.650 --> 00:52:21.329 had been attacked, we had been attacked and there 00:52:21.329 --> 00:52:23.150 was another plane in the air. Like I'm like, 00:52:23.510 --> 00:52:25.710 I mean, did World War III just start? Like we 00:52:25.710 --> 00:52:29.760 had no context to put all of this in. So I did 00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:32.260 think about my husband Steve and I thought about 00:52:32.260 --> 00:52:34.860 my parents, but also at the same time at that 00:52:34.860 --> 00:52:36.900 moment there was nothing I could do about it. 00:52:37.500 --> 00:52:40.500 I mean, eventually once we had taken care of 00:52:40.500 --> 00:52:45.019 everyone we could outside, they asked us to go 00:52:45.019 --> 00:52:47.639 back in the building just to cut through to get 00:52:47.639 --> 00:52:50.280 to that center courtyard so that we could be 00:52:50.280 --> 00:52:53.099 right behind where the plane had gone in. So 00:52:53.099 --> 00:52:55.599 that way there were medical teams on both sides 00:52:55.599 --> 00:52:58.199 of the wreckage. because they didn't know if 00:52:58.199 --> 00:53:00.000 they were gonna find any further survivors, they 00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:01.579 didn't know what direction they'd be easiest 00:53:01.579 --> 00:53:03.139 to get them out. And they just basically wanted 00:53:03.139 --> 00:53:06.599 to have medical teams ready on either side. So 00:53:06.599 --> 00:53:10.099 we walked through and we got all set up and we 00:53:10.099 --> 00:53:13.519 divided into our triage teams, like immediate 00:53:13.519 --> 00:53:16.320 and delayed and things like that. We'll talk 00:53:16.320 --> 00:53:18.219 about that a little bit in the book. And then 00:53:18.219 --> 00:53:20.480 it was a matter of waiting to see who would come 00:53:20.480 --> 00:53:23.559 out. And during that waiting time, someone who 00:53:23.559 --> 00:53:25.800 did have a cell phone on them and had battery 00:53:26.239 --> 00:53:29.039 was very generous and just pass their phone around 00:53:29.039 --> 00:53:33.579 and let everybody make one quick call. Um, so 00:53:33.579 --> 00:53:35.820 nobody could get through long distance though. 00:53:36.019 --> 00:53:38.039 Multiple people tried and it was just completely, 00:53:38.239 --> 00:53:41.179 it was, it was completely jammed. And it was 00:53:41.179 --> 00:53:43.239 going to show like the times, but I happened 00:53:43.239 --> 00:53:46.699 to have my Palm pilot in my lab coat pocket and 00:53:46.699 --> 00:53:51.199 it had my, I remember thinking that was like 00:53:51.199 --> 00:53:55.099 the height of technology. Um, I had my church's 00:53:55.099 --> 00:53:57.380 phone number in it, and we were getting some 00:53:57.380 --> 00:53:59.380 local calls through. So I called my church and 00:53:59.380 --> 00:54:02.380 talked to the church secretary, who was a friend 00:54:02.380 --> 00:54:04.380 of mine, and I gave her my parents' phone numbers. 00:54:04.639 --> 00:54:06.980 And I said, can you just please keep calling 00:54:06.980 --> 00:54:09.920 until you get through and tell them I'm alive 00:54:09.920 --> 00:54:13.920 and ask them to email Steve in Saudi and tell 00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:15.460 them I'm alive? Because I think that's probably 00:54:15.460 --> 00:54:19.000 the fastest way we can get word to him. So I 00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:21.239 got to talk to her, you know, for five minutes 00:54:21.239 --> 00:54:24.039 and then I passed the phone on to my boss so 00:54:24.039 --> 00:54:27.559 she could call her family. And so I did get that 00:54:27.559 --> 00:54:30.119 chance to put word out. But, you know, she my 00:54:30.119 --> 00:54:34.260 boss was a rock all day. And, you know, she my 00:54:34.260 --> 00:54:36.460 direct supervisor and she's like a sister to 00:54:36.460 --> 00:54:40.059 me now. And but when she she managed to get her 00:54:40.059 --> 00:54:42.000 sister on the phone, she started to break a little 00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:44.380 bit. And I realized I'd like, I was actually 00:54:44.380 --> 00:54:46.280 grateful that I couldn't get a hold of my parents 00:54:46.280 --> 00:54:48.280 because I think I might've been done after that. 00:54:48.960 --> 00:54:52.880 You can hear the rest of the interview with Dr. 00:54:53.119 --> 00:54:57.320 Gelvin on the veteran radio podcast that we put 00:54:57.320 --> 00:55:01.099 up. She goes on to talk about her faith and how 00:55:01.099 --> 00:55:04.659 she got through all this. Interesting story, 00:55:04.760 --> 00:55:08.659 as I say, from somebody on the ground. We just 00:55:08.659 --> 00:55:12.800 want to remind you that veterans radio. 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