WEBVTT 00:00:05.160 --> 00:00:08.980 All across America and around the world, this 00:00:08.980 --> 00:00:15.119 is Veterans Radio. This is Veterans Radio. Good 00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:18.739 day. I'm Jim Fausone. I'm the Officer of the Deck 00:00:18.739 --> 00:00:21.179 today here on Veterans Radio and thanks for joining 00:00:21.179 --> 00:00:24.010 us. We've got some interesting stories for you. 00:00:24.329 --> 00:00:26.190 We always want to remind you, you can find more 00:00:26.190 --> 00:00:29.609 about Veterans Radio at its Facebook site or 00:00:29.609 --> 00:00:32.810 at the web, veteransradio .org, where we're on 00:00:32.810 --> 00:00:35.990 the web 24 -7. You can find a lot of our podcasts 00:00:35.990 --> 00:00:39.369 there as well. We post new ones every Tuesday, 00:00:39.530 --> 00:00:43.829 so you can get a new story, a new interview, 00:00:43.990 --> 00:00:46.799 something you didn't know before by going to 00:00:46.799 --> 00:00:49.700 VeteransRadio .org. And before we get started, 00:00:49.759 --> 00:00:53.159 we want to thank our sponsors. First up, we want 00:00:53.159 --> 00:00:55.899 to thank National Veteran Business Development 00:00:55.899 --> 00:01:02.600 Council, NVBDC .org. It was established to certify 00:01:02.600 --> 00:01:05.319 both service -disabled and veteran -owned businesses. 00:01:05.599 --> 00:01:07.560 You'll find out how they can help your business 00:01:07.560 --> 00:01:13.420 by going to NVBDC .org. We want to thank Legal 00:01:13.420 --> 00:01:17.359 Help for Veterans. Legal Help for Veterans fights 00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:20.219 for veterans disability rights all across the 00:01:20.219 --> 00:01:26.519 nation. You can reach them at 800 -693 -4800 00:01:26.519 --> 00:01:32.579 or on the web at legalhelpforveterans .com. And 00:01:32.579 --> 00:01:36.700 finally, PuroClean. PuroClean is the paramedics 00:01:36.700 --> 00:01:39.079 of property damage. It provides water damage 00:01:39.079 --> 00:01:42.480 remediation, flood water removal, fire and smoke 00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:46.200 damage remediation, mold removal, biohazard cleanup. 00:01:47.079 --> 00:01:51.480 It also has a focus on veteran franchisees. You 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:54.359 can learn more about them by going to PuroClean 00:01:54.359 --> 00:01:59.420 .com. We're talking to a Dr. Kevin Banky today. 00:02:00.019 --> 00:02:04.939 He's involved in a significant study about cannabis 00:02:04.939 --> 00:02:10.379 and CBD used by veterans and its impact and possible, 00:02:10.379 --> 00:02:16.939 you know, focus as a therapy for chronic pain. 00:02:17.159 --> 00:02:18.800 I think you're gonna find this interesting, and 00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:21.500 after we got done, he said we were talking about 00:02:21.500 --> 00:02:25.500 the VA's current position, and he directed me 00:02:25.500 --> 00:02:29.639 to a new public health announcement that VA put 00:02:29.639 --> 00:02:32.639 out that I wanted to mention at least part of 00:02:32.639 --> 00:02:35.620 this to you, some things that veterans should 00:02:35.620 --> 00:02:40.069 know about marijuana and the VA. It's now their 00:02:40.069 --> 00:02:42.949 position that veterans will not be denied VA 00:02:42.949 --> 00:02:45.930 benefits because of marijuana use, and they're 00:02:45.930 --> 00:02:48.310 encouraged to discuss marijuana use with their 00:02:48.310 --> 00:02:53.169 VA providers. However, VA clinicians cannot recommend 00:02:53.169 --> 00:02:57.330 medical marijuana or prescriptions for medical 00:02:57.330 --> 00:03:02.310 marijuana, and VA pharmacies may not fill prescriptions 00:03:02.310 --> 00:03:07.650 or pay for medical marijuana. But there is VA 00:03:07.650 --> 00:03:11.830 research going down on the marijuana benefits 00:03:11.830 --> 00:03:15.550 and risks, potential for abuse and under regulatory 00:03:15.550 --> 00:03:19.349 approval. And it should also be pointed out that 00:03:19.349 --> 00:03:21.870 the use or possession of marijuana is prohibited 00:03:21.870 --> 00:03:25.409 at all VA medical centers, locations, and grounds. 00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:29.819 So when you're on the VA grounds, it's controlled 00:03:29.819 --> 00:03:32.800 by federal law, not your state law, and therefore 00:03:32.800 --> 00:03:35.139 not allowed in any of the states, even though 00:03:35.139 --> 00:03:39.000 states, over half of them now, authorize medical 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:42.919 or recreational marijuana. So kind of with that 00:03:42.919 --> 00:03:46.620 opening, we're gonna hear from Dr. Kevin Banke 00:03:46.620 --> 00:03:49.360 about the interesting research that's being done 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:54.080 that maybe will put a little more... emphasis 00:03:54.080 --> 00:03:57.639 on, hey, this ought to be something VA can prescribe 00:03:57.639 --> 00:04:01.659 and regulate on a going forward basis. We want 00:04:01.659 --> 00:04:06.560 to welcome to Veterans Radio today Dr. Kevin 00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:11.680 Benke. He is working in an area that's of all 00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:13.939 interest to veterans. I get this all the time 00:04:13.939 --> 00:04:17.259 from folks. He's looking into medical cannabis. 00:04:18.579 --> 00:04:21.660 Kevin, welcome to Veterans Radio. Thanks so much 00:04:21.660 --> 00:04:23.279 for having me. I'm delighted to be with y 'all 00:04:23.279 --> 00:04:26.740 today. Well, you received your PhD from the University 00:04:26.740 --> 00:04:29.319 of Michigan, you are an assistant professor of 00:04:29.319 --> 00:04:33.100 anesthesiology at the university, and you are 00:04:33.100 --> 00:04:36.279 the director of the Michigan, is it the psychedelic 00:04:36.279 --> 00:04:39.180 center? Associate director of the psychedelic 00:04:39.180 --> 00:04:43.680 center, yeah. We gave you a promotion. Can't 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:46.399 get you the money, but we at least can give you 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:51.329 the wrong title. Part of the reason we reached 00:04:51.329 --> 00:04:54.889 out is because there is a study going on called 00:04:54.889 --> 00:05:00.470 MI Vets Can Study looking into the whole issue 00:05:00.470 --> 00:05:04.029 of chronic pain for veterans and whether or not 00:05:04.029 --> 00:05:08.829 cannabis can be part of the tool and the tool 00:05:08.829 --> 00:05:15.490 belt used by medical providers to help veterans 00:05:15.490 --> 00:05:20.720 in this area. Talk to us a little bit more about 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:25.100 what this project is all about. Yeah, absolutely. 00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:29.480 So this project is funded through the state of 00:05:29.480 --> 00:05:33.639 Michigan. So back in 2018, when the adult use 00:05:33.639 --> 00:05:36.500 cannabis law passed in the state of Michigan, 00:05:38.420 --> 00:05:47.259 the law set aside money for institutions to do 00:05:47.259 --> 00:05:50.800 clinical trials specifically to see if cannabis 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:55.100 could be helpful for treating medical symptoms 00:05:55.100 --> 00:05:58.759 or conditions that affected veterans and that 00:05:58.759 --> 00:06:03.839 were related to suicidality. And this is because, 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:08.939 you know, veterans have many health issues such 00:06:08.939 --> 00:06:14.040 as pain, post traumatic stress disorder, many 00:06:14.040 --> 00:06:18.019 things that relate to that service that they 00:06:18.019 --> 00:06:23.279 did for our country. And so this money was put 00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:28.339 aside to really see, is cannabis helpful? When 00:06:28.339 --> 00:06:33.959 is it helpful? And can it be useful in the medical 00:06:33.959 --> 00:06:37.720 context for veterans specifically? And so what 00:06:37.720 --> 00:06:40.899 our project is doing is we're focused in on chronic 00:06:40.899 --> 00:06:45.240 pain. because this is so prevalent among veterans 00:06:45.240 --> 00:06:49.100 and we are doing two separate clinical trials. 00:06:49.800 --> 00:06:53.560 One of them is focused on cannabidiol or CBD. 00:06:55.180 --> 00:07:01.860 CBD is a compound that there's a lot of excitement 00:07:01.860 --> 00:07:06.139 about because it doesn't get you high and it 00:07:06.139 --> 00:07:09.800 has no abuse or addiction potential and it tends 00:07:09.800 --> 00:07:12.579 to be very, very safe. So we want to see if this 00:07:12.579 --> 00:07:16.019 is helpful for pain symptoms. So in this first 00:07:16.019 --> 00:07:22.800 study, people can receive either CBD or placebo 00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:27.339 that they can flexibly dose themselves for four 00:07:27.339 --> 00:07:34.100 weeks. And we ship study medication to their 00:07:34.100 --> 00:07:37.040 homes after they screen through the study and 00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:39.550 go through all those things. and then they send 00:07:39.550 --> 00:07:42.110 it back to us after taking it for four weeks. 00:07:43.170 --> 00:07:46.670 In the second study, which is called CanCoach, 00:07:46.889 --> 00:07:49.810 short for cannabis coaching, participants will 00:07:49.810 --> 00:07:53.949 meet one -on -one with a trained cannabis coach. 00:07:54.029 --> 00:07:56.589 So these are people who have their master's of 00:07:56.589 --> 00:08:02.069 social work degree. They have been trained on 00:08:02.069 --> 00:08:04.829 the scientific evidence around cannabis and pain, 00:08:04.889 --> 00:08:09.339 its effects. on different pain symptoms, the 00:08:09.339 --> 00:08:12.439 effects of things like CBD versus THC, the differences 00:08:12.439 --> 00:08:18.279 between smoking, vaping, eating, all this information. 00:08:18.879 --> 00:08:23.620 And these coaches work one -on -one with the 00:08:23.620 --> 00:08:28.180 study participant to help them optimize their 00:08:28.180 --> 00:08:31.769 use of cannabis for pain symptoms. So. the products 00:08:31.769 --> 00:08:34.230 that people will use in this coaching intervention, 00:08:34.230 --> 00:08:37.429 they will get themselves from, you know, state 00:08:37.429 --> 00:08:41.029 licensed dispensers. But then they work with 00:08:41.029 --> 00:08:43.169 that coach one -on -one to be like, OK, gosh, 00:08:43.309 --> 00:08:46.649 like I used an edible one time and I slept really 00:08:46.649 --> 00:08:51.690 well, but then I woke up feeling foggy and I 00:08:51.690 --> 00:08:54.289 was affected the next day. So I want that sleep 00:08:54.289 --> 00:08:56.210 effect because I know that helps my pain, but 00:08:56.210 --> 00:08:59.370 I really don't want to be impaired the next day. 00:08:59.429 --> 00:09:02.120 What do I do? And so the coach will work with 00:09:02.120 --> 00:09:06.559 them in this sort of one -on -one context over 00:09:06.559 --> 00:09:11.299 four individualized treatment sessions to help 00:09:11.299 --> 00:09:16.539 them refine that use to maximize benefit and 00:09:16.539 --> 00:09:20.259 minimize harm associated with cannabis and that 00:09:20.259 --> 00:09:23.419 cannabis use for chronic pain. We're going to 00:09:23.419 --> 00:09:25.399 back up and talk about some things you're talking 00:09:25.399 --> 00:09:27.769 about, but I kind of want to... Highlight for 00:09:27.769 --> 00:09:30.870 folks, and we're talking to Dr. Kevin Bohenke, 00:09:31.409 --> 00:09:33.929 who is the assistant professor in the Department 00:09:33.929 --> 00:09:37.389 of Anesthesiology. He's also the associate director 00:09:37.389 --> 00:09:39.870 of the Michigan Psychedelic Center, and he's 00:09:39.870 --> 00:09:44.549 involved in this MiVetsCan studies being funded 00:09:44.549 --> 00:09:49.009 by the state of Michigan, where marijuana is 00:09:49.009 --> 00:09:51.629 legal both for medical and recreational use. 00:09:52.490 --> 00:09:56.889 But CBD, tell us how CBD is regulated as compared 00:09:56.889 --> 00:10:03.690 to marijuana or cannabis. Yeah, so CBD is treated 00:10:03.690 --> 00:10:07.789 a little bit differently. So products that have 00:10:07.789 --> 00:10:13.809 less than 0 .3 % THC, so THC or delta -9 tetrahydrogen 00:10:13.809 --> 00:10:17.730 or cannabinol, is the main intoxicating component 00:10:17.730 --> 00:10:21.629 in cannabis. If they have more than 0 .3 % THC, 00:10:22.330 --> 00:10:26.230 They're considered marijuana under federal law. 00:10:26.549 --> 00:10:30.669 They're considered to be illegal and schedule 00:10:30.669 --> 00:10:33.350 one product. So under the Federal Controlled 00:10:33.350 --> 00:10:36.850 Substances Act, any substance that is schedule 00:10:36.850 --> 00:10:39.509 one has no accepted medical purpose and a high 00:10:39.509 --> 00:10:43.909 potential for abuse or misuse. And so it's not 00:10:43.909 --> 00:10:47.269 used therapeutically. So those products that 00:10:47.269 --> 00:10:50.740 are above that 0 .3 % THC threshold, Schedule 00:10:50.740 --> 00:10:54.179 1, illegal, criminalized, technically no therapeutic 00:10:54.179 --> 00:10:57.120 benefit according to federal law. If they have 00:10:57.120 --> 00:11:03.960 less than 0 .3 % THC, then they are de -scheduled 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:06.039 under the Controlled Substances Act. So they're 00:11:06.039 --> 00:11:09.039 not regulated under it. There's no criminal penalties 00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:11.860 for use. And so CBD products that have less than 00:11:11.860 --> 00:11:15.179 0 .3 % THC, like the one we're using for this 00:11:15.179 --> 00:11:22.179 study, are de -scheduled. So that's the distinction. 00:11:22.779 --> 00:11:27.480 So that 0 .3 % THC is the distinction between 00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:32.460 a illegal criminalized product and a descheduled 00:11:32.460 --> 00:11:37.620 legal product. What you're trying to do with 00:11:37.620 --> 00:11:40.799 these studies is put some rigor around, some 00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:46.419 clinical trial work around, hey, does CBD help? 00:11:47.639 --> 00:11:52.720 Hey, does... cannabis help and put a little bit 00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:57.220 more of scientific rigor around it rather than 00:11:57.220 --> 00:12:01.139 just sort of anecdotal, hey, my buddy down at 00:12:01.139 --> 00:12:04.460 the post told me he's taking it and it's help 00:12:04.460 --> 00:12:06.500 and I'm gonna take it. So that's what you're 00:12:06.500 --> 00:12:09.700 trying to get to is a more rigorous scientific 00:12:09.700 --> 00:12:13.059 approach, I assume. Yep, that is exactly what 00:12:13.059 --> 00:12:17.460 we're doing. We want to do high quality scientific 00:12:17.460 --> 00:12:20.259 studies to say, is this something that's helpful? 00:12:20.419 --> 00:12:25.460 Can we add it to, as you said, to the treatment 00:12:25.460 --> 00:12:29.139 toolbox as something that might help people with 00:12:29.139 --> 00:12:34.299 pain? And in Michigan, when they passed the law 00:12:34.299 --> 00:12:37.019 about recreational, I think it was recreational 00:12:37.019 --> 00:12:39.179 marijuana, they said, hey, we're going to take 00:12:39.179 --> 00:12:41.990 some of the tax dollars we... we generate from 00:12:41.990 --> 00:12:44.350 this and we're going to put it into research. 00:12:44.769 --> 00:12:47.149 And that's where this study gets funded from. 00:12:47.330 --> 00:12:49.009 And I point this out because we're at a point 00:12:49.009 --> 00:12:51.389 in time when there's all this confusion about 00:12:51.389 --> 00:12:55.029 VA funding and federal funding for research projects. 00:12:55.490 --> 00:12:59.590 This project and these two studies, both CBD 00:12:59.590 --> 00:13:03.690 CARE and CAN Coach, they're not impacted by all 00:13:03.690 --> 00:13:05.730 that federal chaos that's going on, correct? 00:13:06.570 --> 00:13:08.549 That is correct. They're funded by the state, 00:13:08.549 --> 00:13:12.570 so we have had no issues. um with these studies. 00:13:14.289 --> 00:13:17.250 Tell us a little bit about you know your mindset 00:13:17.250 --> 00:13:20.590 as you went into this and kind of maybe where 00:13:20.590 --> 00:13:25.370 you're at or thinking today as a research scientist. 00:13:27.250 --> 00:13:30.190 Yeah so going into this project something that 00:13:30.190 --> 00:13:32.529 was super important to me and the other folks 00:13:32.529 --> 00:13:36.049 on the team was let's make sure that we're doing 00:13:36.049 --> 00:13:39.830 work that is relevant and meaningful to veterans 00:13:39.830 --> 00:13:43.789 with pain. So we went about that in a few different 00:13:43.789 --> 00:13:47.029 ways. One, we obviously looked at the scientific 00:13:47.029 --> 00:13:49.549 literature to say, what are the types of studies 00:13:49.549 --> 00:13:51.470 that have been done and what hadn't been done? 00:13:51.950 --> 00:13:54.850 And we noticed that the scientific literature 00:13:54.850 --> 00:13:58.570 on CBD was extremely lacking. And so that was 00:13:58.570 --> 00:14:01.470 a really strong place scientifically to look. 00:14:01.909 --> 00:14:06.210 Then we went and spoke to different veteran organizations 00:14:06.210 --> 00:14:09.740 like the Ann Arbor VA. um has their research 00:14:09.740 --> 00:14:12.600 engagement council and so we went and presented 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:15.059 our ideas to them and said what do you think 00:14:15.059 --> 00:14:18.360 is this something that might be helpful and so 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:21.799 many folks who we spoke to said we want to know 00:14:21.799 --> 00:14:24.580 about CBD it doesn't get you high we don't want 00:14:24.580 --> 00:14:28.600 to have issues with drug testing from our employers 00:14:28.600 --> 00:14:32.639 like we want something that helps our pain and 00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:35.399 allows us to function so we knew that that was 00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:39.220 a really strong idea that had support and buy 00:14:39.220 --> 00:14:41.779 -in from these veterans groups that we talked 00:14:41.779 --> 00:14:45.639 to. For the coaching intervention, similarly, 00:14:46.139 --> 00:14:50.440 we presented this idea, which as a researcher, 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:53.379 I and the folks on my team really liked because 00:14:53.379 --> 00:14:58.299 we thought this will allow us to test a couple 00:14:58.299 --> 00:15:01.340 things. One, can we help people use their cannabis 00:15:01.340 --> 00:15:05.379 more skillfully? And two, How do we make sure 00:15:05.379 --> 00:15:09.059 that we allow people to use the vast variety 00:15:09.059 --> 00:15:12.659 of cannabis products that are available and legal 00:15:12.659 --> 00:15:16.480 in the Michigan marketplace and not constrain 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:20.200 them to only being able to use a single product, 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:23.360 which is what you typically have to do when people 00:15:23.360 --> 00:15:26.500 are enrolled in a clinical trial for a study 00:15:26.500 --> 00:15:28.419 medication, they can pretty much only use that 00:15:28.419 --> 00:15:30.539 study medication. With this coaching approach, 00:15:30.940 --> 00:15:34.750 people can purchase and use like a topical product, 00:15:34.889 --> 00:15:38.289 the tincture and a vaporizer all within their 00:15:38.289 --> 00:15:41.289 treatment regimen. We work with them no matter 00:15:41.289 --> 00:15:44.289 where they're at and help them optimize that 00:15:44.289 --> 00:15:47.529 use. So we like that scientifically because it 00:15:47.529 --> 00:15:52.009 provides more flexibility. The veterans we talked 00:15:52.009 --> 00:15:56.330 to really liked that because they can then after 00:15:56.330 --> 00:15:58.730 the study is done, they have the skills that 00:15:58.730 --> 00:16:04.110 they need to operate within the legal climate 00:16:04.110 --> 00:16:07.230 of having these medical and adult use dispensaries 00:16:07.230 --> 00:16:09.269 where they can go buy these products. And they've 00:16:09.269 --> 00:16:11.929 gotten the support that they need that oftentimes 00:16:11.929 --> 00:16:15.190 they can't get from a physician either at the 00:16:15.190 --> 00:16:19.830 VA or outside of the VA because most doctors 00:16:19.830 --> 00:16:23.210 don't get any education about cannabis in medical 00:16:23.210 --> 00:16:26.289 school. Yeah, I'm going to get to this a little 00:16:26.289 --> 00:16:28.929 bit more, but I want to pick up on your you know, 00:16:29.450 --> 00:16:32.610 the issue about legality and these numbers change, 00:16:32.629 --> 00:16:36.809 but it's something like 39 of the 50 states in 00:16:36.809 --> 00:16:39.990 the country allow it for medical use, and 24 00:16:39.990 --> 00:16:42.710 states, so almost half of them, allow it for 00:16:42.710 --> 00:16:47.230 recreational use. But it's still illegal, still 00:16:47.230 --> 00:16:50.370 schedule one drug on the federal registry, although 00:16:50.370 --> 00:16:55.649 that may change, who knows. But because of that, 00:16:55.669 --> 00:16:57.710 and because this is sort of a new trend, as you 00:16:57.710 --> 00:17:01.600 say, This isn't part of medical training for 00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:04.160 doctors, primary care physicians, if you will, 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:09.740 or pain physicians when they go through medical 00:17:09.740 --> 00:17:14.839 school. Can you talk a little bit about will 00:17:14.839 --> 00:17:17.500 these studies, and maybe it's about how the coach 00:17:17.500 --> 00:17:22.339 gets certified, deal with issues like? dosage, 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:26.039 efficacy, quality, delivery systems. I mean, 00:17:26.380 --> 00:17:29.559 it's more complicated than going to your local 00:17:29.559 --> 00:17:32.220 drug store and just getting the prescribed pills 00:17:32.220 --> 00:17:34.859 over the counter. There's a heck of a lot of 00:17:34.859 --> 00:17:38.259 variety today. And because it isn't so regulated, 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:41.680 how do you take that into account in the CanCoach 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:46.220 program? Yeah, so that's all those reasons that 00:17:46.220 --> 00:17:49.180 you just mentioned are exactly why we developed 00:17:49.180 --> 00:17:54.359 this. because we know that that's the exact information 00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:57.940 that people need to use this information skillfully 00:17:57.940 --> 00:18:03.079 and to use cannabis as a useful medication. So 00:18:03.079 --> 00:18:06.480 we scoured the scientific literature and there 00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:09.640 have been studies looking at what happens if 00:18:09.640 --> 00:18:13.759 people smoke or they eat or they use a tincture 00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:16.740 topical product. How quickly does it take effect? 00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:19.480 How long does it last? What are the effects of 00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:25.099 CBD versus THC in these acute dosing situations? 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:27.539 What kind of doses have been used in the scientific 00:18:27.539 --> 00:18:31.539 literature? We compiled that all together. We 00:18:31.539 --> 00:18:35.960 digested that all into easily deliverable information, 00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:38.859 both in terms of the handouts that we give to 00:18:38.859 --> 00:18:43.299 participants, as well as in this manual that 00:18:43.299 --> 00:18:47.079 we developed for this intervention. So participants 00:18:47.079 --> 00:18:49.180 will come into this study. They can ask the questions 00:18:49.180 --> 00:18:52.819 they need to ask. We also have these really well 00:18:52.819 --> 00:18:55.259 -crafted materials so they can walk away feeling 00:18:55.259 --> 00:18:59.059 very comfortable. But what they're doing is informed 00:18:59.059 --> 00:19:02.900 by the best available scientific evidence around 00:19:02.900 --> 00:19:05.079 the effects of these compounds and how they might 00:19:05.079 --> 00:19:08.140 be affecting their bodies, as well as how the 00:19:08.140 --> 00:19:11.099 different delivery systems might affect them 00:19:11.099 --> 00:19:14.480 and their unique situation. And when you generally 00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:16.660 are talking medications, you're also worrying 00:19:16.660 --> 00:19:20.420 about interactions between, oh, the heart doctor 00:19:20.420 --> 00:19:23.259 gave me this, and my doctor for my gout gave 00:19:23.259 --> 00:19:26.160 me that, and my headache doctor gave me that. 00:19:27.720 --> 00:19:30.940 Sometimes we have cross, I'm not sure what the 00:19:30.940 --> 00:19:34.380 right medical term is, but I'll call it cross 00:19:34.380 --> 00:19:38.450 -contamination problems. these things working 00:19:38.450 --> 00:19:42.130 against each other, how is that taken into account 00:19:42.130 --> 00:19:44.450 to make sure that you're, when you're doing your 00:19:44.450 --> 00:19:46.529 rigorous study here, you're not really seeing 00:19:46.529 --> 00:19:50.390 the impact of, well, it's not the CBD or the 00:19:50.390 --> 00:19:54.390 cannabis, it's that plus something else? Yeah, 00:19:54.470 --> 00:19:57.329 this is a great question. So safety is our top 00:19:57.329 --> 00:20:00.250 priority in these studies. So for the CBD study, 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:03.059 We're using a product that has been approved 00:20:03.059 --> 00:20:06.299 by the FDA for other medical indications. It's 00:20:06.299 --> 00:20:09.680 called Epidiolex. It contains plant -derived 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:14.839 CBD. And so that has been tested and is actually 00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:20.220 available commercially for medical conditions 00:20:20.220 --> 00:20:24.740 other than pain. So for example, you could go 00:20:24.740 --> 00:20:27.420 to your physician and say, hey, I want this off 00:20:27.420 --> 00:20:30.390 -label. prescription for Epidiolex. And if they 00:20:30.390 --> 00:20:32.349 think that it would be helpful for you, you could 00:20:32.349 --> 00:20:34.710 actually get it. So there's that side of things 00:20:34.710 --> 00:20:38.349 on the purity of the product that we're using 00:20:38.349 --> 00:20:41.410 for the CBD study. And because it's been tested, 00:20:41.450 --> 00:20:43.990 it's gone through the whole FDA approval process. 00:20:44.410 --> 00:20:48.390 We know a good deal about what kind of interactions 00:20:48.390 --> 00:20:54.069 this CBD product has. And it's mostly with anticonvulsant. 00:20:54.109 --> 00:20:58.529 medications. That's what showed up in those clinical 00:20:58.529 --> 00:21:01.750 trials. There might be some other interactions 00:21:01.750 --> 00:21:07.950 that continue to show up, but the FDA reviewed 00:21:07.950 --> 00:21:13.990 this. We also have our own institutional review 00:21:13.990 --> 00:21:17.829 board or IRB, and they look at studies like this 00:21:17.829 --> 00:21:21.849 and they say, will this be safe? And if something 00:21:21.849 --> 00:21:24.829 happens for a study participant where there's 00:21:24.829 --> 00:21:28.130 a safety issue, how will you protect that person 00:21:28.130 --> 00:21:30.750 and make sure they get what they need? So, you 00:21:30.750 --> 00:21:34.190 know, we do phone calls with our study participants. 00:21:35.190 --> 00:21:40.049 They can enter any side effects that they experience 00:21:40.049 --> 00:21:43.829 into their study app, and we monitor these very 00:21:43.829 --> 00:21:47.259 closely. as well. So there's these multiple different 00:21:47.259 --> 00:21:50.759 systems that we use to ensure participant safety. 00:21:51.700 --> 00:21:53.980 In the coaching intervention, because we're not 00:21:53.980 --> 00:21:58.420 giving people study medication directly, they're 00:21:58.420 --> 00:22:02.559 purchasing their own cannabis products from cannabis 00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:08.539 dispensers. If they bring up a specific medication 00:22:08.539 --> 00:22:13.329 to us, we can go and look at it, but we also 00:22:13.329 --> 00:22:17.509 encourage people to talk to their clinicians 00:22:17.509 --> 00:22:23.150 to say, is there a potential interaction with 00:22:23.150 --> 00:22:26.309 some of these medications that you might be taking 00:22:26.309 --> 00:22:30.630 with cannabis? Oftentimes, what we see in the 00:22:30.630 --> 00:22:32.890 scientific literature is that there's a lot of 00:22:32.890 --> 00:22:36.460 theoretical interactions. There's a few known 00:22:36.460 --> 00:22:39.180 interactions, but a lot of times what happens 00:22:39.180 --> 00:22:41.640 is when people add cannabis into their treatment 00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:45.039 regimen, it is a, you watch, you're extremely 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:49.180 careful with your dosing. So you do a really 00:22:49.180 --> 00:22:53.039 like a start low, go slow situation. And if you 00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:56.500 notice anything that is concerning, then. You 00:22:56.500 --> 00:22:58.720 stop what you're doing, you talk to a clinician, 00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:01.900 and you make sure that you're keeping yourself 00:23:01.900 --> 00:23:04.859 safe. You mentioned something that I want to 00:23:04.859 --> 00:23:07.920 highlight, which is if you're out there, veterans, 00:23:08.180 --> 00:23:10.640 using recreational cannabis because you're in 00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:15.619 one of those 24 states or in even more medical 00:23:15.619 --> 00:23:19.119 cannabis, you should be having a discussion with 00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:21.380 your primary care physician about it so that 00:23:21.380 --> 00:23:24.410 they know that you're using that as well. they 00:23:24.410 --> 00:23:27.869 can look at issues of possible drug interactions. 00:23:29.009 --> 00:23:30.950 But you can't really have that conversation with 00:23:30.950 --> 00:23:34.289 the VA because it's not allowed to be prescribed 00:23:34.289 --> 00:23:40.390 or used in the VA. So make sure your, as the 00:23:40.390 --> 00:23:43.980 good doctor says here, start low, go slow. But 00:23:43.980 --> 00:23:46.460 have that conversation. Don't think you should 00:23:46.460 --> 00:23:49.319 do it all on your own. And that's why we're doing 00:23:49.319 --> 00:23:52.460 these clinical trials, is to try to give better 00:23:52.460 --> 00:23:56.339 information to people. Let me ask about clinical 00:23:56.339 --> 00:24:00.519 trials, Dr. Bohanke, are all about size, right? 00:24:01.059 --> 00:24:04.119 So talk to us about the size of the clinical 00:24:04.119 --> 00:24:08.339 trial for CBD care and for CanCoach. Yeah, so 00:24:08.339 --> 00:24:12.779 these are very large. clinical trials, each one 00:24:12.779 --> 00:24:17.400 we're recruiting 468 individuals into. So this 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:21.380 is the size of study, very similar to some of 00:24:21.380 --> 00:24:25.480 the large, you know, pain drug studies that are 00:24:25.480 --> 00:24:29.240 done by pharmaceutical companies. So we are extremely 00:24:29.240 --> 00:24:32.960 lucky and grateful to have this opportunity to 00:24:32.960 --> 00:24:36.059 do studies like this, that, you know, they wouldn't 00:24:36.059 --> 00:24:40.319 be possible without the advocacy of veterans 00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:43.339 and other groups to get this money put aside 00:24:43.339 --> 00:24:49.079 in the law that passed legalizing adult use cannabis. 00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:52.079 So I'm just really grateful for that forethought 00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:56.279 to be able to fund these sorts of well -powered 00:24:56.279 --> 00:25:01.220 studies that frankly have not been possible in 00:25:01.220 --> 00:25:04.680 a lot of different situations, both because of 00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:10.160 cannabis legality and because it's the National 00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:14.019 Institutes of Health and other large funding 00:25:14.019 --> 00:25:17.079 bodies have historically kind of stayed away 00:25:17.079 --> 00:25:20.539 from funding this kind of research. That is definitely 00:25:20.539 --> 00:25:23.920 changing now. I'm glad to say, although with 00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:28.200 this current situation, there's a lot more uncertainty 00:25:28.200 --> 00:25:33.119 now with relation to that. But for example, my 00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:36.160 colleagues and I are doing a separate study related 00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:39.430 to CBD that is funded through the National Institutes 00:25:39.430 --> 00:25:42.390 of Health. Some of these studies happening in 00:25:42.390 --> 00:25:45.430 a different way now than was even possible like 00:25:45.430 --> 00:25:48.029 10 years ago. So you have a large study group. 00:25:48.230 --> 00:25:50.869 You're recruiting 468 individuals into each. 00:25:51.329 --> 00:25:53.990 What's the timing on this? Does this take a year 00:25:53.990 --> 00:25:56.769 or five years? What's the anticipated timing? 00:25:57.630 --> 00:25:59.890 Yeah, we anticipate it will take at least a couple 00:25:59.890 --> 00:26:04.329 more years. So and both of these studies are 00:26:04.329 --> 00:26:08.519 available to uh veterans in any of these states 00:26:08.519 --> 00:26:12.980 with legal adult use cannabis um and because 00:26:12.980 --> 00:26:17.119 they're all done via telemedicine you know like 00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:20.039 I said we can for people in CBD care we can ship 00:26:20.039 --> 00:26:23.759 study medication uh to California or to Maine 00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:31.359 um for can coach like those study sessions uh 00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:36.460 happen via you know a HIPAA compliant video platform. 00:26:36.519 --> 00:26:40.220 So it's something that you can meet with the 00:26:40.220 --> 00:26:45.160 coaches in the comfort of your own home. So yeah, 00:26:45.579 --> 00:26:48.039 it means that we're hoping to have a wide reach 00:26:48.039 --> 00:26:51.480 with these studies. And that's really important. 00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:55.859 We hear this and we hear this out of the VA research 00:26:55.859 --> 00:26:59.319 when we talk to their researchers about You know, 00:26:59.539 --> 00:27:03.960 veterans are of all types of races and ethnicities 00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:08.740 and ages, genders. You have to have a big enough 00:27:08.740 --> 00:27:10.579 study that you can say, well, this is what the 00:27:10.579 --> 00:27:14.079 impact is to female veterans as compared to male 00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:18.180 veterans and split that maybe into African American 00:27:18.180 --> 00:27:20.299 veterans versus Hispanic. I mean, you're trying 00:27:20.299 --> 00:27:23.380 to take all of that demographic stuff and figure 00:27:23.380 --> 00:27:26.259 it out, right? Yeah, I mean, we're doing our 00:27:26.259 --> 00:27:29.319 best to account for all those things. That's 00:27:29.319 --> 00:27:33.380 why we've had such a strong, you know, engagement 00:27:33.380 --> 00:27:37.099 component with veteran groups at each stage of 00:27:37.099 --> 00:27:40.779 the way, and are hoping to continue that throughout 00:27:40.779 --> 00:27:44.440 this study. And also knowing that like, even 00:27:44.440 --> 00:27:48.119 though these are two large studies, it's important 00:27:48.119 --> 00:27:51.339 to, you know, have these results looked at by 00:27:51.339 --> 00:27:54.019 other teams and other investigators and ideally 00:27:54.019 --> 00:27:59.589 have large other studies going by other teams 00:27:59.589 --> 00:28:02.269 and other sites too to see if these results hold 00:28:02.269 --> 00:28:05.750 up because even though these again are large 00:28:05.750 --> 00:28:11.009 and well -designed studies, one study is never 00:28:11.009 --> 00:28:17.710 definitive. I can tell you and I can tell our 00:28:17.710 --> 00:28:21.069 audience what the last paragraph of your report 00:28:21.069 --> 00:28:24.750 is going to say. It's gonna say further research 00:28:24.750 --> 00:28:31.589 is still necessary Hey, I want to let our veteran 00:28:31.589 --> 00:28:35.250 radio listeners know how they can learn more 00:28:35.250 --> 00:28:37.990 about this and if you're a veteran or if you're 00:28:37.990 --> 00:28:40.769 Friend of a veteran you say hey, I think my my 00:28:40.769 --> 00:28:42.650 friend ought to get involved in this they can 00:28:42.650 --> 00:28:48.990 how do I enroll? Go to the website. Am I? vetscan 00:28:48.990 --> 00:28:55.690 .org, m -i -v -e -t -s -can -c -a -n .org, myvetscan 00:28:55.690 --> 00:29:00.529 .org, talks about the study, talks about the 00:29:00.529 --> 00:29:03.529 overview, there's tutorials and resources, but 00:29:03.529 --> 00:29:06.529 there's a big green enroll now button and I assume 00:29:06.529 --> 00:29:09.170 that's how people get themselves involved in 00:29:09.170 --> 00:29:13.009 these things, doctor. Yep, that's exactly right. 00:29:13.470 --> 00:29:16.750 So if you go to the website, you contact the 00:29:16.750 --> 00:29:20.509 study team, you go to the enrollment place, you'll 00:29:20.509 --> 00:29:23.150 be able to talk to one of our wonderful study 00:29:23.150 --> 00:29:25.349 team members who can help walk you through the 00:29:25.349 --> 00:29:29.509 process of, you know, signing up for these studies. 00:29:31.529 --> 00:29:35.069 I will say also before joining one of the clinical 00:29:35.069 --> 00:29:37.670 trials, you know, participants would need to 00:29:37.670 --> 00:29:41.980 join the registrar, which helps them get acclimated 00:29:41.980 --> 00:29:47.539 to the study procedures and the study app. And 00:29:47.539 --> 00:29:50.039 just make sure that they're comfortable with 00:29:50.039 --> 00:29:52.460 the whole situation. Once they're in that, then 00:29:52.460 --> 00:29:57.220 they can participate in one or both of the clinical 00:29:57.220 --> 00:29:59.680 trials, assuming that they meet the eligibility 00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:04.880 criteria. And so it's... something we're just 00:30:04.880 --> 00:30:07.640 really hoping that folks will be interested in 00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:11.140 and find useful. So thanks so much for sharing 00:30:11.140 --> 00:30:14.279 out the information about the study. Well, we 00:30:14.279 --> 00:30:18.480 certainly appreciate Kevin Buchenke, PhD, principal 00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:21.119 investigator on these studies, spending some 00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:24.640 time today with Veterans Radio to talk about 00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:27.670 these studies. Sort of the two different natures 00:30:27.670 --> 00:30:31.190 of them a CBD care versus can coach very interesting 00:30:31.190 --> 00:30:34.109 can coach so we would hope people all around 00:30:34.109 --> 00:30:37.069 the country will go to the website and enroll 00:30:37.069 --> 00:30:41.109 because Your involvement as a veteran will help 00:30:41.109 --> 00:30:44.950 others Because this is a large study with rigorous 00:30:44.950 --> 00:30:48.250 detail to it that can ultimately withstand scrutiny 00:30:48.250 --> 00:30:50.869 and be used by others and maybe even the federal 00:30:50.869 --> 00:30:53.549 government of the VA at some time will come around 00:30:53.549 --> 00:30:56.470 on this issue. But Kevin, thanks for the time 00:30:56.470 --> 00:30:58.650 that you've devoted to us today. And we'll be 00:30:58.650 --> 00:31:01.230 back, I guess, in a year or two to find out how 00:31:01.230 --> 00:31:03.589 the results are going. Sounds good, yeah. Would 00:31:03.589 --> 00:31:05.650 be delighted to speak with you anytime. And thanks 00:31:05.650 --> 00:31:08.529 so much for having me, Jim. Lovely speaking with 00:31:08.529 --> 00:31:14.109 you today. That's Dr. Kevin Benke with the University 00:31:14.109 --> 00:31:18.089 of Michigan MI Vets Can study. Very interesting, 00:31:18.109 --> 00:31:20.069 and we'll keep an eye on that and report back 00:31:20.069 --> 00:31:23.049 to you in the future. And I want to thank everybody 00:31:23.049 --> 00:31:25.869 for listening to Veterans Radio today. I am Jim 00:31:25.869 --> 00:31:28.750 Fossone. It's been a pleasure to be your host. 00:31:28.950 --> 00:31:31.569 I'm a veterans disability lawyer at Legal Help 00:31:31.569 --> 00:31:35.529 for Veterans and you can reach us at 800 -693 00:31:35.529 --> 00:31:40.369 -4800 or legalhelpforveterans .com on the web. 00:31:41.069 --> 00:31:43.930 You can follow Veterans Radio on Facebook and 00:31:43.930 --> 00:31:46.869 listen to its podcasts and internet radio shows 00:31:46.869 --> 00:31:51.079 by visiting us at veteransradio .org. That's 00:31:51.079 --> 00:31:54.339 veteransradio .org. We would again want to thank 00:31:54.339 --> 00:31:57.380 our national sponsors, the National Veterans 00:31:57.380 --> 00:32:02.900 Business Development Council, nvbdc .org. Legal 00:32:02.900 --> 00:32:06.299 help for veterans, a veterans disability law 00:32:06.299 --> 00:32:11.380 firm with a national practice before the VA can 00:32:11.380 --> 00:32:15.019 help you on your claims and your appeals. It 00:32:15.019 --> 00:32:18.440 can be reached at legalhelpforveterans .com or 00:32:18.440 --> 00:32:25.779 1 -800 -693 -4800. And PuroClean, a leader in 00:32:25.779 --> 00:32:29.559 property emergency services. It's the paramedics 00:32:29.559 --> 00:32:33.339 of property damage, providing water damage remediation, 00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:36.859 flood water removal, fire and smoke damage remediation, 00:32:37.640 --> 00:32:41.359 mold and biohazard cleanups. You can reach them 00:32:41.359 --> 00:32:49.109 at puroclean .com. or 800 -775 -7876. We also 00:32:49.109 --> 00:32:52.029 want to thank our local sponsors. This would 00:32:52.029 --> 00:32:57.869 include the Charles S. Kettles chapter of the 00:32:57.869 --> 00:33:01.109 Vietnam Veterans of America, that's chapter 310, 00:33:01.470 --> 00:33:06.369 VFW Graf O 'Hara post 423, the American Legion 00:33:06.369 --> 00:33:10.240 Erwin Preskin post 46 in Ann Arbor as well. the 00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:13.140 VA Ann Arbor Health Care System, and certainly 00:33:13.140 --> 00:33:16.240 the National Vietnam Veterans of America Association. 00:33:16.940 --> 00:33:19.559 You can be a sponsor by going to veteransradio 00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:23.940 .org, clicking on the About Us in our sponsors, 00:33:24.099 --> 00:33:27.240 and help us out. Keep this program alive for 00:33:27.240 --> 00:33:31.799 the 21 and 22 years. Keep us going for another 00:33:31.799 --> 00:33:33.000 20. Thank you.