WEBVTT 00:00:04.809 --> 00:00:08.210 All across America and around the world, this 00:00:08.210 --> 00:00:14.830 is Veterans Radio. This is Veterans Radio. And 00:00:14.830 --> 00:00:18.710 now, your host for today's program, Dale Throneberry. 00:00:21.739 --> 00:00:24.839 Hey, welcome to Veterans Radio. My name is Dale 00:00:24.839 --> 00:00:27.839 Throneberry, CW2 helicopter pilot in Vietnam. 00:00:27.839 --> 00:00:31.199 We want to welcome you to Veterans Radio today. 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:33.960 I'm really excited to have you here. We've got 00:00:33.960 --> 00:00:36.659 two guests that are going to be on. One is Christopher 00:00:36.659 --> 00:00:41.100 Brewer. He's an airborne ranger, all kinds of 00:00:41.100 --> 00:00:43.179 stuff. He's going to be talking about training 00:00:43.179 --> 00:00:45.119 that he went through and some of the missions 00:00:45.119 --> 00:00:47.579 that he was on. So I'm really excited to have 00:00:47.579 --> 00:00:53.920 Chris on the program. one of our NVBDC interviews 00:00:53.920 --> 00:00:58.280 that my partner Jim Fausone did with Bill Elmore. 00:00:59.079 --> 00:01:02.140 I'll talk about NVBDC a little bit more in a 00:01:02.140 --> 00:01:04.760 second. If you would like to get in on the conversation 00:01:04.760 --> 00:01:07.819 today, feel free to give us a call. The number 00:01:07.819 --> 00:01:15.879 is 734 -822 -1600. 734 -822 -1600. I almost gave 00:01:15.879 --> 00:01:21.200 you my cell phone number. So before we get into 00:01:21.200 --> 00:01:24.060 the actual program, let me talk about our sponsors 00:01:24.060 --> 00:01:26.700 because we can't do this program without them. 00:01:26.739 --> 00:01:29.219 We were really grateful to our corporate sponsors. 00:01:29.500 --> 00:01:32.060 And we're also grateful, of course, to you for 00:01:32.060 --> 00:01:34.900 your continued support of Veterans Radio. You 00:01:34.900 --> 00:01:38.120 know, we've been doing this program now since 00:01:38.120 --> 00:01:41.579 2003. So it's a little over 1100 programs that 00:01:41.579 --> 00:01:44.609 we've done. And we couldn't have ever done this 00:01:44.609 --> 00:01:47.870 without your support. So again, we thank you 00:01:47.870 --> 00:01:50.790 from the whole crew for Veterans Radio. So today, 00:01:50.950 --> 00:01:53.030 I want to make sure that we thank our major donors. 00:01:53.129 --> 00:01:55.750 Number one is Legal Help for Veterans. Legal 00:01:55.750 --> 00:01:58.849 Help for Veterans specializes in veterans' disability 00:01:58.849 --> 00:02:02.730 claims. Call Legal Help for Veterans at 800 -693 00:02:02.730 --> 00:02:06.790 -4800 or go to their website, legalhelpforveterans 00:02:06.790 --> 00:02:09.900 .com. The National Veterans Business Development 00:02:09.900 --> 00:02:13.580 Council, better known as NVBDC, is the nation's 00:02:13.580 --> 00:02:15.620 leading third -party authority for certification 00:02:15.620 --> 00:02:18.560 of veteran -owned businesses. For more information, 00:02:18.699 --> 00:02:22.319 go to their website, NVBDC .org, or give them 00:02:22.319 --> 00:02:29.000 a call at 888 -237 -8433. Remember, the NVBDC, 00:02:29.240 --> 00:02:32.020 what they do is if you are a veteran -owned business, 00:02:33.069 --> 00:02:36.569 And you want to work with the federal government 00:02:36.569 --> 00:02:39.969 or with many corporations, you need to become 00:02:39.969 --> 00:02:42.569 certified that says that you actually are a real 00:02:42.569 --> 00:02:45.370 live veteran -owned business. Evidently, there's 00:02:45.370 --> 00:02:47.229 some people out there that kind of fudge on that 00:02:47.229 --> 00:02:51.069 a little bit. So NVBDC is the people that can 00:02:51.069 --> 00:02:53.530 help you out do that. So give them a call. I'll 00:02:53.530 --> 00:02:57.289 give that number to you again, 888 -237 -8433. 00:02:58.300 --> 00:03:01.039 Puro Clean. Puro Clean are known as the paramedics 00:03:01.039 --> 00:03:03.840 of property damage. And each Puro Clean office 00:03:03.840 --> 00:03:06.479 is independently owned and operated. In fact, 00:03:06.479 --> 00:03:09.560 they're one of the largest leading restoration 00:03:09.560 --> 00:03:12.879 franchise networks made up of entrepreneurs out 00:03:12.879 --> 00:03:16.860 there like you. And veterans get a 25 % off their 00:03:16.860 --> 00:03:19.099 franchise fee. So for more information, go to 00:03:19.099 --> 00:03:22.930 thepuroclean .com. The Charles S. Kettles VA 00:03:22.930 --> 00:03:25.349 Medical Center here in Ann Arbor, Michigan. For 00:03:25.349 --> 00:03:29.370 more information, go to va .gov slash annarborhealthcare. 00:03:29.689 --> 00:03:32.810 And finally, the Erwin Preshkorn American Legion 00:03:32.810 --> 00:03:36.650 Post 46 and the Charles S. Kettles Vietnam Veterans 00:03:36.650 --> 00:03:40.750 of America Chapter 310, both of Ann Arbor, Michigan. 00:03:41.729 --> 00:03:44.490 If you'd like to support Veterans Radio, which 00:03:44.490 --> 00:03:47.719 of course we would hope you would do. Please 00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:50.539 go to our website, veteransradio .org, and click 00:03:50.539 --> 00:03:54.280 on the Donate button. And thank you for supporting 00:03:54.280 --> 00:03:57.139 Veterans Radio. Oh, I got a quick little announcement 00:03:57.139 --> 00:03:59.780 for you. I want you to mark your calendar. Mark 00:03:59.780 --> 00:04:03.580 your calendar for Sunday, September 28th. And 00:04:03.580 --> 00:04:07.139 that's going to be our fourth, I think it is, 00:04:07.180 --> 00:04:10.520 Radio on the River fundraiser. And it's going 00:04:10.520 --> 00:04:13.219 to be out at a place called Freedom River here 00:04:13.219 --> 00:04:17.779 in Michigan. And we've got... Michigan Flight 00:04:17.779 --> 00:04:20.399 Museum is providing us with a Huey helicopter 00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:24.540 for people to get rides on. Yay. And we've got 00:04:24.540 --> 00:04:27.480 musicians are going to be there. Lem Genovese 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:30.579 is a Vietnam veteran. He's going to be coming 00:04:30.579 --> 00:04:33.300 out and doing some songs for you. We've got speakers. 00:04:33.459 --> 00:04:35.839 We've got food. We've got all kinds of things 00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:39.060 for you. So mark that calendar. Sunday, September 00:04:39.060 --> 00:04:44.790 28th from, I think it's going to be 1 to 5. is 00:04:44.790 --> 00:04:47.110 what it's going to be. So you can check it. It's 00:04:47.110 --> 00:04:48.889 on our website right there on the front page 00:04:48.889 --> 00:04:51.850 of our website. So I look forward to seeing you 00:04:51.850 --> 00:04:53.850 out there. That's Radio on the River, September 00:04:53.850 --> 00:04:56.230 28th. It's not a home game for you people who 00:04:56.230 --> 00:04:59.069 live in the Ann Arbor area. So it's okay. You 00:04:59.069 --> 00:05:03.490 can go out to the game, our game this time. All 00:05:03.490 --> 00:05:05.750 right. So let's get right into our interview 00:05:05.750 --> 00:05:09.370 here. And my first guest today is Christopher 00:05:09.370 --> 00:05:13.470 Brewer. And Christopher. Has written a number 00:05:13.470 --> 00:05:16.930 of books. He's an Army Ranger. He's Special Forces. 00:05:17.089 --> 00:05:21.529 He's a little bit of everything. The book is 00:05:21.529 --> 00:05:23.769 Old Scroll Ranger. And the second one that I 00:05:23.769 --> 00:05:25.829 read was called In the Shadows Between the Wars. 00:05:26.110 --> 00:05:27.930 So we're going to be talking with Chris about 00:05:27.930 --> 00:05:30.149 how he got into the military and some of the 00:05:30.149 --> 00:05:32.449 training that he had to go through. And then 00:05:32.449 --> 00:05:35.029 we're going to talk about some of the missions 00:05:35.029 --> 00:05:37.790 that he was on that we're allowed to talk about. 00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:42.639 We'll see. So joining me online right now is 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:44.720 Christopher Brewer. Chris, welcome to Veterans 00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:47.860 Radio. Yeah, thank you very much for having me. 00:05:48.459 --> 00:05:52.720 All right. So tell me, take us back in time a 00:05:52.720 --> 00:05:55.839 little bit and tell me, how did you get involved 00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:59.980 in the military to begin with? Well, I was an 00:05:59.980 --> 00:06:03.490 Army brat. I grew up all my life. Moving from 00:06:03.490 --> 00:06:06.230 base to base, my father was in the Army. And 00:06:06.230 --> 00:06:08.649 it just was a natural transition. When I went 00:06:08.649 --> 00:06:11.069 to college, I went to what was at that time North 00:06:11.069 --> 00:06:14.230 Georgia Military College. And like a lot of young 00:06:14.230 --> 00:06:16.990 people, I was tired of studying and struggling 00:06:16.990 --> 00:06:19.550 a bit with it and saw some of the advertisements 00:06:19.550 --> 00:06:23.430 for Special Forces. So I enlisted in 20th Special 00:06:23.430 --> 00:06:26.250 Forces Group National Guard to help pay the bills. 00:06:27.089 --> 00:06:30.589 Got the bug. So on something else later on about 00:06:30.589 --> 00:06:32.709 the 1st Ranger Battalion that was being activated, 00:06:32.949 --> 00:06:36.290 1st full Ranger Battalion since World War II, 00:06:36.430 --> 00:06:39.370 and decided I wanted to be a part of it. So I 00:06:39.370 --> 00:06:41.050 went ahead and enlisted in the regular Army, 00:06:41.209 --> 00:06:43.550 joined the 1st Ranger Battalion in the middle 00:06:43.550 --> 00:06:46.050 of their activation test at Fort Stewart in 1974. 00:06:47.470 --> 00:06:50.930 Okay. So you were at Fort Stewart then? Correct. 00:06:51.389 --> 00:06:55.670 That's where Hunter Airfield was? Hunter is in 00:06:55.670 --> 00:06:58.680 Savannah. I mean, are they close? I don't know. 00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:02.399 During the Vietnam era, they had flight schools, 00:07:02.620 --> 00:07:05.939 advanced flight schools at Fort Rucker, Alabama, 00:07:06.100 --> 00:07:11.019 and at Hunter Army Airfield outside of Savannah 00:07:11.019 --> 00:07:13.939 at the same time. That's why we're trying to 00:07:13.939 --> 00:07:17.579 make that connection. Okay. So where did you 00:07:17.579 --> 00:07:21.180 do your basic training? I did my basic training 00:07:21.180 --> 00:07:25.000 at Fort Pope, Louisiana. Went out to Fort Sam 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:27.240 Houston for the medic training. Now, since I 00:07:27.240 --> 00:07:30.699 was only about 18, 19 years old at the time, 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:32.519 the only thing I could do in Special Forces, 00:07:32.579 --> 00:07:34.459 the way they were configured in those days, was 00:07:34.459 --> 00:07:37.579 be a medic. Those were the only two trainings 00:07:37.579 --> 00:07:39.779 that I completed before the Rangers came up. 00:07:39.879 --> 00:07:42.899 And when the Rangers came up, again, being young 00:07:42.899 --> 00:07:45.680 and foolish, I decided I wanted to be an infantryman. 00:07:46.139 --> 00:07:48.980 So I insisted on going back to Fort Polk, Louisiana 00:07:48.980 --> 00:07:51.740 to be an infantryman and then to jump school 00:07:51.740 --> 00:07:56.100 and then to the ranger band. Okay. I had the 00:07:56.100 --> 00:07:58.639 privilege of going through Fort Polk for basic 00:07:58.639 --> 00:08:02.740 training myself. What a lovely area of the world. 00:08:03.300 --> 00:08:08.160 That's what I thought anyway. First place in 00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:11.879 the combat infantryman. I said, there's a mistake 00:08:11.879 --> 00:08:13.720 here. I'm supposed to be going to flight school. 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:15.860 What are you doing sending me to this place? 00:08:16.300 --> 00:08:19.439 All right. So let's talk about the differences 00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:23.939 between, you know, you go through regular basic 00:08:23.939 --> 00:08:25.600 and everybody who's been through at least the 00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:28.579 Army basic training is pretty much the same all 00:08:28.579 --> 00:08:31.879 across the country. But then you came back. Was 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:36.399 that considered AIT for infantry? Correct. Okay. 00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:40.559 And then that's another eight weeks of. Running 00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:45.399 around the trumps and stuff of Louisiana. And 00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:47.340 then off to ranger school. Where was ranger school? 00:08:47.960 --> 00:08:50.240 Ranger school didn't happen until much later. 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:54.360 At those days, for the ranger battalion, you'd 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:56.700 come directly there. And then after a period 00:08:56.700 --> 00:08:58.980 of time, they would send you to ranger school 00:08:58.980 --> 00:09:02.019 if they deemed you worthy. And also at that time 00:09:02.019 --> 00:09:06.379 in the 70s, if you went into ranger school as 00:09:06.379 --> 00:09:09.889 a PFC, you'd use... Certainly as a spec four, 00:09:10.009 --> 00:09:12.149 you'd come out as a sergeant and you got promoted. 00:09:12.590 --> 00:09:14.490 So they wouldn't allow me to go to ranger school 00:09:14.490 --> 00:09:18.649 until they decided that they wanted me to be 00:09:18.649 --> 00:09:22.830 a sergeant in the ranger battalion. Okay. So 00:09:22.830 --> 00:09:26.110 in the meantime, did you, did you go to jump 00:09:26.110 --> 00:09:28.789 school before ranger school or, or how did that 00:09:28.789 --> 00:09:31.269 work? Yeah, you've got to be airborne qualified 00:09:31.269 --> 00:09:34.210 to be in the ranger bat. So I picked up a jump 00:09:34.210 --> 00:09:37.950 school in route. So I showed up there as a. Airborne 00:09:37.950 --> 00:09:42.330 qualified five -jump -chump PFC in the middle 00:09:42.330 --> 00:09:45.389 of their activation test where they were pushing 00:09:45.389 --> 00:09:47.330 them as hard as they could possibly do so to 00:09:47.330 --> 00:09:49.490 see just how much a Ranger battalion could take. 00:09:50.370 --> 00:09:52.929 And one of the reasons in reading your book, 00:09:52.990 --> 00:09:54.690 we're talking here with Christopher Brewer, and 00:09:54.690 --> 00:09:56.889 one of the two books that we're going to talk 00:09:56.889 --> 00:10:00.009 about today is called Old Scroll of Ranger. And 00:10:00.009 --> 00:10:03.769 in this, you were talking about how they wanted 00:10:03.769 --> 00:10:08.899 to remold. American military after, you know, 00:10:08.919 --> 00:10:11.700 what had happened in Vietnam. And they wanted 00:10:11.700 --> 00:10:15.220 to kind of rebuild from the ground up almost 00:10:15.220 --> 00:10:18.679 as far as, you know, Rangers were concerned and 00:10:18.679 --> 00:10:20.620 so forth. Could you talk about that a little 00:10:20.620 --> 00:10:24.460 bit? Yeah, General Creighton Abrams felt that 00:10:24.460 --> 00:10:27.700 we had a lot of problems in the Army after Vietnam. 00:10:28.019 --> 00:10:31.080 There was a lot of drug use. We didn't have urinalysis 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:33.539 back then. There were racial divisions. There 00:10:33.539 --> 00:10:36.429 was morale. especially the way Vietnam ended. 00:10:36.889 --> 00:10:40.450 Morale was really low army -wide. So his thought 00:10:40.450 --> 00:10:43.490 was we're going to form a ranger battalion, get 00:10:43.490 --> 00:10:45.529 the best people we can in there, train them the 00:10:45.529 --> 00:10:47.149 way we want them to be, and then we're going 00:10:47.149 --> 00:10:51.289 to send them out throughout the army as NCOs 00:10:51.289 --> 00:10:53.029 and officers to go ahead and bring the standards 00:10:53.029 --> 00:10:56.110 of the army as a whole up. So after the first 00:10:56.110 --> 00:10:59.230 two, that's about the third year we were together. 00:10:59.929 --> 00:11:01.809 that started to happen. Everybody was there. 00:11:01.870 --> 00:11:03.789 One of the originals, they started going out 00:11:03.789 --> 00:11:06.710 to all the regulatory units across the world. 00:11:07.230 --> 00:11:10.570 Oh, okay. Right. Well, that makes sense. I mean, 00:11:10.590 --> 00:11:12.509 considering that this is also at the time where 00:11:12.509 --> 00:11:18.570 now we've got the volunteer army going and yeah, 00:11:18.850 --> 00:11:21.269 no, I was, I was curious about that. And that, 00:11:21.370 --> 00:11:24.070 you know, it made sense. I was thinking while 00:11:24.070 --> 00:11:27.850 I was reading the book about the morale going 00:11:27.850 --> 00:11:31.159 down because everything, You know, the Army doesn't 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:34.000 live in a vacuum. Even in Vietnam, you could 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:35.840 start seeing, especially toward the end of the 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:40.120 Vietnam War, that the problems that we were having 00:11:40.120 --> 00:11:43.779 here at home were coming over because they were, 00:11:43.779 --> 00:11:47.399 you know, they were drafting anybody, you know, 00:11:47.399 --> 00:11:49.899 anybody and everybody that was kind of left in 00:11:49.899 --> 00:11:53.259 the country, I think. And so some of those issues, 00:11:53.299 --> 00:11:56.940 as you mentioned, you know, the drug use. The 00:11:56.940 --> 00:11:59.620 racial issues, some of insubordination and those 00:11:59.620 --> 00:12:02.039 types of things were going on even when I was 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:05.399 in the service until I got home. And I think 00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:09.120 that the idea of, it's interesting that Creighton 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:13.600 Abrams was a guy who did this whole thing. Yeah, 00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:16.740 and we've got a quote from him in the book. uh 00:12:16.740 --> 00:12:19.360 preface of the book that's the direct quote from 00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:21.580 creighton abrams and that's that's the whole 00:12:21.580 --> 00:12:24.600 purpose of the ranger battalion in his mind now 00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:27.080 it evolved into a lot more since then over the 00:12:27.080 --> 00:12:30.159 years and the guys are young guys that are out 00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:32.379 of regiment are into things that we could have 00:12:32.379 --> 00:12:37.379 only dreamed of back in 74. okay yeah he says 00:12:37.379 --> 00:12:39.299 wherever the bell wherever the battalion goes 00:12:39.299 --> 00:12:44.000 it will be apparent that it is the best and that 00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:47.740 was a standard uh And it actually was a little, 00:12:47.899 --> 00:12:52.080 the NCOs and the officers, every one of them 00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:55.639 had combat experience except for one guy. Most 00:12:55.639 --> 00:12:59.399 of them came out of the long -range reconnaissance 00:12:59.399 --> 00:13:04.879 patrol units, SOGs, Studies and Observation Group, 00:13:05.080 --> 00:13:08.320 Special Forces out of Vietnam. So that was a 00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:11.279 pretty impressive crew to come in as a young 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:14.509 PFC. Those were all your leaders. Yeah, I can 00:13:14.509 --> 00:13:18.490 imagine that would be. Yeah, some of those guys 00:13:18.490 --> 00:13:22.629 were, some of them were actually a little scary, 00:13:22.870 --> 00:13:26.889 but they were also very, very proficient in what 00:13:26.889 --> 00:13:30.629 they did. Some of those guys were very scary, 00:13:30.690 --> 00:13:34.169 especially your PFC working for them. I would 00:13:34.169 --> 00:13:38.529 think so, yeah. I'm sure that they, you know. 00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:40.919 Before you had your own adventures, they had 00:13:40.919 --> 00:13:42.659 stories that would make their hair on the back 00:13:42.659 --> 00:13:46.120 of your neck stand on end, I'm sure. Oh, and 00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:49.480 we'd hear them all, too. It's kind of interesting. 00:13:49.639 --> 00:13:51.860 In fact, there was one guy that had been an E 00:13:51.860 --> 00:13:57.519 -7 in Vietnam, one of those. And he got a battlefield 00:13:57.519 --> 00:13:59.799 promotion, and he was the only second lieutenant 00:13:59.799 --> 00:14:01.840 in the Ranger Battalion. This was a guy who had 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:04.399 been a sergeant, first -class ranger, lerp, in 00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:07.559 Vietnam. And he's not your average second lieutenant. 00:14:08.449 --> 00:14:11.049 He actually had the guys in his platoon out there 00:14:11.049 --> 00:14:14.750 one day lined up with a table and a medic and 00:14:14.750 --> 00:14:18.629 an eight bag and a 22 caliber pistol. And his 00:14:18.629 --> 00:14:21.750 logic was that you have to know what it's like 00:14:21.750 --> 00:14:25.350 to be shot. He'd been shot many times. So if 00:14:25.350 --> 00:14:27.429 you've been shot, then it's not a shock when 00:14:27.429 --> 00:14:29.250 it happens to you and you can push on through 00:14:29.250 --> 00:14:32.470 it. So as he was explaining it to his guys, men. 00:14:33.610 --> 00:14:35.389 I'm going to bring up here. I'm going to shoot 00:14:35.389 --> 00:14:37.450 you with this 22 caliber pistol, but just in 00:14:37.450 --> 00:14:39.730 the leg, just in the calf of the leg in the meaty 00:14:39.730 --> 00:14:41.850 part. And the medic here is going to take care 00:14:41.850 --> 00:14:45.230 of you. And you'll be excused from the run part 00:14:45.230 --> 00:14:47.710 of physical training for a whole week while you 00:14:47.710 --> 00:14:49.789 heal up. But that's just so you know what it's 00:14:49.789 --> 00:14:52.070 like. And fortunately, the company commander 00:14:52.070 --> 00:14:54.230 was coming by and he kind of stepped in and said, 00:14:54.309 --> 00:14:56.509 no, no, I don't think we're going to do that 00:14:56.509 --> 00:15:04.210 today. Oh. To the immense relief of the guys 00:15:04.210 --> 00:15:07.730 in the platoon. I can only imagine what was going 00:15:07.730 --> 00:15:10.370 through their minds at that time. What if he 00:15:10.370 --> 00:15:14.429 misses? What if he hits a bone? There's some 00:15:14.429 --> 00:15:16.850 question as to whether or not he just was kidding 00:15:16.850 --> 00:15:19.990 and doing that for effect. But boy, we sure believed 00:15:19.990 --> 00:15:25.610 him. Oh, I can understand that. All right. So 00:15:25.610 --> 00:15:28.850 we've gone on. We've gone to jump school. You've 00:15:28.850 --> 00:15:32.809 gotten. promoted already up to sergeant, which 00:15:32.809 --> 00:15:36.870 is pretty good right away. So where did we go 00:15:36.870 --> 00:15:41.149 from here? Well, we came in and then the battalion 00:15:41.149 --> 00:15:44.049 went through a lot. We did our initial training. 00:15:44.129 --> 00:15:46.350 We did our activation tests. They experimented, 00:15:46.350 --> 00:15:49.309 all kinds of experiments. So we went to Fort 00:15:49.309 --> 00:15:53.230 Bragg and we basically walked for three days 00:15:53.230 --> 00:15:55.470 and three nights. and the only time we would 00:15:55.470 --> 00:15:57.529 stop was we'd stop we'd dig a fighting position 00:15:57.529 --> 00:16:00.870 as soon as it was done done correctly we'd fill 00:16:00.870 --> 00:16:02.870 it back in we put our rucks on we start walking 00:16:02.870 --> 00:16:05.169 again we did that for three days three nights 00:16:05.169 --> 00:16:08.710 without stop no rest and then we had a company 00:16:08.710 --> 00:16:12.649 live fire and that was to see how men would respond 00:16:12.649 --> 00:16:15.049 and react under stress with all the training 00:16:15.049 --> 00:16:19.480 that we had and Great training, most of it with 00:16:19.480 --> 00:16:21.980 live ammunition. They emphasized that we're not 00:16:21.980 --> 00:16:24.940 playing around. This is live. You can kill somebody 00:16:24.940 --> 00:16:27.740 if you make a mistake. So every round has to 00:16:27.740 --> 00:16:30.279 be aimed. Every motion has to be calculated. 00:16:30.659 --> 00:16:32.600 You have to do exactly what we've taught you 00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:35.559 to do or you can get killed. And that was kind 00:16:35.559 --> 00:16:38.620 of a culmination there because I literally don't 00:16:38.620 --> 00:16:41.600 remember anything about that third night other 00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:43.519 than crawling for a while and then firing my 00:16:43.519 --> 00:16:46.139 weapon. Other than that, it was muscle memory. 00:16:46.730 --> 00:16:49.710 But then they took us on the road. So we went 00:16:49.710 --> 00:16:52.730 to a Reforger in Germany. We worked against the 00:16:52.730 --> 00:16:56.549 101st Airborne Division. We went from Reforger 00:16:56.549 --> 00:16:59.330 to the Jungle Operations Training Course in Panama. 00:17:00.950 --> 00:17:03.629 And Rangers in the Jungle, there's a chapter 00:17:03.629 --> 00:17:06.769 in that in the book. And then we went from there 00:17:06.769 --> 00:17:09.890 back to Fort Stewart, and we did an in -flight 00:17:09.890 --> 00:17:14.769 rig, flew all the way to Alaska in February. 00:17:15.450 --> 00:17:18.750 and jumped in up at Fairbanks, close to the Arctic 00:17:18.750 --> 00:17:22.430 Circle, and got a bit of winter warfare training. 00:17:22.589 --> 00:17:24.750 And then we went up above the Arctic Circle onto 00:17:24.750 --> 00:17:28.190 the North Slope and did a simulated attack on 00:17:28.190 --> 00:17:31.730 the pipeline. So that got us through all the 00:17:31.730 --> 00:17:34.849 various things that Rangers might do. And of 00:17:34.849 --> 00:17:36.829 course, with that, one of our primary missions 00:17:36.829 --> 00:17:39.630 was always airfield seizures. So we'd practice 00:17:39.630 --> 00:17:42.990 constantly to jump in and seize airports. And 00:17:42.990 --> 00:17:45.619 then we branched out. We started going to Halo 00:17:45.619 --> 00:17:50.059 School. I was the first one to go to the Special 00:17:50.059 --> 00:17:53.099 Forces Underwater Operations course with Scuba 00:17:53.099 --> 00:17:55.160 School. Can I back you up just a little bit, 00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:57.779 Chris? And can we explain to our audience what 00:17:57.779 --> 00:18:01.220 some of these things that you were doing? I mean, 00:18:01.240 --> 00:18:06.960 this live fire thing got my attention. This is 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:08.740 not, for those of you that went through base, 00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:10.779 this is not the live thing where we crawled under 00:18:10.779 --> 00:18:13.359 the wire and they were shooting over our heads. 00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:15.759 You know, it seemed like it was right over the 00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:17.559 top of our heads, but I think I know it was like 00:18:17.559 --> 00:18:21.619 nine feet or something. This is much more a close 00:18:21.619 --> 00:18:25.980 -in fire, isn't it? Yeah, day and night. Usually, 00:18:26.180 --> 00:18:29.039 when we were going to do a live fire exercise, 00:18:29.299 --> 00:18:33.240 we'd go out, we'd pick a section of forest or 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:36.599 swamp or desert, whatever it was. And the standard 00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:38.400 was pretty much always the same, whether it was 00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:41.920 a defense or when there's an attack. First, we 00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:43.980 do a walk -through, talk -through. Everybody 00:18:43.980 --> 00:18:45.799 would go out and we'd discuss what we were going 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:47.900 to do, how we were going to do it. We'd practice 00:18:47.900 --> 00:18:50.660 that. Then we'd come back and we would do it 00:18:50.660 --> 00:18:54.599 a day with blanks. Then we'd critique that. If 00:18:54.599 --> 00:18:56.720 we had to practice anything else, we'd do that. 00:18:56.799 --> 00:18:59.680 Then we'd do it at night with blanks. Then we'd 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:01.400 do it during the daytime with live ammunition. 00:19:01.960 --> 00:19:04.140 And then we would do it at night with live ammunition. 00:19:04.819 --> 00:19:06.799 Now, you've got to remember, too, this was 1974, 00:19:07.579 --> 00:19:12.680 1975. So we had one night vision device in each 00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:16.000 platoon. Most of us had no night vision at all. 00:19:16.059 --> 00:19:18.880 There was no flashlights. So if it was dark, 00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:21.799 it was real dark. And you'd have a muzzle flash 00:19:21.799 --> 00:19:24.200 from the weapons, and that was about it. So you 00:19:24.200 --> 00:19:26.000 had to know exactly where you were going to go. 00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:28.640 There were bullets that were coming past you 00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:30.559 because you'd run up between two guys firing, 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:33.940 and you'd hit the ground, do your three -second 00:19:33.940 --> 00:19:35.720 rush, and they'd do their three -second rush, 00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:39.059 and the machine guns would be firing. almost 00:19:39.059 --> 00:19:41.839 directly over your head but they generally wait 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:43.500 till you fell to the ground before they would 00:19:43.500 --> 00:19:46.519 fire and we had mortars and we had 90 millimeters 00:19:46.519 --> 00:19:51.119 all going at the same time so yeah very possible 00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:53.619 to get killed on at least one occasion that i 00:19:53.619 --> 00:19:56.559 can recall we almost did get somebody killed 00:19:56.559 --> 00:20:00.259 but uh trained very hard to make sure that didn't 00:20:00.259 --> 00:20:04.420 happen well that's not that's really an intense 00:20:04.420 --> 00:20:09.470 training i mean that's And plus, you know, I 00:20:09.470 --> 00:20:11.289 know that you're running everywhere you seem 00:20:11.289 --> 00:20:16.029 to go and in the condition that, you know, probably 00:20:16.029 --> 00:20:18.009 the best condition you've ever been in your life. 00:20:19.470 --> 00:20:21.569 Yeah, it was the old days of running in jungle 00:20:21.569 --> 00:20:25.390 boots and t -shirts. Yeah, no sneakers, shorts. 00:20:27.609 --> 00:20:29.730 Mondays were however far the battalion commander 00:20:29.730 --> 00:20:35.250 felt like running and he loved 10 milers. I'm 00:20:35.250 --> 00:20:37.509 glad mine liked shorter distances than that. 00:20:39.650 --> 00:20:44.130 All right. So when you were doing all of these 00:20:44.130 --> 00:20:46.869 exercises, folks, as I said, we're talking with 00:20:46.869 --> 00:20:49.710 Christopher Brewer here. The book is Old Scroll 00:20:49.710 --> 00:20:53.230 Ranger. I can't explain that title there in a 00:20:53.230 --> 00:20:57.890 minute. But he goes into really great detail 00:20:57.890 --> 00:21:01.069 about what these training missions were all about. 00:21:04.009 --> 00:21:09.009 To me, I was exhausted just reading the book 00:21:09.009 --> 00:21:15.410 because not only was he, you know, in the swamps, 00:21:15.529 --> 00:21:18.869 you know, down in Georgia and all that area down 00:21:18.869 --> 00:21:21.470 there, and he's down in Panama where, you know, 00:21:21.509 --> 00:21:25.910 they have major bugs and creatures down there. 00:21:26.470 --> 00:21:29.910 And then he goes to Alaska to do the same thing, 00:21:29.970 --> 00:21:33.579 and he's in, you know, 20, 30 below zero. do 00:21:33.579 --> 00:21:36.000 anything so I mean you guys are we're all over 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:39.700 the world just training for what any possible 00:21:39.700 --> 00:21:43.119 mission that could come up that was the idea 00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:45.259 whatever you could use an infantry battalion 00:21:45.259 --> 00:21:49.019 to do they wanted us to be able to do it wow 00:21:49.019 --> 00:21:53.700 so did you get deployed anywhere after your training 00:21:53.700 --> 00:21:59.809 or would you go off to after that Well, later, 00:22:00.029 --> 00:22:02.329 yes. When I was in the battalion the first three 00:22:02.329 --> 00:22:05.509 years, there were two times that we came very 00:22:05.509 --> 00:22:08.029 close. They were considering us for the Mayaguez 00:22:08.029 --> 00:22:10.990 rescue when they took that ship. The battalion 00:22:10.990 --> 00:22:13.869 commander at the time didn't feel that we hadn't 00:22:13.869 --> 00:22:16.849 done a lot of shipworm, so they sent the Marines 00:22:16.849 --> 00:22:19.730 instead. Later on, he told us he regretted that. 00:22:19.789 --> 00:22:22.710 He thought we had done a better job, but we didn't 00:22:22.710 --> 00:22:25.569 actually deploy. In fact, I don't think the Ranger 00:22:25.569 --> 00:22:28.369 Battalion did any actual combat deployments that 00:22:28.369 --> 00:22:32.230 I'm aware of until Grenada. And that was well 00:22:32.230 --> 00:22:34.910 after I had left. In fact, I was an OCS when 00:22:34.910 --> 00:22:40.490 they went to Grenada. Okay. I need to back you 00:22:40.490 --> 00:22:43.329 up here then a little bit. So in addition to 00:22:43.329 --> 00:22:45.910 all this incredible training that you're going 00:22:45.910 --> 00:22:51.849 through, you kind of make the decision. Somebody 00:22:51.849 --> 00:22:53.900 asked you if you wanted to be a... An officer. 00:22:54.900 --> 00:23:00.420 What made that decision for you? I went to Germany. 00:23:00.740 --> 00:23:03.319 Well, I got out of service for a brief period. 00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:08.019 Came back in after just a few months, and I reenlisted 00:23:08.019 --> 00:23:10.859 for the 509th in Italy. I went over to Italy. 00:23:11.980 --> 00:23:14.420 Great unit. Had some good experiences there. 00:23:14.579 --> 00:23:17.200 Went up to the 1st and 10th Special Forces Group. 00:23:17.420 --> 00:23:19.660 Wasn't qualified, but they had something called 00:23:19.660 --> 00:23:22.549 platoon confidence training. And they were taking 00:23:22.549 --> 00:23:24.230 Rangers who'd come out of the battalion to be 00:23:24.230 --> 00:23:27.369 instructors there. So I got a much closer look 00:23:27.369 --> 00:23:29.670 at what Special Forces really does and really 00:23:29.670 --> 00:23:34.069 got the bug there. And I re -enlisted, made Sergeant 00:23:34.069 --> 00:23:36.450 First Class while I was over there, came back 00:23:36.450 --> 00:23:38.509 to Fort Benning, and I re -enlisted specifically 00:23:38.509 --> 00:23:42.049 to Ranger School at Fort Benning because in my 00:23:42.049 --> 00:23:44.829 mind, I would go back. You always had to be an 00:23:44.829 --> 00:23:47.579 instructor at some point in your career. So I 00:23:47.579 --> 00:23:49.680 was going to be a Ranger instructor for a couple 00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:51.500 of years, and I was going to volunteer for Special 00:23:51.500 --> 00:23:55.940 Forces and go on to SF. Sergeant Major at the 00:23:55.940 --> 00:23:58.799 Ranger department greeted me and said, welcome, 00:23:58.980 --> 00:24:01.680 buy yourself a house. You'll be here for the 00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:04.920 rest of your career. So just go ahead and settle 00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:07.339 in. And I said, no, Sergeant Major, you don't 00:24:07.339 --> 00:24:10.140 understand. I'm going to do my instructor time, 00:24:10.259 --> 00:24:12.099 but then I'm going on to other things. He says, 00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:15.329 no, you're not. You're at Fort Benning now. we're 00:24:15.329 --> 00:24:18.009 critically short of drill instructors you will 00:24:18.009 --> 00:24:20.390 be selected to be a drill instructor since you're 00:24:20.390 --> 00:24:23.950 here it's now a five -year stabilized tour uh 00:24:23.950 --> 00:24:26.450 they won't touch you for about two years so you 00:24:26.450 --> 00:24:28.289 can do your commitment here but then after that 00:24:28.289 --> 00:24:30.630 you'll go on the trail for five that's seven 00:24:30.630 --> 00:24:33.250 years at that time i had about nine years time 00:24:33.250 --> 00:24:36.410 of service so you'll have 16 years time service 00:24:36.410 --> 00:24:39.009 by the time you get off the trail Might as well 00:24:39.009 --> 00:24:41.549 just come on back here for a couple years. If 00:24:41.549 --> 00:24:43.150 we have to, we'll put you in the airborne department 00:24:43.150 --> 00:24:46.390 for a while, and then you'll have your 20. Oh, 00:24:46.549 --> 00:24:51.210 hell no. Who wants to be a drill instructor for 00:24:51.210 --> 00:24:57.230 that long? I, you know, oh, God. I would think 00:24:57.230 --> 00:25:02.190 that's the worst job ever. Nothing against drills. 00:25:02.349 --> 00:25:04.309 No, I'm not against them. I'm just saying it's 00:25:04.309 --> 00:25:08.329 the worst job. Nobody liked it. It's a tough 00:25:08.329 --> 00:25:11.630 job. And, you know, if I'd have had to, I'd have 00:25:11.630 --> 00:25:13.690 gone and been a drill for a couple of years if 00:25:13.690 --> 00:25:18.549 I had to. But five, I wasn't seeing it. So I 00:25:18.549 --> 00:25:21.109 told him, I'm going to go back. I'm going to 00:25:21.109 --> 00:25:22.710 go to SF. And he says, no, you're not. We're 00:25:22.710 --> 00:25:25.849 getting rid of SF. Big Army hated SF and their 00:25:25.849 --> 00:25:29.049 plan was they're going to get rid of it. Why 00:25:29.049 --> 00:25:35.210 didn't they like the Special Forces? big army 00:25:35.210 --> 00:25:38.309 is really never like special forces because you've 00:25:38.309 --> 00:25:40.309 got guys that are out on their own doing their 00:25:40.309 --> 00:25:43.349 own thing they're wearing different uniforms 00:25:43.349 --> 00:25:46.869 or no uniforms that doesn't fit into the the 00:25:46.869 --> 00:25:50.069 army structure command structure the way the 00:25:50.069 --> 00:25:54.990 army sees it okay now now that makes sense because 00:25:54.990 --> 00:25:57.269 the special forces guys i worked with i never 00:25:57.269 --> 00:25:59.390 knew that they were really special for i wasn't 00:25:59.390 --> 00:26:02.210 sure what they were um you know i didn't know 00:26:02.210 --> 00:26:06.420 if they were you know regular army if they had 00:26:06.420 --> 00:26:10.180 you know if they were mercenaries or or or what 00:26:10.180 --> 00:26:12.519 because they never showed up in the same outfit 00:26:12.519 --> 00:26:16.980 it just and that's big army's attitude is what 00:26:16.980 --> 00:26:19.539 what the hell are they doing where are they who 00:26:19.539 --> 00:26:21.380 told them to do that who gave them permission 00:26:21.380 --> 00:26:23.920 and and you'll read about that in the second 00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:26.339 book that well a lot of times no one gives you 00:26:26.339 --> 00:26:30.630 permission you'll be Way far away. And we can 00:26:30.630 --> 00:26:32.549 get into that a little bit later. But the bottom 00:26:32.549 --> 00:26:35.650 line is that once you go out on a special forces 00:26:35.650 --> 00:26:38.529 mission, quite often, especially in the 70s, 00:26:38.529 --> 00:26:42.130 you don't have a way to communicate and get specific 00:26:42.130 --> 00:26:44.250 instructions on what's happening. You just have 00:26:44.250 --> 00:26:47.210 to make a decision on the spot, move forward. 00:26:47.309 --> 00:26:49.329 And then when you get a chance, you communicate 00:26:49.329 --> 00:26:52.309 to the rear what's going on. But the guys that 00:26:52.309 --> 00:26:55.269 are in the field who are making strategic level 00:26:55.269 --> 00:26:57.509 decisions sometimes based on the things that 00:26:57.509 --> 00:27:00.180 they're doing. And that scares people to death. 00:27:00.900 --> 00:27:03.440 So at that time, they were going to get rid of 00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:06.400 SF. So no, you're not going to SF. And I said, 00:27:06.440 --> 00:27:08.200 well, I'll go back to the Ranger Battalion. And 00:27:08.200 --> 00:27:10.720 he laughed at me and says, no, there's a three 00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:12.559 -year waiting list for E -7s trying to get in 00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:13.960 the Ranger Battalion. You're not going there. 00:27:14.039 --> 00:27:16.180 You're going to be a drill sergeant. The only 00:27:16.180 --> 00:27:20.839 thing that took priority was OCS. So I did the 00:27:20.839 --> 00:27:23.140 ultimate act of betrayal to the NCO Corps, and 00:27:23.140 --> 00:27:26.400 I volunteered to be a second lieutenant. Thank 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:29.809 you. Must have taken years for them to start 00:27:29.809 --> 00:27:33.269 talking to you again. It's kind of like going 00:27:33.269 --> 00:27:39.029 over to the dark side. Yeah, very much so. Because, 00:27:39.049 --> 00:27:41.190 you know, I mean, we all realize that the military 00:27:41.190 --> 00:27:44.230 and the armies, you know, especially, it's kind 00:27:44.230 --> 00:27:51.329 of run by the NCOs. And that must have been really 00:27:51.329 --> 00:27:54.190 difficult just for you to go when you were older. 00:27:55.049 --> 00:27:57.650 and to go into regular ocs school now you got 00:27:57.650 --> 00:28:01.650 to start go running around and having ncos yell 00:28:01.650 --> 00:28:06.150 at you for the for you know the duration no i 00:28:06.150 --> 00:28:09.349 was lucky when i came out and yeah i did have 00:28:09.349 --> 00:28:12.089 but when i i got up a tune in the 82nd airborne 00:28:12.089 --> 00:28:15.710 division which is unusual but i had a good record 00:28:15.710 --> 00:28:20.309 so i got up there had a first sergeant uh for 00:28:20.309 --> 00:28:24.569 sergeant thomas charro who Love to yank the chain 00:28:24.569 --> 00:28:26.690 on new second lieutenants. And he came down to 00:28:26.690 --> 00:28:29.970 yank mine and basically told me, you better understand, 00:28:30.130 --> 00:28:32.589 young lieutenant, I don't like lieutenants. I 00:28:32.589 --> 00:28:34.210 just looked up at him and said, you know, first 00:28:34.210 --> 00:28:36.849 sergeant, I don't like him much either. We ought 00:28:36.849 --> 00:28:40.069 to get along just fine. But he was a great first 00:28:40.069 --> 00:28:43.349 sergeant. We rubbed up against one another once 00:28:43.349 --> 00:28:45.829 in a while, but we worked a good working relationship. 00:28:46.069 --> 00:28:50.589 I had a good platoon sergeant. From there. At 00:28:50.589 --> 00:28:53.250 that time, if you were going to stay an officer 00:28:53.250 --> 00:28:55.190 in the Army, you had to have a four -year degree. 00:28:56.109 --> 00:28:58.529 And I had two years, but not four, so I had to 00:28:58.529 --> 00:29:01.809 go to a degree of completion. And then I finally 00:29:01.809 --> 00:29:06.349 had the chance to volunteer for SF. Okay, so 00:29:06.349 --> 00:29:09.950 now we're going to get into SF. That's interesting, 00:29:10.069 --> 00:29:14.509 and you talked about that in the book, that the 00:29:14.509 --> 00:29:18.150 Army sent you back to school, in essence, for 00:29:18.150 --> 00:29:22.180 two years. Where did you go? Campbell University 00:29:22.180 --> 00:29:27.440 in North Carolina, which was an interesting experience. 00:29:27.619 --> 00:29:30.220 It's a good university. It's a Baptist university. 00:29:31.740 --> 00:29:36.339 They wanted me to sign a statement that I would 00:29:36.339 --> 00:29:39.700 not enter any establishment that served alcohol 00:29:39.700 --> 00:29:42.380 or drink alcoholic beverages as long as I was 00:29:42.380 --> 00:29:45.839 a student. And I explained to the nice lady who 00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:47.759 wanted me to sign the statement that, ma 'am. 00:29:48.849 --> 00:29:52.690 I'm 32 years old. I'm a newly divorced U .S. 00:29:52.710 --> 00:29:55.829 Army officers. And nobody said I had to become 00:29:55.829 --> 00:29:58.789 a Baptist to go to this school. And frankly, 00:29:59.009 --> 00:30:01.930 I'm feeling like having a beer right now. And 00:30:01.930 --> 00:30:04.049 that earned me a trip to the dean's office where 00:30:04.049 --> 00:30:07.430 we had to discuss that. But they all agreed that 00:30:07.430 --> 00:30:10.230 probably be better if I didn't live in the dormitory. 00:30:10.369 --> 00:30:13.230 So I was allowed to get my own place off campus 00:30:13.230 --> 00:30:15.230 and I stayed out there and we got along fine. 00:30:18.250 --> 00:30:23.329 I can see you sitting in the freshman dorm or 00:30:23.329 --> 00:30:26.569 something like that with the 18 -year -olds. 00:30:27.009 --> 00:30:31.069 So did you do school full -time until you got 00:30:31.069 --> 00:30:35.089 your degree? Yeah, the Army gives you 18 months 00:30:35.089 --> 00:30:37.410 to complete two years worth of college. So you 00:30:37.410 --> 00:30:40.450 take overloads and there's no time off. You get 00:30:40.450 --> 00:30:44.589 it all done and get out. Okay. All right. So 00:30:44.589 --> 00:30:47.599 let's talk about... And again, I'm talking with 00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:49.680 Chris Brewer here. He's written a couple of books 00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:51.500 that are really interesting for those of you 00:30:51.500 --> 00:30:54.339 like Rangers and Special Forces and so forth. 00:30:54.359 --> 00:30:56.559 One's called The Old Skrull Ranger. And let me 00:30:56.559 --> 00:30:59.940 go through that one first of all. It's Old Skrull 00:30:59.940 --> 00:31:04.819 Ranger. And I thought, mistakenly thinking, and 00:31:04.819 --> 00:31:06.720 I said, my goodness, what does he have a typo 00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:09.579 on a cover title of his book? Could you explain 00:31:09.579 --> 00:31:13.259 the word Skrull here and why it was important 00:31:13.259 --> 00:31:18.400 for you? Sure. When we first formed up, the battalion 00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:20.299 commander and sergeant major designed their own 00:31:20.299 --> 00:31:23.819 shoulder patch. And they designed a scroll that 00:31:23.819 --> 00:31:29.680 said airborne ranger and then 75th infantry down 00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:32.339 on the sides. And you see that on the cover. 00:31:32.599 --> 00:31:35.779 Right. I'm looking at it right now. Yes. When 00:31:35.779 --> 00:31:38.460 second battalion was activated a few months after 00:31:38.460 --> 00:31:42.019 first, they didn't like the design that the first 00:31:42.019 --> 00:31:43.700 battalion had come up with. So they designed 00:31:43.700 --> 00:31:46.579 their own. Also a scroll. but a little bit different. 00:31:47.319 --> 00:31:50.500 And then the Institute of Heraldry came down 00:31:50.500 --> 00:31:52.839 and said that, well, that's all well and good, 00:31:52.920 --> 00:31:56.579 but whatever you're going to wear has to be something 00:31:56.579 --> 00:31:59.380 we approve. And they sent down a patch that was 00:31:59.380 --> 00:32:01.480 similar to the old Merrill's Marauder patch, 00:32:01.660 --> 00:32:05.599 but nobody really liked that very much. So they 00:32:05.599 --> 00:32:07.680 went back and forth, and after a period of time, 00:32:07.740 --> 00:32:10.779 they finally settled on the scroll that the World 00:32:10.779 --> 00:32:13.799 War II Rangers wore, which simply says Ranger. 00:32:14.410 --> 00:32:17.549 And it's got the regiment on the side in 75th 00:32:17.549 --> 00:32:20.029 Infantry. And that's what the guys wear now. 00:32:20.230 --> 00:32:22.589 So what you see on the book is the old scroll. 00:32:23.150 --> 00:32:27.869 Right. Okay. Yeah, that's cool. I mean, I like 00:32:27.869 --> 00:32:32.690 the old scroll. Really nice. 1st Battalion, 75th 00:32:32.690 --> 00:32:38.750 Infantry. On that one. All right. So let's move 00:32:38.750 --> 00:32:40.990 on to get you into the Special Forces. What is 00:32:40.990 --> 00:32:44.349 the difference? Basically, the difference between 00:32:44.349 --> 00:32:49.349 being a ranger and being special forces. Rangers 00:32:49.349 --> 00:32:53.650 are light infantry. Very well -trained, well 00:32:53.650 --> 00:32:56.890 -equipped light infantry. Have very specific 00:32:56.890 --> 00:32:59.869 missions. But you've got privates all the way 00:32:59.869 --> 00:33:02.269 up through sergeants, majors, colonels within 00:33:02.269 --> 00:33:04.789 that battalion. And they operate as an infantry 00:33:04.789 --> 00:33:07.349 unit, whether it's squad, platoon, company, or 00:33:07.349 --> 00:33:10.269 full battalion. One of the primary missions for 00:33:10.269 --> 00:33:14.690 a ranger unit is airfield seizure. If you absolutely, 00:33:14.910 --> 00:33:17.910 positively have to put troops on the ground 1 00:33:17.910 --> 00:33:20.809 ,500 miles away beyond the range that helicopters 00:33:20.809 --> 00:33:22.869 can reach, and you've got to do it right now, 00:33:23.029 --> 00:33:26.390 you need to seize an airport. So you send a ranger 00:33:26.390 --> 00:33:28.390 battalion, they jump in on the airport, they 00:33:28.390 --> 00:33:30.329 seize the airport, and you start flooding an 00:33:30.329 --> 00:33:33.069 aircraft. That's one of the primary missions 00:33:33.069 --> 00:33:35.470 a ranger bat does. They did very well in Grenada. 00:33:35.710 --> 00:33:38.890 They did it again in Panama. They still practice 00:33:38.890 --> 00:33:40.690 that to this very day. And, of course, they do 00:33:40.690 --> 00:33:43.230 a lot of other things, but as organized units. 00:33:44.390 --> 00:33:48.069 Special Forces has a 12 -man A -team. They've 00:33:48.069 --> 00:33:51.009 got a commission officer, a warrant officer, 00:33:51.130 --> 00:33:54.299 a team sergeant, an intel sergeant. two weapons 00:33:54.299 --> 00:33:57.279 sergeants, two engineer explosive sergeants, 00:33:57.299 --> 00:34:02.460 two medical sergeants, a total of 12 guys. And 00:34:02.460 --> 00:34:06.460 they will go well beyond where anybody else, 00:34:06.539 --> 00:34:10.360 they may be operating 1 ,500 miles away by themselves. 00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:13.639 If something goes wrong where they are, they're 00:34:13.639 --> 00:34:15.179 certainly not going to shoot their way out of 00:34:15.179 --> 00:34:17.260 it. So they're going to have to work with the 00:34:17.260 --> 00:34:19.730 people that are there where they're going. And 00:34:19.730 --> 00:34:22.829 that's the real nexus of what special forces 00:34:22.829 --> 00:34:25.469 is all about. They're going to go link up with 00:34:25.469 --> 00:34:29.150 a unit or a group of people in a foreign country. 00:34:29.610 --> 00:34:31.849 You're either going to help them form their own 00:34:31.849 --> 00:34:34.030 military or you're going to help them train to 00:34:34.030 --> 00:34:37.489 do better at what they do or find out what's 00:34:37.489 --> 00:34:40.550 going on. So special forces can do reconnaissance. 00:34:41.550 --> 00:34:44.389 They can do a direct action if it's something 00:34:44.389 --> 00:34:47.639 that a... 12 -man team could attack and destroy 00:34:47.639 --> 00:34:50.260 with only 12 guys, where you're going to go in, 00:34:50.300 --> 00:34:53.300 do it, and get back out. But really, their primary 00:34:53.300 --> 00:34:56.280 focus is we're going to work with foreign military 00:34:56.280 --> 00:34:59.519 or foreign people to help them organize and fight 00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:01.820 on their own. And that's the primary difference 00:35:01.820 --> 00:35:07.260 between Rangers and Special Forces. Okay. Got 00:35:07.260 --> 00:35:12.320 it. It is, I mean, Special Forces seems to go 00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:16.039 in and It doesn't want people to necessarily 00:35:16.039 --> 00:35:19.980 know that they're there. Sometimes, and sometimes 00:35:19.980 --> 00:35:24.679 it's very public. And you'll see in the second 00:35:24.679 --> 00:35:28.099 book, I tried to put in examples of each of the 00:35:28.099 --> 00:35:30.960 different types of missions we did at that time. 00:35:31.059 --> 00:35:33.199 In those days, we had five doctrinal missions. 00:35:33.579 --> 00:35:35.940 Now I think they are up to something like nine. 00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:39.519 But direct action, think about a squad going 00:35:39.519 --> 00:35:44.289 and attacking. a radar set or something and blowing 00:35:44.289 --> 00:35:47.469 it up. But that's that one specific thing that's 00:35:47.469 --> 00:35:49.489 got to be destroyed or captured and brought back. 00:35:49.889 --> 00:35:52.190 And they're going to sneak in, do it, and they're 00:35:52.190 --> 00:35:55.409 going to get right back out again. Special reconnaissance, 00:35:55.690 --> 00:35:58.909 100 miles behind the enemy lines, they're going 00:35:58.909 --> 00:36:02.030 to hide, watch, report, and if necessary, they'll 00:36:02.030 --> 00:36:05.449 walk back out and escape and evade. A little 00:36:05.449 --> 00:36:07.110 bit more than what you would expect of Ranger 00:36:07.110 --> 00:36:12.130 privates. And then... Unconventional warfare 00:36:12.130 --> 00:36:17.469 is training a company or a battalion of people 00:36:17.469 --> 00:36:19.909 in a foreign country to organize into a military 00:36:19.909 --> 00:36:23.050 unit and fight themselves in their own war. But 00:36:23.050 --> 00:36:25.690 you're training them, advising them, working 00:36:25.690 --> 00:36:28.969 with them. Very similar to what you saw the guys 00:36:28.969 --> 00:36:31.389 do when we went into Afghanistan and they linked 00:36:31.389 --> 00:36:34.829 up with the Northern Alliance. FID is Foreign 00:36:34.829 --> 00:36:37.170 Internal Defense. We did a lot of that in seventh 00:36:37.170 --> 00:36:39.719 group where we'd go down and... work with their 00:36:39.719 --> 00:36:42.219 military directly. There's a FID -type mission 00:36:42.219 --> 00:36:44.900 in the book where we help set up a medical corpsman 00:36:44.900 --> 00:36:48.139 school. We taught the first few classes, and 00:36:48.139 --> 00:36:49.519 then we taught them how to be an instructor, 00:36:49.780 --> 00:36:55.179 and then we set up a school for them. You mentioned 00:36:55.179 --> 00:36:57.219 earlier, before we went on the air, we were talking 00:36:57.219 --> 00:37:01.460 about how many countries that Special Forces 00:37:01.460 --> 00:37:03.699 have been in, and I don't know if they're there 00:37:03.699 --> 00:37:05.440 now because we're not going to give away any 00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:10.210 secrets here, but how many Countries have special 00:37:10.210 --> 00:37:13.969 forces been in in the last 10 years, would you 00:37:13.969 --> 00:37:18.550 say? Well, I'll tell you that when I was an officer 00:37:18.550 --> 00:37:21.510 in special forces in the 80s and 90s, on our 00:37:21.510 --> 00:37:23.670 briefing slides, we would routinely say that 00:37:23.670 --> 00:37:27.269 we were involved in about 132 to 136 countries 00:37:27.269 --> 00:37:31.030 at any given time. And it may not be a full 12 00:37:31.030 --> 00:37:34.010 -man team. It may be one guy that you sent out 00:37:34.010 --> 00:37:36.789 there. It might be two or three. And that's the 00:37:36.789 --> 00:37:38.829 other thing that's... different about special 00:37:38.829 --> 00:37:42.170 forces and one reason is why a conventional army 00:37:42.170 --> 00:37:45.010 really doesn't like it because with that 12 man 00:37:45.010 --> 00:37:48.210 what the army looks at as a squad you've got 00:37:48.210 --> 00:37:51.889 a captain a master sergeant usually three or 00:37:51.889 --> 00:37:54.869 four sergeant first classes and then e6s and 00:37:54.869 --> 00:37:58.369 usually the lowest ranking man's in e5 and they 00:37:58.369 --> 00:38:01.409 see that as a waste of leadership but the idea 00:38:01.409 --> 00:38:05.550 is that's going to help create and train and 00:38:05.550 --> 00:38:08.119 advise a battalion And that's why you have the 00:38:08.119 --> 00:38:10.820 senior personnel. Right. And you mentioned in 00:38:10.820 --> 00:38:13.559 your second book is called In the Shadows Between 00:38:13.559 --> 00:38:18.320 the Wars. And in here, you mentioned quite a 00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:24.300 few Special Forces operations. And they're all 00:38:24.300 --> 00:38:31.929 really interesting. I see movies here in my head, 00:38:32.050 --> 00:38:34.989 you know, going around and around. But you, not 00:38:34.989 --> 00:38:37.590 only were you in, you know, Grenada and you were 00:38:37.590 --> 00:38:41.730 in Panama, but you also were in Colombia. Yeah, 00:38:41.750 --> 00:38:43.949 I was not in Grenada. I missed that when I was 00:38:43.949 --> 00:38:48.210 in OCS. That's right, yes. We were in Colombia. 00:38:51.190 --> 00:38:54.570 Basically, I'd been on a job down in Costa Rica, 00:38:54.670 --> 00:38:56.449 came back home, and I was sitting down having 00:38:56.449 --> 00:39:00.559 a beer, watching TV. And I saw where the presidential 00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:03.159 candidate for Columbia, a man by the name of 00:39:03.159 --> 00:39:06.800 Galan, was assassinated by the narcos right on 00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:09.320 TV in the middle of a speech in front of a crowd. 00:39:09.920 --> 00:39:11.940 And I thought to myself, man, somebody's going 00:39:11.940 --> 00:39:15.300 to get a phone call. And I swear, the phone rang 00:39:15.300 --> 00:39:18.000 at that moment. We were told to come in the next 00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:21.380 day. And the mission was to go to Columbia and 00:39:21.380 --> 00:39:24.599 set up a medical corpsman school. The Colombians 00:39:24.599 --> 00:39:27.909 at that time didn't have any field medics. So 00:39:27.909 --> 00:39:29.849 if they went on a patrol in the jungle and they 00:39:29.849 --> 00:39:33.010 got wounded, most times the guys would die because 00:39:33.010 --> 00:39:35.409 there was no one there to provide any type of 00:39:35.409 --> 00:39:37.070 emergency medical treatment. They'd have to walk 00:39:37.070 --> 00:39:42.329 back out. So President George Herbert Bush had 00:39:42.329 --> 00:39:44.550 stated that he was going to support Columbia 00:39:44.550 --> 00:39:47.909 against the narcos because a little drug war 00:39:47.909 --> 00:39:49.969 was starting to evolve, that we would not send 00:39:49.969 --> 00:39:53.110 combat troops, but we'd provide whatever logistical 00:39:53.110 --> 00:39:57.579 support they needed. When they sent the request 00:39:57.579 --> 00:39:59.500 up for the medical school, it was going to be 00:39:59.500 --> 00:40:03.000 in Bogota. And Bogota at that time was having 00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:07.099 firefights or bombings every day, especially 00:40:07.099 --> 00:40:10.380 down in the south part of the city. So they couldn't 00:40:10.380 --> 00:40:12.820 really send the normal medical teams that they 00:40:12.820 --> 00:40:16.159 would provide to do that. So it came to special 00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:19.659 forces. But it had to be six medics. You've only 00:40:19.659 --> 00:40:22.179 got two medics on an A team. So that would have 00:40:22.179 --> 00:40:24.760 taken the medics from three A teams. And nobody 00:40:24.760 --> 00:40:29.760 wanted to do that. but I'd been a medic as a 00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:33.599 private. I had two fully qualified medics on 00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:36.400 my team. My intel sergeant had been a medic. 00:40:36.900 --> 00:40:39.320 My team sergeant could set up the train, the 00:40:39.320 --> 00:40:41.860 trainer to learn how to be an instructor. And 00:40:41.860 --> 00:40:43.739 we'd take along our commo guy and we'd let him 00:40:43.739 --> 00:40:45.880 do the basic first aid and we'd supervise him. 00:40:46.340 --> 00:40:49.960 And we all spoke Spanish. I had a two plus, two 00:40:49.960 --> 00:40:54.500 plus level. So we got the job. But since... No 00:40:54.500 --> 00:40:56.760 combat troops were going to go, according to 00:40:56.760 --> 00:41:00.300 the president. We were transferred on orders 00:41:00.300 --> 00:41:02.900 from Special Forces to the Security Assistance 00:41:02.900 --> 00:41:06.280 Training Management Office, SATMO, which put 00:41:06.280 --> 00:41:09.019 us in the same basket of people as all the doctors 00:41:09.019 --> 00:41:11.519 and nurses that would normally go. And then we 00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:14.219 flew down in civilian clothes with our uniforms 00:41:14.219 --> 00:41:16.900 and radios and whatever else we wanted for survival 00:41:16.900 --> 00:41:19.480 tucked away in our civilian luggage. And they 00:41:19.480 --> 00:41:21.820 gave us a pistol when we got there for self -defense. 00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:25.039 And took us down to South Bogota where all the 00:41:25.039 --> 00:41:27.920 shooting was going on. Dropped us off and said, 00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:31.260 good luck, guys. Let us know once a month that 00:41:31.260 --> 00:41:33.900 you're still alive. And this is the only ride 00:41:33.900 --> 00:41:35.980 we can give you from here on out. You're on your 00:41:35.980 --> 00:41:41.760 own. And we went to work. Wow. And you did your 00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:44.239 job well. And you mentioned earlier on in our 00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:47.420 conversation that this was way before cell phones. 00:41:49.470 --> 00:41:55.829 communication was spotty at best we had a 74 00:41:55.829 --> 00:41:59.090 bravo high frequency radio that we put in our 00:41:59.090 --> 00:42:03.929 civilian luggage and uh part of the idea of doing 00:42:03.929 --> 00:42:07.210 the satmo thing was that we knew that the narcos 00:42:07.210 --> 00:42:09.110 had people in a lot of the government offices 00:42:09.110 --> 00:42:11.949 so if we went down as green beret special forces 00:42:11.949 --> 00:42:16.170 that would be seen on the air air manifest so 00:42:16.170 --> 00:42:19.429 we went down as medical personnel working for 00:42:19.429 --> 00:42:23.050 satmo so that helped it wasn't a cover story 00:42:23.050 --> 00:42:26.050 per se but that helped conceal the fact that 00:42:26.050 --> 00:42:28.849 we were special forces coming in from the bad 00:42:28.849 --> 00:42:32.610 guys because there was a reward of i think it 00:42:32.610 --> 00:42:36.070 was like twenty thousand dollars dead fifty thousand 00:42:36.070 --> 00:42:39.329 dollars alive if anyone would uh turn over a 00:42:39.329 --> 00:42:42.289 green beret to the narcos because they were watching 00:42:42.289 --> 00:42:46.309 for us at that time but that got us in and that 00:42:46.309 --> 00:42:49.559 got us set up And then once we were there, over 00:42:49.559 --> 00:42:51.340 the six months we were there, the Mill Group 00:42:51.340 --> 00:42:55.440 decided to use us for other things. I know you 00:42:55.440 --> 00:42:58.840 were sent out all over the, seems like all over 00:42:58.840 --> 00:43:02.940 the country side in the book. I've been talking 00:43:02.940 --> 00:43:04.400 here with Christopher Brewer. We're going to 00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:07.820 have to wrap this up. But this is in the shadows 00:43:07.820 --> 00:43:11.639 between the wars and jumped out of perfectly 00:43:11.639 --> 00:43:21.139 good airplanes. Did you do any Halo jumps? I 00:43:21.139 --> 00:43:26.199 wasn't military Halo qualified, but in the 509th, 00:43:26.199 --> 00:43:28.800 we did some free fall for demonstrations and 00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:31.579 competitions. So I put a chapter in there that 00:43:31.579 --> 00:43:33.840 talks about what that's like, just so everybody 00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:36.400 could kind of get a feel for that. I tried to 00:43:36.400 --> 00:43:38.900 put a little bit in the book that'll let you 00:43:38.900 --> 00:43:40.599 know a little bit about everything that Special 00:43:40.599 --> 00:43:44.679 Forces does, at least at that time. I think it's 00:43:44.679 --> 00:43:47.579 important for our audience to understand that, 00:43:47.619 --> 00:43:49.480 you know, with all the different branches of 00:43:49.480 --> 00:43:51.820 the service and all of the different things that 00:43:51.820 --> 00:43:56.019 these branches do, that these two books, at least 00:43:56.019 --> 00:43:57.440 these two, when you said there's another one 00:43:57.440 --> 00:44:00.500 coming out after you, you know, became a civilian 00:44:00.500 --> 00:44:03.940 contractor, that I would encourage them to get. 00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:06.880 The one is called Old Scroll Ranger. The other 00:44:06.880 --> 00:44:09.039 one is called In the Shadows Between the Wars 00:44:09.039 --> 00:44:14.090 by Christopher Brewer, who retired. Major, correct? 00:44:14.690 --> 00:44:17.269 Correct. From the United States. How many years 00:44:17.269 --> 00:44:20.489 did you spend in the service? 24 years. Okay. 00:44:20.550 --> 00:44:22.409 This guy knows what he's talking about, folks. 00:44:22.690 --> 00:44:25.489 And the books show that. And I encourage you 00:44:25.489 --> 00:44:28.110 to go. You can get them on Amazon. Probably get 00:44:28.110 --> 00:44:31.710 them most anywhere. That's where I got them. 00:44:31.750 --> 00:44:35.960 And they came in the next day. That was kind 00:44:35.960 --> 00:44:38.199 of cool. So, Chris, I want to thank you so very 00:44:38.199 --> 00:44:41.159 much for being on Veterans Radio. Let me know 00:44:41.159 --> 00:44:42.719 when the next one comes out. I'd like to find 00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:45.480 out more about that during the next adventure. 00:44:46.360 --> 00:44:49.739 Okay. And the second one will be coming out in 00:44:49.739 --> 00:44:52.460 an audio book here soon. They're going through 00:44:52.460 --> 00:44:54.659 the final editing on that now that people are 00:44:54.659 --> 00:44:58.179 too busy to read. Okay. Now we want them to read. 00:44:58.320 --> 00:45:01.119 Audio books are good. I'll tell you, it's... 00:45:01.320 --> 00:45:03.199 Both of them are great stories. The second one 00:45:03.199 --> 00:45:06.739 is more frightening than the first one. But anyway, 00:45:06.840 --> 00:45:08.760 thank you very much, Chris, for being on Veterans 00:45:08.760 --> 00:45:10.940 Radio. Look forward to talking to you sometime 00:45:10.940 --> 00:45:13.619 in the future. Thank you for having me. I appreciate 00:45:13.619 --> 00:45:15.920 it. Okay. We're going to take a real quick break. 00:45:15.960 --> 00:45:17.860 And when we come back, we're going to go right 00:45:17.860 --> 00:45:22.460 to Jim Fausone's interview with the MVBDC person, 00:45:22.659 --> 00:45:24.519 Bill Elmore. But right now you're going to be 00:45:24.519 --> 00:45:26.699 listening to our Medal of Honor. So you're listening 00:45:26.699 --> 00:45:28.980 to Veterans Radio. I'll be back after Jim's interview. 00:45:30.639 --> 00:45:32.900 The Medal of Honor is the highest award for valor 00:45:32.900 --> 00:45:35.079 in combat given a member of the Armed Forces 00:45:35.079 --> 00:45:37.300 of the United States. There have been over 3 00:45:37.300 --> 00:45:40.300 ,400 recipients of the nation's highest award. 00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:43.780 This is one of them. Sergeant First Class Paul 00:45:43.780 --> 00:45:47.559 Smith gave his life to protect his troops. Details 00:45:47.559 --> 00:45:52.059 after this. If you have a VA claim denied by 00:45:52.059 --> 00:45:54.079 the Board of Veterans Appeals, contact Legal 00:45:54.079 --> 00:45:58.690 Help for Veterans at 1 -800 -693 -4800. They're 00:45:58.690 --> 00:46:00.829 experts in handling cases before the U .S. Court 00:46:00.829 --> 00:46:02.889 of Appeals for veterans' claims. Their number 00:46:02.889 --> 00:46:08.630 again, 1 -800 -693 -4800. On April 4, 2003, a 00:46:08.630 --> 00:46:10.909 call went out for a place to put some Iraqi prisoners. 00:46:11.590 --> 00:46:14.489 Sergeant First Class Paul Smith volunteered to 00:46:14.489 --> 00:46:17.250 create a holding pen inside a walled courtyard. 00:46:17.829 --> 00:46:21.010 Soon, Iraqi soldiers, numbering perhaps 100, 00:46:21.409 --> 00:46:24.989 opened fire on Smith's position. Smith was accompanied 00:46:24.989 --> 00:46:28.670 by 16 men. Smith called for a Bradley, a tank 00:46:28.670 --> 00:46:31.590 -like vehicle with a rapid -fire cannon. It arrived 00:46:31.590 --> 00:46:34.530 and opened up on the Iraqis. The enemy could 00:46:34.530 --> 00:46:36.789 not advance so long as the Bradley was in position. 00:46:37.070 --> 00:46:39.809 But then, in a move that baffled and angered 00:46:39.809 --> 00:46:43.829 Smith's men, the Bradley left. Smith's men, some 00:46:43.829 --> 00:46:45.750 of whom were wounded, were suddenly vulnerable. 00:46:46.429 --> 00:46:48.829 Smith could have justifiably ordered his men 00:46:48.829 --> 00:46:51.829 to withdraw. Smith rejected that option, thinking 00:46:51.829 --> 00:46:54.090 that abandoning the courtyard would jeopardize 00:46:54.090 --> 00:46:57.170 about 100 GIs outside, including medics at an 00:46:57.170 --> 00:47:00.150 aid station. He manned a .50 caliber machine 00:47:00.150 --> 00:47:02.429 gun atop an abandoned armored personnel carrier 00:47:02.429 --> 00:47:05.389 and fought off the Iraqis going through several 00:47:05.389 --> 00:47:08.469 boxes of ammunition. As the battle wound down, 00:47:08.630 --> 00:47:11.849 Smith was hit in the head. He died before he 00:47:11.849 --> 00:47:13.989 could be evacuated from the scene. The Medal 00:47:13.989 --> 00:47:16.170 of Honor series is a production of Veterans Radio. 00:47:17.400 --> 00:47:20.179 Military veterans touch everyone's life. I'm 00:47:20.179 --> 00:47:21.980 guessing right now you're thinking of a veteran, 00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:26.360 a close friend, relative. Maybe it's you. Even 00:47:26.360 --> 00:47:29.239 the toughest of us sometimes need help but don't 00:47:29.239 --> 00:47:31.460 know where to turn for support. You don't need 00:47:31.460 --> 00:47:33.219 special training to help a veteran in your life. 00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:35.460 We can all help someone going through a difficult 00:47:35.460 --> 00:47:38.239 time. Learn how you can be there for veterans. 00:47:38.440 --> 00:47:42.440 Visit VeteransCrisisLine .net. VeteransCrisisLine 00:47:42.440 --> 00:47:45.159 .net. A message from the U .S. Department of 00:47:45.159 --> 00:47:56.570 Veterans Affairs. Welcome. I am Jim Fossone, 00:47:56.630 --> 00:47:59.809 and this is Veterans Radio's spotlight on National 00:47:59.809 --> 00:48:02.110 Veteran Business Development Council, better 00:48:02.110 --> 00:48:08.409 known as NVBDC .org. Veterans Radio has a partnership 00:48:08.409 --> 00:48:12.150 with NVBDC. It is the nation's leading third 00:48:12.150 --> 00:48:14.269 -party authority for certification of veteran 00:48:14.269 --> 00:48:18.389 -owned businesses of all size. It's a 501c3 nonprofit 00:48:18.389 --> 00:48:23.420 established in 2013, so now a decade of... certifying 00:48:23.420 --> 00:48:27.179 veteran -owned businesses to assist commercial 00:48:27.179 --> 00:48:31.820 and government buyers to make sure that they're 00:48:31.820 --> 00:48:34.340 actually working with legitimate veteran -owned 00:48:34.340 --> 00:48:36.619 businesses. It's a rigorous certification process 00:48:36.619 --> 00:48:39.340 designed to withstand the scrutiny of governmental 00:48:39.340 --> 00:48:42.719 and corporate entities. seeking to utilize certified 00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:46.119 VOBs. And we're really pleased to have today 00:48:46.119 --> 00:48:49.280 on Veterans Radio Bill Elmore. I'm going to give 00:48:49.280 --> 00:48:51.679 you more about Bill in a minute, but Bill, welcome 00:48:51.679 --> 00:48:55.260 to Veterans Radio. Well, thank you, Jim. I appreciate 00:48:55.260 --> 00:48:59.079 the opportunity. So Bill is sort of the godfather 00:48:59.079 --> 00:49:03.260 of veteran -owned businesses, and he has been 00:49:03.260 --> 00:49:06.679 supporting veteran -owned businesses. for his 00:49:06.679 --> 00:49:09.019 entire professional career but let me back up 00:49:09.019 --> 00:49:11.739 a little bit to put some context around that 00:49:11.739 --> 00:49:16.860 it starts as a simple kid who joins the united 00:49:16.860 --> 00:49:19.960 states air force and spends a little time in 00:49:19.960 --> 00:49:26.099 texas illinois oklahoma you go on after a discharge 00:49:26.099 --> 00:49:30.539 to work at a couple of veteran -centric places 00:49:30.539 --> 00:49:38.420 including the va national record personnel records 00:49:38.420 --> 00:49:42.380 center in st louis so many of us know that from 00:49:42.380 --> 00:49:45.079 the so -called great fire destroying records 00:49:45.079 --> 00:49:51.000 you went on into further work to as the executive 00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:53.880 director for the st louis area veteran service 00:49:53.880 --> 00:49:57.500 centers you took some of that experience and 00:49:57.500 --> 00:49:59.360 said hey i'm going to help people retrieve their 00:49:59.360 --> 00:50:04.579 records from nprc and then found your way into 00:50:04.579 --> 00:50:08.400 the u .s small business association or administration 00:50:08.400 --> 00:50:12.519 i should say sba and that's kind of where this 00:50:12.519 --> 00:50:17.190 story really starts Ultimately, I ended up creating 00:50:17.190 --> 00:50:20.550 back in the 1980s what was called the Veterans 00:50:20.550 --> 00:50:23.090 Entrepreneurship Training Program here in St. 00:50:23.269 --> 00:50:26.889 Louis. And in two -plus years, we trained almost 00:50:26.889 --> 00:50:31.730 200 veterans and their spouses and their survivors, 00:50:31.849 --> 00:50:35.369 if they were widows, in entrepreneurship. And 00:50:35.369 --> 00:50:39.090 the program was incredibly successful. And the 00:50:39.090 --> 00:50:43.000 other thing it did for me... was it exposed me 00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:47.599 to a whole community of already successful, mostly 00:50:47.599 --> 00:50:51.239 Vietnam veterans, that were in the business world 00:50:51.239 --> 00:50:55.179 in St. Louis, who in those days knew each other 00:50:55.179 --> 00:50:58.960 professionally, but none of them knew each other 00:50:58.960 --> 00:51:02.820 as veterans. Let me jump in here, because this 00:51:02.820 --> 00:51:06.019 is, veteran radio listeners, this is the start 00:51:06.019 --> 00:51:12.150 of what we see now. 45 years later, where there 00:51:12.150 --> 00:51:15.230 are entrepreneurial boot camps and universities 00:51:15.230 --> 00:51:18.769 have specific programs to help veterans get into 00:51:18.769 --> 00:51:21.530 business, and government programs exist at the 00:51:21.530 --> 00:51:24.590 state, local, and federal levels. But in the 00:51:24.590 --> 00:51:27.329 80s, in the late 70s and early 80s, none of this 00:51:27.329 --> 00:51:31.369 existed, and even the concept of what a certified 00:51:31.369 --> 00:51:33.750 veteran -owned business didn't really exist, 00:51:33.809 --> 00:51:38.449 did it, Bill Gilmore? No, it did not exist, and 00:51:38.449 --> 00:51:42.500 I'll give you, Just to touch a history, the original 00:51:42.500 --> 00:51:47.119 1944 GI Bill included small business lending 00:51:47.119 --> 00:51:54.480 for veterans. In December 1974, Congress deauthorized 00:51:54.480 --> 00:51:57.980 small business lending to veterans in the GI 00:51:57.980 --> 00:52:02.019 Bill. So for 30 years, we had a lot of help coming 00:52:02.019 --> 00:52:04.500 out of the federal sector for veteran entrepreneurs 00:52:04.500 --> 00:52:08.860 in 74 when our generation came home. and was 00:52:08.860 --> 00:52:12.400 coming home still, virtually all the assistance 00:52:12.400 --> 00:52:15.280 that had been delivered to previous generations 00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:20.519 of veterans disappeared. We are talking to Bill 00:52:20.519 --> 00:52:23.340 Elmore. He was the founding associate administrator 00:52:23.340 --> 00:52:26.500 for the Veterans Business Development at the 00:52:26.500 --> 00:52:29.760 SBA and the creator of the SBA Office of Veterans 00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:43.000 Business Development, Now, NVBDC, talking about 00:52:43.000 --> 00:52:47.159 how much this has grown, recently put out a report 00:52:47.159 --> 00:52:50.320 talking about the Billion Dollar Roundtable and 00:52:50.320 --> 00:52:55.260 looking at veteran -owned, NVBDC -certified veteran 00:52:55.260 --> 00:52:58.039 -owned businesses, and the Business Roundtable 00:52:58.039 --> 00:53:05.259 reports something like $4 .3 billion spend. directed 00:53:05.259 --> 00:53:10.119 specifically to NVBDC certified businesses. Still 00:53:10.119 --> 00:53:11.840 can't hear me. How can you hear me now? Right. 00:53:12.320 --> 00:53:16.059 Okay. That's what happened. So how much time 00:53:16.059 --> 00:53:22.769 have I got? One minute. Okay. So. Anyway, that 00:53:22.769 --> 00:53:27.369 was Jim Fassone talking with Bill Elmore from 00:53:27.369 --> 00:53:29.889 NBBDC. That whole interview will be able to be 00:53:29.889 --> 00:53:32.329 here in a podcast in the next couple of weeks. 00:53:32.730 --> 00:53:34.670 We're going to go out today like we usually do 00:53:34.670 --> 00:53:37.710 on God Bless America. This version, we're going 00:53:37.710 --> 00:53:40.730 to have Jimmy Fortin and Sonia Isaacs Yearly 00:53:40.730 --> 00:53:44.090 are the singers in this particular version. As 00:53:44.090 --> 00:53:48.289 you know, I love this song and I love this country 00:53:48.289 --> 00:53:51.449 and I think it's just... helpful to us to know 00:53:51.449 --> 00:53:54.070 that there are many of us out here that want 00:53:54.070 --> 00:53:56.969 to know that we can preserve what we've got. 00:53:57.110 --> 00:54:00.250 And I think that that's really important. Next 00:54:00.250 --> 00:54:01.969 week, we're going to be talking, it's going to 00:54:01.969 --> 00:54:04.170 be Memorial Day. So we are going to be talking 00:54:04.170 --> 00:54:08.449 about what Memorial Day really is. And, you know, 00:54:08.489 --> 00:54:12.239 it's to honor those that didn't come home. And 00:54:12.239 --> 00:54:14.739 so we're going to be talking about that. So we've 00:54:14.739 --> 00:54:16.159 got that and we've got a number of things coming 00:54:16.159 --> 00:54:17.960 up. But anyway, we want to thank you all very 00:54:17.960 --> 00:54:20.340 much for listening. Until next week, you are 00:54:20.340 --> 00:54:45.750 dismissed. Stand beside her and guide her Through 00:54:45.750 --> 00:54:53.010 the night with a light from above From the mountains 00:54:53.010 --> 00:55:01.449 to the prairies To the oceans white with foam 00:55:01.449 --> 00:55:17.210 God bless America My home sweet home God bless 00:55:17.210 --> 00:55:23.530 America My home sweet home