1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:15,920 All across America and around the world this is Veterans Radio. 2 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:17,840 Welcome to Veterans Radio. 3 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,520 I am Jim Fossone. 4 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:22,840 I'm the officer of the deck today. 5 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:24,720 We've got some great programs for you. 6 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,680 I think you'll find very interesting. 7 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:34,080 We always want to remind you, you can find more about Veterans Radio at its Facebook 8 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,760 site or at the web. 9 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,520 Veteransradio.org is our new URL. 10 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:43,640 Veteransradio.org. 11 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:48,840 Where we're on the web 24-7, you can find a lot of our podcasts there as well. 12 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,040 We post new ones every Tuesday. 13 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:57,560 So you can get a new story, a new interview, something you didn't know before by going 14 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,360 to Veteransradio.org. 15 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,360 Before we get started, we want to thank our sponsors. 16 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:13,820 First up, we want to thank National Veteran Business Development Council, NVBDC.org. 17 00:01:13,820 --> 00:01:19,520 It was established to certify both service-disabled and veteran-owned businesses. 18 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:26,040 You'll find out how they can help your business by going to NVBDC.org. 19 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,520 We want to thank Legal Help for Veterans. 20 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:35,040 Legal Help for Veterans fights for veterans' disability rights all across the nation. 21 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:47,320 You can reach them at 800-693-4800 or on the web at LegalHelpForVeterans.com. 22 00:01:47,320 --> 00:01:51,920 We want to welcome back to Veterans Radio a couple of Navy gentlemen. 23 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:58,040 I'll use that term loosely because they're officer types that have spoken to us on different 24 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,880 subjects in the past and are willing to talk to us again. 25 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:06,520 So right there, hey, first we've got Captain John B. Cordell. 26 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:09,720 John, welcome back to Veterans Radio. 27 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,480 Hey, thank you very much, John. 28 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:13,480 Thanks for having me. 29 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:14,480 I really appreciate it. 30 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:20,720 And we also have Lieutenant Commander Reuben Keith Green, both gentlemen retired. 31 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,440 Keith, welcome back to Veterans Radio. 32 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,920 Jim, thank you for having us, and it's a pleasure. 33 00:02:26,920 --> 00:02:32,960 Well, as I say, officers and gentlemen here, according to Congress. 34 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:39,160 But we've got a very serious subject to talk about today, and both of you have been thinking 35 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:47,720 and writing and talking about this for a number of years, but recently had an article, The 36 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:54,560 Tragedy of the Lost Generation, in a US&I proceedings in August of 2024. 37 00:02:54,560 --> 00:03:02,160 It's volume 150, slash 8, slash 1458, for those keeping score at home. 38 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:09,520 That sort of focuses on the whole issue of renaming, the Navy renaming ships, and in 39 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:14,320 particular why it hasn't yet renamed the USS John Stennis. 40 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:20,040 Keith, why don't you start with this, tell us what the Stennis is. 41 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:26,560 Well, the USS John Stennis is an aircraft carrier named for Mississippi Senator John 42 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:31,080 Stennis, who is an arch segregationist, racist. 43 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:36,640 He's considered the father of the modern Navy, but the Navy's biography leaves out all of 44 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:47,800 his anti-civil rights and racist behaviors that he perpetrated for his entire adult life. 45 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:54,720 And the Stennis has been, when did it get put into service? 46 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:58,040 I believe it was 92, don't quote me on that. 47 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:06,000 Reagan nominated Stennis as the, I think it was 95, but Reagan nominated the ship in 1989 48 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:10,640 just before he left office and shorted the course, Stennis retired. 49 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:17,200 And this is an aircraft carrier for those non-naval types who are listening in here 50 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:18,320 on Veterans Radio. 51 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:24,040 We're talking to Lieutenant Commander Keith Green and Captain John Cordell. 52 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:29,720 Keith, explain to folks how big an aircraft carrier is and how many people are on it when 53 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:30,720 it's active. 54 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:36,680 Well, I'm going to pass that to John since Keith's actually a nuclear surface engineer 55 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,880 who has some time on that platform. 56 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,680 Oh, thanks, Keith. 57 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:45,360 So I have a surface nuke officer. 58 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,720 So I've served on actually pre-commissioned two carriers, the Harry Truman and the George 59 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:49,720 Bush. 60 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,400 And we'll come back to the names and why they matter. 61 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:59,360 But aircraft carrier is, sorry, that was me. 62 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:05,560 So aircraft carrier, Jim, is basically the largest ship in the world. 63 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:09,360 It's a thousand feet long, roughly like three football fields. 64 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:14,840 It carries about 75 aircraft of different types from jets to helicopters to vertical 65 00:05:14,840 --> 00:05:15,840 takeoff. 66 00:05:15,840 --> 00:05:22,720 And it has a core crew of about 3,000 and it adds about 1,500 of aviation folks and 67 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:23,720 others. 68 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:31,840 It's a carrier around nuclear power with about 4,000 to 5,000 sailors on board. 69 00:05:31,840 --> 00:05:39,000 Yeah, that's what I wanted to get across is how big it is and how many men and women are 70 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:43,040 living on it when it's out cruising around the world. 71 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:49,180 It is currently, as I understand it, being retrofitted, updated. 72 00:05:49,180 --> 00:05:53,360 And when it gets done with that, it'll have another life of what, 25 or 30 years in the 73 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:54,360 fleet? 74 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:56,200 Yep, that's exactly right. 75 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,320 The nuclear plants of those ships are good for about 25 years. 76 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:05,040 And so typically, because refueling takes about three to five years, there's only time 77 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:06,800 for one. 78 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:08,880 And so they last about 50 years total. 79 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:15,480 Yeah, so the issue of the name on this ship isn't something that's going to go away tomorrow. 80 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:23,040 It's going to be the name of this ship's going to continue to live on for another couple 81 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:24,840 of two to three decades. 82 00:06:24,840 --> 00:06:33,560 So it's worth talking about the name Stennis, who he was. 83 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:37,560 But let's put this in a little context, too. 84 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:46,840 The military, DOD, the Navy has gone through in the last few years looking at its bases, 85 00:06:46,840 --> 00:06:56,880 its ships, its buildings, its monuments, all of those things that were named after Confederate 86 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:02,120 generals primarily, and said, you know what, that's not right anymore. 87 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,920 That's not the image we want anymore. 88 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:11,720 And the Navy did do some of that work over the last couple of years, didn't it, John? 89 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:12,720 They did. 90 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,720 Yes, the Naming Commission was put together with some retired admirals, and they looked 91 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:16,720 at that. 92 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:22,280 And now, you know, Keith may know better than I do, but a couple things about that commission, 93 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,400 they were very much focused on, you know, the Confederacy. 94 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:33,500 So it was battles like Chancellorsville and memorializing, you know, the rebel forces 95 00:07:33,500 --> 00:07:37,800 of the Confederacy that they wanted to get at. 96 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:43,960 And so, you know, the Stennis was sort of at one level outside of that bubble. 97 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:47,080 But when you start to look at it, you know, we could talk more about this, but, you know, 98 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:51,520 one of his legacies was that he was very much a supporter of many of the things that the 99 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:53,720 Confederacy stood for. 100 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:59,200 And I think, you know, the record will show that he was pretty dedicated to making sure 101 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:03,440 that those types of things lived on, segregation being the large one. 102 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:08,340 Well that's why you sort of have to set this up to understand this discussion of the need 103 00:08:08,340 --> 00:08:13,920 to change the name with, hey, we've just gone through this for this limited period of the 104 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:15,320 Confederacy. 105 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:22,200 And according to an article by Steve Walsh, the Navy renamed something like 33 ships, 106 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:26,520 buildings, and streets as a result of that commission work. 107 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:32,200 And so that does kind of set up like, okay, we recognize this is a problem and we're changing 108 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:33,560 it. 109 00:08:33,560 --> 00:08:40,120 So now let's talk about Stennis, which is, you say, is just outside the bubble, but really 110 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:41,880 pretty associated with it. 111 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:49,360 I'll throw it to either of you to talk about who this Senator was that, you know, died 112 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:54,920 many years ago and many of us won't even remember him when he was alive, but talk about his 113 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:55,920 legacy. 114 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,600 Okay, I'll take that. 115 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:04,440 I first learned who John Stennis was when I read Admiral Zumwalt's memoir on watch in 116 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:05,840 1976. 117 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:12,280 I was an 18 year old, 19 year old seaman, and he had three chapters and one of the chapters 118 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,240 in his book was sailing second class. 119 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:20,840 And John C Stennis is the man who ordered the Navy's subcommittee hearings on permissiveness 120 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:28,800 in the Navy after the so-called race riots in the 1970s, early 72, 73. 121 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:34,600 And he stacked it with Louisiana Congressman Eddie Hebert, who was also a signer of the 122 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:36,640 Southern Manifesto. 123 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:42,080 And he was adamant that Zumwalt was being too permissive and not punishing those black 124 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:43,080 sailors. 125 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:47,360 When the truth eventually came out 50 years later, those black solar sailors had been 126 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:53,600 victims of racial discrimination for years, including during the court martial process. 127 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:57,140 So Stennis has been on my radar for a long time. 128 00:09:57,140 --> 00:10:01,640 I was busy being a chief engineer when Reagan made the announcement of the ship and I had 129 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:05,440 bigger problems to worry about than what the next aircraft carrier's name was going to 130 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:06,440 be. 131 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:10,720 But as I started working on writing my first memoir, Black Officer, White Navy, I dug back 132 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:16,000 into who Stennis was and the more I learned, the more appalled I got. 133 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:20,200 And then when John read my first book, he picked up on that. 134 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:25,200 And since then, we've been writing articles and trying to get the Navy to change the name 135 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:29,400 of this ship because John Stennis was born in 1901. 136 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:35,040 He was 18 years old when the Navy banned the enlistment of black sailors. 137 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:41,480 President Woodrow Wilson and Secretary of the Navy Josephus Daniels were in total, Stennis 138 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:46,480 would have been in total agreement with their efforts to curtail any opportunities for black 139 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:50,420 sailors, including banning the first enlistment of black sailors. 140 00:10:50,420 --> 00:10:55,320 So Stennis knew men, knew and venerated men who had served in the Confederacy. 141 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:59,440 He was young enough to have known grown men that actually fought in the Confederacy. 142 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:04,160 But he's the biggest booster of the Confederacy in modern time. 143 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:08,680 And to have a ship sailing around named for a man who did so much damage and continues 144 00:11:08,680 --> 00:11:16,080 to do so much damage, it's really to me, it's a moral injury, it's psychological abuse 145 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:21,560 to send thousands and thousands of black and other diverse sailors to be served on a ship 146 00:11:21,560 --> 00:11:23,800 named for somebody like that. 147 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:25,880 Well let's be clear about this. 148 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,840 The historical record is clear. 149 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:34,880 This isn't your opinion, Keith, about Stennis' views on race relations. 150 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:42,760 He's got all kinds of documents that he's put his name to that are in archives all over 151 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,720 the place, which makes it clear. 152 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:51,800 For example, I read in the Tragedy of the Lost Generation that when President Harry 153 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:57,760 Truman integrated the armed forces in 1948 by executive orders, Stennis, he didn't like 154 00:11:57,760 --> 00:11:58,760 it. 155 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:02,040 He told everybody he didn't like it, didn't he, Captain? 156 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:03,040 Right. 157 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:08,280 And going even further, so to your point, a lot of times I start with Wikipedia. 158 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:12,320 And so I hit Wikipedia for Stennis and the first thing that pops up is Senator, Father 159 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:13,320 of the Modern Navy. 160 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:19,160 Then you kind of flip to page two and that's where the article about his segregationist 161 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:20,160 policies goes in. 162 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:24,480 He voted against the Civil Rights Act, he voted against Martin Luther King's birthday, 163 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:25,920 he voted against the Voting Act. 164 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:33,320 So his goal was to keep people separate based on race, which is the definition of segregation. 165 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,280 And then when you click on segregation, it leads you right to the definition of racism. 166 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:42,680 And so in that Wikipedia, it talks about how in his young life as a prosecutor, he prosecuted 167 00:12:42,680 --> 00:12:47,800 I believe it was four black men who had a confession to murder, or made them murder, 168 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:48,800 basically beaten out of them. 169 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:55,160 And it even describes in pretty graphic detail being simulated hangings, being thrashed with 170 00:12:55,160 --> 00:13:01,080 belts, and all this was on the record of the trial that he led the prosecution of these 171 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,580 people that was eventually overturned by the Supreme Court. 172 00:13:04,580 --> 00:13:05,720 So that was pretty clear. 173 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,280 And then you follow his political career. 174 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:13,640 And then based on Keith's sort of clues, I went back to the University of Mississippi 175 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:16,280 has an entire dossier on him. 176 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:21,760 And that's where I found the letter that was it was printed in the magazine of, hey, I 177 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:22,760 agree with the letter. 178 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:29,000 What the letter said was, I agree with you, the boys should serve in all white units. 179 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:30,000 Stennis was pretty savvy. 180 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:36,280 He didn't put the racial epithets and the controversial language in his replies to letters. 181 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,160 He let the letters stand and endorsed them. 182 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:44,480 And so if I couldn't print that letter because of the words used in it to describe black 183 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:50,000 people, Jews and Italians and others, but suffice it to say that what he would in that 184 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:56,560 letter address Truman's mongrelization of the armed forces. 185 00:13:56,560 --> 00:14:01,160 And the problem that he was fighting against was the problem of black soldiers and black 186 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:02,440 sailors. 187 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,160 And that's what Stennis was agreeing with in that letter. 188 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:10,560 Yeah, he's responding to a constituent and saying, I agree with you 100%. 189 00:14:10,560 --> 00:14:11,560 Right. 190 00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:16,160 And in my years of service here, I have constantly and continually stressed the very point you 191 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:20,200 mentioned that our boys should have the chance to serve in all white units. 192 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,680 And this is 1955 when he's writing to the constituents. 193 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:24,680 Right. 194 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:25,680 I'm sorry, Keith. 195 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:30,560 No, go ahead, John. 196 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:34,720 So the next thing that, and this was a complete coincidence, as a Naval Academy graduate, 197 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,080 I get this quarterly magazine called Shipmate. 198 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:42,560 And I happened to know Admiral Stravidis referred with him in the past and he was a distinguished 199 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:46,960 graduate and so they have a little biography and then they had five of them. 200 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:51,800 And one of them was Brigadier General retired Leo Williams, the third Marine. 201 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:56,120 And buried in his bio was a quote that said, everybody knew that a man of my color could 202 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,160 never get a nomination from a Southern state. 203 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:02,080 So I had to move to get to the Naval Academy. 204 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:07,480 And between him and Keith, I found a book called Blue, Gold and Black, talking about 205 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:08,880 the integration of the Naval Academy. 206 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:15,960 And I reached out to the author who was in touch with the general, who pretty much confirmed 207 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:22,000 what we had sort of inferred from that document is that there was a movement, a handshake 208 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:25,440 amongst the Southern congressmen and senators. 209 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,840 And the nomination process to the Naval Academy is very, it's run by politicians. 210 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:34,040 And so without writing anything down, they were able to have a handshake to make sure 211 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:40,040 that no black candidates got through that process for decades. 212 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:46,640 And so that really to me was like the next piece of, the next layer to peel back of wow, 213 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:51,120 not only did he have beliefs, but as Keith talks about, my beliefs drive my actions, 214 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:57,440 he had tangible actions that he took to prevent black Americans from serving their country. 215 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:03,080 So let's go to, I said it a minute ago, I don't think there's really any question about 216 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,160 his segregationist and racist beliefs. 217 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:11,480 So let's go to what's the impediment for the Navy to change the name? 218 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,360 Who's got to make that decision? 219 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:15,380 Why hasn't that decision been made? 220 00:16:15,380 --> 00:16:18,760 You guys have been talking and writing on this for years. 221 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,760 What feedback do you get from the Naval community? 222 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:28,120 Okay, Keith, quit laughing, Keith, and answer the question. 223 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:30,440 Well, that was John laughing. 224 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:31,980 I was grinning my teeth. 225 00:16:31,980 --> 00:16:37,760 So far the Navy, when my first article came out, the case for renaming the USS John C. 226 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:42,840 Stennis, there was a flurry of activity in the press, people questioning this and so 227 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:43,840 forth. 228 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,760 And when the Navy was asked about it, they said they had no comment at this time. 229 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:54,880 And they forwarded that article to the Congress, the Congressional Research Service, the Navy 230 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:59,240 forwarded that saying that people were talking about the need for renaming the ship. 231 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,760 But from that day to this, there's been no official comment. 232 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:07,720 The Secretary of the Navy can make that change with a stroke of a pen, as far as I understand. 233 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:09,440 And they don't have to appropriate any money. 234 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:13,800 They can get money out of the couch cushions to do that. 235 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,800 But it's a lot of pushback. 236 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:23,160 I suspect that there's been no public discussions about it. 237 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,140 So I don't really know what's going to happen. 238 00:17:25,140 --> 00:17:31,480 So how in the world has there not been a congressional hearing on this issue? 239 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:38,120 John, did you get different pushback or different feedback from the naval community on this? 240 00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:44,600 So I have a lot of retired and active duty friends that are pretty high up in the Navy. 241 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:50,280 And the sort of feedback I get is, hey, there's bigger fish to fry. 242 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,600 This is not that important. 243 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,320 We have other things to worry about. 244 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,880 Number two, most of them just don't know. 245 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:57,880 That's what I get a lot of. 246 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:03,480 And back to your point, we talked about that before we started recording the moveon.org. 247 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,560 When you ask a sailor about John C. Stennis, most of them say, oh, he's the father of the 248 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:08,560 Navy. 249 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:09,560 There's a carrier name after him. 250 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,160 They haven't turned to page two of Wikipedia to find out. 251 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:16,280 And that applies to seaman and it applies to flag officers. 252 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:20,680 What prompted me to write this article with Keith and to collaborate with Keith and write 253 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:26,200 this article was two sailors that approached us on the John C. Stennis who are stationed 254 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:31,080 there after we spoke at one of the, I think it was ANZO, American Naval Service Officers 255 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:32,080 Symposium. 256 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:39,080 They said, you know, we talk about this a lot, but basically what we're told is it's 257 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:40,080 not your issue. 258 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:41,080 Right. 259 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:46,560 And then we put the article, we have black sailors who felt like it was a slap in the 260 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,600 face when they walked across the border deck. 261 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:52,240 A black pilot who said it was a gut punch to land on the carrier. 262 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,320 And so they're active duty sailors. 263 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:59,520 But you know, one of my favorite quotes in a different context was a young chief said, 264 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:04,600 you know, it's when the organization you work for is discriminating against you, it's not 265 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,120 in your best interest to point that out. 266 00:19:07,120 --> 00:19:12,040 And one of the things I've learned in my 40 years, especially with the Navy is when you're 267 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:16,280 at the top of the Navy or the top of leadership positions, you have the option to do nothing 268 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:17,280 and say nothing. 269 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:22,360 And eventually most things will just go away. 270 00:19:22,360 --> 00:19:27,120 And so that it seems to be the option that's being taken. 271 00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:33,320 Well the problem I have with the do nothing is something like 17% of the Navy are African 272 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:35,480 Americans. 273 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:37,440 You know, it is a slap in the face. 274 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,320 And we as veterans want to be proud of our service. 275 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:42,320 Right. 276 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:47,320 And you know, you can go into any store or down any street, any parade, and you're going 277 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:52,240 to see guys wearing, gals wearing ball caps and t-shirts with the name of the vessel. 278 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,280 They served on or the airborne unit they were with what have you. 279 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:03,960 I mean you're not wearing the John C. Stennis cap out in public, is it? 280 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,520 We had sailors tell us they refused to wear it out in public. 281 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:08,120 They won't wear the shirt home. 282 00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:10,040 But you mentioned the number, 17%. 283 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,320 You know what the percent of black Naval Academy midshipmen is? 284 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:15,360 I don't. 285 00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:16,360 Six. 286 00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:17,480 Six. 287 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,120 So we're going to get to that issue in a minute. 288 00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:23,040 I want to talk about that. 289 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:28,920 But I want to go back to how does the general public, you guys are busy educating the Naval 290 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,560 community that this isn't right. 291 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,760 You got to know the history of this man. 292 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:38,800 And when you do, you won't want the ship named for him or continue to be named for him. 293 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:44,680 How do you get the general public involved telling the secretary of the Navy, hey, don't 294 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:45,680 be silent. 295 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:47,880 Now's the time to do something. 296 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:49,440 Well I have an opinion on that. 297 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:54,440 I don't think the Navy gives a hoot what the general public thinks about that. 298 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,040 What they care about is what Congress is interested in. 299 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:02,160 And if you can get Congress interested in this topic, they will. 300 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:06,720 The Navy has ignored the general public and the press, but they will not ignore an inquiry 301 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:15,840 from Congress on why you stepped over an alligator to kill two frogs by renaming ships of people 302 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:17,400 that have been long dead. 303 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:23,160 And Stennis was alive when I was fighting discrimination as an officer in the Navy. 304 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:28,800 And there are going to be many thousands of minority sailors and white sailors that will 305 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,400 serve on that ship in the next 25 years. 306 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:36,800 And the longer the Navy delays this, the longer the more contentious the issue is going to 307 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:37,800 be. 308 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:42,160 And it's up to Congress to step in and protect the people that volunteer to serve in our 309 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,520 military from this sort of moral abuse. 310 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:52,440 Keith, is there a particular congressman or woman who is maybe near and dear to this issue? 311 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:59,160 Is there somebody or some committee in general that needs to hear from people about this 312 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:00,160 matters? 313 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:12,000 Well, Mississippi Senator Benny Thompson would be the obvious choice to spearhead this thing. 314 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:17,720 And not only that, the Congressional Black Caucus, there was a huge outcry when the young 315 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,760 airman was killed in his apartment. 316 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:26,680 There was a huge outcry and you had these prominent people attending his funeral, but 317 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:32,120 not one word from these people about sailors that are experiencing this sort of, I call 318 00:22:32,120 --> 00:22:36,200 it discrimination and psychological abuse on an everyday basis. 319 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:44,200 So you need to get, I think Benny Thompson has the moral authority to address this issue. 320 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:45,800 Well, we want to- 321 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,320 And one thing that Keith and I are working on now that these letters are out there and 322 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:56,280 these articles is a bit of a letter writing campaign to some key congressmen and senators, 323 00:22:56,280 --> 00:23:02,840 other Navy leadership and things like that, that might educate them. 324 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:07,040 Because like I said, the average person just doesn't know. 325 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:11,000 And then when you confront them with it, it's kind of like if you took a poll, there's a 326 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:16,840 good chunk of the country that feels like that racism is not an issue. 327 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,240 And so it's tough to even bring a topic like this up. 328 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:24,680 And back to my point about the 6% of the Naval Academy, remember you don't grow avarles that 329 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:25,760 weren't incense. 330 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:31,360 And so if you start at 6%, look at the percentage of black flag officers. 331 00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:34,880 I think it's down in like the one or two. 332 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:45,840 And one of our mentors had a comment that says, for something to change, there has to 333 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,760 be empathy from the unimpacted. 334 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:55,760 And if I'm a white senior person, this doesn't impact me. 335 00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:01,840 And for me to feel compelled to make a change, I have to really inject empathy into that 336 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,960 18-year-old black sailor. 337 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,400 And I don't have a lot of evidence of that happening. 338 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:13,000 Well, we had talked earlier too about whether or not there was a change.org petition that 339 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,360 the general public could sign. 340 00:24:14,360 --> 00:24:15,560 I think you told me there is. 341 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:20,440 You can go to change.org and look for a petition called Renaming the Stennis. 342 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:25,840 It hasn't grabbed a lot of the general public yet, but maybe it will. 343 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:31,840 Keith, do you think it has any prospect of having an impact on the congressmen or the 344 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,920 Congressional Black Caucus, or does it need a whole different type of effort? 345 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,160 I think you need a whole different type of effort. 346 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,640 I signed the petition quite some time ago. 347 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,440 The last time I checked, there weren't very many signatures on it. 348 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,600 But the Navy does not respond to outside pressure. 349 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,840 The military does not respond to outside pressure. 350 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:57,240 All of these issues with sexual harassment, discrimination, etc., have been ongoing for 351 00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:58,400 decades. 352 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:07,280 And the Navy only responds when the people that control the purse strings have a say. 353 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:13,920 Well let's hope that some more momentum from Congress builds on renaming the John C. Stennis 354 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:20,600 before it serves another 25, 30 years and that this is just not the right name for this 355 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:21,800 aircraft carrier. 356 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:27,160 I certainly appreciate both of you, and that would be Captain John Cordell and Lieutenant 357 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:33,120 Commander Keith Green, both retired from the U.S. Navy, talking about the Stennis issue. 358 00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:36,040 And I want to thank everybody for listening to Veterans Radio today. 359 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:37,400 I am Jim Fossone. 360 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,880 It's been a pleasure to be your host. 361 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:44,680 I'm a Veterans Disability Lawyer at Legal Help for Veterans, and you can reach us at 362 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:52,240 800-693-4800 or legalhelpforveterans.com on the web. 363 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:57,160 You can follow Veterans Radio on Facebook and listen to its podcasts and Internet radio 364 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,760 shows by visiting us at veteransradio.org. 365 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,480 That's veteransradio.org. 366 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,400 And until next time, you are dismissed. 367 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:12,120 If you have a VA claim denied by the Board of Veterans' Appeals, contact Legal Help for 368 00:26:12,120 --> 00:26:16,360 Veterans at 1-800-693-4800. 369 00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:20,400 They're experts in handling cases before the U.S. Court of Appeals for Veterans' Claims. 370 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,320 Their number again, 1-800-693-4800. 371 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:29,920 We again want to thank our national sponsors, the National Veterans Business Development 372 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:39,080 Council, NVBDC.org, VA Ann Arbor Health Care System, the Vietnam Veterans of America Charles 373 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:47,880 S. 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