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If you're of a certain age, you know the marine by the name of Pappy Boyington.
Largely you know this from an old TV series that you can still find being replayed, but
certainly on YouTube sort of platforms called Baba Black Sheep.
Pappy Boyington was a rebel of a marine fighter pilot, found himself heading up a squadron
of sort of misfits, which created a great way to tell a story for Hollywood.
So you may know him as Pappy Boyington because he was an old man flying with the kids.
But here's a story that we wrote on and gave more detail about his adventures and misadventures.
He was a pretty flawed guy.
A lot of marriages, a lot of drinking problems, hell of a pilot, hell of a leader.
So I think you'll find this interview interesting.
As I said, we wrote on this for a Beyond Belief book that you can find on Amazon.
We also put it up on HomeofHeroes.org, a website that we curate of stories of men and women
in the military, of valor, sometimes metal of honor, sometimes flying aces, all sorts
of different stories that we think you'll find interesting.
So this interview, we also think you will find of interest.
So listen in.
Welcome to your deep dive.
Today we're going to be talking about an American legend, Gregory Pappy Boyington,
World War II fighter ace.
You sent over a chapter from his biography.
Honestly just giving through it, I can tell this guy was one of a kind.
So let's get into it.
Let's uncover what made Pappy such a fascinating and maybe contradictory figure.
Yeah, get ready for a wild ride because Pappy's story is anything but straightforward.
Oh, I love it already.
This guy was incredible, like a pilot, a natural leader, but also constantly battling
his own demons.
He had a serious aversion to following the rules.
Okay, that already has me hooked.
Where do we even begin with a guy like this?
His early life maybe, what kind of kid grows up to be a Pappy Boyington?
Yeah, well, it's fascinating.
He was actually born in Cordy Lane, Idaho, beautiful part of the country.
But what's really interesting is his heritage, a mix of brulee, sue and Irish ancestry.
Talk about a recipe for a fighting spirit, right?
Right.
I didn't realize he had Native American roots and that definitely adds another layer to
the picture.
Absolutely.
And I heard he was a pretty serious athlete too, even before he took to the skies.
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, wrestling was his thing.
He actually won the Pacific Northwest Intercollegiate Middleweight title while he was at the University
of Washington.
Get out.
Oh, and he was also on the swimming team.
Okay.
So, seems like that competitive drive was just part of his DNA.
Okay.
So, we've got this tough athletic kid with a mixed heritage and a competitive streak
a mile wide.
How does he go from there to becoming a fighter pilot?
Well, his path to the cockpit was, shall we say, unconventional.
He started out in the Army ROTC, got his degree in Aeronautical Engineering.
He was even commissioned as an officer in the Army Coast Artillery Reserve.
And like he was all set for a military career, but then he hit a snag.
The Aviation Cadet Act back then wouldn't let married men join.
Oh, so he was married.
And this was a deal breaker for his flying dreams.
Yeah.
What did he do?
He pulled a classic Papi move.
Remember, he grew up using his stepfather's last name, Hallenbeck.
But then when he kind of dug a little deeper, he found out his biological father's name
was Boynton, Lightbulb.
He resigns as Army Commission, adopts his birth name, and applies to the Marine Corps
Aviation Cadet Program.
No record of a Gregory Boynton being married.
Smart.
Problem solved.
Wow.
Talk about thinking outside the box.
I mean, I guess it was technically legal, but definitely a bold move.
Yeah.
Makes you wonder if that kind of rule bending was already a part of his personality.
Oh, yeah.
I think it's safe to say that Papi had his own way of doing things even back then.
And you can imagine that didn't always sit well with those in charge.
Yeah, I bet.
But hey, it got him into the cockpit and eventually it landed him a spot with the legendary Flying
Tigers in Burma, right?
Now that's where things start to get really interesting.
What drew him to such a risky venture?
Well, you got to remember, Papi was never one to shy away from a challenge or a good
fight.
Plus, the Flying Tigers were offering a significantly higher salary than the Marines.
And you know, we know Papi was always chasing a bigger paycheck.
Yeah, yeah.
But I think it went deeper than just the money.
Okay.
So what else was going on?
Remember that competitive streak we talked about?
Yeah.
Well, he was itching to prove himself in combat, you know, to go up against the best of the
best.
And the Flying Tigers offered him that chance to test his skills against Japanese pilots
in some of the most dangerous skies in the world.
So it was a mix of ambition, a thirst for adventure, and maybe a little bit of that rebellious
spirit too.
Exactly.
It sounds like a perfect storm for a guy like Papi.
It was.
And all played out in Burma where he racked up six aerial victories against the Japanese.
But even amidst the success, that independent streak of his started to cause some friction.
It did.
Wait.
So he was winning dogfights, racking up kills, but still managed to ruffle some feathers.
He did.
That's classic, Papi.
Who was he butting heads with this time?
His commanding officer, Claire Chenal.
Now, Chenal was a brilliant strategist, legend in his own right, but he was also a stickler
for discipline and following orders.
Let's just say Papi's freewheeling style and his fondness for whiskey didn't exactly
mesh with Chenal's way of running things.
The whiskey.
I knew that was coming up sooner or later.
It seems like his love for the bottle followed him everywhere he went.
Oh, it certainly did.
And it definitely played a role in some of his clashes with authority.
Yeah.
I mean, he even admitted later on that he drank excessively.
And there are stories of him showing up for briefings, still feeling the effects from
the night before.
Oh, man.
So even with his incredible talent, those personal demons were always lurking in the
background.
Did this tension with Chenal lead to him leaving the Flying Tigers?
Well, it certainly didn't help, but bigger events were on the horizon.
Remember this was 1941 and the world was on the brink of war.
When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, Papi knew he had to get back to the Marines and
into the fight.
And that's where the Black Sheep Squadron comes in.
Right.
Okay, I'm so ready for this.
Yeah.
But first, can we pause for a second and rewind a little?
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that he just quit the army and joined
the Marines like it was no big deal.
Yeah.
Like what?
That's a pretty wild story, right?
But it tells you a lot about the kind of guy Papi was.
He wasn't afraid to take risks, bend the rules, forge his own path.
Even if it meant leaving a perfectly good career behind.
Right.
You know, you mentioned his fondness for whiskey earlier.
Do you think that was just a personal advice or was it something more?
Was he trying to escape something?
That's a great question.
And I think it gets to the heart of who Papi was, the complexities he carried with him.
Was he trying to numb some inner pain?
Was it a way to cope with the pressure, the constant danger of his life?
Or maybe it was just part of his rebellious nature, a way to thumb his nose at authority.
It's hard to say for sure.
Yeah.
I guess we'll never know for sure what was going on inside his head, but it's definitely
something to think about as we explore the rest of his story.
Okay.
So we've got this picture of Papi Boyington, incredibly talented, fearless in the air,
but also wrestling with his own demons and a constant need to push the boundaries.
Then Pearl Harbor happens and he's back in the Marines, ready to take on the Japanese.
What happens next?
Bring on the Black Sheep.
Welcome back to our deep dive into the life of Papi Boyington.
Last time we left him itching to get back into the fight after Pearl Harbor, he finds
himself in the Solomon Islands, a chaotic, sweltering jungle battleground.
This is where he's about to make history.
Okay.
This is where the Black Sheep Squadron comes in, right?
You got it.
Okay.
I'm so ready for this.
The Black Sheep Squadron of misfits led by an older, unconventional commander Papi himself.
Tell me everything.
Exactly.
But to understand the Black Sheep, we've got to talk about the plane they flew.
The F4U Corsair.
Now any aviation buff will tell you this thing was a beast, fast, maneuverable, and packing
a serious punch with those 6.50 caliber machine guns.
But it was also notoriously difficult to handle, especially during landings.
Some pilots even called it the Ensign Eliminator because of its tendency to stall.
The Ensign Eliminator, that sounds a bit ominous.
Yeah.
So why was this the plane they chose for the Black Sheep?
Well for one, the Marines were trying to get the most out of this powerful new aircraft.
Okay.
And Papi, with his experience and aggressive flying style, was seen as the perfect guy
to lead the charge.
Pleak sense.
Plus the Corsair's strengths, its speed, its climb rate, its ability to turn tight,
those were all things that played right into Papi's hands.
And starting to see why the Corsair and the Black Sheep were such a good match.
What about the squadron itself?
You mentioned they were a group of misfits.
What did that mean exactly?
Think about it.
It's 1943, the fighting in the Pacific is brutal, and the Marines are stretched thin.
The Black Sheep Squadron, officially designated VMF 214, wasn't formed with a hand-picked
group of elite pilots.
It was a mix of replacements, guys who had washed out of other squadrons, and some pilots
who just didn't fit in elsewhere.
So a bunch of rejects and oddballs thrown together with a hard-drinking, rule-bending
commander.
This sounds like a recipe for disaster.
You would think so, right?
But that's what makes the story so incredible.
Under Papi's leadership, these guys became one of the most successful and celebrated
fighter squadrons of the war.
They went from being the underdogs to being the guys everyone wanted on their wing.
How did he do it?
I mean, we know Papi was a skilled pilot and a natural leader.
But how did he turn this ragtag group into a cohesive fighting unit?
Well, for one, he led by example.
He was always the first one into the fight, and he always chose to fly the plane in the
worst condition.
Wow.
He never asked his men to do anything he wouldn't do himself.
And he believed in them, even when they doubted themselves.
He saw their potential, their talent, and he pushed them to be their best.
That's leadership.
But what about his superiors?
Surely, that rebellious streak of his continued to cause some friction.
Oh, you better believe it.
His relationship with his commanding officer, a guy he called Colonel Lard in his book,
was legendary for all the wrong reasons.
Lard was a by the book Marine, everything done by the regulations.
And he saw Papi as a loose cannon, a liability waiting to happen.
Papi, on the other hand, saw Lard as a paper pusher, more concerned with paperwork than
with fighting the war.
Ah, sounds like a classic clash of personalities.
It was.
And alcohol probably didn't help smooth things over.
Not at all.
There are stories of Papi showing up for briefings hungover, or even sneaking a drink or two
before mission.
Seriously.
Yeah, drove Lard crazy.
Wow.
And it's amazing Papi managed to stay in command as long as he did.
But Papi also had supporters in high places.
Yeah, like General Knutz Moore and General Chesty Polar, those are some legendary Marines.
Exactly.
They recognized Papi's talent, his raw ability, and they were willing to overlook some of his,
you know, less than stellar behavior.
Yeah, right.
They saw him as a valuable asset, a guy who could get the job done, even if it meant bending
the rules a little.
It's like they saw the good outweighing the bad, even if it was a close call sometimes.
So with the black sheep, Papi was leading this group of misfits, flying this amazing
but tricky plane, and constantly pushing the limits with his superiors.
What was it like for them in the air?
Were they as successful as I'm imagining?
Oh, successful is an understatement.
These guys were racking up victories against the Japanese.
And Papi was leading the charge, always eager to engage the enemy, always pushing the limits
of what was possible in the air.
Okay, give me some details.
I want to hear about the dogfights, the close calls, the sheer audacity of what they were
pulling off.
Imagine this.
Papi, at the age of 31, leading his squad in a corsair against a much larger force of
Japanese zeros.
Oh, wow.
Now, the zero was known for its maneuverability, but the corsair had the edge in speed and
firepower.
And Papi knew how to use those advantages to his advantage.
So he's out there going toe to toe with the best the Japanese could throw at him.
What kind of tactics was he using?
He was aggressive, for sure.
He believed in hitting the enemy hard and fast, disrupting their formations and taking
them by surprise.
He wasn't afraid to get in close to mix it up in a swirling dogfight.
Oh, man.
And he was a master of using the corsair's strengths, its speed and climb rate, to out
mess with the zeros.
I bet that was a sight to behold.
And all the while, he's chasing Eddie Rickenbacker's ace record, right?
Yes.
The pressure must have been immense.
Oh, it was.
Every mission was a chance to add to his tally, inch closer to that legendary mark.
He was already a hero, but that record, that would cement his place in history.
So he's pushing himself, pushing his squadron, pushing the limits of what's possible.
Did he ever reach that record?
He came close.
He set up with 28 confirmed victories, just shy of Rickenbacker's 26.
But even without breaking the record, his achievements were legendary.
He was awarded the Navy Cross, the Medal of Honor, and became a symbol of American courage
and fighting spirit.
Incredible.
But there's a dark side to this story, too, right?
Yeah.
A moment where everything changes.
There is.
It happened on January 3, 1944.
Okay.
Papi was leading a fighter sweep over Rebelle, a heavily fortified Japanese base in New Britain.
They encountered a large force of enemy fighters, and the sky erupted in this chaotic ballet
of twisting metal and tracers.
I can only imagine.
Papi scored his 27th and 28th victories that day, but then...
Then what?
What happened?
He was hit.
Oh, no.
His corsair riddled with bullets, burst into flames.
He managed to bail out, but he was alone, surrounded by enemy territory and with a long
swim ahead of him.
Oh, no.
This is where his story takes that dark turn, right?
The prisoner of war years.
It is.
I mean, I know he survived because we're talking about it, but 20 months as a POW, that must
have been an unimaginable ordeal.
It was.
He was picked up by a Japanese submarine, and his journey through hell began.
He was beaten, starved, interrogated, and shuffled between different POW camps, including
the notorious Ofuna and Omori camps.
Those are brutal places.
I've heard accounts from other POWs who survived those camps, and it's just horrific, the conditions,
the cruelty, the psychological torture.
How did Pappy survive that?
It's hard to say, but his resilience, his stubbornness, that same fighting spirit that
had gotten him through so many battles, it must have played a role.
There's also something to be said for his dark humor, his ability to find a glimmer
of absurdity even in the darkest of times.
I guess sometimes you have to laugh to keep from crying.
But he wasn't completely alone in those camps, right?
Didn't he meet another famous POW, Louis Amperini?
They did cross paths in Omori towards the end of the war.
Two incredible men both facing unimaginable hardship, finding a moment of connection in
the midst of hell.
It's amazing to think that they both came out of that alive.
But there's something else, isn't there?
Something almost unbelievable that happened while Pappy was a prisoner.
It is!
It's one of those twists of fate that you couldn't make up.
While he was still a captive, presumed dead by the outside world, Pappy Boyington was
awarded the Medal of Honor.
Wow, what a strange and incredible twist to be honored for your bravery while you're
suffering in a POW camp.
It's almost too much to comprehend.
What was the citation like?
What did it say about Pappy and his actions?
Yeah, you're about to hear something truly remarkable.
But let's save that for next time.
We've covered so much ground already, and I think we need a moment to let everything
sink in.
You're right.
This is a lot to process.
We've gone from the thrill of victory to the depths of despair, and now this incredible
twist with the Medal of Honor.
I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to hear what happens next.
Okay, I've had a moment to catch my breath.
We left off with Pappy Boyington as a POW, facing unimaginable hardship, and then bam,
he's awarded the Medal of Honor.
It's almost hard to reconcile those two realities.
So let's hear it.
What did the citation say?
Well, the Medal of Honor citation is really a powerful testament to Pappy's courage and
leadership.
He talks about his extraordinary heroism, his brilliant airmanship, and his utter disregard
for personal danger.
It highlights how despite facing overwhelming odds, he consistently led his squadron against
the enemy, inflicting heavy casualties and inspiring his men to achieve incredible feats.
Yeah, I'm getting chills just thinking about it.
To receive such an honor while enduring the horrors of a POW camp, it must have been a
surreal experience.
It was, and it gets even more interesting when you compare the Medal of Honor citation
to the one he received for the Navy Cross, which was actually presented to him first
in December of 1945.
You see, the Navy Cross citation paints this picture of a daring, tenacious, fearless leader,
a brilliant tactician.
Okay, so far so good.
It sounds like a pretty accurate description of Pappy.
What's the catch?
Well, it's what the Navy Cross citation doesn't say that's so fascinating.
It completely glosses over the other side of Pappy.
The rule breaker, the hard-headed maverick, the guy who loved his whiskey a little too
much, the guy who constantly clashed with authority.
It's like they tried to sanitize him for the official record.
So two very different versions of Pappy, depending on which citation you read, how did he react
to receiving these awards, especially knowing the discrepancies between the official narrative
and the reality of who he was?
He actually called the Navy Cross a booby prize compared to the Medal of Honor.
Really?
He was that unimpressed.
It seems that way.
Maybe it felt too conventional to buy the book for a guy who spent his whole life bucking
the system.
The Medal of Honor ceremony, on the other hand, that was a different story.
He found it much more fitting.
The solemnity, the dignity of the occasion.
It seemed to resonate with him on a deeper level.
It makes you wonder what was going through his mind during those ceremonies.
Here he is, this decorated war hero, but he's also a man wrestling with his own personal
demons.
Did that recognition, those awards, bring him any peace?
That's the million dollar question, isn't it?
And I think it leads us right into the most complicated part of Pappy's story, his life
after the war.
Right, because the war ends, he's a national hero, but his struggles don't magically
disappear, do they?
Unfortunately, no.
He came home to a world that had moved on and he struggled to find his place in it.
He tried to stay in the Marines, but his physical condition wasn't what it used to be.
Years of hard living, the injuries from his combat missions, the toll of his time as a
TOW had taken their toll.
So even with the Medal of Honor, a military career wasn't in the cards.
It was complicated.
There were bureaucratic hurdles, concerns about his health, and maybe even some lingering
doubts about his past behavior.
It's hard to say for sure what ultimately tipped the scales against him staying in the
corps.
But on the personal front, was he able to find stability and happiness after everything
he'd been through?
Sadly, no.
His personal life was tumultuous.
He went through multiple marriages, always searching for something, as he put it, to
be wanted.
Wow.
It's a heartbreaking statement, especially coming from a man who had achieved so much.
It makes you wonder if all the accolades, all the fame, could ever truly fill the void
he felt inside.
That's a really poignant observation.
It's like he was constantly chasing something that always seemed to be just out of reach.
What about his finances?
Did he ever find financial security?
You'd think a war hero with his level of fame would be set for life, right?
But the reality was far more complicated.
Remember, Pappy had always been chasing a bigger paycheck.
Even before the war.
He struggled with money her whole life, and even with his newfound celebrity, he couldn't
seem to escape those financial woes.
He bounced around from job to job, trying to capitalize on his name recognition, but
nothing seemed to stick.
Wow.
That's surprising.
But then there's that whole wrestling thing, right?
I mean, Pappy Boyington, war hero, Medal of Honor recipient, becomes a wrestling referee.
How did that even happen?
It's one of the most bizarre twists in his story.
He spent several years working professional wrestling matches, not as a wrestler himself,
but as the referee.
What?
That's wild.
Why in the world would he choose that path?
It's hard to say for sure, but I think there are a few things that play here.
Remember, Pappy was a showman at heart.
He loved the spotlight, the adrenaline, the roar of the crowd, and wrestling, even as a
referee offered him a taste of that.
Plus, it was a world where he could bend the rules, be a bit of a rogue, and still be adored
by the fans.
I guess in a way it makes sense.
It was a world where he could be himself, flaws and all, and still be celebrated.
It's both sad and fascinating at the same time.
Exactly.
And of course, there's the TV show, Ba Ba Black Sheep, which brought him a whole new
wave of fame, but also added another layer of complexity to his life.
Right.
The show that made him a household name for another generation.
But we talked about how he had mixed feelings about it.
Can you remind us what those were?
Well, he appreciated the recognition, of course, but he also criticized the show for its inaccuracies.
It's Hollywood Hockham, as he called it.
He felt it glossed over the realities of war, the sacrifices, the losses, and maybe, just
maybe, it presented a version of himself that he wasn't entirely comfortable with.
It's interesting, isn't it?
He seemed to crave recognition, to be wanted, but then when he got it, it wasn't quite
what he expected.
It's like he could never quite reconcile the image the world had of him with the reality
of who he was.
Yeah, it's a struggle many people face, I think, especially those who live in the public
eye, the pressure to live up to expectations to maintain a certain image can be incredibly
isolating.
So how did it all end for Pappy?
Did he ever find peace, resolution, in those final years?
His final chapter was bittersweet.
He passed away from cancer in 1988 at the age of 75.
His fourth wife was by his side.
He had experienced incredible highs and devastating lows throughout his life, including the tragic
loss of one of his children to suicide.
But he also had reasons to be proud.
His son followed in his footsteps, graduating from the U.S. Air Force Academy and retiring
as a Lieutenant Colonel after a successful military career.
What a rollercoaster of a life.
Triumphs, tragedies, contradictions.
It's almost too much to process.
What do we make of it all?
What's the take away from this incredible, messy, complicated story?
I think Pappy's story reminds us that heroism isn't a simple equation.
It's not about being perfect or flawless.
It's about facing adversity.
Filling your own demons and finding a way to make a difference in the world even when
you're struggling to make sense of your own life.
It's a powerful reminder that heroes are human with all the complexities and contradictions
that come with being human.
They make mistakes.
They struggle.
They...
Pappy Boynton was a flawed hero, no doubt.
But his story is a testament to the resilience of the human spirit, the enduring power of
courage, and the importance of embracing our own complexities.
Well said.
Pappy's life was a wild ride.
A story full of twists and turns, triumphs and tragedies.
It's a story that stays with you long after you've heard it.
And I think we've only scratched the surface here today.
There's so much more to explore to understand about this incredible and enigmatic figure.
This deep dive into Pappy Boynton's life is just the beginning.
We encourage you to dig deeper, read his autobiography, Ba Ba Black Sheep, learn more
about the Black Sheep Squadron, and consider the complexities of heroism in the face of
personal flaws.
What resonates with you the most?
What questions linger in your mind?
What are your own takeaways from this deep dive?
We'd love to hear your thoughts.
Thanks for joining us on this journey through the life of a true American legend.
Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning, and keep diving deep.
This interview on Pappy Boynton just scratches the surface really of a pretty complex guy.
Like most of us are, I suppose.
This was an AI-generated interview.
It was created out of a chapter that we wrote.
And so we know it has solid bones and content, and we hope you enjoyed listening to a little
bit of it here on Veterans Radio.
And I want to thank everybody for listening to Veterans Radio today.
I am Jim Fossone.
It's been a pleasure to be your host.
I'm a Veterans Disability Lawyer at Legal Help for Veterans, and you can reach us at
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