All across America and around the world, this is Veterans Radio.
This is Veterans Radio.
Welcome to Veterans Radio.
I am Jim Fossone.
I'm the officer of the deck today.
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We want to welcome to Veterans Radio today Brandy Hill, Dr. Brandy Hill.
She is going to talk to us about a subject we've talked about before on Veterans Radio
and that is Veterans exposure to PFAS chemicals, sometimes known as the forever chemical.
Brandy, welcome to Veterans Radio.
Well, thank you so much, Jim.
It's a pleasure to be here with you and all of your listeners.
Well, we appreciate the time you're making for us.
We know you're traveling and getting this in is really timely.
So you have a doctorate in public health as well as a master's in public health, which
and you've done some writing on the cumulative exposure to PFAS substances impacting veteran
cancer diagnosis, which we'll talk about.
But before we get there, tell us why you're interested in veteran health issues and a
little bit of your background.
Yeah, no worries.
Thank you so much.
So on a 25 year US Air Force veteran I retired back in 2019.
The entire time I spent working in a military medical facility, I spent my years there managing
teams of individuals who were enabling superior healthcare for all of the military members
as well as their families.
But after I did my retirement, I decided I wanted to be a health educator.
So off to go work as a health educator I did.
But I left to continue to make a mark in the impact specifically on military members.
So my husband and I, we have three wonderful children, 27, 23 and 18.
My oldest son serves in the military as well as his wife serves in the military and they
are the parents of my fantastic 18 month old grandson.
So it's a family concern for us with my husband's background and my background and both of our
fathers also serving both of their father serving.
You can see how this extrapolates as a thought process for us to kind of go after.
But during my active duty time, education became a huge priority.
So although I started a slow road to progress, if you will, my pathway was a wine v1.
So I originally started out as a logistician in the Air Force, which doesn't seem like
it has any kind of impact to health.
However, I was deploying and doing a whole bunch of humanitarian missions.
And during those humanitarian missions, my job as a logistician was to also act like
a pseudo pharmacy tech.
So my job was to hand out and deliver pharmaceuticals to the community members that we were serving.
With that, I became interested in pharmacology.
So I decided to go after my certified pharmacy tech certification.
So once I got that, I started doing some time in the pharmacy and realized that pharmaceuticals
were just a really good way of us to continue to treat symptoms, but maybe not get after
root causes.
So then I decided to head on over to the nutrition world where I got my bachelor's in nutritional
medicine.
Then I found out nobody really wanted to listen to a dietitian, right?
Yes.
In addition to that, you know, it all really boils down to education.
And the more we know, the more we grow and knowledges power and iron sharpens iron.
So that's why I went after my MPH and got my master's in public health.
Well, on top of that, I decided what really mattered to me was being able to help educate
others.
And so I wanted to be able to do independent research.
In order to do successful independent research, I needed to get my doctorate.
And so that is why I went after my doctorate public health in this kind of weeds us up to
where I am today.
Well, it's a typical story of somebody who gets started in one road.
And then as you say, it's kind of a windy road where you end up.
Life is rarely a straight line, and we have to embrace all those curves along the way.
So I wanted that outlined because I want our veteran radio listeners to understand that
your interest in this area is personal.
It's with passion.
It's not just some, sometimes we talk to these PhDs or doctors and it's kind of very
egg-heady, but there's more here because of your family and life experiences.
But let's start with the basics.
As I said, we've talked about it before, but I'm sure not everybody understands what PFAS
chemicals or forever chemicals are all about.
Can you give us a thumbnail sketch of that?
Surely.
So PFASs or perinpolythloral alkali synthesis, that's a whole lot to say, but they really
originated back in the 1950s.
And in the 1960s when they got their first patent, which is fantastic, and they were
really useful for a whole lot of things, such as your normal nonstick cookware.
The item or the spray that you put on furniture to keep it water resistant or soil resistant.
So it's pretty much in everything we touch on an everyday basis.
There's thousands of these chemicals.
The unfortunate part about these chemicals though is they are forever and have been deemed
as the forever chemical because there's really no way to get rid of them.
Interestingly enough, the ASFF, which is the firefighting foam that's so proliferant around
Air Force bases, specifically our military installations that may have JPA or other fuel
fires.
That was actually patented in 1966, and we started using it in petroleum based firefighting
in the 1970s.
And these are man made chemicals?
They are man made chemicals, yes.
And they don't have a natural breakdown process, if I understand it.
No, that's why they're forever because there's no way for our environment to really just
get rid of them and flush them away.
And so when they do off slough into other parts of our environment, our water, our soil,
there they stay to contaminate things like the cows that graze on the grass, the water
inside your lake, seep into our water drinking systems.
You just pointed out these have been around now maybe 40, 60, 60 some years maybe in commercial
practice, which in the real world, it really isn't that long.
It's better living through chemicals approach.
They're great when they start and then we use them for two or three or four decades and
then find out, hmm, there are some side effects.
Is that kind of what's going on here?
For sure.
So originally it was like, oh, look at this, it's really awesome.
And then they found out like, oh yeah, hey, by the way, this also can cause or has been
linked to cancer, liver damage, immune system changes, all of these not so wonderful benefits
of this very helpful substance.
But if you go back and do some research, you can find where some of the leading companies
who were making this and distributing it way back in the heyday had some indication that
this was probably not safe for people.
You did the research.
That's why we have you on and you wrote, as I say, your dissertation was cumulative exposure
to, and I'm just going to call them PFAS impacting veteran cancer diagnosis is the title of us.
And you used a particular data set, this 10 year data set to examine these relationships.
Tell us what you were, what you went in thinking and what you kind of came out thinking.
So I went in thinking, you know, I'm surrounded by people in my life who served in various
different ways in the military.
And a lot of them, an alarming rate of them have had some sort of cancer.
And so I wanted to figure out, is there a linkage to perhaps where we are, what we're
doing and what kind of exposures we may have?
And so, anyways, that's what I went in thinking was, can I find a linkage to exposure?
And then what I found out was, there are some very interesting linkages.
So for one, military service members are actually 11% more inclined to have some sort
of cancer diagnosis.
Additionally, it's been noted that with certain different kinds of cancers, it's actually
25 to 40% higher in veterans than it is in the civilian sector.
And so that's why it was so important for me to be able to do this research and kind
of find out what is going on.
Now when I did use, like you said, a publicly available data set, this was not a data set
that was actually given to me by the DOD or it's not specific military information.
It came straight from the NHATES, which is a national representative data set.
I used the years 2005 to 2015 to really kind of underscore, looking at a 10-year area,
what kind of diagnosis is people getting?
And what I found in that was that there was quite the interest.
So you know, cancer alone, there's about 450,000 veterans suffering with diagnosis of cancer.
There's about 50,000 added each year.
So you can tell that that's pretty impressive to get that many people.
Now looking specifically at PFAS, there was 24 DOD drinking water systems with 564 surrounding
areas that actually were a higher level of PFAS than what you're supposed to have according
to the EPA allowable limits.
So that's crazy.
And then looking at another statistic, so there was 12 times higher the PFAS serum concentrations
in US veterans than US population.
So what could that all come from?
You know, you're looking at a higher risk of disease.
You're looking at a higher PFAS serum concentration.
Where is this all boiling down from?
So this is kind of where I was starting to look at.
What I wanted to really find out though was prostate cancer, liver damage, thyroid disease.
These were the ones that I was like specifically looking and delving into.
And I want to stop for a minute because exposure to PFAS in the military can come from all kinds
of different vectors.
You've mentioned contaminated groundwater, but it's a lot more than just that, isn't
it?
Yes.
So contaminated groundwater, you've got the firefighting foam I had mentioned earlier.
Then you've got to look at all of the different has and solutions that our service members
are actually subjected to.
So those are unique.
Then you top that off with the fact that the average adult only moves 11 times in their
entire life.
Well, a service member is going to change their environment every four to six years.
So this was really interesting.
This is the part when I read your paper, I went, I didn't think about it this way, the
cumulative exposure.
Continue talk to us about that.
So every environment that you impact or that you come across is going to actually impact
your health.
So the Environmental Protection Agency has said environmental hazards, they encompass
our physical, biological, chemical, cultural, and social aspects, and all of them can be
associated with adverse outcomes like cancers and cardiovascular disease.
That's straight from the EPA in 2022.
So when you think about the fact that we are changing our locations, we're changing our
environments every four to six years.
And then couple that with for one of the mill, a few handfuls or so deployments for each
person, you've changed your environment so many times.
And in each of those places, you're going to live in a circumstance or a surrounding
area to a base that may or may not have the same situation as the base, you're going to
be moving potentially to a different country that has completely different rules of engagement
when it comes to what you're doing.
And then you throw in the deployment hazards.
So it's very important to look at the environment in a holistic sense.
So not just, oh, well, people lived someplace, but where did you live and how did you live
and how do we really kind of look at that?
How does a private doctor, medical doctor, when looking at a veteran even sort out what
those exposures, cumulative exposures might have been?
And I guess that leads to is like there are a test for this.
So that is a very, very good question.
And it was one of the questions that I had myself.
So when you're looking at it and you think you go to the doctor, the first thing the
doctor is going to ask you is about your health history.
But they're going to ask specifically about have you smoked, do you drink, has your dad
had the photo, that's a vascular issue.
They don't ask you where you've been and what you've been exposed to.
But we know that the environment really adds to your health as a holistic health.
So no, there isn't a way right now for that to be part of it.
But if you go and you research, which I did, and there's a thing it's called precision
medicine and precision medicine is all about really understanding a person as a whole and
not just a sum of symptoms.
So understanding where have you been, what have you been exposed to, you know, what not
just what your health history is in your family health history, like looking at the total
big picture, because each person is a puzzle and we are all very unique, especially when
it comes to exposures.
So we're talking veteran radio listeners to Dr. Brandy Hill, who has her PhD in public
health.
She studied and wrote on the cumulative exposure of PFASs impacting veteran diagnosis.
And we are not going to ask her about the tools she used, such as Pearson correlations
and multiple linear regression, because I don't even know how to ask those questions
and I wouldn't understand the answers.
But I think it's important for our veteran radio listeners to understand the complexity
of how PFAS exposure may be impacting them.
And I want to use this point to jump in and say, VA has recently announced that it's going
to do more research in the area of linking kidney cancer and exposure to PFASs on military
bases.
And if they make that link, it could be very beneficial for veterans if that becomes a
presumptive and it's much easier to get VA benefits.
But I want to make the point, it's only kidney cancer they're looking at.
And you just gave me a whole list of things that you looked at.
So is kidney cancer just too small of a universe to be looking at, Dr. Hill?
Well, so you've got to start somewhere, right?
And when it comes to the VA, especially when they're looking at the presumptive, they've
got to start somewhere.
There is so many things that are listed.
I mean, even testicular cancer is listed as a possible problem, a possible health implication
of PFAS.
And that actually came out like many years ago.
I mean, this was researched on in 2018 by a colleague.
So this information is out there, but you have to start somewhere.
And we're just starting to scratch the surface.
So I think that's really important because if you look at what's really happened over
the last couple of years and look at the past that, they're starting to really go back to
something that was in the military when I first came in back in 1995.
So that's a long, long time ago.
But we had what was called PPIP, which is put prevention and practice.
That was a whole military medical solution set.
And we're starting to go back to that.
We're starting to look at what are the things that impact our health.
And we're scratching the surface to see if we can provide those linkages so that we can
get after our future health.
Because if we can identify things, even if it's just starting with kidney cancer and
then moving on to other cancers such as testicular, prostate, liver damage, thyroid disease, we'll
be able to scratch the surface more and try and hopefully get more and more of these things
connected and get the veterans the care that they deserve.
Yeah.
And you have to bring it.
I agree with you.
You got to start somewhere and you have to bring it to attention of people, including
those private doctors I was mentioning that may not, you know, so few people serve in
the military, so few medical people serve in the military, wouldn't even know how to
ask maybe the right questions.
And even today, I saw an article that came out where out of the University of Southern
California looking at PFAS levels in the blood of young adults, 19 to 24, they found those
in the highest levels of PFAS in their blood had a sleep problem, a sleep deprivation problem,
sleep disorder and we know in the military, sleep is critical and often interrupted in
a lot of different ways, but you also have to wonder like, hmm, I wonder if any of it's
environmental.
So there's a lot of room for more research, isn't there, Dr. Hill?
Yes, there really is.
And, you know, like I said before, we're just starting to scratch the surface into, you
know, these things and the problems that they've caused and how we can get around them.
I mean, if you think about it, like you said earlier, you know, the 1960s really wasn't
that long ago, you know, in the grand scheme of things.
And so we're just now starting to see these implications and being able to really put
together that picture because it takes time, you know, exposure to, to answers, it takes
time and you have to get enough people, unfortunately, to participate in the studies in order to
get the information and really uncover where those connective tissues are.
Because without enough people, you know, like you said, the military members are, it's a
very small amount of the population.
And so we have to get more data.
Well that's answered like a true doctorate in public health and research.
You always need more data.
But again, I think it's great that you can explain this in layman's terms to our veteran
radio listeners.
And I often get to ask those we interview about, you know, their, their experiences in the
military and if they would still recommend to sons and daughters and nieces and nephews
going in the military.
I do this because we have such a recruiting crisis going on.
But you've kind of already answered that.
I take it you were very supportive of your son and his wife being in the military.
Oh, for sure.
Yes.
I'm, I'm a huge supporter of military service.
I think that everybody could really get some valuable lessons, whether it's four years
or 25 years.
You can really learn a lot about yourself.
I can really grow as a person and understand the systems of our country.
I, you know, I couldn't recommend it more.
Additionally, it gives you so much if you give it to the service because I learned a whole
lot of different locations.
I was able to see things from a different point of view.
I really kind of grow my goals and not to mention I got all the way through my master's
degree and never paid for school.
I mean, that to me is a huge thing because there's so many people in debt for education.
Yeah, there's great opportunities there and we shouldn't scare people off.
They should really explore it.
And once you get in, as you saw, you don't know where your career is going to take you,
but it may take you somewhere where you're really happy you ended up.
So it's, it's a great opportunity.
Brandy Hill, thank you for taking some time to us to explain PFAS and cumulative exposure
and the research that's being going on to make sure we understand how that exposure
is impacting veterans.
Fantastic.
Thank you so much.
And just to kind of give you a preview of what my next study is, not that you, you may
or may not want it to know this, but my next study is again, specifically pointing out
the veterans because they're again my population of choice.
But I'm going to be looking into Parkinson's and occupational hazards.
Very interesting.
Well, we look forward to when that's done.
Maybe we can talk again.
Sounds great.
Thank you so much, Jim.
And again, thank you so much to your listeners for letting me spend the last couple of minutes
with you.
And I want to thank everybody for listening to Veterans Radio today.
I am Jim Fossone.
It's been a pleasure to be your host.
I'm a Veterans Disability Lawyer at Legal Help for Veterans.
And you can reach us at 800-693-4800 or legalhelpforveterans.com on the web.
You can follow Veterans Radio on Facebook and listen to its podcasts and internet radio
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