1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:15,920 All across America and around the world this is Veterans Radio. 2 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:17,840 Welcome to Veterans Radio. 3 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,520 I am Jim Fossone. 4 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:22,840 I'm the officer of the deck today. 5 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:24,720 We've got some great programs for you. 6 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,680 I think you'll find very interesting. 7 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:34,080 We always want to remind you, you can find more about Veterans Radio at its Facebook 8 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,760 site or at the web. 9 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,520 Veteransradio.org is our new URL. 10 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:43,640 Veteransradio.org. 11 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:48,840 Where we're on the web 24-7, you can find a lot of our podcasts there as well. 12 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,040 We post new ones every Tuesday. 13 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:57,560 So you can get a new story, a new interview, something you didn't know before by going 14 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,360 to Veteransradio.org. 15 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,360 Before we get started, we want to thank our sponsors. 16 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:13,820 First up, we want to thank National Veteran Business Development Council, NVBDC.org. 17 00:01:13,820 --> 00:01:19,520 It was established to certify both service-disabled and veteran-owned businesses. 18 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:26,040 You'll find out how they can help your business by going to NVBDC.org. 19 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,520 We want to thank Legal Help for Veterans. 20 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:35,040 Legal Help for Veterans fights for veterans' disability rights all across the nation. 21 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:45,720 You can reach them at 800-693-4800 or on the web at LegalHelpForVeterans.com. 22 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:50,640 We're talking today on Veterans Radio with Captain John P. Cordell, retired from the 23 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:55,800 U.S. Navy and Lieutenant Commander Reuben Keith Green, retired from the U.S. Navy as well. 24 00:01:55,800 --> 00:02:00,360 Both gentlemen, we've talked to a number of different times on important subjects, but 25 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:06,640 they recently wrote an article that focuses on a subject we've had some passing discussion 26 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:11,880 on but I want to have some more, which is the tragedy of the lost generation. 27 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:18,840 And that's about the lack of representation of minorities, African Americans, in the United 28 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,840 States Naval Academy. 29 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:29,480 Image wise, I think John, you were telling me that while the Navy overall has a 17 percent 30 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:35,720 black census, the Naval Academy only has about 6 percent. 31 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:36,720 Is that right? 32 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:37,720 Right. 33 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:44,920 I recently looked up their demographics of the class of 2024 and it's about 6.8 percent. 34 00:02:44,920 --> 00:02:48,720 Now the numbers get a little fuzzy because some people identify with multiple ethnic 35 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:49,720 groups. 36 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:58,600 Black, father was white, and as we were talking about the past with folks applying, General 37 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:03,720 Williams reminded me that hey, back in the day, if you had the option to not put black 38 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,600 when you knew that nobody could look you up on the internet or interview you in person, 39 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:09,040 you didn't put black, you put white. 40 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,720 And so the numbers may be skewed a little bit, but that's what they said, about 6.8 41 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:14,600 percent black. 42 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:20,840 And you referenced a book that I think we ought to give a little mention to, which is 43 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:27,640 Blue and Gold and Black, Racial Integration of the U.S. Naval Academy, by historian Robert 44 00:03:27,640 --> 00:03:28,640 Schneller. 45 00:03:28,640 --> 00:03:32,400 That's correct. 46 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:38,760 When I read your article and looked at his writing and it sort of, you know, when you 47 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:40,720 say it out loud it makes sense. 48 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:46,200 There are certainly states that his, because appointments are made by senators and congressmen 49 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:52,480 and women, there are certain areas of the country that have just avoided nominating 50 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:57,760 to the academies a diverse racial population. 51 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:05,240 Was this something that just was obvious and I just never thought about it? 52 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:06,240 Not at all. 53 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:11,800 The path to that was through actually the Navy History and Heritage Command, a friend 54 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:16,640 of ours named Denise Kremp, who actually advocated for the renaming of a base that was named 55 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:22,040 for one of her ancestors, because he was a confederate. 56 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:28,680 And she actually pointed me towards the Naval Academy archivist, who basically sent me a 57 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,440 database and we got permission to use it. 58 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:38,000 And essentially of all the nominations from all of the Naval Academy going back as far 59 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,200 as digital records, which was 1978. 60 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:46,040 And then we basically searched through that data and sorted by state and then we looked 61 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:51,040 at the demographics of the state and said, okay, all the demographics of the state, you 62 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:56,080 know, the percent Black population represented by the percent of nominations. 63 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:04,320 And when you sort those two columns, magically all 12 southern states percolate to the bottom 64 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:09,480 with the worst ratio, with Mississippi with the absolute worst ratio. 65 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:16,040 So no, it was not readily apparent and nobody else that I've talked to had even looked at 66 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,480 it. 67 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,800 So that was kind of mind boggling to discover. 68 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:28,120 And Keith, talk a little bit about why it's important that the academies, not just the 69 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:34,640 Naval, but we're focusing on the Naval Academy, that the military academies kind of reflect 70 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:41,800 our general population in terms of who gets into these prestigious positions. 71 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:48,760 Well, during the Vietnam War, the number one complaint of Black sailors was that they had 72 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:54,040 no Black officers to go to their, to share their concerns with. 73 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:58,600 And the Navy and Army took very different approaches on that. 74 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:04,220 The Army banned the Confederate flag in theater in the Vietnam War and powerful people like 75 00:06:04,220 --> 00:06:08,880 Mississippi Senator John C. Stennis pressured the Army to reverse that ban. 76 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:15,860 You had KKK rallies, cross burning, etc., etc. 77 00:06:15,860 --> 00:06:19,120 You would go into your commander's office and he'd have a big, giant Confederate flag 78 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:23,900 on the wall behind him sitting in his office in Vietnam. 79 00:06:23,900 --> 00:06:29,200 So because there were so few Black officers, Black people felt like they weren't getting, 80 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,500 they weren't being heard, they weren't being respected, and they weren't being treated 81 00:06:32,500 --> 00:06:33,500 fairly. 82 00:06:33,500 --> 00:06:36,240 And all of the statistics bear that out. 83 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,460 That's what we're to today. 84 00:06:38,460 --> 00:06:47,120 We've got all these claims of DEI hires and color over merit when they don't even understand 85 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:52,040 the history of how we got to the limited number of Black officers that exist right now. 86 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:56,760 It is important if you're going to have a diverse force that they have people that look 87 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:58,640 like them and represent them. 88 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:03,400 One of the biggest problems in the military justice system is that there are very few 89 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,920 Black judge-advocate general officers. 90 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:13,600 And many of the issues that are treated as disciplinary issues are actually cultural 91 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:15,960 and communications issues. 92 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:20,800 And when you've got someone that has racial bias and they are trying to communicate with 93 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:25,320 someone that is experiencing racial bias, you're setting yourself up for failure. 94 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:30,440 I don't want to see the military go back into a period where you're having this racial strife 95 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:36,280 because you've got a majority White leadership leading a very diverse force and they have 96 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:41,360 no skin in the game in terms of changing that dynamic. 97 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:46,920 But the Black people and the minorities, Jewish, Black, Hispanic, etc., they know what they're 98 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:48,920 experiencing on a day-to-day basis. 99 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:54,680 Yeah, I think it's one of those situations where if you, and I think the language you 100 00:07:54,680 --> 00:08:00,240 use, John, if you don't start out as an admiral, you've got to work your way up from being 101 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:01,240 an ensign. 102 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:07,280 You're not coming out of an academy with a bunch of ensigns who are in the minority classifications. 103 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:11,320 They're not going to, by attrition and everything else over 30 years, they're not going to be 104 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,240 there in the flag ranks, are they? 105 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:15,240 Right. 106 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:16,760 Yeah, that number never gets bigger, right? 107 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:23,040 It can only start where it starts and then start to work its way down as you would try. 108 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,480 And that's, you know, but back to Keith, you know, one of the big counterarguments that 109 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:32,480 I see, and there was a recent article in the Naval Institute making this argument that, 110 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:39,760 you know, we're sort of post-racism now and that we need to focus on meritocracy and that 111 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:42,320 the military should be a pure meritocracy. 112 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:48,240 And I fully agree that your advancement should be based on merit. 113 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:52,560 But one of the purposes, and Keith can probably articulate this better than I can, of affirmative 114 00:08:52,560 --> 00:08:57,680 action was to try to close that gap between opportunity, whether it was wealth opportunity, 115 00:08:57,680 --> 00:09:05,360 education opportunity, it was a racial gap, and at least give people who had not had those 116 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:10,240 opportunities a leg up so they could compete in a meritocracy on an equal basis. 117 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,800 But you can't have a meritocracy if I can't get in the door in the first place. 118 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:21,120 Well, and you point out from the statistics, it's sort of a quiet, we just won't make any 119 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:25,600 appointments or a limited number of appointments. 120 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,520 It's a very subtle and quiet bias. 121 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:31,160 Keith, react if you would. 122 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:38,800 Well, in addition to that, about a few years ago, I did an interview with Steve Walsh at 123 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:44,240 KPBS and the article was why there's so few black admirals in the US Navy. 124 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:50,240 And Admiral Sinclair Harris talked about the death valley phase of a black officer's career. 125 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:57,520 After about 10 or 12 years, when they've been fighting this perception of lack of qualification 126 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:02,600 and subtle racial discrimination and open racial discrimination, they finally decide 127 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,980 that they're just not willing to do it anymore and throw in the towel. 128 00:10:05,980 --> 00:10:11,040 And then those people are taken out of the selection pool, or some of the most motivated 129 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,920 people decide that I can't do this anymore. 130 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:18,080 I'm not going to do this anymore and go get a job in civilian community. 131 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:24,080 And then they get blamed for not being able to hack it or not willing to hack it when 132 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:28,080 they're competing against people that have not had in any way, shape or form to deal 133 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:29,320 with those issues. 134 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:35,880 I left the Navy at 22 years because I simply could not take the discrimination I was facing 135 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:41,040 from my commanding officer who asked me when I challenged him on why he was mistreating 136 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:42,040 me. 137 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,480 He asked, he smirked at me and said, do you feel like a second class citizen? 138 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:50,680 And he was completely protected by the people when I filed a five page discrimination complaint 139 00:10:50,680 --> 00:10:55,440 against him, a rock solid, thoroughly documented case. 140 00:10:55,440 --> 00:11:00,000 And he was protected and went on to abuse a ship full of people before he retired as 141 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:01,000 a Navy captain. 142 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:08,880 Well, we're having this discussion as it was about admissions to the academies in part 143 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:16,560 because the US Supreme Court in the last year struck down race conscious admissions at civilian 144 00:11:16,560 --> 00:11:25,960 schools and that raised a question of, well, can race or gender be used in a qualifying 145 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,160 applications to the academies? 146 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:34,800 And there are many groups who have are filing briefs and motions and saying, yeah, you've 147 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:41,520 got to be able to use these factors if we're going to have the right officer corps going 148 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:42,520 forward. 149 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:48,120 And I know earlier in the year, I spoke to the National Association of Black Women Veterans 150 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:57,000 and it was one of the major issues for that group that they were advocating for. 151 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:07,320 If this is not improved, do you see, John, based on the statistics you ran, are the southern 152 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:09,240 states going to continue what they're doing? 153 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,120 Can California make up the difference? 154 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:12,120 New York? 155 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:17,040 How does, how do the statistics tell you this will all work itself out? 156 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:23,000 Well, you know, when you draw two dots on the board, they lead to a line and you can 157 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:24,080 follow that line. 158 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:31,920 And so if you change, if you do away with the ability to at least consider race, you 159 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:33,480 know, the numbers aren't going to go up. 160 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,880 The other two things, points I would make, Jim, number one, no one records the number 161 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,300 of nominees who were not accepted. 162 00:12:41,300 --> 00:12:48,880 And so we don't even know how many applications there were by any sort of demographic means 163 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:52,760 and what percentage were rejected, whether it was white, black, Hispanic. 164 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:56,600 And you know, let me just give you an example of why this is important. 165 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:01,920 When the first black secretary of the army, Clifford Alexander, received a promotion list 166 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:07,200 for a, for one star general, there were no black people on the list and he rejected the 167 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:08,200 list. 168 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:12,740 He said, you can't tell me that there's not one black Colonel in the entire United States 169 00:13:12,740 --> 00:13:20,800 army that is not ready and, and capable of being promoted and has not earned it. 170 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:25,420 So he sent the list back and said, go back and look at your top black candidates. 171 00:13:25,420 --> 00:13:29,680 And when they returned the list to him, the name of Colin Powell had been added to that 172 00:13:29,680 --> 00:13:30,680 list. 173 00:13:30,680 --> 00:13:33,400 Colin Powell was preparing to retire as a Colonel. 174 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:34,840 His career was over. 175 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:39,080 And then all of a sudden he gets a new lease on life because the black secretary of the 176 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:43,000 army knew that they needed to have a more diversified army corps. 177 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:49,600 So imagine how many times that has happened since then, particularly in the Navy, where 178 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:55,160 these very highly qualified black people have been looked over because they're not part 179 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,400 of the same group as the rest of the people being considered. 180 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:00,400 It's a great example. 181 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:05,760 And as I think most people know, Colin Powell didn't go to the academy. 182 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,880 He got his commission through an ROTC scholarship. 183 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:14,440 Again, kind of highlights, he probably would never have gotten an appointment back in that 184 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:22,840 point in time, and we really need to encourage the representative grouping of folks who get 185 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:28,440 appointments to our academies to reflect the diversity of our country. 186 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,640 There certainly are folks who have plenty of skills for it. 187 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:37,360 But if you keep rejecting people, then at the same time, they're not going to apply. 188 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,880 They're going to go, as you're saying, Keith, hey, I don't have a shot at this. 189 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,320 Why am I even bothering, right? 190 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:44,760 That's correct. 191 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,400 Well it's an important issue, and it's one that folks certainly need to think about and 192 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:49,400 work on. 193 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:56,680 And hopefully our congressional and senatorial staffers who really do the grunt work in getting 194 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:02,280 academy appointments pulled together in the interviewing committees will approach this 195 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:12,160 with a little bit of 2024 insight and not exclude people because of their race, ethnicity, 196 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:13,160 gender. 197 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:17,960 Lieutenant Commander Ruben Keith Green, US Navy retired, as always, Keith, great to 198 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:19,560 talk to you. 199 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:21,720 Keep us informed as these things move forward. 200 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:26,520 And if the Veterans Radio audience can provide any assistance, please feel free to reach 201 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:27,520 out. 202 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,240 Thank you very much, Jim. 203 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,120 And I want to thank everybody for listening to Veterans Radio today. 204 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:34,680 I am Jim Fossone. 205 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,000 It's been a pleasure to be your host. 206 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,920 I'm a Veterans disability lawyer at Legal Help for Veterans. 207 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:49,320 And you can reach us at 800-693-4800 or legalhelpforveterans.com on the web. 208 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:54,240 You can follow Veterans Radio on Facebook and listen to its podcasts and internet radio 209 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:58,880 shows by visiting us at veteransradio.org. 210 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,580 That's veteransradio.org. 211 00:16:01,580 --> 00:16:04,440 And until next time, you are dismissed. 212 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:09,200 If you have a VA claim denied by the Board of Veterans Appeals, contact Legal Help for 213 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:13,440 Veterans at 1-800-693-4800. 214 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:17,480 They're experts in handling cases before the US Court of Appeals for Veterans claims. 215 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:21,400 Their number again, 1-800-693-4800. 216 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:27,040 We again want to thank our national sponsors, the National Veterans Business Development 217 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:36,240 Council, NVBDC.org, VA Ann Arbor Health Care System, the Vietnam Veterans of America, Charles 218 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:44,960 S. 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