WEBVTT 00:00:05.160 --> 00:00:08.980 All across America and around the world, this 00:00:08.980 --> 00:00:15.140 is Veterans Radio. This is Veterans Radio. Good 00:00:15.140 --> 00:00:18.739 day. I'm Jim Fosson. I'm the Officer of the Deck 00:00:18.739 --> 00:00:21.179 today here on Veterans Radio and thanks for joining 00:00:21.179 --> 00:00:24.010 us. We've got some interesting stories for you. 00:00:24.329 --> 00:00:26.210 We always want to remind you, you can find more 00:00:26.210 --> 00:00:29.609 about Veterans Radio at its Facebook site or 00:00:29.609 --> 00:00:32.810 at the web, veteransradio .org, where we're on 00:00:32.810 --> 00:00:35.990 the web 24 -7. You can find a lot of our podcasts 00:00:35.990 --> 00:00:39.369 there as well. We post new ones every Tuesday, 00:00:39.530 --> 00:00:43.829 so you can get a new story, a new interview, 00:00:43.969 --> 00:00:46.869 something you didn't know before by going to 00:00:46.869 --> 00:00:49.689 veteransradio .org. And before we get started, 00:00:49.890 --> 00:00:53.149 we want to thank our sponsors. First up, we want 00:00:53.149 --> 00:00:55.890 to thank National Veteran Business Development 00:00:55.890 --> 00:01:02.590 Council, nvbdc .org. It was established to certify 00:01:02.590 --> 00:01:05.250 both service disabled and veteran owned businesses. 00:01:05.609 --> 00:01:07.549 You'll find out how they can help your business 00:01:07.549 --> 00:01:13.430 by going to nvbdc .org. We want to thank Legal 00:01:13.430 --> 00:01:17.359 Help for Veterans. Legal Help for Veterans fights 00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:20.219 for veterans disability rights all across the 00:01:20.219 --> 00:01:26.519 nation. You can reach them at 800 -693 -4800 00:01:26.519 --> 00:01:32.579 or on the web at legalhelpforveterans .com. And 00:01:32.579 --> 00:01:36.700 finally, PuroClean. PuroClean is the paramedics 00:01:36.700 --> 00:01:39.060 of property damage. It provides water damage 00:01:39.060 --> 00:01:42.480 remediation, flood water removal, fire and smoke 00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:46.200 damage remediation, mold removal, biohazard cleanup. 00:01:47.120 --> 00:01:51.480 It also has a focus on veteran franchisees. You 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:54.359 can learn more about them by going to PuroClean 00:01:54.359 --> 00:01:59.620 .com. Welcome, I am Jim Fossone and this is Veterans 00:01:59.620 --> 00:02:02.799 Radio's spotlight on National Veteran Business 00:02:02.799 --> 00:02:07.799 Development Council, better known as NVBDC .org. 00:02:08.699 --> 00:02:11.719 Veterans Radio has a partnership with NVBDC. 00:02:12.280 --> 00:02:14.900 It is the nation's leading third party authority 00:02:14.900 --> 00:02:17.060 for certification of veteran owned businesses 00:02:17.060 --> 00:02:21.319 of all size. It's a 501c3 nonprofit established 00:02:21.319 --> 00:02:25.900 in 2013, so now a decade of certifying veteran 00:02:25.900 --> 00:02:31.340 owned businesses to assist commercial and government 00:02:31.340 --> 00:02:34.439 buyers to make sure that they're actually working 00:02:34.439 --> 00:02:37.240 with legitimate. veteran -owned businesses. It's 00:02:37.240 --> 00:02:39.960 a rigorous certification process designed to 00:02:39.960 --> 00:02:41.960 withstand the scrutiny of governmental and corporate 00:02:41.960 --> 00:02:46.340 entities seeking to utilize certified VOBs. And 00:02:46.340 --> 00:02:48.819 we're really pleased to have today on Veterans 00:02:48.819 --> 00:02:51.800 Radio Bill Elmore. I'm going to give you more 00:02:51.800 --> 00:02:54.060 about Bill in a minute, but Bill, welcome to 00:02:54.060 --> 00:02:57.419 Veterans Radio. Well, thank you, Jim. I appreciate 00:02:57.419 --> 00:03:01.419 the opportunity. So Bill is sort of the godfather 00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:05.500 of veteran -owned businesses. And he has been 00:03:05.500 --> 00:03:08.840 supporting veteran -owned businesses for his 00:03:08.840 --> 00:03:11.080 entire professional career. But let me back up 00:03:11.080 --> 00:03:13.919 a little bit to put some context around that. 00:03:15.139 --> 00:03:19.840 It starts as a simple kid who joins the United 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:22.020 States Air Force and spends a little time in 00:03:22.020 --> 00:03:28.439 Texas, Illinois, Oklahoma. You go on after discharge 00:03:28.439 --> 00:03:32.919 to work. at a couple of veteran -centric places, 00:03:33.060 --> 00:03:41.189 including the VA National personnel record center 00:03:41.189 --> 00:03:45.229 in St. Louis. Many of us know that from the so 00:03:45.229 --> 00:03:48.729 -called great fire destroying records. You went 00:03:48.729 --> 00:03:53.870 on into further work as the executive director 00:03:53.870 --> 00:03:56.610 for the St. Louis Area Veterans Service Centers. 00:03:57.449 --> 00:03:59.849 You took some of that experience and said, hey, 00:03:59.889 --> 00:04:01.949 I'm gonna help people retrieve their records 00:04:01.949 --> 00:04:07.599 from NPRC. and then found your way into the U 00:04:07.599 --> 00:04:10.620 .S. Small Business Association, or administration, 00:04:10.840 --> 00:04:14.680 I should say, SBA, and that's kind of where this 00:04:14.680 --> 00:04:18.040 story really starts. How did you get so interested 00:04:18.040 --> 00:04:21.879 in veteran -owned businesses? Well, that's a 00:04:21.879 --> 00:04:28.620 good question. Yeah, the start was by accident. 00:04:28.660 --> 00:04:33.120 I broke my leg playing rugby. Now wait a minute, 00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:35.199 that's the first time I've ever had an interview 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:37.540 start there. Okay, you broke your leg playing 00:04:37.540 --> 00:04:41.220 rugby and somehow that got you into it. Exactly, 00:04:41.500 --> 00:04:44.480 and so it was literally that sort of an accident. 00:04:44.699 --> 00:04:47.500 The reason that, I won't say the reason the accident 00:04:47.500 --> 00:04:51.300 occurred, that was on me. But what happened was 00:04:51.300 --> 00:04:55.379 I was going to school full -time on the inadequate 00:04:55.379 --> 00:05:00.360 GI bill of the day back in 1973. uh... and i 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:03.079 was working full -time i'd just started working 00:05:03.079 --> 00:05:05.720 at a hospital in the saint louis area because 00:05:05.720 --> 00:05:09.360 i was in training to become a respiratory therapy 00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:12.620 technician the last thing i ever intended to 00:05:12.620 --> 00:05:17.000 be was a veteran it just happened uh... so anyway 00:05:17.000 --> 00:05:20.360 uh... when i broke my leg i had to quit my job 00:05:20.360 --> 00:05:23.439 at the hospital and suddenly i went from full 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:27.189 -time jobs and no job And then a friend of mine 00:05:27.189 --> 00:05:30.230 that I played rugby with, another veteran, mentioned 00:05:30.230 --> 00:05:33.930 VA work study. And I said, I don't have a clue 00:05:33.930 --> 00:05:36.269 what the heck that is, but I need the income. 00:05:36.930 --> 00:05:40.089 So I went to the veteran's office at the community 00:05:40.089 --> 00:05:43.290 college I was attending, and I asked the gal 00:05:43.290 --> 00:05:46.269 who ran the office, a wonderful lady named Doris 00:05:46.269 --> 00:05:50.230 Lata. And Doris said, I don't have any work study 00:05:50.230 --> 00:05:53.310 slots on campus, but there's this group of guys. 00:05:53.709 --> 00:05:56.730 Doing something out of this old American Legion 00:05:56.730 --> 00:06:00.370 post and it was in a metric It was in the St. 00:06:00.509 --> 00:06:03.370 Louis metropolitan area just east of where I 00:06:03.370 --> 00:06:06.569 was living So I said sure send me out there and 00:06:06.569 --> 00:06:10.329 I went out to what was then the very startup 00:06:10.329 --> 00:06:14.790 of a free self -help One -stop veteran service 00:06:14.790 --> 00:06:17.529 center in st. Louis that we opened in a Legion 00:06:17.529 --> 00:06:21.829 post. So for the first four years In that not 00:06:21.829 --> 00:06:25.629 -for -profit, it became a not -for -profit. We 00:06:25.629 --> 00:06:29.730 probably had maybe 600 veterans walk in the door 00:06:29.730 --> 00:06:32.209 and whatever they ask us to help them with, we 00:06:32.209 --> 00:06:38.089 helped them. And that led ultimately to ending 00:06:38.089 --> 00:06:43.629 up creating the first proposal as a work. project 00:06:43.629 --> 00:06:47.709 in my college education about how do we take 00:06:47.709 --> 00:06:52.230 this basic concept of a self -help center for 00:06:52.230 --> 00:06:55.350 veterans and turn them into a full -time deal 00:06:55.350 --> 00:06:58.930 here and say, look, we did that. And about two 00:06:58.930 --> 00:07:02.009 years later, our annual budget approached $400 00:07:02.009 --> 00:07:06.250 ,000 a year. And we had somewhere north of 1 00:07:06.250 --> 00:07:08.730 ,000 veterans a year walking through the door. 00:07:09.310 --> 00:07:12.790 So that went on for almost 20 years. and I ended 00:07:12.790 --> 00:07:16.269 up running the entire shop. But what was happening 00:07:16.269 --> 00:07:19.610 was about maybe one out of every 20 veterans 00:07:19.610 --> 00:07:23.370 that walked in the door was asking about self 00:07:23.370 --> 00:07:26.110 -employment or small business or creating their 00:07:26.110 --> 00:07:30.529 own shop. So I started contacting the SBA district 00:07:30.529 --> 00:07:33.250 office in St. Louis, which in those days had 00:07:33.250 --> 00:07:37.399 40 to 50 employees. And I started building relations 00:07:37.399 --> 00:07:41.040 with people there. And any time a veteran had 00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:44.639 any significant question about entrepreneurship, 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:48.399 I basically hand carried them over to the SBA 00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:50.839 and we began to engage in a lot of different 00:07:50.839 --> 00:07:54.720 kinds of stuff. Now, this is the very short version. 00:07:55.279 --> 00:08:00.519 To sort of leap ahead, Ultimately I ended up 00:08:00.519 --> 00:08:03.920 creating back in the 1980s what was called the 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:06.399 Veterans Entrepreneurship Training Program here 00:08:06.399 --> 00:08:10.120 in St. Louis and in two plus years we trained 00:08:10.120 --> 00:08:14.959 almost 200 veterans and their spouses and their 00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:18.560 survivors if they were widows in entrepreneurship 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:22.560 and the program was incredibly successful and 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:26.360 the other thing it did for me was it exposed 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:30.579 me to a whole community of already successful, 00:08:30.579 --> 00:08:34.539 mostly Vietnam veterans that were in the business 00:08:34.539 --> 00:08:38.600 world in St. Louis, who in those days knew each 00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:42.320 other professionally, but none of them knew each 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:46.200 other as veterans. Let me jump in here because 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:49.419 this is, veteran radio listeners, this is the 00:08:49.419 --> 00:08:55.590 start of what we see now 45 years later, where 00:08:55.590 --> 00:08:59.230 there are entrepreneurial boot camps and universities 00:08:59.230 --> 00:09:02.450 have specific programs to help veterans get into 00:09:02.450 --> 00:09:05.289 business, and government programs exist at the 00:09:05.289 --> 00:09:08.289 state, local, and federal levels. But in the 00:09:08.289 --> 00:09:10.610 80s, in the late 70s and the early 80s, none 00:09:10.610 --> 00:09:14.470 of this existed, and even the concept of what 00:09:14.470 --> 00:09:17.129 a certified veteran owned business didn't really 00:09:17.129 --> 00:09:21.590 exist, did it, Bill Gilmore? No, it did not exist, 00:09:21.610 --> 00:09:25.789 and I'll give you Just to touch a history, the 00:09:25.789 --> 00:09:30.470 original 1944 GI Bill included small business 00:09:30.470 --> 00:09:36.230 lending for veterans. In December 1974, Congress 00:09:36.230 --> 00:09:40.710 deauthorized small business lending to veterans 00:09:40.710 --> 00:09:45.009 in the GI Bill. So for 30 years, we had a lot 00:09:45.009 --> 00:09:47.230 of help coming out of the federal sector for 00:09:47.230 --> 00:09:50.990 veteran entrepreneurs. In 74, when our generation 00:09:50.990 --> 00:09:55.029 came home, and was coming home still, virtually 00:09:55.029 --> 00:09:58.110 all the assistance that had been delivered to 00:09:58.110 --> 00:10:01.190 previous generations of veterans disappeared. 00:10:02.850 --> 00:10:05.870 So about the same time we were starting our Veterans 00:10:05.870 --> 00:10:09.049 Service Center, boom, what was available from 00:10:09.049 --> 00:10:12.929 VA at the time up until December 1974 just went 00:10:12.929 --> 00:10:18.740 away. So it really was up to us. and then sort 00:10:18.740 --> 00:10:21.919 of to finish the story about the vet program 00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:25.279 that we put together in St. Louis in the 80s. 00:10:25.759 --> 00:10:30.539 That happened and it so motivated me that by 00:10:30.539 --> 00:10:34.299 1995 when I had run the not -for -profit for 00:10:34.299 --> 00:10:37.539 20 years and I had run my small business as a 00:10:37.539 --> 00:10:42.179 sideline very early in the morning, I had had 00:10:42.179 --> 00:10:44.940 all I could take of managing the not -for -profit. 00:10:45.289 --> 00:10:48.210 So I said, I'm going to move to my business full 00:10:48.210 --> 00:10:54.090 time. That was in 1995, my military records business, 00:10:54.230 --> 00:10:57.429 helping veterans get their records. So anyway, 00:10:57.450 --> 00:11:00.850 when I did that, I said to myself, I am so enamored 00:11:00.850 --> 00:11:04.809 with this entrepreneurship stuff. The one thing 00:11:04.809 --> 00:11:07.730 I'm going to volunteer my time as an advocate 00:11:07.730 --> 00:11:10.029 around is going to be veteran small business 00:11:10.029 --> 00:11:14.220 ownership. And if you move a little earlier than 00:11:14.220 --> 00:11:17.460 that, we actually had legislation introduced 00:11:17.460 --> 00:11:24.519 in Congress in 1990, 1991, and 1992. But all 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:27.820 three of those efforts were blocked by people 00:11:27.820 --> 00:11:30.679 who didn't want veterans at the table. And I 00:11:30.679 --> 00:11:32.860 won't get into detail because I'm not trying 00:11:32.860 --> 00:11:35.960 to cast aspersions, but there were significant 00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:40.009 powers at the congressional level. and in the 00:11:40.009 --> 00:11:43.029 rest of the small business community that didn't 00:11:43.029 --> 00:11:46.389 want veterans fully at the table. So anyway, 00:11:46.990 --> 00:11:51.730 97 comes along and I had gotten to know Congressman 00:11:51.730 --> 00:11:55.590 Jim Tellen from Missouri not because of my veterans 00:11:55.590 --> 00:12:01.409 work, but because a dioxin incinerator was located 00:12:01.409 --> 00:12:05.769 in his district. And I knew the story of DOCS 00:12:05.769 --> 00:12:08.049 and because of my not -for -profit work with 00:12:08.049 --> 00:12:10.250 the Veterans Service Center and the whole Agent 00:12:10.250 --> 00:12:12.970 Orange fiasco, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 00:12:13.529 --> 00:12:16.370 So after about four and a half years of volunteer 00:12:16.370 --> 00:12:19.429 work with Congressman Jim Tallent and his staff 00:12:19.429 --> 00:12:23.529 in his district, he asked one day in a meeting, 00:12:23.730 --> 00:12:26.529 does anybody want to talk about something other 00:12:26.529 --> 00:12:30.019 than the incinerator? And I said, Jim, I'd love 00:12:30.019 --> 00:12:32.539 to talk to you about how veterans are left out 00:12:32.539 --> 00:12:37.659 at the SBA. Boom. So that was the start of it. 00:12:37.740 --> 00:12:41.100 And then by 1999, we had two different public 00:12:41.100 --> 00:12:44.139 laws passed. I ended up drafting much of those 00:12:44.139 --> 00:12:48.620 public laws as a volunteer. And I never intended 00:12:48.620 --> 00:12:53.240 to go to DC. But once the 1999 statute passed, 00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:56.379 which created the first service disabled veterans 00:12:56.379 --> 00:13:00.340 procurement goal program and the veterans procurement 00:13:00.340 --> 00:13:04.700 goal program, by 1999, the community was telling 00:13:04.700 --> 00:13:08.360 me, Bill, we need you to go after the job. I 00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:11.039 said, what? They said, we need you to go after 00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:14.309 the job. So I did. I talked to my family. I talked 00:13:14.309 --> 00:13:17.889 to my wife. I was in my early 50s. I was at that 00:13:17.889 --> 00:13:21.769 point at the height of my abilities. I knew this 00:13:21.769 --> 00:13:24.669 community and I knew the background better than 00:13:24.669 --> 00:13:28.929 virtually anybody alive. I still do. And I went 00:13:28.929 --> 00:13:32.029 after the job and 71 other people went after 00:13:32.029 --> 00:13:35.669 the job and lo and behold, the SBA hired me. 00:13:36.429 --> 00:13:39.850 Well, it's because of all that experience, right? 00:13:40.110 --> 00:13:43.230 What you're bringing to the table. But talk to, 00:13:43.429 --> 00:13:47.289 and this has been sort of a ping pong thing between 00:13:47.289 --> 00:13:52.250 VA and SBA and back to SBA. Why is veteran owned 00:13:52.250 --> 00:13:55.649 businesses, why was it seen as such a redheaded 00:13:55.649 --> 00:13:59.730 stepchild inside the government like that? Well, 00:13:59.970 --> 00:14:03.429 I think there was little focus. The only program 00:14:03.429 --> 00:14:06.389 other than the Osdebu that the VA had at the 00:14:06.389 --> 00:14:10.690 time, was the vocational rehabilitation and employment 00:14:10.690 --> 00:14:14.129 services program. And they actually had authority 00:14:14.129 --> 00:14:18.610 to help train disabled veterans in entrepreneurship. 00:14:18.950 --> 00:14:22.870 But when you looked at the data, and I did, better 00:14:22.870 --> 00:14:26.730 than 100 ,000 veterans each year were eligible 00:14:26.730 --> 00:14:31.649 for help from the VA Voc Rehab program. And the 00:14:31.649 --> 00:14:35.269 number of veterans that received small business 00:14:35.269 --> 00:14:40.000 assistance in VA Volk Rehab numbered about 25. 00:14:42.179 --> 00:14:45.279 So you had this huge disconnect between what 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:49.259 the VA Volk Rehab folks on paper could do and 00:14:49.259 --> 00:14:54.039 what, in fact, they were doing. So when Jim Talent, 00:14:54.539 --> 00:14:56.820 who was then the chairman of the House Small 00:14:56.820 --> 00:15:00.480 Business Committee, asked that question, I saw 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:04.860 my opportunity not to try to fix the VA. but 00:15:04.860 --> 00:15:09.139 to try to fix the SBA. Because SBA was small 00:15:09.139 --> 00:15:12.899 business, the VA was veterans. What we were talking 00:15:12.899 --> 00:15:17.480 about was entrepreneurship for veterans, not 00:15:17.480 --> 00:15:20.379 veterans for entrepreneurship. So it made, to 00:15:20.379 --> 00:15:22.940 me, a heck of a lot more sense. Plus, at the 00:15:22.940 --> 00:15:26.659 same time, the chairman of the Senate Small Business 00:15:26.659 --> 00:15:30.340 Committee at the time was Senator Bond from Missouri. 00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:33.720 And I knew Senator Bond from back in his time 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:37.740 when he was governor, and so did Jim Talent because 00:15:37.740 --> 00:15:41.720 Jim had served in the Missouri House when Bond 00:15:41.720 --> 00:15:45.500 was governor of Missouri. So Jim already had 00:15:45.500 --> 00:15:50.840 a very strong and insightful working relationship 00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:54.500 with Senator Bond from the same state. So I remember 00:15:54.500 --> 00:15:56.940 telling a friend of mine walking next to the 00:15:56.940 --> 00:16:00.159 Library of Congress on a voluntary visit to D 00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:04.279 .C. I said the moon's aligned. You know, suddenly 00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:07.100 everything is available to us that we've been 00:16:07.100 --> 00:16:11.899 working on for 25 years to finally get this done. 00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:15.879 And by the time we got the law passed in 99, 00:16:16.259 --> 00:16:19.240 there was probably 200 people involved. I do 00:16:19.240 --> 00:16:22.059 not take credit for all of this. I initiated 00:16:22.059 --> 00:16:24.720 it. It's very clear. I know that better than 00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:28.559 anybody. But the community stepped up and filled 00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:32.179 the gap and helped bring the pressure and bring 00:16:32.179 --> 00:16:35.320 their expertise and bring their insights into 00:16:35.320 --> 00:16:39.159 what should we do if we could engage at that 00:16:39.159 --> 00:16:43.120 point the small business administration into 00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:46.679 some serious effort and programs and policies 00:16:46.679 --> 00:16:49.580 to support veterans because the point i kept 00:16:49.580 --> 00:16:52.799 making to the hill and i did this in testimony 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:57.340 and that is congress you're giving veterans preference 00:16:57.340 --> 00:17:03.879 to everybody at SBA but veterans. And arguably, 00:17:04.319 --> 00:17:07.900 I could make a presentation that says the reason 00:17:07.900 --> 00:17:11.180 you're not providing veterans preference to veterans 00:17:11.180 --> 00:17:15.740 is because they are veterans. There's no other 00:17:15.740 --> 00:17:21.250 visible reason. And as an aside to that, The 00:17:21.250 --> 00:17:24.289 most diverse community of citizens in America 00:17:24.289 --> 00:17:27.170 are our veterans. Absolutely. We're talking to 00:17:27.170 --> 00:17:30.390 Bill Elmore, who's sort of the godfather of veteran 00:17:30.390 --> 00:17:33.150 owned businesses. He's spent his professional 00:17:33.150 --> 00:17:36.789 career really advancing the recognition of veteran 00:17:36.789 --> 00:17:41.769 owned businesses, set asides for veteran owned 00:17:41.769 --> 00:17:45.109 businesses. But Bill, I pulled a quote out somewhere 00:17:45.109 --> 00:17:49.410 where you said, you know, veteran business owners 00:17:49.410 --> 00:17:52.509 certainly are worthy But this is really a great 00:17:52.509 --> 00:17:55.869 investment, and that concept that you viewed 00:17:55.869 --> 00:17:58.730 this as a great investment, I wanted you to elaborate 00:17:58.730 --> 00:18:02.309 on. Well, the reason I thought of that, after 00:18:02.309 --> 00:18:05.730 running the, over the 20 years I ran our veteran 00:18:05.730 --> 00:18:08.349 service centers, we had somewhere in the range 00:18:08.349 --> 00:18:12.069 of 15 ,000 veterans come through the door. And 00:18:12.069 --> 00:18:14.910 the longer I did that work, the more I began 00:18:14.910 --> 00:18:19.630 to see the double -sided sword of advocacy. What 00:18:19.630 --> 00:18:24.000 I saw was, homelessness, veterans with disabilities 00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:28.960 being denied by VA, unemployed veterans, entrepreneurial 00:18:28.960 --> 00:18:31.859 veterans who had no resources that they could 00:18:31.859 --> 00:18:34.960 utilize to help them get their business going, 00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:37.940 et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I saw a lot 00:18:37.940 --> 00:18:40.700 of the work that we have done through our Veterans 00:18:40.700 --> 00:18:43.660 Service Center. If you talked about it publicly, 00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:49.099 it tended to have a negative connotation. So 00:18:49.099 --> 00:18:52.000 what I was interested in was entrepreneurship 00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:56.559 because the one best way for a veteran to make 00:18:56.559 --> 00:18:59.019 their way in America, I would argue, and I still 00:18:59.019 --> 00:19:03.480 believe this, is through self -employment. Veterans 00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:07.119 hire more veterans than anybody else. Everybody 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:10.160 talks about how many veterans work in the federal 00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:13.380 government, and I get that. You know, it's somewhere 00:19:13.380 --> 00:19:16.079 in the range of 600 ,000, whatever the number 00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:20.059 is, despite what's going on in DC. Self -employment 00:19:20.059 --> 00:19:23.819 amongst veterans is more than double that. Veterans 00:19:23.819 --> 00:19:28.819 create their own jobs. What we lack is access 00:19:28.819 --> 00:19:32.079 to resources, access to programs and policies 00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:35.579 that recognize our unique background and skills, 00:19:35.960 --> 00:19:39.619 and also recognize that veterans, when we get 00:19:39.619 --> 00:19:42.779 out of the service, come home and we are behind 00:19:42.779 --> 00:19:45.839 the curve. The people we went to school with, 00:19:46.059 --> 00:19:48.359 whether it was high school or college or whatever, 00:19:49.400 --> 00:19:52.480 have a three, four, five, six, seven, ten year 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:56.140 head start on us operating in America's private 00:19:56.140 --> 00:20:00.400 sector. So veterans are almost automatically 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:04.700 disadvantaged initially when they come home because 00:20:04.700 --> 00:20:08.589 we've been disjoined from the mainstream American 00:20:08.589 --> 00:20:12.069 economic system in our military service that 00:20:12.069 --> 00:20:15.130 we proudly and gladly did. Yeah, we talk about 00:20:15.130 --> 00:20:17.509 this on veterans radio a lot, that veteran, because 00:20:17.509 --> 00:20:19.150 we talk to so many veteran owned businesses, 00:20:19.910 --> 00:20:21.910 veterans come out and they're behind the curve 00:20:21.910 --> 00:20:25.049 because they had a military network, they don't 00:20:25.049 --> 00:20:28.109 have a business network. That's exactly right, 00:20:28.190 --> 00:20:30.609 in fact. They have a checking account because 00:20:30.609 --> 00:20:33.670 their government pay goes in that, but they don't 00:20:33.670 --> 00:20:37.210 know how to do financing to cash flow of business. 00:20:38.130 --> 00:20:40.710 So yeah, your point's well taken. They start 00:20:40.710 --> 00:20:42.950 out behind the curve because of their time in 00:20:42.950 --> 00:20:47.250 service. It's just a fact. Well, and there's 00:20:47.250 --> 00:20:49.230 a few other things that I would add to that. 00:20:49.309 --> 00:20:51.529 Not only do they have a checking account, they 00:20:51.529 --> 00:20:54.990 don't know the bankers. They don't have equity 00:20:54.990 --> 00:20:59.950 in homes. So the thing is the secure financing 00:20:59.950 --> 00:21:03.130 if you're going to go to a bank one is generally 00:21:03.130 --> 00:21:05.529 you need to have some kind of a relationship 00:21:05.529 --> 00:21:09.390 and there is no network of veteran bankers in 00:21:09.390 --> 00:21:11.890 America that I'm aware of although I'm talking 00:21:11.890 --> 00:21:15.029 with my friends in the American Legion about 00:21:15.029 --> 00:21:18.529 how do we begin to build one? There is there's 00:21:18.529 --> 00:21:21.230 a lack of equity or collateral in fact one of 00:21:21.230 --> 00:21:24.210 the little pilot programs that I was able to 00:21:24.210 --> 00:21:27.279 get started before I couldn't I couldn't stand 00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:30.059 being a federal employee any longer and left 00:21:30.059 --> 00:21:34.400 DC after 12 years, was a pilot program in the 00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:36.759 state of Maryland. And I don't know the outcomes, 00:21:36.819 --> 00:21:40.640 so don't ask me that. But the pilot program basically 00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:46.400 said to SBA lenders, let the veteran use their 00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:52.700 experience in the military as collateral. An 00:21:52.700 --> 00:21:54.799 important point, because everybody can't figure 00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:56.559 out what that experience, how that translates 00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:59.660 to the civilian world. But one of the things 00:21:59.660 --> 00:22:02.700 I also saw you quoted as saying, and confirm 00:22:02.700 --> 00:22:06.779 for me if this is true, that about 15 % of small 00:22:06.779 --> 00:22:09.940 businesses are owned by veterans. Is that about 00:22:09.940 --> 00:22:15.279 right? Well, historically it's been in that range. 00:22:15.549 --> 00:22:19.190 About 15 % of reserve and National Guard members 00:22:19.190 --> 00:22:22.109 are self -employed or small business owners or 00:22:22.109 --> 00:22:25.349 perhaps on a farm, that kind of thing. So it 00:22:25.349 --> 00:22:28.950 kind of depends on what technical definition 00:22:28.950 --> 00:22:32.289 you use of small business owners, but I tend 00:22:32.289 --> 00:22:36.910 to refer to it as self -employed or small business 00:22:36.910 --> 00:22:41.349 owners. About 80 % of small businesses in America 00:22:41.349 --> 00:22:47.019 have no employee but the owner. About 20 % of 00:22:47.019 --> 00:22:50.640 small businesses in America are referred to as 00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:54.119 employer small businesses and they have other 00:22:54.119 --> 00:22:57.440 people who work for them. So 80 % of veterans, 00:22:57.660 --> 00:23:00.400 approximately, it's actually closer to 81 I think, 00:23:01.180 --> 00:23:04.539 about 80 % of veterans have nobody working in 00:23:04.539 --> 00:23:07.559 their business but themselves. And that was actually 00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:10.480 the case in my small business. I had four or 00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:13.869 five people I could call who would come work 00:23:13.869 --> 00:23:17.589 for me temporarily, other veterans, if I had 00:23:17.589 --> 00:23:20.329 a job big enough through the National Personnel 00:23:20.329 --> 00:23:22.809 Records Center that I needed that kind of help 00:23:22.809 --> 00:23:26.309 or some more manpower. It's always easy to find 00:23:26.309 --> 00:23:29.529 people that would come work for you temporarily 00:23:29.529 --> 00:23:31.990 if you've got an opportunity and you can pay 00:23:31.990 --> 00:23:35.470 them. Oh, yeah. Well, and that first employee 00:23:35.470 --> 00:23:37.549 you get's the hardest one to get because you've 00:23:37.549 --> 00:23:40.029 gone from being just yourself, paying yourself. 00:23:40.460 --> 00:23:43.000 to having to be responsible for somebody else. 00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:46.700 So that's an amazing statistic. I want to go 00:23:46.700 --> 00:23:50.460 to this idea because so much has changed over 00:23:50.460 --> 00:23:55.619 the last 45 years or so that you've been at the 00:23:55.619 --> 00:24:00.000 forefront of. At one point, veteran... Business 00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:03.000 owners didn't even self -identify as veterans. 00:24:03.140 --> 00:24:06.720 They just were business owners. And then as it 00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:09.579 evolved over the time, people would raise their 00:24:09.579 --> 00:24:11.299 hand and say, well, I'm a veteran -owned business. 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:14.299 Self -certify, if you will. And we went through 00:24:14.299 --> 00:24:19.079 that for a decade or more. How have you seen 00:24:19.079 --> 00:24:21.859 just even the business owner's mentality about 00:24:21.859 --> 00:24:24.680 identifying and then maybe even certifying? Hey, 00:24:24.700 --> 00:24:27.119 I should get certified as a veteran owned business 00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:30.140 change that because I think there has been a 00:24:30.140 --> 00:24:33.319 change. Oh, there's absolutely been a change. 00:24:33.319 --> 00:24:36.279 I think what's happened and this is and this 00:24:36.279 --> 00:24:39.140 was the approach I took because remember, I was 00:24:39.140 --> 00:24:42.720 not a bureaucrat by training. I was an advocate 00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:46.720 and an entrepreneur. So when I went to SBA, I 00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:52.259 said to myself, how do I engage? SBA in veteran 00:24:52.259 --> 00:24:55.259 entrepreneurship. How do we find these men and 00:24:55.259 --> 00:24:58.680 women? How do we reach them and how do we design 00:24:58.680 --> 00:25:02.740 programs and policies that actually can be helpful 00:25:02.740 --> 00:25:06.000 and supportive? So what I did was I knew how 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:08.640 to do outreach because I had dealt with thousands 00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:11.579 of veterans and I knew the basic issues that 00:25:11.579 --> 00:25:14.380 many of them presented to us in our not -for 00:25:14.380 --> 00:25:19.240 -profit years. So I began to engage in how do 00:25:19.240 --> 00:25:23.880 I bring veterans into touch with SBA programs, 00:25:24.220 --> 00:25:27.400 policies, and partners, which was really important. 00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:30.539 The thing to understand about SBA in those days, 00:25:30.660 --> 00:25:34.279 and I think it's likely still true today, when 00:25:34.279 --> 00:25:38.420 I worked at SBA, there were in the range of 2 00:25:38.420 --> 00:25:42.920 ,100 employees in the entire agency across the 00:25:42.920 --> 00:25:46.920 entire country. 2 ,100. That was two -thirds 00:25:46.920 --> 00:25:52.240 the size of my high school. Now what SBA does 00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:55.539 though and does incredibly well is they have 00:25:55.539 --> 00:25:59.339 lots of third -party partners. So you had in 00:25:59.339 --> 00:26:02.759 those days in excess of a thousand small business 00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:06.240 development centers. You had between 50 and 100 00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:09.380 women's business centers. We had hundreds of 00:26:09.380 --> 00:26:12.849 score chapters. with thousands of veterans who 00:26:12.849 --> 00:26:16.470 were score volunteers and mentors and guides 00:26:16.470 --> 00:26:19.950 and advisors. And then I began to create the 00:26:19.950 --> 00:26:22.250 Veterans Business Outreach Center program and 00:26:22.250 --> 00:26:25.250 a lot of the stuff that is now spilled across 00:26:25.250 --> 00:26:28.869 so many campuses and states and local governments. 00:26:29.289 --> 00:26:32.230 But when you go back and you look at the data, 00:26:33.089 --> 00:26:36.829 The Census Bureau used to do what was used to 00:26:36.829 --> 00:26:39.710 do every five years called the survey of business 00:26:39.710 --> 00:26:43.109 ownership where they would inventory and ask 00:26:43.109 --> 00:26:47.650 questions of millions of small business owners 00:26:47.650 --> 00:26:51.890 across America. Not hundreds, not thousands, 00:26:52.069 --> 00:26:54.609 but literally like three or four million would 00:26:54.609 --> 00:26:58.029 get questionnaires. And that's where that 15 00:26:58.029 --> 00:27:02.130 % number came from. When I started this work, 00:27:02.279 --> 00:27:05.000 there were in excess of four million veteran 00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:09.019 -owned small businesses in America. And they 00:27:09.019 --> 00:27:12.440 made up about 15 % of the small businesses in 00:27:12.440 --> 00:27:15.259 America. Now we're somewhere in the range of 00:27:15.259 --> 00:27:18.299 four or five percent, and we're below two million. 00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:24.059 But the latest data that came out of, oh, what 00:27:24.059 --> 00:27:26.759 the heck is it called, GEM, G -E -M, which comes 00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:29.759 out of Babson College, which I think is in Massachusetts, 00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:33.140 don't hold me to that. where they are tracking 00:27:33.140 --> 00:27:36.519 that upwards of fifty percent of active service 00:27:36.519 --> 00:27:39.559 members and reserve and national guard members 00:27:39.559 --> 00:27:43.759 are thinking about our may have spired entrepreneurship 00:27:43.759 --> 00:27:48.099 post -service. The number of veterans themselves, 00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:51.259 and our numbers of veterans have greatly diminished 00:27:51.259 --> 00:27:53.839 as you know over these last couple of decades, 00:27:55.079 --> 00:27:57.599 the number of veterans themselves that are already 00:27:57.599 --> 00:28:00.759 self -employed Two -thirds of them when I was 00:28:00.759 --> 00:28:05.599 at SBA were over the age of 45. So that was my 00:28:05.599 --> 00:28:08.440 generation of veterans who, despite the lack 00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:12.039 of any support or assistance or engagement from 00:28:12.039 --> 00:28:15.339 government, went on to entrepreneurship anyway. 00:28:15.539 --> 00:28:19.380 Veterans are entrepreneurial. Historically, I 00:28:19.380 --> 00:28:24.000 would argue you can make a case that grants of 00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:28.660 land at the very creation of our nation really 00:28:28.660 --> 00:28:32.180 represented self -employment opportunity to veterans 00:28:32.180 --> 00:28:36.519 at the physical and economic frontiers of America. 00:28:37.180 --> 00:28:40.079 That's true still today. That's an interesting 00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:43.640 idea. There's a PhD thesis for somebody to pick 00:28:43.640 --> 00:28:49.619 up on and develop. We are talking to Bill Elmore. 00:28:49.779 --> 00:28:52.359 He was the founding associate administrator for 00:28:52.359 --> 00:28:55.890 the Veterans Business Development. at the SBA 00:28:55.890 --> 00:28:58.289 and the creator of the SBA Office of Veterans 00:28:58.289 --> 00:29:02.269 Business Development and has seen this movement 00:29:02.269 --> 00:29:09.450 grow and recently spoke at the NVBDC conference. 00:29:09.750 --> 00:29:12.690 Now, NVBDC, talking about how much this has grown, 00:29:13.529 --> 00:29:16.950 recently put out a report talking about the billion 00:29:16.950 --> 00:29:21.069 dollar roundtable and looking at veteran owned, 00:29:21.750 --> 00:29:25.500 NVBDC certified veteran owned businesses, and 00:29:25.500 --> 00:29:28.720 the Business Roundtable reports something like 00:29:28.720 --> 00:29:35.720 4 .3 billion spend directed specifically to NVBDC 00:29:35.720 --> 00:29:40.180 certified businesses. I mean, this thing is massive 00:29:40.180 --> 00:29:44.420 when you look at it from that front, Bill. Why 00:29:44.420 --> 00:29:49.059 do you think something like NVBDC and veteran 00:29:49.059 --> 00:29:53.430 certification is important? Well, it's important 00:29:53.430 --> 00:29:56.809 back to the member the point that you and I agreed 00:29:56.809 --> 00:30:00.910 on and that's the Arguably the most diverse community 00:30:00.910 --> 00:30:05.490 of of American citizens are our veterans That 00:30:05.490 --> 00:30:08.930 diversity does include excuse my French shit 00:30:08.930 --> 00:30:15.150 bums and charlatans So Having been in the business 00:30:15.150 --> 00:30:18.410 for better than 50 years. I know that there's 00:30:18.410 --> 00:30:21.920 a slice of the veterans world that I would not 00:30:21.920 --> 00:30:26.460 trust my family with. Now that doesn't make us 00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:29.720 bad because actually I think on average we're 00:30:29.720 --> 00:30:33.259 better than typical Americans when it comes to 00:30:33.259 --> 00:30:36.400 people because the military service itself and 00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:39.940 then being a veteran is an honor based system 00:30:39.940 --> 00:30:44.250 and if you're not honorable in your engagement 00:30:44.250 --> 00:30:48.089 either in your military service or post -service 00:30:48.089 --> 00:30:51.650 if you get into the veterans community. If you 00:30:51.650 --> 00:30:54.109 act dishonorably, people are going to disown 00:30:54.109 --> 00:30:58.730 you and quit dealing with you. So, back to your 00:30:58.730 --> 00:31:03.049 question, what we need is we need a system that 00:31:03.049 --> 00:31:06.450 gives comfort to the billion -dollar roundtable 00:31:06.450 --> 00:31:10.700 and the rest of America's private sector to focus 00:31:10.700 --> 00:31:13.319 on, you don't need to worry about whether or 00:31:13.319 --> 00:31:17.000 not this guy is gaming you. You only need to 00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:21.240 worry about the fact that this man or woman is 00:31:21.240 --> 00:31:25.819 a veteran, served, accomplished their missions 00:31:25.819 --> 00:31:30.259 in the service, got out, caught up, and are now 00:31:30.259 --> 00:31:33.519 doing so well in their small business ownership. 00:31:33.819 --> 00:31:38.220 that they can be an asset and a resource to you 00:31:38.220 --> 00:31:42.259 at Walmart or wherever it might be. They bring 00:31:42.259 --> 00:31:47.599 skills, they bring worldly experience, they bring 00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:52.839 the ability to engage with people of all backgrounds 00:31:52.839 --> 00:31:57.319 and shades and hues and histories because that's 00:31:57.319 --> 00:32:00.240 what you do in the military. The mission becomes 00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:03.140 the mission. not your personal mission other 00:32:03.140 --> 00:32:06.359 than perhaps your survival and your support for 00:32:06.359 --> 00:32:10.359 your fellow service member. The mission is accomplished 00:32:10.359 --> 00:32:14.099 the mission and they bring that ethos to business 00:32:14.099 --> 00:32:18.019 ownership and I think they bring an integrity 00:32:18.019 --> 00:32:21.880 and an honesty to business ownership generally 00:32:21.880 --> 00:32:26.759 that America desperately needs back. in America's 00:32:26.759 --> 00:32:30.200 corporate model, and who better to re -inoculate 00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:33.140 the private sector than the men and women who 00:32:33.140 --> 00:32:36.140 have defended that very private sector through 00:32:36.140 --> 00:32:38.599 our military service. It's as simple as that. 00:32:39.039 --> 00:32:41.759 Well, you got a chance to meet with the leadership 00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:45.759 of NVBDC, and I'm sure many members who are at 00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:48.900 the conference. I think you're right. One of 00:32:48.900 --> 00:32:51.400 the things getting certified through a rigorous 00:32:51.400 --> 00:32:55.299 program does is it lets the corporate buyer Not 00:32:55.299 --> 00:32:57.500 even look at that. I don't have to sort out, 00:32:57.539 --> 00:33:00.440 I don't have to verify veteran ownership and 00:33:00.440 --> 00:33:02.799 operation of the business. That's been done. 00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:05.940 Now let's focus on your qualifications. Can you 00:33:05.940 --> 00:33:09.180 really do the job? Well, we certainly appreciate 00:33:09.180 --> 00:33:12.680 the time that Bill Elmore gave to us on Veterans 00:33:12.680 --> 00:33:16.640 Radio, really outlining the history of the... 00:33:17.069 --> 00:33:20.529 veteran -owned business space, how it came about, 00:33:20.589 --> 00:33:23.049 where it might be going, and why it's so important, 00:33:23.410 --> 00:33:27.250 and we really appreciate his time. You can listen 00:33:27.250 --> 00:33:31.309 to these veteran radio podcasts on a number of 00:33:31.309 --> 00:33:35.150 platforms, all the major ones, such as the rss 00:33:35.150 --> 00:33:42.089 .com feed, also iTunes, YouTube, Reese Across 00:33:42.089 --> 00:33:46.259 America Radio, and many others, so we encourage 00:33:46.259 --> 00:33:49.900 you to do that and appreciate all of your support. 00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:52.920 And I want to thank everybody for listening to 00:33:52.920 --> 00:33:56.380 Veterans Radio today. I am Jim Fossone. It's 00:33:56.380 --> 00:33:58.480 been a pleasure to be your host. I'm a Veterans 00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:01.220 disability lawyer at Legal Help for Veterans, 00:34:01.640 --> 00:34:08.340 and you can reach us at 800 -693 -4800 or legalhelpforveterans 00:34:08.340 --> 00:34:11.539 .com on the web. You can follow Veterans Radio 00:34:11.539 --> 00:34:14.849 on Facebook, and listen to its podcasts and internet 00:34:14.849 --> 00:34:19.429 radio shows by visiting us at veteransradio .org. 00:34:19.530 --> 00:34:22.949 That's veteransradio .org. We would again want 00:34:22.949 --> 00:34:25.929 to thank our national sponsors, the National 00:34:25.929 --> 00:34:29.889 Veterans Business Development Council, nvbdc 00:34:29.889 --> 00:34:34.949 .org. Legal Help for Veterans, a veterans disability 00:34:34.949 --> 00:34:39.030 law firm with a national practice before the 00:34:39.030 --> 00:34:42.679 VA. It can help you on your claims and your appeals. 00:34:43.780 --> 00:34:46.960 It can be reached at legalhelpforveterans .com 00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:54.380 or 1 -800 -693 -4800. And PuroClean, a leader 00:34:54.380 --> 00:34:58.599 in property emergency services. 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