1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:17,900 Welcome to Veterans Radio. 2 00:00:17,900 --> 00:00:20,560 I am Jim Fossone. 3 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:22,880 I'm the officer of the deck today. 4 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:24,760 We've got some great programs for you. 5 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:29,560 We always want to remind you you can find more about Veterans Radio at its Facebook 6 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:35,280 site or at the web veteransradio.org where we're on the web 24-7. 7 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,400 You can find a lot of our podcasts there as well. 8 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:45,040 We post new ones every Tuesday so you can get a new story, a new interview, something 9 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:49,720 you didn't know before by going to veteransradio.org. 10 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,080 Before we get started we want to thank our sponsors. 11 00:00:53,080 --> 00:01:00,920 Next up we want to thank National Veteran Business Development Council, NVBDC.org. 12 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:06,600 It was established to certify both service disabled and veteran owned businesses. 13 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:13,120 You'll find out how they can help your business by going to NVBDC.org. 14 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,640 We want to thank Legal Help for Veterans. 15 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:22,160 Legal Help for Veterans fights for veterans disability rights all across the nation. 16 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:33,280 You can reach them at 800-693-4800 or on the web at legalhelpforveterans.com. 17 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:36,080 And finally, PuroClean. 18 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:38,720 PuroClean is the paramedics of property damage. 19 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:44,520 It provides water damage remediation, flood water removal, fire and smoke damage remediation, 20 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,800 mold removal, biohazard cleanup. 21 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:49,440 We've got a great program for you today. 22 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,120 I think you're going to find this pretty interesting. 23 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:57,000 It's that time of year when it's easy to get down the blues, depressed. 24 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:02,920 And we're going to talk about something called blue light therapy that I think if you have 25 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,880 any of those general symptoms you'll find interesting. 26 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:10,480 But its impact on making life better for veterans. 27 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:15,160 I found fascinating and that's why I talked to these smart people about it. 28 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:22,000 And we're also going to talk about veterans exposure to PFAS chemicals and where that's 29 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,120 going and what that all means. 30 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:30,440 It's a hot topic, not covered by the general press but certainly by the military and veteran 31 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:31,440 press. 32 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:32,440 I think you'll find this interesting. 33 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:34,280 So sit back and listen. 34 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:42,400 We want to welcome to veterans radio today Dr. Helen Burgess and Dr. Allison Zolta. 35 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:49,600 We're going to be talking about some research that's being done that is important for veterans 36 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:56,480 to know and particularly if they are suffering with post-traumatic stress disorder or some 37 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:00,160 other issues like depression. 38 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,840 Let me start with Dr. Helen Burgess. 39 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:04,680 Helen welcome to veterans radio. 40 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:05,680 Thank you. 41 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,200 Thank you very much for having me here. 42 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:15,680 She is a professor of psychiatry and you'll might catch a little bit of accents. 43 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,720 She got her PhD from the University of Melbourne, Australia. 44 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:24,720 She is currently at the University of Michigan Medical Center. 45 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:30,320 She has had a faculty appointment with Rush University Medical Center previously. 46 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:34,480 And that is where she met Dr. Allison Zolta. 47 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:36,040 Allison welcome to veterans radio. 48 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:37,960 Hi, so happy to be here. 49 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:38,960 Thanks for having me. 50 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:46,160 Dr. Zolta has a PhD from the University of Pennsylvania clinical internship I guess. 51 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:52,680 So I got my clinical psychology PhD at University of Pennsylvania and then I did my internship 52 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,640 at the VA Colo Alto. 53 00:03:55,640 --> 00:04:00,400 And we'll talk a little bit about that and both of you as I said met up at Rush University 54 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:01,400 Medical Center. 55 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:08,520 I had some overlapping research areas which is where you both had some interest in veteran 56 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:10,400 related health care issues. 57 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:16,720 Dr. Helen, why don't you talk to us a little bit about why your research has gravitated 58 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,520 into some space that may be of interest to veterans. 59 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:25,920 Yes, well I think this all started several years ago. 60 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:31,200 As you mentioned Allison and I were both working at Rush together. 61 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:39,160 And I was funded through Department of Defense and also NIH to start testing morning light 62 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:43,640 treatment in veterans with chronic low back pain. 63 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:49,040 And at the time, and we still are to some extent also interested in the impact of light 64 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:50,800 on pain. 65 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:56,320 But as I started to prepare to run the study, I realized that some of the veterans would 66 00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:02,120 come in with some PTSD symptoms, but I really had no idea how to best measure that. 67 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:08,320 So at that point I reached out to Allison for advice on how we could assess that. 68 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:13,480 And indeed at the end of the study, we did find a significant reduction in PTSD symptoms. 69 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:18,640 Now I'm going to make you explain this in fifth grade terms so we veterans can understand 70 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:19,640 it. 71 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:21,920 What was, what is morning light? 72 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:30,600 Yeah, so morning light treatment traditionally has been used to treat winter depression. 73 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:37,440 So classically people sit in front of a large light box for about an hour or so shortly 74 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:39,720 after they wake up in the morning. 75 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:44,000 Some of those light boxes are what we call broad spectrum light. 76 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,560 So they look like bright white light. 77 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:54,160 But more recently devices that we call wearable light devices have been developed and that 78 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:59,800 is actually what we used in our recent study. 79 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,720 And they kind of, I guess you could describe them as light glasses. 80 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:11,360 So you wear them as if they're glasses and they have some LEDs that shine light just 81 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,280 underneath your eyes, into your eyes. 82 00:06:14,280 --> 00:06:18,680 But they're not right in front of your eyes so you can still use your computer, you can 83 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:20,640 read. 84 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:24,800 And the nice thing is you do not need to sit in front of the light box for the whole hour. 85 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:30,400 You can now actually do other things around the house, which we found people really enjoyed 86 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:31,800 being able to do. 87 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:39,480 So if you're saying that if I'm wearing these morning light glasses for about an hour a day 88 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:47,320 at the beginning of the day, it somehow helps lower pain, depression, my post-traumatic stress 89 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,240 disorder symptoms, is that what you're saying? 90 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:59,240 Yes, and we think there's three different mechanisms by which this might be working. 91 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:05,240 One is we know morning light treatment helps reduce depression. 92 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:13,160 And when you reduce depression or depressive symptoms, then things like pain and PTSD symptoms 93 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,520 improve as well. 94 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:20,200 We also know morning light treatment can help improve sleep. 95 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:24,440 It's not a huge effect, but there is some improvement in sleep as well. 96 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,200 And there is a connection between sleep and pain. 97 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:32,880 And we know that sleep is often impaired in association with PTSD as well. 98 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:38,600 And then the third pathway would be through the circadian system, which is a body clock 99 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:40,520 in the brain. 100 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:47,040 And it's driving circadian rhythms in pretty much everything you can think of, both for 101 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,880 our psychological health and physical health. 102 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:58,280 And often with our regular sleep schedules and kind of crazy modern lifestyles, we tend 103 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,280 to have some circadian disruptions. 104 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:05,000 So when we start following a regular sleep schedule and we get that morning light, and 105 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:10,440 light is the strongest environmental signal to the circadian clock, then it's a way of 106 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:12,960 stabilizing the circadian system. 107 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:18,760 And that leads to a lot of health benefits across a broad spectrum of areas, including 108 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:20,880 pain, PTSD. 109 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,920 So yeah, we found morning light treatment to be useful across a broad spectrum of clinical 110 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:25,920 health disorders. 111 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:26,920 Very interesting. 112 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:34,880 Now, Dr. Allison, you are a clinical psychologist, and we were talking earlier about your time 113 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,200 at Rush University Medical Center. 114 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:43,440 But more specifically, you were the research director at the Center for Veteran and Family 115 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:47,440 Health, I think it was called, which was funded by the Wounded Warrior Project. 116 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:48,960 Do I have that basically right? 117 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:50,960 Yep, that's right. 118 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:57,960 And as a clinical psychologist, when this doctor of psychiatry came in with this crazy 119 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:03,760 idea on, hey, maybe morning light is helpful, what was your thinking? 120 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:05,080 Where did it take you? 121 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:06,680 Yeah, it's a great question. 122 00:09:06,680 --> 00:09:12,520 Because I will say at first I was a little bit skeptical, and I asked Helen to show me 123 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:16,160 the data that she had collected on veterans with low back pain. 124 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:21,680 And I was really surprised to see that for the veterans who had PTSD, they had what we'd 125 00:09:21,680 --> 00:09:23,720 call clinically meaningful improvements. 126 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:29,080 So they had enough of a symptom reduction that we think it would make a meaningful impact 127 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:30,480 in their lives. 128 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:36,160 And I was really surprised to see that and also really excited because my experience working 129 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:42,680 with veterans has shown that as much as I love psychotherapy, and I think psychotherapy 130 00:09:42,680 --> 00:09:47,280 is incredibly valuable in treating PTSD, we know it's effective. 131 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:51,160 It's often really hard for veterans to get it. 132 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:56,360 And so having alternative treatments that people can do in their own homes is just a 133 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,600 really exciting possibility. 134 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,440 And that's what really motivated me to start working with Helen on this project. 135 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:06,200 And I think you hit on a really important point over the years as we've talked to veterans 136 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:13,240 with PTSD and talked to various healthcare professionals about ways that this can be 137 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:14,720 worked on and managed. 138 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:16,640 Veterans are a very proud group. 139 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:22,480 First off, to go ask for help or even acknowledge the problem is the challenge we wanted to 140 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:23,980 get over. 141 00:10:23,980 --> 00:10:30,880 But having to go somewhere every three days a week, set times, some of this becomes so 142 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:34,160 rigid, there's not a lot of follow through. 143 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:43,200 So the idea that this might be a therapy that as you said had clinical meaningful reductions 144 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,040 is kind of exciting, isn't it, Dr. Ellison? 145 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:47,720 Yeah, absolutely. 146 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:53,640 I think it's really exciting because we know that we're going to need many different solutions 147 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:58,640 to tackle the problem of PTSD among veterans. 148 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:03,640 It's not going to be one thing that's going to kind of address all of the need. 149 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:11,280 And so the fact that morning light treatment is so accessible to people that they can, 150 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:15,440 it's commercially available, people can buy their own devices and use them in their own 151 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:21,320 homes is just really exciting in terms of potentially getting treatment to a lot more 152 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:22,320 people. 153 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:29,960 Dr. Helen Burgess, you had mentioned that your research initially was funded by, in 154 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:31,840 part by DOD. 155 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:39,520 I'm always curious as to what happens when the funding runs out? 156 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:44,120 The funder simply just put the report on the shelf and we never hear about it again? 157 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:51,560 Or talk to us a little bit about how your research and work has been maybe accepted 158 00:11:51,560 --> 00:11:54,120 or expanded upon. 159 00:11:54,120 --> 00:12:01,600 Yeah, so I guess the answer is when the funding runs out, hopefully by that point you've 160 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:07,880 completed the study, you publish it and then you use that as a launch pad to apply for 161 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:13,080 more funding is really how the cycle continues. 162 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:20,720 So that veteran study that Alison, that we worked on together and that, the chronic pain 163 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:28,640 study, the results, the changes in the PTSD symptoms, the improvements that we saw, Alison 164 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:37,160 and I then decided to run a small study, internal pilot study, specifically now testing the 165 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:44,320 morning light treatment in people with significant PTSD symptoms. 166 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:52,480 And that also showed some really nice results and then we used that study to apply for a 167 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:58,240 much larger NIH grant and that is what funded the current publication that is out there 168 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,360 in psychiatry research. 169 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:07,120 But I also want to point out that in science it's really important that results are reproduced 170 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:13,440 and ideally you have separate independent groups testing things and finding the same 171 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:17,760 kind of results and we're really excited that there's two other research groups actually 172 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:22,680 that have now published that morning light treatment can help with PTSD symptoms. 173 00:13:22,680 --> 00:13:23,680 You're absolutely right. 174 00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:25,040 It can't just be a one-off. 175 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:31,440 It's got to be replicable and to prove up that, hey, this wasn't just a fluke. 176 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:36,880 It really does work and the size of the study is always important. 177 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:44,800 So is this a study, Dr. Burgess, that has, are we talking 10 people, 100 people, 1,000 178 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:45,800 people? 179 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:50,560 It's sort of medium, I guess. 180 00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:55,600 I think that first study, Alison and I, I think there's only 15 people. 181 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,600 This is closer to 50. 182 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:04,800 And actually, Alison has taken the lead on, I think just last week, submitting a new 183 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:11,080 grant application to now start testing this in even a larger sample. 184 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:17,920 I think the largest sample so far in a single study has been around 70 people. 185 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,720 So we're at the stage where I think we need to start moving into logic clinical trials 186 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,880 of at least 100, maybe even a few hundred people. 187 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:32,760 Dr. Zolta, as you think about this and other groups are beginning to look at this as well, 188 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:42,600 can you comment about whether or not you've had any interaction with the VA national about 189 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:47,320 hey, we're interested, we're going to help, we're going to do more? 190 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:53,480 What's the, what's the temperature of how VA has looked at this as it might apply to 191 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:55,320 the patients it treats? 192 00:14:55,320 --> 00:15:02,600 Yeah, I'll say I haven't had direct conversations with folks at the VA. 193 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:08,320 And at the same time, I will say that the colleagues of mine, certainly that work with 194 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:15,480 veterans have been interested and excited to try to understand whether we can use this 195 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:21,280 as an alternative treatment or potentially to help boost the effects of the treatments 196 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,160 that we know work. 197 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:28,480 So I think there is some excitement as Helen said, we're kind of at the stage where we 198 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:36,800 need some of those larger trials to feel really very, very confident that this is the way 199 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:38,080 to go. 200 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:43,080 And I think once we have that then really trying to disseminate this treatment is going 201 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,040 to be a critical next step. 202 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:50,960 So much of science and medical research is international. 203 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:59,200 Has this morning light treatment or therapy, is it being used anywhere else in the world 204 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,600 here, Dr. Helen? 205 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:06,640 Yeah, yeah, it's used around the world. 206 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:13,120 Morning light treatment or therapy was first developed, as I mentioned, for winter depression, 207 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:17,240 or what sometimes we call seasonal effective disorder. 208 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:22,520 And certainly here in Michigan, we tend to experience higher rates of that than Alice 209 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:27,320 and maybe experiences in California. 210 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:33,640 But yes, I think after those initial trials, then most of the work has been done in what 211 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,160 we call non-seasonal depression. 212 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:44,080 So depression that is sort of year round and doesn't just pick up in the fall and in winter. 213 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:50,440 And there's now what we call meta-analyses, which are these publications in which they 214 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:56,120 go around and they combine the results of many, many, many different studies to kind 215 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:00,640 of help create a sort of global or average effect. 216 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:05,280 And there's been at least three of those now looking at morning light treatment for non-seasonal 217 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:12,000 depression and finding medium effect sizes, which means that morning light therapy is 218 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:17,560 as effective as pharmaceutical antidepressants. 219 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:24,000 But interestingly, the side effects of morning light therapy are really quite reduced compared 220 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,080 to these pharmacological treatments. 221 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:32,320 And the most significant one for morning light therapy would be headaches. 222 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:37,400 And the literature suggests, and it has certainly been, matches what we've experienced in our 223 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:45,200 trials, is that new headaches can start typically in the first week with the morning light therapy. 224 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,080 And some people say, that's enough for me. 225 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:48,080 This isn't for me. 226 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:49,640 And that's, of course, totally fine. 227 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:56,800 Other people say, well, the literature suggests if I stick it out, these headaches will disappear. 228 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,360 And certainly that is what they experience. 229 00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:03,280 So that is the number one side effect that we've noticed in our studies and fits the 230 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:04,480 rest of the literature. 231 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:09,640 But yeah, morning light therapy is used around the world. 232 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,480 Mostly I would say for depression. 233 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:18,440 The PTSD work, to our knowledge, has really been here within the US. 234 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:22,800 And we, as I mentioned, have also started to explore it in terms of the area of pain 235 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:23,800 as well. 236 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:25,240 Yeah, that's what I was going to ask. 237 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:30,760 Is it being used elsewhere for the low back pain, which is kind of where you started? 238 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:37,040 And did your research on low back pain and morning light therapy result in clinically 239 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:39,520 meaningful reduction in pain? 240 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:43,640 Yeah, we did see that with chronic low back pain. 241 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:50,880 That veteran study, as we described, kind of spun off into the work with Allison, looking 242 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,400 specifically at PTSD. 243 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:58,480 It was also a second spin off from that study, which was to focus more on people with chronic 244 00:18:58,480 --> 00:18:59,880 pain conditions. 245 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:05,600 And the one that we really ended up focusing on was fibromyalgia, which is a chronic widespread 246 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:07,760 pain condition. 247 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:13,520 And we were funded to run a small pilot study. 248 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:15,080 And that went quite well. 249 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:20,280 And then that moved on to a more medium sized study similar to this PTSD study that we've 250 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:21,800 just published. 251 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:26,120 And then going back and again requesting for more funding, now we're at the stage where 252 00:19:26,120 --> 00:19:32,320 we've just launched a clinical trial and it will be in 400 people with fibromyalgia. 253 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:37,400 And it's a fully remote trial, so we're enrolling people across the country. 254 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,480 And yeah, that will be our largest clinical trial to date testing morning light treatment 255 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:43,760 for a chronic pain condition. 256 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:51,080 And if people wanted to register for that study, is that something that they could do? 257 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:52,080 And it's so how? 258 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:59,160 Yeah, so a really useful resource for people if they're interested in participating in 259 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:09,480 what we call clinical research studies is you can go to clinicaltrials.gov, which is a website 260 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:13,080 run by NIH, the National Institutes of Health. 261 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:20,160 And you can enter in different search terms for different illnesses or studies that are 262 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,640 out there. 263 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:27,840 And you will find our study is registered there and there's contact information on there. 264 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:33,560 I guess another website being in Michigan that I would plug is the University of Michigan 265 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:40,560 also has what we call a research registry where people can sign up again interested 266 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,840 in participating in all kinds of different research. 267 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:49,600 And the website for that is umhealthresearch.org. 268 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:54,240 And they already have over about 80,000 people who have signed up on that. 269 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:59,880 And that is a huge help for all of the researchers at University of Michigan that are trying to 270 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:01,960 recruit participants for this study. 271 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:08,120 So certainly if anyone is interested in participating, that is also a great place to register at. 272 00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:15,760 Well, let me back up to something like, because I don't think we've fully explored this. 273 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:21,440 When I wear my morning light glasses, if that's what I'm wearing, I think you said I wear 274 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,360 them for like an hour a day. 275 00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:28,080 But do I have to do that for the rest of my life? 276 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:34,640 What's the process here for how long I'm in using the therapy? 277 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:43,800 And then how long does the results of less pain or less depression or less PTSD symptoms, 278 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:48,960 can you talk to us about how long that lasts, I suppose? 279 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:49,960 Yeah. 280 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,720 Now, those are great questions. 281 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:59,360 In the original Veterans study, we did track people for 30 days after the end of the light 282 00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:00,360 treatment. 283 00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:08,040 And I will say to my surprise, we still found some benefits in mood and pain and sleep 30 284 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:09,560 days later. 285 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:14,600 But you raise a really good question, which is, is this the therapy people need to do 286 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,280 every day once they're feeling better? 287 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,760 Can they maybe do it every second day or third day? 288 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:27,400 And this is exactly one of the questions that Allison is trying to answer in her new grant 289 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:34,520 submission to help us get a better handle on as this treatment starts to be disseminated 290 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:35,960 into the real world. 291 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:42,320 And we're all dealing with all these other things going on in our everyday life. 292 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:47,640 What should this long-term maintenance treatment start to look like after perhaps an acute treatment 293 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,520 period of every day once people improve? 294 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,800 How can we maintain those benefits without necessarily having to do the treatment every 295 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:55,800 day? 296 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:57,720 The answer right now is we just don't know. 297 00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:59,200 But we just don't have any. 298 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:00,200 I just knew. 299 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:05,920 I just knew, Dr. Zalta, I'd get to a point where you all said, we just need more research. 300 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,600 And that's what you're going to do. 301 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:15,080 I will add just to Helen's other prior response that, so different folks have tested different 302 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,320 lengths of treatment. 303 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,400 We've been testing four weeks every day. 304 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:25,160 So that's been kind of the dose that we've been, we looked at in one of our most recent 305 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:26,160 trials. 306 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:32,400 And Helen, I don't know if you can speak to kind of what the range of studies has tested 307 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:39,080 and why we think four weeks might be a good first try to see how that helps. 308 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:40,080 Yeah. 309 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:44,000 Yeah, there's one other study that did six weeks. 310 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:49,040 We ended up choosing four weeks, and we sort of consistently done that actually in a lot 311 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:50,360 of our studies. 312 00:23:50,360 --> 00:24:00,120 And that was mostly informed by those meta-analyses I referred to on non-seasonal depression, where 313 00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:06,720 they do show people start improving in the first week, but in studies that had a placebo, 314 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:12,080 they find that the significant difference between the placebo and morning light therapy 315 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:18,200 doesn't, on average, doesn't start to emerge until around weeks three and four. 316 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:23,440 And so that was the reason why we said, okay, we're going to do four weeks. 317 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,880 And so far, that has worked pretty well for us. 318 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:35,480 Now you said earlier, Dr. Burgess, that this is commercially available equipment, I suppose, 319 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:36,640 for morning light therapy. 320 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:42,480 And I guess if I went on my search engine or my favorite shopping site, I could find 321 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:49,880 somebody promoting some sort of glasses or screen or something for morning light therapy 322 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,920 for seasonal depra—seizful depression. 323 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:53,920 Yep. 324 00:24:53,920 --> 00:25:03,640 I got the term wrong there, but is there something you should put a asterisk on here 325 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:08,720 and say, it's this wavelength, it's this type, it's this—because I suspect there's 326 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:10,520 a lot of hucksters out there. 327 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,160 Yeah, no, that is a good question. 328 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:20,320 And it turns out that the circadian system is most sensitive to blue wavelengths of light. 329 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,720 So blue light in the morning is great. 330 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:29,280 We don't love blue light in the evening, which a lot of us get from our cell phones, 331 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,440 because in the evening we're trying to wind down for sleep. 332 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,560 And having a lot of blue light in the evening is making our brains think that it's morning 333 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,800 time, or at least daytime. 334 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:46,240 But I will say when the light gets bright enough and often light boxes, the intensity 335 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:54,080 is enough, you wouldn't necessarily see any larger effect compared to the amount of blue 336 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:58,520 light, for example, versus a really bright white light. 337 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:03,240 So recommendations would be, you know, some people actually really enjoy sitting in front 338 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,440 of a light box. 339 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,680 And our recommendations there go for something that's quite bright. 340 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:15,560 The companies will often market themselves as being around 10,000 lux. 341 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:16,560 They are bright. 342 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,000 They're not 10,000 lux at the level of the eye. 343 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,400 They're 10,000 lux at the level of the box. 344 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,960 But those marketed devices will work. 345 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:30,800 And we encourage large light boxes, not small ones, because a large light box means you 346 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,960 can move around a little bit in front of it and still get the light. 347 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:38,760 And it's also going to appear less glary, whereas if you have this smaller focal point 348 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:43,600 coming from a smaller light box, that sometimes can be a bit more unpleasant. 349 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:48,480 In terms of the wearable, I think it's fine to mention the device that we've used, because 350 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,440 we have no financial connection with the company at all. 351 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:56,320 It's actually a company originally coming out of Australia, believe it or not. 352 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,960 And it's called the Retimer Device. 353 00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:04,480 There are other wearable light treatment devices out there, and people should feel free to 354 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,320 take a look at those. 355 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:10,680 We kind of tested them all on ourselves, and we felt that the Retimer was the most comfortable 356 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,440 one. 357 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:17,000 And the Retimer company has recently come out with version three. 358 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:21,880 We use version two, which we like because it has an adjustable nose piece, which just 359 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:27,960 means if people wear glasses or they have different shaped heads, that there is a way 360 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:32,520 to move these glasses around a little bit and really look for the perfect fit. 361 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:38,120 But we always explain to participants in our studies that with the Retimer device, if it's 362 00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:43,280 positioned correctly, you'll essentially see a lot of blue-green light when you look in 363 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:49,920 the mirror around your eyes, under your eyebrows, almost sort of an oval circle around your 364 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:50,920 eyes. 365 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,880 And if you see that, then for sure you know that you're getting the light. 366 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,960 So there are a variety of options out there for people. 367 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:03,360 I think the main devices are available on Amazon, so that's usually a good place to 368 00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:04,760 go and at least take a look. 369 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,320 And people obviously can look at ratings and things and prices, things like that. 370 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:12,120 Well, this has been an interesting conversation. 371 00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:20,520 And when you kind of explain how it moved from seasonal defective disorder and depression 372 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:25,840 into the areas that may be of interest and help to veterans, it kind of all makes sense. 373 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:31,440 But unless you guys tied it together, I would never have thought of it. 374 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,680 And I'm not surprised more research is needed, right, Dr. 375 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:35,680 Zalta? 376 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:36,680 Absolutely. 377 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:45,000 Well, we thank both of you, Dr. Allison Zalta and Dr. Helen Burgess, for spending some time 378 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:53,120 with Veterans Radio today to explain this interesting research and hopefully a new at-home therapy 379 00:28:53,120 --> 00:29:00,920 that may be helpful to veterans on a number of fronts, from pain to better sleep to PTSD 380 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:01,920 symptoms. 381 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,520 It's all pretty exciting stuff. 382 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,960 And we look forward to hearing more as your research develops. 383 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,200 Thank you so much for having us. 384 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,200 Thank you very much, Jim. 385 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:13,200 Yeah. 386 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,680 Well, it certainly is interesting that something that's been around for a while, blue light 387 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:23,680 therapy, is getting focused on, hey, how can this help veterans? 388 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:28,800 And maybe more than, you know, most of us, we go through, it's wintertime, it's dark, 389 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,000 it's gray, it's kind of depressing. 390 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,560 Maybe we need to fix our mood with blue light as well. 391 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,240 So hopefully you found that interesting and they're doing more research and we'll find 392 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:43,800 out, you know, kind of the ways in which it might help veterans improve the quality 393 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:44,800 of their life. 394 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:52,360 And you can buy this stuff, these glasses online from any major retailer, e-retailer. 395 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,960 So hopefully that gives you something to look at. 396 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,600 Now after a few messages from sponsors, we're going to be back and we're going to talk about 397 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,680 PFAS. 398 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:06,600 It's important to know about, it's an area that's kind of developing. 399 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,240 So I think you're going to find the interview very interesting. 400 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,160 Military veterans touch everyone's life. 401 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:17,440 I'm guessing right now you're thinking of a veteran, a close friend, relative, maybe 402 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:18,560 it's you. 403 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:23,320 Even the toughest of us sometimes need help, but don't know where to turn for support. 404 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,880 You don't need special training to help a veteran in your life. 405 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,760 We can all help someone going through a difficult time. 406 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,920 Learn how you can be there for veterans. 407 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,800 Visit veteranscrisisline.net. 408 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,800 Veteranscrisisline.net. 409 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,760 A message from the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs. 410 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,600 If you have a VA claim denied by the Board of Veterans Appeals, contact Legal Help for 411 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,840 Veterans at 1-800-693-4800. 412 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,880 They're experts in handling cases before the U.S. Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims. 413 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:56,560 Their number again, 1-800-693-4800. 414 00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:02,000 We want to welcome to Veterans Radio today Brandy Hill. 415 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:08,080 Dr. Brandy Hill, she is going to talk to us about a subject we've talked about before 416 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:14,640 on Veterans Radio, and that is Veterans Exposure to PFAS Chemicals, sometimes known as the 417 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,640 Forever Chemicals. 418 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,400 Brandy, welcome to Veterans Radio. 419 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,680 Well, thank you so much, Jim. 420 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,360 It's a pleasure to be here with you and all of your listeners. 421 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,080 Well, we appreciate the time you're making for us. 422 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:32,400 We know you're traveling, and getting this in is really timely. 423 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:37,440 So you have a doctorate in public health, as well as a master's in public health, which 424 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:44,720 and you've done some writing on the cumulative exposure to PFAS substances impacting veteran 425 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,600 cancer diagnosis, which we'll talk about. 426 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:52,720 But before we get there, tell us why you're interested in veteran health issues and a 427 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,720 little bit of your background. 428 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,400 Yeah, no worries. 429 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:57,400 Thank you so much. 430 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:06,040 So on a 25-year U.S. Air Force veteran I retired back in 2019, the entire time I spent working 431 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:07,840 in a military medical facility. 432 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:14,080 So I spent my years there managing teams of individuals who were enabling superior healthcare 433 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,600 for all of the military members, as well as their families. 434 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:22,080 But after I did my retirement, I decided I wanted to be a health educator. 435 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,120 So off to go work as a health educator I did. 436 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:31,880 But I left to continue to make a mark and impact specifically on military members. 437 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:38,360 So my husband and I, we have three wonderful children, 27, 23, and 18. 438 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:43,360 My oldest son serves in the military, as well as his wife serves in the military, and they 439 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:47,880 are the parents of my fantastic 18-month-old grandson. 440 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:54,160 So it's a family concern for us, with my husband's background and my background, and both of 441 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,680 our fathers also serving, both of their fathers serving. 442 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:03,520 You can see how this extrapolates as a thought process for us to kind of go after. 443 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:08,880 But during my active duty time, education became a huge priority. 444 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:16,080 So although I started a slow road to progress, if you will, my pathway was a winery one. 445 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:21,080 So I originally started out as a logistician in the Air Force, which doesn't seem like 446 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,720 it has any kind of impact to health. 447 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,720 However, I was deploying and doing a whole bunch of humanitarian missions. 448 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:32,720 And during those humanitarian missions, my job as a logistician was to also act like 449 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:34,680 a pseudo-pharmacy tech. 450 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:40,600 So my job was to hand out and deliver pharmaceuticals to the community members that we were serving. 451 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:46,040 With that, I became interested in pharmacology, so I decided to go after my certified pharmacist. 452 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,000 Pharmacy tech certification. 453 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:54,880 So once I got that, I started doing some time in the pharmacy and realized that pharmaceuticals 454 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:59,480 were just a really good way of us to continue to treat symptoms, but maybe not get after 455 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:00,480 root causes. 456 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:06,120 So then I decided to head on over to the nutrition world, where I got my bachelor's in nutritional 457 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:07,120 medicine. 458 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:11,440 Then I found out nobody really wanted to listen to a dietitian, right? 459 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:12,440 Yes. 460 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:18,720 In addition to that, it all really boils down to education. 461 00:34:18,720 --> 00:34:24,040 And the more we know, the more we grow and knowledge is power and iron sharpens iron. 462 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:30,360 So that's why I went after my MPH and got my master's in public health. 463 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:36,000 Well, on top of that, I decided what really mattered to me was being able to help educate 464 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:37,000 others. 465 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,120 And so I wanted to be able to do independent research. 466 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:44,360 In order to do successful independent research, I needed to get my doctorate. 467 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,280 And so that is why I went after my doctorate public health. 468 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,880 And this kind of leads us up to where I am today. 469 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:58,040 Well, it's a typical story of somebody who gets started in one road, and then as you 470 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,040 say, it's kind of a windy road where you end up. 471 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:05,320 Life is rarely a straight line, and we have to embrace all those curves along the way. 472 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:11,760 So I wanted that outlined because I want our veteran radio listeners to understand that 473 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,760 your interest in this area is personal. 474 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:15,760 It's with passion. 475 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:21,080 It's not just some, sometimes we talk to these PhDs, doctors, and it's kind of very 476 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:22,080 egg-heady. 477 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:28,360 But there's more here because of your family and life experiences. 478 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,040 But let's start with the basics. 479 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:34,360 As I said, we've talked about it before, but I'm sure not everybody understands what 480 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,880 PFAS chemicals or forever chemicals are all about. 481 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,880 Can you give us a thumbnail sketch of that? 482 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:41,880 Surely. 483 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:48,080 So PFASs or Pyrrhoin polythloral alkali synthesis, that's a whole lot to say. 484 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,800 But they really originated back in the 1950s. 485 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:57,120 And in the 1960s when they got their first patent, which is fantastic, and they were 486 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:03,800 really useful for a whole lot of things, such as your normal nonstick cookware. 487 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:10,440 The item or the spray that you put on furniture to keep it water resistant or soil resistant. 488 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:14,720 So it's pretty much in everything we touch on an everyday basis. 489 00:36:14,720 --> 00:36:17,360 There's thousands of these chemicals. 490 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,840 The unfortunate part about these chemicals though is they are forever and have been deemed 491 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:26,640 as the forever chemical because there's really no way to get rid of them. 492 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:34,880 Interestingly enough, the AFFF, which is the firefighting foam that's so proliferant around 493 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:42,640 Air Force bases, specifically our military installations that may have JPA or other fuel 494 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:47,600 fires, that was actually patented in 1966. 495 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:52,160 And we started using it in petroleum based firefighting in 1970s. 496 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,440 And these are band made chemicals? 497 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,680 They are band made chemicals, yes. 498 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:02,800 And they don't have a natural breakdown process, if I understand it. 499 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:08,280 No, that's why they're forever because there's no way for our environment to really just 500 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,000 get rid of them and flush them away. 501 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:18,880 And so when they do offsluff into other parts of our environment, our water, our soil, there 502 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:26,000 they stay to contaminate things like the cows that graze on the grass, the water inside 503 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:32,520 your lake, seep into our water drinking systems. 504 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:40,240 You just pointed out these have been around now maybe 40, 60, 60 some years maybe in commercial 505 00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:45,600 practice, which in the real world, it really isn't that long. 506 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:50,240 It's better living through chemicals approach. 507 00:37:50,240 --> 00:37:53,880 They're great when they start and then we use them for two or three or four decades and 508 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,480 then find out, hmm, there are some side effects. 509 00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:01,040 Is that kind of what's going on here? 510 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:02,040 For sure. 511 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:06,000 So originally it was like, oh, look at this, it's really awesome. 512 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,520 And then they found out like, oh yeah, hey by the way, this also can cause or has been 513 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:17,320 linked to cancer, liver, damage, immune system changes, all of these not so wonderful benefits 514 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,480 of this very helpful substance. 515 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:28,400 But if you go back and do some research, you can find where some of the leading companies 516 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:34,560 who were making this and distributing it way back in the heyday had some indication that 517 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:39,760 this was probably not safe for people. 518 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:44,880 You did the research, that's why we have you on and you wrote, as I say, your dissertation 519 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:50,080 was cumulative exposure to, and I'm just going to call them PFAS impacting veteran cancer 520 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,600 diagnosis is the title of this. 521 00:38:52,600 --> 00:39:01,400 And you used a particular data set, this 10 year data set to examine these relationships. 522 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:07,800 Tell us what you were, what you went in thinking and what you kind of came out thinking. 523 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:13,720 So I went in thinking, you know, I'm surrounded by people in my life who served in various 524 00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:20,000 different ways in the military, and a lot of them, the alarming rate of them have had 525 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,080 some sort of cancer. 526 00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:28,920 And so I wanted to figure out, is there a linkage to perhaps where we are, what we're 527 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:35,240 doing and what kind of exposures we may have? 528 00:39:35,240 --> 00:39:43,400 And so, anyways, that's what I went in thinking was, can I find a linkage to exposure? 529 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:48,600 And then what I found out was, there are some very interesting linkages. 530 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:57,120 So for one, military service members are actually 11% more inclined to have some sort of cancer 531 00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:58,360 diagnosis. 532 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:04,640 Additionally, it's been noted that with certain different kinds of cancers, it's actually 533 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:12,480 25 to 40% higher in veterans than it is in the civilian sector. 534 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,880 And so that's why it was so important for me to be able to do this research and kind 535 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:21,320 of find out what is going on. 536 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:26,920 Now when I did use, like you said, a publicly available data set, this was not a data set 537 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:33,880 that was actually given to me by the DOD or it's not specific military information. 538 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:41,520 It came straight from the NHATES, which is a national representative data set. 539 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:51,760 I used the years 2005 to 2015 to really kind of underscore, looking at a 10-year area, 540 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,520 what kind of diagnosis is people getting? 541 00:40:54,520 --> 00:41:01,560 And what I found in that was that there was quite the interest. 542 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:07,800 So you know, cancer alone, there's about 450,000 veterans suffering with diagnosis of cancer. 543 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,960 There's about 50,000 added each year. 544 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:16,840 So you can tell that that's pretty impressive to get that many people. 545 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:24,320 Now looking specifically at PFAS, there was 24 DOD drinking water systems with 564 surrounding 546 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:31,240 areas that actually were a higher level of PFAS than what you're supposed to have according 547 00:41:31,240 --> 00:41:33,240 to the EPA allowable limits. 548 00:41:33,240 --> 00:41:35,160 So that's crazy. 549 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:42,640 And then looking at another statistic, so there was 12 times higher the PFAS serum concentrations 550 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:47,640 in US veterans than US population. 551 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:49,520 So what could that all come from? 552 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:55,960 You know, you're looking at a higher risk of disease, you're looking at a higher PFAS 553 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,080 serum concentration. 554 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,080 Where is this all boiling down from? 555 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:04,960 So this is kind of where I was starting to look at. 556 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:12,520 What I wanted to really find out though was prostate cancer, liver damage, thyroid disease. 557 00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:18,320 These were the ones that I was like specifically looking and doling into. 558 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:26,400 And I want to stop for a minute because exposure to PFAS in the military can come from all kinds 559 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:32,520 of different vectors you've mentioned contaminated groundwater, but it's a lot more than just 560 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:33,520 that, isn't it? 561 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:34,520 Yes, yes. 562 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:39,520 So contaminated groundwater, you've got the firefighting foam I had mentioned earlier. 563 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:45,000 Then you've got to look at all of the different has and solutions that our service members 564 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,040 are actually subjected to. 565 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,040 So those are unique. 566 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:56,640 Then you top that off with the fact that the average adult only moves 11 times in their 567 00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:57,640 entire life. 568 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:02,920 Well, a service member is going to change their environment every four to six years. 569 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,200 So this was really interesting. 570 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:10,480 This is the part when I read your paper, I went, I didn't think about it this way, the 571 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,440 cumulative exposure. 572 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,440 Continue talk to us about that. 573 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:22,240 So every environment that you impact or that you come across is going to actually impact 574 00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:23,240 your health. 575 00:43:23,240 --> 00:43:27,560 So the Environmental Protection Agency has said environmental hazards, they encompass 576 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:33,120 our physical, biological, chemical, cultural and social aspects, and all of them can be 577 00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:38,400 associated with adverse outcomes like cancers and cardiovascular disease. 578 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,640 That's straight from the EPA in 2022. 579 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:47,240 So when you think about the fact that we are changing our locations, we're changing our 580 00:43:47,240 --> 00:43:51,480 environments every four to six years. 581 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:57,560 And then couple that with for one of the mill, a few handfuls or so deployments for each 582 00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,920 person, you've changed your environment so many times. 583 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:06,520 And in each of those places, you're going to live in a circumstance or a surrounding 584 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:12,240 area to a base that may or may not have the same situation as the base, you're going to 585 00:44:12,240 --> 00:44:19,040 be moving potentially to a different country that has completely different rules of engagement 586 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:20,840 when it comes to what you're doing. 587 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,080 And then you throw in the deployment hazards. 588 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:29,680 So it's very important to look at the environment in a holistic sense. 589 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:36,480 So not just, oh, well, people lived someplace, but where did you live and how did you live 590 00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:41,760 and how do we really kind of look at that? 591 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:48,240 How does a private doctor, medical doctor, when looking at a veteran even sort out what 592 00:44:48,240 --> 00:44:52,280 those exposures, cumulative exposures might have been? 593 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:56,840 And I guess that leads to, is like, there a test for this? 594 00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:00,120 So that is a very, very good question. 595 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,720 And it was one of the questions that I had myself. 596 00:45:02,720 --> 00:45:07,400 So when you're looking at it and you think you go to the doctor, the first thing the 597 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,880 doctor is going to ask you is about your health history. 598 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:17,920 But they're going to ask specifically about have you smoked, do you drink, has your dad 599 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,000 had the photo, that's a particular issue. 600 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,960 They don't ask you where you've been and what you've been exposed to. 601 00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:33,280 But we know that the environment really adds to your health as a holistic power. 602 00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:39,320 So no, there isn't a way right now for that to be part of it. 603 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:44,000 But if you go and you research, which I did, and there's a thing it's called precision 604 00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:51,640 medicine and precision medicine is all about really understanding a person as a whole and 605 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,600 not just a sum of symptoms. 606 00:45:54,600 --> 00:46:00,560 So understanding where have you been, what have you been exposed to, you know, what, 607 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:06,160 not just what your health history is in your family health history, like looking at the 608 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:14,040 total big picture, because each person is a puzzle and we are all very unique, especially 609 00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:15,520 when it comes to exposures. 610 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:23,000 So we're talking veteran radio listeners to Dr. Brandy Hill, who has her PhD in public 611 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:24,000 health. 612 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:30,920 She studied and wrote on the cumulative exposure of PFASs impacting veteran diagnosis. 613 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:36,720 And we are not going to ask her about the tools she used, such as Pearson correlations 614 00:46:36,720 --> 00:46:43,080 and multiple linear regression, because I don't even know how to ask those questions 615 00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:45,160 and I wouldn't understand the answers. 616 00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:51,760 But I think it's important for our veteran radio listeners to understand the complexity 617 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:56,600 of how PFAS exposure may be impacting them. 618 00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:03,080 And I want to use this point to jump in and say, VA has recently announced that it's going 619 00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:10,400 to do more research in the area of linking kidney cancer and exposure to PFASs on military 620 00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:11,400 bases. 621 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:17,960 And if they make that link, it could be very beneficial for veterans. 622 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:22,000 If that becomes a presumptive and it's much easier to get VA benefits. 623 00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:26,160 But I want to make the point, it's only kidney cancer they're looking at. 624 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:30,480 And you just gave me a whole list of things that you looked at. 625 00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:35,840 So is kidney cancer just too small of a universe to be looking at, Dr. Hill? 626 00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:39,720 Well, so you've got to start somewhere, right? 627 00:47:39,720 --> 00:47:44,200 And when it comes to the VA, especially when they're looking at the presumptive, they've 628 00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,200 got to start somewhere. 629 00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:49,360 And there is so many things that are listed. 630 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:56,320 I mean, even testicular cancer is listed as a possible problem, a possible health implication 631 00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:57,720 of PFAS. 632 00:47:57,720 --> 00:48:02,080 And that actually came out like many years ago. 633 00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:06,960 I mean, this was researched on in 2018 by a colleague. 634 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:11,240 So this information is out there, but you have to start somewhere. 635 00:48:11,240 --> 00:48:14,840 And we're just starting to stretch the surface. 636 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:20,840 So I think that's really important because if you look at what's really happened over 637 00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:27,400 the last couple of years and look at the past act, they're starting to really go back to 638 00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:32,600 something that was in the military when I first came in back in 1995. 639 00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:34,840 So that's a long, long time ago. 640 00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:40,080 But we had what was called PPIP, which is put prevention and practice. 641 00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:45,160 That was a whole military medical solution set. 642 00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,080 And we're starting to go back to that. 643 00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:51,560 We're starting to look at what are the things that impact our health. 644 00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:56,600 And we're scratching the surface to see if we can provide those linkages so that we can 645 00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:59,720 get after our future health. 646 00:48:59,720 --> 00:49:04,680 Because if we can identify things, even if it's just starting with kidney cancer and 647 00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:11,760 then moving on to other cancers such as testicular, prostate, liver damage, thyroid disease, we'll 648 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:18,440 be able to scratch the surface more and try and hopefully get more and more of these things 649 00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,880 connected and get the veterans the care that they deserve. 650 00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:22,880 Yeah. 651 00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:23,880 And you have to bring it. 652 00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:24,880 I agree with you. 653 00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,120 You got to start somewhere and you have to bring it to attention of people, including 654 00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:32,480 those private doctors I was mentioning that may not, you know, so few people serve in 655 00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:36,720 the military, so few medical people serve in the military, wouldn't even know how to 656 00:49:36,720 --> 00:49:38,440 ask maybe the right questions. 657 00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:45,680 And even today, I saw an article that came out where out of the University of Southern 658 00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:52,680 California looking at PFAS levels in the blood of young adults, 19 to 24, they found those 659 00:49:52,680 --> 00:50:01,520 in the highest levels of PFAS in their blood had a sleep problem, a sleep deprivation problem, 660 00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:07,760 sleep disorder and we know in the military sleeps like a critical and often interrupted 661 00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:12,520 in a lot of different ways, but you also have to wonder like, hmm, I wonder if any of it's 662 00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:13,800 environmental. 663 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:18,040 So there's a lot of room for more research, isn't there, Dr. Hill? 664 00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:20,280 Yes, there really is. 665 00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:25,440 And you know, like I said before, we're just starting to scratch the surface into, you 666 00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:30,920 know, these things and the problems that they've caused and how we can get around them. 667 00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:35,480 I mean, if you think about it, like you said earlier, you know, the 1960s really wasn't 668 00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:39,200 that long ago, you know, in the grand scheme of things. 669 00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:44,840 And so we're just now starting to see these implications and being able to really put 670 00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:52,400 together that picture because it takes time, you know, exposure to, to answers, it takes 671 00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:59,320 time and you have to get enough people, unfortunately, to participate in the studies in order to 672 00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:04,760 get the information and really uncover where those connective tissues are. 673 00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:09,360 Because without enough people, you know, like you said, the military members are, it's a 674 00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,640 very small amount of the population. 675 00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:15,680 And so we have to get more data. 676 00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:21,200 Well that's answered like a true doctorate in public health and research. 677 00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:23,040 You always need more data. 678 00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:28,360 But again, I think it's great that you can explain this in layman's terms to our veteran 679 00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:29,360 radio listeners. 680 00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:36,480 And I often get to ask those we interview about, you know, their, their experiences in the 681 00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:42,680 military and if they would still recommend to sons and daughters and nieces and nephews 682 00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:44,440 going in the military. 683 00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:49,040 I do this because we have such a recruiting crisis going on. 684 00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:51,480 But you've kind of already answered that. 685 00:51:51,480 --> 00:52:01,560 I take it you were very supportive of your son and his wife being in the military. 686 00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:03,240 Oh, for sure. 687 00:52:03,240 --> 00:52:04,240 Yes. 688 00:52:04,240 --> 00:52:07,400 I'm, I'm a huge supporter of military service. 689 00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:13,000 I think that everybody could really get some valuable lessons, whether it's four years 690 00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:14,680 or 25 years. 691 00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:17,720 You can really learn a lot about yourself. 692 00:52:17,720 --> 00:52:22,280 You can really grow as a person and understand the systems of our country. 693 00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,080 I, you know, I couldn't recommend it more. 694 00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:32,320 Additionally, it gives you so much if you give it to the service because I learned a 695 00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:35,640 whole lot of different locations. 696 00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:39,240 I was able to see things from a different point of view. 697 00:52:39,240 --> 00:52:46,600 I really kind of grow my goals and not to mention I got all the way through my master's 698 00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:50,280 degree and never paid for school. 699 00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:56,120 I mean that to me is a huge thing because there's so many people in debt for education. 700 00:52:56,120 --> 00:53:00,440 Yeah, there's great opportunities there and we shouldn't scare people off. 701 00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:02,040 They should really explore it. 702 00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:06,080 And once you get in, as you saw, you don't know where your career is going to take you, 703 00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:09,160 but it may take you somewhere where you're really happy you ended up. 704 00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:12,800 So it's a great opportunity. 705 00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:19,200 Katie Hill, thank you for taking some time to us to explain PFAS and cumulative exposure 706 00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:24,440 and the research that's being going on to make sure we understand how that exposure 707 00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:26,040 is impacting veterans. 708 00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:27,520 Okay, fantastic. 709 00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:29,480 Thank you so much. 710 00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:36,200 And just to kind of give you a preview of what my next study is, not that you may or 711 00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:42,600 may not want to know this, but my next study is again specifically pointing out veterans 712 00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,720 because they're again my population of choice. 713 00:53:45,720 --> 00:53:51,280 But I'm going to be looking into Parkinson's and occupational hazards. 714 00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:52,280 Very interesting. 715 00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:53,680 Well, we look forward to when that's done. 716 00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:56,280 Maybe we can talk again. 717 00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:57,280 Sounds great. 718 00:53:57,280 --> 00:53:58,280 Thank you so much, Jim. 719 00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:02,560 And again, thank you so much to your listeners for letting me spend the last couple of minutes 720 00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,080 with you. 721 00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:12,800 So a lot of interesting work being done to assist and help veterans with the effect of 722 00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:13,800 combat. 723 00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:19,200 You know, I don't think we quite appreciate what all those impacts are until many years 724 00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:20,200 later. 725 00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:25,720 And that's why you need such a wide array of therapies that will work for some, may not 726 00:54:25,720 --> 00:54:27,160 work for others. 727 00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:30,800 And then there are exposures like with PFAS chemicals. 728 00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:39,520 She's DOD, VA, the world at large is just sort of figuring what all this means and figuring 729 00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:40,640 it out. 730 00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:46,280 And we can't bring you these stories, this information that you need to know with the 731 00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:52,840 assistance of our sponsors, including the National Vietnam Veterans of America, the 732 00:54:52,840 --> 00:55:03,000 VFW, Graph O'Haraup, VFW Post 423, the American Legion, Erwin Presscorn Post 46, and the VVA 733 00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:04,000 H.R. 734 00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:09,120 USS Kettles Chapter 310 in Ann Arbor, Michigan. 735 00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:15,080 Dale will be back next week with more stories, more information that veterans and family 736 00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:18,120 and friends ought to know about. 737 00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:21,720 It certainly is that time of year where you can get a little depressed. 738 00:55:21,720 --> 00:55:23,240 Don't let that happen. 739 00:55:23,240 --> 00:55:24,920 Reach out to your buddies. 740 00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:29,040 If you know somebody out there who's a little vulnerable, now is the time to call them and 741 00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:31,480 say, hey, did you get through the season? 742 00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:33,000 How you doing? 743 00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:34,320 Springs around the corner. 744 00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:35,720 Keep optimistic. 745 00:55:35,720 --> 00:55:39,920 And I think those are the kind of messages we have to keep telling our brothers and sisters 746 00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:42,080 in arms not to give up. 747 00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:44,800 That's the only way to drive that suicide number down. 748 00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:51,120 I also want to always thank our national sponsors, National Veterans Business Development 749 00:55:51,120 --> 00:56:00,880 Council, NVBDC.org, PuroClean.com, and LegalHelp4Veterns.com. 750 00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:04,240 Very much necessary to keep us on the air. 751 00:56:04,240 --> 00:56:07,520 I'm Jim Fosso and it's been a pleasure to be your host today. 752 00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:09,320 As I said, Dale will be back next time. 753 00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:14,480 You can find out more about us on our website, veteransradio.org. 754 00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:18,040 We have a pretty active Facebook post. 755 00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:24,120 And we post new podcast stories every Tuesday at 11 a.m. Eastern. 756 00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:28,760 You can find those new programs on any of your favorite platforms. 757 00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:33,040 So go to Spotify or YouTube. 758 00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:36,600 Line us up and subscribe to us as a favorite and stay with us. 759 00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:42,520 And until next time on Veterans Radio, this is Jim Fosso, an officer of the deck signing 760 00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:43,520 out. 761 00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:47,600 And you are dismissed.