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All across America and around the world, this is Veterans Radio.

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This is Veterans Radio.

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Welcome to Veterans Radio.

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I am Jim Fossone.

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I'm the officer of the deck today.

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We've got some great programs for you.

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We always want to remind you you can find more about Veterans Radio at its Facebook

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site or at the web veteransradio.org where we're on the web 24-7.

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You can find a lot of our podcasts there as well.

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We post new ones every Tuesday so you can get a new story, a new interview, something

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you didn't know before by going to veteransradio.org.

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And before we get started, we want to thank our sponsors.

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Next up we want to thank National Veteran Business Development Council, NVBDC.org.

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It was established to certify both service disabled and veteran owned businesses.

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You'll find out how they can help your business by going to NVBDC.org.

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We want to thank Legal Help for Veterans.

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Legal Help for Veterans fights for veterans disability rights all across the nation.

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You can reach them at 800-693-4800 or on the web at legalhelpforveterans.com.

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And finally, PuroClean.

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PuroClean is the paramedics of property damage.

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It provides water damage remediation, flood water removal, fire and smoke damage remediation,

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mold removal, biohazard cleanup.

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It also has a focus on veteran franchisees.

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You can learn more about them by going to puroclean.com.

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We want to welcome to Veterans Radio today a couple of gentlemen who have got a book

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out coming in January 2025 called Warrior to Civilian, the Field Manual for the Hero's

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Journey.

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It's got a lot of interesting ideas in it and we're glad to have the authors with us.

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We have Lieutenant Rob Sarver, US Naval Academy graduate in 2004.

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He got out in 2013.

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We'll talk a little bit about his career.

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But Rob, welcome to Veterans Radio.

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Thank you.

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Thank you for having me.

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And we have Alex Genzier.

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He's a high-profile New York lawyer with ties to the military.

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He didn't serve himself, but he's got a son who did and he's been involved in a number

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of pro bono veteran groups.

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Alex, welcome to Veterans Radio.

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Jim, thank you.

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Great to be with you.

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Well, let's start with Rob.

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How did a nice kid like you end up at the Naval Academy?

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Through a lot of trials and errors.

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I actually attended Virginia Military Institute for a year before transferring to the Naval

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Academy.

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I had to retake my SATs numerous times and then it was actually my GPA, my undergrad

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studies that got me into the Naval Academy on the second attempt.

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And you just couldn't find enough discipline at VMI.

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You said, I need more.

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I want to go to the Naval Academy.

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I needed to do a second year of indoctrination and more pushups.

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You're exactly right.

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Okay.

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And as I said at the outset, you did 10 years in service.

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I think I read seven deployments, including three tours in support of Operation Iraqi

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Freedom, two tours in support of Operation Enduring Freedom.

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Along the way, you said, this isn't enough.

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I want to be a Navy SEAL.

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And you went through that whole process and ended up on SEAL Team 3, I believe.

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Yes, that's correct.

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So you get done with all of this, 10 years into it, and you say to yourself, time to

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go into the civilian world, you go on and earn an MBA from the University of Pennsylvania's

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Warren School of Business, and you're involved in the financial markets for a number of years

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and also involved in nonprofits for a number of years.

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Tell us a little bit about that transition as you moved from the rigor of military life

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into academic life into civilian life.

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Yes, getting out, I wasn't pushing or urging for my parents to go kind of get checked out

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after so many combat deployments, so many friends being lost in combat, also friends

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of dying in training accidents.

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They really urged me to go speak to someone candidly.

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And I think it was probably the first time I was honest with anyone who's going and sticking

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down with psychiatrists inside Naval Special Warfare and really having that heart-to-heart

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conversation and never, coming out of the conversation was I had never processed really

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any of these deaths.

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I just kind of packaged it, compartmentalized, moved on, said I was good, so I could continue

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to operate, continue to deploy.

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And everything kind of came to the surface.

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So as I was getting out, I said, okay, Rob, you've been through a lot.

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You're susceptible to developing or having PTSD.

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Well, I did what everybody else does when they get out.

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I took that paper, stuck it in my physical medical record that I made a copy of, and

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I walked out the door and never looked at it again.

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Until two years into my transition out, things started coming unraveling.

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A lot of things started coming to a head.

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I was looking at possible ones who were divorced.

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Then I pulled that paperwork back out and I said, okay, I should have prepped.

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I should have done more before I got out.

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Maybe I wouldn't be having these problems right now.

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And it's not unusual.

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We talked to a lot of veterans as a transition out.

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It takes a number of years, and I'm going to come back to that as how it relates to

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the book, Warrior to Civilian.

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But Alex, let's turn to your story a little bit about what motivated, you know, writing

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a book is not easy.

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Getting interviews with folks is not easy.

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Give us a little bit of why this became a passion project for you, because it's not

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like you didn't have enough to do as a big firm New York lawyer.

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Yeah, I do appreciate it, and it's not obvious.

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The story began, I've got two boys, and they're 20 and 24, and they are a center of my life.

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And when the older one told me, and we had a long talk about it, about him joining the

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military and he wanted to leave his undergraduate college in Virginia to go to the Naval Academy,

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and his dream is to follow in Rob's footsteps.

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It dawned on me that I had wanted to serve at a few points in my life, and I have not

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had that honor.

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And I felt that this was his calling.

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The clarity with which he spoke, the motivation to serve things bigger than himself was inspiring,

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and it was something that gave me great pause, because I had to figure out as a father how

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to help him.

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And the way I thought about it was, I think he's going to be hardcore.

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He's very serious, he's very devoted.

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I think he'll be in for a long time.

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I think he'll do more than his 20.

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And there's a pretty good chance that I won't be around.

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You don't know.

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And so I wanted him to have something on his way out that would help him, because it became

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very clear to me that this transition, this major life transition, which we'll come back

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to in a moment, is one of the most significant life transitions that happens to anyone in

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our society.

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And so this coincided with Rob and my working together.

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We started having weekly calls for a bunch of reasons.

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You start talking about life and your own life and comparing notes.

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And we developed a friendship and a way of thinking about life that, despite having come

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from very different backgrounds and life experiences, there was great commonality.

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There was a shared humanity in it.

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And that became not just the idea for a 10-page memo for my son, but the idea of what we

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could do to serve others.

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And frankly, this is a historic time in our country's history.

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There have never been this many veterans and spouses alive.

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There's 22 million vets alive today.

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Half of them from the last 20 years wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

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And there's about 15 million spouses and family members.

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This is not a niche group in our country, apart from their significance, apart from the fact

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that they have stood on the wall for us and they do.

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And I think that Rob and I began to think of this with some inputs from some very influential

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people like General Petraeus and General McChrystal about doing something.

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And once the aperture of our focus broadened and we started interviewing vets, which we're

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happy to talk about, and there's spouses, I think the sense of mission and opportunity

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to serve came into focus.

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And I would say over the last five years, having Rob and I done research and interviews

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of hundreds of people, I think for both of us, this has become the dominating passion

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and commitment about which we want to make a contribution.

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That's a heck of a long answer, Jim, but that's my answer.

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No problem.

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I mean, it really is an interesting approach because it's titled the Field Manual, and

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we in the service all know that, you know, you go to the book, you find out what SOP is

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supposed to be, but there really isn't an SOP for transition.

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And transition takes a lot of time.

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It's not a one week thing.

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Talk a little bit about Rob, how, you know, you shouldn't begin your transition the day

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you hang up your uniform.

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You should start thinking about it earlier.

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So tell us a little bit about what you're thinking there is.

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So we wrote this looking at this as a 12 to 24 month process of getting out.

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And the chapter one in the book is everything you would expect from the preparatory commands

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you hear in the military.

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It is the preparatory of the book.

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Start thinking 12 to 24 months out.

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But I think we had a wonderful opportunity and had thrown a great relationship with Tom

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Satterley.

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He was the command master sergeant of Delta Force.

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He was a mother to issue, and he says it very eloquently that you do all this training

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in the military.

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Why would you not try to get out for one of the biggest life transitions you're going

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to have?

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And this is a very, very good point.

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So that's something we'd like to pass on to folks is you have to train for this.

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You have to prepare to get out.

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Over 70% of that's come forward and say that they'd go with a major life stress in getting

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out of the military.

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So doing the full preparation to get out, finding the mentor, starting speaking to everybody.

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We also give a great framework to think about is if you're at the very initial stage of

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this, just ask yourself four questions.

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What region do I want to live in?

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What industry do I want to work in?

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What function do I want to serve in that industry?

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And what type of community do I want to be a part of?

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So we give a lot of different frameworks to think about this as they're moving through.

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But I would say as the field manual, yes, it is a preparatory for you to start thinking

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about this 12 to 24 months out.

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Well, I love the idea.

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The phrase train to get out.

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I've not heard that before, but it's so accurate.

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People wait too long and then they flounder around for a while.

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Could you address some of the issues that interrupt or delay transition, a successful

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transition from loss and grieving, substance abuse, moral injury, physical injury, PTSD,

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TBI?

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Alex, can you talk about why talking about those problems, those situations impacted

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your view on the model for transition?

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You bet.

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If you don't mind for 10 seconds, let me just supplement your last conversation.

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So it's a field manual, most importantly, for what Rob said.

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But in the grand scheme of things, we touch on every aspect and phase of the transition

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for the veteran and unique to our book, if you don't mind my putting it that way, we

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have an extensive chapter for spouses and family members.

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It's unique because while there's some good articles and there's some very good folks

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out there working on the issue of military spouses, ours is the only book that has a

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full chapter dedicated to it that is a result of years of research.

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Yeah, I'm going to come back around to that because I do think that's unique and important.

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Yeah, for sure.

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But let me answer your question.

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There's an aspect of transition to civilian life and integration, for example, to companies

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that is premised on, is based on one's ability to be functioning.

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And if given the amount of wounds of war, whether visible or invisible, that exists in

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our veteran population, and I'm saying that as a statistically or historically accurate

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thing that has to be addressed, we do not treat veterans in our book.

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We do not believe veterans are somehow troubled.

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It's the opposite.

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We believe they are a source of inspiration and leadership in our country that is not

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fully appreciated.

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However, in any aspect of healing, in our book covers both very important conventional

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ones as well as innovative and alternative therapies, cutting edge therapies about PTSD

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and TBI, an essential aspect of all those things, as well as the frameworks for reintegration.

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There's an aspect of all of that that is premised on speaking and speaking in community, whether

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it's two guys that go for a beer once a week, or it's 10 people that go on a hike to a nearby

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mountain, and there's a ritual aspect of it, but there's a plain old speaking aspect of

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it, and it's not just speaking.

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It's listening, if you will, bearing witness to your brothers and sisters' stories.

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It's having them respond and listen to yours.

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This is an essential element of any reintegration of anyone, certainly of veterans and military

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spouses.

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There is an aspect of it.

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Rob and I have become students of history in doing of this work, both the roots of the

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warrior class of our country in Native American societies, the ancient Greeks, the town hall

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meetings that Sebastian Younger's group called Vets Town Hall Organizes, which is incredibly

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powerful, where the fact of sitting down and speaking and listening is incredibly important.

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On a personal level, and I say this because I think many folks in your audience, and certainly

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it's true for Rob and me, given our life journeys, we don't always say what's on our

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mind, what's on our hearts.

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I will tell you personally, there's times when I keep stuff inside, and it's not healthy,

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it's not productive.

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When I find the right moment to speak, and I do so in a way I think that is careful for

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the other people I'm speaking with, that is a very positive life affirming thing.

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In some way, that is at the heart of all of this process, but I would tell you from a

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society and individual standpoint, speaking and listening with your buddies in community

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is an essential aspect, not just of healing, but reintegration in general.

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Yeah, I think you're another way to say this maybe, that as veterans transition, they need

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to get out and get assistance or help.

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There's a lot of places they can get it, but if you keep it all inside, you don't reach

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out, you don't get some of this off your shoulders, it's going to make your transition into civilian

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life that much harder.

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Bullseye.

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Yes, we actually use, we talk about carrying around the 100 pound rucksack once you're

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out.

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Nobody does that for fun.

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No.

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No.

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Well, these are all really good ideas, and I wanted to come back to the spouse situation,

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the family situation, because as we talk to veterans over time, and we've been doing this

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now for 21 years or something, you really need that kind of family, maybe it's a spouse,

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maybe it's mom and dad, maybe it's a cousin, you really need that assistance on a lot of

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different fronts in transitioning, don't you, Rob?

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You do.

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And the way this came about, after each chapter we wrote, we'd go back and we'd seek more

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validation within that every spoke with, and we happened to reach out to a good friend

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of mine, serving the steel teams on his first operation in Afghanistan 2009 in a turnover

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operation.

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He stepped on an IED and lost both his legs.

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He was EOD, saved his life that day, metaback, just a phenomenal, phenomenal guy, Dan Trunosen.

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He's gone on, went to Harvard, I think he has six or seven medals in the Paralympics,

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but Dan read this.

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He's like, guys, you do nothing to address spouses or children.

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I'm like, Dan, you're absolutely right.

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So we went back and we probably spent another year in writing this and interviews.

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And the common themes that we saw were spouses will lose their identity.

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They are going to lose their community, just like the service member.

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And that's where we dawned on us, like, again, these conversations, these decisions amongst

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the family unit or whatever that is in the household, those conversations need to take

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place as well because the stressors are going to affect both people or the entire family.

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And Alex, anything you want to add onto that chapter?

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Because I know that was a big chapter of research that we did.

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Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head, you know, without sounding off on cliches.

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The spouse, you know, and the family from one perspective is what allows the active

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duty service member to go serve in whatever capacity on assignment, on deployment, whether

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or not they're in combat.

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They are the ones that are part of the team.

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And I think any veteran with a family that has served in that capacity would say absolutely.

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I think there's another aspect that we attempt to give a little bit of tough love about,

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and that is in the preparatory phase that Rob described, if you have a spouse, and by

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spouse we mean significant other, whether you're married or not, whatever, but if you

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have a spouse, it would be silly not to do this planning together.

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This is a team sport.

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And so there's many aspects of the involvement of spouse and family that are critical, and

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we're not sure folks out there, including our government, are sufficiently aware of

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it.

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Yeah, there's, you know, my spouse served 36 years, I understand that from that aspect

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as well.

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And I think you're right, you got to do this together.

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Given some of the basic reflections, Rob, that you mentioned like what region, what

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industry, what kind of business to, you know, what field do I want to be in, all of that

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sort of a team sport, isn't it?

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It is.

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You know, what are the values I'm looking for in the community?

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What is the culture that I'm looking for in the company?

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Those are some of the biggest reasons that we see people struggle, not within, just within

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the house when they move, but also within companies.

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They pick the wrong company because they run into something to make the quick dollar.

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And Alex and I both understand that because we've only been there with corporations that

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either do layoffs or restructuring that, hey, sometimes you just have to maybe go eat crow

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because you have to go food on the table.

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Absolutely understand that.

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But the statistics are so pronounced with veterans going into jobs that 44% of the first

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year leave, up to 80% leave the second, that there's not enough time and diligence that's

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been on the front, less of the event of them getting hired to maybe mitigate those statistics

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because they're choosing the wrong culture.

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And maybe they're finding the right place.

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Let me blend that, transition that into, you have a couple of chapters on purpose.

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And I think this is one of the really difficult things for those getting out of the military

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when you're in, you know exactly what the purpose is, what gets you up every day.

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But talk about what you found about purpose, Alex.

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I'll steal a line.

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The purpose of life is purpose.

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If one has a purpose that is meaningful, that aligns with your insides, and robs in my way

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of thinking about it, which many veterans, every veteran we spoke with shares, having

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a sense of a higher duty and obligation to serve others, to serve higher things than

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yourself causes transcendent.

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I mean for us and veterans and spouses and these communities, it is each other, it's

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the country, it's certainly the constitution, it's ideas and things bigger than oneself.

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And not everyone has to share and have a purpose in the way I'm describing it.

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There's lots of ways to slice that cap.

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And we provide different frameworks and stories because everyone can form their own.

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Having said that, if you have a purpose and you have to get through a difficult time,

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because this is a fundamental life transition, this is a life transition that for some folks

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lasts for decades and maybe doesn't end.

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And that's not to say those folks are somehow disabled, it becomes a central aspect that

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explains their life.

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For Robin me personally, the phrase we came up with, it describes this, is from our greatest

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wounds has come our greatest sense of purpose.

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If you have a sense of purpose, it makes hanging on to that when you're dealing with difficult

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things or you're feeling from physical or non physical injuries, when you're having

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to get a new job, when you're having difficulties at home, when you're trying to figure out

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your place in this world where things don't make sense, because you have seen service

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and sacrifice and loss and rising to higher challenges for the sake of the folks to your

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left and to your right, you come back to a society which is a bit alienating.

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We're going to the shopping mall seems to be what's important for some segments of our

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country than having a sense of purpose becomes an essential thing that forms part of a new

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identity and how you hang on to really positive things and craft a new life.

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Before we run out of time, I want to make sure that folks understand the audience for

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this book as I've read it and gone through it.

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It'd be simple to say well, it's for those folks 12 to 24 years from getting out of,

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months from getting out of the military, but I think it's much broader than that.

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I felt like, hey, there's stuff the family is going to learn in this.

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There's stuff the guy who's been out for a year to six to 10 years who maybe is bounced

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through two or three jobs and just can't get it feel like it's the right fit for him.

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There's a lot for people to learn here beyond that person who's still wearing the uniform

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looking to transition.

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So was that your audience Rob, that larger audience rather than the more narrow audience?

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Yes, you nailed it.

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The larger intent here was not only look at the military, active duty military veterans

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and their spouses, the family unit, but let's broaden this to first responders.

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They deal with a lot of these things, PTSD, TBI, loss of identity, community, but more

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broadly we've given this book to people going through divorces or have lost a loved one

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and they've come back and said the frameworks that you wrote about are very powerful and

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universal.

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I was able to take that and reflect on my own life and find some way forward or find a

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path forward through this hard time.

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So yes, thank you for saying that.

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We wrote with the intention of going well past the military.

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Well we appreciate the time that Alex Genzir and Rob Server have been able to provide

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for us today, they wrote a book called Warrior to Civilian, the Field Manual for the Heroes

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Journey.

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It's going to be on a, oh it's a hatchered imprint I believe, hatchered publishing coming

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out in late January 2025.

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Gentlemen, any parting words and we really do appreciate your time today.

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I'll be real quick Rob and I'll pass it to you.

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Real quick, for reasons Rob and I don't understand, our publisher which is a phenomenal one didn't

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anticipate a big print run.

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So the book is available for pre-order today and if folks in your audience want to buy

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it, that's fantastic.

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We don't make any money off of that by the way, but if you want it we would urge you

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to go buy it on Amazon now, pre-order it because it's going to run out.

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The other thing I would say to leave your audience members with is if you're having

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a hard time with any of these topics, you're in really good company and there's parts

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of our book that can be helpful to you but it's not really about our book.

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It's the idea that there is inspiration and hope and the darkest of times.

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Sunrise happens after the darkest time of the day and there's every reason for hope

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and healing.

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There's innovative therapies, there's things that your brothers and sisters and family

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members can do.

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We would urge you never to quit.

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Rob, I'll pass it to you.

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Amen.

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I would say thank you Alex.

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I would say for the veterans out there, anybody who wanted to pick up this book, that realize

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that my analysis relationship is a microcosm of the relationships out there that everybody

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experiences.

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My stories of veterans is ones of hundreds of thousands, millions of folks out there.

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But Alex and I also realize that we stand on the shoulders of giants and we've gone

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out and collectively pulled veterans' voices together, success, failures, everything too.

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Write this book to help people to reduce the stress in their lives and to make that transition

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one of refinding purpose.

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With that, I'll turn it back to you and say thank you again.

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Well, we're glad to have you on.

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I'm surprised you went the whole interview, Rob, without saying go Navy.

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After the big win this week.

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Yeah, I know.

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Sorry.

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But I think this is an important book adding to the way in which folks transition and transition

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broadly defined.

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So gentlemen, thanks for your time today.

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Thank you Jim.

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Awesome.

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And I want to thank everybody for listening to Veterans Radio today.

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00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,760
I am Jim Fawcone.

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It's been a pleasure to be your host.

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I'm a Veterans Disability Lawyer at Legal Help for Veterans and you can reach us at

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00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:33,640
800-693-4800 or legalhelpforveterans.com on the web.

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00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:38,520
You can follow Veterans Radio on Facebook and listen to its podcasts and internet radio

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00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:43,160
shows by visiting us at veteransradio.org.

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00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,720
That's veteransradio.org.

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We again want to thank our national sponsors, the National Veterans Business Development

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Council, NVBDC.org.

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Legal Help for Veterans, a Veterans Disability Law Firm with a national practice before the

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00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:07,400
VA can help you on your claims and your appeals.

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Plants can be reached at legalhelpforveterans.com or 1-800-693-4800 and PuroClean, a leader

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You can reach them at puroclean.com or 800-775-7876.

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We also want to thank our local sponsors.

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This would include the Charles S. Kettles chapter of the Vietnam Veterans of America,

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VFW, Graf O'Hara Post 423, the American Legion Irwin Preskin Post 46 in Ann Arbor as well.

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The VA Ann Arbor Healthcare System and certainly the National Vietnam Veterans of America Association.

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Thank you.