All across America and around the world, this
is Veterans Radio. This is Veterans Radio. And
now, your host for today's program, Dale Throneberry.
Hey, welcome to Veterans Radio. My name is Dale
Throneberry, CW2 helicopter pilot in Vietnam.
We want to welcome you to Veterans Radio today.
I'm really excited to have you here. We've got
two guests that are going to be on. One is Christopher
Brewer. He's an airborne ranger, all kinds of
stuff. He's going to be talking about training
that he went through and some of the missions
that he was on. So I'm really excited to have
Chris on the program. one of our NVBDC interviews
that my partner Jim Fausone did with Bill Elmore.
I'll talk about NVBDC a little bit more in a
second. If you would like to get in on the conversation
today, feel free to give us a call. The number
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Veterans Radio. Oh, I got a quick little announcement
for you. I want you to mark your calendar. Mark
your calendar for Sunday, September 28th. And
that's going to be our fourth, I think it is,
Radio on the River fundraiser. And it's going
to be out at a place called Freedom River here
in Michigan. And we've got... Michigan Flight
Museum is providing us with a Huey helicopter
for people to get rides on. Yay. And we've got
musicians are going to be there. Lem Genovese
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We've got food. We've got all kinds of things
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out there. That's Radio on the River, September
28th. It's not a home game for you people who
live in the Ann Arbor area. So it's okay. You
can go out to the game, our game this time. All
right. So let's get right into our interview
here. And my first guest today is Christopher
Brewer. And Christopher. Has written a number
of books. He's an Army Ranger. He's Special Forces.
He's a little bit of everything. The book is
Old Scroll Ranger. And the second one that I
read was called In the Shadows Between the Wars.
So we're going to be talking with Chris about
how he got into the military and some of the
training that he had to go through. And then
we're going to talk about some of the missions
that he was on that we're allowed to talk about.
We'll see. So joining me online right now is
Christopher Brewer. Chris, welcome to Veterans
Radio. Yeah, thank you very much for having me.
All right. So tell me, take us back in time a
little bit and tell me, how did you get involved
in the military to begin with? Well, I was an
Army brat. I grew up all my life. Moving from
base to base, my father was in the Army. And
it just was a natural transition. When I went
to college, I went to what was at that time North
Georgia Military College. And like a lot of young
people, I was tired of studying and struggling
a bit with it and saw some of the advertisements
for Special Forces. So I enlisted in 20th Special
Forces Group National Guard to help pay the bills.
Got the bug. So on something else later on about
the 1st Ranger Battalion that was being activated,
1st full Ranger Battalion since World War II,
and decided I wanted to be a part of it. So I
went ahead and enlisted in the regular Army,
joined the 1st Ranger Battalion in the middle
of their activation test at Fort Stewart in 1974.
Okay. So you were at Fort Stewart then? Correct.
That's where Hunter Airfield was? Hunter is in
Savannah. I mean, are they close? I don't know.
During the Vietnam era, they had flight schools,
advanced flight schools at Fort Rucker, Alabama,
and at Hunter Army Airfield outside of Savannah
at the same time. That's why we're trying to
make that connection. Okay. So where did you
do your basic training? I did my basic training
at Fort Pope, Louisiana. Went out to Fort Sam
Houston for the medic training. Now, since I
was only about 18, 19 years old at the time,
the only thing I could do in Special Forces,
the way they were configured in those days, was
be a medic. Those were the only two trainings
that I completed before the Rangers came up.
And when the Rangers came up, again, being young
and foolish, I decided I wanted to be an infantryman.
So I insisted on going back to Fort Polk, Louisiana
to be an infantryman and then to jump school
and then to the ranger band. Okay. I had the
privilege of going through Fort Polk for basic
training myself. What a lovely area of the world.
That's what I thought anyway. First place in
the combat infantryman. I said, there's a mistake
here. I'm supposed to be going to flight school.
What are you doing sending me to this place?
All right. So let's talk about the differences
between, you know, you go through regular basic
and everybody who's been through at least the
Army basic training is pretty much the same all
across the country. But then you came back. Was
that considered AIT for infantry? Correct. Okay.
And then that's another eight weeks of. Running
around the trumps and stuff of Louisiana. And
then off to ranger school. Where was ranger school?
Ranger school didn't happen until much later.
At those days, for the ranger battalion, you'd
come directly there. And then after a period
of time, they would send you to ranger school
if they deemed you worthy. And also at that time
in the 70s, if you went into ranger school as
a PFC, you'd use... Certainly as a spec four,
you'd come out as a sergeant and you got promoted.
So they wouldn't allow me to go to ranger school
until they decided that they wanted me to be
a sergeant in the ranger battalion. Okay. So
in the meantime, did you, did you go to jump
school before ranger school or, or how did that
work? Yeah, you've got to be airborne qualified
to be in the ranger bat. So I picked up a jump
school in route. So I showed up there as a. Airborne
qualified five -jump -chump PFC in the middle
of their activation test where they were pushing
them as hard as they could possibly do so to
see just how much a Ranger battalion could take.
And one of the reasons in reading your book,
we're talking here with Christopher Brewer, and
one of the two books that we're going to talk
about today is called Old Scroll of Ranger. And
in this, you were talking about how they wanted
to remold. American military after, you know,
what had happened in Vietnam. And they wanted
to kind of rebuild from the ground up almost
as far as, you know, Rangers were concerned and
so forth. Could you talk about that a little
bit? Yeah, General Creighton Abrams felt that
we had a lot of problems in the Army after Vietnam.
There was a lot of drug use. We didn't have urinalysis
back then. There were racial divisions. There
was morale. especially the way Vietnam ended.
Morale was really low army -wide. So his thought
was we're going to form a ranger battalion, get
the best people we can in there, train them the
way we want them to be, and then we're going
to send them out throughout the army as NCOs
and officers to go ahead and bring the standards
of the army as a whole up. So after the first
two, that's about the third year we were together.
that started to happen. Everybody was there.
One of the originals, they started going out
to all the regulatory units across the world.
Oh, okay. Right. Well, that makes sense. I mean,
considering that this is also at the time where
now we've got the volunteer army going and yeah,
no, I was, I was curious about that. And that,
you know, it made sense. I was thinking while
I was reading the book about the morale going
down because everything, You know, the Army doesn't
live in a vacuum. Even in Vietnam, you could
start seeing, especially toward the end of the
Vietnam War, that the problems that we were having
here at home were coming over because they were,
you know, they were drafting anybody, you know,
anybody and everybody that was kind of left in
the country, I think. And so some of those issues,
as you mentioned, you know, the drug use. The
racial issues, some of insubordination and those
types of things were going on even when I was
in the service until I got home. And I think
that the idea of, it's interesting that Creighton
Abrams was a guy who did this whole thing. Yeah,
and we've got a quote from him in the book. uh
preface of the book that's the direct quote from
creighton abrams and that's that's the whole
purpose of the ranger battalion in his mind now
it evolved into a lot more since then over the
years and the guys are young guys that are out
of regiment are into things that we could have
only dreamed of back in 74. okay yeah he says
wherever the bell wherever the battalion goes
it will be apparent that it is the best and that
was a standard uh And it actually was a little,
the NCOs and the officers, every one of them
had combat experience except for one guy. Most
of them came out of the long -range reconnaissance
patrol units, SOGs, Studies and Observation Group,
Special Forces out of Vietnam. So that was a
pretty impressive crew to come in as a young
PFC. Those were all your leaders. Yeah, I can
imagine that would be. Yeah, some of those guys
were, some of them were actually a little scary,
but they were also very, very proficient in what
they did. Some of those guys were very scary,
especially your PFC working for them. I would
think so, yeah. I'm sure that they, you know.
Before you had your own adventures, they had
stories that would make their hair on the back
of your neck stand on end, I'm sure. Oh, and
we'd hear them all, too. It's kind of interesting.
In fact, there was one guy that had been an E
-7 in Vietnam, one of those. And he got a battlefield
promotion, and he was the only second lieutenant
in the Ranger Battalion. This was a guy who had
been a sergeant, first -class ranger, lerp, in
Vietnam. And he's not your average second lieutenant.
He actually had the guys in his platoon out there
one day lined up with a table and a medic and
an eight bag and a 22 caliber pistol. And his
logic was that you have to know what it's like
to be shot. He'd been shot many times. So if
you've been shot, then it's not a shock when
it happens to you and you can push on through
it. So as he was explaining it to his guys, men.
I'm going to bring up here. I'm going to shoot
you with this 22 caliber pistol, but just in
the leg, just in the calf of the leg in the meaty
part. And the medic here is going to take care
of you. And you'll be excused from the run part
of physical training for a whole week while you
heal up. But that's just so you know what it's
like. And fortunately, the company commander
was coming by and he kind of stepped in and said,
no, no, I don't think we're going to do that
today. Oh. To the immense relief of the guys
in the platoon. I can only imagine what was going
through their minds at that time. What if he
misses? What if he hits a bone? There's some
question as to whether or not he just was kidding
and doing that for effect. But boy, we sure believed
him. Oh, I can understand that. All right. So
we've gone on. We've gone to jump school. You've
gotten. promoted already up to sergeant, which
is pretty good right away. So where did we go
from here? Well, we came in and then the battalion
went through a lot. We did our initial training.
We did our activation tests. They experimented,
all kinds of experiments. So we went to Fort
Bragg and we basically walked for three days
and three nights. and the only time we would
stop was we'd stop we'd dig a fighting position
as soon as it was done done correctly we'd fill
it back in we put our rucks on we start walking
again we did that for three days three nights
without stop no rest and then we had a company
live fire and that was to see how men would respond
and react under stress with all the training
that we had and Great training, most of it with
live ammunition. They emphasized that we're not
playing around. This is live. You can kill somebody
if you make a mistake. So every round has to
be aimed. Every motion has to be calculated.
You have to do exactly what we've taught you
to do or you can get killed. And that was kind
of a culmination there because I literally don't
remember anything about that third night other
than crawling for a while and then firing my
weapon. Other than that, it was muscle memory.
But then they took us on the road. So we went
to a Reforger in Germany. We worked against the
101st Airborne Division. We went from Reforger
to the Jungle Operations Training Course in Panama.
And Rangers in the Jungle, there's a chapter
in that in the book. And then we went from there
back to Fort Stewart, and we did an in -flight
rig, flew all the way to Alaska in February.
and jumped in up at Fairbanks, close to the Arctic
Circle, and got a bit of winter warfare training.
And then we went up above the Arctic Circle onto
the North Slope and did a simulated attack on
the pipeline. So that got us through all the
various things that Rangers might do. And of
course, with that, one of our primary missions
was always airfield seizures. So we'd practice
constantly to jump in and seize airports. And
then we branched out. We started going to Halo
School. I was the first one to go to the Special
Forces Underwater Operations course with Scuba
School. Can I back you up just a little bit,
Chris? And can we explain to our audience what
some of these things that you were doing? I mean,
this live fire thing got my attention. This is
not, for those of you that went through base,
this is not the live thing where we crawled under
the wire and they were shooting over our heads.
You know, it seemed like it was right over the
top of our heads, but I think I know it was like
nine feet or something. This is much more a close
-in fire, isn't it? Yeah, day and night. Usually,
when we were going to do a live fire exercise,
we'd go out, we'd pick a section of forest or
swamp or desert, whatever it was. And the standard
was pretty much always the same, whether it was
a defense or when there's an attack. First, we
do a walk -through, talk -through. Everybody
would go out and we'd discuss what we were going
to do, how we were going to do it. We'd practice
that. Then we'd come back and we would do it
a day with blanks. Then we'd critique that. If
we had to practice anything else, we'd do that.
Then we'd do it at night with blanks. Then we'd
do it during the daytime with live ammunition.
And then we would do it at night with live ammunition.
Now, you've got to remember, too, this was 1974,
1975. So we had one night vision device in each
platoon. Most of us had no night vision at all.
There was no flashlights. So if it was dark,
it was real dark. And you'd have a muzzle flash
from the weapons, and that was about it. So you
had to know exactly where you were going to go.
There were bullets that were coming past you
because you'd run up between two guys firing,
and you'd hit the ground, do your three -second
rush, and they'd do their three -second rush,
and the machine guns would be firing. almost
directly over your head but they generally wait
till you fell to the ground before they would
fire and we had mortars and we had 90 millimeters
all going at the same time so yeah very possible
to get killed on at least one occasion that i
can recall we almost did get somebody killed
but uh trained very hard to make sure that didn't
happen well that's not that's really an intense
training i mean that's And plus, you know, I
know that you're running everywhere you seem
to go and in the condition that, you know, probably
the best condition you've ever been in your life.
Yeah, it was the old days of running in jungle
boots and t -shirts. Yeah, no sneakers, shorts.
Mondays were however far the battalion commander
felt like running and he loved 10 milers. I'm
glad mine liked shorter distances than that.
All right. So when you were doing all of these
exercises, folks, as I said, we're talking with
Christopher Brewer here. The book is Old Scroll
Ranger. I can't explain that title there in a
minute. But he goes into really great detail
about what these training missions were all about.
To me, I was exhausted just reading the book
because not only was he, you know, in the swamps,
you know, down in Georgia and all that area down
there, and he's down in Panama where, you know,
they have major bugs and creatures down there.
And then he goes to Alaska to do the same thing,
and he's in, you know, 20, 30 below zero. do
anything so I mean you guys are we're all over
the world just training for what any possible
mission that could come up that was the idea
whatever you could use an infantry battalion
to do they wanted us to be able to do it wow
so did you get deployed anywhere after your training
or would you go off to after that Well, later,
yes. When I was in the battalion the first three
years, there were two times that we came very
close. They were considering us for the Mayaguez
rescue when they took that ship. The battalion
commander at the time didn't feel that we hadn't
done a lot of shipworm, so they sent the Marines
instead. Later on, he told us he regretted that.
He thought we had done a better job, but we didn't
actually deploy. In fact, I don't think the Ranger
Battalion did any actual combat deployments that
I'm aware of until Grenada. And that was well
after I had left. In fact, I was an OCS when
they went to Grenada. Okay. I need to back you
up here then a little bit. So in addition to
all this incredible training that you're going
through, you kind of make the decision. Somebody
asked you if you wanted to be a... An officer.
What made that decision for you? I went to Germany.
Well, I got out of service for a brief period.
Came back in after just a few months, and I reenlisted
for the 509th in Italy. I went over to Italy.
Great unit. Had some good experiences there.
Went up to the 1st and 10th Special Forces Group.
Wasn't qualified, but they had something called
platoon confidence training. And they were taking
Rangers who'd come out of the battalion to be
instructors there. So I got a much closer look
at what Special Forces really does and really
got the bug there. And I re -enlisted, made Sergeant
First Class while I was over there, came back
to Fort Benning, and I re -enlisted specifically
to Ranger School at Fort Benning because in my
mind, I would go back. You always had to be an
instructor at some point in your career. So I
was going to be a Ranger instructor for a couple
of years, and I was going to volunteer for Special
Forces and go on to SF. Sergeant Major at the
Ranger department greeted me and said, welcome,
buy yourself a house. You'll be here for the
rest of your career. So just go ahead and settle
in. And I said, no, Sergeant Major, you don't
understand. I'm going to do my instructor time,
but then I'm going on to other things. He says,
no, you're not. You're at Fort Benning now. we're
critically short of drill instructors you will
be selected to be a drill instructor since you're
here it's now a five -year stabilized tour uh
they won't touch you for about two years so you
can do your commitment here but then after that
you'll go on the trail for five that's seven
years at that time i had about nine years time
of service so you'll have 16 years time service
by the time you get off the trail Might as well
just come on back here for a couple years. If
we have to, we'll put you in the airborne department
for a while, and then you'll have your 20. Oh,
hell no. Who wants to be a drill instructor for
that long? I, you know, oh, God. I would think
that's the worst job ever. Nothing against drills.
No, I'm not against them. I'm just saying it's
the worst job. Nobody liked it. It's a tough
job. And, you know, if I'd have had to, I'd have
gone and been a drill for a couple of years if
I had to. But five, I wasn't seeing it. So I
told him, I'm going to go back. I'm going to
go to SF. And he says, no, you're not. We're
getting rid of SF. Big Army hated SF and their
plan was they're going to get rid of it. Why
didn't they like the Special Forces? big army
is really never like special forces because you've
got guys that are out on their own doing their
own thing they're wearing different uniforms
or no uniforms that doesn't fit into the the
army structure command structure the way the
army sees it okay now now that makes sense because
the special forces guys i worked with i never
knew that they were really special for i wasn't
sure what they were um you know i didn't know
if they were you know regular army if they had
you know if they were mercenaries or or or what
because they never showed up in the same outfit
it just and that's big army's attitude is what
what the hell are they doing where are they who
told them to do that who gave them permission
and and you'll read about that in the second
book that well a lot of times no one gives you
permission you'll be Way far away. And we can
get into that a little bit later. But the bottom
line is that once you go out on a special forces
mission, quite often, especially in the 70s,
you don't have a way to communicate and get specific
instructions on what's happening. You just have
to make a decision on the spot, move forward.
And then when you get a chance, you communicate
to the rear what's going on. But the guys that
are in the field who are making strategic level
decisions sometimes based on the things that
they're doing. And that scares people to death.
So at that time, they were going to get rid of
SF. So no, you're not going to SF. And I said,
well, I'll go back to the Ranger Battalion. And
he laughed at me and says, no, there's a three
-year waiting list for E -7s trying to get in
the Ranger Battalion. You're not going there.
You're going to be a drill sergeant. The only
thing that took priority was OCS. So I did the
ultimate act of betrayal to the NCO Corps, and
I volunteered to be a second lieutenant. Thank
you. Must have taken years for them to start
talking to you again. It's kind of like going
over to the dark side. Yeah, very much so. Because,
you know, I mean, we all realize that the military
and the armies, you know, especially, it's kind
of run by the NCOs. And that must have been really
difficult just for you to go when you were older.
and to go into regular ocs school now you got
to start go running around and having ncos yell
at you for the for you know the duration no i
was lucky when i came out and yeah i did have
but when i i got up a tune in the 82nd airborne
division which is unusual but i had a good record
so i got up there had a first sergeant uh for
sergeant thomas charro who Love to yank the chain
on new second lieutenants. And he came down to
yank mine and basically told me, you better understand,
young lieutenant, I don't like lieutenants. I
just looked up at him and said, you know, first
sergeant, I don't like him much either. We ought
to get along just fine. But he was a great first
sergeant. We rubbed up against one another once
in a while, but we worked a good working relationship.
I had a good platoon sergeant. From there. At
that time, if you were going to stay an officer
in the Army, you had to have a four -year degree.
And I had two years, but not four, so I had to
go to a degree of completion. And then I finally
had the chance to volunteer for SF. Okay, so
now we're going to get into SF. That's interesting,
and you talked about that in the book, that the
Army sent you back to school, in essence, for
two years. Where did you go? Campbell University
in North Carolina, which was an interesting experience.
It's a good university. It's a Baptist university.
They wanted me to sign a statement that I would
not enter any establishment that served alcohol
or drink alcoholic beverages as long as I was
a student. And I explained to the nice lady who
wanted me to sign the statement that, ma 'am.
I'm 32 years old. I'm a newly divorced U .S.
Army officers. And nobody said I had to become
a Baptist to go to this school. And frankly,
I'm feeling like having a beer right now. And
that earned me a trip to the dean's office where
we had to discuss that. But they all agreed that
probably be better if I didn't live in the dormitory.
So I was allowed to get my own place off campus
and I stayed out there and we got along fine.
I can see you sitting in the freshman dorm or
something like that with the 18 -year -olds.
So did you do school full -time until you got
your degree? Yeah, the Army gives you 18 months
to complete two years worth of college. So you
take overloads and there's no time off. You get
it all done and get out. Okay. All right. So
let's talk about... And again, I'm talking with
Chris Brewer here. He's written a couple of books
that are really interesting for those of you
like Rangers and Special Forces and so forth.
One's called The Old Skrull Ranger. And let me
go through that one first of all. It's Old Skrull
Ranger. And I thought, mistakenly thinking, and
I said, my goodness, what does he have a typo
on a cover title of his book? Could you explain
the word Skrull here and why it was important
for you? Sure. When we first formed up, the battalion
commander and sergeant major designed their own
shoulder patch. And they designed a scroll that
said airborne ranger and then 75th infantry down
on the sides. And you see that on the cover.
Right. I'm looking at it right now. Yes. When
second battalion was activated a few months after
first, they didn't like the design that the first
battalion had come up with. So they designed
their own. Also a scroll. but a little bit different.
And then the Institute of Heraldry came down
and said that, well, that's all well and good,
but whatever you're going to wear has to be something
we approve. And they sent down a patch that was
similar to the old Merrill's Marauder patch,
but nobody really liked that very much. So they
went back and forth, and after a period of time,
they finally settled on the scroll that the World
War II Rangers wore, which simply says Ranger.
And it's got the regiment on the side in 75th
Infantry. And that's what the guys wear now.
So what you see on the book is the old scroll.
Right. Okay. Yeah, that's cool. I mean, I like
the old scroll. Really nice. 1st Battalion, 75th
Infantry. On that one. All right. So let's move
on to get you into the Special Forces. What is
the difference? Basically, the difference between
being a ranger and being special forces. Rangers
are light infantry. Very well -trained, well
-equipped light infantry. Have very specific
missions. But you've got privates all the way
up through sergeants, majors, colonels within
that battalion. And they operate as an infantry
unit, whether it's squad, platoon, company, or
full battalion. One of the primary missions for
a ranger unit is airfield seizure. If you absolutely,
positively have to put troops on the ground 1
,500 miles away beyond the range that helicopters
can reach, and you've got to do it right now,
you need to seize an airport. So you send a ranger
battalion, they jump in on the airport, they
seize the airport, and you start flooding an
aircraft. That's one of the primary missions
a ranger bat does. They did very well in Grenada.
They did it again in Panama. They still practice
that to this very day. And, of course, they do
a lot of other things, but as organized units.
Special Forces has a 12 -man A -team. They've
got a commission officer, a warrant officer,
a team sergeant, an intel sergeant. two weapons
sergeants, two engineer explosive sergeants,
two medical sergeants, a total of 12 guys. And
they will go well beyond where anybody else,
they may be operating 1 ,500 miles away by themselves.
If something goes wrong where they are, they're
certainly not going to shoot their way out of
it. So they're going to have to work with the
people that are there where they're going. And
that's the real nexus of what special forces
is all about. They're going to go link up with
a unit or a group of people in a foreign country.
You're either going to help them form their own
military or you're going to help them train to
do better at what they do or find out what's
going on. So special forces can do reconnaissance.
They can do a direct action if it's something
that a... 12 -man team could attack and destroy
with only 12 guys, where you're going to go in,
do it, and get back out. But really, their primary
focus is we're going to work with foreign military
or foreign people to help them organize and fight
on their own. And that's the primary difference
between Rangers and Special Forces. Okay. Got
it. It is, I mean, Special Forces seems to go
in and It doesn't want people to necessarily
know that they're there. Sometimes, and sometimes
it's very public. And you'll see in the second
book, I tried to put in examples of each of the
different types of missions we did at that time.
In those days, we had five doctrinal missions.
Now I think they are up to something like nine.
But direct action, think about a squad going
and attacking. a radar set or something and blowing
it up. But that's that one specific thing that's
got to be destroyed or captured and brought back.
And they're going to sneak in, do it, and they're
going to get right back out again. Special reconnaissance,
100 miles behind the enemy lines, they're going
to hide, watch, report, and if necessary, they'll
walk back out and escape and evade. A little
bit more than what you would expect of Ranger
privates. And then... Unconventional warfare
is training a company or a battalion of people
in a foreign country to organize into a military
unit and fight themselves in their own war. But
you're training them, advising them, working
with them. Very similar to what you saw the guys
do when we went into Afghanistan and they linked
up with the Northern Alliance. FID is Foreign
Internal Defense. We did a lot of that in seventh
group where we'd go down and... work with their
military directly. There's a FID -type mission
in the book where we help set up a medical corpsman
school. We taught the first few classes, and
then we taught them how to be an instructor,
and then we set up a school for them. You mentioned
earlier, before we went on the air, we were talking
about how many countries that Special Forces
have been in, and I don't know if they're there
now because we're not going to give away any
secrets here, but how many Countries have special
forces been in in the last 10 years, would you
say? Well, I'll tell you that when I was an officer
in special forces in the 80s and 90s, on our
briefing slides, we would routinely say that
we were involved in about 132 to 136 countries
at any given time. And it may not be a full 12
-man team. It may be one guy that you sent out
there. It might be two or three. And that's the
other thing that's... different about special
forces and one reason is why a conventional army
really doesn't like it because with that 12 man
what the army looks at as a squad you've got
a captain a master sergeant usually three or
four sergeant first classes and then e6s and
usually the lowest ranking man's in e5 and they
see that as a waste of leadership but the idea
is that's going to help create and train and
advise a battalion And that's why you have the
senior personnel. Right. And you mentioned in
your second book is called In the Shadows Between
the Wars. And in here, you mentioned quite a
few Special Forces operations. And they're all
really interesting. I see movies here in my head,
you know, going around and around. But you, not
only were you in, you know, Grenada and you were
in Panama, but you also were in Colombia. Yeah,
I was not in Grenada. I missed that when I was
in OCS. That's right, yes. We were in Colombia.
Basically, I'd been on a job down in Costa Rica,
came back home, and I was sitting down having
a beer, watching TV. And I saw where the presidential
candidate for Columbia, a man by the name of
Galan, was assassinated by the narcos right on
TV in the middle of a speech in front of a crowd.
And I thought to myself, man, somebody's going
to get a phone call. And I swear, the phone rang
at that moment. We were told to come in the next
day. And the mission was to go to Columbia and
set up a medical corpsman school. The Colombians
at that time didn't have any field medics. So
if they went on a patrol in the jungle and they
got wounded, most times the guys would die because
there was no one there to provide any type of
emergency medical treatment. They'd have to walk
back out. So President George Herbert Bush had
stated that he was going to support Columbia
against the narcos because a little drug war
was starting to evolve, that we would not send
combat troops, but we'd provide whatever logistical
support they needed. When they sent the request
up for the medical school, it was going to be
in Bogota. And Bogota at that time was having
firefights or bombings every day, especially
down in the south part of the city. So they couldn't
really send the normal medical teams that they
would provide to do that. So it came to special
forces. But it had to be six medics. You've only
got two medics on an A team. So that would have
taken the medics from three A teams. And nobody
wanted to do that. but I'd been a medic as a
private. I had two fully qualified medics on
my team. My intel sergeant had been a medic.
My team sergeant could set up the train, the
trainer to learn how to be an instructor. And
we'd take along our commo guy and we'd let him
do the basic first aid and we'd supervise him.
And we all spoke Spanish. I had a two plus, two
plus level. So we got the job. But since... No
combat troops were going to go, according to
the president. We were transferred on orders
from Special Forces to the Security Assistance
Training Management Office, SATMO, which put
us in the same basket of people as all the doctors
and nurses that would normally go. And then we
flew down in civilian clothes with our uniforms
and radios and whatever else we wanted for survival
tucked away in our civilian luggage. And they
gave us a pistol when we got there for self -defense.
And took us down to South Bogota where all the
shooting was going on. Dropped us off and said,
good luck, guys. Let us know once a month that
you're still alive. And this is the only ride
we can give you from here on out. You're on your
own. And we went to work. Wow. And you did your
job well. And you mentioned earlier on in our
conversation that this was way before cell phones.
communication was spotty at best we had a 74
bravo high frequency radio that we put in our
civilian luggage and uh part of the idea of doing
the satmo thing was that we knew that the narcos
had people in a lot of the government offices
so if we went down as green beret special forces
that would be seen on the air air manifest so
we went down as medical personnel working for
satmo so that helped it wasn't a cover story
per se but that helped conceal the fact that
we were special forces coming in from the bad
guys because there was a reward of i think it
was like twenty thousand dollars dead fifty thousand
dollars alive if anyone would uh turn over a
green beret to the narcos because they were watching
for us at that time but that got us in and that
got us set up And then once we were there, over
the six months we were there, the Mill Group
decided to use us for other things. I know you
were sent out all over the, seems like all over
the country side in the book. I've been talking
here with Christopher Brewer. We're going to
have to wrap this up. But this is in the shadows
between the wars and jumped out of perfectly
good airplanes. Did you do any Halo jumps? I
wasn't military Halo qualified, but in the 509th,
we did some free fall for demonstrations and
competitions. So I put a chapter in there that
talks about what that's like, just so everybody
could kind of get a feel for that. I tried to
put a little bit in the book that'll let you
know a little bit about everything that Special
Forces does, at least at that time. I think it's
important for our audience to understand that,
you know, with all the different branches of
the service and all of the different things that
these branches do, that these two books, at least
these two, when you said there's another one
coming out after you, you know, became a civilian
contractor, that I would encourage them to get.
The one is called Old Scroll Ranger. The other
one is called In the Shadows Between the Wars
by Christopher Brewer, who retired. Major, correct?
Correct. From the United States. How many years
did you spend in the service? 24 years. Okay.
This guy knows what he's talking about, folks.
And the books show that. And I encourage you
to go. You can get them on Amazon. Probably get
them most anywhere. That's where I got them.
And they came in the next day. That was kind
of cool. So, Chris, I want to thank you so very
much for being on Veterans Radio. Let me know
when the next one comes out. I'd like to find
out more about that during the next adventure.
Okay. And the second one will be coming out in
an audio book here soon. They're going through
the final editing on that now that people are
too busy to read. Okay. Now we want them to read.
Audio books are good. I'll tell you, it's...
Both of them are great stories. The second one
is more frightening than the first one. But anyway,
thank you very much, Chris, for being on Veterans
Radio. Look forward to talking to you sometime
in the future. Thank you for having me. I appreciate
it. Okay. We're going to take a real quick break.
And when we come back, we're going to go right
to Jim Fausone's interview with the MVBDC person,
Bill Elmore. But right now you're going to be
listening to our Medal of Honor. So you're listening
to Veterans Radio. I'll be back after Jim's interview.
The Medal of Honor is the highest award for valor
in combat given a member of the Armed Forces
of the United States. There have been over 3
,400 recipients of the nation's highest award.
This is one of them. Sergeant First Class Paul
Smith gave his life to protect his troops. Details
after this. If you have a VA claim denied by
the Board of Veterans Appeals, contact Legal
Help for Veterans at 1 -800 -693 -4800. They're
experts in handling cases before the U .S. Court
of Appeals for veterans' claims. Their number
again, 1 -800 -693 -4800. On April 4, 2003, a
call went out for a place to put some Iraqi prisoners.
Sergeant First Class Paul Smith volunteered to
create a holding pen inside a walled courtyard.
Soon, Iraqi soldiers, numbering perhaps 100,
opened fire on Smith's position. Smith was accompanied
by 16 men. Smith called for a Bradley, a tank
-like vehicle with a rapid -fire cannon. It arrived
and opened up on the Iraqis. The enemy could
not advance so long as the Bradley was in position.
But then, in a move that baffled and angered
Smith's men, the Bradley left. Smith's men, some
of whom were wounded, were suddenly vulnerable.
Smith could have justifiably ordered his men
to withdraw. Smith rejected that option, thinking
that abandoning the courtyard would jeopardize
about 100 GIs outside, including medics at an
aid station. He manned a .50 caliber machine
gun atop an abandoned armored personnel carrier
and fought off the Iraqis going through several
boxes of ammunition. As the battle wound down,
Smith was hit in the head. He died before he
could be evacuated from the scene. The Medal
of Honor series is a production of Veterans Radio.
Military veterans touch everyone's life. I'm
guessing right now you're thinking of a veteran,
a close friend, relative. Maybe it's you. Even
the toughest of us sometimes need help but don't
know where to turn for support. You don't need
special training to help a veteran in your life.
We can all help someone going through a difficult
time. Learn how you can be there for veterans.
Visit VeteransCrisisLine .net. VeteransCrisisLine
.net. A message from the U .S. Department of
Veterans Affairs. Welcome. I am Jim Fossone,
and this is Veterans Radio's spotlight on National
Veteran Business Development Council, better
known as NVBDC .org. Veterans Radio has a partnership
with NVBDC. It is the nation's leading third
-party authority for certification of veteran
-owned businesses of all size. It's a 501c3 nonprofit
established in 2013, so now a decade of... certifying
veteran -owned businesses to assist commercial
and government buyers to make sure that they're
actually working with legitimate veteran -owned
businesses. It's a rigorous certification process
designed to withstand the scrutiny of governmental
and corporate entities. seeking to utilize certified
VOBs. And we're really pleased to have today
on Veterans Radio Bill Elmore. I'm going to give
you more about Bill in a minute, but Bill, welcome
to Veterans Radio. Well, thank you, Jim. I appreciate
the opportunity. So Bill is sort of the godfather
of veteran -owned businesses, and he has been
supporting veteran -owned businesses. for his
entire professional career but let me back up
a little bit to put some context around that
it starts as a simple kid who joins the united
states air force and spends a little time in
texas illinois oklahoma you go on after a discharge
to work at a couple of veteran -centric places
including the va national record personnel records
center in st louis so many of us know that from
the so -called great fire destroying records
you went on into further work to as the executive
director for the st louis area veteran service
centers you took some of that experience and
said hey i'm going to help people retrieve their
records from nprc and then found your way into
the u .s small business association or administration
i should say sba and that's kind of where this
story really starts Ultimately, I ended up creating
back in the 1980s what was called the Veterans
Entrepreneurship Training Program here in St.
Louis. And in two -plus years, we trained almost
200 veterans and their spouses and their survivors,
if they were widows, in entrepreneurship. And
the program was incredibly successful. And the
other thing it did for me... was it exposed me
to a whole community of already successful, mostly
Vietnam veterans, that were in the business world
in St. Louis, who in those days knew each other
professionally, but none of them knew each other
as veterans. Let me jump in here, because this
is, veteran radio listeners, this is the start
of what we see now. 45 years later, where there
are entrepreneurial boot camps and universities
have specific programs to help veterans get into
business, and government programs exist at the
state, local, and federal levels. But in the
80s, in the late 70s and early 80s, none of this
existed, and even the concept of what a certified
veteran -owned business didn't really exist,
did it, Bill Gilmore? No, it did not exist, and
I'll give you, Just to touch a history, the original
1944 GI Bill included small business lending
for veterans. In December 1974, Congress deauthorized
small business lending to veterans in the GI
Bill. So for 30 years, we had a lot of help coming
out of the federal sector for veteran entrepreneurs
in 74 when our generation came home. and was
coming home still, virtually all the assistance
that had been delivered to previous generations
of veterans disappeared. We are talking to Bill
Elmore. He was the founding associate administrator
for the Veterans Business Development at the
SBA and the creator of the SBA Office of Veterans
Business Development, Now, NVBDC, talking about
how much this has grown, recently put out a report
talking about the Billion Dollar Roundtable and
looking at veteran -owned, NVBDC -certified veteran
-owned businesses, and the Business Roundtable
reports something like $4 .3 billion spend. directed
specifically to NVBDC certified businesses. Still
can't hear me. How can you hear me now? Right.
Okay. That's what happened. So how much time
have I got? One minute. Okay. So. Anyway, that
was Jim Fassone talking with Bill Elmore from
NBBDC. That whole interview will be able to be
here in a podcast in the next couple of weeks.
We're going to go out today like we usually do
on God Bless America. This version, we're going
to have Jimmy Fortin and Sonia Isaacs Yearly
are the singers in this particular version. As
you know, I love this song and I love this country
and I think it's just... helpful to us to know
that there are many of us out here that want
to know that we can preserve what we've got.
And I think that that's really important. Next
week, we're going to be talking, it's going to
be Memorial Day. So we are going to be talking
about what Memorial Day really is. And, you know,
it's to honor those that didn't come home. And
so we're going to be talking about that. So we've
got that and we've got a number of things coming
up. But anyway, we want to thank you all very
much for listening. Until next week, you are
dismissed. Stand beside her and guide her Through
the night with a light from above From the mountains
to the prairies To the oceans white with foam
God bless America My home sweet home God bless
America My home sweet home