1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:15,000 All across America and around the world, this is Veterans Radio. 2 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:19,440 And now your host for today's program, Dale Throneberry. 3 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,440 Hey, welcome to Veterans Radio. 4 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:28,440 All the great technology in the world wants to help anything when the power's not on. 5 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:30,680 So we are running a little late today. 6 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:32,640 I want to welcome you to our program. 7 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,920 I'm going to kind of condense everything down a little bit. 8 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:45,000 We've got the CEO of the Marine Corps Heritage Foundation on Major General Jim Lieuchman. 9 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:49,200 Really excited to talk with him about the foundation. 10 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,160 Later on in the program, we've got Mark Liebsen on again. 11 00:00:52,160 --> 00:00:55,840 He's the author of a new book entitled The Unlucky War Hero. 12 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:04,760 A really great story about the youngest enlisted man that had been captured and spent time in the Hanoi Hilton. 13 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:07,000 So stick around for that one. 14 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:09,880 Also joining me again today is another Marine. 15 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:11,720 I got Marines all over the place today. 16 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,160 I have to be careful. I have to watch their language. 17 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,240 Brian Bay, hey Brian. 18 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:18,440 Hey, how are you? 19 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,760 I am good. So we're going to get started right now. 20 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:25,840 And I need to do our normal thank our sponsors. 21 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:29,680 So I'll do the condensed readers digest version of them today. 22 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:34,760 Legal help for veterans, legal help for veterans specializes in veteran disability claims. 23 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:43,480 Give legal help for veterans a call at 800-69-3-4800 or go to their website, legalhelpforveterans.com. 24 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:48,040 The National Veterans Business Development Council, better known as NVVDC, 25 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:52,920 is the nation's leading third party authority for certification of veteran-owned businesses. 26 00:01:52,920 --> 00:02:01,760 For more information, go to their website, NVVDC.org, or give them a call at 888-237-8433. 27 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:10,080 Pure Clean, known as the paramedics of property damage. Pure Clean provides water damage remediation, flood water removal, 28 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,880 fire and smoke damage remediation, mold removal, and so forth. 29 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:19,520 The reason that Pure Clean came on is they have a really great franchise program for veterans. 30 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:24,480 Actually, it says Pure Clean is one of the nation's leading restoration franchise networks. 31 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:31,800 And they get 25% off the franchise fee. So for more information, go to pureclean.com. 32 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,640 Charles S. Kettles VA Medical Center here in Ann Arbor, Michigan. 33 00:02:35,640 --> 00:02:38,280 For more information on them, go to va.gov. 34 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:45,720 The National Vietnam Veterans of America never again will one generation of veterans abandon another. 35 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:49,240 For more information for them, go to vva.org. 36 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:57,320 And finally, locally, we've got the Erwin Press Corps in American Legion Post 46 and the Charles S. Kettles Vietnam Veterans of America Chapter 310, 37 00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:59,240 both of Ann Arbor, Michigan. 38 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:04,360 Hey, you'd like to support Veterans Radio, go to our website, veteransradio.org. 39 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,800 Click on the donate button and with thank you in advance, 40 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:09,800 let's get right into our program. 41 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:14,120 So after a little bit of delay with the powers that be, 42 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:22,280 my guest today is Major General James and Jim Lukeman, President and CEO of the Marine Corps Heritage Foundation. 43 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,280 Jim, welcome to Veterans Radio. 44 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:26,280 Thanks for having me on, Dale. It's great to be here. 45 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:30,280 Well, you know, it's great to be anywhere, as they say. 46 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:32,280 Yeah. 47 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:39,400 So I wanted to bring you on, let me go back and find my little press release for you. 48 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:43,160 You're retired from active duty in 2020 after 40 years, 49 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,840 continue a service in the Marines, born in South Carolina, 50 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,360 graduated from University of Notre Dame, 51 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:55,800 and was commissioned through their Navy ROTC program in 1980. 52 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,920 Let's see, your assignments included, 53 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:06,280 well, Rifling Weapons Platoon, Commander Alpha Company, and anyone mortar platoon commander, 54 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,600 blah, blah, blah, all these different commanders anyway, 55 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:13,480 who was there in Iraq with the 1st Marine Division during Iraqi Freedom, 56 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,360 just an astounding career. 57 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,920 Oh, and luckily I got to talk with Jim before we went on the air 58 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:27,080 and found out that he got this job offer two months after he retired. 59 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:29,560 What a great concept. I like that idea. 60 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:33,800 But Jim, tell me all about this Marine Corps Heritage Foundation. 61 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:35,640 It's a great organization I've heard. 62 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,360 Oh, yeah. Thanks, Dale. And it is a great organization. 63 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:40,360 And I'm the luckiest guy in the world. 64 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:42,760 Like you said, I spent my whole life in the Marine Corps. 65 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,080 I grew up in the Marine Corps. My father was a Marine. 66 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,320 Then I spent 40 years on active duty. 67 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:50,280 And when I retired, I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. 68 00:04:50,280 --> 00:04:52,920 I knew I wanted to stay close to the Marine Corps if I could. 69 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,880 And so, yeah, just about two months into retirement, 70 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:57,560 a friend who was on the board called and said, 71 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,240 I don't know if you've heard, but they're looking for somebody 72 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:01,320 to take over the Marine Corps Heritage Foundation. 73 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,360 And I said, yeah, that'd be terrific. 74 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:06,440 So I was fortunate enough to get that job 75 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:07,960 and been doing that for four years now. 76 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:10,520 So the Marine Corps Heritage Foundation, 77 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:12,520 what we do is it's a nonprofit. 78 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,080 It's been around for a long time, about 45 years. 79 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,400 And the mission is to preserve and share the history, tradition, 80 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:20,840 culture of the Marine Corps, 81 00:05:20,840 --> 00:05:23,800 and educate all Americans in what's best about the Marine Corps. 82 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:27,480 So that's our job is to share the Marine Corps story 83 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:28,200 with the country. 84 00:05:28,840 --> 00:05:31,720 And about 20 years ago, one of the things 85 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:33,800 that probably the most significant accomplishment 86 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,080 of the foundation was to build the National Museum 87 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,440 of the Marine Corps, which is just outside of Washington, D.C., 88 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:42,920 outside the base at Marine Corps Base Quantico, Virginia. 89 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:48,920 And as you said, there's a whole lot of things going on 90 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,120 because rumor has it that there's some sort of birthday 91 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:53,080 coming up next year. 92 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:58,600 And I was just wondering what were some of the plans for that? 93 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:00,760 Yeah, rumor has it is right. 94 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:05,560 So 2025 will mark the 250th anniversary 95 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:07,160 of the United States Marine Corps. 96 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,640 250 years of first to fight, 97 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,360 250 years of honor, courage, and commitment. 98 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,320 And Marines are not shy about talking about that history. 99 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,720 So in addition to, I'll talk about the museums 100 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,880 and what happens there, but there's going to be a year-long 101 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,720 nationwide commemoration of the 250th anniversary 102 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:30,520 of the Marine Corps. 103 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:32,280 And we're working very closely with the Marine Corps 104 00:06:32,280 --> 00:06:32,920 to do that. 105 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:34,920 Just last week, the commandant kicked it off 106 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:39,720 with a message and a short video that he and the Sergeant Major 107 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:41,480 of the Marine Corps put out talking. 108 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:43,960 It's time to start the 250th celebration now. 109 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:45,240 So we are on. 110 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:47,640 So that's the two things I think have been interesting 111 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:49,880 to folks is to talk about the museum a little bit 112 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:51,800 and then what's happening next year for the two. 113 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:57,240 Okay, so let's go straight to the museum, which is, 114 00:06:58,200 --> 00:06:59,640 the website is just awesome. 115 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:00,840 I got to get there. 116 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:02,440 It's amazing. 117 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:04,040 I don't know, Brian, have you been to the National Museum 118 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:04,600 of the Marine Corps? 119 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:04,760 Yeah. 120 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:05,640 Okay. 121 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:08,120 It's a beautiful building. 122 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:09,800 It's incredible the design. 123 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:11,560 When everybody stops and gets out of their car 124 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:13,160 to walk into the museum, the first thing they do 125 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:14,920 is they stop and look at it and take a picture 126 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:16,200 because it's beautiful. 127 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:17,640 And the second thing they do, they walk in 128 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:19,640 and they do it again because you walk into the museum 129 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:21,880 and it's got this great gallery that you enter. 130 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:24,440 And everybody, it's a wow moment for everybody. 131 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:29,240 But what that museum has is 250 years of American history 132 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:30,600 through the eyes of Marines. 133 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,520 So it goes from 1775 until today with the history 134 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:36,840 of the Marine Corps and the country. 135 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:37,640 It's open every day. 136 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:39,400 Two days it's closed. 137 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:40,760 It's closed on Thanksgiving Day 138 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:42,040 and closed on Christmas Day. 139 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,440 But every other day it's open nine to five free, 140 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:46,120 free parking right off of 95. 141 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,600 It's about 45 minutes south of Washington, D.C. 142 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:53,240 So we've had, it's been open since 2006. 143 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:54,520 So that's 18 years old. 144 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:55,800 She's 18 now. 145 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,960 And we've had over 7 million visitors come through the doors 146 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,640 and we reach a lot of kids both in the museum 147 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:05,480 and across the country through distance learning 148 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:07,480 because we have a distance learning studio in the museum, 149 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:10,600 which is a terrific education for folks. 150 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,440 And really it is a, it's a, it's a must see museum, 151 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,840 not just for Marines, but for anybody 152 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:18,840 that's interested in military history or just learning 153 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:19,480 about the country. 154 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:20,520 It's a terrific museum. 155 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,560 Well, I think it, you know, it's, it's got so many 156 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:25,480 things going on there. 157 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,920 I mean, the, I saw there's a Medal of Honor theater. 158 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:30,680 Sure. 159 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:32,040 It's got a big screen theater. 160 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:33,560 You know, it shows like, you know, type, 161 00:08:33,560 --> 00:08:35,560 think IMAX is what it is. 162 00:08:36,680 --> 00:08:40,840 And, and recently we just opened gosh, two months ago, 163 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:43,720 the last couple of historical galleries. 164 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:45,400 So we now have a gallery that covers 165 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:47,800 operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. 166 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:51,720 So 2001 ever since 9-11 up until today. 167 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:54,600 And it's really good because so many young Marines 168 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:56,280 and soldiers and others that are, 169 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,680 that served in Iraq and Afghanistan are still serving 170 00:08:58,680 --> 00:09:00,520 come through that, those galleries 171 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:02,600 and they can see their service honored in a way 172 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:04,680 that makes them proud in the museum. 173 00:09:04,680 --> 00:09:06,920 So, so for Vietnam veterans, a lot of, 174 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:08,920 a lot of y'all had to wait 30, 40 years 175 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,640 to be able to see your service in our museum. 176 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,040 But, but for the folks from Iraq and Afghanistan, 177 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:15,400 we have that now. 178 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:19,480 So it's, it's really a, the museum kind of immerses you in it. 179 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:21,240 It's more than just looking at something. 180 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,160 You actually feel like you're a part of, 181 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:23,800 of what it is. 182 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:25,960 It's just a fantastic, the whole thing is great. 183 00:09:26,680 --> 00:09:28,760 I think so, you know, and the, 184 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,400 the foundation also does a lot of other things too. 185 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:32,360 We do. 186 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:36,600 You know, you're talking, the info that I got sent to me 187 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:38,600 was talking about some of the trend, 188 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:40,840 the transition programs that you have. 189 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,240 Yeah. There's a lot of things get hosted at the, 190 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,520 at the museum itself, but, but we support that 191 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:48,680 from a Marine Corps Heritage Foundation standpoint, 192 00:09:48,680 --> 00:09:50,680 we support the history division, the Marine Corps, 193 00:09:50,680 --> 00:09:53,320 we support the band, we support the museum. 194 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,240 We have a huge education component where we hire teachers 195 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:58,840 that work there at the museum. 196 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:03,720 And then inside the museum, there will be both employment 197 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,600 job fairs that we host inside the museum 198 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,720 and transition assistance programs. 199 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,240 So veterans can come, you know, it's one of the, 200 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:14,600 it's a, it's a location. 201 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:16,360 It's outside the gate at Quantico. 202 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,320 So you don't have to go on to the base to get into our museum. 203 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,200 And since it's open every day and it's free, 204 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,320 we can host events inside the museum for things 205 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,440 that veterans can come to with, without having to worry 206 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:30,840 about, you know, clearance and an ID card 207 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:32,360 and all the other kind of stuff to get on the base. 208 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,520 So it's a terrific location for that kind of event. 209 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,360 I mean, I'm just looking at the, at the website 210 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:43,320 here and the website for the Heritage Foundation is, 211 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:45,640 it's themarineheritage.org. 212 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:46,360 Correct. 213 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:47,800 MarineHeritage.org. 214 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:52,840 And I see you have a band festival coming up. 215 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,160 You have a lot of events. 216 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:56,280 Yeah, that's great. 217 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,080 Yeah, no, I mean, we play a lot of times, 218 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:04,280 I play music from different military bands and so forth. 219 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,480 And I've used the Marine Corps band 220 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:08,920 quite often. 221 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:14,280 In fact, the recently retired director of the Marine Corps band 222 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:18,120 is now the director of the University of Michigan marching band. 223 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:18,680 Correct. 224 00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:19,480 Absolutely. 225 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:19,720 Yes. 226 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:26,120 So a lot of things that are kind of coming together here. 227 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:30,280 Well, what I was looking at, what I thought was really interesting 228 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:36,200 in the, on your website was the, that you have started 229 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:38,360 sort of an oral history project going, 230 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,080 where you're trying to get the story of as many Marines as possible. 231 00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:43,640 Yes, absolutely. 232 00:11:44,680 --> 00:11:48,600 And the history division is helping us with this 233 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:50,520 in the National Museum as well as to, 234 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:54,360 is to capture the stories of Marines who have served 235 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,200 and make that a simple project to be able to record them. 236 00:11:58,200 --> 00:11:59,960 We've just started working on this, 237 00:11:59,960 --> 00:12:03,320 but to be able to get veterans who come to our museum 238 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,760 to be able to tell their stories and record that in a way. 239 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,240 And then it either becomes part of our history division archives 240 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,040 or even the national archives who do this work as well 241 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:13,240 to capture people's stories. 242 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:14,120 Yes. 243 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,400 So that's a project we're currently working on at the museum. 244 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:18,920 Sounds like a great thing. 245 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:20,760 And you know, we've got a craft of craft of audience. 246 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:22,040 They walk through the door. 247 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:22,280 Yeah. 248 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:25,720 Well, it's not just, that's right. 249 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,040 You want to see the rest of the museum? 250 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:29,000 That's right. 251 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,880 And most of our, I guess most of the folks that come through are veterans, 252 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,200 but again, we have a whole lot of, like I said, 253 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,400 school groups that come in and also just people that want to learn 254 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:39,560 more about the Marine Corps or they know a Marine. 255 00:12:39,560 --> 00:12:40,760 And somebody says, hey, you got to go. 256 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,040 It's one thing we tell people if you're not a Marine 257 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:45,880 and don't know much about the Marine Corps, 258 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,760 you'll understand a little more why we are the way we are 259 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,320 after you've been through our museum and seen it. 260 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,600 I mean, we have a little laser rifle range in there inside the museum. 261 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:55,560 I see that. 262 00:12:55,560 --> 00:12:58,040 So you can take a hand at shooting. 263 00:12:58,040 --> 00:12:59,800 You can either shoot an M1, 264 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,960 which was the weapon of choice in Korea and the end of World War II, 265 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,120 or you can shoot an M16, which is the weapon of choice from Vietnam, 266 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,400 or you can shoot today's M4 in our little rifle range. 267 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:14,840 Well, I'm just, I'm looking at this. 268 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:16,680 So yet you have a BRIC program. 269 00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:18,920 I saw you already got 30,000 BRICs. 270 00:13:19,560 --> 00:13:19,720 Yeah. 271 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,000 There's about 125 acres on the site. 272 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:28,040 So there's a huge memorial park grounds that is adjacent to the museum. 273 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,960 And it's dotted with memorials to battles, 274 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,320 units, and heroes of the Marine Corps. 275 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:36,680 And you can walk the trails. 276 00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:40,760 It's an ADA compliant sidewalk that moves through the woods. 277 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:42,520 And it's really, really nice. 278 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,240 I mean, it's just a very tranquil, peaceful place to go. 279 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:49,000 There's a chapel up on the hill that people use for weddings, 280 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,840 retirements, promotion ceremonies, all kinds of things. 281 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:54,920 There's a little pavilion down at the bottom of the hill 282 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:56,600 that people do for the same thing. 283 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,560 I mean, it's just the location and what happens there. 284 00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:00,840 It's a living, breathing place. 285 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:05,400 And for Marines, every day, someone's getting promoted or retired, 286 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,200 or heck, we have commissioning ceremonies and we have funerals. 287 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,640 I mean, we take it from cradle to grave for Marines 288 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:13,560 in the National Museum of the Marine Corps. 289 00:14:13,560 --> 00:14:15,480 And it feels like home for a Marine when you're there. 290 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,680 So it's a great location for all those things to take place. 291 00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:20,840 I think it's a great opportunity. 292 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:22,840 How can our audience help out? 293 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,200 Well, certainly you can contribute to the Marine Corps Heritage Foundation, 294 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:27,400 which again, it's a nonprofit. 295 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,680 So everything we designed, raised the money, 296 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:34,840 designed and built that museum with contributions from grateful Americans. 297 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:36,440 That's who paid for it. 298 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:40,440 It's a fantastic place and you do that at marineheritage.org. 299 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,920 So we're a charitable organization and you get the full benefit 300 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,880 of giving to our charity at marineheritage.org. 301 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:49,080 But then also come see it. 302 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:49,720 I mean, just come. 303 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:51,320 Like I said, it doesn't cost anything to come in, 304 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,480 but you'll love it when you come in. 305 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,360 You'll see why we're so high on the museum. 306 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:56,920 I see. 307 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,040 It looks like a lot of kind of virtual tours anyway. 308 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:00,360 We do. 309 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:02,520 We do have a virtual tour on our website. 310 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:07,400 You can walk through the whole museum and see it virtually from our website. 311 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:08,120 I take that back. 312 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:09,880 The last two galleries that I talked about, 313 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,600 Iraq and Afghanistan and the 80s and 90s, 314 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,400 we haven't, that hasn't been added to our virtual tour yet 315 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:16,920 because they just opened two months ago. 316 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:18,840 So the virtual tour ends at the end of Vietnam. 317 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,280 Well, that's all right. 318 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:23,880 We'll get there though. 319 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:24,360 We'll get there. 320 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:24,680 I know. 321 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:26,840 But you can see it online or you can come see it. 322 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,000 And we talked about, Dale, we're going to do this 250th thing. 323 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,920 So this was this, this 2025, the 250th anniversary of Marine Corps. 324 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,440 This was, is a once in a lifetime opportunity for most of us, 325 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,640 you know, to be able to have that kind of a milestone. 326 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:45,000 And as the history guys, we decided a couple of years ago, 327 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:46,680 oh, let's, we're going to make this good. 328 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:48,760 I mean, we're going to, we're going to do this all year long, 329 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:54,120 all across the country so that everybody knows that it's the 250th. 330 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,000 And what, and really get a better understanding of what the Marine Corps has 331 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:01,160 done for our country for the last 250 years and what Marines have done for the country. 332 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:01,640 Sure. 333 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:02,680 Oh, absolutely. 334 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:03,320 Absolutely. 335 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,040 I mean, you know, everybody's, 336 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,960 everybody in the military is quite, quite aware of Marines. 337 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,240 And well, you guys are the tip of the spear all the time. 338 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,480 I mean, that's, that's, that's your whole purpose. 339 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:17,800 You know, you always are sent in first. 340 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:23,160 And do a wonderful, amazingly terrific job. 341 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:27,960 And I think that you, you know, personify the idea of duty, honor, and country. 342 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,280 And you live it every single day. 343 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:34,280 And even after they leave the Corps, they don't leave the Corps. 344 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:35,640 It's still there. 345 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:40,920 Well, and that's one of the things, Dale, that we want to highlight along with this 250th 346 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:46,120 is so many Marines have gone on to do great things in their communities 347 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:47,880 after leaving the Marine Corps. 348 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:49,720 And we want to highlight those Marines. 349 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:53,400 We call it hometown Marines or hometown heroes. 350 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,000 And throughout the year, next year, we're going to find them all across the country 351 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:58,440 in all 50 states. 352 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,040 And we're just going to bring a little more attention to that Marine who served three 353 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:08,120 years and got out and went on to become a, an ER doctor in the community or an EMT person 354 00:17:08,120 --> 00:17:12,120 on, you know, riding in the ambulance for the fire department or got out and became 355 00:17:12,120 --> 00:17:15,240 a school teacher and has been a school teacher for 30 years now in the community. 356 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,360 Or maybe they're a politician or maybe they were successful in business. 357 00:17:18,360 --> 00:17:22,680 But we're going to highlight these folks that like so many that have been successful 358 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:23,480 doing other things. 359 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:27,480 They go back at their time in the Marine Corps and say, you know, I really owe everything 360 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:29,720 to what I learned from my drill instructor in boot camp. 361 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:32,760 And that's why I'm successful today. 362 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:34,680 But they've given so much back to their communities. 363 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:39,080 We want to recognize that as part of our 250th year long celebration. 364 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:44,680 Okay. Oh, you know, so we've been talking here with Major General James W. 365 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,080 Lukeman, United States Marine Corps retired. 366 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:51,080 He's the president and chief executive officer of the Marine Corps Heritage Foundation. 367 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:52,680 It's a long word. 368 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:54,680 Marine Corps Heritage Foundation. 369 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,040 And you, for more information, you can go to marineheritage.org. 370 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,080 I encourage you to go check out their website. 371 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,800 They take you to the museums through there as well. 372 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,280 And it's a beautiful site. 373 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:07,480 The pictures are great. 374 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:09,480 And there's a lot that you can learn. 375 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:10,040 Yeah. 376 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,160 All of us, whether, you know, no matter what service we were in, 377 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,200 whether, you know, or maybe we weren't ever in this service, 378 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:23,640 this is an opportunity for you to learn more about what the Marines have meant to America over the last 250 years. 379 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:25,240 Soon to be. 380 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,240 Almost there. Almost there. Almost 250. 381 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:28,200 Almost there. 382 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,640 So, Jim, I want to have you back on. 383 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:35,240 I mean, you know, because we got kind of rooked on time today. 384 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,400 Because of technical issues. 385 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:38,840 So I'd really like to have you back on, 386 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,600 especially if you have any great upcoming events that you would like to publicize. 387 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,400 I'd love to have you get you back here on Veterans Radio. 388 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:46,440 I'd love to come back to you. 389 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:48,040 Because yeah, there's a lot going on. 390 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:49,880 And so you go to our website. 391 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:50,840 That'll link you to. 392 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,200 There's another website called marine250.com that we put up. 393 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,680 That's got all the 250 stuff on it. 394 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:02,440 So you'll see there what's happening in your community or on the calendar throughout the year on marine250.com. 395 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,480 But yeah, start at marineheritage.org. It's all connected. 396 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:06,520 It's all linked together. 397 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:07,480 So that's cool. 398 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:09,080 Very much. Thank you so much, Jim. 399 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:09,880 Thanks, Tim. 400 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:11,160 Have a great happy holiday. 401 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,160 Merry Christmas and have a great new year. 402 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,160 Super pedaas. 403 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,160 Thank you very much. 404 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:21,720 All right, we're going to take a real quick break here and go to our Medal of Honor segment today, 405 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:23,720 which just happens to be a Marine. 406 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:25,720 So we will, we'll be back after that. 407 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:27,720 You're listening to Veterans Radio. 408 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:31,240 The Medal of Honor is the highest award for Valor. 409 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:35,480 And combat given a member of the Armed Forces of the United States. 410 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:39,480 There have been over 3400 recipients of the nation's highest award. 411 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,480 This is one of them. 412 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:47,480 Private Dale Hansen killed 12 Japanese soldiers in a one-man attack on their positions. 413 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:49,480 Details after this. 414 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:59,480 If you have a VA claim denied by the Board of Veterans Appeals, contact legal help for veterans at 1-800-693-4800. 415 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:03,480 They're experts in handling cases before the U.S. Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims. 416 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,480 Their number again, 1-800-693-4800. 417 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:13,480 Hansen unhesitatingly took the initiative during a critical stage of the action and armed with a rocket launcher, 418 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:21,480 crawled to an exposed position where he attacked and destroyed a strategically located hostile pillbox. 419 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:27,480 With his weapons subsequently destroyed by enemy fire, he seized a rifle and continued his one-man assault. 420 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:35,480 Reaching the crest of a ridge, he opened fire on six Japanese and killed four before his rifle jammed. 421 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:41,480 Attacked by the two remaining Japanese, he beat them off with the butt of his rifle and then climbed back to cover. 422 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:49,480 Returning with another weapon and supply of grenades, he fearlessly advanced and destroyed a strong mortar position 423 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:51,480 and annihilated eight more of the enemy. 424 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:55,480 The Medal of Honor series is a production of Veterans Radio. 425 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:57,480 Military veterans touch everyone's life. 426 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:03,480 I'm guessing right now you're thinking of a veteran, a close friend, relative, maybe it's you. 427 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:08,480 Even the toughest of us sometimes need help, but don't know where to turn for support. 428 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,480 You don't need special training to help a veteran in your life. 429 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,480 We can all help someone going through a difficult time. 430 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,480 Learn how you can be there for veterans. 431 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,480 Visit veteranscrisisline.net. 432 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:20,480 Veteranscrisisline.net. 433 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:25,480 A message from the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs. 434 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:36,480 Hey, we're back here on Veterans Radio and as you know, the first half of the program, as I mentioned before, we had a little technical problem, but that's okay. 435 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:37,480 We're back. 436 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:39,480 Yeah, that Medal of Honor today was a Marine. 437 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:49,480 That was to honor our first guest from the Marine Corps Heritage Foundation and the Marine Corps Museum and all those Marine things. 438 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:53,480 We're going to a little quick little transition here to another branch of the service. 439 00:21:53,480 --> 00:22:03,480 And this is my friend from the Vietnam Veterans of America Magazine, the veteran, and that is Mark Leapson and Mark was on our program a couple of weeks ago. 440 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,480 We were talking about books that people needed to get for the holidays. 441 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:15,480 And we talked briefly about his own, but so I promised that I'd give him a little time now to talk about the one that he's releasing this week. 442 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:21,480 So welcoming Mark Leapson, an Army veteran, and this story is about a Navy veteran. 443 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,480 So Mark, welcome back to Veterans Radio. 444 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,480 Thanks, Dale. 445 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:27,480 Thanks for having me back. 446 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:33,480 We can talk about that really one great book that everybody must have for Christmas. 447 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:34,480 I think so. 448 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,480 It's called The Unlikely War Hero. 449 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:46,480 And it's the story of Vietnam War POW's story of courage and resilience at the Hanoi Hilton. And it comes out this week. 450 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:53,480 And actually, Dale, let me just say that the official publication date is Tuesday, but the book is available now. 451 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,480 I don't know why publishers do that, but they don't either. 452 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:57,480 But here's my yeah. 453 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,480 So I got hold it up again. 454 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:06,480 We're losing a radio audience. I got a really cool cover on it too. 455 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,480 It's called The Unlikely War Hero by Mark Leapson. 456 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:14,480 L E E P S O N. Too many ease. 457 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:20,480 So Mark, tell me about this story. Tell me about this young man. 458 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:26,480 Right. So it says the book is a slice of life biography of Doug Hague doll. 459 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:38,480 Who was the youngest and lowest ranking American during the Vietnam War, who was captured in North Vietnam and held in the Hanoi Hilton. 460 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,480 He was a 20 year old kid. 461 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:50,480 He was on a he was an ammunition handler on the guided missile cruiser called the Canberra, which was firing off the coast of North Vietnam. 462 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:56,480 And at four o'clock in the morning on April 6, 1967, he fell overboard. 463 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,480 Nobody saw it. You know, it was the middle of the night or early morning. 464 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:01,480 It was dark outside. 465 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:06,480 Doug says he does not remember what happened, although we do know that the big guns had five. 466 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:13,480 You know, it was a guided missile cruiser, but it we never fired a missile in anger in the Vietnam War. 467 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,480 But the ship had these big five inch and eight inch guns. 468 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:22,480 And if you've ever seen or heard them in action, you can imagine what it was like. 469 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,480 So there he is in the in the in the drink. 470 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:26,480 Nobody saw him. 471 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,480 The ship pulled off and he was a big strong kid. 472 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:35,480 You know, he wrestled heavyweight in high school and he was on the football team and so on. 473 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:36,480 And a good swimmer. 474 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:42,480 So he managed to stay a float in this in the South China Sea. 475 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,480 We don't know exactly when, but you know, I did get a hold of the deck log. 476 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,480 So I know when the firing started. 477 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,480 I know when the firing started that morning. 478 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:55,480 So I would say at least two, probably three, maybe a little bit more hours in the water. 479 00:24:55,480 --> 00:25:00,480 He was about to go under when he looked up and saw a small fishing boat. 480 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,480 And he ripped off his t-shirt and waved it. 481 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:08,480 And the fisher, the guys in the boat saw him, picked him up and actually saved his life. 482 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,480 Doug says he wasn't captured. 483 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,480 He was rescued. 484 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,480 And they got him onto shore and they treated him fairly well. 485 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,480 I gave him clean clothes, dry clothes. 486 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:26,480 Then they turned him over to the North Vietnamese who kind of roughed him up a little bit and then shipped him up to the Hanoi Hill. 487 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,480 And that's the beginning of the story. 488 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:37,480 And I'll tell you just a couple of amazing things that why we call him a war hero because. 489 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:44,480 So first of all, Doug outwitted the North Vietnamese interrogators. 490 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,480 He was a 20 year old kid who barely got, he wasn't dumb. 491 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,480 He just didn't care when he barely got through high school. 492 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,480 But when he was, they did the same thing. 493 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,480 They interrogated all of them and they wanted all the information. 494 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,480 First of all, they didn't believe he fell off a ship. 495 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:04,480 They thought he was a spy, which was preposterous, but he convinced him he wasn't a spy. 496 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,480 And then he convinced him that he didn't have much to give them. 497 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,480 He was on the deck crew. 498 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,480 He was only on the ship for two months. 499 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:21,480 He wasn't like some guy who was flying a F-105 off an aircraft carrier and got shot down. 500 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,480 He was just this kid off a ship. 501 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:30,480 Not only did he convince him that, but he thought up a strategy that worked for him. 502 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,480 And that is that he played dumb. 503 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,480 He wasn't dumb, but when they started asking him questions, they said, 504 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,480 you know, write down the name of your ship. 505 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,480 He said, well, you know, how do you spell ship, you know, stuff like that. 506 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,480 They gave him an ink pan. 507 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,480 He put it in his mouth one time and inks a little all over him. 508 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:51,480 And he convinced them that he was this, you know, dumb kid and they realized he had nothing to give him. 509 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,480 So they look and he never tortured them. 510 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:55,480 They roughed him up. 511 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,480 They put him in solitary for one point at night for nine months. 512 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:05,480 It wasn't, but he never had the horrible torture that many of the other POWs had. 513 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:12,480 So the other, that's one aspect of the story, but the other thing is that it turns out Doug had this great memory. 514 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:19,480 And you know, the POWs were always trying to, at that point, they were not allowed to communicate with each other. 515 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:24,480 You could only talk to your roommate and, you know, and you remember the tap code that they devised, right? 516 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,480 Where they tapped on the walls of their cells and so they did communicate that way. 517 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:34,480 They did pass notes like when they went to the shower, they would take, you know, they got three cigarettes a day. 518 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,480 It would take the cigarette paper and write and communicate. 519 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:43,480 So word got around on different things, including who is there. 520 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:52,480 So when, when Doug's high and, you know, the, the, the POWs started an unofficial chain of command behind bars. 521 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,480 So they had your highest ranking officer in each of the camps. 522 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:04,480 And when, when the officers found out that Doug had a good memory, they said start memorizing names and they started feeding him names. 523 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:13,480 So long story short, he memorized 254 names, ranks and services and a little bit of information about the guys. 524 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,480 And then they ordered him to go home. 525 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:24,480 But, you know, little known fact 12, how do I hilt and POWs got what they called early releases. 526 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:31,480 11 of them signed statements saying they were war criminals. Doug never did. 527 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,480 They wanted him out of there. 528 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:43,480 But Doug refused the order because he knew how much the other POWs looked down on the other early releasees. 529 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,480 And the Americans. 530 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:53,480 Stances changed. It was after he got out of solitary and they ordered him again and he accepted. 531 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,480 So he went out with two others. 532 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:01,480 And August, September 8th or 9th, somebody first week of August of 69. 533 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:09,480 And when he got to Washington and got debriefed, he rattled off the names of 254 POWs. 534 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:10,480 Now we had. 535 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,480 I'm sorry. No, that's okay. I know you're on a roll. 536 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:16,480 It's your book. 537 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:22,480 But the thing that I wanted to mention was, you know, he memorized the names of these 254 people. 538 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:30,480 So it's sort of like when you do memorize something, you have to go through the whole thing, or you'll forget somebody. 539 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:36,480 And the thing that I thought in the book that was so humorous was when they said, okay, well, who was there? 540 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:41,480 And he started going, you know, you know, Colonel this theory, major that. 541 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,480 And the guys are slow, slow down, slow down. 542 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,480 And because I can't slow down, it's like I'm on a bicycle. 543 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,480 If I slow down, I gotta go back to the beginning and start over again. 544 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:53,480 So they finally got wise and recorded them giving out all these names, but he did. 545 00:29:53,480 --> 00:30:01,480 He memorized 254 names of which something like 60 some odd they'd never heard of before. 546 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:07,480 You are correct. And I was just going to say that Dale about recording them because he was going so fast. 547 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:13,480 Yeah. So we had, look, the North Vietnamese trumpeted some of the prisoners like John McCain. 548 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,480 Remember, his father was the chief of naval operations in the Pacific. 549 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:24,480 You know, they love that they took pictures of him, you know, friendly newspapers from other communist countries ran it. 550 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,480 So and they did it like they did like that for a few other people. 551 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:34,480 And we had Intel and we knew we knew the names of probably, I don't know, 100, 150, something like that. 552 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,480 It's not clearing me from all the research I did, but we had a fair number. 553 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:48,480 But when they went through Doug's names, they were able to change the status of 63 guys from missing in action to prisoner of war. 554 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,480 In other words, that they were alive and they notified the family. 555 00:30:51,480 --> 00:31:01,480 So 63 families got word for the first time through Doug's information that their husband's father's son was alive, if not well, but at least in the prison. 556 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,480 So that was huge. 557 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:17,480 And the other thing is Doug, you know, because they they didn't think he was valuable to them, they gave him more freedom, you know, comparatively speaking to the other POWs. 558 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:22,480 I mean, they let him out of his cell more to do sweeping details and stuff like that. 559 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:28,480 So he was able to observe a lot that a lot of the other POWs didn't about stuff that was going on. 560 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:37,480 Plus, he reported firsthand here in the torture sessions and hearing other prisoners talk about it. 561 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:48,480 This was the first time that we had information about exactly how the POWs were being treated when the North Vietnamese were sort of claiming that it was humanitarian. 562 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:55,480 And they, you know, they bring friendly people over there and they had these staged press events where they gave him nice food and they cleaned him up and so on. 563 00:31:55,480 --> 00:32:00,480 So it was it was a it was a big deal thing when Doug turned over that information. 564 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:02,480 But not just the names is what I'm saying. 565 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:12,480 No, I mean, as you said, you know, I forget what you said in the book about, you know, the nickname for they wasn't, you know, like the dumb one. 566 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,480 And the incredibly stupid one. 567 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,480 That's what the guards called him. 568 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:23,480 And, you know, and how he was able to play this off. 569 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,480 I'd like to kind of go back, you know, here's this guy. 570 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,480 You know, from Clark, what, South Dakota. 571 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,480 I mean, that's that's a that's a town of about nobody. 572 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:51,480 You know, maybe 150 people or something in those lines. And that's, you know, that's one of the great American stories that, you know, these, these people from these tiny towns all over the country that that, you know, become so important to the history and to, 573 00:32:51,480 --> 00:33:00,480 you know, saving their fellow, you know, people in the military, that you know that we're not aware of them. And this is that this is what I liked so much about your book. 574 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:18,480 And this is, you know, this, you know, guy for this, you know, the Jimmy Stewart wonderful life stuff and I know, you know, this small town America, that is so cool and, and how he was kind of reluctant to, you know, be involved with with all of the 575 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:27,480 POW, you know, things that were going on after he got back. So could you kind of address that a little bit. 576 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:37,480 Yeah, sure. And you're right, Clark actually is a little bigger than that. They probably had about 1300 in Clark, but still it's an Eastern South Dakota. It's very simple. 577 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:52,480 And yeah, so, you know, after he his debriefing, he and one of the other guys who came back with did a press conference at the at Bethesda Naval Hospital where they were held for three weeks for all the psychological and physical tests and so on. 578 00:33:52,480 --> 00:34:06,480 And that was the first time that that it was announced by people who knew how the North Vietnamese were really treating the POWs. And what happened after that was that very same day Ho Chi Minh died. 579 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:19,480 And there was a change in the Politburo treatment of the there was the North Vietnamese pop is there is a document resolution as somehow we have it. I've seen it. 580 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:30,480 Right, like a month after that, in which North Vietnamese, you know, put out this statement, you know, well, we treat POWs humanely. However, because we are good, we are going to be more lenient. 581 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:39,480 And you know what they were not just because of what Doug said, the Nixon administration was putting more pressure on the Johnson administration didn't really. 582 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:51,480 And because of Ho Chi Minh's death, but what Doug gave and the fact that the cat was out of the bag, you know, sort of speak about torture, and you read the POW members, I interviewed five POWs, they all say the same thing. 583 00:34:51,480 --> 00:35:06,480 By the end of 1969, they were given three meals a day instead of two, the food improved torture did not stop but it abated significantly. So there's even a bigger, you know, macro picture part part of the story. 584 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:23,480 But to your point, you know, Doug, they sent Doug out around the country after he got out of Bethesda Naval. And he went to naval bases all over the country. He met with families, he was able to meet two or three people who they said, did you see my dad, you see my husband. 585 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:43,480 Yes, I did see him three weeks ago or whatever. And he did participate in other events to popularize the cause of the POWs but he got out of the Navy early in the fall of 1970, and he went to San Diego. 586 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:48,480 And you know where he wound up working at the Sears School there at Coronado. 587 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:54,480 Yeah, it's gonna ask you about that. Yeah, as a civilian. 588 00:35:54,480 --> 00:36:09,480 We're talking, we're talking with Mark Leifson here and the author of the book is the unlikely war hero and it's just a great story. In fact, Tim O'Brien of the, you know, the things they carried is one of the finest nonfiction narratives to emerge from the Vietnam war. 589 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:15,480 And Mark, I have to really congratulate you and I agree with him entirely. 590 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:31,480 It's just a wonderful story of how this man, Boyd initially, man, survived this. I mean, when he got home, he suffered from survivor's guilt more or less. 591 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:41,480 And, you know, after a while, I thought he was kind of being played by the POW movement that was going on and he backed out. 592 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:57,480 And the last thing was, as you just mentioned, was that his job was to be part of the survival escape of resistance and survival evasion resistance and escape program in San Diego for 30 years. 593 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,480 Yeah, and he turned out it was he's a really good instructor. 594 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:12,480 I've heard from people who took the class and credited him with doing things that if not save their life really made things a lot easier for him. 595 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:23,480 Yeah, so, you know, I think, I think Doug performed one of the greatest acts of heroism in the Vietnam war outside of combat. 596 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:30,480 Think about thinking, you know what those interrogators did they, you know, tortured guys to within an inch of their life they tortured some to death. 597 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:32,480 And it worked. 598 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:51,480 And he was like if you ask POWs about early returnies, they get a sour face, but they almost invariably say, oh wait, except for Doug Higtal, because he came home and made things better for the families, made things better for the guys in Hanoi. 599 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,480 No, I did. And I just, I love the book. 600 00:37:55,480 --> 00:38:06,480 I mean, I, you know, when you know the author and then you know the book, I just found it so so interesting when you to follow this, this man. 601 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,480 And I'm like, I don't want to give it all away. 602 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,480 He's still live. 603 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:21,480 But he's kind of in communicato with people that doesn't respond to a request of for, you know, talking to him about things. 604 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,480 But he lived, he lived with the stockwell family for a while. 605 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:29,480 Kind of stock. Yeah, yeah. 606 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:41,480 And some other people he and you know, they kind of lost contact with him. It seems like he did have some issues with his with his internment that, well, of course you would. 607 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:47,480 But I, you know, I, again, I encourage people to go out in this book, especially if you're a Vietnam veteran. 608 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:53,480 And you want to know a little bit more about what was going on in Hanoi and even what is going on. 609 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,480 This book is so thorough, folks. 610 00:38:55,480 --> 00:39:00,480 He talks about the history of the Canberra, the cruiser that he was on. 611 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:05,480 It was the stuff I never knew. 612 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:13,480 It's so thoroughly researched and some great, just great information that lets you know what other branches are doing. 613 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:18,480 You know, earlier on we were talking with Marines and you learn a little bit more about what Marines do. 614 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:26,480 And now I learned a little bit about, you know, four guys living down in this steam room 20 hours a day. 615 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:31,480 But anyway, so in closing, I guess I better say, so Mark, what would you like to say about this book? 616 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,480 It is now available everywhere. 617 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,480 It is available, actually. 618 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:37,480 Yeah. 619 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:43,480 It's on the online bookstores. Your local bookstore should have it, like I said, even though the official pub date isn't. 620 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:50,480 In fact, there was a really great article in the independent newspaper UK reporter interviewed me. 621 00:39:50,480 --> 00:40:04,480 And it came out a week ago today and we, I just wanted to say the book became the number one bestselling Vietnam War history book on Amazon last Sunday. 622 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:13,480 And now it's still up there number three. So yeah, it's called the unlikely war hero by Mark Leapson. 623 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,480 Read it. That's an order. 624 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,480 Okay guys. All right, we got to go. 625 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:19,480 I love it. 626 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:21,480 Thanks Mark. 627 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:25,480 All right, it was kind of a short program today, but we got it all in. 628 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:37,480 So I wanted to make sure that every week we go out on a version of God bless America and today's is done by Jimmy Fortin and Sonya. 629 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:38,480 Thank you yearly. 630 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:40,480 And it's just God bless America. 631 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:42,480 So all of you will see you next week. 632 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:44,480 We'll be back for all of us here. 633 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:56,480 God bless America. 634 00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:03,480 Land that I love. 635 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,480 Stand beside her. 636 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,480 And guide her. 637 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:15,480 Through the night with a light from above. 638 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:24,480 From the mountains to the prairies to the oceans. 639 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:28,480 White with foam. 640 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:33,480 God bless America. 641 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:40,480 My home sweet home. 642 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:45,480 God bless America. 643 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:52,480 My home sweet home. 644 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:57,480 God bless America. 645 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:03,480 Land that I love. 646 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,480 Stand beside her. 647 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,480 And guide her. 648 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:15,480 Through the night with a light from above. 649 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:23,480 From the mountains to the prairies to the oceans. 650 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:27,480 White with foam. 651 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:32,480 God bless America. 652 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:39,480 My home sweet home. 653 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:44,480 God bless America. 654 00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:54,480 My home sweet home.