1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:10,640 All across America and around the world, this is Veterans Radio. 2 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:15,920 This is Veterans Radio. 3 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:17,840 Welcome to Veterans Radio. 4 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,520 I am Jim Fausone. 5 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:22,840 I'm the officer of the deck today. 6 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:24,720 We've got some great programs for you. 7 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:29,520 We always want to remind you you can find more about Veterans Radio at its Facebook 8 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:35,240 site or at the web veteransradio.org where we're on the web 24-7. 9 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,360 You can find a lot of our podcasts there as well. 10 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:45,040 We post new ones every Tuesday so you can get a new story, a new interview, something 11 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:49,680 you didn't know before by going to veteransradio.org. 12 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,040 Before we get started, we want to thank our sponsors. 13 00:00:53,040 --> 00:01:00,880 Next up we want to thank National Veteran Business Development Council, NVBDC.org. 14 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:06,560 It was established to certify both service disabled and veteran owned businesses. 15 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:13,080 You'll find out how they can help your business by going to NVBDC.org. 16 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,600 We want to thank Legal Help for Veterans. 17 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:22,120 Legal Help for Veterans fights for veterans disability rights all across the nation. 18 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:33,240 You can reach them at 800-693-4800 or on the web at legalhelpforveterans.com. 19 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,040 And finally, PuroClean. 20 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,680 PuroClean is the paramedics of property damage. 21 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:44,560 It provides water damage remediation, flood water removal, fire and smoke damage remediation, 22 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,000 mold removal, biohazard cleanup. 23 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:52,280 It also has a focus on veteran franchisees. 24 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:56,680 You can learn more about them by going to puroclean.com. 25 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:04,600 Well, it's February, which is always a gloomy month. 26 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,920 But let's put a little information at your disposal. 27 00:02:08,920 --> 00:02:15,040 It is Black History Month, so we're going to do a little focusing on the service and 28 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:19,960 challenges that African Americans face when in the military. 29 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,160 So I think we have two good programs. 30 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:28,240 One is an interview talking about Major General Oliver Dillard, who exceeded everybody's 31 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:35,640 expectations in getting his military career lasting as long as it did in achieving what 32 00:02:35,640 --> 00:02:36,640 he did. 33 00:02:36,640 --> 00:02:44,640 So I think you'll find his meteoric rise and really an incredible career of interest. 34 00:02:44,640 --> 00:02:49,120 But we're also going to talk about some of the challenges that exist. 35 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:57,600 And one of them would be with making sure academic admissions to service academies can 36 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:08,200 reflect our nation that we can have enough African American cadets or midshipment so 37 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:12,960 that 30 years later they can become admirals and generals, right? 38 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:14,680 That's sort of the breeding ground for that. 39 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:20,000 So an interesting dialogue there too, I think you'll find this very interesting. 40 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:26,880 We want to welcome to Veterans Radio today Colonel Stephen P. Perkins, U.S. Army retired. 41 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:30,400 We're going to talk a little bit about his service, but we're also going to talk with 42 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:37,400 him about his intersection with Major General Oliver W. Dillard Sr., who's a pretty impressive 43 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:38,400 figure. 44 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:40,040 I think you'll agree by the time we get done with this. 45 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:42,440 But Colonel, welcome to Veterans Radio. 46 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:43,440 Well, thanks, Jim. 47 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:44,440 I really appreciate it. 48 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:46,240 It's been a while since I've seen you. 49 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:53,240 I guess we first met back in May of 2023 at the VA Clinic dedication, and I was really 50 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:55,960 appreciative of your efforts on that. 51 00:03:55,960 --> 00:04:03,200 Well, again, Major General Dillard, somebody to talk more about and learn more about. 52 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:10,000 But before we get in there, you've had a long military career and Army civilian career 53 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,960 so that our veteran radio listeners kind of know you're a guy who knows what he's talking 54 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:14,960 about. 55 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:19,680 Tell us a little bit about your military and Army civilian career. 56 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:27,200 Yes, I was commissioned out of Cameron University, which is right there by Fort Sill, Oklahoma. 57 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:32,760 And immediately after coming out of the Guard for almost two years as an artillery officer, 58 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,600 I became an infantry officer. 59 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:41,520 Did that for about 10 years, including service with the 82nd Airborne Division and the 25th 60 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:45,920 Infantry Division, and then made the transition to military intelligence. 61 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:54,560 I commanded battalion at Fort Stewart and got a chance to go to Iraq in 2006, 2007. 62 00:04:54,560 --> 00:05:02,200 But really, the biggest thing for me, in addition to doing a bunch of those things in the Army, 63 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,120 was coming out and being a civilian. 64 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:13,320 And using those skills that I had acquired over the course of 28 years and going into 65 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:18,600 a civilian service that I didn't know exactly what it was getting into, but it was one of 66 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:25,800 those things that we immediately made the transition from Fort MacPherson, Georgia, in 67 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:32,080 the Atlanta area to Fort Bragg slash Fort Liberty here in North Carolina. 68 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:36,920 It was during that time period that I first really discovered General Dillard, even though 69 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,920 he was an infantry officer, kind of turned him my officer. 70 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:48,320 And immediately, my ears perked that, hey, this was an opportunity to do something for 71 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:52,760 our first G2 here at Force Comm, where forces command. 72 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:56,040 So I'm going to stop you there on a couple of things because we've got listeners who 73 00:05:56,040 --> 00:06:00,520 are not as familiar with the lingo. 74 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:05,400 So tell us what you transferred into the Military Intelligence Corps, and I know there would 75 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:11,000 be plenty of people who would make a joke at this point about that being an oxymoron. 76 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,160 But tell us what military intelligence is about. 77 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:22,320 Yeah, pretty much in my case, it was to be a tactical intelligence officer, meaning that 78 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:28,160 I would find out about the enemy, analyze it, and give it to my commander as he made 79 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:29,160 decisions. 80 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:34,600 In my case, I also became a counterintelligence officer, and so it was one of those things 81 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:41,520 of, I won't say we're the James Bond's of the military, but we're people that go out 82 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:48,760 and use information gathered from other sources like the, about the adversary and bring it 83 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:50,080 back to our commanders. 84 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:57,640 So really, it's just a matter of, in my case, I had a vested knee as an infantry officer 85 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:03,680 and that said, well, you know, I probably need a couple of skills before I retire. 86 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:10,520 And so I went in and I was intrigued by the intelligence field, and they gave me an opportunity 87 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:11,520 to do that. 88 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:16,840 Well, I would also point out to our listeners that Colonel Perkins picked up his master's 89 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:22,600 degree in strategic studies from the US Army War College back in 2001. 90 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:28,160 So both experience and educated in this general area. 91 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:32,960 I want to get another thing out of the way here before you go on and tell the story about 92 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:37,520 General Dillard and that is, you mentioned the term G2. 93 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:44,440 So explain to the listeners, what, what is the G2 designation in the Army? 94 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:53,480 Yeah, G2's are essentially go back to the Napoleonic era to where Napoleon had, gave 95 00:07:53,480 --> 00:08:00,600 numbers to the, the various skills or offices that he had on his staff. 96 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:08,440 So G1's being personnel, G3's being operations and G4's being logistics. 97 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:14,760 So G2 is the intel or intelligence and security aspects of a staff. 98 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:19,520 So that person's actually trained. 99 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:24,080 Sometimes it's an inherent thing, which is kind of the way it was for General Dillard 100 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:25,680 in the beginning. 101 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:30,440 So S2's or G2's, depending upon what level of staff. 102 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,440 So generals get a G2. 103 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,720 The other guys just get S2's. 104 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:46,880 That was really General Dillard's first exposure to a staff was he was the S2 for a battalion 105 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,000 in, in Korea. 106 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:54,920 Well let's go back now and, and transition this to talking about Major General Oliver 107 00:08:54,920 --> 00:09:01,360 Dillard who was born in 1926 in Alabama. 108 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:06,320 But tell us about his education and how he found himself in the military. 109 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:13,080 Well, he's an interesting character in that he comes from a really a poor background, 110 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:17,520 but not one that didn't appreciate education. 111 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:24,600 So he came out of high school or really out of high school at about the age of 16 and 112 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,560 went to Tuskegee Institute. 113 00:09:27,560 --> 00:09:32,720 And so around that same time the war started and he was really too young. 114 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:39,800 So he goes to college and as he starts to turn 18, well, they start looking at him 115 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:41,760 at being drafted. 116 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:47,120 And so he puts in a deferment and they accept it. 117 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:53,760 The next year, however, with 1945, he doesn't think he's, he's passed the age of getting 118 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,800 into the, into the military and the draft. 119 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:58,600 He doesn't know anything about the draft. 120 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:07,000 And as a young black or African American student, he's, he's not sure what that whole 121 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,120 thing is in the military. 122 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:17,640 But he goes through it, even though he's in RTC at Tuskegee. 123 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:22,160 He goes through the process and the army says, no, we want you. 124 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:26,080 And he goes, well, the war's already over in Europe. 125 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:32,200 And they had other things for him to do like the occupation of Europe after the war. 126 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:40,400 So he gets in there, snicks in before 1946, which is really essentially when the war ends 127 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:41,400 in Europe. 128 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:48,720 It gets pushed over as a, in an artillery unit in Europe. 129 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:56,680 So during that time period, he goes through, he gets identified by a white officer and 130 00:10:56,680 --> 00:10:58,960 pushed into OCS. 131 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:05,000 So that's really the first time that he gets a, so he's got three years of college. 132 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:13,160 He's in the, in the unit, comes out of OCS, goes through, essentially goes through the 133 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:17,480 Korean War and then gets a chance to finish his degree. 134 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:22,240 And he's at the Commander General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. 135 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:30,800 And ultimately his education ends formally when he goes through the National War College 136 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:39,760 in Fort McNair, District of Columbia, and his current, is what do you think, dual student, 137 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:44,840 if you will, at the George Washington University. 138 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,160 And so that's kind of his education background. 139 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:54,440 And what's really sort of unique and, and here that people ought to make sure they're 140 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:58,240 catching is he starts out as an enlisted guy. 141 00:11:58,240 --> 00:11:59,240 He does. 142 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,440 His skill set is recognized. 143 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:09,400 He's encouraged or I think he's had pushed into going to officer candidate school so 144 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:16,320 that he can move from enlisted to an officer, which normally would have required that degree. 145 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:22,720 They get him through OCS, they get him through making sure he picks up his degree. 146 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,360 And now he's on a whole different path, isn't he? 147 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:27,360 He is. 148 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:34,960 And he's the only one of the three black students in the Commander General Staff College immediately 149 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:35,960 following that. 150 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:42,880 He goes to the University of Omaha, now Nebraska, Omaha, and like a special program for people 151 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:47,320 like him, nowadays we actually don't let him go that deep. 152 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:55,000 They have to basically get it before their degree, before they are captains. 153 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:59,320 And so he's already a major at that time. 154 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:05,360 And but he's being recognized as being a fast mover, if you will, at the time. 155 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:14,160 And this is really, he was in a, when he went to Korea back in 50, 51, he was in the segregated 156 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:15,600 unit. 157 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:21,480 So now we fast forward to basically the CGSE class of 58. 158 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:28,400 And he's now one of only three students in that whole class that are lack of a better 159 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:34,320 term today, a person of color that are making it through that course. 160 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,960 So the Army is definitely starting to identify him. 161 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:46,840 And he's a person at that point with a Silver Star and a CIB, Combat Infantryman's Badge. 162 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:54,000 So he is being looked on as being a fast mover, if you will, but he's in a position 163 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,880 where there aren't a lot of black soldiers or officers. 164 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:03,760 One, there aren't a lot of black soldiers, but there definitely not a lot of black officers. 165 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:12,880 And so he's fighting upstream, but being helped along the way because he's shown some potential 166 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:13,880 and competence. 167 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:15,720 Well, it's more than potential. 168 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:16,720 It was right. 169 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:21,000 I mean, he really was a very competent officer. 170 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:29,560 And fortunately, you know, the Army recognizes this and tell us about how he moved over to 171 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:34,400 military intelligence, which brings us back to that's not an oxymoron. 172 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,200 So tell us how that move occurred. 173 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,560 You can't let that one die, can you? 174 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:41,560 I can't. 175 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:42,560 I can't. 176 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,480 Yeah, it's an interesting thing. 177 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:51,760 Back in his day, we really didn't have a military intelligence branch. 178 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:57,680 So you can be an infantry officer, but also be an intel, what we'll call an intelligence 179 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:03,360 officer just to keep us from having the oxymoron come in. 180 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,160 But you could do both. 181 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:14,320 And in my day, there were only when I made the transition, they still had the program, 182 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:21,960 which was kind of like a dual branch, but you could be what was called an 1135, which 183 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,080 is infantry intel. 184 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,200 And when I came in, they quit doing that. 185 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:29,200 They had quit that. 186 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:33,280 But my first boss, believe it or not, was an infantry officer. 187 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:39,800 My first intelligence supervisor was an infantry officer with an intel background. 188 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:48,120 And what really made it so hard was that you had to know all of these things intel-wise, 189 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,560 but you were constantly going back and being an infantryman. 190 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:56,640 Now, the good side to that is that you never quit being an infantryman. 191 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:02,720 And so you were able to give that perspective of an infantry officer to intel people. 192 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:08,520 And General Dillard was famous for his view that we need to get people out of the suits 193 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,760 and into the boots. 194 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:16,600 And he jokingly said that, but he was serious about it, that there were a bunch of people 195 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:22,960 that believed counterintelligence people just needed to be in suits, walking around, looking 196 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:23,960 cool and whatever. 197 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:30,880 And his answer was, no, you need to be in these boots and be irrelevant to the tactical 198 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:32,280 soldier. 199 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:36,560 So not strategic focus, but tactical focus. 200 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:44,360 And again, he sort of had this unique perspective because he started over on the enlisted side, 201 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:50,720 artillery in Europe before kind of moving in a different direction. 202 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:56,120 And one of the sort of, you know, sometimes there's a life's a circle, he ends up as the 203 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:01,400 first black deputy chief of staff intelligence for the US Army Europe. 204 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:07,480 He couldn't have imagined that when he went over there in, say, 1946 or 7. 205 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:15,400 Jim, I can't imagine that today that you could take an infantry officer and basically put 206 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:24,720 him into a two star billet of the of a organization that is in charge of all the land forces 207 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,120 in Europe during the Cold War. 208 00:17:27,120 --> 00:17:29,880 I mentioned during the Cold War. 209 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:34,080 So we're ready to go to war at any time. 210 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:41,920 This is not Vietnam's done and we now the whole focus of the US Army is on Europe. 211 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,280 And he is the lead intel guy. 212 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:50,640 I can't even imagine how tough that is and the scrutiny that he's being put under because 213 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,400 he's not a true blood. 214 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:55,400 Am I officer? 215 00:17:55,400 --> 00:18:00,920 Yeah, well, and again, and this is so much of life in general, just not the army, but 216 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:02,360 you know, he didn't go to West Point. 217 00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:04,040 It's not a written actor, right? 218 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,280 He's African American. 219 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:08,480 So he doesn't fit in in that regards. 220 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:16,160 He went to Tuskegee Institute, which has a huge reputation in more more in the Air Force 221 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,880 side, the Army Air Corps side than it does in the regular Army side. 222 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:26,480 So just a whole lot of different pathways that got him to into all of these first. 223 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:31,640 Do you want to talk to us about some of the first that he's kind of broke the broke the 224 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:32,640 glass on? 225 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:38,200 Well, I'm not sure I can remember all the first that he did. 226 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:44,720 I will say this, he was only the fifth general officer when he penned on his star. 227 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,760 So there's not a lot of precedence for this. 228 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:54,440 And you hit on a key point that he wasn't the typical guy and and we taught you, you 229 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,600 talked about not being a ring locker. 230 00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:59,680 He's not even that. 231 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:05,160 He's a mustang or what some call this thing, which is an OCS guy. 232 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:11,800 So most of the OCS guys don't get an opportunity to make it as far as he did. 233 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:18,240 And I'm trying to I guess the biggest thing that he was the first on was he was the first 234 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:26,360 officer to attend the National War College in in DC. 235 00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:27,960 And that was problem. 236 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:29,440 And go ahead. 237 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:34,520 Well I have from his introduction to the Michigan Military and Veterans Hall of Honor, 238 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,800 another little paragraph I'll read which says, General Dillard served as the first black 239 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,920 general officer in the office of the assistant chief of staff for intelligence. 240 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:47,680 The last J2 for the US military assistance command Vietnam. 241 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:52,920 The first US Army forces command deputy chief of staff intelligence and the first black 242 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:58,520 deputy chief of staff intelligence for the US Army Europe prior all that prior to obviously 243 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,960 to his retirement from the Army in 1980. 244 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:05,480 I mean along the way there are a whole lot of firsts aren't there? 245 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:09,240 You know they they really are. 246 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:15,800 The funny thing is as I was researching even more into General Dillard, you brought up 247 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:25,640 the point of where he's the final military assistance command Vietnam J2, meaning the 248 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,200 joint staff general officer command. 249 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,960 The guys are in charge of all of Vietnam. 250 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:37,560 He didn't go there during that tour to be the intel officer. 251 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:45,320 He had gone back to being the infantry guy again and so he was the the deputy chief 252 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:53,640 of staff for the cords program which is basically the civilian advisory and development program 253 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:55,600 in Vietnam. 254 00:20:55,600 --> 00:21:05,280 It was only to the point of we were about to get out of Vietnam and so the J2 he left. 255 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:11,280 The war is not even over and this guy leaves and so they're going okay well we need a 256 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,600 strong intel guy. 257 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,600 Didn't Ollie? 258 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:17,760 Isn't he an intel guy? 259 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:19,720 Yeah we give it to him. 260 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:24,160 And so they walked over and said hey Ollie do you want to do this? 261 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:32,200 And he thinks about it a little bit and remembering that you know some of the he's got about I 262 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:39,160 think four things that he tries to think of in life. 263 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:44,080 Part of it one of his final ones is seize opportunities when you have the ability to 264 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:45,640 seize opportunities. 265 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:51,520 Wow isn't that a pearl of wisdom that needs to be passed down to everybody. 266 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:53,920 This isn't a job he was looking for. 267 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,680 Not even sure it was a job that he wanted but it was an opportunity and you kind of 268 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,080 have to grab the bull by the horns don't you? 269 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:08,760 You do and beyond even that Jim you have to be ready to do that. 270 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:15,640 So he's he's preparing he's thinking about these things all during that time period. 271 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:25,720 So he's already had a two year tour being a provincial military advisor up there in 272 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:30,960 Can Thun province with with General Wynn. 273 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,280 Wynn Hop Dwan is the guy's name. 274 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:41,480 The last mayor of Saigon and these guys have gotten along really well and he's really made 275 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:47,680 his name all he's made his name up there in that province of how they have his advisory 276 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:54,440 team has really done a good job of working with the people and he's got those kind of 277 00:22:54,440 --> 00:23:01,720 tentacles if you will that he can kind of pull from but big time that he recognized 278 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:02,720 opportunity. 279 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:07,680 Well you have to be right you have to be ready for the opportunity you have to have the skill 280 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:13,240 set the communication the analytical thinking he's demonstrated all of that at that point 281 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:19,640 and we're talking to Colonel Stephen Perkins US Army retired he helped a major General 282 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:27,000 Oliver Dillard write his book little old war stories and and Steve has authored a number 283 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:34,040 of articles on General Dillard's career including the forgotten Sable officer which was published 284 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,040 in the military intelligence and professional journal. 285 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:45,440 You are if you will Steve and the family reviews you this way is sort of the official biographer 286 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:52,240 for Major General Oliver Dillard how'd you find yourself in that role. 287 00:23:52,240 --> 00:24:00,600 Well it was because him being the first general officer or the first Intel guy G2 at forces 288 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:10,800 command so I just taken over and we had a new building at Fort Liberty Fort Bragg and so 289 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:16,160 we started naming conference rooms we had about three conference rooms that we were 290 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:22,720 going to try to name after people and so as we did that they said well you can't you can't 291 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:27,680 name after people I went okay. 292 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:28,840 There's a rule. 293 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:33,400 Right and so I said that's fine. 294 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:38,000 And then I thought to myself well what campaigns because we're going to make you had to name 295 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,640 them after campaigns. 296 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:45,040 I said what campaigns was General Dillard in so the first one which is really when he 297 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:55,440 made the transition was the UN defensive campaign of the Korean War and so that's what we did 298 00:24:55,440 --> 00:25:02,680 was we named the conference room after him and I immediately started thinking what are 299 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:08,720 the things that I can do and the reason that I called the first article that we had in 300 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:16,680 the military intelligence professional bulletin or MIPB the reason I wrote about it and it's 301 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:29,000 entitled the Sable Officer is I had pulled from a guy his PhD thesis was in was talking 302 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:37,920 about general officers that had made had made something of themselves and he talks about 303 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:43,520 the reason he chooses instead of black is he said he goes with Sable and the reason is 304 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:52,880 that he says well people come in all kinds of colors and Sable is it has multi multi 305 00:25:52,880 --> 00:26:00,680 colors and so that was how he he did it and I went after the title I said you know he 306 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:07,040 is that to me he was the alt from an MI standpoint or intelligence standpoint he was the quid 307 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:19,040 essential perfect person to show how people have grown since 1951 53 probably is when 308 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:26,160 they they really got rid of segregation but how we had really grown as a military and 309 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:33,800 had had taken a look had kind of grown as an organization or it's an institution and 310 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:40,800 so he he was the first and so I decided that he was going to be the guy that I was going 311 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:46,120 to put a lot of time and effort into well it he certainly deserves it because his career 312 00:26:46,120 --> 00:26:50,160 is phenomenal the more you look into it the more you recognize it but it's been recognized 313 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:57,760 by others he was has was awarded the military intelligent corps associations lieutenant 314 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:02,840 colonel Nolton award for excellence in intelligence he was inducted into the officer candidate 315 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:08,600 school hall of fame the army military intelligence hall of fame the Alabama military hall of 316 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:17,840 honor the Michigan military and veterans hall of honor most recently the VA named its community 317 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:26,960 clinic in Canton Michigan in his honor this is also put into the military the armies military 318 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:35,040 intelligence hall of fame I mean that these are all outside recognitions of what a tremendous 319 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:44,560 man he was officer leader across a whole variety of times and circumstances as we close out 320 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:55,040 here Colonel Perkins give us your kind of overall thoughts of how Colonel or Major General 321 00:27:55,040 --> 00:28:09,240 Dillard's life should be remembered he's really a guy that took on a lot of challenges that 322 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:20,720 and I use this in the dedication of the Canton facility I use that he was our hero and he 323 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:29,520 put a lot of effort into being an honorable person with humility he always pushed himself 324 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:39,120 and others to be excellent in what he did many say that you can't lead unless people 325 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:47,360 know that you care and he spent a lot of time gaining their respect but more important as 326 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:55,160 importantly because that is really important right he seized opportunities but he was able 327 00:28:55,160 --> 00:29:04,080 to really push the envelope on those those opportunities because he was competent and 328 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:11,560 ready to do the mission that people are going to offer to him and again I just think that 329 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:17,640 as a former Buffalo soldier and and I actually I'm not sure if this res made with you're 330 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:23,480 not but there was another although you mentioned like five or six other first I'm gonna be 331 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:32,520 another first some believe that he was that his platoon in Korea was the first American 332 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:42,480 victory on the peninsula during that war the battle of the H on in South Korea and his 333 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:53,440 platoon went in and he was very humble as he described it but his company commander 334 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:59,400 it was a Buffalo soldier and a paratrooper during World War two black paratrooper during 335 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:09,680 World War two with the triple nickel regiment he was there was an article on this this battle 336 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:18,240 written for infantry magazine I believe where he see describes all the goodness that Oliver 337 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:24,880 Diller did and part of that eventually led to earning the Silver Star so definitely still 338 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:32,440 my hero and I hope it's everybody else will read about him and understand he's got Wikipedia 339 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:39,480 page which he was very proud of and yeah this is this is why we tell these stories is so 340 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:45,120 that we wet your appetite maybe you go do some more reading and research on them and 341 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:54,040 learn more and see the attributes the talents the the pearls of wisdom in his life and apply 342 00:30:54,040 --> 00:31:02,440 it to yours and and Colonel Steven Perkins US Army retired official biographer if you 343 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:06,520 will for me general Oliver Diller I don't think there's any pay that goes with that 344 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:12,480 but at least it's a title Steve I'm cleaning I want to I want to thank you for the time 345 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:18,680 that you've given us today on Veterans Radio well thanks Jim and I really appreciate everybody 346 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:28,560 else listening to it and you specifically of pulling out all even more that I know of 347 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:35,640 but may not have been able to articulate earlier than that so thank you again for your assistance 348 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:43,400 in getting me to open up even more about my hero we enjoyed it well general Dillard is 349 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:52,400 a heck of a patriot broke a lot of barriers really the African community African American 350 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,800 community should be very proud of this man and what he accomplished so we're glad to 351 00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:03,120 bring that back to you as I mentioned at the outset it's Black History Month and maybe 352 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:09,200 you've seen or heard about a Netflix film by Tyler Perry that's out called the 6th Triple 353 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:18,320 Eighth it's about a US Army postal unit made up of African American women in World War 354 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:27,200 II who go to England and then France and administrative task of getting piles and piles and piles 355 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:33,760 of mail that was stuck out as their motto was no male low morale and they really did 356 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:39,160 accomplish something it's a great movie in a couple of years ago here on Veterans Radio 357 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:45,240 we did a podcast on the 6th Triple Eighth so you can go go search for that Veterans Radio 358 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:51,320 6th Triple Eighth Kai Anderson was the author that we talked to so we were a couple of years 359 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:56,120 ahead of Hollywood but they're doing a great job of promoting this we want to bring a few 360 00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:02,840 words from sponsors and then we're going to talk about Academy Admissions military veterans 361 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:07,560 touch everyone's life I'm guessing right now you're thinking of a veteran a close friend 362 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:13,880 relative maybe it's you even the toughest of us sometimes need help but don't know where to 363 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:18,600 turn for support you don't need special training to help a veteran in your life we can all help 364 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:23,680 someone going through a difficult time learn how you can be there for veterans visit Veterans 365 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:30,040 Crisis Line dot net Veterans Crisis Line dot net a message from the US Department of Veterans Affairs 366 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:36,120 if you have a VA claim denied by the Board of Veterans Appeals contact legal help for veterans 367 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:43,160 at 1-800-693-4800 they're experts in handling cases before the US Court of Appeals for Veterans 368 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:50,680 Claims their number again 1-800-693-4800 we're talking today on Veterans Radio with Captain John 369 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:56,680 P. Cordell retired from the US Navy and Lieutenant Commander Ruben Keith-Green retired from the US 370 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:01,880 Navy as well both gentlemen we've talked to a number of different times on important subjects 371 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:08,600 but they recently wrote an article that focuses on a subject we've had some passing discussion on 372 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:15,080 but I want to have some more which is the tragedy of the lost generation and that's about the lack 373 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:24,840 of representation of minorities African Americans in the United States Naval Academy it's percentage 374 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:31,880 wise I think John you were telling me that while the Navy overall has a 17% black 375 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:41,720 census the Naval Academy only has about 6% is that right right I recently looked up their 376 00:34:41,720 --> 00:34:48,600 demographics of the class of 2024 and it's about 6.8% now the numbers get a little fuzzy because 377 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:54,120 some people identify with multiple ethnic groups you know mother was black father was white and 378 00:34:54,120 --> 00:35:01,560 you know as we were talking about the past with folks applying General Williams reminded me that 379 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:06,680 hey back in the day if you had the option to not put black when you knew that nobody could 380 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:11,080 look you up on the internet or interview in person you didn't put black you put white and so the 381 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:18,600 numbers may be skewed a little bit but that's what they said about 6.8% black. And you referenced 382 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:24,440 a book that I think we ought to give a little mention to which is Blue and Gold and Black 383 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:31,880 Racial Integration of the U.S. Naval Academy by historian Robert Schneller. That's correct. 384 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:41,320 When I read your article and looked at his writing and it sort of you know when you say it out loud 385 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:47,320 it makes sense there are certainly states that his because appointments are made by senators 386 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:51,720 and congressmen and women there are certain areas of the country that have just avoided 387 00:35:53,720 --> 00:36:01,320 nominating to the academies a diverse racial population. Was this something that just was 388 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:11,480 obvious and I just never thought about it? Not at all so the path of that was through actually 389 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:16,520 the Navy history inheritance command a friend of ours named Denise Crepe who actually advocated 390 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:22,200 for the re-name of a base that was named for one of her ancestors because he was a confederate. 391 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:31,320 And she actually pointed me towards the Naval Academy archivist who basically sent me a database 392 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:38,600 and we got permission to use it and essentially of all the nominations from all of the Naval Academy 393 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:45,400 going back as far as digital records which was 1978. And then we basically searched through that data 394 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:50,440 and sorted by state and then we looked at the demographics of the state and said okay 395 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:55,800 all the demographics of the state you know the percent black population represented by the 396 00:36:55,800 --> 00:37:03,800 percent of nominations and when you sort that those two columns magically all 12 southern states 397 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:09,640 percolate to the bottom with the worst ratio with Mississippi with the absolute worst ratio. 398 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:18,040 So no it was not readily apparent and nobody else that I've talked to had even looked at it. 399 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:26,520 So that was kind of mind-boggling to discover. And Keith talk a little bit about why it's important 400 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:33,880 that the academies not just the naval but we're focusing on the naval academy that the military 401 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:42,520 academies kind of reflect our general population in terms of who gets into these prestigious positions. 402 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:50,840 Well during the Vietnam War the number one complaint of black sailors was that they had no 403 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:58,840 black officers to go to their to share their concerns with. And the Navy and Army took 404 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:05,000 very different approaches on that. The Army banned the Confederate flag in theater in Vietnam War 405 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:10,600 and powerful people like Mississippi Senator John C. Stennis pressured the Army to reverse that ban. 406 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:19,560 You had KKK rallies, cross burning, etc. etc. You would go into your commander's office and he'd 407 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:25,640 have a big giant Confederate flag on the wall behind him sitting in his office in Vietnam. 408 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:31,400 So because there were so few black officers black people felt like they weren't getting they weren't 409 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,960 being heard they weren't being respected and they weren't being treated fairly. And all of the all 410 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:43,960 the statistics bear that out. That's where we're to today you've got all these claims of DEI hires and 411 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:51,960 cull over merit when they don't even understand the history of how we got to the limited number 412 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:57,320 of black officers that exist right now. It is important if you're going to have a diverse force 413 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:01,880 that they have people that look like them and represent them. One of the biggest problems 414 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:08,360 in the military justice system is that there are very few black judge-affricate general officers 415 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:15,560 and many of the issues that are treated as disciplinary issues are actually cultural and 416 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:21,960 communications issues. And when you've got someone that has racial bias and they are trying to 417 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:27,160 communicate with someone that is experiencing racial bias you're setting yourself up for failure. 418 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:33,080 I don't want to see the military go back into a period where you're having this racial strife because 419 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:38,920 you've got a majority white leadership leading a very diverse force and they have no skin in the 420 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:45,880 game in terms of changing the you know that dynamic. But the black people and the minorities, Jewish, 421 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:50,440 black, you know, Hispanic, etc. they know what they're experiencing on a day-to-day basis. 422 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:57,400 Yeah I think it's one of those situations where if you and I think the language you use John if 423 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:02,760 you're if you don't start out as an admiral you you got to work your way up from being an ensign and 424 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:07,960 if you're not coming out of an academy with a bunch of ensigns who are in the minority 425 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:12,840 classifications they're not gonna buy tuition and everything else over 30 years they're not 426 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:18,440 going to be there in the in the flag ranks are they? Right yeah that number never gets bigger 427 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:22,200 right it can only start where it starts and then start to work its way down as you would try. 428 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:28,920 And that's you know but back to Keith's you know one of the big counter arguments that I see and 429 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:35,160 there was a recent article in the Naval Institute making this argument that you know we're we're 430 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:42,280 sort of post-racism now and that we need to focus on meritocracy and that the military 431 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:48,520 should be a pure meritocracy and and I fully agree that your advancement should be based on merit. 432 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:54,440 But one of the purposes and Keith can probably articulate this rather than I can, in a form of 433 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:59,480 action was to try to close that gap between opportunity whether it was wealth opportunity, 434 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:07,240 education opportunity, that was a racial gap and at least give people who had not had those 435 00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:12,600 opportunities a leg up so they could compete in a meritocracy on an equal basis but you can't have 436 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:18,040 a meritocracy if I can't get in the door in the first place. Well and you point out from the 437 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:25,960 statistics it's sort of a quiet we just won't make any appointments or a limited number of 438 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:34,520 appointments it's a it's a very subtle and quiet bias. Keith react if you would. Well in addition 439 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:42,680 to that about a few years ago I did an interview with Steve Walsh at KPBS and the article was 440 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:48,280 why there's so few black animals in the U.S. Navy and Admiral St. Clair Harris talked about 441 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:55,160 the death valley phase of a black officer's career after about 10 or 12 years when they've been fighting 442 00:41:55,160 --> 00:42:01,960 this perception of a lack of qualification and subtle racial discrimination and open racial 443 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:06,760 discrimination they finally decide that they're just not willing to do it anymore and throw in 444 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:12,920 the towel and then those people are taken out of the selection pool or some of the most motivated 445 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:18,360 people decide that I can't do this anymore I'm not going to do this anymore and go get a job in 446 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:25,400 civilian community and then they get blamed for not being able to hack it or not willing to hack it 447 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:30,360 when they're competing against people that have not had in any way shape or form to deal with those 448 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:36,760 issues. I left the Navy at 22 years because I simply could not take the discrimination I was 449 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:43,320 spacing from my commanding officer who asked me when I challenged him on why he was mistreating me 450 00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:48,040 he asked he smirked at me and said do you feel like a second-class citizen and he was completely 451 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:54,200 protected by the people when I filed a five-page discrimination complaint against him a rock solid 452 00:42:54,200 --> 00:43:01,000 the early documented case and he was protected and went on to abuse a ship full of people before he 453 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:09,720 retired as a Navy captain. Well we're having this discussion as it was about admissions to the 454 00:43:09,720 --> 00:43:17,160 academies in part because the US Supreme Court in the last year struck down race-conscious 455 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:25,720 admissions at civilian schools and that raised a question of well can can race or gender be used 456 00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:34,520 in a qualifying applications to the to the academies and there are many groups who have our 457 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:40,040 filing briefs and motions and saying yeah you've got to be able to use these factors if we're going 458 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:45,640 to have the right officer corps going forward and I know earlier in the year I spoke to the 459 00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:53,080 National Association of Black Women Veterans and it was one of the major issues for that group 460 00:43:53,080 --> 00:44:05,720 that they were advocating for. If this is not improved do you see John based on the statistics 461 00:44:05,720 --> 00:44:12,360 you ran is are the southern states going to continue what they're doing can California make up the 462 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:17,960 difference New York how does how do the statistics tell you this will all work itself out? 463 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:25,400 Well you know when you draw two dots on the board they they lead to a line and you can follow that 464 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:32,600 line and so if you change the if you do away with the the ability to at least consider race 465 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:37,880 you know the numbers aren't going to go up the other two things points I would make Jim number 466 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:44,600 one no one records the number of nominees who were not accepted and so we don't even know 467 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:51,560 how many applications there were by by any sort of demographic means and what percentage were 468 00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:56,520 rejected whether it was you know by black Hispanic. You know let me just give you an example of why 469 00:44:56,520 --> 00:45:03,400 this is important when the first black secretary of the army Clifford Alexander received a promotion 470 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:09,320 list for for one star general there were no black people on the list and he rejected the list he 471 00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:15,480 said you can't tell me that there's not one black colonel in the entire United States army that is 472 00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:24,040 not ready and and capable of being promoted and has not earned it so he sent the list back and said 473 00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:29,640 go back and look at your top black candidates and when they returned the list to him the name of 474 00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:35,240 colonel Powell had been added to that list colonel Powell was preparing to retire as a colonel his 475 00:45:35,240 --> 00:45:40,680 career was over and then all of a sudden he gets a new lease on life because the black secretary 476 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:47,160 of the army knew that they needed to have a more diversified army course so imagine how many times 477 00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:53,240 that has happened since then particularly in the navy where these very highly qualified 478 00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:59,400 black people have been looked over because they're not part of the same group as the rest of the 479 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:06,280 people being considered it's a great example and as I think most people know colonel Powell didn't go 480 00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:13,560 to the academy he got his commission through an rotc scholarship again kind of highlights he probably 481 00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:19,320 would never have gotten an appointment back in that point in time and we really need to encourage 482 00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:28,280 the representative grouping of folks who get appointments to our academies to reflect the 483 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:34,600 diversity of our country there's certainly are folks who have plenty of skills for it but if you 484 00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:40,520 keep rejecting people then at the same time they're not going to apply they're going to go as you're 485 00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:46,760 saying Keith hey I don't have a shot at this why am I even bothering right that's correct well it's 486 00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:51,000 an important issue and it's one that folks who certainly need to think about and work on and 487 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:57,720 hopefully our congressional and senatorial staffers who really do the do the grunt work in 488 00:46:57,720 --> 00:47:04,360 getting academy appointments pulled together and the interviewing committees will approach this with 489 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:14,120 a little bit of 2024 insight and not exclude people because of their race ethnicity gender 490 00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:20,840 lieutenant commander Reuben Keith Green US Navy retired as always Keith great to talk to you keep 491 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:26,520 keep us informed as these things move forward and if the veterans radio audience can can provide 492 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:34,440 any assistance please feel free to reach out thank you very much Jim well we hope that both of these 493 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:40,680 interviews have given you some new information been a little thought-provoking we all in February 494 00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:49,080 of every year we do try to focus on African-American servicemen and women you know it is you know if 495 00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:54,840 you're not taught the history if you don't know the history of our country and and all of the 496 00:47:54,840 --> 00:48:01,000 cultures in it it's easy to kind of think well those guys haven't pulled their weight and that 497 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:07,400 nothing could be further from the truth from African-American women who joined in World War 498 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:13,880 II and are now you know remembered in that Netflix video 6888 by Tyler Perry which will 499 00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:20,200 probably get the word out more about what African-American women did during that war than anything else 500 00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:28,280 no one reads the books anymore so I think that film will be very useful as I said we've done a 501 00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:39,560 podcast on it you can go listen to but maybe also didn't know that of the 3525 medals of honor that 502 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:47,800 have been awarded as of January 2025 97 have been awarded to African-Americans and actually 503 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:54,040 Robert Augustus Sweeney is one of 19 men and the only African-American who have been awarded two 504 00:48:54,040 --> 00:49:05,000 medals of honors so you know the contributions of our fellow Americans is you can find it imprinted 505 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:11,560 on the in the stories of Medal of Honor recipients certainly there were times when the bias and 506 00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:20,920 prejudice kept African-Americans out of receiving those awards and in fact there was a time where 507 00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:27,240 no medals of honors had been awarded to black soldiers who served in World War II there was a 508 00:49:27,240 --> 00:49:34,840 review of files and several African-Americans who had received the Distinguished Service Cross 509 00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:43,640 got upgraded to the Medal of Honor back in 1997 so Bill Clinton actually awarded the Medal of 510 00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:49,960 Honor to seven African-American World War II veterans but only one was alive at that point so 511 00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:55,480 it becomes one of these things where yeah there's recognition maybe there's even recognition of 512 00:49:55,480 --> 00:50:05,720 upgrades of medals but some of that's just a little bit too late to really make a big difference 513 00:50:05,720 --> 00:50:11,400 one of the last African-Americans to receive the Medal of Honor was Elwin Cash Army Sergeant 514 00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:20,680 First Class for activity in Iraq in October of 2005 where he distinguished himself by acts of 515 00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:29,720 gallantry above and beyond the call of duty while serving in Iraq in October as I said of 2005 so 516 00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:38,600 the service of these great men and women who have African-American designation if you will 517 00:50:39,240 --> 00:50:45,160 continues on and will continue on they are certainly part of the backbone of the U.S. Army 518 00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:50,280 and the backbone of the U.S. military I mentioned earlier an interview that we did with the National 519 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:58,920 Association of Black Military Women which I'd point you back to we did that last year so you 520 00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:12,280 can look that up as well the National Association website is nabw.org a dynamic group of Black 521 00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:22,200 Military Women preserving history and helping it continue on the service of other Black women so 522 00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:28,120 you may want to look that up as well as you learn a little bit more about these contributions 523 00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:35,560 would remind you again that our guest Lieutenant Commander Ruben Keith Green has a book that you 524 00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:44,840 can obtain Black Officer White Navy very insightful gives you a different view of what it is to be a 525 00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:53,880 Black Officer in the U.S. Navy you know this is recent history that not many many years ago so 526 00:51:54,600 --> 00:52:00,920 you can look that one up he's writes on this subject regularly as as this Captain John Cordell 527 00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:07,640 both gentlemen have a lot of social media presence a lot of articles that they don't let much 528 00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:14,680 grass grow under their feet advocating for issues that they really do care about we're at an 529 00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:21,000 interesting time in our history as we change presidents and administrations with more focus 530 00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:26,120 on rebuilding the military and rebuilding the navy in particular to respond to the China threat 531 00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:34,360 but and you know when you look at our you can't rebuild any of the military without adding more 532 00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:40,520 people right more tanks more planes more ships aren't going to make the difference you gotta have 533 00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:52,600 the individuals maintaining driving all of those sorts of things currently about 29 percent 534 00:52:52,600 --> 00:53:02,040 of the U.S. military are African American men and about 17 percent are African American women 535 00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:12,280 that is really a big group and critical to our national defense as as is the 536 00:53:13,720 --> 00:53:20,600 Hispanic population which is about 21 percent of the military men and 18 percent of military women 537 00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:28,280 so as we think about these issues as we go into the new organizational administration new secretary 538 00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:34,200 defense we just got confirmed who claims these four of the warfighters we've got to remember our 539 00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:44,760 warfighters include blacks Hispanics Asians native americans and be respectful and give equal 540 00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:50,280 opportunity based on merit to all of those people if we're going to have truly a representative 541 00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:56,360 military and one that can protect the entire population these are important subjects that 542 00:53:56,360 --> 00:54:01,480 we bring forward to you on veterans radio every week we want to thank our sponsors such as the 543 00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:12,440 national vietnam veterans of america association locally vfw charles s kettles chapter vfw 544 00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:19,000 graffo hara chapter in the american legion erwin press corn post all three of those in in arbor 545 00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:25,560 we can't do this without sponsors and supporters certainly the an arbor health care system 546 00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:32,280 the v a system the nvbdc legal help for veterans all of these folks are important 547 00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:39,480 but we need your help as well if you can go to veterans radio dot org hit the donate button and 548 00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:45,720 send us some contributions some funds keep us on the air it's now been 21 22 years and uh 549 00:54:45,720 --> 00:54:53,240 uh it gets more complicated and expensive every year so we could really use your support if you 550 00:54:53,240 --> 00:55:01,080 have ideas on people we should talk to stories we you haven't heard send us a note to jim add veterans 551 00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:07,480 radio dot org or dale at veterans radio dot org we're always looking for ideas and how to 552 00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:14,040 make the program better and get more information out to folks like you who are interested in 553 00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:19,160 the u.s. military maybe you're a veteran maybe you're a friend maybe you're just somebody who 554 00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:24,200 understands the importance or just likes history obviously we bring a lot of history to the table 555 00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:30,920 stories that you probably haven't heard somewhere else so that's where we're at we're glad to have 556 00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:38,600 you on board dale will be back next week with more interesting stories uh as i said at the 557 00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:44,120 outside i am jim fosso and i was the officer of the deck today glad to bring you these stories 558 00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:49,240 hopefully they're a little thought-provoking and maybe something that uh knew that you didn't know 559 00:55:49,240 --> 00:55:55,480 about and if you're out there influencing young men and women to join up please do so and if you're 560 00:55:55,480 --> 00:56:02,680 you can influence uh the right type of kids to join and seek appointments to the military categories 561 00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:07,320 that's what we need don't let people get turned away because they don't think they can pull it off 562 00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:14,680 they don't have the connections let's get good pools into these academies so that uh 30 years later 563 00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:23,560 we've got a good core of people that uh you can make admirals and captains and generals uh and 564 00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:29,240 really leadership in the military and as we now look at the new secretary defense i guess you can 565 00:56:29,240 --> 00:56:34,200 say you can start anywhere and end up at the top it's a real good example maybe of that for kids 566 00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:42,440 so i am jim fosso and it's been a pleasure to bring you these stories today and until next time on 567 00:56:42,440 --> 00:57:08,360 veterans radio you are dismissed